I'll Bite My Nose...as long as it Spites my Neigbor's Face MORE than it Spites MINE.
That's what I take from a couple of articles written by social democrats that I've read over the weekend. The pronounced and unmistakable willingness of some to justify having less as long as long as the better off have EVEN less in relation to the worse off is indeed troubling to me. The mental gymnastics that I see these people put themselves through with the full knowledge and implications of their wishes known to them is indeed cause for pause. And at the same time, such rigorous mental exercises from these people ignore such fundamental caveats in their logic...caveats that they would surly consider if their agenda worked in reverse. I discovered the first article via Will Wilkinson
. He links to and discusses an article by Lane Kenworthy on inequality. Reaction from Matt Yglesias is also linked. The Gist of Kenworthy's article: Reducing inequality requires more than just very progressive taxes. It needs heavy transfers of wealth. In fact, progressive taxes do little to reduce inequality with heavy transfers. But even the heaviest of progressive income taxes is not enough to fund these transfers. Basically, we need a consumption tax to generate the shortfall since we cannot get that money from simply overtaxing the wealthy. There simply aren't rich people to tax. He shows charts that compare the U.S. to other Western nations to demonstrate how transfers is the key and that takes a lot more money than a tax hike on the rich can produce. In short, we need a regressive consumption tax to fill the gap. It's what western european nations do and it fills the coffers with enough money to fulfill this aim of lowering inequality....other side-effects be damned. Says Will of Yglesias's commentary on the matter:
So Yglesias is right (though he doesn’t quite put it this way). Democratic strategists need to be looking at clever ways for the government to take a lot more money away from middle-class families without thereby making the GOP look golden again.
What a conundrum. The very people Kenworthy wants to help need to be the main target of these new taxes. But that's OK for Kenworthy....as long as it lowers inequality. Me, I think Kenworthy ignores the demographic make-up of most of his shining examples of equality. He ignores also the size of most of these nations. He also seems to ignore state and local taxes in his totals for the U.S. total. See here . The U.S. is more in the range 32-35%. In summary, I think Kenworthy is far too willing to hurt everyone in the name of inequality. Kenworthy should think about ways to get rid of government spending to make room for his grand spending ideas of lowering inequality...just as long as he doesn't complain about the problems of lower standards of living for the people who suddenly see the top of the pyramid a little closer to them. Yippie. Now what? Ezra Klein is next
. Says Klein:
Robert Frank explains this well in his book Falling Behind: How Rising Inequality Harms the Middle Class, but a nice way to think about it is through housing: Would you rather live in a land where you had a 4,000-square-foot house and everyone else had a 6,000-square-foot house, or one in which you had a 3,000-square-foot house and everyone else had a 2,000-square-foot house? Given this choice, studies show that most respondents pick the latter. They'd rather have less home in absolute terms if it means more home in relative terms. That makes housing a positional good. Being concerned with one's relative position rather than one's absolute position is not irrational or merely motivated by envy. In order to retain your relative standard of living, you need to keep up with the purchases of others in your income bracket.
Funny, some people are vain. Thanks, Ezra. Besides, I question how scientific that finding is. Either way, should that be the basis of policy? Should it really matter? I think not. And yes, Ezra: It IS envy...plain and simple. Stop kidding yourself into whitewashing your emotions. Basically Erza and Robert Frank are saying people are justified in feeling this way and that tells that us that we should do something about inequality in goods. It's just "positional" after all. What good is a 4000 sq. ft. home when everyone's is 6000 sq. ft.?? 'Tis better to have a 3000 sq. ft. home and know that everyone else has a 2000 sq. ft. Really Rich, Ezra. So, I wonder what that says for the people in the 2000 sq. ft. homes. Hmmmm. I see another war. Brad at The Liberty Papers had some words for Ezra on this matter. After channeling some timeless Hayek and pointing out that YES...it is indeed envy, he applies that logic to taxes:
Well, let’s say I work for a living and make the median household income of $50,000/year. I work hard, and every paycheck I see money taken out of my paycheck for taxes — for the sake of argument, $10,000/year. My neighbor, on the other hand, is working very hard at a higher-paying job, making $100,000/year, but is paying the same flat tax rate of 20%, thus $20,000/year. If Ezra Klein is right about the rationality of positional goods, it makes perfect sense for me to be happy if my taxes are raised to $20,000/year (40%), as long as my neighbor’s taxes are raised to $50,000/year (50%). In what bizarro world should it be rational that I be happier to give up $10,000/year more to the government if I simply think that those making more that me are getting soaked even worse?
Hmmm. If Ezra's right, Lane Kenworthy has nothing to worry about in his pursuit for more equality via the decreased wealth of everyone. Everyone will like it as long as the better off get soaked even more. Is this what the goal is? Is this what we really want? For everyone to have less as long as the wealthiest have lose more than we do? That makes life better? How "liberal". Not.
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Comments :
I disagree with your interpretation of the egalitarians
First, I couldn't read the stuff at Klein's blog, so this is all written without the benefit of seeing his argument first hand.
I think that most of the writers (Klein excluded) are focused on figuring out how the government can fund programs that help the poor -- not the middle class. They seem to infer that the poor simply don't have a great enough income for the tax structure to make much of a difference (though the US does have a greater reduction of inequality via progressive taxation than the other countries--suggesting that they aren't even trying). To get around that problem, they seek to effectively supplement the income of the poor by providing services and/or direct payments. To pay for these expenditures, they need a source of revenue. They see that it is impossible to raise enough money from the rich, so they turn to a tax system that will draw from the middle-class, and even the poor.
However, even if the poor are paying a substantial portion of their income in taxes, they will be better off (or say the Social Dems) because the value of services provided (education, healthcare, etc.) is much greater than what the poor have to pay in taxes.
Your accusation of "spite" seems to be based on the presumption that all of this wealth will simply be destroyed once it is collected as taxes. One of the authors went to some lengths to argue that we can have higher taxes without harming economic growth. Regardless, I think it is safe to say that these authors do not expect there to be much waste in these programs.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
try here:
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=02&year=2009&...
OK. It's not working. The link works through the Liberty Papers links for some reason. Try there.
Not really, Adam
Spite" was used to play off the famous cliche. The idea is not that the wealth is necessarily destroyed but rather that these benevolent and thought yet myopic people need to burden some of the people they wish to help with more taxes....all in the name equality.
And no, they are not arguing anywhere about increasing taxes without harming growth. I'm sure it's a concern but that's about all.
tax rates and growth
This is from the Leonhardt
article that Yeglesia linked to in his first sentenct:
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
evasive
OK. So Leonhardt said something to that effect. But there's quite a bit of gray between "not harming growth" and being "economically ruinous".
Harming growth can happen even with increases in growth. Instead of growing at about 3-5%, it grows at 1-2%. But it's not ruinous though still harming growth.
And when I say "evasive", I'm referring to Leonhardt's argumentation. He is not being very through or intellectually honest when he looks at the 50s and 60s and then points to one factor like high marginal tax rates and then says basically: "See? It's all good!"
So many things were different in those times that it's a book unto itself. Seriously. Regardless of policies and tax rates, the 50s and 60s economies and their circumstances were totally different. It's not as simple as Leonhardt would like to think to draw such anecdotes and think they mean as much as he would like.
Look here:
http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/#usgs302
In 1950, total (state and Fed) tax burden was 22.7% of GDP.
in 1955, it was 27% of GDP
In 1960 it was 30.5% of GDP
In 1963, it was 30.9%
In 1965, it was back down to 28.2%
In 1969, it was
And that's not even looking at spending. And it certainly, like I said, isn't even considering so factors unique to the period. However, one thing is clear: The total tax burden was a little less on average than average than now. If you look at the last 15-20 years or whatever you like, you'll see that total taxes are generally a higher share of GDP. So, when looking at something as specific and myopic at the top marginal tax rate as anecdote, he's ignoring everything else and failing to consider quite a bit because even though top rates were higher, total burden was almost always much less.
The dot-com tech bubble surge is always a unique stretch. Let's be honest here. And, tax rates were only slightly different than now.
Still, none of that goes to the point of what we're talking about on Kenworthy article: He wants to put a regressive consumption tax on everyone to pay for more wealth transfers.
Maybe you should
use the years
1929
1930
1931
1932
1933
I'm only half stupid
For what purpose
given the context of the discussion?
Draw your own
conclusions.
I'm only half stupid
No.
You brought it up.
In light of the discussion and why those tax totals were even mentioned, you tell me.
burdening the poor
I think the idea is that the benefits that they recieve will be greater than the tax burden that they bear.
It's a classic public goods argument -- pay a little to get a lot.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
Yes. I am aware of the logic
I simply don't think people like this Kenworthy give full due attention to what they are setting up.
He simply says that levying a 5% consumption tax on everyone....let's not forget the compound effects of that up and down the supply chain....will yield enough money to transfer more wealth and improve inequality.
I simply see a lot of changes in how the economy operates taking place along the way in terms of purchasing power and opportunity and job growth...especially in the private sector.
Besides...and without forgetting the mind-boggling knots of thoughts produced from trying accurately comprehend and judge what would change with such an increase in taxes at the consumption level... aside from national health care, what are we really missing compared to those other countries in terms of public services that we couldn't make room for in the budget....assuming it was even a great idea?
a utilitiarian case for equality
Based on what you reported of Klein's writing, his discussion of envy doesn't seem to be very applicable to the issue of inequality, except to say that people do care about status. To make a solid utilitarian case for equality, he would have to argue that the benefit of being "at the top" is less than the detriment of being "at the bottom"--this is basically the Rawlsian argument that if we were designing the status structure of society without knowing our place in it, we would opt for an egalitarian society in order to minimize the chance that we would get a very bad position in life. I think this is called the MaxMin solution, and is consistent with the notion of diminishing returns for consumption.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
This does not imply positional valuation
I would pick the latter, too, and it has nothing to do with vanity or having a better house than everyone else. In fact, I would choose having one of the 2,000 sq. ft. houses in the second scenario, over anything in the first scenario. There would be a heck of a lot more open space in the latter scenario. A 6,000 foot square house is obscene, as far as I am concerned, unless maybe you are a family of 12 or something. I would hate to live in a land where everyone had such a monstrosity.
Whether you agree with this or not, the very fact that someone like me exists throws into question your interpretation of what the results of that survey mean.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Robert used this example
to make a case for the very interpretation I'm talking about.
I'm not sure I follow
How can you use that example to make a case for your interpretation? Are you saying that such a choice is based on spite and envy? You'll have to explain that to me.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
I'm saying Robert used this in his book on inequality
I doubt it had anything to do with conserving space when he used it.
And I am saying that your analysis is wrong.
No, it's not. Klein is wrong, too. It's not evidence of positional valuation, either. And Liberty Papers Brad is also wrong. ("I’d definitely call it irrational and motivated by envy.")
All of you are just coming up with one reason why people would make a certain choice, and since that is the first thing you thought of, assuming that everyone who makes that choice is doing it for your reason. You're all wrong, the lot of ya! :P
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
OK, SL
You say it's wrong. I disagree. There's really nothing to settle to the matter.
Your point however goes in another direction and is a bit different than everyone else's because you make totally different assumptions about the choices than anyone else.
You say they pick a 3000 sf home over 2000 sf home instead of a 4000 sf over a 6000sf because they wish to conserve space. That's interesting. I disagree but it's interesting. It's a unique thought process that I doubt speaks for many people.
But funny, I wonder what the question would have yielded if the first choice was you get a 2000 and everyone else has 3000 sf home. I wonder if more people would then opt for the 4000 sf home since everyone else's house is going to be bigger either way. THAT would interesting.
But remember, I really wondered in first place where Frank even got those results. I'd be curious.
Unique thought processes
I don't agree that this is simply a difference of opinion. You are making a claim that is provably false. You say that the reason people choose the second option is irrational envy, pure and simple. I am telling you categorically that I would choose the second option for a completely different reason. I am making no claims that others are using my reasoning, but I am providing direct evidence that there is more than one reason to choose that option. You hadn't considered that point of view, previously, and consider it a unique thought process. How many other unique thought processes are there that you haven't thought of yet? Adam provides several more
just off the top of his head. You have absolutely no way of determining why these choices were made, and are making assumptions that paint the choice that you think is "wrong" in the most negative light. It would be like me making the claim that people chose the first option because they are just greedy SOB's that want the biggest possible house they can get.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
There are lots of those uniqur thought processes
out there. I'm quite sure.
But like I said, there's no way to settle it.
It's not provably false. Granted, the point about envy is harder to prove but you haven't disproven it.
But the point the larger point that this is more about relative standing than conserving space seems quite stronger. And I think envy falls in as a subset of that category.
The existence of your opinion doesn't "prove" what lies behind the opinions of others.
If you want to take a very small sampling, you are the only person in that article or on this thread so far who thinks it has more to do with concerning space than some relative standing among other people. That doesn't prove much but it proves that in this sample that your take on the matter is unique. And when you control for ideology, it's still unique.
Proof
If what you are saying is "some people who chose the second option did so for reasons of envy," then yes, that cannot be proven false, and is almost certainly correct. It also isn't a particularly compelling argument. It certainly seemed like you were trying to say that it was the only reason, which is clearly wrong. What I have "proven" is that there is more than one way to skin this cat. Envy is clearly not the only reason to choose the second option.
Also, as a point of clarification, I am not saying that the respondents' answers have more to do with open space considerations, all I am just saying that my answer is based on that.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Well, SL
I appreciate your energy on the matter.
But I did say is rather vague if we want to pinpoint it's exact meaning.
I didn't say "everyone" and I didn't say "some".
I did say "some people are vain" and that "it IS envy".
Obviously...I'd like to think...when people say things like this...regardless of the subject matter...we often speak in short hand.
One could say that Obama's margin of victory over McCain was a refutation of the Bush years. That could be valid in many respects....but does it speak for everyone who voted? Obviously not.
I know it's still not clear but we'll leave it that.
Like I said, there's really no way to clearly settle the matter.
That said, the discussion of "positional goods" from which this discussion was taken does imply a certain level of judging one's self on the basis of what other people have and not simply on the basis of absolutes. That, IMO, describes an emotion that could be thought of as envy in a general sense....even if some think it isn't.
My beef with Klein and Frank is that they claim this kind of positional good judgement has nothing to do with envy. I disagree.
But the housing question aside, if you take this conclusion that Klein and Frank draw:
People would rather have less as long as it's more than everyone else instead more when knowing everyone else had a little more.
...I'd say envy (or vanity if you will) of some kind is playing a role. Klein is dillusional if he thinks otherwise in my opinion.
The point of the matter
here is that this is all just speculation on peoples motives.
It reminds me of a game show on TV. Guess what size house people would chose if .....
The best prize you could win in this game show would be a job that they think won't disappear and that pays a reasonable wage.
I would guess confidence in a steady income is more relevant than any speculations as to how big is big enough.
I'm only half stupid
As would I
I agree.
But the rationale behind the inequality argument is that this is not enough of good thing in and of itself if some incomes are rising faster and making for more inequality.
The rationale of Kenworthy would rather lower that steady income (and perhaps slightly weaken job growth) just a bit and spend it on transers so he can have the satisfaction of knowing that wealthier people had their income lowered just a bit more than you had yours lowered.
Are most people really better off? Hard to tell. But at least we're all a bit closer.
house size, all else being equal...
Klein wrote
(update: this link does not work, the SC site renders ampersands improperly):
Note on methods (a.k.a "Ugh, third hand information"): Klein does not cite the original research, so it is very difficult for us to decide how to interpret it. We're stuck trusting his interpretation, which seems to be fully based on the interpretation of the author who wrote that book -- who I hope read and understood the entire body of original research.
As SL was suggesting, the conclusion of "positional good" is based on the assumption that the study respondants were able to mentally separate these hypothetical house sizes from the rest of the hypothetical world. First, I'm not sure that the studies were designed to emphasize that point, and second, I'm not sure that typical survey respondants have the skills or inclination to keep their thoughts pure like that.
As SL suggested, they very easily could have included estimations of how house size would impact other aspects of our lives. They could have thought about the amount of open space, or about the implications for urban layout (big houses = more driving, less walking). They may have considered the expense of heating a large house, and aggregate demand for fossil fuels (thereby raising their price and increasong CO2 emissions). They may have even been intimidated by the prospect of cleaning and maintaining a large house -- a good study would have at least made sure that the respondants wanted a larger house, all else being equal. However, I know that there are plenty of bad studies out there, and this is especially true for the social sciences where funding organizations and publishing houses often have political agendas.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
IÂ spent a bit looking for
I spent a bit looking for review of the book Falling Behind: How Rising Inequality Harms the Middle Class here
and here
.
They include fairly thorough refuation of the logic employed as justification for trying to level the financial playing field. Despite one's own personal feelings, I think it's pretty plainly obvious that agreement with Frank's idea requires an ideological predisposition to do so. His logic and data "cherry picking" is far from anything that would convince anyone else.
And it's definately envy. If it were anything else, he wouldn't have concentrated on housing. He would have talked about something actually important as a distinction between wealth and poverty. Access to things like food, healthcare, and education. Instead he talks about home additions like it has some root connection to personal happiness on a global level.
If it quacks like a duck...
.
This statement is so wrong I can't imagine where to begin
That the idea of income equality, or at least not having unimaginable income inequality, troubles you is really sad, John. It is in fact pretty scary, like a person who enjoys hurting animals. The middle sacrificing a little, the rich sacrificing a lot and the poor doing better is, in fact, the ideal. That you can't see that suggests you have something preventing you from empathizing with others.
I can't think of anything you've written that's physically disgusted me more than this.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Smaller Pie and smaller portions each
I think John was arguing against a position that very, very few people hold
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Everyone doesn't have less
there's no way for everyone to have less unless we're talking about some kind of cataclysm. If the rich come down the poor go up. The only question is what happens to the middle. If they need to go down slightly that's a very reasonable price to pay.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Very wrong
very misunderstood.
Feel free to disagree with my real position but making my position into something that it isn't accurate isn't very productive.
Brutus clearly got it. I'm sure everyone else who read it did too. Brutus only spelled it out because you misinterpreted so much.
However, unlike Brutus, I think the position is more widely held on a conscious level than he does.
Kenworthy, in the article I linked to, clearly holds that position as does Ezra Klein.
Alright
I'll accept that you meant it in the sense that Brutus said. That still means you're wrong though. You can;t bring the rich down without bringing the poor up by deflation if nothing else and most likely by redistribution, when the rich come down their wealth does not simply vanish. Economics is very much a zero sum game when you are talking about the moment. X wealth exists in this moment, no more no less, the only question is who has how much.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Well, that disagreement is entirely different
and more on the level than questioning my abiliy to empathize.
On your assertion, I'll simply say this:
Snap shots in time don't tell the tale. "At the moment" isn't how economic activity and progress is judged. "At the moment" tries to treat everything as static when it is not. "At the moment" ignores changes in standards of living. "At the moment", in short, is inadequate and is just a simplified way of modeling reality in way to justify saying "zero sum". The fact that nearly every percentile of America is wealthier is absolute terms as the decades go by and every single percentile is wealthier from a multigenerational view shows that it's not zero sum.
But let's not lose sight of something here in this blog entry I made:
What kenworthy is advocating is not both more equality and absolute improvement. He's only talking about more equality. Ezra echoes this wish by basically saying 'tis better to have less and be more equal than to have more and be less equal. He tries to suggest via Robert Frank that people actually prefer this.
Keep in mind that Kenworthy also admits that the kind of equality he'd like to see involves A LOT more money being collected and redistributed via transfers...and that sums of the amount he's talking about can only be achieved by taxing everyone more. He says we need a consumption tax (which is flat and regressive my nature) to fund more social spending. Why? Because, as he says:
The difference is consumption taxes. There simply aren't enough rich people to tax enough (without changing incentives) to raise this kind of revenue. Kenworthy knows this. Ylglesias knows this. So it becomes a game of trying to get the middle class to believe that higher taxes and costs of living for them is good thing so we can reduce inequality.
IOW, he's wants to tax the middle class more (and let's face it: consumption taxes will pull a lot more money from the broad middle class than it will from the rich...along with pulling out a greater percentage of middle class income than for the rich) to redistribute more money to the poorest and back to the middle class. But at what cost?
Never in all this is the idea of the absolute condition of the poor considered or if it's really better this way or if the longer-run effects on the poor and lower middle and middle class are worth the extra taxes. Sure the I'll grant that the absolute condition of the poorest may improve...but we don't need massive amounts of new money...from the middle class...to do this. We simply need different budgetary priorities.
I really don't agree with this
In what universe is having a 2,000 square foot home "having less" ? The Robert Frank example shows (and I believe this is closer to Ezra's point - and the liberal philosophy in general - than your mischaracterization) that it is better to have a little bit more and be more equal, than to have a lot more and be less equal.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
You basically repeated the same thing, SL
with one small twist:
I said:
Then you "disagree" and counter with:
The only difference is that you used "more" in the first part of the statement and I used "less".
However, I don't see how you can use "more" since the thought experiment that that statement was based on was the idea of the questionee having 3000 s.f. home vs. a 4000 s.f. home. That was the context.
3000 is less than 4000.
Context
The context that you are missing is that the respondents to the survey are in fact real people, not statistics. And I can say with almost complete certainty that for a vast majority of those people, choosing between a 3,000 sf home and a 4,000 sf home is not a choice between less and more, but between more and much more.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
I don't see how you draw that conclusion
Not only that but the further context of what Ezra was trying to point out was the idea of "positional goods" through the perspective of the individual. That means that people value what they have by how it stacks up against what others have....IOW, it's relative, not absolute.
He is SAYING, as is Robert Frank, that people prefer to have less than more (and 3000 is less than 4000 no matter how you slice it) when they know that having less (given the choices presented) means they'll have more compared to others. Again, it's relative, not absolute.
Ezra drew on this example by Robert Frank with the aim of providing an example of this idea. It was Ezra's agenda. He stated it clearly. And after all, I'm talking about Ezra, Robert Frank and Kenworthy...who also gave the same idea.
The fact that you interpret what the anecdote provided by Ezra differently than he does doesn't change my criticism of Ezra (and Kenworthy...and Frank) and people who think the same way.
Snapshots tell the tale much better
at the moment is how we live and so it is what matters. It doesn't make any difference if you might see expanded wealth in a month if you are homeless and starving now. You don;t live a month hence you live now.
Now is what matters. Period.
in the now things are static. In fact in any short term view applicable to people's lives (a few months or years) economics is static enough that the small changes are essentially noise when compared to inequality. Who cares if the economy grows 3% or 6% when compared to income inequality of 100,000% (not a made up number that's actually the wealth inequality of the top 1% vs the 60-80% bracket in 2001, I'd compare it to the bottom bracket but they average negative wealth)? ItGrowth is nothing but noise in that context.
It is absolutely better. It is more moral, more ethical, and more practical. Inequality is a terribly destabilizing force for a society. It leads to bloody revolutions and chaos. Besides which the notion that growth for its own sake is an automatic good is repugnant and short sighted. It is the cancer mentailty and should be treated as such.
Bull#$@%. The top 1% own over a third of all the wealth. That alone is more than enough. You don't seem to have any idea of just how skewed inequality has become. The problem has always been getting them to actualy pay it. But sooner or later it will come to a place where they pay or it gets taken over their dead bodies, and I mean this with no exaggeration at all. Massive inequality can be maintained during relatively good times by distracting the masses. During hard times that become impossible.
And who will set those budget priorities? Who has the funds available to bribe congress to get their ideas written in law? Who has the connections to pull the strings and control who gets elected? Who has the resources to run for congress in the first place? Yeah. I thought so. Your idea relies on the rich to voluntarily give up their money for the benefit of everyone else. If they were willing to do that we wouldn't be in this situation. They've had forever to do the right thing. I don't see the point of waiting any longer. And given the economic and political climate I know I'm not alone.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
no tlaloc
Snapshots don't tale a better tale and for reasons I've already given. It may not tell the tale you want but that's not my problem.
The argument about starving people and what to do for them now and how to properly look at the economy in terms of it being an ever explanding, evolving and growing pie are two different things. One need not ignore one to take action on the other.
On the Bullshit comment, take that up with Kenworthy and the others. Kenworthy wants less inequality. That is the purpose of his article. But there seems to be an accepted wall as to how much you can extract from the rich over the long run. And moving tax rates ever higher on that small group of people is going to have diminishing returns. That's why Kenworthy talks about a consumption to raise that revenue. That's why he has that chart to show what other countries do on this front like Norway, Sweden, Finland, the UK, Germany and Canada and Holland. The tax rates are no more progressive....often times less. But there is a huge consumption tax to raise that money. He wants to model that.
That last one about budget priorities...
No, it doesn't rely on the rich voluntarily giving up money. Maybe if the budget wasn't do unbelievably huge, it would easier. But I'll tell you that if you want to talk about political feasibility, you'll have more luck getting more funds snuck into the budget than getting top rates jacked up to 70-90%.
Zero sum? Obviously not.
I wanted one that was more current but this does the job: (Note that it is in year 2000 dollars and not nominal)
And then this:
Does this tell the entire story? No. Does it demonstrate that they were no poor people or no problems along the way? No. But it does show that any attempt to dwell exclusively on "Now" misses quite a bit.
No just the opposite, John
What this shows is my point precisely. Of what use at all is the information from 1950? It has exactly no bearing on us at all. If you removed the 1950 column you lose no information of any consquence except to historians. It is the moment that matters.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I think now you might be being a tad obtuse
...
Bogus chart extraordinaire.
This chart is a 'feel good' piece of garbage that is irrelevant to anything that is going on now.
This chart forgot that the now is deeply entrenched with credit debt. IN other words in 1950 how many people had credit cards vs how many people use credit for purchases today.
The cost of time hours worked ignores the interest on the credit card that paid for the toaster.
It also ignores that the more credit debt the purchaser of the toaster has the more time hours in the future it takes to pay for that toaster because the interest on the credit will be higher.
It ignores that an American company that makes the toaster pays taxes in America, hires American workers that then spend money that supports their local economy, as opposed to paying Chinese workers whose spending does not benefit the American economy or supporting jobs in this country.
It also ignores that the goal of making toasters in China is to honor how cheaply they can be produced as opposed to how well they are made.
It also ignores that Wall Street took that credit card debt on the toaster, and used it to prop up the biggest global financial scam ever. Insuring debt with no capital to back it up. (See AIG)
It also ignores that the federal budget gave away money in the form of tax subsidies to allow an unfair and unequal trade agreement with China that lets American manufacturers operate offshore without paying taxes and with unequal tariff agreements.
These are just a few of the misrepresentations in this chart.
I'm only half stupid
No MissL,
The chart didn't ignore or forget anything since its purpose was to demonstrate purchasing power over time. And I showed this chart in the context of discussing "zero-sum".
Along with this chart
which now seems to be missing.
Current troubles in the financial sector do not NEED to be accounted for when discussing other subjects.
As for things it ignores...like toasters being made in China instead of here and all that other fallacious protectionist sophistry..., you seem to ignore the most basic notions of comparative advantage.
There are no misrepresentations on the chart. What the chart has a simple quantifiable truth that exists over time. Other topics...whether they related to the chart or not...are just that: Other topics.
NO it is not a simple
quantifiable truth that exists over time, precisely because it ignores the the use of the credit card.
To make quantifiable measure true you would have to find out how many people used how much debt over how long a period of time to purchase the toaster.
The quantifiable truth is that credit cards allow you to purchase goods, like toasters, but you pay more if you took out a credit card to purchase it.
The interest on the debt should be included in the price.
Surely you are not suggesting that people don't used pre-approved debt to purchase goods in the 'now'.
I'm only half stupid
The cost of basket of goods
and the amount of hours at the average wage it takes to buy them has nothing to do with a credit card.
Yes it does
IF you use a credit card to pay for it, it changes the amount of hours you have to work for you basket of goods. You have to work more hours to pay for the basket.
I'm only half stupid
The chart doesn't consider credit cards.
It's pretty obvious.
It's based on average wage multiplied by a certain amount of hours at that wage. That's it.
If you make $20 per hour and product X costs $40, it takes two hours to buy.
Credit cards don't fit in the equation.
And Abe Lincoln is the Worst President Ever
Yeah it's all starting to make sense now.
That's edgy. Really serious new thinking and analysis.
If you want to welcome yourself to new thinking then maybe it's time to come to grips with the reality that credit factored into cost would be a more realistic measure of price.
I'm only half stupid
What are you talking about?
I never said that about Abe Lincoln. And that's also irrelevant.
Credit cards don't factor into it. I don't know how else to explain it than I already did. The chart measures the average wage and how many hours at that wage it takes to buy those goods.
You seem to want the discussion to be about something else while pretending your talking about the chart.
You're really reaching to avoid admiting your wrong.
Consistency
According to you I am always wrong. Big deal. What else is new.
I know it's a bit hard for you to think outside the box, but the comment about dear old Abe was referenced here because your most precocious and clever re-listing of Presidents according to your friends & fellows of the libertarian leanings, who rank dear old Abe as the absolute worst President ever, has no comment button to respond with. I thought you might catch on when I posted the 'Abe' comment here, but you were too focused on being right about that irrelevant simplistic chart.
Maybe you could correct your mistake // in case someone wants to comment on the refreshingly new view of ranking Presidents past.
I'm only half stupid
Foe what it's worth...
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Should have been shot.....huh!
But Lincoln was a Republican.
OH yeah and you forgot your link again! Who wrote this trash, David Duke or George Wallace?
NOthing like celebrating the death of an American President! Wohooooo!
Isn't that celebrating terrorism? You are a real patriot.
I'm only half stupid
Why the racial comments?
I'll tell you why, cause you're a sheep, and sheep are ignorant to truth.
Your understanding of the civil war is about as deep as your understanding of economics, about as deep as Salt lake.
Just mosey on down along the sheep trail honey.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Unreal.
Why don't you take a step back, take a deep breath and look what you reduce yourself to...and for what?
That's not true. I said you were wrong about the chart. Maybe it put more spring in your step to put "always" in there. I dunno.
A bit hard for me to think outside the box? Listen to yourself. Seriosuly.
That list was one man's opinion. Why lash out so broadly about it at everyone?
I didn't realize the comments were off. I aplogize. Comments are on as a default. I never bothered to check. I just assumed nobody had a comment.
But this is all because I was too focused about being right about "that irrelevant and simplistic chart"? Seriously. Do you really think you advance anything by acting like that? And you mean the chart that you were trying to make into more than it was? That chart that you insisted on misinterpreting?
Since you posted
the list I assume you think it is meaningful, is relevant and has merit.
What I am trying to advance is I think about as much of the newly prioritized list of Presidential rankings you posted as I do of the chart. Neither one is relevant to much of anything, except a very narrow slice of right wing libertarian thought. That's all.
I'm only half stupid
My own words:
That's what I think.
It's too bad you'd rather go off in a negative direction.
I'll just stay on the high road and leave it at that. If you choose to engage in a positive and friendly, good-faith manner, I'll respond then.
(BTW, that fact that you've failed to twist and alter the meaning of the chart and then decided to throw ad hominem attacks at it when all else failed hasn't gone unnoticed...for what it's worth).
You take the high road
I'll take the low road.
It keeps things more interesting.
I'm only half stupid
If you say so....
Ha!
That's the nicest thing you have ever said to me!!
I'm only half stupid
I highly doubt it.
...
Have you no sense
of humor?
LIghten up!
I'm only half stupid
I do.
I was smiling when I wrote that.
Sorry that that can't be conveyed easily through the screen. I should have put a
after it.
Lighten up!
Chicago, far from the South
Abe did declare martial law in Chicago, because he feared a Confederate uprising in the city might possibly, someday could happen if he sat back and did nothing.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Nation of Vampires
You'll notice that more than half of us receive more from the government than we give in taxes. Having reached this point, nothing but the tattered remnants of morality prevents the parasitical majority from stealing more and more from the productive minority, until the producers have been bled dry and the whole kleptocracy inevitably collapses into abject poverty.
Since shiftlessness is subsidized and productivity is punitively taxed, our socialist rulers should hardly be surprised that they will be getting less of the latter. Calls are getting louder for Atlas to shrug. From Pursuing Holiness
, the source of the graph:
The alternative is to subsist as a slave.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Up to your old tricks again?
Your post is lifted whole cloth from here
, you should acknowledge that.
As to the content of the post, I would be more concerned if less than half of us received more from government spending than we paid in taxes. That would indicate that tax rates are too high, and most people are getting screwed.
As for people cutting back their productivity to drop out of the $250,000 bracket, well, they are just idiots
, I guess.
I'd get on your case about the hyperbole involved in the statement "The alternative is to subsist as a slave," but it's not like those are your words, right?
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Oh man...sorry I did include it...
...but was having problems posting it for some reason, eventually I just deleted the top part where I had included the link and it looked normal, sorry, and thanks for posting the link.
As far as people not wanting to be taxed above 250K, why are they idiots, it's the same principle that locks people in welfare, are they idiots too?
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Idiots
Reducing one's productivity in order to drop to a lower tax bracket is what I am calling idiotic. Did you read the link I provided? I know you know how marginal tax rates work, so I am surprised you would think people should actually try to drop down below a certain earnings level.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
That's right
I don't know anyone who decided to stop working because they didn't want to pay more in taxes. I don't know a single businessman who decided to forgo a sale because he didn't want to pay more in taxes.
Investments are the only plausible scenario. If you're betting on a 5% rate of return on one investment and a 7% rate of return on another, but 3% of the latter is lost to taxes, you're better off with the 5% return in the grand scheme.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
I certainly hope so...
What is the point of having a government if it doesn't help the poorest elements of our society?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Silly silly question.
Nowhere in our whole founding documents does it say word one about doing anything for the poorest elements of society. because that is not at all what our government is for.
What is the point of having a society of people, if they won't help the poorest elements of our society without being forced to by government?
It's like, ask not what your government can do for you, but what you can do for your fellow man.
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
And I care.
See? See how much I care about what the "founding documents" say on the matter? You know why? Because life in 1776 was completely different than in 2009. I have as much regard for the opinions of the founding fathers as they have for mine. We exist in different worlds.
The question is not whether people will try to help without being forced but whether they can do so efficiently (hint- they can't, private charity is about making the giver feel good, not about actually helping the needy).
What we can do for our fellow man is create a system that responsible allocates resources to help those who need it most.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Government's Efficient Allocations...
Well, I'm not so sure that the government is all that great at distributing funds in most cases. I think the government can allocate resources on things they are more familiar with and that are more directly under their federal control. However, when it comes to funding local projects and solving social issues, I think charities will most likely have a leg up on the government because they can repsond more quickly to changing conditions on the ground.
Private charities like the Salvation Army, Red Cross, Goodwill, United Way, and all the umbrella charities that fall under these entites are forced to be more accountable to its donors. The government tends to apply a one-size-fits-all approach to solving social problems. They do this probably because in their view the only way to monitor fund dispersal is to make sure everyone does it the same way. They also listen to lobbyists who get paid to see their ideas. Private charities are held accountable locally. If people don't see how their donations are working in their community. They stop giving or give to another charity.
As for the first part, I agree. If we brought the Founding Fathers in a time machine to today's society I think they'd be appalled at the lack of civic engagement and the wealth imbalance. However, I don't think they'd advocate for flatter wealth disparities, just fairer ones. Wealth creation comes when you have enough money to live comfortably and can spend time thinking of other ways to help others. If the top people have a vast majority of the wealth (and is scared to spend it) and everyone at the bottom is "scratching and survivin" the economy slows down.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Wasn't the origin
of the constitution based on stopping the rich aristocrats from taking advantage of the poor, by providing essentially checks and balances on those in power? To me that says the wealthiest few should not be allowed to bully the rest of us for the sake of building an empire.
I'm only half stupid