Monday-->Thursday Open Thread
Obama gets quite active in the Auto Industry:
Some frustrated U.S. taxpayers cheered President Barack Obama's tough steps to shore up the reeling auto industry on Monday but critics called his decision to fire General Motors' chief a heavy-handed power grab.
Obama signs Omnibus Public Lands Management Act into law. (more below the fold)
Wall St. tumbles on Auto woes .
So other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?
ouch.
Submitted by John on Mon, 2009-03-30 16:25
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More on the Auto Bailout
NY Times Article
.
Here's On the Bailout
.
Here's another by Russ
in reaction to Obama's speech on the Auto bailout
The Ford Fiesta?
I like Ford, but I hope the NYT was playing when they mentioned that in the graphic.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
an here lies the real problem.
The fiesta as released in the US was a huge POS. Spend a few minutes looking into the newest ones that Europe gets (for instance, check out Top Gear's review of it last season. Not only is the car great, but Top Gear also happens to be the best show on the planet in all of human history...ever...probably in the whole universe, really.) and you'll see that there's nothing to chuckle about.
Europe has been getting better products out of our "domestic" manufacturers for years. If people knew more about the auto industry, there'd be a lot less of this "They must be saved!" nonsense and a lot more "Let them fail!". They had their chance and they blew it. Hard.
Here's a recent review.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/03/first-drive-an-hour-with-the-ford-fiesta-in-the-big-apple/
From Liberal Democratic parts of my google reader:
on the Bailout:
Ezra Klein
.
Economists View: Nothing
Yglesias: Nothing Delong:
Nothing Rodrik: Nothing
Angry Bear: Nothing
Here's a few
Here's a Few
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=03&year=2009&bas...
http://feeds.dailykos.com/~r/dailykos/index/~3/PHef4uV68vw/-Obama:-GM-t-...
...
I know the last link is DK, but the content seems fair.
I thought I was the only one using Google reader.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
How does DK work in Google Reader?
Front page stories only?
Yup. Same with our little site here...
No comments either. Just in case you were curious (lol), here are the sites I have on my reader. Let me know if you have any additional to share.
Politics and Culture: bensmith/ 
theatlantic.com/ 
com/ 
com/ 
theatlantic.com/the_daily_ dish/ 
raw_feed_index.rdf 


http://www.politico.com/blogs/
http://ta-nehisicoates.
http://politics.theatlantic.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.
http://www.dailykos.com/
http://www.redstate.com/
http://www.reason.com/blog
http://andrewsullivan.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
http://spectator.org/blog
http://www.prospect.org/
http://www.memeorandum.com/
Science
http://www.sciam.com/
Personal Finance com/
(Shameless plug!) pf/saving/?section=money_pf_ saving 
com/ 

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.
http://money.cnn.com/rssclick/
http://www.freemoneyfinance.
http://www.fivecentnickel.com/
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
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I had a pretty positive job interview
I'd be doing research for a collection of blog sites looking at alternative energy issues. It's only part time but the pay sounds good and the tpic is one I like. I should know next week if I got the job.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
good luck
...
Ditto John, good luck.
...
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Sounds mythical. A job you actually like doing.
We all hope it works out for you.
And my snark in the title is only half snarky. Most of us can deal with our jobs. I actually really like mine, but of course there are some folks in my corporation who think it's thier responsibility to make others miserable and stir up trouble. I avoid those folks as much as I can.
When those of us at work make the observations of who likes trouble & why, we can only conjecture. I think they are unhappy with their own lives and resent seeing others who are happy....hence the stirring up crap. But I'm not a trained psychologist. I only took two undergraduate psych classes.
Good luck!
I hope it works out for you!!!
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
Obama continues to carry Osama's water for him.
You know, I started off this meme just as a pointy joke. But the more I read the more real it seems to be becoming. Is Obama really an Osama operative? Could an Osama operative have done any better at causing the coninued decline of the economy?
And what about this nearly unprecedented power grab by Obama? He is now intervening in private companies? Where are the howls from the left?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Oh come on ...
we can discuss what Obama is doing without getting into wildly speculative accusations.
You know full well that Obama is not an operative for Bin Laden. No need to go there...even in joking.
Sure, I don't believe that he really IS an Osama operative ...
but is it not a fair question to ask how his actions and policies would differ from one? At some level that is a real question, what would Osama do? I think I'll make that my new catch phrase for these sorts of things.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4How would they differ?
Intent.
For starters.
Obama is not doing this with the intent of doing Bin Laden's will.
Moreover, I think Bin Laden's idea has more to do with bankrupting Amercian through prolonged and costly military operations.
Does intent really matter?
Or results?
Why do you keep coming back to "Bin Laden's idea has more to do with bankrupting Amercian through prolonged and costly military operations?" It is true that this is the means he originally envisioned given his ability to otherwise affect out economy, but do you not think that he is adaptable enough to empoy alternative means?
Obama may have all the best intentions in mind, but if his results are that same as what Osama wants for us is that distinction really all that satisfying or comforting in the end?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Yes. it does matter
if we're going to compare people with differing agendas
Bin Laden's ability to ad-lib his means of getting his wish is not the issue here.
Agreed ...
but not agreed at the same time. It's like the difference between intent and results. Sure, I can acknowledge that it is not Obama's intent to carry Osama's water, but if he ends up doing so I really don't care how or why he did.
Enough said on this aspect of the bailout discussion.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Poor Mr. Prescottt
From the Link above:
Perhaps he should take a gander at what they are actually considering
? But I guess sensationalizing the story of the day is more effective.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
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So what does Obama have in mind for retirees?
Why throw them under the bus, of course. If Bush had proposed such a thing we would never have heard the end of the howls and wailing about how this was a big corporate gimme and how the plan was only designed to help the rich and powerful at the expense of the little guy.
So what are we hearing from the left now? Crickets
.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4The Health care "Gutting"
But isn't this the root of the issue? What's GM's alternative? They can't meet the obligations of their Health care of the hundreds of thousand of employees who have retired. They don't have enough money to cover it, unless they get it indirectly from the US taxpayer via continued federal bailouts. (And since taxpayer funded HC is awful...)
So say you were in Obama's shoes. What would you do with the Big Three? Remember, bankruptcy will most likely lead to gutting of HC for employees (that's what they mean generally by eliminating those "legacy costs")...I'm serious. No solution in my opinion is a "good" one.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
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That little "problem" seems a
That little "problem" seems a bit comical at this point. When a government has already commited unthinkable amounts of money to fix it's "problems" that when it finds an actual problem (contracts which can't be honored specifically relating to something Obama wants to improve) it can't seem to figure out what to do...
hmmm...
What to do. What to do.
But of course.
Yes, the legacy healthcare costs for retired workers is clearly the root of the problem (but not the only problem). That much is obvious to both sides of the aisle. This is sort of the political third rail for the auto industry in that same sense that social security reforms are considered a political third rail. No one wants to touch it because they know they're gonna get fried. So we end up in a political game of chicken over the issue.
Whomever is forced to actually make the move is going to get reemed royally by the other side just like I am doing above to Obama. If Bush had done it the Democrats would be saying the same things I am about him.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4OK, I get it.
So eventually the third rails have to be touched. You're bashing Obama because it's "necessary." Well, as long as it's getting done, I'm not complaining. Someone needs to. I didn't bash Bush on social security reform because I thought it was necessary--at least it was a try.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
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And this, of course ...
is the voice of reason talking. And in an ideal world where both sides actually sought reasonable solutions to such things everyone would be better off. I too would prefer it if things were more reasonable in the political arena, but I am a fight fire with fire type of guy so I do what I do from that perspective. When people are slinging mud at me I'm going to return fire! :)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Agreed. I'd expect nothing less n/t
.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
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Obama demands the Chrysler gut health care benefits ...
See how this works? Obama demands that Chrysler cut it health-care obligations ... result is that even more people are without health-care ... creating a health-care crisis to enable and justify his plans to nationalize health-care in the US on top of everything else. Sneaky, eh?
But not at all surprising. The more troubling aspect of this plan is how Obama merely sees the people involved as pawns in his chess game. He's playing chess with people's real lives here.
Pretty soon will we even have any private corporations left?
<Clasps hands and looks to Heaven>
Oh when will this tyranny come to an end?
</Hands clasping>
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4McArdle on the Auto Bailout
http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/03/whither_gm.php
See link for government proposals to that question.
The words "Fatal Conceit" come to mind.
Not pretty....
I think she hits this sqaure on the head.
Obama is in this to protect the UAW and, in doing so, he is likely to cripple the new company coming out of all this in the process. Why? Because Obama won't be able to get the UAW to accept the inevitable concessions required to allow the new company to be viable. The courts, of course, certainly could.
She also correctly calls out the government "plan" for any substantive detail on how it will operationalize things. It is more a list of obvious motherhood and apple pie corproate goals than a plan. They need to reduce their "obligations?" In this context "obligations" is Democrat code speak for retirement benefits to former employees. It is Democrat code speak for payments to people who no longer provide any benfit to the corporate bottom line. Now I don't like the situation any better than the UAW but that's the reality. The plan is completely silent on how they will get the UAW to accept this, and as McArdle correctly points out the courts are much better enabled to do so.
Of course Obama knows this so why is he interfering in the natural course of things? He's forced to make good on the UAW protection money paid to the Democrats all these years by keeping it out of the courts.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4whatever....Health care is why the US isn't competative though.
Europe & Asia both have their governments covering their workers & retiree's health benefits with a single payer system. It saves them over $1500 on each car produced. Their helathcare systems cost half the price Americans end up paying....so who is to blame? Not the UAW, that's for sure. Me, I'd put the finger more squarely on those who don't want any kind of single payer system demaning American companies continue to be unable to compete.
America should be more like Europe (Liberty, Fraternity, Equalit
There's a good article at the Economist discussing what American conservatives can learn from Europe
.
The author basically suggests that Americans should treat Europe like a mature, independent person who looks to the experiences of his peers to see what he can learn from them; this is in contrast to those Americans who treat Europe in the same way that a fawning child treats his parents (the pro-Europe left), or like defensive adolescents (the anti-Europe right).
At a time when American politics is divided over what sort of paternalistic stance the state should take (nuturing vs. disciplinarian), I like to remember the motto of the French revolution: Liberty, Fraternity, Equality.
Anyway, I'm getting sick of all the anti-european hand wringing come from Republicans or other conservative types (I'm not sure how Charles Murray
fits into this)
P.S. There's some new research investigating what we can learn from others
.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
Libertarians to Republicans:
Libertarians to Republicans: Stop mooching on our principles when yours no longer apply.
Some high profile Republican pundits and ex-politicians have been trying to ride the "Tea Party" wave to somehow gain back an ounce of credibility for their party. But they're not fooling anybody
.
This isn't "going Galt". This is a real concern for people and the Republicans attaching themselves to it are ruining it. Plain and simple.
Well, I am a Republican ...
and I have never supported Bush's spending and I have actively said as much several times here at SC. Are you telling me to stay away?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Obviously.
After you read the post and all of the related material that would be the only possible reaction one could form.
Interesting.
So you are turning away people who actually have opposed Bush's spending all along? That seems counter productive to your goals. It seems more people is better at things like these rallies.
And when did smaller government become "your thing" anyway, we have been arguing that line for decades. The fact that Bush wasn't on board doesn't change that fact.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4I am beginning to like the Megan McArdle person.
This is the second thing I have read of hers and I agree with her take here as well
. Read her commentary after the text of the Playboy.com article that was taken down. I think she is spot on that these claims of astroturfing are just bogus claims with not sources.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4You fail at reading comprehension.
The complaint was specifically focused on pundits and ex-politicians. Which is what I said. Which you missed, apparently. But continue with your rant. It seems positive.
Well, I'm sorry.
I guess it was this bit that threw me:
to which I asked:
and to which you replied:
Was this last bit meant as snark that I failed to catch or what?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Let's see:
Bush voter in 2000? CHECK
Bush voter in 2004? CHECK
Providing rhetorical 'aid and comfort' for Bush and his Republican allies for 8 years? CHECK
So what if you made some wishywashy statements expressing slight distaste for Bush's spending when the vast majority of your statements and actions suggested wholehearted support?
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
There was nothing wishy washy about it.
I never supported his spending on domestic issues that led to growing the government. Find me somewhere that I did.
So what if I opposed his spending?
Well that is the whole point of the article being discussed. His other policies were never mentioned in the article or Magilson's comment. So why do you think that they are even relevant to this thread?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Here you go.
Okay, how about this
? Here, you characterize Bush's budget deficits as "necessary", and defend his failure to veto bloated budgets as merely "respect[ing] the will of the people."
Seems pretty clear cut to me... No tea party for GoRight! :-)
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Heh.
Pretty weak stuff. The one-liner rapid fire marathon?
Let's review my comments there:
RE: Budget deficits.
RE: Tax cuts.
RE: Out of Control Spending and Pork.
RE: Bush has ultimate control.
So which of these is supposed to be demonstrating me "supporting his spending on domestic issues that led to growing the government." I don't see it.
I see support for wartime spending that boosts deficits. Are you saying that is the same as supporting growing the government domestically?
And the "respecting the will of the people" comment was clearly tongue-in-cheek jocularity ... note the Smiley.
So your grand evidence amounts to a distortion on your part and a joke on mine, right?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Okay, tell me how to interpret the smiley...
...on the "will of the people" comment... should I interpret that tongue-in-cheek jocularity as an indication that you actually believe that Bush should have vetoed some or all of the budgets he received from Congress?
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
No.
This was all happening at a time when liberals were complaining about how Bush was trashing the Constitution (a lie on their part) and spying on them (another lie), etc. The notion that Bush was even aware of the "will of the people" was probably unthinkable to the liberals then (and now, in fact). So this provided an opportunity to make a play off of that sentiment by refering to his not using the veto as evidence of the fact that he DOES listen to the will of the people as expressed by Congress.
It's funny, at least to me, because I could almost hear the groans from the left of me and the laughter to the right of me as I typed the words. :) In fact, I still get a chuckle out of it.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4So, Bush should not have vetoed any of the budgets...
So you're saying that Bush did the correct thing each and every time when he signed those budgets into law, even though they expanded government and caused trillions in deficits. I understand now. I don't think that's going to get you invited to the Tea Party though, is it?
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
I don't know how you got that ...
out of my explanation. The joke was completely neutral and non-committal on this point.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4So then you are unwilling to take a stand on Bush's budgets?
Again, I fail to see how avoiding the issue is going to get you an invite to the Tea Party :-(
So what's your answer, it's a binary question... should Bush have vetoed budgets or should he have done what he did... sign every one of them into law?*
*To be precise, Bush did veto a couple of spending bills in the last Congress-- a first for him
. I'm asking whether he should have vetoed any of the spending bills that he signed.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Oh, well if that's all you wanted ...
why didn't you just ask.
Bush should have done exactly what he did because the funding for the war and keeping the troops supplied was more important than the growth in the government in the short term. We can always work to downsize the governement but we can't bring back the dead from another terrorist attack.
That does not imply that I agree with, or accept as justified, the additional domestic spending that grew the government.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Much of the core of the tea party crowd...
...probably thinks that the Iraq war was a huge unnecessary waste of taxpayer funds. I still don't think you're going to get a warm welcome at the Tea Party...
Besides, Bush kept the war budget separate from the regular budget until his very last budget, didn't he? Couldn't Bush could have simply signed bills related to war spending and vetoed regular spending?
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
I have yet to meet a Republican out there who
thinks everything GW did was correct, and by far the divestiture in policy approval is in the areas of spending and the expansion of federal influence.
Why is it in the face of such flagrant disregard for the constitution by Mr. Obama and those that would do his work, do you dutifully default to the old road weary and inefficacious Bush allegories and juxtapositions?
Just a creature of habit?
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Okay...
Yes but if they remained silent, that's like giving tacit approval to Bush's policies. IMO, my friend GoRight here was conspuciously light on the criticism of Bush and the Republicans in Congress during the time I have known him. Even now, he won't take a stand on much of anything involving a Republican, as we see here.
"Flagrant disregard" for the Constitution? Are you talking about stuff like minor populist posturing over AIG bonuses? The circumstances of his birth? You'll have to narrow it down for me, tell me what you are referring to.
And "defaulting to Bush"? What do you know of my record... have you been lurking here for the past few years? I spend very little time discussing him actually. Look at my diaries here... maybe 2 of 30 are about Bush... I have more than that criticizing Democrats. What am I supposed to do-- never mention Bush ever, as my Republican friends here endlessly trash Obama every time the Dow drops 100 points or his Teleprompter has a glitch?
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
I could care less about Obama's birth certificate
But I do care about the many affronts to the fundamentals of American life that are taking place berfore our very eyes.
Let us take the little matter of what you term a minor populist posturing over AIG bonuses. Please tell me what law gives anyone the right to take away their bonuses? What law did they break?
BTW, I was only referring to this instance of Bushwhacking, not commenting on your record of which I have no awareness.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Snuck through the back door, that's how
The first plan was for the Federal government using the same tactic they use/used to get seat belt laws and speed limits. Tie funding to de facto concessions of power.
But Dodd mucked that up.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
They're attempting to tax the bonuses at a high rate...
..not take them away entirely.
I think they may be treading on thin Constitutional grounds, but I consider it to be merely a gray area, not a clear violation of the Constitution. If some AIG exec decides to challenge it, who knows? It may be upheld, it may be overturned. Either way, it is not a "flagrant disregard" for the Constitution... the authors of the legislation clearly crafted it with the Constitution close by, that's why they are addressing the bonuses through the tax code, where at least a good argument in favor of the constitutionality of the law could be made.
Barrons started an article on the bonuses this way:
That's how I see it too... experts are divided on the issue. So long as that's the case, the law will serve its purpose... at best, AIG execs will be tied up in the courts, racking up legal bills while trying to get their money. Few Americans want those execs to get that money anyway, and that's the populist angle of this-- politicians want to please their constituents. That's hardly shocking.
By the way, I believe the bill is not even law yet... it hasn't even been considered in the Senate yet and the House just passed a watered down bill yesterday
. So it isn't even law yet! They may well be ironing out the constitutional kinks as we speak. That's the Constitution working as intended, not a "flagrant disregard" for it.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Actually Richard Blumenthal, the AG in CT, and it's highest
ranking law enforcement official has gone after the bonuses of some 400 AIG employees who legally earned, and received them.
I would like to know what legal basis he is acting upon.
As far as I can tell this gentleman, like so many in government, is as caught up in this, for lack of a better word, socialist frenzy, as the rest of the gov. He is no longer acting as the chief enforcer of law, but acting on whim and fancy to weild the long arm of the law.
The potus is hiring and firing chief exec's in private corp's.
Geitner now has the power to do much more of that.
Banks are now lining up to give the money back as they see what kind of bedfellows the federal gov makes.
The Fed Gov is forcing my state (SC) to take stimulus funds, and will usurp the our elected Chief Exec in order to ram it down our throats, and when he tried to acquiesce and use the funds to pay down debt and create a rainy day fund, using the money to meet our states needs, he was told no.
I mean we are witnessing a fed gov gone berserk, they have strapped our country with 11 Billion dollars of debt, forced us to either keep the money presses rolling indefinitely and creating insane inflation, or taxing ourselves into oblivion.
At the end of the Bush Administration, many of us were concerned over 1/10th of that number!
The most simplistic answer is the most applicable, we can not borrow and spend our way out of borrowing and spending too much.
In fact, IMO, we are creating profound negative economic conditions, conditions that will far overshadow the inceptive conditions themselves.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Here's a better group of words:
Resume-building to spin for his re-election.
Past job as on a politcal campaign in your history?
The same idea that creates tax credits for certain activities or higher tax rates for income through other activities.
Same basic reason why there are seat belt laws in nearly every state.
The Fed gov't put in a backdoor, the elected officials of South Carolina's legislature is taking the funds.
Same basic theory of being given money for a first set of office appropriate attire for an interview. But one rejects the money and then takes the money and wants to use it to pay off credit card debts and go to the interview in jeans and a Jimmy Johnson shirt.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Brutus,
That's quite a stretch of that idea. That would mean that the government is taking it upon itself to discourage bonuses.
Touche
"Law Professor Who Advised Obama Says House AIG Bill May Be Unconstitutional"
Kind of similar to Alaska's distribution of oil money, that was originally tied to how long one lived in the state, but was found unconstitutional because of the way it treated citizens differently.
The bad thing about past SCOTUS decisions is, the gov't is allowed to take away fundamental rights just so long as:
There's a vested gov't interest.
The law is least intrusive as possible.
The execs at AIG wouldn't have received the bonuses if not for the Federal gov't. The tax hike would likely need to be geared at any bonuses from companies that would otherwise be insolvent.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
But that's a separate issue:
Indeed, it's entirely possible that AIG may have gone belly-up and filed for bankruptcy, thereby making the distribution of whatever monies available to pay contractual obligations a job of bankruptcy court and lawyers. Yes, it's possible. We don't know.
But the thought of that alternate reality is not proper grounds for saying it's OK to do it now....legally speaking. After all, the provision for safeguarding the clause to pay these bonuses was put in the bill.
We can discuss why that provision was put in but I don't think it's a very fruitful discusision. Some will point to conspiracy theories, some will say it's typical corporatist corruption, some will say it was the right thing to do based on obligation of prior contracts.
The snag in arguing any of those points is that the people who received bonuses, to my understanding, are not some uniform group that we can paint with a corrupt brush. It was a very diverse group whose bonuses were not all promised under the same pretenses. One could find that many of those bonuses were going to very deserving people who fulfilled a very reasonable milestone in their work to get that bonus...or who were contractually promised a bonus to work on sorting out this mess.
All that said, I'm not talking about my personal reactions to bonuses outside of the context of law and govenrment. I think it partly stinks. But I don't think that matters in a policy debate.
*My point is that it's a very complicated and convoluted to passing flimsily based judgement on from the outside and that the reasoning and blunt clumsy actions to seek "retribution" on those bonuses are surly going to get a lot of things wrong while setting very precedents on how public policy logic can be twisted and what it can be used on.
Meh
A state politician overreaches a bit to please the public. Is this anything new?
Well, Obama asked the guy to resign and he did. And realizing that it is not a long term solution for the government to be involved like this in the auto industry, Obama has recently indicated that the solution to GM will likely be a bankruptcy of some sort.
Probably a good thing. Bailout money should have strings attached. It shouldn't be a slam dunk for any business to take bailout money.
Partisan posturing over small potatoes on the state level. Maybe it's a big deal to you since you live in SC but it's hardly something that I'm going to lose sleep over.
1/10th? There was approximately 10 trillion in debt at the end of the Bush Administration. There is not 100 trilion in debt now, so I think you need to redo the math.
Obama has said as much himself, but the reality is that there is no real choice but to run at a huge deficit this year, even without the stimulus. And there is pretty broad consensus amongst experts that some sort of stimulus on top of the huge deficit in the regular budget was the best alternative.
Profound negative economic conditions existed when Obama took office. Many choices he makes are of the "least bad" variety. The handwringers need to keep these decisions in proper perspective. Obama does not want to meddle in the affiars of private industry, but he may feel he must do so on occasion if it is the best interest of the people. He does not want to run trillion dollar deficits but he does not want a secnd Great Depression either.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
heh,
No. However, I don't think it's something to give a blase' air to. No matter how many times it happens, that shouldn't be grounds for not caring, don't you think?
Maybe. "Least Bad" depends on what you consider the real trade offs to be.
It's not that I don't care...
I'm still responding to Centinel's "flagrant disregard for the constitution by Mr. Obama and those that would do his work" comment. He/she is clearly trying to say that Obama is at the center of some orchestrated wave of unconstitutional overreaches, where I think Obama has been a voice of reason on issues like AIG, and is a man who understands and respects the constitution from the position of having studied and taught constitutional law.
But I would imagine that even you would appreciate the fact that Obama has shown that he has limits to the amount of government intervention that he is willing to undertake... for instance his statements this week which indicate that he's going to allow the automakers to go into bankruptcy. (Which was the more important announcement this week? that Obama "fired" Waggoner, or that he indicated that bankruptcy is the solution for the automakers? I say the latter by far) I am encouraged that he is willing to resist the temptation of trying to do too much in some cases. In other cases, he is more agressive in his approach, but there appears to be reasoning behind the decisions, even when I disagree with the policy, such as on the recent housing policy.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Well,
Yes, I can appreciate that in the abstract and without context. However, The TYPE of intervention he is supporting (and Bush Co. before him) simply represents a departure from what I consider to be prudent and responsible...in accordance with MY view of the trade-offs and implications. My unvarnished view is grounded in probable results along with an appreciation for the limits and hazards of these kinds of interventions. I do not consider his intended aim to be a feasible result from all this.
That is in stark contrast to technocrats steeped in far too much admiration for their own ideas and an inversely related lack of respect for the realities that will almost surly scuttle their intentions.
It's also in stark contrast to politicians who are NOT looking at this is in politicking-free environment and have public choice-related issues that taint the decisions...such an observation is straight out of Public Choice Theory 101. IOW, Obama is not looking at this in a pure, dispassionate results-oriented fashion. His position in all of this is sadly controlled by the fact that the office he holds is "political" and subject to short-sighted spin and opportunism from all sides if doesn't take action. That prior, of course, is not his fault. It plagues any politician. It's the nature of beast. I know he doesn't have the luxury of ignoring the effects of posturing from morons in the peanut gallery. But it is exacerbated by the fact that many of his advisors have priors about economic thinking that make such action all the more inevitable.
The last politician to resist action was Warren Harding...of all people....back in the Panic of 1921. The reason most people aren't aware of the fact that there was a panic in 1921 is because Harding did nothing to interfere to with the correction. It's resolution was painful...yet very swift...so swift that it falls off the radar of most discussions of American economic history.
"Alllow me to retort"
Visions of Christian Scientist and the Paper Cut Pandemic of 1921 are dancing in my head.
The reason you haven't hear of this pandemic was because the doctors didn't treat it broad spectrum antibiotics or even steroids.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
I hope you're joking...
...
Domestic spying was arguably on of the biggests ...
protests against Bush in terms of "shredding the Constitution." And it's not just Republicans who think Obama is even worse
.
So I think Centinel's comment is pretty much on the mark.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Heh
But you don't think that Bush was "shredding the constitution" on domestic wiretapping, right? So how are you going to honeslty claim that Obama is shredding the constitution on domestic wiretapping, if he is merely continuing Bush's policy as Greenwald claims?
And Greenwald just said that Obama, in that instance, was doing the exact same thing as Bush. I challenge you to find where Greenwald has said that Obama is worse than Bush overall as far as "shredding the constitution".
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Bah.
There's no denying that things were bad at the end of the Bush terms, but get real ... Obama has made things significantly worse since he took office. Just look at the trend in the debt and jobless numbers. Both are worse now than when Bush left.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Unemployment is a lagging indicator
In the last two recessions, unemployment peaked a full 18 months after the recession had officially ended.
If you are looking for signs of improvement in the economy, the unemployment is the wrong place to look, because it will likely lag just about every other indicator you could look at.
Unfortunately, Obama inherited a trend of job losses numbering several hundred thousand a month, and those losses have continued into the first few months of his presidency, and I think that it's unlikely that there's going to be any real improvement in that trend over the next few months at least. There are almost certainly going to be another massive round of workers in the auto sector, and I personally believe that we haven't even really begun to see a fresh wave of layoffs due to a consolidation stage of merger and acquisitions that has been nearly impossible to this point becuase of the inability to finance deals due to the credit crisis.
Perhaps you have some magical way that Obama could have halted layoffs immediately the moment he stepped into the oval office?
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
I have never understood
the thinking that budget deficits necessary in a time of war, yet were never included in the Bush budget, thus making the deficits smaller in appearance only.
Strange.
I'm only half stupid
I completely agree.
n/t
Good news.....
May more Republican Pundints attach and ruin.
Send your tea bags to..... lbx@republicanleeches.snorg
%#l
I'm only half stupid
Its understandable magilson, no one wants x baby kissers
who have sold their political souls to the highest bidder, and exhibited little backbone in defending their parties stated ideals crashing the party and bringing their baggage along with them. However, the average republican today (IMO) does hold true to a traditional Reaganesque republican value system that is indeed antonymous of the current tyrannical circumstances we find ourselves in - so my question would be to you is why the pseudo-hostility towards a fellow traveler? After all, though different in so many respects, a love for the free market, a constitutional small government, and the capitalist system are all shared.
One thing is for certain, the socialist inclined in power at the moment, and their minions whom are responsible for providing us a need to demonstrate our displeasure in this way would find this exchange quite appetizing.
I think considering the dire potentialities involved, those of us who are like minded should be doing all we can to mend fences, and find commonalities by looking for similarities instead of differences.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
I disagree.
Based on what evidence, exactly? A lot of people still voted for a Republican who shares none of those values not that long ago.
Your inability to answer my question above in a concrete way will lead you to the revelation that your assertion that Libertarians and Republicans share anything is simply no longer true. I don't share ideological space with those who practice lipservice. Enduring 8 long years of excuses for Bush are going to be as painful as the years I'll have to listen to the excuses given for Obama. I haven't the patience for that kind of childish behavior.
I will agree that I find the new found movement for the rejection of socialist policy to be encouraging. I am glad at least a few of my fellow citizens are on something other than out-turned hand autopilot.
I agree. And for those few remaining Republicans who somehow managed to avoid getting sucked into the excuse-ridden years of the Bushes I say welcome. But Sean Hannity and Newt Gingrich need to shut up, retire to somewhewre I don't have to be reminded they existed, and disappear. They are not helping. At all.
Based on what evidence,
In two parts;
My opinion is solely that, an opinion, based on my experiences with those on the right and my observations of republicans and their innervation's.
Republicans of whatever sort had little choice of who to vote for in the last cycle, a vote for Sen McCain hardly disqualifies one from the table of sensible electorate.
Your reasoning here is both presumptive and pretentious.
I apologize, I didn't find your initial question as profound as you apparently do? I hope my response was concrete enough?
It seems to me you are confusing the fine hard working republicans across America with political pundits posing as television entertainers (or vise-versa). Do you think all Democrats are like Olbermann or Michael Moore? I sure hope not or you are out of touch with reality.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
You are making the same bad presumptions as GoRight.
I specifically said Republican pundits and ex-politicians. You two (GoRight and yourself) were the ones who extrapolated. Not me. And I could care less if you don't like my title then. Because with most heated topics here at SC, you are concentrating on exactly the wrong thing.
Wrong. Completely wrong. In fact, based on your assertion, I especially don't want to be involved or associated with people who are incapable of anything but party line voting even when they may not agree with that candidate. There is always a choice. Always. Settling for a candidate just because they have an R next to their name (or a D, or whatever) is a big factor in what allowed us to stray so far, in my opinion.
"Pairing" with like minded major party players has never proven to be anything but frustrating for Libertarians. Once in power, they (The Big Two) rarely follow through with their purported values. And their excuses for said behavior are, without fail, appeals to the past. It seems I've struck a chord with you. But that should mean more to you than it ever will to me. An appeal to hard working anything is a joke. You're supposed to be hard working. Nothing to get excited about there. I sure hope you are not out of touch with reality?!
This demonstrates why
Libertarians will never be in power.
It is so typical that you would fault the reader for your poor 'headline', blaming the reader for concentrating on what you wrote, instead of what you wrote.
If believing that the power of objective reason will be the solution to all mankinds ills, it seems to have gone missing in your response.
But wait for it..... you are so (un)reasonable, that you don't care.
I'm only half stupid
My irony meter just pegged ludicrous.
n/t
I see you were not addressing the common man.
Mags, sometimes your tone is quite aggressive and dismissive, I realize this format is difficult in that regard, but isn't this whole thing in some respect to win friends and influence people?
I have voted for candidates of all flavors over the years, but I would never claim to not get it when the majority of people feel compelled to vote for one of the two major parties given the political climate in the US. I am not advocating it mind you, just acknowledging it.
I would also not like to throw those voters out with the bathwater, they are the future of whatever party you, or I, or whoever wishes to develop a viable alternative for them. This issue speaks more to the failure of libertarians and 3rd party leaders and their surrogates to articulate their platform and bring people into the fold, then it does the people themselves being left with the obvious .
Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman
His frustration is understandable. You must understand.
Libertarian rhetoric is generally tapped by people whose chips are down...IOW...when their words mean little because they are not backed by the plausible reality of action following those words.
When in power, the tone changes for these once-libertarian-sounding political figures.
There's more to living up to libertarian principles than simply cutting taxes once in power....a lot more.
And then there were three
Iowa
joins Massachusetts and Connecticut as states offering marriage equality. Next up, Vermont?
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Not as subtle as I was looking for originally
In related news:
God Nearly Smashes Earth With Giant Spacerock"
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
I hope that's a parody site! n/t
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Poe's Law
:)
I stumbled across that site after googling "meteor nearly strikes earth"
I've ran across some people that sincerely think similar things, but in a less humorous fashion:
Biblical Slavery was completely ok.
Think the King James Bible is the definitive Bible and if one only knew ancient Greek, one should learn English to read the Bible correctly, the way it was meant to in the End Times.
The Earth is dome shaped with a glass-like dome on top.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,