News Cycle Roundup: 4/2/2009
Promoted by skymutt... I have no authority here, but nobody minds, right? These are good, should be good for open threads, and we are getting into the blue on the last open thread.
News Cycle Roundup time! Good morning! It's a wonderful 55 degrees here in NYC. And although I'd prefer mid-60s like the promise Spring brought growing up down south, I guess it won't be coming until May. Speaking of promises half fulfilled...
Obama: Make under 250K? As promised, your tax cut is here! I told you none of your taxes will go up..well, except these little taxes over here
.
Media Matters is outraged because Fox News adopted the Republican budget op-ed as a Fox Fact .
Erick Ericson via Redstate: Grab your guns! Beat a state official! Fight for phosphates in Washington State! So what if it's federalism at work. It's not how I like it though. Revolution! Aargh!
I really don't like when people criticize polls for "oversampling." Oversampling implies the pollster intentionally picks more Democrats (or Republicans) to get a result, but this assumes that the nation is 33% Democrat, 33% Republican, and 33% independent. I seriously doubt that's true.
Froma Harrop: Liberal Democrats, be advised: You really need your Blue Dog counterparts .
American Spectator: Dodd is a Dud .
Scientific American: Economics and Rational Human Thought don't mix well .
Broder: Obama finally may be showing a little assertion .
- Charles J's blog
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Comments :
What a joke.
This one is just plain silly:
Just because the Republicans wrote an op-ed describing the facts about their budget proposal somehow makes them not facts? I know the liberals think that this is true but how about some evidence to refute them reather than just stating bald assertions? The Media Matters piece doesn't even attempt to show that the FoxFacts aren't really facts. They just point out that list of facts originated with the GOP, the authors of the proposal. Wow, what a surprise that is.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Misleading Representation
The beef of MM is Fox News making the misleading issue of calling information reported in GOP press releases "Foxfacts"
Unless Fox News independently collaborated the "facts" they should have added "Claims to" after "GOP BUDGET"
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
And MM knows that FoxNews did NOT corroborate the facts how?
And if they had evidence of such why did they not include it in their piece?
Like I said, bald assertions with a leftist POV.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Lazy Journalism. Copy, Paste, then make slight edits
I highly doubt that Fox News independently checked the Dems and GOP's plans and came to the exact same difference in budgets.
The superfluous inclusion of "permanently" is kind of a strong indicator that Fox News just regurgitated what Paul Ryan wrote. No real need to mention that there are no sunset provisions. Kind of like having Tornado Sirens that go off every 5 minutes if there is no tornado.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
This one is dubious on its face.
Sure, Obama ousted the head of GM and most of the board. But who do you think he is going to replace them with? Republican fat cats, or Democrat ones? I suspect the latter. And like the old adage says, follow the money ... which is about to be flowing to Democrat fat cats.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4There may be a hidden reason
Wagoner was singled out for dismissal. Of course, Broder didn't elaborate on that possibilyt. I don't trust David Broder as anything more than a lazy peddler of conventional wisdom.
I don't know who, if anyone, can save GM. It's probably too late to make the major overhauls necessary to return the company to viability without shrinking it dramatically. Whoeve does get stuck with the crappy job, I hope they sell off their niche brands and find a way to make cars people want to buy.
The DailyKos detractors out there might enjoy this
Look how easily Markos gets sucked in by a blogger who massages his ego. On April 1, kos posted this
:
Kos, probably having in place a Google alert or some such to alert him whenever his baby DailyKos is mentioned on the blogs, came across this piece and was flattered by the fact that his "fine reporters from Daily Kos" were under consideration for column space at the San Francisco Chronicle. He must have been so bursting with pride that he didn't consider that the whole situation was odd-- that the Chronicle would hire Shaw, a longtime Chronicle detractor as an editor; that Shaw would badmouth the Chronicle repeatedly in an announcement that they had hired him; and that there were various other pretty obvious clues that the piece was an April Fools' joke.
Beyond Chron confessed to the hoax today
:
There were three or four folks in the comments that pointed out that the Beyond Chron post was probably a April Fool's hoax, including myself, but since Markos pretty obviously doesn't read the comments in his own diaries, he missed out on the clue he was missing.
At present, no correction has been posted on DailyKos regarding this, of course...
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
What about GM?
Hey guys,
If GM undergoes bankruptcy and has to lay off workers and possibly stop pension payments, what do we do with those folks? Are they on their own? I saw an article by Megan McArdle on the future bankruptcy
and I'm curious as to what you all think. Personally, I'm sorry, but I don't think the government can afford it. It's kinda like when I (supposedly) retire in 2042 and there's no Social Security for me although I've paid in. Isn't it important to have a "backup plan" (i.e., retirement accounts)?
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
The pensions payments get
The pensions payments get taken over by the tax payer at a reduced number by the PGA (Pension Guarantee).
People are still paying into social security, and as the economy recovers so will the ss fund. Social Security will still be around. If you want to enjoy your retirement, investing in bonds and IRA's will help boost your retirement income.
I'm only half stupid
On the Growth of Scientific Knowledge: Yeast Biology as a Case S
We've had a few discussions about scientific/technological progress, so I figure some of you will be interested in this article in Public Library of Science: Computation Biology : On the Growth of Scientific Knowledge: Yeast Biology as a Case Study
.
The conclusions are very preliminary, but it is encouraging to see quantification of this issue.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
the social basis of economic irrationality
I read that Scientific American article
, and it left me wondering about those people who intentionally undermine our rationality as a tactic for getting money from us. These people seem to be everywhere. I've been sucked into stupid deals a few times, and I basically view their sales tactic as fraudulent (though I would never be able to win a lawsuit).
I sometimes get scared that a large part of economy is based on this sort of soft fraud (actually, the banking crisis can be considered a case of soft fraud, since the banks won business by presenting themselves as risk-free institutions).
I'm learning how to spot and avoid the scams, but it's sick to think of these shysters preying upon the young, the stupid, and the elderly....and the pros know how much they can get away with before they get sued.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
Humans
are generally not rational beings. If we were, we would never get married or have children.
It is irrational to assume that someone merits pay where in one day, he makes more than his workers make in one year. Yet this meme has been justified over and over again as if it somehow represents virtue of the employer, and the stupidity of the worker.
We as a nation rebelled against the rich and powerful aristocracy that merely inherited wealth because of their name. It kept power in the hands of a an elite few for centuries. The founders purposefully taxed inherited wealth to avoid the corrupting influence of a wealthy aristocracy having too much power.
It is frightening to think that the powers that be, all looked the other way for decades while folks like Bernie Madoff were scamming the hell out of supposedly 'rational' people.
It is frightening to think that these shysters are celebrated, while their victims, the elderly, the young and the stupid, are blamed.
I'm only half stupid
rationality is not the full story
I agree that our rationality has severe limits due to limits on our knowledge and limits on our ability to process information; but as limitd as it is, it still has a great influence on our lives.
There are plenty of reasons to believe that marriage and child-rearing tends to make people happier, so they seem like quite rational paths to follow. Still, they illustrate the intrinsic limit of rationality--it doesn't provide motivation. Rationality can only suggest a path for achieving a goal given the reality of the world; both the goal and conditions of the world (such as our emotional responses to situations) are outside of rationality.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
I was just pondering
the biblical times, when the main motivation for reproducing was not particularly love, but for dominance, creating the biggest tribe. The fact the female children were looked as less of a blessing and sometime eliminated, says that motivations for happiness can vary.
I'm only half stupid
Forgive me, but is this a gag entry?
I have been watching some of your comments, and am finding it difficult to judge if you are making fun, or attempting honest criticism?
1st, in its purest form a fairly easy argument could be made that finding a partner, and reproducing are at the very heart, if not the heart itself, of the human experience. Even if one differs from that perspective, they are unquestionably two of the greatest motivations in this life.
2nd, Those who have afforded opportunity for others by creating large flows of capital, the Steven Jobs, Ted Turners, Fred Smiths deserve every penny they ever earned. If only there were more of them!
3rd, the founders did not "tax inherited wealth to avoid the corrupting influence of a wealthy aristocracy having too much power". That is a absolute fabrication.
4th, as far as Bernie Madoff, there will always be bad guys, we already have laws in effect to prevent these things, if anything this is just another failure and example of how poorly government operates.
5th, I have yet to see person #1 celebrating what Bernie Madoff did?
At whatever rate, whether it be levity, or serious analysis, I found your effort to be greatly lacking in substantive support for your assertions, rational basis for its conclusion, and even in the basic truths surrounding the "facts" offered.
Why post such ill reasoned clutter.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Because
Find a partner (sinigular) was not a part of the marriage covenent during biblical times. Go forth and multiply does not require a specific legal contract to lay with only one woman.
Kudos to the entrepreneurs, like Steve Jobs and Ted Turners. Their stuff would not sell if there was no demand for it. But an element of the wholly unethical has crept into the compensation that some folks get today, that seems out of all reason based on their poor performance.
Still a fiction persists that if you create capital, or supply, demand will follow automatically. This is not always the case, especially if you have a bad product, and have to either rely on predatory marketing practices that border on fraud, or deception to sell that product. I would reflect that the assumption that Credit Default Swaps, as a product, would only be handled by sophisticated people who need not be regulated was flawed reasoning, devoid of human awareness, that had grave consequences.
One can rewrite history. Scholars have spent many hours pursuing this past time to reflect their ideological view points. Some say Lincoln was a traitor and they write books which can be quoted as 'fact'.
Government operates poorly when it is neutered of authority as was the case with the 'hands off' look the other way SEC.
My ill reasoned clutter gives you cause to post. Let's celebrate. A toast to you. Cheers!
I'm only half stupid
I see
Quite the assortment of cynical appraisals you managed to weave together there.
You digress. What does biblical times and marriage covenants have to do with the fact that finding a partner, and raising a family is today, as it always has been, at the center of the human experience. Why do you contend people are irrational for doing so?
Why do you have such a problem with what people who own stock, are board members, or have some fiduciary interest in any particular corporation pay their managers? When companies hire CEO's they do so contractually, sometimes they turn out to be bad investments, most often they do not. Businesses have difficult times for a wide variety of reasons, should the CEO of a lumber company not receive his compensation because his company is struggling through low housing starts? Contrary to popular belief, running a large business is a complex activity that requires a high degree of skill. I think just by the virtue of the awareness brought about by the AIG type revelations boards all across America are rethinking this issue, but it is no more your concern than it is the governments.
This is one of those paragraphs that you throw out here that I find hard to deal with;
First of all if you're creating capital, you obviously do have something somebody wants.
As for supply, you must subscribe to a different business discipline than I if you sense around you the notion that one can create something the market doesn't want or need, and just expect good results. No business people I know or associate with operate on that precept.
As for the credit swaps, you must follow that trail of crumbs back to its origin to fully appreciate what happened there.
I am not particularly inclined too, but I am as just as aware as anyone interested in the history of our nation, and the constitution, Lincoln crossed some lines, worked in the margins, and in some instances disregarded his oath altogether. I would not classify that in the same category as 911 conspiracy theorists and those that claim there was no German holocaust in World War Two.
Government operates poorly all the time. Take education. Contrary to neutering, we have spent an infinite amount of money, assigned countless new programs, and given it many years, and all for not, public education in America is a disgrace. How about the IRS, or Social Security, I can not think of anything the US government does very well.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Ralph Nader and polygamist are missing out
Just so long as one ignores the exceptions.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
That's too bad
You have a very negative view of this country, wow! Such a god awful system of government.
I guess you could always move to another country because you seem to hate everything about America, which I assume includes the results of the last election and at least half the citizenry that doesn't agree with your position, that America basically sucks.
I just fundamentally completely disagree with your point of view.
Do you know anyone on social security? Their checks are never late. What a sh*tty job the government does there, huh.
I'm only half stupid
Do you know anyone on social
Heh... well that may be true, but how hard can it be to print off a check and send it out once a month? I should certainly hope they could do that.
Government did land a man on the moon 40 years ago with probably less computer firepower than is in your average wristwatch today. That was pretty impressive...
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Clearly you are a superficial thinker at best, and a political
prevaricator at worst.
Just in this short thread you have mis-stated "facts" you claimed support your deranged ideas about the founding fathers and taxes, and now not so subtly, if not purposely edited my entry to say "America is a disgrace" then went on to assert I hate America when as you well know I was addressing education. Do you think public education is a success? I mean the schools are open everyday, using your SS analogy, they must be, right.
I have an incredibly positive view of this country, I am a veteran, and loved this country enough to put my life on the line for it in Iraq. So your instant assessment of me is remarkably similar in its lack of basis as the rest of your musings.
As for the results of the election, I sat that one out, but I certainly wish President Obama well, especially now that we are all in so to speak!.
How do you "just fundamentally disagree with my point of view" when you have had to posts of exposure to it? I can only assume it was do to my critisism of the federal government? You think public schools are doing a good job huh? If so you are easily impressed.
As far as Social Security goes, isn't that great, they get checks out in a timely fashion! WooHoo! To bad those checks are NSF by any other standard.
But as I said, you appear to be a superficial thinker, so hey, as long as they keep printing money right?
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
A Belated Welcome
Welcome to Swords Crossed :-)
Or, as the often-missed Pico would say....welcome to the Andorra of political blogs!
Thanks. I have particularly enjoyed the common sense approach
you bring to the site.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
I cross paths with pico frequently on DKos...
He is on there at least some most days it seems like. He indicated once that he was considering returning here but that was several weeks ago
... I haven't pressed the issue, but it would be nice to have him in the mix here. He does real solid work there though.
Speaking of people who haven't been around much-- I thought I saw stinerman at Chipotle's the other day... dude looked like him so much that I even called out to him, but wasn't him. I don't remember faces too well sometimes.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
You cover so many subjects
at one time, it's hard to keep track. I might be broadbrushing your point of view a bit, but it hits all the right notes of the conservative talking points that have been drilled into people brains over the last several decades.
I just don't get the contradiction of railing endlessly against the US government as if it can't do one thing right, while out of the other side of your mouth you claim to love your country.
I'm only half stupid
Huh?
How's that a contradiction?
Especially you
You seem to utterly despise government or collectivism in all forms as the worst stifler of liberty on the planet.
Only the free markets are the fair arbiter of human worth, and the government is the biggest impediment to free market activity.
If government would just get out of the way and let the markets work their evolutionary magic, we would all be so much freer.
I'm only half stupid
OK,
The irrelevance of your bogus caricature of my POV aside,
I'll ask again:
How's that a contradiction?
Obviously since
you have asked twice it must not be. I stand corrected.
There is no contradiction.
I'm only half stupid
So I guess you're not going to answer
BTW, I asked twice...quite simply...because you didn't answer it the first time.
Please understand, I don't "claim" anything, I do love America.
Please think twice before you question a mans patriotism.
Funny you say I am covering so many subjects "you" have trouble keeping up? All I have done is respond to your statements.
Me, a conservative, no. I do believe in the founding principles, the framers intent and the constitution, I believe in a God of my own understanding, and I have spent a fair share of my life trying to protect and defend those things.
In following your reasoning, in order to qualify to love one's country, all that is necessary is to embrace all things the federal government does?
Nothing could be farther from the truth.
But again, this is yet another plate full of the shallow reasoning you dish up.
Social Security is awesome because my Aunt gets her check on time sort of thinking is a frightening quantifier for the success of that program. I think the fact that the program is arguably not constitutional, bankrupt many times over, inherently unsustainable, affords people a meager retirement compared to had those people just put the money in a savings account, SS costs more to administrate than you could even imagine, etc are a better barometer of how worthy it is.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
I do
sort of. I know you served your country's govt in the military, but I still find it baffling all the anti everything US as it relates to govt that comes from the mouths of conservatives. You hate the way our government works with a passion, yet are willing to fight to bring democracy to Iraq.
It just seems odd to me.
Here's a political example. Obama made statements in Europe that the US has been somewhat arrogant in the past. Now conservatives are asking why Obama is trashing America. Yet in your own words, you think our govt basically sucks. There is a disconnect if you get my drift.
It certainly is plausible to criticize policy, but to constantly bash the US government overall just seems a tad over the top, since supposedly the mission in Iraq was to bring a US style democracy?!?
I'm only half stupid
Add Hyperbole to that list.
I am puzzled, where do you get the idea I hate the government, and with a passion non the less? I never expressed anything of the sort.
I do not approve of the federal government expanding into roles it was not designed to play. I believe my neighbors and I can make better decisions about our kids education then some far away bureaucrat, I think saving for retirement is important and I resent being forced to participate in a costly, inefficient, mediocre plan like SS, the IRS is a monster, it is shockingly costly to run, our tax code needs to be simplified, and we need to limit the length of our legislators tenure.
So where do you get off making some blanket generalizations like I hate government?
We have a wonderful system of government that has given us generations of greatness, and led to the peaceful transfer of power for centuries, but we are slowly, little by little, letting it slip away.
I am interested in reversing that trend.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
A glaring contradiction.
Why do you feel that a social contract between people (marriage) is an acceptable place for state intervention and yet you have a problem with a CEO's pay being controlled?
What conservatives propose with regard to marriage and what liberals propose with regard to CEO pay are both state intervention in contracts. The only difference lies in your subscription to a set of rules that, in this country, are not mandatory. I fail to see how you can hold this position logically.
EDIT: I reread your entry again. Any maybe you don't feel that way. But I guess I'm not seeing the point in reffering to the human condition. It's as subjective to you as it is to ML.
I had not commented on the place of government in marriage.
I just found a string of peculiar ideas all threaded together and took them one at a time.
My response was to Miss Liberties assertion that people would be irrational to be married or have children, and my response was, finding a mate, and bearing heirs are part and parcel to the human makeup.
To answer your question, personally I would prefer if marriage was a personal thing, officiated by clergy or whatever those being married would like.
That's the way it was in America for a long time, right?
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
nice catch
I hadn't noticed the hypocricy there. Of course, each side should be able to easily explain why intervention is justified in one case but not the other...just as long as they aren't basing their argument on the "freedom to contract".
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
The intervention
with CEO pay is only in regards to those failing institutions that are receiving a tax payer boost. It's hard to imagine why a CEO should receive exhorbitant profits after tanking his buisness that is supposedly too big to fail.
If the government funded marriage contracts, then you could make the comparison to CEO pay.
We also don't tend to look at marriage contracts in the light of a for profit enterprise, or a business, whereas CEO pay is derived from business profits.
I'm only half stupid
If CEO pay is limited
The terms of the contract that would all the Federal government to do so, should be fairly explicitly mentioned in the contract.
For some companies, it would be a good day for karma if they got screwed over by a bigger entity if they didn't read the fine print.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Actually that is technically not so.
The US Government doesn't have any money to bail any companies out, they're flat broke, in fact worse, they are trillions of dollars in debt now, and they will likely soon be worrying about bailing themselves out if they're not careful.
Anyway;
The money is being generated by the government generating bonds, which will unfortunately do the very opposite of what we want and suck money out of the private sector, but the government will then issue those funds as so called "tax payer dollars".
Bad deal all the way around.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
I am just saying..
is a difference between a business contract and and a marriage license, in that one is for profit and the other is presumably not for profit.
I'm only half stupid
I can understand why an
I can understand why an individual might see that difference. But is it reasonable or appropriate for a government to deal with the difference? If the manipulation of CEO pay is acceptable then I see no reason (based on logic) that one could say that the government could not also manipulate a "marriage" contract.
You are using two different measures
one is pay for work, the other is not. It is a social contract without presumption of pay.
The intricacies of the social contract, can become intertwined with business contracts of a sort. For example, when one partner dies the other partner could legally receive a life insurance payment, but aren't there cases where those contracts are contested and broken. The 'government' in that case would be the courts. If the govt ruled that there was fraud of some sort then the insurance benefit or contract could be broken.
The govt manipulates the marriage contract with permission of one party if one party feels that the other party has caused harm, by seeking redress of divorce in the courts, or a bankruptcy of sorts.
So in the sense that the tenets of each 'contract' are broken, as in adultery or fraud, then in both cases the govt has been allowed to come in and disrupt the contracts.
It's kind of weird to think of marriage in that way, as a legal contract, but the more I think about it the more it seems appropriate. It is a business merger of sorts. You change your name and your legal status.
Still a marriage is different type of social contract than that of a multi-national corporation which involves many parties some of them international.
I don't see how you can make a correlation between the 'pay' scale for managing your marriage to the pay scale for managing a multinational corporation. One is obviously a business enterprise the other isn't.
I'm only half stupid
You are missing the point.
I (Me, Myself) can make that distinction. But should the government. Why can the government manipulate one over the other? If it can manipulate pay, why can't it manipulate a contract like marriage?
You can give the simplistic distinction of money. But that is far too variable from one contract to the next. Even within marriage or compensation for work. I suppose just saying," because I said so" is an answer. But it's a poorly reasoned one. And as long as you're okay with that. Fine. But I think that's pathetic...
It can
in both cases. That is what I just said.
Divorce is breaking a contract made valid by the government or the courts. Isn't that just a little bit more than obvious?
Yes the government (the courts) can reneg, renegotiate, change, contracts. They do it all the time.
Do you think courts as in bankruptcy courts are not a part of our legal system of government.
I'm only half stupid
Aren't you doing a sort of disingenuous bait and switch?
While courts are obviously part of the government and settling contractal disputes in accordance with the law (especially based on property rights) is a valid and constitutional duty of government, that doesn't seem to be the arm of "government" or the govenrment role in question here.
That wasn't the question
n/t
I'm only half stupid
then what was it?
...
If you do a little reading
you can find the answer.
I will make it easy for you, since you are again chosing to be intentionally obtuse.
I'm only half stupid
I'm not being obtuse
I was being serious and sincere.
You seem to assume the worst at every turn and sour discourse.
nevermind.
To most who agree with one or the other "intrusons...."
....Calling the 2 the same would make as much sense as saying why do doctors give out morphine to patients and not crystal meth, both are drugs.
Not knowing what to call or effectively describe the difference between morphine and smack, but thinking there is a difference.
Is not the same as not thinking there is a difference, but that it's just that one should be ok and one shouldn't.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
No. It's really not like that.
And if that's the best you've got then the arm of the discussion between me and you has come to an end.
Well, I suppose first I should ask if smack is marriage or pay?
How did we manage
to pay for WWll?
I'm only half stupid
And there it is.
This is, in all honesty, the kind of barrier that Libertarians run into that is so deeply frustrating. One cannot pretend to believe in freedom without accepting it entirely. Everyone else is just using it as some sort of false idol to rally the troops so to speak.
I totally fail to see any connection.
Why should the government be able to issue dog licenses but can not dictate the marketing strategy of Microsoft?
Why does President Obama not allow the banks to repay the funds and get out from under their control?
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Is that a serious question?
Serious though I did have my tongue in my cheek.
I think there is a fine line between where our freedoms require structure to operate within, and the point at which one invites anarchy and general chaos.
I fall just inside the former. I think we could do away with a large percentage of government beauracracy in the form of laws, codes, and ordinances, but we must have the basic structure the constitution frames for us. And though there is indeed a need and proper role for government, it is not meddling in the private sector, particularly in the markets.
I know libertarians nowadays are claiming a lot more intellectual ground, and that is good to see, I have always been an admirer, but it goes too far, I have never been convinced myself.
To suggest for one to believe in freedom, he is only able to find it at the definition of libertarianism is an obnoxious statement, and patently untrue.
Freedom is in the eye of the beholder, what looks like freedom to someone in Beijing would be a laughable definition in Hong Kong.
In America we have the Constitution to iliterate and protect our freedoms, that is why federal judges, legislators, and the President himself all take an oath to the Constitution, and that is why we must hold them to that!
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Freedom
One can certainly believe in freedom without thinking it is more important than everything else. It is not unreasonable to value safety over freedom, or the greater good over individual freedom, for example. Neither attitude means that you don't think freedom is important. I don't expect you, or any libertarian, to agree with either attitude, but I don't think it is at all fair to say that anyone who doesn't put freedom as priority number one doesn't believe in freedom at all.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
I think it is fair.
If you are willing to put things before it, it really has no meaning. After that kind of explanation it's really just a matter of perspective and you can get away with just about anything.
I guess we just disagree then
Some people would say that about God. I don't begrudge them to think that way, nor you to think the way you do. I think you are setting yourself up for a heck of a lot of frustration, though, if you are deeply frustrated when someone doesn't accept your perspective as the One Truth. If you seriously can't believe that someone who is not a Libertarian can still value freedom, well then, I don't think you are being reasonable. But I also doubt there is anything I can say that would change your mind.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Freedom must have the mechanisms in place to protect it.
So yes, those things would then be held in equitable esteem I suppose.
I appreciate your zeal, but to suggest life is either a libertarian free for all, or hopelessly doomed to irrational equiviction is a fairly pedestrian response to the logical reply our spiritual friend presented you with.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
These responses are very interesting.
I wonder if it's because of my yellow bar that people assume I actually want a free-for-all (which I don't. I recognize the necessity of law and of a body to enforce it.). I am no Rothbardian. But what I find most interesting, mainly in responses from the left, is the immediate rebuttle that insinuates that the acceptance of complete freedom will result in marginalization. Quite the opposite is true. I recognize the fine line that balances one individual's right and the interaction with another's rights. It's the same confusion the left makes when equating corporatism with free-market. It is a fundamental ignorance of what, exactly, the terms mean (outside of their current, popular use. We have already been discussing this).
My issues with interpretations of those freedoms arise when anyone of any party uses a sliding scale when choosing how to enforce it or manipulate it. i.e. marriage contracts vs. employment compensation contracts. This sliding scale is exactly what SL is calling for when recognizing that "safety" trumps freedom. And old people quotes aside that kind of argument is difficult to combat because it's most often used to paint the originator of the argument as uncaring or cold-hearted. And it's disingenuous. As I said, I personally get the difference between the two contracts. I just don't think it's the place of a government meant to protect liberty to officially respond to either in a fundamentally different way.
This is a shared response to SL and yourself, Centinel. Not because you have the same responses but because I'm lazy and can respond to both with the same explanation.
Fair enough.
I suppose though, given the fact that we both acknowledge there can never be absolute freedom, and our freedoms must be to some degree restrained by a body of laws, who do you propose sets the scale if not our elected government?
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Easier said than done, I suppose.
I would say that we set the scale. And our government enforce it. Time has caused a lot of the citizens of this country to forget that relationship and specifically that order.
By we you mean?
Our legislators? Some currently nonexistent body of citizenry? Please be more thorough in your explanation.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Point of contention
I am not recognizing that safety trumps freedom, I am recognizing that some people might think so, and that just because they think so does not mean that they do not think freedom is important, or something to strive for.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
I agree.
But what it boils down to is those "some people" have a poor understanding of the interaction of liberty among multiple individuals. I believe in our system of lawmaking. But I don't believe in people to do the right thing once those laws are in place. We must constantly educate each other, hopefully peacefully and with a positive attitude (as in places like SC), as to just what liberty means when stepping out of the individual perspective and applying it en mass to an entire citizenry.
I think that is why the first amendment is of the utmost importance and why it was the first amendment.
Quote.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Devil is in the details
Key words:
"Essential" "Liberty" "Temporary" "Safety"
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
True
I can only assume that magilson finds the phrase "essential liberty" to be redundant.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Yes, great quote.
...and oft-cited by the Left during the Bush Administration. But just because Benjamin Franklin said something does not mean that everyone in the world is required to believe the same thing. He also said "Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise," but I note that you made your comment at 1:30 AM.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
You think I need to get up even earlier?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Stick to your guns.
Watching you kiss libertarian ass after all that's gone on is nauseating.
Just saying.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Yet,
watching everybody kiss the ass of the Obama/Biden ticket as of this point is positively nauseating also.
Precisely, another excellent resson for GR to resume his old
ways, and give the site some diversity of opinion.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Yeah
<sarcasm>It's just been one big Obama love fest around here lately.</sarcasm>
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
there's nothing wrong with kissing
libertarian ass.
Not if you're a libertarian!
But if you're a die hard right wing conservtive like GR, its pretty ugly.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Sorry.
I don't think my quote was meant to kiss anyone's ass as much as it was to flip them the bird, only nicer. :) Besides, Republicans ... or more accruately conservatives, have always been champions of freedom. Take, for eaxmple, that we freed the slaves and were instrumental in the passage of civil rights legislation. A proud heritage.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Not the right pronoun...
I really don't like it when people use we in that context. Every time I hear a sports fan say "we won", etc. I just cringe.
No, you drank beer and ate pretzels.
They won.
Meh.
Minor semantics debate. Change "we" to "members of our poitical party" and we're good, no?
UPDATE:
Oh, and on the sports analogy, does the water boy get to say "we" won? How about the coach? How about the players who only warmed the benches?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4It's a team effort
Without the water boy squirting water into the player's mouths, there were be a pandemic of cramps.
Without the coach being a power hunger megalomaniac, the egos of some of the players would tear the team apart.
Without the bench warmers, there would be no practice squad.
And don't forget the trainers. Or the loser drunk guy in sector 7G yelling to the opposing OLB that "he's great big [non-straight guy]."
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
It could be worse
"We just not a good football team right now."
"We [struggling to move the ball]."
...
Dennis Northcutt
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
12th man
'Haven't you ever heard of the "12th man" in football?
It's what coaches say to make the fans feel more involved...implying that the fans somehow influence the outcome of the game. Some players get excited by the roar of the crowd, so it may help them play better. Alternatively, strategic roars may interfere with the opposing team's communication -- but I doubt that the crowd is coordinated enough to accomplish that.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
Apparently no one saw my point.
GR as well as every single living member of the Republican party had nothing to do with freeing the slaves. And I would argue 'till the cows come home that they aren't the same party anymore. So the pronoun "we" isn't even remotely fitting.
In other words,"What have you done for me lately?"
agreed
Watching Republicans hail Lincoln always strikes me as a bit odd. The Party of Lincoln is neither of today's parties.
The party of Lincoln was:
Extremely protectionist and corporatist
Generally more sympathetic to freeing slaves or being anti-slave
Believed in a strong central government.
..........
Granted, that's a very superficial list but you get the drift.
Was it a "conservative" party? No. Because it wasn't seeking to "conserve" much of anything.
Is it today's Party in spirit and ideology? Not really.
The real question is what party would today's Republicans belong to had they been born in the early 1800s rather than the later 1900s. That is not so clear. I also think the parties were more fragmented back then and not as neatly labeled as today.
But yes, on the sports analogy, it's also like talking about a team over a long period as if the players now have anything to do with the players from 1920s or 1930s. The team name is the same but that's it.
You are correct.
They need to drop that one.
Besides, If I were a R, I wouldn't care to be affiliated with that administration anyway.
Of course sadly most of us are taught the Civil War was fought to free the slaves in our great federally run public schools, so it could be good propaganda for all the mouth breathers out there in America today.
Take a look at your kids 5th grade history or social studies books, you will be stunned at what you'll find.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
That's debatable...
Sure, you could say the civil war was purely a economic or states' rights issue, but slavery was one of the central reasons for the Civil War, as marked in Jefferson Davis' Cornerstone speech, an excerpt:
It really is a well-put together collection of phrases, however wrong he was. Now, he later changed his argument, but you can't say it wasn't at least a reason to get the ball rolling on the war.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
You read into it what you're hoping to find.
I will differ to an article I wrote
some years ago.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Wow, you're something else dude...
I actually will concede that Lincoln was not all about freeing the slaves, as outlined in your article. But the South did go through great means to protect their institution. You assert that they were only fighting for independence and the right to their "property," as if said "property" wasn't human beings, which they were using to generate those wonderful profits. You make it seem that they were only arguing over machines that the North sought to confiscate. They were hiding behind semantics to protect their racism, where, if we are to read the words of folks like Alexander Stephens, they did not have any trouble hiding it until the 'revolution' started moving away from them. (see previous commentary above).
You then say..
Well, except the King of England did not see their subjects as less-than equal and less than human. Plus, if you read the "reasons for succession from the Union" staements from several of the states it's pretty obvious:
So in other words, if all men were indeed to be created equal, the southerners would become poor, but they'd have no choice but to become savage killers. (This of course, from the superior race).
This however, raises my eyebrows:
As a person who lived in Atlanta for six years, I'm actually a little alarmed at this statement. Do you think the South, had they won, would have sought equality among all men? Wasn't the war fought because of protection of godless money and materialism (tariffs)? Was the pre-Civil War south a "moral society"? Hard to believe, unless of course, one believes that the slaves weren't men and just property.
So again, my statement remains. It's extremely difficult to argue that slavery wasn't one of the central causes, (along with tariffs) for the Civil War. The two issues cannot be divorced.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Again Charles, you see what you wish and expound upon it.
But you miss the reality of it entirely.
Yes slavery was bad, everyone had gotten there already, it was a foregone conclusion.
You can choose, if it makes you feel good, to believe that the Northern soldiers, their wives and their politicians were so pious, so righteous, they were willing to kill their kin, and slaughter 600K of their fellow Americans - over slavery, but you would be wrong.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Count my eyebrows raised too
I can understand a little nostalgia, but some of this takes the cake!
And as to this
The entire Confederacy had a population of 9.1 million... The Atlanta Metro Area alone has a population of 5.4 million today. There was plenty of room for the denizens of the Confederacy to spread out... it tends to be pretty peaceful when your nearest neighbors are a half-mile away! Try employing the population of the South today without factories as well, but your idyllic antebellum plantations might be getting a bit squezed if you have100 million people living in a basically rural society without much industry outside of agriculture.
The North didn't change the South nearly so much as population growth by a factor of 10 and the passage of 150 years have done.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
I can empathize with the Southern take on the Civil War
up to a point. In fact, I can empathize with the enitre thing minus one big ugly wart:
The obtuse...almost coy...justification and defense of Slavery as part of their "way of life". Gimme a break.
Slavery was/is wrong on every level one can imagine. It is/was despicable and barbaric. I don't care about any defense of it on any grounds.
I'm the last person on the site (along with perhaps Maglison and Ka1igu1a) to find it appropriate to barge into another man's affairs on any matter and tell them what to do or what he can't do or how to live or not live. It's simply not my way. I find many a crusade to socially engineer others to the liking of someone else's values or push certain behaviors or outcomes on others by force to be undesirable (to say the least) and meglomaniacal. Slavery is perhaps the only exception I can think of at this moment to that rule. No law or custom or "way of life" can cloak or justify such a terrible insititution.
Had slavery been abolished before the war and the war had still happened anyway over other issues, I'd be much more sympathetic to the Southern cause and POV and minus slavery, I still am.
I once read a summary of a book by a historian that described what he felt would have been the alternate history of the US had the South won the war. Interesting counterfactual theories. One of these theories is that the Slavery would have died out on its own and voluntarily with Southerners well before the end of the Century...and for various reasons. His point however was that it would have been better this way because the bitterness of Southerners in the 1860s and 70s and onward toward the North over the manner in which abolition was shoved down their throats wouldn't have been there. It would have happened "naturally" and that would have made things better over the long run.
That's nice. And in a way, I wish it had happened more willingly with White Southerners for just that very reason. Perhaps racial tensions would be better up to this very day...as that author suggests. BUT, that softer alternate reality doesn't change the fact that those slaves should have been emanicipated at no later second than it happened...if not decades and decades sooner.
And any disgruntled Southerner to this day who disagrees with me about the slavery issue can kiss my white ass.*
* that is the only time I have ever used a spelled out word that borders on inappropriate. But I'll make an exception this one time. It's warranted.
John, slvery ws a dead issue. It was over, just as today the
Iraq War, in which I participated, and is wrong, is over (I pray). It is only a matter of winding it down.
Do you honestly believe the north fought the war because they were so enlightened they had to end the institution that was a done deal anyway, again, the south could have ratified the 13th amendment if that was there position. Slavery was a condition used as justification for the war, but it was little more than a populist propaganda, and was obviously not a sufficient condition for the north to fight the that war, so what was John?
To understand the Civil war one must remove Slavery from the equation.
And please may this be the last time I need say that of course, you, I, and the North and South had come to the understanding slavery was wrong. It is plentiful in the body of literature should one cares to look.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
My views on this matter are clearly stated in my
previous post...especially in the beginning of the post.
I have no quarrel with the Southern position...minus the fact that slavery was bundled into the package. I make no effort anywhere in my post to justify or explain the North's intent (particularly Lincoln's) to preserve the Union at all costs. I don't.
Like I said, I sympathize in part with the Southern view...minus the slavery. And no, I simply cannot detach the slavery issue from it....regardless of anything.
I think the South was justified in wanting to be rid of Northern influence as far as all commerce and social matters were concerned....minus slavery.
Slavery is a poison pill in my opinion in the southern argument.
Without slavery in the mix...regardless of the North's intent...I would be totally sympathetic to the Southern Cause.
I know that probably doesn't make sense to you. I know I danced around it in your opinion. But I think I more than met you halfway with what I've said. It's probably the sympathetic position you'll hear from most anyone north of the Mason-Dixon.
Smile, fair, we shll leave it at that.
Thanks for the input.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
No prob.
Not hard to retort...
...a group of people that never paid attention in their history classes... and the people that think Herbie Hancock signed the Declaration of Independence.
Maybe to the people who never really paid attention, know that slavery is inherently evil, and jumped to the conclusion that slavery was the main cause.
From what I recall, it was taught that slavery kept things at a simmer for a while, it was a big issue. Protective Tariffs got things to a boil.
What did you mean by:
South Carolina got impatient that the North had a different understanding of the agreement in which South Carolina willfully gave the Federal Government control of Fort Sumter.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
just a lighthearted comment
your most recent post was primarily about sports teams, so I discussed sports teams. I got your point about the Republican party. I didn't bother to discuss it because it is an obvious point to anyone but a partisan hack.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.