Weekday Open Thread

Is this the thread where we will at long last discuss all the important topics?  Time will tell...

Comments :

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Has anyone made plans

 to attend one of the Tea Parties?

 Does anyone have a clear idea of what they will be protesting?

  It seems like it would be easy to join in as a liberal as well and protest the big corporate monopolies, specifically the banks,  and loan companies, that  speculated the world economy into the ditch.

…………

Nah... I paid my taxes last night though...

...thus dumping several thousand dollars in the proverbial harbor, I'm sad to say :-(

………… parent

Thank You

 for doing your patriotic duty and supporting America!!! ;-

………… parent

Well, this proves it.

skymutt is a DINO.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

No... skymutt

 is a New Democrat. A 21st Century Democrat and a good American!

………… parent

Paying your taxes gets you that exulted status in the D party?

Well, if Obama's nominations prove anything, Skymutt is one of only a handful of Democrats who can claim that status!

Bud-Dum-Tissss.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

I'll give you a half point on that one...

I didn't buy Geithner's story on his taxes.  Once he became aware of the mistake he made on the one year's taxes, he knew that there were a couple of other years where he had the same income, and he didn't pay it.  I just had an audit this past year regarding certain income, and if I would have lost my contest of the audit, I would have had to amend a couple of other years' returns because the exact same situation applied to those years.  I was fully prepared to do that if I lost my appeal.

………… parent

Ummm, whose point was it?

Paying your taxes gets you that exulted status in the D party? Well, if Obama's nominations prove anything, Skymutt is one of only a handful of Democrats who can claim that status!

Bud-Dum-Tissss.

Why exactly did I make a reference to you being a DINO after ML parised you for paying your taxes?

<Begin Rodney Dangerfield Impression>

Respect, I don't get no respect.

</Begin Rodney Dangerfield Impression>

Did that really go over everyone's heads?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Heh...

I thought you were calling me a DINO for "supporting America" in general, not paying taxes in particular...

………… parent

McCain and Palin rift grows

How come when Republican superstars get to see each other close up for awhile, it seems like it ends up that they can't stand each other?

On Monday's "Tonight Show," Jay Leno asked the Arizona Senator to name the new guiding lights of the Republican party, and McCain was quick to rattle off a list of "young, dynamic" governors around the country.

Palin wasn't one of them.

McCain singled out Lousisana Gov. Bobby Jindal, Florida Gov. Charlie Christ, Minnesota's Tim Pawlenty, and Mitt Romney, McCain's chief rival for the Republican presidential nod in 2008.

In case anyone missed his conspicuous omission of Palin, McCain then added, "And I've left out somebody's name, and I'm gonna hear about it."

www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/04/14/2009-04-14_john_mccainsarah_palin_rift_grows_wider_as_sen_leaves_former_running_mate_off_li.html

Picking the robotic, dorky Bobby Jindal-- the guy we saw deliver that epically hilarious SOTU response-- as "dynamic" and a "guiding light" while throwing Palin under the bus... that's gotta leave a mark! 

Gee, that's going to be a tough moment in the 2012 primaries when one of Palin's opponents brings up the fact that the person who hand-picked her as a running mate in the last election ended up thinking that she was unfit for leadership once he got to know her.

:-)

…………

Your keen partisan sense of the divisions within the R party

and the impending damage it will cause your enemies is impressive.

Keep up the good work.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Just keeping it balanced here, friend

Notice, though-- I don't have to lie to find something embarrassing for the R's ;-)

………… parent

I m not lying, and you should use more care in calling

someone something like that.

I simply do not believe the one account you cling to, no one else seems to either, it would appear TC is the one questionable player here.

But I realize you fail to see it that way. So be it.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Your lie got called a lie.

Deal. 

I'm not saying you're a bad person or anything, but when you continued to say that Obama "flew in" the chef when it was clear that he had not and there was no reason to believe that he had, you lied. 

………… parent

Actually, here is a perfect place to prove my point.

You are right, the election is less than 6 months gone by, and the Maverick just flat out forgot the hard work and life Sarah Palin brought to his failed potus candidacy. He is an asshole in my book, and should just fade away somewhere.

But he also forgot my preference, the Honorable Mark Sanford of SC!

So maybe he's just senile and not a jerk off after all?

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

You are right, the election

You are right, the election is less than 6 months gone by, and the Maverick just flat out forgot the hard work and life Sarah Palin brought to his failed potus candidacy. He is an asshole in my book, and should just fade away somewhere.

This is what Palin fans don't get, John McCain lifted Palin into the big three of Republican 2012 presidential canidates by picking her to be VP. Palin would just be another small state governor ( with perhaps the advantage of being a woman), if McCain hadn't picked her. McCain can not undo the benefit he's done to Palin by not mentioning her on Jay Leno. Palin fans should be very grateful to McCain, he likely damaged his canidacy to exalt appease you guys in picking Palin, which means its you Rushies that are the A-holes.

………… parent

Fatally flawed premise.

Republican superstars

McCain was NEVER a Republican superstar.  He was completely over-shadowed by Palin and she's not even on HIS list of up and comers.  It's just more sour grapes from a big loser.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

If I was a Republican

 *shudder* I would support Huckabee.

………… parent

Heh

He was completely over-shadowed by Palin

Not always overshadowed in a good way though-- The $150k shopping spree, troopergate, the Kouric interviews, etc....

………… parent

You're a liberal, so

it may seem that way to you.

But most people don't give a shit about troopergate, know big politics means big money, even for clothes, (Watch E channel sometime), and understand it is McCains fault Palin wasn't prepared.

By the way, SHE IS NOW.

Boo!!!

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Palin's inexperience just

Palin's inexperience just helped to cast a shadow over the one area McCain was beating Obama on a 2 to 1 basis. I don't think this helped at all among moderates. Palin definitely helped enthusiasm among Rushbots, but Rush had already endorsed McCain, so they would have grudgingly gone to the polls anyway.

………… parent

Well John

Why did he pick her?

She didn't pick him.

McCain selected her, and he didn't even do her and the campign the courtesy of telling her she was on the short list, so she went from A to B in a flash, how would anyone could have done better.

She appeals to a broad cross section of the right, not just Rushbots. She was the only thing that gave anyone any reason to think the election could be close.

So I am not sure where your dislike of her stems from, but she did more to breathe live into an otherwise dead ticket than any other choice could have.

I don't luv her myself, but please,  little credit where credit is due dude.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

There was

We believe that the best of America is not all in Washington, D.C. ... We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit, and in these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real America, being here with all of you hard working very patriotic, um, very, um, pro-America areas of this great nation." --Sarah Palin, speaking at a fundraiser in Greensoboro, N.C., Oct. 16, 2008

Shut up shut up shut up, Ms. Smarmy Devisive Holierthanthou.  That was a hundred times worse than any condescending "cling to guns or religion" thing Obama said.  You don't get to claim swing-state rural areas are more pro-American than Manhattan or San Fransisco simply because they might be electorally more important.

I remember her quipping something along the lines of "just once could [Obama] root for America to win".  She got huge cheers for it too.  Would it surprise you that implying we on the left want America to lose might not exactly ingratiate her to us?

Oh, and there were all those other embarassing interview clips that showed her woefully unprepared for office.  That annoyed me about both her and Bush in 2000: you don't have to run, or accept the VP nod, simply because you can.  The way they dismissed their own lack of curiosity about world affairs was infuriating.  In contrast, I did not feel that way about Cheney or McCain.

………… parent

Funny.

You don't get to claim swing-state rural areas are more pro-American than Manhattan or San Fransisco simply because they might be electorally more important.

Well, that's not the reason she is claiming it.  So you are arguing with a strawman.  She is claiming it because people in rural America talk about how great the US is, whereas the people in the big cities talk about everything that's wrong with America.  So it all boils down to this:

- Talking about the greatness of America = Pro-America.

- Talking about the faults of America = NOT Pro-America.

Hopefully that clears up your confusion on this point.

Would it surprise you that implying we on the left want America to lose might not exactly ingratiate her to us?

I don't think that she was trying to ingratiate herself to you.  The left would never vote for her in the first place so why waste time on them?

The way they dismissed their own lack of curiosity about world affairs was infuriating.

This is amusing to me, actually.  While Bush was in office all the President talked about was foreign policy issues.  Iraq.  Afganistan.  Iran.  North Korea.  Etc.  Now that Obama is in office all of that stuff is completely off the radar.  All he wants to talk about is the domestic economy, palling around with Jay Leno, taking over private corporations, etc.

Obama is focused on domestic issues simply because he lacks the intellectual capacity to think outside the borders.

 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

So it all boils down to a falsehood, then.

So it all boils down to this:

- Talking about the greatness of America = Pro-America.

- Talking about the faults of America = NOT Pro-America.

If you actually believe this, and these days it can be hard to tell what you actually believe, perhaps you should make yourself aquainted with a concept known as constructive criticism .

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Nothing false about it.

Focusing on the good things about America is being PRO-America.  Focusing on the broken things about America is not.  This is not a difficult concept.

a concept known as constructive criticism

Except there isn't anything constructive about it.  Saying that America is just like Hitler, and Stalin, and Kim Jong Il is not constructive, it is destructive.  This too is not a difficult concept.

UPDATE:

Stanley Fish was apparently a pretty smart fellow .  :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Hmm.

Does Fish's thesis apply equally to your criticism of President Obama, the Democratic Party, and Liberalism in general?

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

No.

Because I have made it abundantly clear that all these outrageous rants are merely my mimicing the tactics of the left.  So I don't necessarily mean what I am saying when I make these outrageous statements and, therefore, I am not criticizing my own interpretation of things but, rather, that of my opponents.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Hmm...

... it's always just fun and games until someone puts an eye out!

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

Who?

And how many people are saying that America is just like Hitler (well, apart from you saying Obama is just like Hitler), etc.? The vast vast majority of the left-leaning population have complaints about America, but they are not the hyperbolic BS that you are attributing to "people in the big cities." Can you even name a single reputable left-wing personality that spews criticisms of America that are clearly not said with the intent to make things better? Who on the left would you honestly consider anti-American? Name me some names. I know I could come up with some bile-spewing right-wingers that supposedly represent what Palin called the Real America. But I don't believe that they do represent the Real America. They are fringe idiots who sometimes have a frighteningly large following, though.

The problem with BS rhetoric like what you and Palin are putting forth here is that you are generalizing a tiny tiny fraction of a population to a huge swath of people. It's crap. It's bad enough when pissant nobodies like a GoRight  ( :P ) say sh%t like this, but when a vice-presidential candidate does it? What a crock!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

I should have thought my reference was obvious.

But I guess not so here you go:

Durbin is NOT some left wing extremist.  He is a leader within the Democrat Party.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Okaaay

So your contention is that Durbin said this because he is anti-American, and not because he wanted to stop these abuses from happening under the American flag? I encourage you to read the full statement and challenge you to defend your absurd position. Here's an important snippet:

To win the war on terrorism, we must remain true to the principles upon which our country was founded. This administration's detention and interrogation policies are placing our troops at risk and making it harder to combat terrorism.

Yeah, sounds real anti-American to me.

Furthermore, since Durbin said this about a few of the worst examples of American soldiers, and you equate it to saying it about all of America, then apparently to you, America is the same as the worst of us. Not very pro-American of you.

And sadly, Durbin is merely recognizing the fact that Americans are now responsible for doing deeds that in past years we have been responsible for prosecuting the doers of, and bringing them to justice.

I know you still refuse to admit that what we have done is in fact torture, even in the face of the recently released memos. I think you are being willfully blind. But the fact is, the United States has prosecuted war criminals for doing the very acts that we ourselves have now done. So were we wrong then, or wrong now?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

He was clearly an undeniably saying ...

that the USA was, when he stated it, just like those regimes.  There is really no wiggle room on that point.  He clearly says the USA is like Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot.  Yes, I consider that statement to be anti-American regardless of his purpose.

And no, I don't believe that he was worried about making America better he was making those statements as a means of attacking his political opponents.  That's not the same thing at all.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

100% incorrect

He clearly says the USA is like Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot.

No, he clearly doesn't. Even if you completely ignore the context of the entire speech, which you obviously wish to do, what he says is that what these few Americans have done is like what was done by Nazis, Soviets, etc. If you take into account the context, like any person arguing in good faith should do, then it is obvious that what Durbin is saying is that it is the unilateral decision by the Bush Administration (particularly Rumsfeld) to stray from American values, which is the problem, not American values themselves. His speech is in fact the antithesis of anti-Americanism.

And no, I don't believe that he was worried about making America better he was making those statements as a means of attacking his political opponents.  That's not the same thing at all.

This is nonsensical. By that logic, if Obama declared martial law and grabbed all your guns, then any Republican saying anything against it would be simply attacking a political opponent, not trying to really change anything? Anything said by any politician against a bad policy is just a means of attacking political opponents? Or does this only apply to Democrats attacking Republican policies?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Your entire premise ...

is founded on the fundamental assumption that Durbin is making these statements in good faith (i.e. that he really means them and they should be taken at face value).  You are inclined to make that assumption whereas I am not.

The reverse will also be true.  When I point out statements made by Republicans where they argue that the US did not torture anyone within the legal definitions of the terms, we have to make a fundamental judgement as to whether those officials are operating in good faith or not.  In this case I am inclined to believe that they are whereas you (presumably) are not.

So, in the end, it all comes down to a judgement call as to their intent in either direction.  In other words it becomes a subjective matter of opinion.  So in this case I think it best to leave things at we should simply agree to disagree and move on since neither of us is likely to change our opinions on these points.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Heh.

I know you still refuse to admit that what we have done is in fact torture, even in the face of the recently released memos. I think you are being willfully blind.

It's not just me that disagrees:

Attorney: Justice Memos Prove U.S. Did Not Torture

Attorney David Rivkin's argument disputes claims that the Department of Justice memos prove the Bush administration violated anti-torture laws.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

If it walks like a duck...

...quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, tastes like a duck, and shares at a minimum 98% of its DNA with a duck....  well, that must mean it's technically a goose according to the very strict definition of 'duck' our lawyers have developed so very carefully, and anyone who says differently hates America.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

Ah, the appeal to authority again. ;)

So Fox News found a former Reagan-Bush Administration lawyer to defend Bush II's torture policies. Shocking.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

I am not appealing to authority here, per se.

I have made my own arguments as to why I believe that we didn't torture anyone based on statements made by those in a position to know the facts.

In this case I am merely pointing out that I am NOT being willfully blind and that this is NOT merely a self-delusion on my part.  There are legitimate arguments to be made in defense of my position and I am not the only one making them.  Assign as much credibility, or lack thereof, to Rivkin as you like.  Decide for yourself whether he is operating in good faith when he makes these arguments, or not.

You know where I stand on these points.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Ok, but if the founders were to catch a POW

Which like it or not is what these detainees are, even though we now call the war on terror an overseas contigincy, etc., and they thought the individual was privy to some information, they would have put a knife to their throat or threatened to shoot them.

In  war interrogation is a necessary evil to save lives and end the conflict, every combatant does it, and we do it more humanely then anyone else.

Only 3 people were water boarded, and one produced incredible intelligence. The rest were isolated, left nude, or whatever, but come on, we're not stoning them, cutting off body parts, or doing permanent damage.

This whole issue is  crock.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Oh sure

Let's appeal to a bunch of 18th century slave-owners for our 21st century moral authority! (Said half in jest, because I know how much dissing the founders sticks in the craw of certain folks, but half seriously, because moral attitudes have in fact evolved in the past 250 years.)

Virtually all of the techniques that are outlined in these memos are things that the US would condemn (and has condemned in the past), or even prosecute, were they being performed by another country. I see no good reason to suddenly think they are okay-fine now.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Oh ya what a bunch of immoral assholes our founders were.

Dude? You just slipped down a few rungs closer to ML status.

I am not advocating torture, I am acknowledging it is  fact of life.

And the CIA etc., in situations of dire National Security always have, and always should have that option.

This is a big boy world we live in, unfortunately things like this have become dinner table fodder for the Hollywood set, and instead of worrying how we can best save US citizens lives, we re worrying about whether the detainees are given enough Korans and prayer rugs (so they can pray for our destruction), or their clothes are culturally appropriate.

They live better in our Maximum Security Prison, then they ever have lived before.

This sort of thinking, instead of making us respected in the world as you would have us believe, is in fact turning us into the laughing stock of the world.

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Lighten up

What part of "half in jest" don't you get? Yeesh.

I am not advocating torture, I am acknowledging it is  fact of life.

So it sounds like you are acknowledging that what we have done is torture, but that it is still OK in some circumstances? Just trying to get a read on your actual position, here.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Always always always

 ignoring that hard core physical torture does not produce correct information.

 We did prosecute Nazi War criminals for.......... torture. Therefore the US using torture is rankly hypocritical. Get it.

 We can acknowledge that men beat their wives too in this big boy world we live in where the man has a dire need to be the national security leader of his household. He just had to beat his wife. Hopefully he does it in the basement where he won't get caught.

 I am absolutely certain that you don't understand the principles here and never ever will.

Torture produces bad information.

If I torture you would you be willing to say that torture is wrong to get me to stop?

………… parent

and.....

 he retracted his statement after the right took the statement out of context and went crazy (again)!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-06-21-durbin-apology_x.htm

The right has made the same claim about Obama and liberals, with a so called intellectual heavy weight of the conservative movement, Jonah Goldberg, penning a novella, 'Liberal Fascism'.

 Many so called serious thinkers have compared Obama to fascism. Signs at teaparties pictured Obama as Hitler. Public service is targeted as nazi education camps. Glenn Beck claims the end of the world, with fascism on the rise, discussing Obama's policies with a huge screen depicting the nazi army replete with swastika's marching in the background.

 I see no retraction of these ugly claims by the right wing intellectuals,  that Obama is Hitler, instead we hear clapping in the background. 

 Your argument is pathetic.

………… parent

This is correct.

And this is exactly why I believe that he was merely throwing out a political firecracker (i.e. the Durbin equivalent of a GR firecracker) when he said it.  If he truly believed what he said he would not have retracted the statement.  This act on his part fundamentally undermines SL's position above , IMHO.

As to the lack of retractions in the other direction?  Well perhaps this is because those who made the statements are fundamentally acting in good faith and thus they actually believed what they said and therefore there is nothing to retract.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Nonsense

The retraction actually reinforces my position. He specifically apologized to those who misinterpreted his words (such as yourself), and stated that he never intended disrespect for U.S. soldiers around the world.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

And thus acknowledging ...

stated that he never intended disrespect for U.S. soldiers around the world.

that he had, in fact, done so.  Otherwise there was no need for an apology.  Either way he was wrong for saying it.

Here are a few links this inspired me to dig up to remind everyone what Durbin is accusing us of being:

Perhaps you accept what actually occurred at Abu Graib to be an accurate and appropriate comparison to what is described in the links above, but I do not.  Even the use of waterboarding where the individual is never in danger of actually dying falls WAY short of these atrocities.  Yet Durbin claimed they were basically equivolent.

I reject that notion not only as a defense of our military but because it inherently diminishes the true horror that Stalin and Hitler inflicted on people and on such a massive scale.  Note that even in this case where individuals have been found to be in violation of the law that they have been tried for their offenses.  This is not counter to the American way, this IS the American way.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Meh

All it acknowledges is that some people misinterpreted that he had done so.

What happened at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere is obviously not in the same league as what went on in Nazi Death Camps, etc. But that was not what Durbin said, either, despite your repeated attempts to mischaracterize his statements. What he said is that these things that happened would not be out of place in Nazi Death Camps - there would be no surprise that such abuses took place at places like that. It is surprising and unfortunate that they took place at American facilities, though. That is what Durbin said, paraphrased. Perhaps you didn't find it surprising or unfortunate, which just shows that you have a lower opinion of American soldiers than does Dick Durbin.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

You are free to disagree.

What he said is that these things that happened would not be out of place in Nazi Death Camps - there would be no surprise that such abuses took place at places like that.

I fail to see any meaningful distinction between this phrasing and mine.  Either way he is drawing an equivalency between what happened at Abu Graib and what the SS and the Wehrmacht did in WWII.  Equivalency in this context does not mean 100% every act the same.  Equivalency means same level of moral repugnancy and deserving of the same level of social contempt.  I don't agree that the things done at Abu Graib are equally as morally repugnant nor deserving of the same level of social contempt as were the acts committed by Hitler and Stalin.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

You are being...

... willfully obtuse in your excessive parsing, and yet again the real issue winds up being obscured by an endless tit for tat argument over 'what the meaning of "is" is'. 

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

Well then explain to me the substantive difference.

Because I don't see it ... not because I am being willfully obtuse but because I don't see any substantive difference.  Perhaps you can enlighten me?

For example, I wouldn't be surprised if the guards at the concentration camps pulled little girls hair.  Does that mean that pulling a little girl's hair is torture reminiscent of the holocaust?  That seems to be the argument that SL is making.  Or at least is making to justify the validity of Durbin's statement.  Personally I don't think that the pulling of a little girl's hair should in any serious way be likened to the atrocities of the Third Reich.

So we now have a spectrum defined.  On one end is the Third Reich.  On the other end is pulling a little girl's hair.  Abu Graib is somewhere in the middle.  I argue that the actions taken at Abu Graib were somewhere closer on that spectrum to pulling a little girl's hair than to the crimes of the Third Reich.  Apparently Dick Durbin believes the reverse.  But if he doesn't believe that the actions taken at Abu Graib are at least "close to" the actions taken by the Third Reich then why is he even bring them up?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

It crosses the line.

That is why it is important. Yes, there is a spectrum between pulling a little girl's hair and the crimes of the Third Reich. Abu Ghraib does indeed fall somewhere along that spectrum. Somewhere along that spectrum there is also a line that one must draw which indicates what is acceptable treatment for modern military prisoners. (Personally, I'd say that line falls even before pulling a little girl's hair, but I won't expect you to accept my higher standard.)

What Durbin is saying is that what happened at Abu Ghraib is on the same side of the line as the crimes of the Third Reich - the bad side. Get it? The same side of the line. That is the "equivalency" that is being made. The point he is making is that this treatment is not acceptable and must be stopped. The point of bringing up Nazi Germany or Pol Pot or whatever is to provide examples of events that were clearly over the line, to establish which side of the line he believes the recent events are on.

Let's put it in general terms. If my goal is to present my opinion of something that is maybe good or maybe bad, does it make any sense to say that it is like some other thing that is also morally questionable? Does that let you know what my opinion is? Now if I say it reminds me of something that is clearly very bad, doesn't that make it much clearer how I feel about it?

Was this a bit of hyperbole on Durbin's part? Sure, that's why he apologized later. Doesn't change the fact that his intent was to express his outrage that the line had been crossed, and that he wanted it stopped because it goes against his idea of what America should be.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Well now, perhaps we are getting somewhere ...

Was this a bit of hyperbole on Durbin's part? Sure, that's why he apologized later. Doesn't change the fact that his intent was to express his outrage that the line had been crossed, and that he wanted it stopped because it goes against his idea of what America should be.

OK, fine.  I don't have any problem with this as long as it works both ways.  So now let's test whether that is the case.

That is why it is important. Yes, there is a spectrum between pulling a little girl's hair and the crimes of the Third Reich. Abu Ghraib does indeed fall somewhere along that spectrum. Somewhere along that spectrum there is also a line that one must draw which indicates what is acceptable treatment for modern military prisoners. (Personally, I'd say that line falls even before pulling a little girl's hair, but I won't expect you to accept my higher standard.)

I agree, we are arguing about where the line is AND we agree that the line is somewhere between pulling a little girls hair and the atrocities of the Third Reich.*  To a large extent that is my point in all of this and I argue that the actions at Abu Graib are legitimately debatable on whether they actually cross the line or not (specifically I am thinking of the pictures of the prisoner pyramid and the dog collar thing).  Durbin didn't acknowledge this point at all until he was properly called out on it and subsequently apologized.  Again, the fact that he apologized is a tacit admission that he did something wrong by comparing the Abu Graib incident to the Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot.

What Durbin is saying is that what happened at Abu Ghraib is on the same side of the line as the crimes of the Third Reich - the bad side. Get it? The same side of the line. That is the "equivalency" that is being made. The point he is making is that this treatment is not acceptable and must be stopped. The point of bringing up Nazi Germany or Pol Pot or whatever is to provide examples of events that were clearly over the line, to establish which side of the line he believes the recent events are on.

OK, fine.  Using this very same line of reasoning what am I (or anyone else) doing when we compare the actions at Abu Graib to the pulling of a little girl's hair?  Or stubbornly shouting "there was no torture!"  Am I merely using hyperbole to illustrate that I believe that the Abu Graib incident does NOT cross that line?  And does my having done so justify people on the left to then claim that "I support toture?"  Are they not doing exactly what you are complaining about here of me, only in reverse?  Hmmm.

Ironically, it was Rush Limbaugh that made the most apt comparison in all of this.  He likened the naked pyramid and the dog collar to a fraternity hazing incident.  I think that is about the same place on the spectrum as the Abu Graib stuff (there may be some exceptions, I think that there was an accidental death and obviously that is more serious).  But what we saw and what Durbin was responding at to the time were the pictures.

Is it believable that a fraternity might force new members to do something like strip down and form a pyramid, possibly even have a girl there to put a dog collar on them, and take a few photos?  I think that is completely believable just like you claim that it is believable that the Nazi's would have done this with prisoners.  But which of these is more believable of being REPRESENTATIVE of the TYPICAL THINGS one would expect of fraternity hazing versus the group that sent 6 million people into gas chambers?  Are you seriously going to argue that a naked pyramid is closer to the holocaust than it is to a fraternity hazing?  I doubt it.

So the question comes down to, does something roughly comparable to a fraternity hazing incident cross the line into being full blown torture?  I seriously don't think so.  The primary distinction between the two in my mind is that the frat boys could, arguably, be considered to be participating voluntarily whereas the prisoners at Abu Graib were not.  OK, fine.  So I will agree that Abu Graib lies somewhere between fraternity hazing and the crimes of the Third Reich, but in my mind it is very clearly more in the neighborhood of a fraternity hazing and very far removed from what happened at Auschwitz.  Do you agree or disagree?

Now does this line we are discussing fall BETWEEN Abu Graib and fraternity hazing?  Not in my mind it doesn't.  I don't even think it is close.

-------------------------------------------

* Gee, what's the probability of someone actually using that sentence?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Good ol' Rush

But what we saw and what Durbin was responding at to the time were the pictures.

I guess you still haven't bothered to read the context of Durbin's speech . So here, I'll spoon feed it to you:

"On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food, or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . . On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor."

Oh, those frat boy antics!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Meh.

Durbin's speech was nothing more than a political hatchet job.  Like all good hatchet jobs there are elements of truth woven throughout.  But that does not make the tenor or substance of the points being made accurate.  Almost every paragraph is designed to distort those truths in some way.  Why distort the truth?  For political gain, pure and simple.

The quoted passage is from some nameless, faceless, FBI agent in some unidentified report.  In my mind that makes its credibility completely suspect.  It is certainly possible that this is a true and fair account of what the report stated, but given his other distortions and half-truths throughout the speech I sincerely doubt it.  I fully suspect it is a cherry-picked paragraph taken out of context to put an edge on his hatchet, assuming that it is not an outright fabrication on his part which is certainly possible and some woudl argue plausible in this case.

But, even so, let me follow-up with even that description by asking you which of the following you believe are inconsistent with common frat boy behavior and/or franternity hazing rituals?

1) Playing loud rap music.
2) Lying semi-conscious on the floor in the fetal position.
3) Urinating and/or defecating in inappropriate places or on themselves and/or others.
4) Tying new memebrs up and/or otherwise restraining them.
5) Forcing new members to endure the cold to the point of being uncomfortable and shaking.
6) Forcing new members to endure the application of heat insufficient to cause harm.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Oh please

It is certainly possible that this is a true and fair account of what the report stated, but given his other distortions and half-truths throughout the speech I sincerely doubt it.

Given the recently released memos written by the Bush Administration lawyers themselves, it is patently ridiculous to suggest that this is a fabrication or distortion. We know that this kind of treatment was endorsed by the Bush Administration. What exactly are you claiming are "his other distortions and half-truths throughout the speech?"

And the fratboy comparison is inappropriate primarily because anyone subjected to this treatment in a fraternity hazing is free to leave if they want to. They know it will end soon enough, and they voluntarily chose to join the fraternity in the first place. Is rape the same as consentual sex in your mind?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Given the recently released

Given the recently released memos written by the Bush Administration lawyers themselves, it is patently ridiculous to suggest that this is a fabrication or distortion. We know that this kind of treatment was endorsed by the Bush Administration. What exactly are you claiming are "his other distortions and half-truths throughout the speech?"

Do the Bush memos actually recount the incident that Durbin is recounting?  Please point me to the source.

His distortions and half-truths are in almost every paragraph in the speech.  I won't recount them all here, but lest you think I am just stonewalling here are a couple of examples.

Unfortunately, without even consulting Congress, the Bush administration unilaterally decided to set aside these treaties and create their own rules about the treatment of prisoners.

The Bush Administration didn't do anything unilaterally.  Congress was briefed on everything they were doing.  Neither did they "set aside the treaties."  The fact that we have memos issues legal opinions related to the boundaries set forth in those treaties is hardly "setting them aside."

We have held prisoners in every armed conflict in which we have engaged. The law was clear, but some of the president's top advisers questioned whether we should follow it or whether we should write new standards.

No one questioned whether we should follow it.  They always intended to follow it.  That's why they asked for a legal opinion on where the boundary actually lies because the convention text is horribly ill-specified on these points.  It is a completely subjective definition and is clearly open to personal interpretation.

Alberto Gonzales, then-White House chief counsel, recommended to the president the Geneva Convention should not apply to the war on terrorism.

Gonzales didn't "recommend" anything.  He issued a legal opinion.  Saying that terrorists are not POWs is not the same as saying the Geneva Conention can, or even should, be ignored.

There is a lot of confusion about that so let me repeat it. The Geneva Conventions do not give POW status to terrorists.

Well, at least we agree on this point.

For example, they have even argued in court they have the right to indefinitely detain an elderly lady from Switzerland who writes checks to what she thinks is a charity that helps orphans but actually is a front that finances terrorism.

This is the first I have heard of this.  Are we really holding an "elderly lady from Switzerland indefinitely?"  Please point me to an independent source for this claim.

I suspect, but have not verified nor will I bother at this point because it is not worth the time investment required, that his claims regarding the Supreme Court decisions were cherry-picked as well.  If you want to dispute my suspicions by digging up the court records, feel free.  I'll read them if and when you provide them.

During the Civil War, President Lincoln, one of our greatest presidents, suspended habeas corpus, which gives prisoners the right to challenge their detention. The Supreme Court stood up to the president and said prisoners have the right to judicial review even during war.

Let me read what that Court said:

"The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people, equally in war and in peace, and covers with the shield of its protection all classes of men, at all times, and under all circumstances. No doctrine, involving more pernicious consequences, was ever invented by the wit of man than that any of its provisions could be suspended during any of the great exigencies of government. Such a doctrine leads directly to anarchy or despotism."

A fine example of using the truth to mislead, as you like to refer to it.  I have no doubt that if I track it down the court actually said this.  The part that he doesn't mention but clearly wants to imply is that Lincoln was thus forced to reinstate Habeas Corpus.  Lincoln's actual response?  Nothing.

Lincoln and Habeas Corpus

As with Dred Scott, Taney stuck to the letter of the law and read the Constitution strictly. Lincoln sought refuge in a higher law: the law of survival. He gave his defenders grist for their propaganda mills by claiming that his suspension of the privilege of the writ of habeascorpus did not violate any law. According to Lincoln, the Constitution was "silent as to . . . who, is to exercise the power" of suspension. (17) He would not release Merryman, even in the face of Taney's writ.

Now as to you other point:

And the fratboy comparison is inappropriate primarily because anyone subjected to this treatment in a fraternity hazing is free to leave if they want to. They know it will end soon enough, and they voluntarily chose to join the fraternity in the first place.

why does that sound familiar?  It's like I knew you would be going here:

The primary distinction between the two in my mind is that the frat boys could, arguably, be considered to be participating voluntarily whereas the prisoners at Abu Graib were not.  OK, fine.  So I will agree that Abu Graib lies somewhere between fraternity hazing and the crimes of the Third Reich, but in my mind it is very clearly more in the neighborhood of a fraternity hazing and very far removed from what happened at Auschwitz.  Do you agree or disagree?

Well, do you?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

The memos

Do the Bush memos actually recount the incident that Durbin is recounting?  Please point me to the source.

Here you go .

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Sorry, please be more specific.

Where is the bit that recounts our indefinite holding of a little old lady from Switzerland?  Document and page number, please.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Little old lady who?

You really love to mischaracterize everything Durbin says, don't you? He did not say that we are holding a little old lady from Switzerland, he said that the administration has argued in court that they have the right to do that. Do you disagree that the Bush Administration (and sadly, the Obama Administration) has argued that they have the right to indefinitely detain anyone they deem a terror suspect?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Not trying to mischaracterize anything.

Fine, if he didn't mean to misleadingly imply we were actually holding little old ladies with that true but misleading comment of his, then where in the court records have Bush and/or Obama argued that we have the right to hold little old ladies from Switzerland?  I want to read that alleged argument in context.  Fair enough?

Durbin made an assertion and I merely want to verify it since I don't believe that he can be trusted, but I personally have no real interest in trying to track down a source that I don't believe exists.  You want me to believe Durbin so you track down the source.  Show me the source and after reading it I will tell you whether I believe his comment was true and accurate.

Do you disagree that the Bush Administration (and sadly, the Obama Administration) has argued that they have the right to indefinitely detain anyone they deem a terror suspect?

No, I do not deny this.  I do, however, question whether they have actually ever argued in court that this would specifically apply to little old ladies from Switzerland making donations to charities.  In the context of our current discussion this is not an idle point because it goes directly to my assertion that he is dealing in distortions and half-truths.

In this case the half-truth is that they have argued in court that they have the right to detain anyone they deem to be a terror suspect.  The distortion, assuming I am correct, would be that the administration specifically argued that they can and/or would extend this to little old ladies from Switzerland.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Well, do I?

No, I disagree. The events described by Durbin are things that almost certainly happened at places like Auschwitz. I'd be rather surprised if a typical fraternity hazing involved being chained hand and foot in a fetal position for 24 hours or more with no food or water, or resulted in pledges pulling their own hair out.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Oh my friend, you are a liberal.

Ask John McCain bout that.

Ask the families that...you know what, your ignoance does not deserve an answer.

I guess right wing extremism is where its at, even though they have no reasoning or evidence.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

I get it now!

You're just a strawman sockpuppet aren't you? You're just pretending to be a rude, moronic right-winger to make right-wingers look bad! Well, I don't particularly approve of the tactic, but I must admit you're doing a pretty good job. Although I think you overplayed your hand a wee bit with this particular post. I mean, seriously - invoking a list of terrorist incidents as a catchall response to refute any liberal argument? At least you didn't use the phrase "9/11 changed everything." I suppose you could have gone way over the top and just screamed "Watch out for the bogeyman! He's gonna get ya!" So I applaud your restraint in that regard.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

You just don't get it.

Hey SL, guess what, the bad guys, they're real.

You can make all the snappy little politically correct gestures you like, those techniques are occasionally vital to preventing similar events from occurring.

Even though our president would like to think otherwise. I hope you understand that while he is making plans to hang out with his ideological equivalents Castro and Chavez, some cleric is giving a suicide bomber his last supportive words of encouragement reminding him how he'll be getting it on with 100 virgins in paradise, and he's believing it.

I realize you and you ilk give no credit to GW for keeping your ass safe for all those years, and I understand the whole subject just won't square with your tidy liberal world view, but all I can say is, we're less then 100 days into this fiasco, and when the (in your mind) unthinkable happens, I told you so.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

You just don't get it

 We know the bad guys are real (include other right wing platitudes here), but you and your ilk cheering for another terrorist attack so that you can say I told you so, is exactly why your party is shrinking.

 Do you understand that a US policy that embraces, condones or legitamizes torture is like a giant recruitment poster for extremists around the world?

 

………… parent

Just more talking points

What PC words would you like to describe the "bad guys" ML?

No one is cheering for a terrorist attack nit wit, but many of us would like to remain vigilant in preventing one.

If you think the right is shrinking, your reading old data dude.

I never said the US should condone embrace or legitimize torture. What we have done is not torture.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Lying doesn't help

 water boarding is torture, period.

 None of this is new information.

 What is new is the statement that such practices will cease and are not condoned by the administration.

The word I would use is violent nihilist extremists, or those that believe that there is nothing to approve of in the established social order,  those that feel they have nothing to lose, see their lives as worthless and meaningless, except when they  engage in violent acts of retribution.

………… parent

No it isn't.

We subject our military personnel to the technique as part of the SERE training.  We are not torturing our own military.  The technique does not harm the subject either physically or mentally.  It is not torture.

Memorandum for John Rizzo

With respect to the waterboard, you have also oraly informed us that the Navy continue to use it in training. You have informed us that your on-site psychologists, who have extensive experience with the use of the waterboard in Navy training, have not encountered any significant long-term mental health consequences from its use. Your on-site psychologists have also indicated that JPRA has likewise not reported any significant long-term mental health consequences from the use of the waterboard. You have informed us that other services ceased use of the waterboard because it was so successful as an interrogation technique but not because of any concerns over any harm, physical or mental, caused by it. It was also reported to be almost 100 percent effective in producing cooperation among the trainees. [Redacted] also indicated that he had observed the use of the watetbbard in Navy training some ten to twelve times. Each time it resulted in cooperation but it did not result in any physical harm to the student.

 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

but but but

the frat hazing is just like torture, but it isn't, so we don't torture.

but but the military training is just like torture but it isn't so therefore it's not torture.

Maybe we could show tapes of military training to the rest of the  world so that these folks would realize that the US tortures it's own people for training and they are still alive and unharmed, so really really it's not torture.

 

 

………… parent

In this case ...

the definition of "torture" is tied to the legal definitions and not to some notion of things that offend your delicate sensibilities.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

but but but

the frat boys are all still alive. This logically and succinctly makes the case the torture does not physically harm people. Because the detainees got treated just like the frat boys. A little hazing. No big deal, legally speaking.

The military trainees are still alive. This logically and succinctly makes the case that the legal definition of torture does not physically or mentally harm people, whether they were waterboarded, beaten or had their heads slammed against the wall. It's not torture because they are still alive, legally speaking.

 

 

………… parent

No matter how much you want it to be torture ML

it simply is not.

 

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

it depends on what the meaning of is is

We can disagree forever.

Go ahead and have the last word. 

It is torture.

………… parent

Just because you say so, I guess.

Where's your supporting material to show that these practices cross the line defined by the legal definitions?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Ever heard of Yukio Asano?

 He was prosecuted by the US in 1947 for torture. The offenses for which he recieved 15 years included clubbing, kicking, burning, and tying him to a slanted stretcher and pouring water over his face. etc.

 IN 1947 the US considered this a war crime. 

 It doesn't put a good face on America to be against torture before you were for it. It sets a bad precedent.

 United States of America v. Hideji Nakamura, Yukio Asano, Seitara Hata, and Takeo Kita, U.S. Military Commission, Yokohama, 1-28 May, 1947. 

………… parent

You ingorant B

Yes let's compare the conditions at Gitmo - with those of WW2 Japanese POW camps.

Shall we.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Another sports analogy

Scoring 10 points, 10 rebounds, and 10 assist is still a triple double. It's still a triple double even if someone else had 40 points, 26 rebounds and 13 assist.

Torture is still torture even if worse can be done worse.
The Japanese during WWII helped show what people will more than willfully tolerate if they see another group as a threat and not worthy of basic human dignities.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Yes, point taken.

However my point, in contrast to ML, is that "simulated" drowning, bugs in a box, nudity, etc., for brief periods to gather intelligence first of all IMO is not "torture", pulling out teeth or taking off a digit knuckle by knuckle, yes, pouring water over a bad guys head or putting him in a box with some bugs, no, and second, our treatment of the detainees is not even remotely comparable to the atrocities committed by the Japanese during WW2.

I would never condone the former, but if the later produces information that save our soldiers or citizens lives, by all means.

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

but IF

 but IF the later produces information......

  The information produced by torture is unreliable. That's the problem isn't it.

  

  

………… parent

Pfft.

The information produced by torture is unreliable.

You say that like people will NEVER divulge accurate information.  That's just ludicrous.  We have already gotten useful information.  It's not like we can't double check what they tell us.  It's not like we are going to just blanket believe every word out of their mouths.  Geeze.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

But it does.

According to CNN, Haynes and Mukasey state that fully “half” of what we “know” about Al Qaeda today, came from "torture" sessions.

And as far as why we have to have these options Bradbury writes;

...the techniques are used against unlawful combatants who deliberately and secretly attack civlians in an untraditional armed conflict in which intelligence is difficult or impossible to collect by other means and is essential to the protection of the United States and its interests, where the techniques are used only when necessary and only in the interrogations of key terrorist leaders reasonably thought to have actionable intelligence, and where every effort is made to minimize unnecessary suffering and to avoid inflicting significant or lasting harm.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Too thin.

The events described by Durbin are things that almost certainly happened at places like Auschwitz.

And so did the pulling of little girl's hair.  I thought we went over this, the fact that something happened at Auschwitz is not prima facia evidence that we tortured anyone.

And we have yet to substantiate that Durbin didn't fabricate the entire episode.  Show me a source because I won't take him at his word.  His distortions and half truths show that he cannot be trusted to tell the truth and the WHOLE truth.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Here you go.

It looks like this is the specific source (pdf) Durbin was referring to. You can also take your pick from this list to learn about what else has been going on.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Ok, good.

Let's agree that any implied equivalency between US 'enhanced interrogation' and the actions of the 3rd Reich, Pol Pot, and Stalin is ridiculous.  Let's also agree that any implied equivalency between US 'enhanced interrogation' and an average university fraternity hazing is also ridiculous.  Let's also ignore the fact that Durbin didn't actually say the first, while Limbaugh most assuredly said the second -- and simply accept that they are, as presented, ridiculous.  Which is the more ridiculous?  I don't care.

If we can, let's also agree that the courts are where the determination should be made as to whether any of the approved 'enhanced interrogation' techniques constituted or did not constitute 'torture'.  The courts are also where the determination should be made as to whether activites that occured outside the approved interrogation framework were or were not crimes.  That's how the system is supposed to work.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

No, let's not.

Let's also agree that any implied equivalency between US 'enhanced interrogation' and an average university fraternity hazing is also ridiculous.

I am clearly arguing exactly the opposite of this.  Why you would think otherwise is a mystery to me.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

If you really belive that GR...

.... then you might very well be a sociopath.  Either that, or you don't know anything about the average fraternity hazing.  It's a statement that's patently ridiculous on its face, and you should know better.

You don't have to have medical staff on hand during the average fraternity hazing to ensure that you're not suffering heart damage.

 

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

So, which of my items ...

listed here are not reminscent of a fraternity hazing and/or normal fraternity behavior?

You don't have to have medical staff on hand during the average fraternity hazing to ensure that you're not suffering heart damage.

Really?  Let's check shall we?

A Fraternity Hazing Gone Wrong

But that's not much comfort to the family of Matthew Carrington, who died during the Feb. 2, 2005, hazing accident.

...

"It's kind of like the medieval castle dungeon," says Keeney. In February, at the time of Carrington's death, the dark and dirty basement would have been very cold, says Keeney. Repeatedly scribbled on the walls was the phrase, "In the basement, no one can hear you scream."

The two pledges were ordered downstairs and told to do calisthenics in raw sewage that had leaked on the floor. For hours, according to district attorney Mike Ramsey, they were interrogated and taunted.

There were forced pushups and trivia quizzes. Through it all, the Carrington and Quintana were ordered to drink from a five-gallon jug of water, which was filled over and over. Fans blasted icy air on their wet bodies. They urinated and vomited on themselves. Then, according to DA Ramsey, something went terribly wrong.

Carrington collapsed and started a seizure. Fraternity members didn't initially call an ambulance. By the time they did, it was too late. Carrington was taken to Enloe Medical Center, where his heart stopped. At about 5 a.m. he was pronounced dead from water intoxication, which caused the swelling of his brain and lungs. Not a single fraternity brother was there, a fact that still haunts his mother.

...

Side Bar: Chi Tau fraternity pledges were forced to sleep in ventilation shafts that opened into the basement.

Sound familiar?

I bet Carrington would disagree with you that you don't need medical staff at hazings.

Now let me be clear, I am not here to defend the practice of hazing.  It is illegal in many states and I have absolutely no problem with that.  These types of things are sadistic.  The frat brothers do this because they think it is fun.  Sometimes things get out of hand, and when they do criminal charges are possibly in order.  But does anyone compare this type of thing to Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot?  Oh yea, Dick Durbin does.

So while the frat borthers do this type of thing for the sadistic "fun" of it, the same cannot be said of the government interrogaters.  They do it for a vital purpose not because they want to.  Yet the Dick Durbin's of the world want to label them as torturers even though comparable things are happening in frat houses every year.

How about this for a statistic from the same article:

It's a parent's nightmare and a nagging fear for the people who run colleges and universities: A young fraternity pledge dies when hazing gets out of control. It's happened at least once each year for more than three decades.

Apparently more people have died in hazing incidents than have died in US interrogations in the War on Terror.

But let's not stop there, how about this account:

Broken Pledges

The work that I do began because of personal experience. I speak from the heart, as a mother, who learned about the ugly tradition of "hazing" in the worst possible way. I lost my son Chuck, 21 years ago in an alcohol/hazing incident in New York State at Alfred University. He was kidnapped from his dorm, locked in a car trunk in freezing weather with the other pledges, and forced to consume a lethal mix of bourbon, wine and beer. Chuck was dead within hours due to acute alcohol poisoning and exposure to cold. Other pledges were hospitalized but fortunately they lived.

Or these:

7 Students Pledging a Fraternity Are Burned

The students, at New England College in Henniker, N.H., near Concord, were branded with an unidentified object during a “hazing ritual” about three weeks ago, the Henniker police chief, Timothy Russell, said Friday. All the burns were in a straight line, about seven inches long, on the left side of the upper chest.

...

Only Wednesday, seven members of the varsity cheerleading squad at Morton Ranch High School in Katy, Tex., near Houston, were charged with hazing. They are accused of binding and blindfolding members of the junior varsity squad and pushing them into a swimming pool at a private home.

No, that doesn't sound anything like what Durbin was talking about.  Branding people?  Pfft, childs play.  Binding?  Blindfolding?  Pushed into a swimming pool?  Nope, not even close.

Louisiana: Hot-Water Hazing?

Ten Tulane University fraternity members faced felony charges and the university suspended the Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity after accusations that the group burned pledges with hot water and pepper spray during a ''hell night'' initiation. ''The two students were treated at a local hospital for severe burns,'' Officer Garry Flot, a New Orleans police spokesman, said. Tulane issued a news release saying it had suspended Pi Kappa Alpha and would investigate. The pledges were scalded late April 25 or early April 26, Frank D'Amico Jr., a lawyer for one of the victims, told a television station.

And another:

Frat leaders in UT hazing death speak out

In the week leading up to the fatal night, the pledges had been forced to do hours of exercises with no water, were whipped with a paddle and deprived of sleep.

On the night Phoummarath passed out, he had a blood alcohol level five times the legal limit.

It would be 12 hours before anyone noticed he wasn’t breathing.

“I was there before the paramedics, and I was going to give him CPR, but he was long passed.”

Need I continue?  I think I have covered most of the allegations made by Durbin and then some.  Again, I am not supporting this type of activity.  I am merely pointing out that when Rush claimed that the incidents Durbin was complaining about sounded a lot like fraternity hazings he was right.  Do you still deny this?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

These are examples....

.... that you feel are best characterized as 'average' fraternity hazings?

So yes, I do deny it.

Limbaugh made his 'fraternity' comment as a joke.  He wasn't actually trying to make a serious comparison.  How do I know?  Here's what he said:

"Skull and Bones, that's John Kerry, that's George Bush. These guys -- and there are all kinds of secret things that go on at Skull and Bones, and it was a laugh line. And here is this guy, outraged and taking it seriously. Not getting it at -- probably on purpose -- but I doubt that he would have gotten it if he'd have heard it in context originally."

Source: http://mediamatters.org/items/200511100009

So that's what you're defending.  You're defending a Limbaugh 'laugh line', that wasn't meant to be taken seriously.  Yet here you are, taking it very seriously indeed.  Somehow, I don't think Rush would approve.

But you know, I will agree with the broader point -- it's a horrible thing when people are subjected to sadistic cruelty -- whether it's in a fraternity, a prison, a detention center, a grade school, a summer camp, a nursing home, or a sporting goods store.  So there's your equivalency, GoRight -- it's horrible, no matter where it happens, every time it happens. 

 

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

Average? Who said average? Oh yea, that was you.

These are examples that you feel are best characterized as 'average' fraternity hazings?

You're the one moving the goal post, not me.  I only claimed that they were remiscent of fraternity hazing and I have provided a wealth of references to substantiate that claim.

So that's what you're defending.  You're defending a Limbaugh 'laugh line', that wasn't meant to be taken seriously.

No, I am making the case that this was an apt comparison.  My points have nothing to do with Rush.  I only brought him up because he is the one that made the observation.

And to the extent that this may, or may not, have been a "laugh line" it is only funny because it is true and yet the Democrats are still calling this torture.  It is funny because their use of the word torture is ridiculous given the validity of the comparison to fraternity hazing.

And just for the record, I believe that you are being a bit disingenuous on your own part here.  You never expected me to be able to come up with ANY examples, much less ones that actually fit the description of what Durbin is calling torture.  I could certainly dig up plenty more, this is not an isolated or cherry picked example.

The point is that these things ARE occuring within the context of fraternity hazing on a not insignificant frequency (1 death per year for 30 years is not insignificant) and in many cases there aren't even charges being filed much less charges of crimes against humanity.  That's what makes Durbin's claim so ridiculous on its face and why he was forced to apologize.  I am certain that he did not decide to aplogize lightly.  If he could have let this blow over he most certainly would have.

So there's your equivalency, GoRight -- it's horrible, no matter where it happens, every time it happens.

And I don't disagree that these are horrible.  Never said I did.  But every horrible thing in the world is NOT torture, regardless how many times the Democrats try to make us believe that is the case.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Good Lord...

You do love you some puffed up bloviating, don't you?

I don't buy the sanctimony, but I will give you credit for choking an absurdity for all it's worth.

You, on the one hand, argue 'til you're blue in the face that the abuses at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere are equivalent to abuses that have caused injury and death in fraternity hazings, yet will apparently deny to your last breath that the abuses at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere share no characteristics with abuses that have caused injury and death to prisoners in the hands of corrupt regimes -- and you make this absurd claim because, you claim, it is a matter of degree.

So let's be morally clear here, if we can.  I don't care whether sodomizing a prisoner with a baton is more like something that might have happened at a fraternity hazing than it is like something that might have happened at Auschwitz.  I don't care whether Dick Durbin or Rush Limbaugh or you or I are more or less guilty of hyperbole.  I don't care whether sodomizing a prisoner with a baton is called 'torture' or 'enhanced interrogation'.  What I care about is ensuring that prisoners aren't sodomized with batons by their captors.  That's about as simple as it gets, I think.

With respect to waterboarding and other 'enhanced interrogation' techniques that were actually authorized for use by the previous administration (unlike sodomy with a baton, which as far as I can tell was never authorized)  -- the only opinion of whether any of this does or does not constitute 'torture' that really matters is that of the court -- because it carries the force of law.  Your opinion makes absolutely no difference to any legal finding or outcome, and neither does mine.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

This is true.

Your opinion makes absolutely no difference to any legal finding or outcome, and neither does mine.

But of course I am not citing my own legal opinion, I am citing the legal opinion of the DOJ at the time the memo was written.  A court may or may not agree with that opinion in the end, but either way it carries more weight than yours (or mine).*

---------------------------------

* Disclaimer: And yes, this is a appeal to authority argument so I am OBVIOUSLY not claiming that it is definitive "proof" of anything.  That would have to be hashed out in court.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Bravo!

I don't care whether sodomizing a prisoner with a baton is called 'torture' or 'enhanced interrogation'.  What I care about is ensuring that prisoners aren't sodomized with batons by their captors.

I think you've pretty much nailed the crux of the matter here. I'm personally going to declare this Dick Durbin/Rush Limbaugh thread dead and move the discussion over to Brendan's diary . This open thread is getting too long anyway.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

I agree Abu Ghraib, and sodomy are not acceptable.

We must prevent those kinds of events to occur ever again. They were an embarrassment to the military profession, and our country.

However, water boarding and other such techniques do not fall under the same category.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Fine.

If we can, let's also agree that the courts are where the determination should be made as to whether any of the approved 'enhanced interrogation' techniques constituted or did not constitute 'torture'.  The courts are also where the determination should be made as to whether activites that occured outside the approved interrogation framework were or were not crimes.  That's how the system is supposed to work.

I pick the military courts/tribunals.  Oh, wait, so did Bush.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Yeah, he did...

.... and there was a court challenge... yada yada yada.  The courts will grind it out eventually.

BTW, I've got nothing against a military tribunal.  I think that a well run military tribunal can be every bit as effective and fair as a civilian court -- so I've got no argument against that, personally.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

Wow, its always Rush as a last resort, huh?

Poor reasoning, GR wins.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

If you'd....

... read the thread, you'd realize I didn't bring Rush up.... GR did.

You also might realize that there's not much difference between what I just said and what GR said in an earlier comment.... it just took him five paragraphs.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

Uh, try to keep up, OK?

GR is the one who brought up Rush and his frat boy comparison, not me. Does that mean I win?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

And I did so for good reason.

Because, once again, Rush is Right!

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Disagree

Durbin retracted for the sake of comity.

 His mistake was thinking that the right has any sense of comity or decency, because they don't.

 There is no good faith on the right, as withnessed by their expressed hopes that the President of the US fails.

 You yourself are clear evidence of that, with your appalling excuses for those who call Obama Hitler, (if they do so in good faith it's okay) coupled with multiple excuses to justify torture as all American.

 

………… parent

When the POTUS is doing things against our best interests ...

we SHOULD hope that he fails.  Did you hope that Bush would fail when he was doing things that you thought were not in our best interests, or did you support him?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

When the POTUS is doing

When the POTUS is doing things against our best interests ...

we SHOULD hope that he fails. Did you hope that Bush would fail when he was doing things that you thought were not in our best interests, or did you support him?

Depends on what you mean by fails, fails to get the policy in place maybe. There conceivable times when the POTUS could act against people's best interest, but failure of the policy is far and away the worst option conceivably available.

I would hope that Bush43's tariffs on foreign steel failed to pass, but once it went through, it would be better for foreign countries to put tariffs on goods manufactured by US steel, instead of tariffs on oranges and the like.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Just curious

  Applying your standard of what is or is not pro-America to Rick Perry's suggestion that America sucks so bad right now that Texas might secede from the Union, is Rick Perry still considered pro-America?

 Further how do you define 'America'?

Is it our system of government and its expressed democratic values that makes this country great?

 Is it the people that make this country great.

 

………… parent

Ok.

 Applying your standard of what is or is not pro-America to Rick Perry's suggestion that America sucks so bad right now that Texas might secede from the Union, is Rick Perry still considered pro-America?

The answer is a most certian yes.

 Further how do you define 'America'?

"America" is a geographical area on the North American continent bordered by Canada to the north, Mexico to the south, and the Pacific and Atlantic oceans on the left and right respectively.

Did you mean to ask for the definition of  "The United States of America" perhaps?

Is it our system of government and its expressed democratic values that makes this country great?

 Is it the people that make this country great.

The USA is a Constitutional Republic ML, it is not a democracy . Democracy, in contrast is a system of government where the will of the majority rules, unrestricted by any laws. The Founders of the United States of America went to great lengths to make sure our nation was not, and would never become, a democracy.

The Constitution was designed to preserve individual rights and to limit the power of government to the protection of individual rights. The Founders opposed unlimited majority rule because they recognized that individual rights and liberty would be compromised by mob rule, that the will of the majority could be just as tyrannical as the will of a monarch. In short, they knew that just as monarchy did, so democracy would, lead to the infringement of individual rights.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Hm.

I think you might have missed the forest for the trees, there.

Do you believe in American exceptionalism?  If so, what's the source?  The US constitution and form of government?  The inventiveness and resilience of the people?  Superior values?  Genetics?  Our national symbols? Resources?  Geography?  Why is the USA the best nation on earth -- if you think it is.

By the way, the claim that dissent is inherently unpatriotic is just as ridiculous as the claim that dissent is always patriotic.  Just as being 'Pro-USA' isn't always patriotic -- it certainly isn't if it's reflexive, jingoistic, and preserves elements of our national character that should be purged -- like 'separate but equal'. 

We're a constitutional republic with democratically elected representation.  The framers sought to limit the power of the 'demos' so we wouldn't have mob rule.... smart.... but they also allowed the people to elect their own representation, instead of having hereditary office holders, or those elected by some form of peerage, and to change those representatives periodically without bloodshed.... smart. 

Rick Perry is an idiot.  I can say that, as he's my governor.  My idiot governor.  There is no constitutional exception in Texas for secession.  It's a myth, and he should know better.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

I am sorry, I thought I was clear.

I believe in the Constitutional Republic.

I never claimed anything about dissent, in fact yesterday I participated in it! ;-)

You may not dig Perry, he's not popular, and he is just posturing anyway, but you're 100% mistaken, in accordance with the State-Federal compact of government on which that relationship is founded.

At the most fundamental and basic level of our political belief system as Americans rests the idea that men ought to be free to determine their own form of government.  Our Declaration of Independence states this fact clearly:

...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

Few Americans would deny that our founders in 1776 had among other inalienable rights the justification and right to assert a form of government "most likely to effect Safety and Happiness".

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

No.

I wasn't speaking of the rights granted to all states.... I was speaking to the local myth that there is some sort of specially negotiated secession exception that applies only to Texas, and that it was retained after the civil war when Texas 'rejoined' the Union.

What Texas can (or could) do is split into 5 states if it chose ... but Texas is no different than any other state with respect to secession -- that is to say, it has no 'special' rights.

Also, real question -- Is the US truly still a constitutional republic post civil war?  I assume you believe Lincoln overstepped, and should have allowed the confederate states to secede if they chose to.  What becomes of the republic then?  Two nations?  What would happen if a state seriously attempted to secede now?

 

 

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

Yep, two countries, and today what ever states seceded

would become sovereign.

I did not hear Perry speak to some myth about Texas, he spoke to the 10th amendment?

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

He said:

"Texas is a unique place. When we came into the union in 1845, one of the issues was that we would be able to leave if we decided to do that," Perry said.

Found here: http://blogs.chron.com/texaspolitics/archives/2009/04/perry_says_texa.html

 

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

Huh, would have to look into it?

I know Virginia did have some extra language about that in their ratification.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

It's not there. Even if it were.....

 

... there's Texas v. White:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/589367/Texas-v-White

(1869), U.S. Supreme Court case in which it was held that the United States is “an indestructible union” from which no state can secede. In 1850 the state of Texas received $10,000,000 in federal government bonds in settlement of boundary claims. In 1861 the state seceded from the Union and joined the Confederacy. In 1862 the confederationist government of the state transferred the bonds to several private individuals in payment for Confederate military supplies . After the Civil War the Reconstruction state government filed a suit in the Supreme Court seeking to recover the bonds, then held by citizens of various states.

 

 

 

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

I am not sure what that means w/ respect to our talk?

nt.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

As I read it....

... it means the Supremes decided that no state can legally secede from the Union.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

Oh of course, it's late, but

that is post war jurors prudence. It is Judicial activism t it's worse. But read this from Walter Williams, unquestionably States have the right of secession.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

If I disagree with your

 answer am I pro-America, or not pro-America.

 I used the word America, because that is the word GoRight used. I was looking for his definition.

 If it is pro-America for Rick Perry to threaten to secede from the union, then will the school children still pledge alligence to the the US of A for now, or just to Texas?

 We do have laws in this country and also checks and balances through participation and elected representatives. We are a nation of laws and not men, for good reason.

 I wonder how you would have felt about California's Governor declaring that he wanted to secede from the Union after Bush was appointed to office in 2001?

 Would you consider  a statement from a Democratic Gov of California's intent to secede from the union to be similarly as pro-America as Rick Perry's?

 

………… parent

I have not ever labeled you those things.

I will let you and GR hash that one out.

I assume the kids will be Texan citizens, and the pledge would no longer be applicable.

You are dead on when you say;

 We do have laws in this country and also checks and balances through participation and elected representatives. We are a nation of laws and not men, for good reason.

Except those checks and balances are not "by participation", they are derived from Montesquieu's separation of powers, and they are enumerated in the Constitution.

As far as California goes, I would feel the same way I do about Texas, I live in SC and would welcome Mark Sanford to join suit. Not because I want to secede, but because I want to remind Obama and the overstepping Government know who they work for, and the consequences they are toying with.

Yes if Sanford was a D of course I would support his right to secede, it is a constitutional right ML.

Do you just change your principles based on what party says or does what?

By the way, if you live in Cali, keep in mind the government is bankrupt, literally, and now you will take the stimulous, create more unsustainble overhead, and really feel the pain later!

You realize eventually we will pay for this spending right, either in very very high oppressive taxes, or crazy inflation, one of those two things are coming to your town soon, and it will go on for a long long time. There is no getting around it.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

A Governor proposing secession.....

 Some say it's treason.

  If you insist secession is a constitutional right, then that implies any time any state disagrees with the results of an election they can have a temper tantrum and take their toys and threaten to quit playing?

 Of course there are serious questions, such as  what to do with the army folks serving overseas who are Texans. Would they immediately have to take off their uniforms and go back to Texas?

 Would the National Guard still serve in Texas? Would folks get their social security checks. Would H&R Block be disbanded in Texas? 

 With your desire to pay nothing for a Federal Government, then does that leave a problem with say Texas or So. Carolina creating their own military. Where would you buy the uniforms for each state. Would you change the trade laws, so you could do business with Florida.

 I don't think Rick Perry has really thought this trough, yet folks like yourself and others have latched onto the notion in a crazed frenzy that not paying taxes to this nation, is somehow the best thing that could ever happen in life.

 Would the vets still get any Federal VA pension money in Texas. OR would you say thanks for serving the country now you are screwed because our state is now it's own country.

 

 

………… parent

Up to your old games again?

I am not advocating secession, I am confident the USA will endure ML. And I will not fantasize with you regarding the detail that a State would need to settle once separated.

I do however recognize it always has been a constitutional option for the States, it was literally acknowledged as such by the founders verbatim.

It is hysteria around the very mention of it that is curious to me, why do you have such disregard for the very thing that gives us, and has sustained the very government you  make so many claims about.

As far as taxes, I have said to you multiple times I am not for no taxes, who is, I don't know anyone, I would personally prefer a consumption tax based system such as the fair tax suggests. Have you considered the fair tax?

Why do you continue to infer such untrue and exaggerated nonsense like your tax shtick?

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Oh please

Let's manufacture something out of nothing, shall we?

You probably would have totally freaked out over the "Secede" bumper stickers that were popular a couple of decades ago.   Or maybe thought that Gallagher was serious when he suggested all the good stuff that could come out of Texas seceding ("...they could attack Cuba!").  Populist rhetoric and political satire come in all kinds of forms.

And addressed more to the blog at large, not just ML: As far as the serious issue -- whether sucession is allowed in our form of government -- I think we do have to fall back upon the Supreme Court's rulings in that matter and say no, it's not.   Interpretation is their job.  That's a bit hard for some to swallow, but the vice-versa (flipping red for blue) item is the definition of "people" for the purposes of applying Constitutional rights...are non-citizens guaranteed the same rights as citizens under the Constitution?  The Supreme Court has said no on that, and that is a bit hard for bluer types to swallow.  (Please don't ask for the link on that right now. We had it here at one time, in some thread, and I dont have time to locate it at the moment.  I'm not bringing it up as a discussion item, but only as an illustration that if one says "the Supreme Court rules" then it rules, regardless if you like how a particular ruling turns out.)

………… parent

And that sort of so thats the latest out of the supreme court

thinking would have resulted in a much less great union to begin with.

I disagree with your analysis here PF, it is a reasonable position, but the court ruled in a post war reconstructionist favor vancant of any constitutional basis.

The right of secession in the US goes to the very heart of how and who formed the United States.  John C. Calhoun in his work "Discourse on The Constitution and Government of the United States " lays out the argument that:

1) the United States is a federal, not national government.  It is a government representing a collective of states, each of which retains its own sovereignty.

2) The People established their respective states; the states established the federal government.

3) The United States government and the various states have a contractual arrangement (a compact to use Calhoun's word), when either violates the contract it can be nullified or terminated.

 

It was a ruling handed down by the Chase court, the guy who coincidently gave us our unconstitutional Federal Reserve Banking system as well, I could go on about all that, but I won't here unless you care to later.

Suffice it to say I will take the constitution, the clearly expressed wishes of the framers, and my rebel soul over an over active supreme court ruling any day.

"The denial of the right to secede from a voluntary union is itself a primary justification for secession"

 

President James Buchanan stated succinctly in a speech before Congress, December 1860 that the Constitution does not delegate to the Federal government the power to use force against a state:

"The question fairly stated is, Has the Constitution delegated to Congress the power to coerce a State into submission which is attempting to withdraw or has actually withdrawn from the Confederacy? If answered in the affirmative, it must be on the principle that the power has been conferred upon Congress to declare and to make war against a State. After much serious reflection I have arrived at the conclusion that no such power has been delegated to Congress or to any other department of the Federal Government. It is manifest upon an inspection of the Constitution that this is not among the specific and enumerated powers granted to Congress, and it is equally apparent that its exercise is not 'necessary and proper for carrying into execution' any one of these powers. So far from this power having been delegated to Congress, it was expressly refused by the Convention which framed the Constitution.

Our very Declaration of Independence is a secessionist document.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal;  that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; and that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, to effect their safety and happiness.

Abraham Lincoln himself was a defender of secession at one point in his career:

Any people anywhere being inclined and having the power have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one which suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right-a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can may revolutionize and make their own so much of the territory as they inhabit.

The Farmers like Jefferson, Madison, and Hamilton wrote extensively and went s far as to write letters of reassurance stating the Federal Government is to remain restrained, and the States would be held in "loose hands".

We should not so much judge this on as they are, but how they should be, constitutionally speaking.

In closing think about these things.

1.  The Constitution was written under the principle of “positive grant.” What this means is quite simple. The federal government is authorized to exercise only those powers which are “positively” “granted” to it by the Constitution. If a power is specifically listed in the Constitution, the federal government can do it - and vice versa.  This principle was so important to the founding fathers that they codified it in law as the 10th Amendment.

2.  The language of the 10th is clear and concise: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”  Thus, the federal government’s powers are limited to a specific set of activities – the rest is to be handled by the state government, or locally, by the people themselves.

3.  The Constitution does not include a congressional power to override state laws.  It does not give the judicial branch unlimited jurisdiction over all matters.  It does not provide Congress with the power to legislate over everything. This is verified by the simple fact that attempts to make these principles part of the Constitution were soundly rejected by its signers.

4.  If the Congress had been intended to carry out anything they claim would promote the “general welfare,” what would be the point of listing its specific powers in Article I, Section 8, since these would’ve already been covered?

5.  James Madison, during the Constitutional ratification process, drafted the “Virginia Plan” to give Congress general legislative authority and to empower the national judiciary to hear any case that might cause friction among the states, to give the congress a veto over state laws, to empower the national government to use the military against the states, and to eliminate the states’ accustomed role in selecting members of Congress.  Each one of these proposals was soundly defeated.  In fact, Madison made many more attempts to authorize a national veto over state laws, and these were repeatedly defeated as well.

6.  The Tenth Amendment was adopted after the Constitutional ratification process to emphasize the fact that the states remained individual and unique sovereignties; that they were empowered in areas that the Constitution did not delegate to the federal government.  With this in mind, any federal attempt to legislate beyond the Constitutional limits of Congress’ authority is a usurpation of state sovereignty - and illegal.

7.  Most importantly, though, we must keep in mind that the Founders envisioned a loose confederation of states – not a one-size-fits-all solution for everything that could arise.  Why?  The simple answer lies in the fact that they had just escaped the tyranny of a king who thought he knew best how to govern everything – including local colonies from across an ocean.

8.  Governments and political leaders are best held accountable to the will of the people when government is local. Second, the people of a state know what is best for them; they do not need bureaucrats, potentially thousands of miles away, governing their lives. Think about it.  If Hitler had ruled just Berlin and Stalin had ruled just Moscow, the whole world might be a different place today.

9.  A constitution which does not provide strict limits is just the thing any government would be thrilled to have, for, as Lord Action once said, “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”

10.  Those who would give us a “living” Constitution are actually giving us a dead one, since such a thing is completely unable to protect us against the encroachments of government power.

 

Anyway, I could go on a while, so I will end there unless you agian would like to continue.

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

I get what you're saying

But in the end, it IS the ruling of the Supreme Court that sets the law.   Whether you or I or anyone else feels such rulings were improper makes no difference; lawyers and lawmakers won't look to us to interpret the law.  It is what it is.

There are several Supreme Court rulings/interpretations that I don't particularly like.   If we were to pick one for revising, secession would not be my first choice.   I'd go for the over-broad interpretation of the Commerce clause.

But, to go into what-if territory, if the question came up anew as if it had never been considered before: "Can a state secede?"  I'd say why not.  But I'd also be hard pressed to see a valid reason why one would want to do so, today.   The advantages of staying within the union appear to me to outweigh any reasons for leaving, at the moment.

………… parent

I understand.

I guess my argument is not so much, is it legal, secession is a last resort for a State that can no longer tolerate the abuses of the Federal Government, I am stating it is constitutional, regardless of a court ruling.

We are no where close to it, but the FG should be held in check by all manner availble, especially considering that elbow room has gotten awful tight lately.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Agree, but

We are no where close to it, but the FG should be held in check by all manner availble, especially considering that elbow room has gotten awful tight lately.

We have a pretty effective check right now: quit sending the same group of people to Washington.  Yet we simply cannot seem to use that very easy and readily-available tool.  I cannot see our indolent selves rousing for something as significant as secession.

………… parent

I know, it's pathetic, more reason to get people to get back

to the constitution and stop judging things on whether we like it, or think it doesn't hurt, or partisanly.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

I am not the one 'freaking out'

 

The Tea Baggers are the ones freaking out. I am just pointing out what Rick Perry said.

We have all been warned by none other than Karl Rove that we ignore the teabaggers at our own peril. You can chose to take him seriously or not.

It should be obvious that Rick Perry is riding some kind of populist wave to score political points.

The satire in my comment obviously went over your head.

I think it is quite irresponsible of Rick Perry to make such statements.

Yes folks have a  right to protest, but  don't think it is particularly wise to rile up the Waco crowd with all this anti-government rhetoric especially when you are the governor of a state.

Rick Perry 

(I am secretly enjoying the competition between Rick Perry and Sarah Palin to see who wins the 'we hate the federal government the most contest', while out of the other side of their mouths claiming, also, the mantle of being the most pro-America.)

 

 

………… parent

Yes

It should be obvious that Rick Perry is riding some kind of populist wave to score political points.

I said as much in my first post on that topic: He's making political hay while the sun shines. 

 

 

………… parent

and.....

I am not freaking out, which is a swipe typically  thrown at 'liberals', as if they are overly emotional, irrational, estrogen filled, not serious people.

 Mentioning something does not a freak out make. That is why I responded to your post.

 Also appreciate the update on the 10th amendment. 

………… parent

Oh ya ML, it was the G20 and then some!

Hundreds of thousands of whako's, the men and women, husband and wives, the children, all eating hot dogs and chanting USA-USA, the business owners and middle class workers all peacefully protesting the insane spending and expansion of government you seem oblivious to!

We didn't have any black hoods like the G20 guys, but we did have these great red white and blue shirts!

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

except that...

 the anarchists were not sponsored by or promoted daily with free advertising by Fox News or the base of the Republican party.

 Think about it. The Federal Government for the first time in a long time is putting tax dollars to use helping construction workers, homeowners, and a segment of the middle class. And what does the Republican base do...... ? They freak out because apparently  taxes spent on average American is somehow akin to fascism.

 

 

 

………… parent

The natural instinct to cover an event that drew

hundreds of thousands of Americans into the streets of cities all across America apparently evaded CNN and the network media. Sort of the same way they didn't accompany McCain to Iraq on any of his numerous trips, but turned Obama's Iraq trip like media nirvana.

The surprising thing is not that FOX covered it, it is that the MSM is so biased and overtly so, that they did not, and what they did was embarrassing for them it was so fraudulent.

But the American people seem to know a fraud when they see one as FOX crushed CNN in the ratings, nothing new there though.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Wow!

The surprising thing isn't that Fox covered it is essentially that Fox sponsored it.

 That's fine, but they should not call the network fair and balanced when the hosts of the shows promote these events with tons of free air time and their pundints host the rallies.

 Try and think of it like this. We already know you despise the librul media. Imagine if for days on end CNN promoted an anti-war demonstration in  03. Every hour they mentioned the events, where they were going to be, and advertised x host of CNN would be the  main speaker at the event. That is not covering an anti-war protest that would be sponsoring it.

 Do you remember the immigration rallies....... when millions of legal immigrants took to the streets. Not hundreds, millions. That is a grassroots protest with a singular message and purpose. Not sponsored by any media outlet.

 There were also millions and millions of protesters pre_Iraq invasion all over the world. Did Fox cover that, or were you even aware that there was a world wide protest against the American invasion of Iraq.

 The tea parties, were basically a display of general disgruntlement, with out any specific message or purpose other than ......... what was the message anyway?

 

………… parent

Laughable.

But most of what you say is.

Did Fox pull permits, pay fees, do local advertising, coordinate everything?

What is it  sponsor does again in your world?

They covered it, because they see it, as they should, as an important story. CNN had that same opportunity, there was no "sponsor".

It had an appeal to those it had an appeal, just as the rallies you mentioned did.

This rally had its activists, just as code pink and all those org's were behind war rallies, and immigration groups got involved and organized the immigration rally's.

That's how it all works ML.

I am proud of this one though, the demonstrations were peaceful, and it was done respectably, the rallys you mentioned were marred by property damage, people being hurt, overt hate mongering, etc.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

I am sorry

I do respect the right to protest but to deny Fox's hours of free advertising promoting these protests is what seems bizarre.

It doesn't matter that they did promote the rallies, but denying that reality gives your movement less credence not more.

Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck both openly and happily hosted events for the rallies. May I repeat that is NOT unbiased reporting. That is biased promoting. Let's not deny these facts. Fox was definitely trying to create a media event.

Not all of the signs were free of hate mongering, which of course is to be expected.

I am glad you have an avenue to vent your frustrations. I think it is healthy as long as it is non-violent.

………… parent

Well ML.

Your point is presented in a thoughtful way, and I understand how you feel.

That in itself is worth the effort.

I have presented my view on the matter as well, I think we are done here.

It was nice to exchange a few ideas with you, without the usual chaos.

I hope we can do it again sometime soon.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Childish.

You know perfectly well what I meant, but just to clarify substitute United States of America for America and this should be clear.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

To whom are you addressing this?

nt.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Click on the parent link to see which post

it is attached to.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Well......

 The definition of the country seems to be where the political divide falls. 

 I don't think the question is childish at all.

 

………… parent

OMG! Right there lays your problem!

The USA 's definition is in the founding documents!

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Which obviously

 provides checks and balances, through various means.

One of them is the Supreme Court which is designated specifically to interpret the constitution as it applies to changing times. It should be more than obvious subtleties apply.

 Another is elections. IN case you hadn't noticed, generally your side lost.

 Nevermind that your side is using lawyers up the ying yang to obstruct Al Franken's victory in Minnesota. Do you think this is what the founders had in mind. 

 If Republicans lose elections they use the courts to overturn the results? While at the same time making claims that there are just too damn many lawyers?

………… parent

You mean ...

Nevermind that your side is using lawyers up the ying yang to obstruct Al Franken's victory in Minnesota. Do you think this is what the founders had in mind.

as opposed to what Al Gore did in 2000?  Did you complain about Gore's actions back then?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

You are confused

A close election in Minnesota triggers an automatic recount.

 That the right is willing to again take the issue to the Supreme Court screams desperation. The right would likely regret such a move.

  I don't think the Supreme Court wants to be the final arbitrator every time the Republicans lose, particularly since Bush v Gore prescribed to equal protection, but tried to mushily clarify that it was one time only and only remanded the decision but did not dismiss it.

 Applying equal protection to all elections, is something I doubt the Supreme Court would like to revisit. The implications should be obvious as it would apply to voting machines, minorities, discrimination against legal citizens without 'proper' ID, etc.

 

………… parent

Gore v. Coleman

Not the same at all. Florida had known, obvious problems with their electoral system, serious allegations of disenfranchisement, and no clear laws about how to work out the issues that arose (hanging chads, anyone?). It was the kind of boondoggle that almost had to be settled by the courts. Minnesota has explicit laws regarding recount procedures, written standards to determine which ballots can be accepted or rejected, and no evidence of disenfranchisement. It has also gone on waaay longer than the Bush-Gore legal tussle.

As a bit of further evidence that these are not in the same ballpark, the Bush-Gore decisions were mostly closely split decisions. Coleman was unanimously rejected.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

No, there's no disagreement at all ...

about which ballots should be counted and which should not in Minnesota.  That's why it's in court ... oh wait ... that actually argues against your claim:

written standards to determine which ballots can be accepted or rejected,

Gee, written rules solve the problem.  Uh huh.  Just like the written rule that authorized/required the Florida Secretary of State to certify the results of the election by a date certain.  Somehow the clearly written rule and procedure was ignored by Gore.  Hmmm...

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Whatever

Since you always argue in good faith, I guess you must honestly see an equivalency between written standards on how to judge ballots (ensuring a fair and non-partisan process), and a written rule that requires certification by a certain date regardless of voting discrepancies (preventing a fair and non-partisan process). To each his own.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Written standards on how to judge ballots?

What standards would those be?

Minnesota's Missing Votes

Some Senate absentee ballots are more equal than others.

Case in point: the panel's dismal handling of absentee ballots. Early in the recount, the Franken team howled that some absentee votes had been erroneously rejected by local officials. We warned at the time that this was dangerous territory, designed to pressure election officials into accepting rejected ballots after the fact.

Yet instead of shutting this Franken request down, or early on issuing a clear set of rules as to which absentees were valid, the state Supreme Court and the canvassing board oversaw a haphazard process by which some counties submitted new batches to be included in the tally, while other counties did not. The resulting additional 933 ballots were largely responsible for Mr. Franken's narrow lead.

During the contest trial, the Coleman team presented evidence of a further 6,500 absentees that it felt deserved to be included under the process that had produced the prior 933. The three judges then finally defined what constituted a "legal" absentee ballot. Countable ballots, for instance, had to contain the signature of the voter, complete registration information, and proper witness credentials.

But the panel only applied these standards going forward, severely reducing the universe of additional absentees that the Coleman team could hope to have included. In the end, the three judges allowed only about 350 additional absentees to be counted. The panel also did nothing about the hundreds, possibly thousands, of absentees that have already been legally included, yet are now "illegal" according to the panel's own ex-post definition.

If all this sounds familiar, think Florida 2000. In that Presidential recount, officials couldn't decide what counted as a legal vote, and so different counties used different standards. The Florida Supreme Court made things worse by changing the rules after the fact. In Bush v. Gore, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that this violated Constitutional principles of equal protection and due process, which require that every vote be accorded equal weight.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Bah.

Well, I'll just defer to the court decision itself. Check out especially items 71-94, starting on page 12,  about the absentee ballots. It doesn't jive particularly well with the "facts" presented in the WSJ Opinion piece you've quoted above. Most importantly, note item 82 which states that ALL the rejected absentee ballots that both Coleman and Franken seeked to have recounted were reviewed twice, and in most cases three times, by election officials.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

-99.99

n/t 

………… parent

In all seriousness

You're a student, a young person, a teenager perhaps?

It's ok, and good you are participating, but its becoming obvious you do not understand the country at all, I suggest you lighten up on your youthful liberal zeal, and try to find truth instead of some defense or attack that supports every liberal iota you run across.

Good luck!

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

What are you talking about?

 As specifically applied to the notion that only your interpretation of the constitution is correct?????!!!

 Even the justices don't agree. Your argument is wholly bogus.

 Hitler tried to slander the Jews in this exact same fashion, as if they were childish, illogical idealists trying to destroy the world with altruism.

 What is childish is to refuse to acknowledge that their is more than one way to skin a cat or interpret the constitution. IN the end we still have a dead cat, and the constitution is still intact, left to re-interpretation another day.

………… parent

Hmm...Interpetation?

This living Constitution BS is just gamesmanship on the part of those who don't like what they see when they read it.

The Justices disagree because some look for truth and original meaning, and and others do not.

The Constitution, and our founding documents and letters make things perfecty clear , it is only liberal obsfucation and the intentional re-reading of them that has distorted their meaning.

Shameful.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

+4

.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

-99

 n/t

………… parent

pfft...

garbage  

………… parent

"I know you are but what am I"

Just thought I would reply in like since maybe I gave you to much credit by suggesting you were in your teens.

What kind of response is that ML?

How does it prove or disprove my assertion, which is absolutely true by the way.

I think some moderation is due in your case ML.

You contribute a big goose egg to this site in my view. I can not find one, not one decent dialogue of yours!

It is all just you being incoherent and unreasonable. Imagine that, here every day, spewing your "Garbage" all over the site, jumping in every thread with the same deranged lunacy over and over?

Something should be done.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Take it to the Supreme Court

Though judging from your persistent dismissal of other points of view I think what you are really looking for is a Supreme Leader.

Of course the constitution is subject to interpretation!

Why else would the founding fathers have established a Supreme Court.

 

………… parent

Don't humor yourself.

Your junk wouldn't make it past the kangaroo court, let alone the supreme court.

Unfortunately ML, over the course, and after daily attempts to get your attention, from a substantial number of your fellow SC members, you have proven yourself to be nothing more than a maladjusted parasite.

Congratulations.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Avoided the question

 again.

  This tactic of throwing insults to avoid any questions is so typical of the right.

 Shall I now beclown you because you can string adjectives together to hurl insults at those with whom you disagree.

 This is what is childish.

 You remind of the typical school yard bully.

 Why did our brilliant founders create the Supreme Court, since you seem to think it is unnecessary.

 

………… parent

You poor thing.

Your last minute pleadings of unfair treatment are pathetic.

Again, virtually everything I've seen you say is pathetic.

And that is the  general consensus of the body of SC membership.

You are an embarrassment to SC.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Odd

You still haven't addressed the question about the function of the Supreme Court.

 

 

………… parent

I wonder where....

..... Constitutional Conventions fit in to this equation, also.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

Hey TPH, nice to se you, Please ask in more detail.

?

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Hi Centinel....

... I will at some point.... actually I'm in the process of reading up on this stuff now... I don't know my history as well as I should, so I don't think I have much to contribute to this discussion at this point....

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

Right on, thats what makes SC so cool, Talk to you soon then.

;-)

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Where did I say John McCain

Where did I say John McCain makes perfect decisions, just because John McCain picked her doesn't mean she wasn't a hail mary pass gone bad. I think she tended to make people who would have voted for McCain anyway (assuming he didn't pick a pro-choicer or something) do it with a little more happiness. However, she turned off swing voters like my Dad. Anyway, even if she really did help McCain, McCain still doesn't owe her anything as he boosted her  career more than can ever be undone,  just by picking her.

BTW I don't really dislike Palin, I may even support her come 2012. What I do dislike is people calling a hero like McCain an a-hole. This is for the following reasons: 1. Calling anybody  assholes because they make political calculations you don't like is uncalled for, 2. You're calling one of America's heros an A-hole, 3. You're calling him an A-hole for not mentioning a politician's name on a freaking comedy show, when he's been of absolutely amazing benefit to this person's political career.

 

………… parent

Got this in my inbox this a.m. - It's from ReasonTV - Scary!

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

…………

Wow, an excellent video.

Hits the nail on the head.  The liberals like to say that Republicans are no longer the party of limited government because look how much Bush spent in 8 years.  Well, this is true, he did spend too much.  But when compared to what Obama is spending?  We really ARE still the party of limited government and spending.

They had a good line going there, until they proved our point about them by outspending Bush.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Roosevelt outspent Hoover

 I don't think it was the end of the world or the end of America.

 Inflation is the least of our worries right now.

The biggest worry is that you tightwads don't want to spend more to invest and create jobs.

  

………… parent

CNN just continues to lose credibility.

The mean and nasty Suzie and CNN at the TEA Party being attended by hundreds of thousands of Americans across the country; 

And the compassionate supportive CNN and Suzie at a demonstration of a 15 or so liberals protesting against Obama not being liberal enough for them;

So much for fair and balanced over at CNN!

Suzie, the CNN producers, and Ted Turner himself should crawl under a rock somewhere where the journalistic standards are low enough for them.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

…………

??

Did you notice FNC channel advertis...er I mean reporting, the Tea Parties like radio stations advertise by broadcasting live from strip clubs?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

No

I saw later that night on TV Glen Beck and Hannity were invited to MC there shows from San Antonio and Atlanta respectively, but I was in Charleston, SC and there was no FOX presence, just as was the case at 598 of the some 600 events that took place around the country.

Trust me, I met the people that got the one I went to going, it was just a bunch of people online, networking in their hometowns to make it all happen, it was definitely a grass roots thing.

FOX did cover it though, as they should have. I think it is a shame the other MSM had so little coverage, when hundreds of thousands American Citizens are walking the streets it's newsworthy, even if FOX did somehow in a parallel universe seem to orchestrate it, find out about it and report some supporting evidence for the claim, but to ignore it just makes them out to be in the bag for Obama and his policies.

No surprise there though.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Coincidence?

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

Evidently.

I'm sure, as your link provides links to, there are many people, blogs, etc picking up on her bizarre reporting standards today. It was fairly shocking, so when you look for her on You Tube that video obviously jumps out at you just around half way down the page when it says, "CNN's Susan Roesgen Different Tone When It's A Left Wing Protest .

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Indeed... didn't see that, sorry....

... fair enough.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

Will Obama attempt to restrict gun sales?

What say you?

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

…………

I doubt it.

He's already expressed that he believes the 2nd Amendment confers an individual right to keep/bear arms.  I don't think he's going to personally push for any new restrictions.

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see some movement in Congress towards reinstating the assault weapons ban, or something like it.  That seems a lot more likely to me. 

I'd be really surprised if that succeeds, though.  It's political arsenic.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

One can only hope ...

I'd be really surprised if that succeeds, though.  It's political arsenic.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Too many blue dog Dems...

.... won't support it.  I also think that, despite what you hear them say on TV, plenty of non blue dog Democrats understand that a large part of the drubbing they took in 1994 had to do with their stance on gun control, and while it might be an issue that shouldn't boil down to pure politics... well, it usually does.

 

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

………… parent

It's time to put this behind us.

The U.S. Supreme Court is scheduled to hear oral arguments this morning on a reverse discrimination complaint by a group of white New Haven firefighters who claim they were denied promotion because the city illegally rejected their top promotional examination scores when black colleagues scored relatively poorly on the same test.

The case, Ricci v. DeStefano, is the first to come before the court under Chief Justice John Roberts that broadly raises the issue of race in the work place. The court's decision could reshape hiring and promotional policies for millions of the nation's public employees - and possibly for private employers as well.

Roberts, who has been Chief Justice since 2005 and who leads a five-justice majority, implied in a 2007 decision involving two, voluntary school integration plans that he believes the time has arrived to eliminate the use of race as a factor in government decisions.

Hartford Courant

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

…………

And Latino

Don't forget about the Latino.

I think it was Souter, who pointed out the damned if you, damned if you don't for New Haven.

There's still a storied history of standardized test designed to keep non-white's out of jobs, it's not like New Haven doesn't have legs to stand on in this case.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Is that what we're basing the post racial America on?

...an antiquated and "storied history of white oppression".

I would hope 50 years of overt, intentional reverse discrimination, and time itself, have made that a non-consideration in this case.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

In other, less good news.

Britian's top tax bracket is now 50%!

Nation tax only, 50%.

Get used to the idea, if you know what I mean.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

…………

Well

From a purely personal point of view, there's nothing at all to get used to! I don't think I have ever even been in the same room as someone in the top tax bracket.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Point is

very soon, YOU will be being taxed like the top tax bracket used to be taxed.

That, and inflation will run wild for a long time. We got some painfull years ahead to pay for this crap.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent