News Cycle Roundup: 4/20/2009

Good Monday morning Swordsmen! I hope you had your fill of tea and pirates last week, as we try to cycle on towards a new set of stories. On today's ledger: vouchers, stimulus, Al Franken (boo!), Rudy Giuliani, and Palin..oh, and where we are as a country. 

 

NYT reports on waterboarding usage on 2 suspects.

Shikha Dalmia raps Obama for his scrapping of the DC School voucher program although positve results were coming in.

SC Republican Harrell knocks Gov. Sanford for his stance on the stimpack.

Sullum comments on Obama's gun control line and links to drug control.

WSJ: Al Franken's 312 vote victory is really a "tie." So let's do it over .

Nate Silver: Haha. A 312-vote victory is not really a "tie." And if you're a fan of statistics, here's why .

Rudy G is back! And he's running for governor against gay marraige .

Ruth Marcus: Gotcha, Palin! You are pro-choice !

AmProspect: America is a center-right nation? Pfft .

AmSpec: Well, maybe it's just a branding issue .

 

 

 

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Great roundup, thanks Charles! (nt)

.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

…………

Interesting stuff in the news

Here's what I've seen that looks good.

First, NPR is doing a segment on "What would happen if marijuana is legal"--I think this will play this afternoon, and I think it deals with issues such as how would it be produced and regulated.

Two good articles from the Economist;

1) An examination of which professions contribute to the political elite in different country. In some places (most Western countries) it's mainly lawyers, in others (China) it's mainly engineers. One disturbing trend in America is the increasing number of people who made a career in politics from day one (take for instance, the Boy Mayor of Pittsburgh ).

2) An examination of the costs and benefits of home ownership . This basically makes the neo-liberal argument for dropping government subsidies for home ownership. Even if you don't buy the neo-liberal line, this article at least makes the case that the (American) government's homeowner promotion policies have failed miserably. If we aren't going to get rid of them, we at least need to overhaul them.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

…………

What is neo-liberalism?

I've heard of neo-conservatism but neo-liberlaism seems like a relatively new term to me. Are there neo-libertarians?

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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neo liberalism

the Wikipedia article looks pretty good. The "Washington consensus" is probably the most coherent description of the doctrine.

The "liberalism" in neo-liberalism is used in the traditional and European sense (not the American sense of Rawlsian liberalism or progressivism). In many ways, it is a moderate form of (American) libertarianism. The idea behind the "neo" label is that these guys use the same basic analysis as the classical liberals (Locke, Mill, Smith, etc) but are applying it within modern institutions. There's a somewhat utilitiarian bent to it (the goal is to maximize human welfare), but it also places a big emphasis on individual rights.

There's also a strong sense that "things will work out" if people are given freedom to respond to the problems that face them, but the state should still act when there are clear public goods to be created.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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privatizing the collective...

I would disagree that neoliberalism(privatizing or applying economic efficiency calculations to the collective) is a moderate form of libertarianism(classical liberalism). As we have been reminded by all the recent bailouts, neoliberalism, in the end, is a thoroughly collectivist ideology, whereas libertarianism, of course, is not.

 

 

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

………… parent

or collectivizing the private

which is exactly how Hayek worked it, gathering like minded folks together forming think tanks funded by donations, to support him so he could tell the unenlightened how to run their businesses.

 

 

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Wiretaps: Not just for terrorism anymore..

Some disturbing news from NSA wiretapping:


Rep. Jane Harman , the California Democrat with a longtime involvement in intelligence issues, was overheard on an NSA wiretap telling a suspected Israeli agent that she would lobby the Justice Department to reduce espionage-related charges against two officials of the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee, the most powerful pro-Israel organization in Washington.

Harman was recorded saying she would “waddle into” the AIPAC case “if you think it’ll make a difference,” according to two former senior national security officials familiar with the NSA transcript.

In exchange for Harman’s help, the sources said, the suspected Israeli agent pledged to help lobby Nancy Pelosi , D-Calif., then-House minority leader, to appoint Harman chair of the Intelligence Committee after the 2006 elections, which the Democrats were heavily favored to win.

Seemingly wary of what she had just agreed to, according to an official who read the NSA transcript, Harman hung up after saying, “This conversation doesn’t exist.”

 

Are we OK with wiretapping people to use for political gain? I thought it was to track terrorist activity?

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

…………

And

Does this deserve investigation of Ms Harman for ethics violations?  

Maybe I missed it in my quick read of the article, but the wiretap appeared not to be because of Ms Harman, but because of the alledged Israeli agent.  She just happened to say the wrong thing.

But by all means, let's give Washington more power.   Such a stellar, ethicial, and honest lot they are.

 

………… parent

Umm, let me just point out ...

What is new is that Harman is said to have been picked up on a court-approved NSA tap directed at alleged Israel covert action operations in Washington.

We are against court-approved wiretaps now, too?

As PF correctly points out this was directed at "alleged Israel covert action operations," not Harman so this was hardly a wiretap for political purposes.  But isn't it interesting that the one who was working with them was a Democrat?  I thought only the Republicans were corrupt.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

I'm not.

We are against court-approved wiretaps now, too?

I'm not. But is there a line to be drawn at what we wiretap and what we don't simply because the court says it's OK? (Disclosure: I've taken pretty much a "non-issue" approach to wiretapping; I just wish more time was spent actually going after the serious stuff, and not what politicians do every single day).

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

………… parent

So guys, I got swindled this weekend..

It was at a carnival, and it cost me upwards of $100 bucks. As a math major, I was embarrassed and it actually still kinda stings.. Here's what happened.

 

Fiancee and I were "drawn" to a street fair in search for food, when I was approached by a gentlemen who gave us a "free" carnival ticket and asked to play a game. The dealer explained the rules, which have been summed up here:

The Razzle board is a flat playing surface with 120 holes numbered 1 to 6. Players roll eight marbles onto the board. After each of them settles into a hole, an agent adds the total score. The agent then points to a laminated card with a confusing grid of points. This card lists all the potential payouts. The best score (instant 100pts) is acheived if the ball lands on all sixes (total of 48) or all 1s (total of 8). The game ends when you (a) reach 100 points or (b) quit.

After a free roll or two to get the game started, the agent begins charging, starting with $2 and increasing with each roll. There  "special numbers" 26,28, and 30 that will raise the jackpot (but also the required entry fee to 5, then 10, then 20, then 40, then so on) to keep the game going. 

Sure, enough early on in the game I got a 40 and a 10, and a 15 to quickly get to 65. After a few rolls, I got to 80, then 90, then 95.

 

True payouts were scored only on very improbable totals. You have to get in the 40s or low teens to get real points, because there are very few sixes and fives on the board, getting there4 would be next to impossible.  I got up to "95" points and then for some reason could not get to 100. I put the game on hold. He wanted $80 to roll  for an $1100 jackpot.  I didn't have it and I was to return the next day after he gave me a "hold" card with my game position. I was to return the next day.

 

Then, after we cooled off and used, the power of the internet, I found out dude most likely intentionally miscounted my score early on. He would point to the bals and tally my score (fraudulently). Not only that, there were far more threes and fours than 1/2/5/6's, putting the expected value at..you guessed it..the "special number" of 28 (requiring a doubling of your bet and the roll fee). Furthermore:

Once the player is close to 100 points, the agent stops miscounting and subsequent rolls produce zero or a harmless free roll. Meanwhile, the agent tries to keep the victim betting by offering substantial amounts of money once the score hits 100--if it ever does.

I felt like I was kicked in the shins. Lesson learned.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

…………

We can hope that...

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

So let me get this straight

You put in over $100 into a carnival game?  Damn, I'm trying to muster some compassion here, but that's pretty darn gullible ;-)

Of course we won't metion the time that I wired almost $2000 to a guy on Ebay selling a Roland keyboard... I didn't win the auction, but the guy emailed me and said that he just so happened to have a second identical keyboard, and would I like to have it at my last bid?  Why sure I'd love that, skymutt says to self, imagining the sweet tones that would soon be flowing from his new instrument.  Oh by the way, the guy says, would you wire the money to my account? I can ship it faster that way.  No problem says skymutt, seeing that the guy has many recommends from satisfied customers.

The sinking feeling started to come about a week later when day after day, the UPS man failed to appear on skymutt's porch.  Turns out this was a well known fraud involving hijacking ebay accounts.

*sigh*

 

………… parent

Some others that caught my eye.

NYT's: Are we on our way towards nationlization - Fed may convert bailouts to equity .

FT's: New conditions placed on bailout repayments.

Breitbart: Stephan Hawking very ill - in hospital

Yahoo News: Why  so much stress over the stress tests

WT's: Axlerod weighs in on the value of Americanism

McClatchy: Where is all the ammo going anyway

WSJ: In a reaction to the TEA parties - the prez asks for 100 million in budget cuts

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

…………

Thanks Centinel..

Hey, do you have any favorite blogs or news sources you like to read? I'd like to pull from a lot of sources so we don't see the same ones over and over, and it keeps the variety (and topic conversation more broad).

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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Obama's Budget Cuts

As expected, totally meaningless.  Just for illustration purposes I used Excel to plot the following data:

Item Total
Bush 2001 1,900,000,000,000
Bush 2002 2,000,000,000,000
Bush 2003 2,200,000,000,000
Bush 2004 2,300,000,000,000
Bush 2005 2,400,000,000,000
Bush 2006 2,700,000,000,000
Bush 2007 2,770,000,000,000
Bush 2008 3,100,000,000,000
Bush Average 2,421,250,000,000
Obama 2009 3,600,000,000,000
Obama Cuts 100,000,000

Source for budget data: Wikipedia United States federal budget

 

 Which of course produces the following expected results:

And yes, this IS to scale.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Thanks GR

 Obviously Obama sucks. How could we all have missed it?

 Please continue to enlighten us on all the ways Obama sucks. 

 This must a wonderfully theraputic  for you.

 Bush was a wonderful and amazing President. Why can't people see it.

:-)

Will look forward to more missives from you on how much Obama sucks. 

I am sure Human Events has more highlights........ developing.

Keep up the good and enlightening work.

………… parent

Glad to be of service, my lady.

I am just reporting and commenting on the news of the day.  I am sorry if you find it depressing.  Perhaps you could try to find and post something positive about what Obama has done?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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That's wonderful

 You have opened my eyes to the fact that Obama is likely worse that Jimmy Carter. Newt and Rush have always been right. I bow to their wisdom and apologize for my liberal ignorance.

 I am going to donate to Sarah Palin thanks to you.

 

Sarah! Sarah!

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How Does this chart account for hidden stuff?

Like the true costs of the war (which were tranferred onto the budget books) and Medicare Part D? The latter especially is a ticking time bomb. Yes, the stimpack is truly a gamble, but imagine if he didn't do it what would be said. "Obama dithers on economic crisis" or "Obama is not doing anything but paying off debt--not what we elected him for..." So it's a tough row to hoe, no doubt.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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These are purely the budget numbers.

I knew someone would ask that but I forgot to mention it.  I am not sure how Obama is accounting for his war spending.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Well, here's a version that includes the war funding.

The addition of the war funding doesn't change anything, and actually it is a bit moot since the whole point of the chart is to illustrate how Obama is making a fool of himself by touting this as anything significant.  It insults the intelligence of the American people.


Item War Spending Budget Total
Bush 2001   1,900,000,000,000 1,900,000,000,000
Bush 2002 18,000,000,000 2,000,000,000,000 2,018,000,000,000
Bush 2003 76,000,000,000 2,200,000,000,000 2,276,000,000,000
Bush 2004 74,000,000,000 2,300,000,000,000 2,374,000,000,000
Bush 2005* 114,000,000,000 2,400,000,000,000 2,514,000,000,000
Bush 2006* 116,000,000,000 2,700,000,000,000 2,816,000,000,000
Bush 2007 165,000,000,000 2,770,000,000,000 2,935,000,000,000
Bush 2008 188,000,000,000 3,100,000,000,000 3,288,000,000,000
Bush Average   2,421,250,000,000 2,515,125,000,000
Obama 2009   3,600,000,000,000 3,600,000,000,000
Obama Cuts   100,000,000  

* War spending in these years are estimates (but consistent with the sources).
Source for budget data: Wikipedia United States federal budget
Source for war spending: Letter from CBO to Honorable Kent Conrad

 

Here's an update that includes the war spending.  For other stuff you are on your own.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Say what?

Obama is making a fool of himself by touting this as anything significant.

Let's see what he's said about this:

The president acknowledged at his first cabinet meeting that the new effort wouldn't put much of a dent in the budget deficit.

President Barack Obama on Monday ordered his Cabinet to find ways to slice spending by $100 million, but acknowledged it's a "drop in the bucket "

The only significance he is attributing to it is that it sets a tone.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

The fact that it is in the news ...

means that Obama is hyping this, regardless of his actual statements.  It is a dog and pony show to try and make the American people think he is being fiscally responsible.  On that point, however, the chart says it all.

$100 Million?  Big deal.  Lip service to make a show of it.

$100 Billion?  Now you've got my attention.

$10 Trillion?  OK, I think you're serious about cutting the budget.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Yet this is more than the AIG bonuses

 that everyone flipped out over.

 20 million for exec bonus, vs saving 100 million.

If you think it doesn't matter then let's just keep it in and put it towards unemployment or small business loans.

………… parent

I think you are confused about ...

who was flipping out over the bonuses.  It was mostly Democrats, I think.  Serious conservatives were flipping out over the entire bailout, not just the bonuses.  Let 'em go bankrupt was the conservative stance.

In fact the conservatives were making fun of the people flipping out over the bonuses because the bonuses were "chump change" compared to the whole bailout, sort of like Obama's "cuts".

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

What about the pork?

I'm with you: 100MM is a drop in the bucket when taking into account the entire budget. However, it's not like this year's budget is astronomically higher than last budget. In the orignal stimpack, less than 0.5% of the bill went to "earmark" or "pork" projects, yet conservatives were acting as if it was big thing, acting on the "principle" of the matter. Should the "its not the amount, its the principle" argument still hold here?

 

 

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

………… parent

Serious big business folks

 just generally were flipping out. 

 Anyone that's in the know, democrat or republican understands  what has happened to the banks and the vast global implications. 

 The populist rage against the bonuses was coming from both sides.

 

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One was a bonus paid contractually to the employees of

 private corporation.

The other is 100 million dollars of tax payer money that is apparently so discretionary that Obama just snaps his fingers and poof, it can disappear and we're no worse off, in fact, hehe, it will set a good tone.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Oh I see contractual agreements

 can't be broken.

 That is why you must agree that the UAW's contract should stand, right. 

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Yep.

That is why you must agree that the UAW's contract should stand, right.

Right up to the point where the company is bankrupt.  After that the court's can decide what to do about the UAW.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I would hazard the same goes for the banks

 The contracts were valid right up until the time that the banks went to the Feds, and asked for a wad of tax dollars. 

 This is a part of the public anger. Workers contracts should be voided. Elite wealthy investment types should keep everything they earned while destroying the value of the banks?????

 The banks are still essentially insolvent, or bankrupt, but are insisting that the nomenclature of bankruptcy or nationalization not be used. For some reason all parties involved seem allergic to saying that we should put the banks into receivership, which means that the contracts are no longer valid.

 

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And you would be wrong.

The contracts were valid right up until the time that the banks went to the Feds, and asked for a wad of tax dollars. 

The law doesn't state that asking for a "wad of tax dollars" is a legitimate basis for voiding contracts, but it does say that bankruptcy is.  See the difference?

For some reason all parties involved seem allergic to saying that we should put the banks into receivership, which means that the contracts are no longer valid.

Not that I am an "involved party", but I don't believe that I ever took a position on whether to let the banks go bankrupt or not.  My general reaction is they should not have any special treatment and that they should go bankrupt just like everyone else.*

--------------------------------------------------------

* Disclaimer for skymutt and others: This opinion is subject to revision based on further investigation or new information coming to my attention.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Here, let us put this in everyday terms ...

Size of the budget:  $ 3,600,000,000,000.00
Size of the cuts:  $          100,000,000.00
Percentage cut: 0.0028%
   
Spending Savings
 $                 100.00  $                          0.00
 $              1,000.00  $                          0.03
 $             10,000.00  $                          0.28
 $           100,000.00  $                          2.78

So what does this say?  It says that for someone making $100,000 per year the equivalent "cut" would be for them to give up ONE small cup of coffee at Starbucks each YEAR.  Whoa, my god, that's some serious belt tightening there.

But wait, you say, Obama has asked them to cut another $100M.  OK, so now our hypothetical worker has to give up one GRANDE cup of coffee at starbucks each YEAR.

I don't know what tone you think he is trying to set here, but me?  I'm hearing business as usual (sans the sprinkles on the doughnuts, of course).

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

And yet another way to look at it ...

  1 Day 365 Days
Size of the budget:  $ 3,600,000,000,000.00  $ 3,600,000,000,000.00
Size of the cuts:  $          100,000,000.00  $     36,500,000,000.00
Percentage cut: 0.0028% 1.0139%

 

If Obama was able to hold that same staff meeting EVERYDAY for the first year and demanded a NEW $100M in cuts each time AND they delievered, then he would have trimmed a whopping 1% off that year's budget.

A whole 1%

I don't know if you realize it or not, but when corporations enter cost cutting mode they look to trim amounts on the order of 10% to 20% of their annual budgets.  And we are to believe that Government run corporations would be MORE efficient?  Pfft.  I laugh at the silliness of it all.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

The price of liberation

JPMorgan Chairman and CEO Jamie Dimon, in a letter to shareholders, touched on a theme that critics of the Iraq war were highlighting more than a year ago: That spending on the war was damaging to the economy.

 

 

"Many other factors may have added to this storm -- an expensive war in Iraq, short-selling, high energy prices, and irrational pressure on corporations, money managers and hedge funds to show increasingly better returns," offered Dimon.

"The modern financial world has had its first major financial crisis. So far, many major actors are gone: many of the mortgage brokers, numerous hedge funds, Wachovia, WaMu, Bear Stearns, Lehman and many others. Some of the survivors are struggling, particularly as we face a truly global, massive recession -- and it still is not over," he wrote.

You can read this if you are curious about a real successful corporate executives opinion of what is happened in our economy.

Obama is probably just looking to cut the budget enough to give more bank execs their bonuses. 100 Million should cover it, don't you think.

A spending freeze is probably the best answer, now that you have opened my eyes.

 

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/DimonLetter.pdf

 

 

 

………… parent

You have lost any perspective on what we have gotten

ourselves into!

The Iraq war is say 600 billion, a lot of money to be sure, but we have now committed ourselves to 12 Trillion dollars in new spending.

Now do you relly get the difference between the B and the T in front of the illion? Evidently not.

A million seconds is 13 days.
A billion seconds is 31 years.
A trillion seconds is 31,688 years.

A million minutes ago was – 1 year, 329 days, 10 hours and 40 minute ago.
A billion minutes ago was just after the time of Christ.

A million hours ago was in 1885.
A billion hours ago man had not yet walked on earth.

A million dollars ago was five (5) seconds ago at the U.S. Treasury.
A billion dollars ago was late yesterday afternoon at the U.S. Treasury.

A trillion dollars is so large a number that only politicians
can use the term in conversation... probably because they
seldom think about what they are really saying. I've read that
mathematicians do not even use the term trillion!
Here is some perspective on TRILLION:

 Trillion = 1,000,000,000,000.
The country has not existed for a trillion seconds.
Western civilization has not been around a trillion seconds.
One trillion seconds ago – 31,688 years – Neanderthals stalked the plains of Europe.

We are in deep deep deep shit ML.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Right

So if we are in deep deep shit, then why don't we act like it and work together to get us out of this deep shit.

One side says spending freeze. The other side says stimulus.

The only way out of this is stimulus.

A spending freeze rolls the economic ball right off a cliff.

The reason for the depression got rolling is that Herbert Hoover was stupid enough to listen to folks that said he had to balance the budget.

I don't want tax payer funds providing windfalls to unethical financial operators trying to bully their way to the top by crushing the competition. I want tax payer funds to create jobs and grow the economy.

 The deep shit extends to foreign soil. Many smaller countries are on the edge of being severely destablized due to economic woes.

Columbia just asked for 10 billion loan from the IMF to offset the effects of dire poverty due to the global crises. Many of these countries listened to the financial wizzes on wall street and are now nearly broke.

 That is why it is so important to throw away the politics, realize that we are all in this together, and start creating jobs. You can't do that with tax cuts, as the Republicans insist.

 It is stimulus spending. Food stamps, unemployment, building solar plants, broadband, all that stuff, and it is to the point where the banks are holding onto the money and not lending to businesses that want to start up these projects.

 

A spending freeze is self inflicted suicide.

 

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Oh ML, I had to go wlk the dog after that one.

I mean really, you have gotten hooked on your own dope.

So if we are in deep deep shit, then why don't we act like it and work together to get us out of this deep shit.

Ok.

One side says spending freeze. The other side says stimulus.

Yep, more or less.

The only way out of this is stimulus. A spending freeze rolls the economic ball right off a cliff.

Really, says who, Paul Krugman? Many of the worlds finest economists disgree.

The reason for the depression got rolling is that Herbert Hoover was stupid enough to listen to folks that said he had to balance the budget.

Well, it is a longer story .

I don't want tax payer funds providing windfalls to unethical financial operators trying to bully their way to the top by crushing the competition. I want tax payer funds to create jobs and grow the economy.

Then let the tax payer money run the government, make sure we have the right framework in place to regulate things, and then stimulate business by getting out of the way and let us make money, not keep spending and printing it.

 The deep shit extends to foreign soil. Many smaller countries are on the edge of being severely destablized due to economic woes.

They should solve their own problems simularly.

Columbia just asked for 10 billion loan from the IMF to offset the effects of dire poverty due to the global crises. Many of these countries listened to the financial wizzes on wall street and are now nearly broke.

Our own banks don't want the money now that they see how screwed the Government is to be in business with, they're better off without it.

 That is why it is so important to throw away the politics, realize that we are all in this together, and start creating jobs. You can't do that with tax cuts, as the Republicans insist.

Um, yes, you can.

 It is stimulus spending. Food stamps, unemployment, building solar plants, broadband, all that stuff, and it is to the point where the banks are holding onto the money and not lending to businesses that want to start up these projects.

Entitlements are a real evil, I think we should give a hand up, but they should not hold on to that hand too long. Banks lend, but right now they are affraid to do much with the hand of the government up their asses. Let the repay the money, get out of their business, as I said put in place approprite regulation, and lets "work together" to get back to what has worked for hundreds of years, and made us the most prosperous land in the history of the world.

A spending freeze is self inflicted suicide.

Self inflicted suiside is what the goverment is commiting right now! Printing money, borrowing, spending and for what, an economicd silver bullet.

Here is an example of the kind of crap spending we are getting from your so called stimulus!

Inside the terminal on a recent weekday, four passengers lined up to board a flight, outnumbered by seven security staff members and supervisors, all suited up in gloves and uniforms to screen six pieces of luggage. For three hours that day, no commercial or private planes took off or landed. Three commercial flights leave the airport on weekdays, all bound for Dulles International Airport.

The key to the airport's gleaming facilities -- and, indeed, its continued existence -- is $200 million in federal funds in the past decade and the powerful patron who steered most of that money here. Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) is credited with securing at least $150 million for the airport. It was among the first in the country to win funding from this year's stimulus package: $800,000 to repave a backup runway.

Shame.

What you just completely fail to understand is, the very same culture of greed and corruption that you pin on those capitalist pigs on wallstreet, not only exists in Washington, it came directly from Washington in the form of the policies that were the genesis for this whole crisis to begin with, so when you re asking Barney Frnk or Chris Dodd to fix this deal, your asking the wolves to watch the sheep.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Toxic thinking has led us here

 I don't have time to delve into details right now.

 I am just going to mention, why do you think the US military has been relatively successful as a whole, disregarding the argument of whether or not the battles and wars are justified.

 The thinking is that you are only as strong as your weakest link. One for all and all for one or socialism squared.  The military represents the UNITED States of America, something that most Americans take great pride in.

Service to country does not mean service to free market.

 

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What a bunch of jibberish.

I won't go into details right now, but, suffice it to say;

Service to country does mean service to the free market, since that's an inherent part of what our country is all about.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Is that so....

exactly where is that written in the constitution.

 

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To quote SNL; ML You Ignorant Slut!

Section 1, Article 8 limits the powers of the federal government to those enumerated, and no more. Hence an unfettered free market economy has become the hallmark of American greatness.

You really need to be put in check.

You are a bottom bound anchor on the USS Swords Crossed. Enough effort hs been placed forth to retrieve it, at some point you have to just cut the line and move on.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Bottom bound anchors

Well, Centinel, you've certainly done your part in recent weeks to drag the hateful language here at SC to new lows. Try to keep the anger in check, please? Your post would have been 10 times more effective had you stopped at the first paragraph, and chosen a more civil subject line.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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You're right

Her crap has gotten to me.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Does that mean that Medicare Part D

is illegal?

 I just don't see any specific clause that says that the government can't have a post office, or public schools, or social security that exists right next to McDonald's and Ross Dress for Less.

 Further your assumption that free market capitalism is free from transgressions, when we see big box stores like WalMart using eminent domain to take people's homes with tax payer money, not for the purpose of roads, but specifically for private corporate benefit, well, I say that is a violation of the constitution.

 

 

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Well now

as for Post Offices;

Clause 7 - The Congress shall have Power... To establish Post Offices and post roads.

Schools and SS are absolutely unconstitutional.

as for WalMart;

I would be inclined to agree, if not on a constitutional basis, certainly a legal one.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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War spending is hurting the economy?

How so?  I thought spending was a stimulus?  Is this not the case with war spending?

  • Increased pay to the troops?  There's a stimulus.

  • Increased demand for steel?  There's a stimulus.

  • Increased demand for military parts?  There's a stimulus.

  • Increased demand for raw materials?  There's a stimulus.

  • Increased demand for defense related manufacturing?  There's a stimulus.

  • Increased demand for vital services such as food processing?  There's a stimulus.

  • Etc.  Etc.  Etc.

Where do you think all that money we spend goes?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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That's the argument isn't it.

 Your post actually makes the case that all spending is stimulus.

 You are correct.

 Note that this is government spending that stimulates the economy.

 Would you claim that this govt spending is 'wasteful'?

 

 

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Is the spending on the War on Terror wasteful?

Would you claim that this govt spending is 'wasteful'?

No, I don't think so.  It is a necessary security expense.  Note that I have always argued that military spending is one of the LEGITIMATE expenses of the federal government, so this should come as no surprise.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Cool so you should be happy

 that John Murtha is using his influence to get the Pentagon to target a lot of defense spending to provide jobs for folks in Pennsyvania.

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Depending on what they would be doing ...

I don't have a problem with it at all.  As long as its required support for the military I don't have a problem with Pennsylvanians making a buck in service to their country.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Depending on what they would be doing....

So who's the judge, jury and executioner here on what is good govt spending that creates jobs. You? 

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Great.....

 You can argue you that govt (defense) spending creates jobs too. But it IS nonetheless govt as in tax payer funded spending.

 I would argue that part of the reason we find ourselves in the mess we are in today, is because Bush cut taxes while we were fighting in Iraq.

 Added defense spending for Iraq, plus tax cuts is a mixed up set of priorities.  With a lot of the $$$ tax payer $$$ going to set up the Iraqi banking. That isn't exactly a re-investment in America.

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Obviously.

You can argue you that govt (defense) spending creates jobs too. But it IS nonetheless [legitimate] govt as in tax payer funded spending.

As I say, I have long argued that defense spending is a legitimate use of tax dollars ... unlike many other large government programs.

I would argue that part of the reason we find ourselves in the mess we are in today, is because Bush cut taxes while we were fighting in Iraq.

The most you can argue from that is that Bush ran up the deficit.  But you are also now arguing that Obama ALSO needs to run up the deficit.  Why is it OK for Obama to do so but not Bush?  Why is it that when Obama does it you expect it to pull us out of a recession whereas when Bush does it you argue it put us into one?  Seems like you want it to work boths ways at your personal whim.

Added defense spending for Iraq, plus tax cuts is a mixed up set of priorities.  With a lot of the $$$ tax payer $$$ going to set up the Iraqi banking. That isn't exactly a re-investment in America.

Sure it is.  Having a democratic, free enterprise state in the middle east will be a HUGE winfall for America on many fronts and from many angles.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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If you can't figure out

 the difference between economic conditions during Bush's term, and now, then I can't help you.

 Iraq was a huge windfall for some that is true.

 The gap between Bush's priorities (Enron, World Com defunding FEMA, nuetering the SEC) and Obama's priorities (education, cutting health care costs, investment in broadband),on spending is enormous.

 Bush's priorities were for the short term benefit of his pals. He constantly excluded people. See the Dec. 7th firing of State Attorney's General who would not break election laws for Rove.

Obama's priorities are geared with an eye on and a vision for the future. He is trying to include people.

 

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Spending on defense of the republic is constitutional,

and I would say an appropriate place to spend in order to stimulate the economy.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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The figures always left out are

 the amount of money that our vaunted investment institutions blew up with creative investment scams.

 To put this all in context let's not forget that AIG is said to have 45 Trillion (small estimate) of toxic assets spread around the world.

 45 Trillion of toxic assets. I would say in light of that number (45 Trillion), that overall the administration has done a damn good job of stabilizing the markets, with a relatively small percentage of cash  when you look at the Big Picture. 

 You act like these are normal economic times and they are definitely NOT!

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Yes, yes, ML.

I know.  The sky is falling.  But of course the sky is falling.  Without a falling sky you wouldn't have a reason to take over that umbrella factory you had your eye on.  Right?

Facism (as in state run business) is definitely on the rise, and more and more popular with the progressive crowd it seems.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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You really need to get out more....

 IN case you hand't noticed, Bear Stearns collapsed, as did Lehman Bros both historic investment institutions.

 You can pretend that there hasn't been a half a million jobs lost per month, or that auto sales aren't down by more than half, or that the Stock Market didn't crash last Sept. or that Iceland that copies the US investment model didn't go bankrupt, if you like. 

Get your head out of the sand. Your 401k tanked in 08.

 If you want to worry about fascism, then why have I never heard one whimper from you on Wal-Mart, or Halliburton, or Citibank?

 

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Huh?

If you want to worry about fascism, then why have I never heard one whimper from you on Wal-Mart, or Halliburton, or Citibank?

Wal-Mart, Halliburton, and/or Citibank are facist?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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WooHoo, That's a good one!

(While trying to keep a striaght face.)

What has stabalized exactly? The same essential economic conditions exist today, as did before Geitner spent all that money.

Nothing has gotten better ML, it's worse, you just got used to it.

Which would had been nice had your adjustment to the current conditions been before we blew all that money!

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Well one could argue that

 nothing has gotten better in So. Carolina because of your (stupid) governor. So I can see why you would think that.

 

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Anywhere ML, show me.

nt.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Cost Accounting/ Budget planning.

Budget per person might be more useful if the average budget per person was used. More people equals a likely larger budget.

Plus Charles J's point about true cost. If someone buys a widget making machine for $3,00K to transfer title in one period, but cost $55k in materials to meet OSHA standards, $15k in training, $45k in extra supplies and supply chain staff overtime to get the machine operational, $500k a year in extra direct staff for the machines operation. Then the machine never really cost only $3,000k in the first place.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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This is all well and good ...

Plus Charles J's point about true cost. If someone buys a widget making machine for $3,00K to transfer title in one period, but cost $55k in materials to meet OSHA standards, $15k in training, $45k in extra supplies and supply chain staff overtime to get the machine operational, $500k a year in extra direct staff for the machines operation. Then the machine never really cost only $3,000k in the first place.

But this is all accounted for in the budget automatically.  The budget represents total outlays which, by definition, must include all of those hidden factors.  The only major discrepency in this case was the war spending which was done off to the side as emergency appropriations rather than through the normal budget process.  My updated charts take that into account.

In any event, this is an apples to apples comparison for the items it covers.  If there are hidden expenses not captured here they will only make things worse, not better, because the $100M in budget cuts is fixed and, more importantly, on a ridiculously different order of magnitude.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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For those who though Mr. Obama hired Mr. Koh for no "particular"

reason, you may want to read this .

It seems Obama is also seeking $100B in loans for the IMF, which suggests we will be seeing an expanded role for the IMF, and of course in typical Obama fashion - we don't have any time to think about it, it has to happen now .

Good news for post American era, trans-nationalist advocates like Koh , bad news for America IMO.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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