News Cycle Roundup: Post-Earth Day Edition
Good afternoon Swordsmen! Live, from Chicago, IL..well..technically Schaumburg. Here's your Roundup for Wednesday and Thursday. Torture seems to be on your minds these days, also partisanship, oh and Miss America's runner up. C'mon, admit it--if you didn't Google, would you know who won? I digress. on the ledger today: Room designs, gun marches, cyber threats, fascism explained, and going green. and I threw a little torture in there for good measure.
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Megan Mcardle enters the torture debate .
WT Huston, via Redstate, tweaks DHS on eliminating waste they shouldn't have had in the first place.
Can we get some cyber-security in our military? Quick ?
NY-20: Tedisco slips some more.
A peaceful demonstration of at least a million — hey, if we can get 10 million, even better — but at least one million armed militia men marching on Washington. A peaceful demonstration. No shooting, no one gets hurt. Just a demonstration. The only difference from any typical demonstration is we will all be armed.
My father owns 12 guns (that I know of). No assualt weapons or anything, just a few pistols and rifles. He's not crazy--he's old school. But armed militias marching on Washington? Good luck with that guys. Malcolm X was villified for suggesting such an idea.
Saul Anuzis: See, this is why we call Obama a facist .
Mike DeJong: Hypocrites! Oh, not you Saul. I'm talking about the Green Movement .
SciAm has a blurb on how room designs affect your thought process . apparently you should have columns in your house /work location, and you'll be inspired to do great things.
- Charles J's blog
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Comments :
"The Million Militia Man March"
In one of the Israeli wars in the last half century, one side did military drills routinely at one spot near the border, then one day, they used that same routine to hide a first strike invasion.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Just imagine if one million armed citizens marched in DC.
The police would hide. Literally, it would be rob any bank you want day, so long as it's on the other side of town from the million armed marchers.
And by the way....We could put Swords Crossed on the blogmap if we want. just start a petition asking Texas to secede from the Union. You'll get every DKossac & RedStater over here signing the damned thing.
Drudge via Politico has Nancy Pelosi by the short hairs.
It seems Nancy Pelosi
- is a big fat liar
.
IMO, if this is so, she should be removed from the house.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
When does Drudge not have Pelosi by the short hairs
is the bigger question?
Also if you believe Nancy should be fired, then why would you not want Cheney, Addington, and the rest of the crew to be fired.
Or would you chose to defend Cheney's authoring the memos, over Nancy's allegedly hearing about them?
I'm only half stupid
By remaining silent ...
Pelosi put her own interests above those of the people she claims have been tortured. What kind of person does that? Where's the compassion?
She's worried about some pesky legal problems while people are being tortured in her name and with her knowledge. This is just apalling, IMHO. She didn't even try to be an anonymous source to leak the information, why is that?
She should be run out of Congress and prosecuted along with all the other bad apples.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4You are admitting
that there were bad apples, then? The ones that condoned torture with legal opinions.
Good. We are making progress.
I'm only half stupid
Sure, why not.
Under the assumption that YOUR premise that torture was commited is correct:
Bad Apple =
(1) Anyone who issued an illegal order to commit torture,
(2) anyone who executed an illegal order to commit torture,
(3) and anyone who is complicit in the coverup of an illegal order to commit torture by remaining silent when they knew the details of the torture techniques to be employed.
Nancy dear is part of group #3.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4My premise
is that those who authorized the torture should be held accountable.
As for prosecuting the individual CIA agents, or the entire Congress, I don't think that would be productive.
I would like to see Cheney take the SERE training, however, since he claims that torturing the most elite armed forces to prepare them for capture and possible torture, is not really torture.
I frankly would have been happier if Obama had not released these memos. I find it interesting that Secretary Gates was on board with their release.
I'm only half stupid
I'd be happy if they went after the lawyers licenses.
Take their law licenses away from them & slap every single politician who knew, both Democratic & Republican with big fines.
The whole situation
is a trauma to my brain. I can't even stand hearing about the abuse, let alone reading a whole freaking memo.
We all knew. So should we all get fines? The scary aspect of this is that a line was crossed, and we all knew, could do nothing about it and have become somewhat numbed.
The other aspect that people are overlooking here is an over reach of executive authority, essentially rewriting long standing law.
So even though I despise this whole debate, I guess I am grudgingly welcoming it.
One other point that is fascinating......... as GoRight said....... fire the Nancies. Well that implies that we should fire the Republicans too. They can't blame the democrats without also admitting blame. Oh my isnt that interesting.
I would be happy with disbarring. Cheney's legacy will be the torture.
I'm only half stupid
But this is my point.
You can't be selective. Either eveybody gets a pass not noone gets a pass. To target only some, especially along partisan lines, will not be acceptable.
So I argue that WBing as it was defined by the DOJ in those memos passes legal muster. If we want to take things to trial to hash it out further than that, I am OK with that but everyone is at risk ... not just the political enemies of those currently in power and especially not when they were aware of what was going on.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Agreed...
.... I'm just not sure how this would work with respect to the members of congress who were briefed. Somebody help me out here.... select members of congress were briefed, but would have been sworn to secrecy, so they couldn't reveal the information. If they did not object does that constitute a binding agreement on their part? They didn't 'vote'. I'm not even sure what the mechanism for objection would be -- verbal? A letter? Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, didn't Rockefeller send just such a letter after being briefed on either this or the revised wiretapping program?
In any case, I do agree with the larger point. If the program is reviewed and the techniques used are found to have been illegal, then anyone who was involved in creating, approving, ordering, or carrying out those illegal activities shares responsibility. I'm fairly certain that the administration's shifting & unclear stance regarding investigations and prosecutions is directly related to this.
I've got one more dumb question for anyone who knows -- didn't the military commisions act of '06 state that the CIA program of 'enhanced interrogation' was legal for enemy combatants? If so, is there any precedent for applying that retroactively? Just curious.
A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings
I seem to remember reading about this ...
I don't think that they are allowed to criminalize something that happened in the past retroactively for obvious reasons. However they can go back retroactively and clarify an ambiuous point or make it illegal to prosecute people for past actions. For example, the bill thatwas passed to give immunity to the telcos for cooperating with Bush.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4But of course you want to be selective.
It allows you to pursue your partisan goals. This much is abundantly clear.
If you were actually interested in prosecuting those who enabled and committed what you consider to be illegal torture, then you should want to prosecute everyone involved not just your political enemies. Your selectivity in this case highlights your fundamentally partisan motives.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4No.....
That is incorrect. You are projecting your motives onto others.
The fact that we are even debating if America tortures, is a shock to the consciousness of the American soul.
I'm only half stupid
Ah yes, the American soul
Like when we dropped the bomb on Nagasaki-vaporized hundreds of thousands of civilians-and were thrilled about it. Or when we bombed Dresden-and killed innocents by the building full while we turned it into a flat spot on the earth-and we were overjoyed. We had ticker tape parades, and named holidays after them.
It is war ML! (And if you try to qualify that one I will tell you first hand, it is a war.)
The Bush administration went to great lengths to do this the right way, there was not even soft tissue damage let alone torture!
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
We weren't thrilled, or overjoyed.
There was plenty of angst and fretting about it. Especially Dresden, which had little value as a military target. The rationale was to end the war faster, but you mischaracterize our national consciousness (even in 1945) as being that bloodthirsty.
The Bush administration rarely went to any lengths at all to do anything the right way, especially if it might have hurt them politically (see KSM Library tower plot, lying about). And quit implying that "soft tissue damage" is some kind of prerequisite for defining torture. It isn't, and in any case many of the approved techniques did in fact cause that.
Bush administration officials rationalized and ordered torture. Torture is illegal under US law. When you break US law you should normally be prosecuted, but unfortunately that's up to the executive. Who keeps annoyingly blabbing about "looking forward". As an apologist for Republican misconduct, you should consider yourself lucky.
Do you support the prosecution ...
of those who committed the act you purport to be torture?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Yes.
If they really were confused about the legality, which they shouldn't have been, I'd be OK with the US Attorney offering them a deal in exchange for flngering those who ordered and/or speciously tried to justify it.
Really?
True, my point regarding Dresden should have been, we do things in a time of war to save lives and win the fight that would otherwise not be considered.
As for Nagaski;
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
I would think they were celebrating
the then-inevitable end of the war (without bloodily invading Honshu), and maybe a little schadendfreude for Pearl Harbor.
Not eighty thousand people being vaporized.
Yes, however you trickily pole vault the point
It was a part of what had to happen to defeat the enemy, and we did it.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
What point?
That those grisly acts of war were necessary? I wasn't debating that. Whatever the moral implications of carpet-bombing a mostly civilian population or shocking a defiant enemy into surrender, those acts did not then and probably still do not constitute war crimes.
I took issue with your claiming we were thrilled about it. We are not a nation of Curtis LeMays.
Comparing Getting Information
from enemy combatants or detainees, to bombing cities during WWll is completely and wholly disengenious.
It is a completely different subject.
Dropping bombs during a legally declared World War, vs gleaning valuable information from captives and how it is done, is a ridiculous comparison and not relevant to the subject that is being discussed.
I'm only half stupid
So, you would argue ...
that a pilot who knowingly drops napalm on a populated village and incinerates the inhabitants thereof is not committing torture, or at least something just as heinous as that? You position seems to be a little muddled to me.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Extremely muddled.
nt.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
That's got to be the stupidest
excuse for torture I have ever heard.
I'm only half stupid
You don't think that burning someone alive is torture ...
but pouring water on their face in such a way that they cannot drown is? How do you reconcile that position?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Chewbacca Defense?
One the person is detained, the other the person is not.
Doesn't mean that burning people is the cool and fun thing to do. Doesn't mean that fire bombing wasn't used as a form of wholesale terror on civilian population.
The US didn't have much in the way of precision weaponry during WWII.
After some attempts at relatively low risk "precision bombing" the US decided to fire bomb cities.
Intentionally placing military targets near civilians should be a war crime.
Not trying to place military targets away from civilians should be war crime.
Carpet bombing industrial sectors near large civilian populations with napalm should always be considered a war crime.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Moral equivalence meter breaks
Using GoRight logic:
Being kept barely alive in a prison cell and tortured (gallons of water involuntarily poured into your mouth and lungs) for months and years, vs death by burning alive, makes the case that being burned alive in this instance looks like a mercy killing that would actually prevent suffering.
I'm only half stupid
Only in your fantasy world ...
where this could be an actual true statement:
If they every poured that much water into someone's lungs there would be very little point to asking them any further questions, or for puring more water on them for that matter.
Is it actually your contention that the detainees at Gitmo are "barely alive"? Do you have some evidence of this?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Oops
You changed the subject.
Your question:
"You don't think being burned alive is torture but pouring water on their face [into their lungs] in such a way that they cannot drown is? How do you reconcile that position?"
Being tortured for months or years, vs being burned alive, one could argue that being burned alive would be more merciful and prevent suffering.
Why would you make an assumption that my statement was in reference to Gitmo? I was just making a general observation on torture (having water poured into your lungs repeatedly) vs burning alive as per your question.
_____
I'm only half stupid
Explain the difference between ...
the bottom line effects of being burned alive vs. having water "poured into your lungs" even once? In either case you will end up just as dead and just as quickly. Once you are dead they can continue to pour water into your lungs all that they want and you won't even care a bit.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4That is not the issue at hand
The issue is did enhanced interrogation techniques and methods outlined by those in the Bush administration exceed the legal limits when the precedent set against water boarding was redefined by legal briefs and opinions.
What you are I might find morally repugnant is not the question.
The question is was the reasoning in these legal briefs sound and did it exceed the limits of the law.
I'm only half stupid
Hey, no problem.
True enough, but you were the one that asserted that you can't compare the atrocity of torture to the atrocity of fire-bombing
. I disagreed and so I chose to pursue that angle. Given that you seem to have run out of defensible ground on that point and now want to return to the original topic at hand I am OK with that. :)
You seem to be confused by what these memos are and the weight that they carry. The law is the law. Period. No one is redefining anything. The law means what it means. The courts get to judge what that is. Simple, no?
But we all know that the law (in general, not torture specifically) tends to be an ambiguous thing which is open to interpretation. Opinions can and do vary on what those interpretations should be. These memos represent one such interpretation as defined by the US DOJ at the time they were written.
The courts get to decide whether they are an accurate reflection of what the law truly means, not you, so I'll thank you to stop trying to obfuscate things with your biased terms like "redefined" when, in fact, nothing is being redefined.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Your two statements contradict each other GR
"The law is the law. Period. The law means what it means. "
&
"But we all know that the law tends to be an ambiguous thing which is open to interpretation. Opinions can and do vary on what those interpretations should be."
So John Yoo's opinion could be open to being struck down by the courts and I believe it will be.
I'm only half stupid
I think you fail to grasp my meaning ...
and possibly because I have not expressed myself clearly.
My point is that the law at any given point in time is a fixed text. It is what it is and it is unchanging. Unless the legislature takes action to alter the text then the law and its inherent true meaning are fixed.
The problem, of course, is trying to devine what that inherent true meaning actually is. This is where things become ambiguous because any written expression of a concept, such as a law, is open to interpretation of what it actually means. This is just a reality of written languages.
So lots of people render lots of opinions on what THEY THINK that meaning is, and ultimately the courts listen to all of these interpretations and accept some and throw the rest out. That decision then becomes precedent for any future rulings related to the same law (not that precendents can't ever be reversed, of course). It is through this iterative process that we successively refine (and therefore devine) what the inherent true meaning of a given law is.
So I don't believe my statements were contradictory, they were merely incomplete and possibly ill-expressed.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Fair enough.
Therefore it is possible that John Yoo and David Addington were covering their asses by writing legal opinions to redefine the parameters of what is or is not torture.
It is also possible the their legal briefs will not hold weight, which is essentially has already been determined to be the case, since the US as stopped using the methods defined by their briefs.
Torture is not really a conservative value. Even Ronald Reagan said so.
And for the record I detest all this 'justified moral outrage', on the torture. It's done. It's over. We don't do it anymore. The black sites are closed. The military at Gitmo is not engaging in torture, and most of the military was never on board the torture train in the first place. The few bad apples here were, in my opinion at the VP's office.
I'm only half stupid
Responses.
Of course this is possible. But generally only if you want to assume bad faith on their part as any true partisan would. It is also possible that their motives had nothing whatsoever to do with CYA and they were rendering their true legal opinions. And even IF they were simply writing the opinions as a CYA move, that doesn't even mean that they are wrong.
It is also possible that all of the Democrats expressing "concern" over what has happened are simply making the entire thing up for what they perceive to be political gain.
I still disagree with the use of "redefine" in this context because that presupposes that there was a universally accepted "definition" prior to this and as we have clearly seen there was none. At least not an unambiguous one that can be used to judge which things cross the line and which do not.
We only have Obama's word on that. I have provided current evidence that suggests he not only hasn't stopped the interrogations and torture (by your definition), but that things have actually gotten worse since he took office, not better.
Either way, Obama changing interrogation policy does NOT determine what is, or is not, legal. That's what the courts are for.
But of course this is the case. We have never condoned torture. The claims to the contrary are purely manufactured for political gain.
Again, we only have Obama's word on that and the evidence suggests he is not being entirely truthful. This comment assumes your definition of torture, of course. By mine we never committed torture in the first place.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4For now I will take issue with just this one statement.
" ....also possible that all of the Democrats expressing "concern" over what has happened are simply making the entire thing up for what they perceive to be political gain."
This will not benefit the democrats necessarily. There are other much more pressing and immediate issues on the table.
I think it is possible that this would hurt Republicans who chose to defend Dick Cheney and his merry band of lawyers.
I have even heard rumors that Bill Kristol is so enarmored of Cheney's daughter's defense of Yoo's torture memo that he wants her, not Palin to run for President. Would conservatives be willing to support a gay female who advocates for torture, er I mean enhanced interrogation?
I'm only half stupid
Silly ML ...
Anything that hurst the Republicans helps the Democrats by definition. That is the nature of a two party system.
I don't know enough about her to say either way. But I can say that neither being gay nor being female is a disqualifying characteristic in my book.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4and yes we agree
It is a reasonable question to ask, why as per said infamous memos, was one of the detainees waterboarded repeatedly over many months time, if as you suggest that would likely not produce useful information. It would seem as you suggest that there was not much point in asking said detainee further questions or continuing to pour water into his lungs.
I'm only half stupid
Dead men tell no tales.
Pour "gallons of water" into someone's lung and they will surely die. Since KSM is still alive we can reasonably conclude that he did NOT have gallons of water poured into his lungs.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4You are quite unbelievable
The purpose of interrogating someone is not to kill them. It is to get them to answer questions.
That is why most of those who were interrogated are still alive. Double duh!
This is a strawman argument on steroids.
You say enhanced interrogation has not crossed the legal line into torture because most people that have been interrogated have not died.
You are trying to equate bombing cities to enhanced interrogation. There is no comparison. One action is designed to kill people. The other action is designed to get them answer questions against their will.
Legal limits have been set as to what constitutes crossing the line to torture. That is the issue at hand. Was the law broken, or in other words, was the legal reasoning for promoting these 'special methods' sound.
I'm only half stupid
But that was MY point ...
You are the one claiming that our detainees had "gallons of water poured into their lungs repeatedly," and if you were not talking specifically about what we did then the same would also be true of anyone else that intended to get answers from the people they were interrogating.
I am merely pointing out that this is clearly not possible and it doing so operates against the very objectives of any interrogation.
I just want you to admit that we never did any such thing to any of the people we interrogated. Do you deny that if we had "poured gallons of water into someone's lungs" it would have undoubtedly killed them?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4gallons of water
were poured into KSM lungs over a period of months, while he was stuck in a box and held captive by the US. It likely came close to killing him.
You absolutely can not make a comparison between war and torture, though both are very icky.
If you kill a man on the battle field you are a hero.
If you pretend to kill a man slowly in a box to get him to tell you something while you listen to him screaming all night as he pulls his own hair out, that is torture. You are not a hero unless he tells you something and if he is dead your mission is not accomplished.
I'm only half stupid
This is patently false.
You have no basis for making this claim and in fact the memos suggest that specific precautions were taken to explicitly prevent this from happening. If you have any evidence to support this claim please provide it.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Number of times KSM
was water boarded per day multiplied by now much water was used over a period of months, the amount could definitely be gallons. I would postulate that it would take a minimum of pouring a gallon of water into his mouth to get the desired effect of filling the lungs with water to simulate drowning.
One gallon, two gallons, three gallons. To say that is was poured over his head or mouth is misleading. The water is poured into your mouth to force it into your lungs.
I am sure they took precautions to keep him alive, but unwell, because they considered him valuable. Also they did not want a headline broadcast to the world that said he had died while being held captive.
Wondering why you would even care, especially since he is still alive?
I'm only half stupid
:) Intentionally obtuse? Or actually obtuse?
Sorry, this would not be a simulated drowning. This would be an actual drowning. You do understand that if you fill someone's lungs with water that they drown, right? They never put any water into KSM's lungs. They took specific actions to prevent water entering his lungs.
The fact that he is alive proves you are wrong on this point and that they did, in fact, take the precautions specified in the memo. The very precautions that prevented these actions from crossing the line into being torture.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Prove it
:-)
Never..... as in never ever did any water get into his lungs. That's incredulous.
I don't think you can simulate drowning unless you get some water in your lungs.
Just because he is alive does not mean he was not tortured...... that's just a stupid thing to say!
I'm only half stupid
You prove it.
You are the one claiming he had gallons of water in his lungs. For my part I have already provided a very decent argument to back up my position:
(1) The memos prescribe procedures to prevent water from entering his lungs.
(2) He is still alive.
This is true, but it IS proof that we didn't torture him by putting gallons of water in his lungs. :)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Yes water goes into the lungs
First hand accounts.
http://waterboarding.org/firsthand
"Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word."
, Waterboarding is Torture… Period
, Small Wars Journal, October 31, 2007
— Malcom Nance
I was a Navy Aircrewman and was subjected to waterboarding twice while attending SERE school in California in 1984. From what I am reading, their techniques have changed somewhat. During my experience on the waterboard, no cloths were used over my face. The water was poured straight into my nose while one interrogator held his hand over my mouth. When I couldn't hold my breath any longer, I inhaled and the water went into my lungs. I was unable to move due to being strapped to the board from head to toe. When I started vomiting, they release my head to allow me to throw up. I refused to answer their questions and I was subjected to it again. I couldn't take it any more and gave them a few answers just to get it to stop. It was absolutely horrible. There were 35 men in our group that went through the training. To the best of my knowledge, only 4 of us got the
waterboard treatment. I was the first lucky bastard to get it. Having the water being poured directly into my nose seems much worse than using the wet cloth technique.
— Anonymous email to Waterboarding.org, Apr 23, 2009
"Why are we talking about this in the White House? History will not judge this kindly."
, ABC News April 9, 2008
— Attorney General Ashcroft, Top Bush Advisors Approved 'Enhanced Interrogation'
http://waterboarding.org/official_procedure
The CIA guidelines suggest that the body is tilted so that water does not get into the lungs. It also mandates length of time to pour water and the number of times.
It is questionable if they followed these guidelines, however, regarding either duration or water in the lungs. The violation of protocol specifically of Zubayday is apparent when we learn that he was boarded, at least 83 times in August of 02, and 183 times in March of 03. If they violated one protocol there is no reason to believe they didn't violate others.
Even if one gets gallons of water in their lungs during torture, there is no reason to believe that they can't recover to be water boarded another day.
Since the first hand accounts detail water filling into the lungs, we can assume that this occurs and in fact over a period of months gallons of water could have entered, and been discharged from the lungs time and time again, to facilitate of feeling of helplessness, suffocation, and near death.
I'm only half stupid
Weird.
I just realized that Zubaydah was tortured in Aug. of 02, and Porter Goss then director of the CIA wrote in the Washington Post today that he informed the Congress, of the Enhanced INterrogation Program in the Fall of 02.
That means technically that Goss broke the law, as he is required to inform the Congress before such activities take place.
He also flatly states that he informed the Gang of Four, the ranking and minority member of the House and Senate and intelligence committee, but by law he is required to also inform the Congressional leadership.
Oops Porter Goss, me thinks ye protest too much. You should have kept your mouth shut. You just admitted that you broke the law.
He also stated that these techniques were 'to be employed', not that you were already employing them, which vindicates Nancy Pelosi's statement, and clears her of any wrong doing.
Porter Goss, me thinks you are the leaky one at the CIA. IN your zeal to implicate others, you have revealed too much and implicated yourself instead.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/24/AR200904...
I'm only half stupid
A couple of points.
Tortured by whom? Not by us. We never tortured Zubaydah.
"Fall", or "Autumn"
, begins on the Autumnal Equinox
which occurs on September 22 or 23 each year, and ends on the Winter Solstice on December 21 or 22 each year. So it is quite possible for Goss to have briefed them "in the fall of 02" and still have done so prior to "August of 02."
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4???
What, is he Benjamin Button?
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Sorry, don't catch the reference.
And after your "jerk" comment I have little incentive to look it up.
What part of my point was confusing, perhaps I can clear it up for you.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Confusion
I'm confused by the part where you say September to December can occur prior to August in a given calendar year.
Benjamin Button is a fictional character who lives his life backwards in time.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Doh! I stand corrected.
For some unknown reason I had it in my head that September preceded August, not followed it, so now your reference and the explanation thereof are clear. Clever. :)
There are, of course, other possible explanations for this discrepency. Obviously this one fell quite short of the mark.
Some possibilities:
---------------------------------------------------
* In Australia
, autumn begins on 1 March and ends May 31.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Porter Goss is your typical
apparatchik, following orders.
Goss stuck his foot in his mouth big time and proves he is a light weight in the brains department.
I'm only half stupid
But of course this violates the procedures defined ...
in the DOJ memos, by definition. And if Malcolm Nance performed waterboarding as he describes it here, I would agree, he was torturing people. Actually, more specifically, he was drowning them. I have already acknowledged that if waterboarding is done outside the prescribe techniques that it could cross the line into being torture. Malcolm Nance's style of waterboarding would be one such example. But this, of course, is not inconsistent with my positions statement.
I reject the anonymous email as being significant for the obvious reasons. Anyone could have written it so it has no credibility. But even if it was credible the account in that case also clearly violates the prescribed procedure and by that individual's own conjecture the procedure described in the memos would have been less severe.
This is undoubtedly true, but meh, you do what you have to do within the bounds of the law.
Questionable? Perhaps. Proven that they actually violated either duration or water in the lungs in any sense sense of the word? Not even close. Like I said, prove that they exceeded the guidlines in any meaningful way and I am on board with letting them take their chances in court. But not that in that case you would be prosecuting the people who violated the guidelines, not the ones who drafted them.
This is clearly false. If you actually got gallons of water in your lungs you would die, and probably quickly and irretrievably. There would be no way to expell that much water from the lungs quickly enough to matter.
Only for the style of techniques used in those accounts, which we have already seen clearly violate the prescribed guidelines.
Possibly, but unlikely for a program that adheres to the prescribed guidelines.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4All this....
and what did they get for it? Was it worth it?
The speculation backed by facts seems to be that Zabaydah was tortured before the memo's were written to justify the tougher techniques.
The worst aspect of this unseemly mess is that Zabaydah was tortured with the specific intent of getting him to confess a link between bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, so that Cheney would have the justification for invading Iraq.
In other words the torture was politically motivated to justify the invading Iraq, by torturing Zabaydah without legal authorization to get him to say the bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were good pals.
Good Lord, this is more sickening than I originally thought.
I'm only half stupid
Making crap up ... (Updated)
it may be you, but more likely your sources, but I'm going out on a limb here and going to say I'll bet when you dig into the details that this is a fabricated story. References please?
UPDATE:
Crickets? Please provide a reference for where you are finding this "speculation backed up by facts", or is this entirely your own speculation?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4I will as soon
as get all the other crap I have to do done. :-)
I'm only half stupid
Lets just ask politely when their next plot is hatching.
Cause we sure don't want to simulate drowning or anything with guys like these
and their friends to get information that would stop this kind of sh!t and worse from happening here.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
You can read and decide
You can read and decide what you think.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089
It's the dates.
Abu Zubayday was captured in the Spring of 02. The first memo was dated Aug. 02. You can see there is a gap of several months.
Shortly after his capture he was questioned and gave useful and relevant information to an FBI agent whom he came to trust, which as still the spring of 02. Why the time gap for the memo?
http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089/page/2
"Last week Soufan, 37, now a security consultant who spends most of his time in the Middle East, decided to tell the story of his involvement in the Abu Zubaydah interrogations publicly for the first time. In an op-ed in The New York Times and in a series of exclusive interviews with NEWSWEEK, Soufan described how he, together with FBI colleague Steve Gaudin, began the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah. They nursed his wounds, gained his confidence and got the terror suspect talking. They extracted crucial intelligence—including the identity of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as the architect of 9/11 and the dirty-bomb plot of Jose Padilla—before CIA contractors even began their aggressive tactics.
... assertions by Cheney and others that "enhanced" techniques worked, Soufan feels compelled to speak out. "I was in the middle of this, and it's not true that these [aggressive] techniques were effective," he says. "We were able to get the information about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in a couple of days. We didn't have to do any of this [torture
]. We could have done this the right way."
Soufan's assertion was buttressed by Philip Zelikow, the former executive director of the 9/11 Commission, who last week called Soufan "one of the most impressive intelligence agents—from any agency" that the panel encountered. After joining the Bush administration in 2005, Zelikow argued against the enhanced-interrogation techniques. He wrote a memo questioning the legal justification for the methods—advice he says the White House ordered destroyed."
----------
You recall Philip Zelikow from the interview you watched and commented that he was a good and honest man.
"The Aug. 1, 2002, memo from the Department of Justice wasn't the first piece of legal guidance for the [interrogation] program."
If this statement from the article is true, then there are questions because I don't believe it was reported to the proper channels, which is technically the law ( written after Watergate).
Here is an op-ed from the NYT that Sufan wrote.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=So...
The first memo was dated Aug. 02. So obviously there is a gap in time. And the claim that torture elicted the relevant information that led to KSM and Jose Padilla was obtained before Abu Z. was tortured. It was Soufan from the FBI that got the intelligence. NOT the CIA.
As for Mr. Padilla, the dates just don’t add up: the harsh techniques were approved in the memo of August 2002, Mr. Padilla had been arrested that May.
Above is evidence that they claimed that Padilla was revealed as a terrorist suspect because of torture, and that is frankly impossible to square with all the facts that have been presented thus far.
______
The speculation:
The question is why would the CIA continue to torture Abu Z? The speculation is that they were looking desperately for a link between al_Queda and Saddam Hussein to justify invading Iraq.
It is noteworthy that this was during that period that Cheney was frantically trying to connect aluminum tubes in Nigeria with yellow cake for uranium to Iraq. They were desperately looking for a way to make the case to go to war in Iraq.
Cheney kept pushing for a link between al_Queda and Iraq. He insisted that 'they' find something, but there was no credible evidence ever found to make the connection between bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.
I'm only half stupid
Absolute garbage.
Straight from the inner workings of ML's mind.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
You've not participated in this discussion
except for this uplifting message.
I can say garbage too. I can even say absolute garbage!!
Until you can provide proven facts, regarding time, place and quality of information, then maybe you could offer something a little more constructive other than smelly refuse as a legitimate argument.
As the WaPo article that I linked verifies in Porter Goss's own words, when the memos were written and when Zabudyah was questioned.
There seems to be a premature interrogation problem.
As stated, I'd like to see this turned over to the DOJ and move on. Defending torture, as you seem to be insisting is to stay stuck on stupid.
I'm only half stupid
From the threadjacker herself.
Which link? Hmm? Certainly not the Pravda on the Potomac piece.
Though PG makes a number of excellent points that would behoove you to heed, nothing in your link comes remotely close to;
But that doesn't seem to stop you from saying it anyway.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
What your President said today
“The president said that given all that’s on the agenda and the pressing issues facing the country, that a backward-looking investigation would not be productive,” a White House official who attended the session said. “The president was very clear…that he believes it’s important that there’s not a witch hunt.”
I agree. Let the DOJ handle this and let's move on to other matters.
I'm only half stupid
Kudos to him for expressing a principled position.
As long as he sticks to it I give him points for taking this stand.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4She is flat out fabricating things
She is being duplicitous regarding her awareness of water boarding.
She is doing the same about the current wire tapping case.
She is almost as bad as our Vice President, well then again, maybe not.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Sorry to burst your bubble but National Security data
that's given to our Congresscritters & Senators can not legally be shared with ANYONE.
And when the NSA tells you anything in private, that's National Security data. If Nancy had said anything to anyone, then Nancy would have been the one to go to jail.
One good thing did come of it all though. With the revelation that Harmon was in cahoots with the AIPAC boys, that effectivly killed her chances at becoming Chariman of the House Intel Comittee which obviously makes our government a whole bunch safer right there.
Now do I wish that Democrats had broken that law and told Americans what the bush43 Administration was doing in their names? You're damn right I wish they had.
Just one more thing
I hope to make this my last comment on the subject of the torture.
The unreliable claims of Karl Rove who triumphantly declared on Fox News that water boarding Kalid Sheikh Mohammed prevented a 'West Coast 9/11' by thwarting an attack on the US Bank Building in Los Angeles (the Library Tower).
Small problem. The plot that was foiled was a plan from Feb. 2002.
KSM was not captured until March 2003.
The truth here is that what the American public was subjected to here, was tortured logic.
I'm only half stupid
Where did you get that info ML, The Bush Sucks Website?
Because once again you are mistaken.
In an article from Tuesday
we find otherwise.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Another Obama Do As I Say Not As I Do Enviromental Moment
President Obama continues to defy the very logic he proposes you and I live by, so it really comes as no surprise when we find he himself was probably the single worst polluter of our planet on good old Earth Day
.
Now that I think about it, why is he forcing us into a collectivized state, mandatory volunteering, cash "tax refunds" for those who pay none, etc?
Maybe because he thinks we, are like him.
I mean maybe he thinks even if we had made 8 million bucks from our good fortune, we would horde it all - and not even help out our destitute Aunt and Uncle who immigrated here, and was living on welfare - in public housing, or our half brother who lives in a shed in Africa
? Even if we had played off their misfortune - in order to make ours good.
Naw, surely he knows by any standard we are a better, a more caring, generous people than that
!
Well, most of us anyway
.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Meh. n/t
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Painful huh?
Sorry. ;-)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Nicely done.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/world/middleeast/26diplo.html?hp
Insert the word Clinton, for Obama, and Iraq for America.
A country divided by rejectionists fears, that the country is headed in the right direction.
I'm only half stupid
These people are hilarious.
Have we changed directions in Iraq since Obama took office, or does this mean that Clinton now agrees with the Bush vision for Iraq?
What were her views on Iraq just a few short years ago?
It sounds like Hillary has come around to Bush and Patreus' point of view. I wonder what changed her mind in such a dramatic fashion? :)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Put in a no win situation
we have to make the best of it.
I personally am excited that we now have people in charge that actually know what they are doing.
Obama and Patreus agreed in that same hearing that a stabilized Iraq means accepting a certain level of chaos, as in Iraq will not look like Bush's vision of a little America.
I am pleased to see Hillary's pragmatism here on accessing the realities of the situation. The rejectionists in Iraq are the problem. Those not interested in a unified country.
I see a similar situation in the US, what with rejectionists, not wanting a unified America.
The rejectionists in the Republican party seem to be as equally invested in dividing our country as the rejectionists in Iraq, some even threatening to take their toys and secede from the union.
I'm only half stupid
LOL
Yea, and they are doing exactly what the previous administration was doing. That's hilarious given all of the previous faux outrage and denunciation of these exact policies.
You obviously don't care about the policies or the outcome, you are just happy that they are Democrats.
You have that backwards. The Republicans clearly want a unified country. It is Reid and Pelosi who refuse to let the opposition have a voice. They are the ones rejecting an unified message.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Your words give lie to your motives....
If I was as partisan as you suggest, then I would be railing against Gates and Patreus, and screaming for a special prosecuter to investigate the torture.
I don't recall Californians or any other blue state threatening to secede from the union after Bush was appointed by the Supreme Court do you?
I'm only half stupid
Sorry, not going to take the bait.
The issue at hand is that the policies in Iraq that Obama and Clinton are now praising are the exact same ones that they were denouncing just 2 years ago. What have they changed, policy-wise in Iraq, since they came into power?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4"Scientists Isolate and Treat Parasite Causing Decline in Honey
"Scientists Isolate and Treat Parasite Causing Decline in Honey Bee Population"
A Spanish team claims to have found and cured the parasite that was killing off bees in droves.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Cool
Long live the honey bees.
I'm only half stupid
National Journal Poll says
People trust Obama.
The right track wrong track numbers have moved from 12% believing the country was on the right track in Octoboer, 08 to 47% believing it is on the right track since Obama took office.
I'm only half stupid
There's the problem with the economy right there ...
Lawrence Summers - Chief Economics Advisor to President Obama
during a meeting with credit card executives in the White House today.
The Obama Administration hard at work for you!
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Obama showing how articulate he is...again.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
The Obama Cap and Trade Tax?
It's hidden and it's regressive. Go figure.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Bleah
I'd much rather see a straight carbon tax myself. I'm not really sure why cap and trade seems to be the more likely to pass. :(
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
why cap and trade, not tax
I too prefer a straight tax (as do most economists, as I understand it).
Politically, there seem to be two reasons for cap-n-trade:
1) It avoids the word tax, though it is in fact a tax
2) It enables sneaky give-away (permits based on previous pollution) to politically powerful polluters. On one level, I think this is disgusting; on another level, I understand why it is politically necessary to make sure that this policy does not disrupt the status quo too much.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
WSJ opinions are junk (re: cap and trade)
Disclaimer: Everything written below assumes that the above article is meant to be a criticism of Obama administration policy.
GR, I hope you realize that this opinion piece (like most of the WSJ opinion pages) are not written to persuade people -- they are written to fire up the base. Anyone who reads this opinion with a skeptical eye will be thinking "BS!" every other sentence.
First, this article is written as though there is no value in reducing CO2 emissions.
Second, the author claims that this tax is regressive:
So what? Just the other day I read a WSJ editorial whining about how Obama wants to soak the rich. Maybe after reading this article, right wingers will understand that Obama is not implementing a robin-hood scheme to steal from the rich and give to the poor. He's just another establishment politician who is trying to manage society (and pay off his supporters).
Third, the author explicitly contradicts himself:
vs.
Last time I checked, $680 was well within the $400-800 range.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
Exactly
Yes, so what? Any carbon tax scheme, unless it is needlessly complex, is going to be regressive. That's why increasing the progressivity of the income tax (which Obama is doing and the Right is moaning about) is a good idea.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Agreed, but so what?
I agree with your observation, but I am left with a "meh" reaction to it. The most your observation does is split his point into two. The author's point is still valid for single individuals with no qualifying dependents (i.e. $400 < $680) and mostly eats up any tax giveaway for the rest ($800 - $680 = $120).
This leaves us with Obama speaking out of both sides of his Administrative mouth and in a rather sneaky way. He has highly touted his income tax plan to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor by promising to send $400 or $800 to people who don't pay any taxes.
But then he wants this Cap and Trade thing to hide the fact that he lied when he said these people wouldn't be getting any new taxes. See how easy that was? We just won't call it a tax. The poor are getting (assuming it passes) a great big new tax that essentially guts all of the benefits he promised them. It may not be a penny for penny swap in an individual basis but in the big picture it is pretty close. For the rest of us not in the bottom quintile? Well there the author's point pretty much stands. The net effect of the tax code changes and the hidden Cap and Trade tax is that we all get higher taxes.
The Democrats are playing a classic shell game here with the American people ... and mostly with the poorest among us. They are exploiting the poor by promising to be Robin Hood on the one hand to get their votes, but then picking their pockets with the other hand leaving them no better off.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4exactly, meh
I know the Republicans are throwing it all against the wall just to see what sticks...but this isn't going to stick. There's nothing here.
To the point: small families tend to use less energy than larger families, so the refundable income tax credit (400 for singles, 800 for families) is a closer match to the carbon tax than you presented it. Any given household will be a little bit high or low...no big deal. Also, the new administration has been financing projects (such as home insulation) to reduce fuel consumption in low-income households.
Otherwise, this is not the only change to the tax code. For all I know, it is the only new refundable tax credit, but it isn't the only change.
As we just discussed, such people don't exist.
Obama never claimed that his environmental policy would be costless.
Nothing here is any sneaker than the basic techniques used by every salesman.
In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.
Does this make it OK?
So our new President is no better than a common car salesman? Gee, we know what kind of reputation THEY have, right? But be using this characterization you are basically agreeing with my point that he is waving money in their face with one hand to exploit them to get votes and then pickking their pockets with the other.
In other words, Obama is no better than a common shyster. That makes me feel much better.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Specter makes it official
After more than forty years of playing Republican, Arlen Specter has switched back to the Democrats. Can't say I'm shedding any tears over this. Apparently he's doing this partially because of the primary threat of Toomey, which is interesting because I wouldn't think that Dems would be eager to nominate a moderate former Republican, at time when they go for more orthodoxy. This doesn't really change anything except making it easier to get a Conservative elected in 2010. It pushes to Dems closer to sixty, but considering that votes are rarely 100% on party lines, and that Specter does not intend to change how he votes, this is just a matter of formality.
Also, I think the formality
Also, I think the formality of getting to sixty seats, is something that may hurt Dems more than Republican, as now they are seen as responsible for everything. They already basically had this, but now they no longer have the option of blaming slow progress on obstructionist Republicans.
Don't kid yourself, both he & Nelson want to show themselves
as independents so they'll continue to vote with Repubs.
I'm all for letting Specter caucus with the Democrats but I still want to see a progressive run in the primary in PA in 2010. I think Specter is beatable from the progressive side.
That's the thing, its not
That's the thing, its not like he moved away from any kind of primary opposition. There's bound to be liberals in PA who have been waiting in line for some time, and they're not just going to sit and wait out this elections. And liberals like you are going to see this as a time when the Democratic Party can take risks and go to the left.
I would think it makes it harder
to elect a conservative in 2010.
The Republican party has gone way too far to the right, squeezing out all the moderates.
Think about it.
Conservatives are actually making excuses that torture is okay.
They live in fear of the Club for Growth and the NRA.
Policies for birth control are considered immoral and never mind allowing a woman the right to decide her own destiny without government interference.
Specter will be a thorn in the democrats side, but then again so are Ben Nelson and Evan Bayh.
I'm only half stupid
Glad to see your reasonble side earlier. ;-)
I am glad to see him gone, why have a guy who cost us the stimulus in a party he does not represent.
Ya its a drag short term, but it's a big win for the party long term.
He may not win even as D...if there is a god. ;-)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
It's the move
of a desperate man who just can't imagine life without his political power.
He's switching parties just to improve his chances at the next election. Or at least that seems to be the sum of it to me.
Major defeat for Bush/Obama position on secrecy in the 9th
Circuit Court. www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/28/secrecy/index.html
Remember how the Bush43 Administration used to go to court and claim National Security and have entire cases thrown out of court? Well Obama jumped all over that and his Administration has been vigorously pushing the Bush meme even though he ran against it as a candidate.
Previous to GW Bush, administrations could only go to court and have selected documents restricted as a National Security claim. And even then the Judge had the right to see the document to make up his mind.
Well today a panel of the 9th Circuit Federal Court ruled against the Obama Justice Dept saying that an Executive branch does not trump the other branches of government and can't lay claim that is untouchable by the other branches, particularly in this case, the judiciary.
I railed against Bush using that legal tactic. I thought it too close to Monarchal powers. I was disgusted that Obama chose to go there too. I'm so glad this Court has put the foundation of government back into checks & balances land.
btw- don't get me wrong. I still support the Administration for the most part. I haven't gone over to the anti-Specter side.