Monday Open Thread

What's on the front page of your local newspaper today?

Here's mine: Cape Cod Times : Dammit! The Bruins lost! and Ooh look! Pretty flowers!

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Video Murder

NY Post has a video murder of a teen dad . He wanted to quit the Bloods. Apparently, they had a problem with that. (There is no video, but print captures).

 

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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Hrm

I was hoping the site the link was on would turn out to be like The Onion....

"SLAY-CAM HORROR"

If it bleeds, it leads.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Also SL -- newspaper shakeup...

Hey SL, don't you think the stories at the bottom left and right of your paper (below the fold) would make better stories? 

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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Better stories

Could be, but would they sell more papers? :)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Obama bringing a little Chicago to Washington

...and I'm not talking about pizza.

I'm talking about good old fashion strong arm politics.

Tom Lauria is an attorney for  group of investors that Obama did his best to through under the bus by demonizing them by suggesting they were being overly greedy, looking for government handouts, and stating he "didn't stand with them".

Well, just check out what he has to say in this radio interview .

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Isn't it nice to know we have devulged our national

security secrets regarding interogation, especially now that the Taliban has reciprocated the favor .

Can't claim the Taliban suffers from a lack of transparentcy.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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What are you complaining about?

If we simply take the arguments of the left to heart, doesn't this mean that we can now start beheading those guys in Gitmo?  After all, they did it to us so that must mean it's ok for us to do it to them, right?  At least we are going to think so, right? *

-------------------------------------------------

* I am removing my tongue from my cheek now.

 

Meta: This post is not a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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"The left?"

No, you'll just do mock beheadings under the supervision of experts in that field.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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"Mock" beheadings are deemed "too scary"

for the taliban by the left! LOL!

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Well, as long as they are only "mock beheadings" ...

... with limits clearly defined to prevent them from causing any severe physical or mental pain or suffering ... I guess I'm OK with that.  Under those circumstances it would be hard to call them torture, although some would likely try.

 

Meta: This post is meant to be a light-hearted joke which makes a serious point.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Au contraire

Mock beheadings would be undeniably torture, by almost any current legal definition. Mock beheading = mock execution.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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You seem to have ignored this part of my statement ...

... with limits clearly defined to prevent them from causing any severe physical or mental pain or suffering  ...

Now, if you don't believe that it is possible to hold a mock beheading within those constraints that's fine.  This just means that the set of non-torture mock beheading techniques is the null set which doesn't violate my stated position in the slightest (i.e. my support was conditional on the mock beheadings having satisfied the stated constraints).

But let us consider an potential example that is a play on my "I'm not touching you" torture technique I devised some time ago.  A potential terrorist is seated comfortably in an interrogation room sipping his favorite drink while cool air blows into the room from an air conditioner while receiving a shoulder massage from the resident Gitmo masseuse.

In walks a man dressed as an executioner holding what is quite obviously a small child's play sword.  The detainee is clearly told and asked to knowledge that the "executioner" is going to swing the sword slowly at the detainees neck and that care will be taken that this toy sword will never come into contact with the detainee in any way.  The "executioner" then walks to the detainee, slowly swings the sword towards the detainee's neck and stops a good 6 inches from the detainee's throat.

Are you saying that you consider this scenario to constitute torture?

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Mock execution

I'm pretty sure that by definition, as far as torture laws are concerned, "mock execution" requires that the victim does not know that it is fake, so no, your scenario does not apply. If this reduction-to-the-absurd is what you meant in your initial comment regarding the preventing of severe mental pain or suffering, then I take back my objection. But given your previous statements on the topic, I think you have a much higher threshold that you would consider "not severe."

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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But of course.

If this reduction-to-the-absurd is what you meant in your initial comment regarding the preventing of severe mental pain or suffering, then I take back my objection. But given your previous statements on the topic, I think you have a much higher threshold that you would consider "not severe."

The entire point boils down to on the one end of the "mock execution" spectrum we have things that clearly ARE torture and almost everyone would agree, and on the other we have innocuous things like what I have described above where almost everyone would agree that they clearly are NOT torture.  This means that there is a line in between the two extremes which is currently ill-defined that separates torture from NOT torture.

Bush and the Republicans argue that we owe it to the men and women working to protect us to clearly define where that line lies so that they will clearly know when and if they are asked to cross it.  For some reason the Democrats are doing everything they can to keep the line as blurry as possible while giving away all of our secrets in this regards to our enemies.

I'm pretty sure that by definition, as far as torture laws are concerned, "mock execution" requires that the victim does not know that it is fake, so no, your scenario does not apply.

Well, aside from the moving of the goalposts here, if you are taking the position that the definition of "mock execution" necessarily makes it lie outside of my hypothetical criteria then I can still stand by my original statement since there would be no examples which fit my definition yetw ould still be considered torture.  You would, in effect, be arguing a tautology.

I fail to see how the latter is making us safer.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Straddling the Fence? Only from a view from afar.

I wonder if Bush, as GM of the Rangers, tried to find out which team was the the hardest working and most deserving of a big contract, and after a poll of Texas Rangers players, Bush found that many of the Texas Rangers players were most deserving of a raise.
Or if Bush ever asked a 14 year sadist, a humane way to skin a cat alive.

If you ask a certain group of people a question who are far off base or biased, they could be likely to say that the 1st base line, at the fence, is right by the 3rd base line.

To a lot people, torture is more like horse shoes and hand grenades. Trying to straddle the fence is of little consequence.

One wouldn't ask whats the likely lethal radius of a frag grenade and then have trained expert in the field aim it 50 cm outside that radius. And as a safety precaution, have medical experts on stand bye... and if the person dies, act like the premeditated act was not a murder...

To a lot of people, if someone is trying to straddle the fence with torture, odds are, they're torturing.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I don't doubt this at all.

To a lot of people, if someone is trying to straddle the fence with torture, odds are, they're torturing.

And clearly that is the problem we have with people claiming we tortured people when we didn't.

What is the standard by which we prosecute people, the definitions written into the laws or "what a lot of people happen to think"?  When we prosecute people should the lines drawn in the law be clear and visible and unambiguous, or should the be helter skelter, blurry, and ill-defined as being what "a lot of people happen to think"?

Personally, I argue for the former because the latter is completely open to the personal whims and abuses of the politicians in power.  If you don't think that we should try to actually define where the line is between torture and not torture, then you are arguing that a prosecution is in order in my hypothetical scenario simply because some people still believe that even THAT scenario constitutes torture.

What is the counter argument against drawing a clearly defined line?  What is the downside to clearly delineating what IS acceptable and what IS NOT?

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I wonder if these guys checked in with their attorneys?

Before they stoned this poor dude to death for having sex!

Lets just see, pouring water over a mass murder's head in an attempt to get intelligence to save lives, and the stoning of a guy to death for getting it on with some girl.

Yep - We're the good guys alright.

What a joke this whole torture debate is!

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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What does....

.... a stoning in Iran have to do with treatment of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan?

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Torture.

Duh, didn't you eat your Wheaties today?

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Yeah I must be dumb...

... because I'm trying to see a connection there, but I just don't see one.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Hmmm..? Here, I'll help if I can...

I just reconfirmed;

That even when the possibility of many thousands of lives are at stake, the cautious, prudent path we take in our country, to check with the legal branch of our government for opinions, and notify our legislators of what we are doing, and then, and only then, to ultimately use interrogation techniques that, even in there most enhanced stages, do not even leave so much as a bruise on the individual being interrogated, is a refreshing reminder that we are the good guys.

Because, as with the Taliban beheading just the other day, and this stoning incident today, it seems amongst Muslim countries and culture - torture is real, and it is applied to people, even civilians, for things perhaps some of you reading this may have engaged in tonight.

Think about it.

*Oh, and those "real torture" loving kind of people may have nukes in a matter of DAYS!

But boy if we capture one in between beheading gigs, one who has information about the Taliban and their plans, lets sure not pour water over their head, or simulate "real" torture in order to gather what intelligence we may that might stop that from happening, oh no, we're to big for that.

Sleep well. ;-)

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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still what does that have to do with stoning

 You went off on some kind of bizarre tangent that is totally unrelated to stoning in Iran.

  Hitler drank milk, Obama drinks milk, therefore all Iranians throw stones at cows to gather intelligence.

 The US style fake torture is delicious because Iranians throw stones? 

  

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I honestly wouldn't expect you to understand.

Getting you through A+B=C is still a work in progress.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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I think your comment....

See.... here I was all confused, because we aren't at war with Iran last I checked... and even if we were, what Iran does to people doesn't really have any bearing on what we do to people.... does it?  What the Taliban does to people really doesn't determine what we do to people.... does it?  Sure, we can claim the moral high ground over Iran and the Taliban -- that's not the issue.  The issue is whether the manner in which we have treated detainees in our custody is consistent with our laws and values.... isn't it?

But then I read this:

Because, as with the Taliban beheading just the other day, and this stoning incident today, it seems amongst Muslim countries and culture - torture is real, and it is applied to people, even civilians, for things perhaps some of you reading this may have engaged in tonight.

There we go -- so an Iranian stoning and a Taliban beheading are relevant to US treatment of non-Iranian, non-Taliban detainees (who may or may not have ever been involved in a stoning or beheading themselves) because, "it seems amongst Muslim countries and culture - torture is real..."

So we're not talking about Al Qaeda and the Taliban... you know, the people that attacked us.  We're not talking about the detainees themselves, and to what degree they're guilty of terrorism.  According to you, we're talking about the entirety of 'Muslim countries and culture', who -- again according to you, torture people.  I had no idea we were at war with all the 'Muslim countries and cultures'.  But I guess maybe we should be, because -- according to you, they all torture people.  So I guess we should start rounding up all the people from 'Muslim countries and cultures' and start waterboarding them (but not beheading them or stoning them to death -- because that would be barbaric) -- otherwise they'll get the bomb, and blow us all up.

Right?

Maybe, if you think about this some more, you'll realize that whether we torture or do not torture has nothing to do with 'them' -- it only has to do with us, and who we want to be.

Finally, would I be out of place here saying that I fear 'Muslim countries and culture' in general a whole lot less than I fear your 'logic'?

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Shakes head at comical hyperbole and yearns for 2012.

Keep shoot'in for that perfect liberal universe.

You'd have us believe that it is simply a matter of we who must continuously check ourselves, and we do, but what you conveniently leave out of the equation is that to succeed, to get the job done, to win in the intelligence business, and protect American lives, we must also speak to them in their own language, or in terms that they can understand and will respond to.

So for instance, if it was just a guy like you puppethead, that we needed info from, I would just stare you down, you'd piss all over yourself and we'd get whatever info you knew, if it were a conservative we'd have to go farther down that road. However, when you're dealing with tough, battle hardened combatants or criminal mastermind types, who come from a religion and culture where you get stoned for getting laid, or beheaded for being a soldier or journalist on the other team, and thousands of American lives may lay in the balance, well, water boarding then just fails to make me nervous that we're losing our moral compass.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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If torture works so well

why have none of the torturees given up the location of Osama bin Laden. That is if like you say it, the torture, is ever so effective. 

 Maybe we didn't torture them enough to get their leaders location.

Too bad Bush stopped 'the program'. We probably could have won the war by now if we had just tortured more people more often.

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What makes you think they even know the location?

Given that they have been locked up for years?

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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What makes

you think they don't. 

 

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Sure ML, all Muslims know where Bin Laden is.

lol! You are the only one it turns out making these crazy statements.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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It wasn't a statement it was a question

 Why do you mischaracterize what I said?

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Yes, a question supporting the connotation

ML: Why don't terrorists give up Bin Laden if torture works so well...(more sarcastic BS)

GR: What makes you think they even know where he is?

ML: What makes you think they don't?

Sorry ML, but at this point you're on the bus, you have adopted the position.

True, it is likely just a unintended result of your typically  "unconscious" style of posting, but you've adopted it nonetheless.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Because they haven't revealed it.

Even after having been subjected to our enhanced interrogation techniques.  :)

 

Meta: This post is meant to be a light-hearted joke which makes a serious point.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Man.... you really don't.....

.... get what I'm saying at all, do you?

Do you want for the US to have a policy that allows torture for the kind of exigencies you describe, or do you not?  This is separate question from whether the US has actually engaged in torture, or whether waterboarding is or is not torture.  Let's leave those questions completely aside, and let's just talk about actual torture.  If you want that -- great, lobby for that.  Encourage your representatives to embrace it.  Do what you can to make that happen, if you think it's necessary.  But quit trying to muddy things up with false comparisons, and ridiculous hypotheticals -- if you think the threat we face as a nation justifies the use of torture then say that.  That, at least, is an honest, straightforward opinion.

Strangely enough, you seem to be the one pissing yourself, Centinel.  You are the one who thinks terrorists pose an existential threat to the United States.  You're the one who keeps spooling out scenarios that reflect horrible danger that we need to be afraid of.  You're the one who who is inventing hypothetical scenarios to justify a policy of abuse for prisoners that is completely out of proportion to the size and scope of the threat we face.  You're the one who keeps pointing to the immorality of our enemy to justify your own support of immorality -- not me.

I'm the one who is saying that we've faced greater threats than this and held to our laws and values, and when we've slipped up -- we've admitted it, and tried to make it right.  I'm the one who is saying we must take responsibility for our actions now.  I'm the one who isn't so afraid of terrorists that I'd comprimise US law, treaty obligations, basic morality, and basic human decency by turning torturer out of fear.  I'm the one who is saying that torture is evil, and should never be used by a civilized society -- regardless of the hypothetical consequences.  I'm the one with the consistent, unwavering position.  So spare me your hollow, tough guy conservative posturing -- I've seen plenty enough of that to last a lifetime from the previous administration.

Courage isn't breaking a man on the rack because you think he might know something.  Courage is deciding not to break that man on the rack even though you think he might know something.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Oh, oh, ok, thanks "puppethead"

You are the one who thinks terrorists pose an existential threat to the United States.  You're the one who keeps spooling out scenarios that reflect horrible danger that we need to be afraid of.

You're right PH, terrorists pose no existential threat, and the Taliban will act responsibly with Pakistans nukes I'm sure.

Sorry for the over reaction.

You might want to call HRC and calm her down too;

"I think that we cannot underscore the seriousness of the existential threat posed to the state of Pakistan by continuing advances, now within hours of Islamabad, that are being made by a loosely confederated group of terrorists and others who are seeking the overthrow of the Pakistani state, a nuclear-armed state," Clinton said in an appearance before the House Foreign Affairs Committee Wednesday.

"I don't hear that kind of outrage and concern coming from enough people that would reverberate back within the highest echelons of the civilian and military leadership of Pakistan," she added.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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You didn't....

.... answer the question.  Should we torture prisoners, or not?  If we catch group of Taleban soldiers, should we torture them until they tell us everything they know?  If waterboarding doesn't work, should we use any means necessary to extract any information they might have? 

Hillary, by the way, is saying that the Taliban are an existential threat to Pakistan.  If they managed to get their hands on one of Pakistan's six nuclear arsenals then they'd be a dangerous threat to the United States.  But an existential threat?  I don't think so. 

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Ok

Should we torture prisoners, or not?  

We should interrogate them, and in extreme situtions like KSM water board them. Keep in mind I do not consider WB'ing torture.

If we catch group of Taliban soldiers, should we torture them until they tell us everything they know?

We should interrogate them - not torture them, and let the professsionals determine who they are and of what value they my or may not be.

If waterboarding doesn't work, should we use any means necessary to extract any information they might have?

No.

WB'ing works.

I would, like the intelligence folks, only WB someone in the highest level national security situations.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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See, this is good....

... we're almost on the same side here.

Interrogations?  I'm on board.  Sorting them into high-value vs. low-value with respect to the information they might have?  I'm on board.  Waterboarding?  No -- unless an actual court reviews the procedure and rules that it does not constitute torture.  If the court deems it not to be torture then fine -- let the CIA use it when they think it's critical.  I would not be happy with that decision, I would hope that it would be challenged, but I would accept it.

So we're down to one last thing.  Flip that around -- if the court deemed the approved waterboarding procedure to be unlawful torture, would you accept that decision?

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Awe Puppethead, I am a lover of the Constitution

That's why I often talk in terms of what I believe deep down inside is right or wrong, and spend a lot of time defending those constitutional positions I espouse to people who don't quite understand. They often are talking as legal things stand currently, as I find myself arguing for things as they should be constitutionally.

So I am used to living with things not going my way, lol. (Especially lately)

So sure, I will accept it, I won't buy it, but I would respect the rule of law. (While arguing why it is wrong any time the opportunity presents itself.)

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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That's excellent...

..... you realize that we just worked all the way down pretty closely to completely agreeing with each other in substance, don't you?  Who'd have thunk it?

We could probably solve just about all the world's problems if we keep this up.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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;-) I'm pretty close to going civilly disobedient though

I am frustrated with a lot of things in this country right now.

Doesn't the spending trip you out?

I mean when you really think about the scope of wht we have gotten ourselves into.

Trillions, TRILLIONS of dollars, how will our grand kids ever pay this? I herd even tody, a 21 year old will pay 100+ thousand dollars, just to cover the interest on the debt!

A million seconds is 12 days.
A billion seconds is 31 years.
A trillion seconds is 31,688 years.

A million minutes ago was – 1 year, 329 days, 10 hours and 40 minutes ago.
A billion minutes ago was just after the time of Christ.

A million hours ago was in 1885.
A billion hours ago man had not yet walked on earth.

A million dollars ago was five (5) seconds ago at the U.S. Treasury.
A billion dollars ago was late yesterday afternoon at the U.S. Treasury.

A trillion dollars is so large a number that only politicians
can use the term in conversation... probably because they
seldom think about what they are really saying. I've read that
mathematicians do not even use the term trillion!
Here is some perspective on TRILLION:

 Trillion = 1,000,000,000,000.
The country has not existed for a trillion seconds.
Western civilization has not been around a trillion seconds.
One trillion seconds ago – 31,688 years – Neanderthals stalked the plains of Europe.

Million: 1,000,000
Billion: 1,000,000,000
Trillion: 1,000,000,000,000

I am just a little tripped out here. :-0

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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.

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Another liberal trick of the trade

Liberals love to play this guilt card routine and make it appear as if somehow this is not about right and wrong (and this is laughable on its face, but since ML insists) but instead is about conservatives, or average sane Americans evidently hating Muslims, lol.

The people who stone or behead innocent people ML, yes, we could consider them "bad".

And the people who planned and carried out terror attacks against us, and we subsequently interrogated, yes, them too, we could consider them the bad guys.

And gee you're on a roll here ML, cause yes, they were all, indeed, Muslim. Congrats!

But honestly, does anyone really believe ML's droll assertion that this is, once again, an American problem, because we just hate all Muslims and Muslim culture, of course not, this is a liberal fabrication, and is patently false.

*Update: ML apparently realized her ignorance was about to be shown for what it is, because she erased her post as I wrote my reply.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Typical conservative

 justifying your actions by blaming liberals. Pathetic.

 I erased my post because it was too sarcastic and biting.

 It is just so disgusting to me how easily you characterize a whole race of people with the broadest brush imaginable, as if you have some special right to do so. You don't. And you are wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

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Have a last one on me ML

Then maybe hit the sack, huh?.

I am only talking about the terrorists and those religious zealots who commit terror (stonings, beheadings, and the like) in the name of religion, you are the only one painting tonight ML.

Is it illegal to drink while painting in your state?

...Geeze?

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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How close can one throw a grenade at a person and not be murder?

What is the counter argument against drawing a clearly defined line? What is the downside to clearly delineating what IS acceptable and what IS NOT?

With regards to water boarding.
How close can I aim and throw a frag grenade at someone and claim that I wasn't trying to actually kill them? Right at them? 1ft away? 8ft away? What if I have a trained expert throwing the grenade? What if I can find council that will say that trying to throw a frag grenade at a spot 15 ft from someone and I only throw 1 grenade a day means I'm not trying to actually kill them? I want to know how close I can throw a frag grenade at someone and successfully defend that I'm not trying to kill that person, I need to know how close is too close. Sticking people in a box with insects, slamming their backs against padded walls in while chained down, is either torture or a waste of time and only a relative discomfort, if it's not a waste of time in getting people to make up/say anything, then it's torture.
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Sleep deprivation for less than a few days is probably not torture, but not sleeping for long enough can make it more likely for serious health problems. Setting up the exact number of hours sleep can be deprived IS completely arbitrary.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Heh.

How close can I aim and throw a frag grenade at someone and claim that I wasn't trying to actually kill them?

Snarky answer: 1/2 inch. (Answer assumes that there is 1/2 inch of armored steel plating between the grenade and the subject and that 1/2 inch of steel plating is sufficient to contain the fragments.)  :)

More serious answer:  That would be any distance which exceeds the distance associated with a 95% confidence interval for fragments no longer being lethal, depending the the type of grenade used. *

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* We can of course quibble and debate about where that line should be set (e.g. 90%, 99%, etc), but the law certainly could define such a line, correct?  And this would be preferable to having no clear line defined, correct?

For example if person A throws a grenade in a direction that would intersect with person B who is standing some 5 miles away, by your argument we should actually try person A for attempted murder, right?  Not in my view we shouldn't.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment (except for the snark).

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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are political opinions protected by hate crime legislation?

Here's one opponent's take on the recent hate crime legislation:

"Had [Hilton] done what he said he would do and stormed that stage and pulled that tiara off [Prejean's] head and [inflicted] bodily harm when he did it, there would not have been one ounce of protection under this piece of legislation for that young girl," Forbes stated.
 
"But after he did it, if she had in response made a statement back about the very sexual orientation that had led him to his hatred and dislike for her, and if she had responded by slapping him or any physical injury, she would have had the potential of a ten-year federal piece of legislation coming against her."
 
The Virginia Republican also argued that if beauty contestant's father had rushed onto the stage at the Miss USA pageant and responded to Hilton's hatred in a physical way, he would have been open to prosecution under the hate crimes bill as well.

As I understand the story, Prejean had expressed an opinion on a social/political issue (gay marriage), which Hilton strongly disagreed with. So does the newest Federal hate crimes legislation have anything to say about the imagined scenerio?

I do not see any protection regarding political or social opinion (I don't think it is relevant if that opinion is based on religious belief or not). Should such opinions be protected? Violent acts motivated by political/social opinion seem to have the same problems as violence based on race/religion/ethnicity etc. -- they can intimidate people who express unpopular opinions and they can incite further violence against such people, and ultimately lead to civil war.

So the above author is right that Prejean would not have any protection under the hate crimes law, but he is wrong to claim that Prejean and her family would have lost the right to self-defense. The legislation states that a person committs a crime if he:

willfully causes bodily injury to any person...because of the actual or perceived religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability of any person (emphasis mine).

If Hilton were to attack Prejean, then we would clearly know why Prejean or her family were motivated to attack him: it would not be "because of the...sexual orientation " of Hilton.

 

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Physical violence is a crime AR.

The law could have ended with the first sentence;

Any person who willfully causes bodily injury.

No need to confuse crime with stupidity.

Stupidity is not  crime.

 

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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so it's just redundant; that's so terrible!

nt

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Whatever that means?

nt

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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and federalize all violent crime?

If the law stopped after the first sentence, then almost all violent crime would have been under Federal jurisdiction. That seems a big gratuitous.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Way to take my statement

out of context in such a disingenuous way.

In cse you could not understand what I meant, simply apply the law equally to all as the constitution requires, no more, no less.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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okay, now I'm just ribbing you

I'm just ribbing you for making a vague statement.

Anyway, your complaints about the law being unfair would be addressed by just making all violent crime into a federal offense with the given punishments.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Unconstitutional, AGAIN.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

10th Amendment .

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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In a way

the Fourteenth Amendment effectively guts the Tenth, which I agree is kind of unfair to the states.

Any two states with different state laws will affect their populations differently.  From there it's not so hard to claim one of the state's inhabitants is being unequally protected and that therefore any federal law or SCOTUS opinion should trump it.

It would have been better to spell out respective state and federal domains from the beginning.  The founders sucked :)

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You were just getting to me

and then this shameful attempt to throw monkey wrenches into the constitution and the dis of the brilliant men who framed it. (Even though the founders did not write the 14th)

Your point is not worth commenting on really, but I will say the amendments do nothing of the sort.

The 14th guarantees equal protections, so the states must abide, as must the federal government, they both must abide by the the Constitution, and in doing so apply the standard prescribed in the 14th when making law.

However, in an all together different realm of legal specificity, the 10th affords the states the greatest liberty to decide their own destiny when it binds the federal government to it's constrained role by proclaiming;

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

 Damn, those founders were intellectually resplendent.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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So by that definition, when 38 states allow gays to marry then

the other 12 don't have to recognize it till gays get Federal protection of marriage rights.  But when that happens the other 12 states & thier right to legislate against gay marriage rights gets kind of crapped on....I mean what about their god given right to crush the souls of fellow citzens?

I bet the south sucedes again.

Now under that scenerio, which one is conservative and which one is liberal?

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I believe that your interpretation is flawed.

Any two states with different state laws will affect their populations differently.  From there it's not so hard to claim one of the state's inhabitants is being unequally protected and that therefore any federal law or SCOTUS opinion should trump it.

The Fourteenth Amendment in no way guts the Tenth.  The two are completely orthogonal.  The 10th Apportions the governmental powers between the Federal, the State and the People where each is afforded their own respective jurisdictions.  The 14th Amendment merely states that all laws made within an given jurisdiction must provide for equal protection to all persons within those jurisdictions.  It most clearly does NOT require different jurisdictions to be consistent in the laws that they establish within their respective jurisdictions as you seem to be asserting.

For example, concealed carry laws.  Each State is free to make whatever decisions they wish with respect to the issue of concealed carry.  Some allow it with tight restrictions, others allow it with less tight restrictions, others prohibit it all together.  The 14th Amendment does not require these States to have a uniform system of concealed carry laws, what the 14th Amendment DOES require is that within any one of those states the same standard is applied to everyone within that State, and the ONLY reason it is allowed to require even THAT is because the States have chosen to ratify the amendment.  It was a voluntary action on their part and is thus a self-imposed restriction.

 

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Indeed +4

nt

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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You have got to be kidding me!

I am speechless!

Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives will seek passage in coming weeks of $94.2 billion in emergency money...

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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why do we have an emergency spending bill?

The Iraq/Afghanistan funding should have been in the main budget--as it should have been for the past several years. The Pakistan and flu spending seem to be reasonable "emergency" measures.

I don't understand what is so shocking about this, since it is how Bush has run the budget process since he decided to invade Iraq.

If you thought that Obama would have changed this-- well, he hasn't had a chance. The President makes his budget request in the beginning of the year and it doesn't go into effect until October . I'm assuming that this emergency spending goes into effect before October.

I guess Congress could have added the big items to the regular budget last year, but it isn't surprizing that they didn't. My interpretation is that Congress is just acting according to Bush's plan for this fiscal year.

Does anyone know if Obama put the Iraq/Afghanistan wars into the regular budget this year?

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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War budgets

Yes, Obama did include the war spending in the regular budget this year.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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148 billion increase in military spending

According to Wikipedia articles on the Federal budget, there was a $148 billion increase in defense spending between 2009 and 2010. I assume that this is largely the result of putting Afghanistan and Iraq into the budget.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_States_federal_budget#Total_spe...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_United_States_federal_budget#Total_spe...

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Personally ...

I am speechless for a few of reasons, I guess:

  1. The Democrats complained about Bush funding the wars using emergency spending bills just like this.

  2. This is already on top of the unfathomable amounts Obama and the Democrat congress have already spent this year after they had complained about how much Bush was spending.

  3. The Democrat Congress and Obama appear to think that the federal coffers are infinite in size and that the US population will continue to be able to bear the weight of the debt they are piling up.

  4. The Democrats have been trying to call the Republicans hypocrites on the fiscal responsibility front because of the way Bush was spending, but now we clearly see that Bush WAS being fiscally responsible when compared to this Democrat controlled Congress and Obama.

 

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any response to the above comments

Those points were largely addressed above by me and SL

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Nothing further to add.

To a large extent this post was merely a formality so that I could provide the Republican counterpoints to the points you and SL stated above (Centinel didn't spell these out).  I think between us we have both sides covered.  :)

 

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just going with the "liberal" media

Did you notice how Reuters pinned this spending on the Democrats, even though it is stuff that should have been included in last year's (Bush's) budget?

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Yes

 but thanks for point it out again.

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How quickly people forget ...

Please see this post .  It shows the relative sizes of Bush's vs. Obama's budgets including war funding.

Did you notice how Reuters pinned this spending on the Democrats, even though it is stuff that should have been included in last year's (Bush's) budget?

Why shouldn't the Democrats get pinned with this, they are the one's spending the money are they not?  As for whether this should have been in the budget or not how was Bush supposed to know ahead of time how much Obama was going to spend on the wars, especially in Afganistan?

I actually approve of how Bush handled the war spending.  Use the budget to cover the normal operating expenses of the military and then only ask for more when the figures required to cover the war are actually known with some minimal amount of certainty.  For example, can you tell me what al Qaeda will be doing next year and, therefore, how much we will have to spend to respond?  I sincerely doubt it.  And I sincerely doubt that Obama knows either.

Pay as you go actually IS the fiscally responsible option here because you are not bloating the normal operating budget with lots of unknown quantities that are completely dependent on known unknowns like what your enemy is going to do to try and defeat you ... and therefore how much you will need to spend to react.

 

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Hate crimes roundup

Okay, I've gotten obsessed with this issue and found some interesting resources.

First, it seems that the ADL has been the main proponent of hate crime legislation since 1981 .

Second, here's a good discussion of the issues involved. Pay attention to the comments from Ken the lawyer. He points out that the big SCOTUS decision on hate crimes actually involved a racially motivated attack against a white boy.

Third, Gay Patriot (a Republican, I think) criticizes this hate crimes legislation as meaningless fluff -- asking why Congress focuses on largely symbolic legislation when the Federal government still discriminates against gays on an industrial scale.

Fourth: If you are wondering how easy it is to convict someone of a hate crime, some Pennsylvania kids were recently acquitted of committing a hate crime even as they were found guilty of beating the crap out of a Mexican guy and hurling slurs at him. Also note Ken's comment (point 3 in comment 9) in the discussion noted above.

Fifth: Here's a well written example of the conservative case against hate crimes legislation . It describes the situation well, but seems to rest primarily on a slippery slope argument (conflating hate crimes with hate speech), without providing any argument of how we will slip down this slope.

 

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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I am not interested enough to take this on ...

But if you are so interested as to do some significant reading on the topic and are presenting both sides of the issue (as appears to be the case), I think that this would be an excellent topic to turn into a diary rather then letting it get lost in an open thread.

It seems you already have a good starting point on the background material right here in this thread.

Just a suggestion.

 

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thanks for the vote of confidence, but

Unfortunately, my tendonitis is acting up again and my work deadlines are getting tight...so I'm going to have to take another breather from the site.

PS. Hey Centinal, it's been fun!

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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You made some interesting points, thanks!

nt

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Halt all criminal prosecutions

In light of the expressed concerns that hate crime legislation will destroy liberty in America, and the fact that many other existing crime statutes (e.g. terrorism, slander, indentity theft, mail/wire fraud) share the same basic problem of being "thought based", and that there is always a risk that prosecutors will abuse whatever authority that they are given (by prosecuting non-crimes , or refusing to prosecute actual crimes), I propose that we abolish all criminal prosecutions in the USA.

All disputes should be handled in civil court, with the injured party taking responsibility for initiating prosecution, and and hardships only imposed on the guilty party at the request of the injured party. The injured party may request that the guilty party be confined in prison if that is necessary to secure his peace of mind.

PS. I am only half joking here. This proposal comes from the libertarian playbook.

Edit: While slander does have the same problem of requiring information about a person's thoughts, I think that it is only a civil offense, not a crime.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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slander and "actual malice"

Apparently, the "thought crime" aspect of slander is limited to cases involving public figures, where the plaintiff must prove "actual malice ".

Ironically, the requirement of evil motive actuall protects the defendent because it is rather hard to prove. I think that we can expect "hate crime" prosecutions to be rather rare simply because it is so difficult to demonstrate the "hate" part of the crime. Hate crime legislation does not change the fact that criminal prosecutions still require the jury be convinced of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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One of the big 24

One of the big 24 Infotainment Channels, in a teaser about Miss California, said more less that:
Miss California was runner up because she cited her religion as a reason for not wanting same-sex marriage.

She may have implicitly stated that religion was a reason, but that's definitely not what she said. She said that marriage should be between a man and a women because that's how she was raised.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Let me also add ...

that there is no correct answer to that question.  She would have been villified no matter what her response.  So the real problem child here is the judge that asked the question in the first place.  We should be investigating their motives and biases, not those of Miss California.

 

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So it's the actual information that's the issue? The knowlege

of what she thought was wrong to ask?

Why does one ask a question if you aren't seeking it's answer?

I'll admit to knowing nothing of Perez Hilton (or however it's spelled) but his bitchy schtick afterwards & I don't think it was dignified.  The question however was a valid question.  It is a current event and they do ask contestants about current events in these contests.

And Miss California should be recalled.  She had to know that was one place you play the crowd.  But in the long run, it's turned out to be a Joe the Plumber event for her.  She's now booked to speak at events with a conservative tour.  I believe it's another success story of wingnut wlefare.

I particularly liked the story about how the plastic surgeon who gave her her breast augmentation after the Miss CA contest & before this one happens to be gay and this is how she says thank you...Honestly both she & Perez lack class in this case.  Perez cause he wants his 15 minutes & Miss Recall by speaking of her bigotry & intolerance and calling that a virtue.

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The question however was a valid question.

Valid?  Maybe.  Fair to the contestent?  Not at all.  Like I said, that question was guaranteed to annoy someone (ie. some of the other judges) no matter what she answered.

As for playing to the crowd, are you suggesting that she should have lied?  What kind of a role model would that represent.  Besides, like I said there is no way to answer that question that won't piss someone off.  So which crowd should she have played to, in your opinion?  The pros or the cons?

 

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Happy Cinco de Mayo one and all....

Today we are all Mexicans....well maybe the French aren't, but they've probably forgiven Mexico for beating them by now.

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Unleashing The Inner Madman

Earlier, in writing about California’s fiscal meltdown, I noted that Barack Obama has threatened the state with a suspension of its stimulus funds, on which Sacramento depended for its budgetary calculations.  The story behind that threat is worth pursuing.  In attempting to bridge a huge shortfall, the state lowered compensation to for home health care workers, saving $74 million. Obama wants those cuts rescinded, and it’s not hard to see why :

Reporting from Sacramento — The Obama administration is threatening to rescind billions of dollars in federal stimulus money if Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and state lawmakers do not restore wage cuts to unionized home healthcare workers approved in February as part of the budget.

Schwarzenegger’s office was advised this week by federal health officials that the wage reduction, which will save California $74 million, violates provisions of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. Failure to revoke the scheduled wage cut before it takes effect July 1 could cost California $6.8 billion in stimulus money, according to state officials. …

The wages at issue involve workers who care for some 440,000 low-income disabled and elderly Californians. The workers, who collectively contribute millions of dollars in dues each month to the influential Service Employees International Union and the United Domestic Workers, will see the state’s contribution to their wages cut from a maximum of $12.10 per hour to a maximum of $10.10.

In other words, Obama has unleashed his inner “madman” in the exact same cause he did with Chrysler and GM bondholders.  He’s doing it to support the unions.  The SEIU appealed directly to Obama, as the LA Times reports, when the budget cuts hit.  Rather than rely on California to determine its own compensation plan, Obama simply threatened them with economic ruin if they didn’t fall into line.  I’m surprised he didn’t threaten to sic the White House press corps on Arnold Schwarzenegger.

The irony here is that Sacramento is doing the exact same thing to its own citizens.  With most of them poised to shoot down higher taxes and more spending in a series of referendums next week, Schwarzenegger has published his intent to close firehouses and police stations, and to empty prisons and let convicts free on the streets.  That “madman theory” gets around, doesn’t it?

This should make clear Obama’s prioritie as President.  He couldn’t care less about California defaulting or automakers going under, but a $2/hr pay cut for 400,000 union workers is the center of his universe.  I’d suggest changing “Hail to the Chief” to “Look for the Union Label,” but Obama would probably approve it.

H/T Hot Air

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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