Tuesday Open Thread
I'm still typing with one hand but we seem to need a new OT so here you go
Cyberbullying. More thought police or justifable protection in an electronic age ? Does the power button or the parent no longer have a role? Must we be protected from pixels? Since one of my hobbies involves exploring what pixel people do when allowed full freedom, I find this question to be more than it appears.
The news seems to be saying the recession is over. Can we stop spending so much now?
What is on your mind?
Submitted by Purpleface on Tue, 2009-05-12 07:28
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Maybe, just maybe, Obama is a Muslim terrorist.
Cause up to this point, he sure isn't acting like someone would in his position.
The list is long
, but here's just the latest
.
(I was just kidding about the Terrorist part, he's just a poor president.)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Are you trying
to copy GoRights MO of throwing rididulous bombshells out there to show how mean we were to Bush?
OMG. They're worried about the British leaking classified information so they're going to be careful? I can see why that makes Obama a Muslm terrorist, obviously. Seriously, I do hope they have a good excuse based on a "sources and methods" argument and are not just trying to avoid embarassement or sweep violations under the rug.
And of course the introductory paragraph was so full of qualifiers and weasel words ("appears to have been redacted") that makes it an exceptionnally shoddy piece of journalism even if it turns out to be completely accurate, which would be a total accident.
Broaden your horizons, man. Try reading something other than the Washington friggin' Times or the WSG editorial page.
WS...J "J" is for Journal.
;-)
Well, let's see...
He's closing GITMO,
he's considering releasing the terrorists in a neighborhood near you,
he's dis'ing Israel,
he's schmoozing Iran
and bowing to the Saudi king.
He's reducing our military budget,
It's all hugs and kisses with the worlds socialist leaders,
But afraid to work closely with our oldest most trusted allies,
he's releasing our interrogation methods,
he's exposing our operatives,
Iran continues it's nuke program and deployed missiles to defend it,
he is claiming abroad we are no longer a Christian nation,
he is not addressing our border,
He's spending us into bankruptcy,
the Taliban is on the verge of getting control of a nuclear country,
shall I go on?
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Yuh huh
That's a pretty dumb statement on your part.
Proof, please. I wish this were true.
Like Valerie Plame? What exactly are you talking about here?
Where in the Constitution does it say that we are?
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
How so?
How so? If he closes Gitmo and other countries won't take them, what's his alternative? Gitmo II? Is that the change you voted for?
And it's not like he is even planning to give them trials like he promised. Apparently now that he is in office those Military tribunals where they can introduce evidence that would not be allowed in US courts are looking like the way to go here. Is that the change you voted for?
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Domestic prisons
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Military or Civilian?
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Yes
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Cute.
Military = Gitmo II - Same treatment but different scenery. Not really any different.
Civilian = Not gonna happen without civilian trials which aren't gonna happen. *
-------------------------------------------------
* At least not for those that you would consider terrorists.
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Funny, the President didn't mention most recent terror plot?
Read the rest
.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Many sources point to
Many sources point to terrorist recruiters going after <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=mZ6&q=terrorist+recruit+%2B%22ignorant+muslims%22+to+carry+out+plots&btnG=Search">Muslims that know little of their religion. </a>
Maybe they could just call it the Deity of Abraham Identity Movement...
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
More fear mongering
from the right.
OMG We are all gonna die, because 'the dark' people are violent extremists. Some people were even arrested for saying crazy things!
WE must torture to preserve our freedoms. It's the only way we can maintain the moral highground.
I'm only half stupid
n/t
n/t
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Hey I'm no expert, but if one is true student of Islam
...they would not be plotting terror. So I give you that.
However, evidently there is a mutant strain of it coursing throughout the world and is prevalent in the prison system both here and in the UK that is producing pretty fanatical adherents who are willing to commit such heinous acts as are described above. And to add to the mix real terrorists who are committed to such radical action is foolish.
To make little of it, dismiss it, and make silly analogies about it is ignorant, because like it or not it is real, and it will kill people.
Good thing we got on these guys long ago when we cared about terror, and didn't label it a "foreign contingency"!
And ML - Either make a decent relevant point or shut your yap - your BS is stale, makes you look like an idiot, and is totally unproductive.
I don't mean to be aggressive, but come on.
Thank you in advance.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
I don't make light of violent extremists
including Christians who advocate owning machines guns and overthrowing the Federal Govt.
Or Mormons from Utah who spend millions sticking their noses in other people's business on a hate campaign against gays
When you have an RNC ad subtly suggesting killing the Speaker of the House, when you have right wing talk radio hosts promoting in unison a hatred of their own government, making up lies about how much bullets are going to cost, and people running around screaming liberals are nazi socialists.... well excuse me, if I see that as an equal if not greater threat to this country, than some criminals locked in a prison cell.
To me the fear mongering lies and propaganda coming out of the right is much more dangerous than people in prison talking about Islam.
When someone like Colin Powel, or any Republican is derided and denigrated for being reasonable, or moderate for agreeing with our President on anything ever, that is what is scary.
I'm only half stupid
Oh, but you do!
The President gave a speech.
It was on National Security.
That very morning a Islamic terrorist plot was foiled right here on US soil.
The president did not so much as even mention it?
Curious to many, but to you it illicit's cow dung such as;
Why do you deliberately not address anything, ever, but instead constantly go off on hyperbolic rants?
And then this stunning topper;
They were not sitting around on their prayer rugs talking bout the love to be found in the Koran. They were previously indoctrinated into radical Islamic theology in prison, then released into the streets of America to hatch their dirty terror deeds.
On second thought, maybe you, Obama, and Janet Napalitano are correct. Maybe you should be more concerned about the right wing extremists like me, who after having done our duty for the country we love so, and protected your freedom by killing bad guys in Iraq-so they don't kill you here, we were fortunate enough to come home, are labeled as a national security threat.
What liberal bullshit that was!
No reason to worry about those ex-convict Islamic terrorists who were hatching a real time plot on US soil.
(According to you that is just being racist, another example of pointing out the trouble the colored people cause.)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Sorry this is
just ridiculous.
They were caught. End of story.
If you want to make a point of their religion being the problem, then I will be more than happy to point out, other religions, that advocate for violence also, including some extremist Christians who run around telling everyone that the US government is against you and should be overthrown
It's not exclusive to Islam. There are plenty of ex-convict Christians that are advocating extremism.
So spare me your pretentious outrage against extremism by some while you overlook extremism by others.
It's no big secret that 'criminals' learn how to be better criminals in prison.
I'm only half stupid
I'm sorry too, sorry that you are obnoxiously obtuse.
n/t necessary
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
You know what, calling something dumb, is stupid.
That's a pretty dumb statement on your part.
Really, why is that
?
Proof, please. I wish this were true.
Sure, here
.
Like Valerie Plame? What exactly are you talking about here?
No, not like VP, more like this
.
Where in the Constitution does it say that we are?
Weird question? Why would "God" be in the Constitution?
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
1. First, I don't put much
1. First, I don't put much stock into an article whose headline ends with "say sources." But even if everything in this article is true, then I would strongly suspect that the people being released cannot accurately be described as "terrorists." If there was any actual evidence that they were, I doubt they'd be released. FWIW, I thought you were pulling the same kind of BS as this video
released by Republican Senators, so I apologize for the "dumb" comment. The video is pretty dumb.
Besides, Washington D.C. isn't a neighborhood near me, so your statement is still inaccurate! :)
2. Sorry, specific programs being cut is not the same as cutting our military budget. The military budget is higher under Obama than it was under Bush, sadly. Like I said, I wish your statement were true, but it is not.
3. Are private contracters "operatives?" I dunno. It doesn't sound like they were particularly secretive about their involvement in the first place. From the article you link to:
4. Isn't it the Constitution that defines our nation?
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Replies to SL
#1 -
You can read it here
.
#2 - Ok, but this still is in the wheel house of what I was saying, the Obama Administration is squeezing them
, that much is evident in Gates' memo
.
#3 - If you don't think that article exposed these contractors, I disagree. They participated and were anonymous citizens until ABC made them targets for fanatical types. True Obama did not do this directly, it follows on the heels of, and zeal for, retribution surrounding his memo release precedent. I believe had not he done that, nobody would know who these two gentlemen are and they and their families safety would not be in question.
#4 - No, The Constitution defines our federal government.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
+4 on #4!
I was wondering how you were going to address that one. :)
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4And as for #2
...after more thought, I should have said;
Obama is seriously weakening our national defense, but not saving any money to show for it.
Thanks for helping me clarify my point ;-)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
A bit more
Regarding those private contractors that you say Obama has exposed, again from the article you link to (emphasis mine):
So clearly people from the Bush Admin are talking about this, too. I don't see any nefarious exposure of operatives here.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
I dismissively refer to it
as the Wall Street Gonad.
Hi PF!
Hope your hand is feeling better today.
Meta: This post is just a friendly greeting.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Learning to mouse with the left hand :-)
Thank you
Don't click if stiches
gross you out.
Oh PurpleFace!
Poor thing!
What happened exactly?
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Broken glass shelf
I was walking down an aisle in a store. Hand brushed against the edge of a recently-broken glass shelf. It sliced me to the bone.
No tendons or major vessels severed. Should leave a lovely scar, though.
Ouch!!
Sorry that happened, Purpleface. Hope you make a full, speedy recovery.
Dodged another bullet
on the death penalty. Seems new DNA evidence all but exonerates this guy
.
I'm surprised this doesn't become more of a campaign issue for abolishonists. Maybe because the death penalty still surprisingly polls well in the US.
I suppose when it comes to politicians, the de-motivational slogan applies:
Rather than weakening support for the Death Penalty ...
as you seem to want, it is cases like this that will actually cement support for it in place. Why? Because this illustrates that we have even better methods of screening out the innocents that slip through than ever before.
This just illustrates that the system is continuing to improve and that technology is incrementally taking away the primary argument of the opponents to the Death Penalty.
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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Quip
Russian Roulette with 2 bullets and six shooter = not safe.
Russian Roulette with a bullet and eight shooter = better method for screening out the bullet and cements the support for the safety of Russian Roulette.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Except that the US legal system ...
is not Russian Roulette.
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4His point is that
the system's flaws and uncertainty remains, even if modern technology has lessened them. Are you OK with the Government killing an innocent person once in a while in order to preserve whatever imagined social benefit the death penalty brings? That's the real issue.
I say "imagined" because the standard lines about cost, deterrence and public safety have not been borne out by any rigourous comparative study. The death penalty assuages our collective thirst for vengeance, nothing more.
Thank you, Captain Obvious ...
Perhaps this is why I might have included the word I have now underlined in the following statement: *
I never said that the entire argument was resolved.
-----------------------------------------------
* Please see:
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Minority Report
What's the "primary argument of the opponents...?"
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
That the death penalty
kills innocent people, I believe.
You're welcome Commander Platitude
It's a good thing you pointed out that our legal system is not Russian Roulette. Very meaningful and incisive.
Public perception, which is what matters in the long run in terms of effects on elections and policy, depends very little on any measure of quantifiable risk of executing an innocent. It responds to media stories about how we almost killed the wrong guy. Otherwise why would former Gov. Ryan have commuted all of Illinois' death row after it came out how many were innocent, instead of being reassured the remainder were guilty?
Whatever incremental decrease in wrongful convictions may result from DNA testing, plenty of uncertainty remains. Over time, premeditated murderors are likely to simply become much more careful about leaving hairs and bodily fluids on the scene, decreasing the effectiveness of DNA screening as a tool, just as they wear gloves to avoid leaving prints. Ultimately, criminal justice will still rely on eyewitness accounts and assumptions about human behavior, which are still often flawed.
Your point, while not technically wrong, would be extremely weak even if it were relevant to where it leads the death penalty debate. As it is, it's the one small comfort that tireless death penalty opponent researchers get from getting someone released or commuted. By your reasoning, they should have increased their political capital by waiting until after the executions to go public with proof of innocence. We bleeding-heart liberals are always letting our consciences get in the way of a smashing rhetorical victory.
So ...
you honestly don't believe that things which demonstrably LOWER the probability of a wrongful conviction will cause people to be MORE accepting of Capital Punishment than they already are?
This is just logically flawed. If people have any reservations regarding Capital Punishment it only stands to reason that addressing those reservations will increase support. What logical basis do you have for your proposition that this is not the case?
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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4It's not a question of logic
per se. Since when does public perception respond to quantitative risk studies? Trust me, it doesn't. Otherwise I would make a lot more money.
Let me draw a parallel with 9/11: the hijackings obviously decreased the risk of another similar attack because the element of surprise is gone and Al-Qaeda isn't stupid enough to try the same thing twice. Still, we reinforced cockpit doors, banned boxcutters and hightened awareness to the point that God help a young middle-eastern man who mistakes the cockpit door for the washroom nowadays.
The public, completely understandably, acted in the exact opposite fashion that risk theory would have them dictate. The fact that 9/11 was successful all but ensures there will never be another one. But people do not respond to that kind of abstract reasoning. They can only fear what they are aware of.
Now you seem to be using flawed risk assessments.
Sorry, but your risk assessment is incorrect.
If we simply look at the expected number of a terrorist attacks in a given year, the 9/11 attacks undeniably increased that number, not decreased it. For any given time period that includes the 9/11 attacks, the expected number of terrorist attacks in a given year is the total number of attacks in that period divided by the number of years in that period. In all such cases the calculated rate of terrorist attacks will be greater if the 9/11 attacks happened vs. if they had not. This should be obvious. The 9/11 attacks increased the risk assessment, not decreased it as you suggest.
Given that there are an infinite number of ways to commit a terrorist act, the reduction of one mode of attack does not reduce the risk at all. The level of risk is a function of the terrorists level of intent, and their level of intent is independent of the mode of attack. Eliminating one mode of attack does not reduce the risk of another attack.
But the frequency of such attacks is obviously significant in any risk assessment and that will have increased as a result of the 9/11 attacks. This is undeniable.
This is in complete contrast to the DNA evidence reducing the number of innocent people who will be mistakenly executed. It is undeniable that this will be the case. In fact it has already done so, as your example illustrates. If it were somehow possible to know the true number of innocent people who have been wrongfully executed within a given period of time, the rate of such executions will undeniably have been reduced as a result of the use of the DNA evidence. This occurs because every individual who might have otherwise been executed but was subsequently exonerated by the DNA evidence reduces the number of wrongfully executed people by 1. So for any given period of time the rate of wrongful executions will have decreased given the use of that evidence vs. whether that evidence was not available. This too should be obvious.
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4I meant hijacking a plane
and using boxcutters to force your way into the cockpit. The likelyhood of that event has gone down. I'm not going to debate that further.
Terrorist attacks overall may have gone because of the demonstration of vulnerability from 9/11 and Al-Qaeda sympathizers feeling "inspired", but those effects don't apply to the death penalty situation.
I don't know why you're harping on DNA evidence reducing the likelyhood of executing an innocent; I've already conceded that. My counterpoints are:
I must have missed that ...
Fine so you agree that DNA evidence has reduced the likelyhood of executing and innocent.
But you now seem to be arguing that reducing the likelyhood of executing an innocent will NOT increase support for the death penalty. Is that what you are arguing or am I confused on this point as well?
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4No, I'm arguing that
discovering innocents on death row will reduce support for the death penalty, because much of the public is not aware of the system's flaws.
If we'd done a "confirmation DNA test" on all death-rowers and every one matched, that might increase support for the death penalty a little. Every disovery of an innocent reinforces doubts in the integrity of the proces and will certainly decrease it.
Not to jump in, but
There will of course be other aircraft hijacking events, so the things we did to increase aircraft security, I would submit, were done more in the vain of preventing those kinds of events from happening, which they most certainly will.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
I agree that we will still see more hijackings.
He is correct in that the risk is now lower, but not for the reasons he articulates. The risks are lower because of the increased security measures, something that he appears to be arguing was a public over-reaction with which I disagree.
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Some were good
such as reinforced cockpit doors. Some were meh, like boxcutter banning. No terrorists would have been ble to tke over an American airliner with boxcutters ever again.
Some were silly, like banning metal cutlery. Some were downright stupid, like shoe removal. God help us if the next Richard Reid tries to smuggle an explosive jockstrap.
It's mainly the increased public awareness, which in turn causes Al-Qaeda to look for other methods if any, which decreases the risk of another boxcutter hijacking.
No, it shows that
we have almost certainly been executing innocent people for a while now.
When you discover a flaw in a system, be it the death penalty, a government program or a nuclear reactor, the end result is not an increase in confidence in the system's reliability. Even if the discovery itself makes it more likely that that particular flaw will be detected in the future.
What about the cases where exculpatory DNA evidence is not available, but the evidence was just as shoddy? It's funny that conservatives want to give the government as few powers over the people as possible, except the power to deliberately kill its citizens.
True or False?
This case illustrates that the use of modern DNA evidence has made it LESS likely that we will execute an innocent person?
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4True.
Now, what % of innocent people being executed by the government (you know, that faceless bureaucracy whose merits the right is constantly disparaging) would you consider acceptable?
If I discover a serious flaw in the control rod configuration in a nuclear reactor (such as existed at Chernobyl), I don't go "yay we just made it safer because now we'll know to monitor the rods extra carefully!" I shut the thing down until we can all be sure it's reasonably safe to operate again.
So no, the discovery that we were about to execute innocent people does not reassure me that the remaining ones are more deserving to die. The fact you stated in isolation is doubtless true, but the logical progress to your conclusion is absurdly skewed.
As close to zero as possible ...
without eliminating the death penalty all together. Hence all the process and delays that are in place to offer the accused every opportunity for a review of existing and newly found evidence that may exonerate them. But in the end, serial murders and people committing particularly heinous acts should be subject to the death penalty.
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Thanks for answering.
Your position is at least defensible and addresses the question. And of course no system is perfect, especially one that relies so heavily on human judgement and recollection.
If I were actually convinced that the prospect of execution is an effective deterrant or that executing really bad people is the only way to ensure they don't escape and kill again, I would be willing to entertain the idea of executions as good social policy. But that's the problem: these hypotheses have failed all empirical tests. States with executions don't have lower murder rates (MI and IL were until recently used as comparative examples). The risk of a pathological killer who would otherwise have been executed escaping and killing again is not comparable to the third world countries with unstable power structures where the winner of a coup d'état releases his death squads. As for imagined cost savings, the huge burden on the legal system that the automatic appeals process engenders more than exceeds them.
We can work to bring down the worst cons of the death penalty, but the pros are still unsubstantial. While I agree that morally, there are a number of people who doubtlessly deserve to die, the state does not deserve the right to kill them.
Besides, I'm not sure I'd prefer an 8-by-10 with no privacy or dignity for the next fifty years to leathal injection, myself. Unless I were innocent and held out hope of vindication, of course.
My two cents regarding cyberbullying:
Reading this open thread, I was immediately reminded of a very tragic incident that occurred three years ago last fall, up in Vermont. A 13-year-old boy who'd been the victim of constant cyberbullying by classmates and couldn't take it anymore finally received a suggestion from one of his online tormentors that killing himself would be the only way out. Tragically and sadly enough, the besieged 13-year-old boy did precisely that, with his father's loaded, unlocked shotgun. Not long after that, the deceased boy's father went on a campaign to get some anti-cyberbullying legislation passed in the state of Vermont. How or whether or not that legislation was passed, I admittedly do not know.
Having said all of the above, I believe that this clearly preventable and needless tragedy occurred for at least two reasons:
A) Lack of parental supervision of young kids who surf the internet.
B) A loaded, unlocked shotgun within easy access.
I believe that, had both the cyberbullies and their now-deceased 13-year-old online classmate/victim had proper parental supervision while posting on the internet, and had the father of the deceased boy had the good, common sense to at least keep his gun unloaded and locked up where the now-deceased boy couldn't have gotten access to the firearm, and anti-cyberbullying legislation been passed way, way sooner, the 13-year-old boy who was victimized would be alive right now.
Cyberbullying
I think from what I've read that the Vermont law has not yet passed, either.
It's a double edged sword.
First, would a cyberbullying law have actually prevented the bullying? Just because something is illegal (or immoral, as is the underlying action of willfully causing great distress to another) will that stop someone from doing it? The law is a great thing, but it cannot prevent all evils in the world. So even if passed, we'd have to acknowledge that the law is at best a bandaid, not a shield.
Cyberbullying to me is a different animal than, er, "real world" bullying. On the school playground, a kid cannot easily escape his tormentor. But on the internet, the off button is a powerful and completely effective shield. Turn off the machine and poof, the bully is gone. One could argue that kids lack the emotional maturity to always choose the right action, but to me that merely reinforces the ancient concept of "minor" -- which has always implied that a parent is responsible for guarding the child throughout his minority.
And the risk of misapplication of this kind of law is not negligible. What is bullying? Could missliberties call BR's posts about her cyberbullying and file a lawsuit? What about other forms of derogatory speech currently common on teh tubes; could people with money to burn on lawyers use this type of law to stifle opposition and free speech?
Difficult issues with no easy answers, but those are just the top layer.
I used "real world" in quotes above because I think the line between online and not-on-line stuff is blurring and will continue to do so. Is cyberbullying any less real just because it arrives via a screen? Am I any less real as PF than as my "real world" handle? Should different laws or behavioral expectations apply to me here? Why not?
In the case of cyberbullying, right now I think it would be better to have no law than a bad one. And as written, I think the current legislation is too broad and ill defined, even if well-intentioned. But the underlying issues will have to be addressed at some point, and probably sooner than we think. I'd like to hope that we use the experiences of the internet (e.g., the discovery that like the old saw says "...but words can never hurt me") to craft laws that support liberty, instead of just treating the internet as equivalent to the "real world"
The law seems stupid to me
Why anyone would think this law is a good idea escapes me. Laws like this irk me to no end. What's next padded playgrounds for children so they don't scrape their knees on real dirt?
I am much more concerned about the bullying from giant internet monopolies and the 'customer education process' that is to enlighten us why price gouging by monopolies who control broadband, is good for consumers.
I'm only half stupid
I disagree, missliberties.
This:
"Why anyone would think this law is a good idea escapes me. Laws like this irk me to no end. What next, padded playgrounds for children so they don't scrape their knees on real dirt?"
is clearly indicative of the fact that you can't seem to accept differences in opinion, and just drips with sarcasm, derision, and bitterness, like pretty much ALL of your posts do.
Bullying on the playground isn't the same as cyberbullying. Kids need more parental supervision on the computer than they often get, babe.
Let's say this, Purpleface:
At least, in real-life bullying, be it on the playground, or psychological bullying, a kid can eventually learn how to fight back, if necessary, even though it may be hard.
When bullying occurs online, no real self-defense is possible, and, unlike in REAL life, once a bad reputation online is established, there's no erasing it, since whatever is posted online STAYS there--and doesn't get deleted, no matter what. Plus, when a person's dealing with total strangers that they've never seen face to face, much less talked to in person, there's no telling what such persons will do with the existing information that they have.
At least, with a bad reputation in real life, there's at least a remote chance of altering it.
Btw--I stand by my position that kids need better parental supervision on the internet than they often receive, which is why there are so many problems on the internet, and by my opinion that having a loaded, unlocked shotgun around the house was also a contributing factor to the boy's death.
There's a madman in our midst...besides Obama, Holder, Emanuel,
Pelosi, and Reid.
Fortunately I don't believe there will be many takers on this round, unless they "force" them as they did the big banks.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Why even do this?
How about lowering taxes on businesses, make America a great place to do business, quit playing the "America the way Obama likes it camouflaged as stimulus game", the crazy spending, borrowing, and printing of money, spare us all the serious consequences no one wants to talk about in the form of the insane inflation and tax burdens that are coming, and will probably be worse for the average American than this supposed "crisis" ever was, then really fix what ails us, and move on.
Oh my, what have we done in the name of change that makes us feel good?
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
That's what I'm talking about
Read more about it here.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
A legitimate beef
Here we have a unitary executive taking charge and doing things outside the law. Had this been George, the left would be calling for a lynching. George's executive orders that ignored or modified the law were often seen as rank abuse of power and priviledge.
Now that the wielder, however, is a Democrat, the left is silent or actively supporting the actions.
Hipocrisy?
Can you explain
how the bankruptcy courts are ruled by Obama, or as you claim the unitary executive?
That's a bit of a stretch. Obama didn't force Chrysler into bankruptcy. The secured debtors, or the premiere bond holders did, by refusing to negotiate. How is that Obama's fault?
If Obama was going to pursue an executive authority power push he would have forced the bond holders to negotiate so that Chrysler could have avoided bankruptcy.
I'm only half stupid
Quoting from the WSJ article.....
The Obama administration is using political power to "convince" some creditors to take less than the law specifies, and allowing other creditors to get more than the law provides.
Existing law stipulates what should be happening. The Obama administration is not allowing that to happen.
I don't give much credence
to the author of this article frankly.
"Convincing" people doesn't rise to the level of abuse of executive power.
A rush to get this done holds merit in my opinion and would be in the purview of existing law, if you consider the people who are suffering from income loss, or lack of productivity, to be equal to a truck full of rotting oranges.
I'm only half stupid
I don't give much credence
To the Democrats who complained about Bush frankly.
"Detaining" people doesn't rise to the level of abuse of executive power in a time of war.
A rush to get the terrorists detained holds merit in my opinion and would be in the purview of existing law, if you consider the people who are suffering from the loss of family members, or a lack of security, to be equal to a truck full of rotting oranges.
Meta: This post is a parody of the previous poster which makes an important point.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Which existing law, exactly?
The bondholders' agreements are private contracts. This is an important point.
Bankruptcy Law
There are laws that govern these types of situations.
Private contracts exist everywhere. Practically every contract written is a private one. Our laws support private contracts, allow their enforcement, and provide the legal framework that ensures that when you sign a document, you will get what that document promises that you will get.
I don't get your point, obviously, because there has to be more to it than that ;-)
No, it's not legitimate.
Read through the links, and look up the original text that the weasally opinion piece authors failed to provide. Obama is not ignoring any statute, and the constitutional argument is an absurd stretch because of the scope and justification of his intervention into a private contract.
And Purpleface, I know pundits use this line of argument everywhere:
but it's awfully lazy and fallacious. Bad enough that you assume we "the left" would want to even figuratively lynch someone, bad enough that accusations of hypocrisy do not address the underlying question itself, but here you do not even have any hypocrisy to point to! Bush had never and would never force bondholders to accept less to stave off bankruptcy. That he ignored or violated other statutes and that many of on the left were mad about that is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.
These bondholders
were encouraged to negotiate by the likes of the top execs at JPMorgan. Even many in the Wall Street community don't hold these kind of vulture speculators which much regard.
>>>>rant on
I am so sick and tired of the left being vilified for sticking up for workers, as if that is akin to treason, while people make excuses for billionaire hedge funders who don't give a rats ass how many lower class folks lose their jobs. Meanwhile who at the WSG cares if a workers contract is broken?
>>>>rant off
I'm only half stupid
Constitutional argument?
We may be talking past each other...where do you see a constitutional issue here? I am speaking of bankruptcy law, not of the Constitution
EDIT: nevermind, I see it. I saw that part of the article as, er, authorial fluff.
OK then
can you point me to the reference to bankruptcy law and how Obama is violating it? Because I missed that.
Bondholders come first
When a business goes into bankrupcty, the classes of stakeholders receive payment in a certain order. Bondholders get theirs first, then preferred stock holders, then regular stock holders. Employees are entitled to nothing.
The rest of your comment is addressed in mine below
Is this technically
a bankruptcy proceeding? I thought that's what Obama was trying to avoid.
Anyhoo, I see this a simple private contract abrogation in order to serve a greater good. No specific statute says he can't do that.
That was the point of the article
That the Administration is trying to handle this as a "special" bankruptcy. They are trying to restructure the company using some formulae all of their own. Instead of using the ones we have legislated and used successfully. In other words, instead of following law and precedent and proven methods, the Administration want to do something of their own design, something that follows their own preferences.
No specific statute says he can, either, other than the idea that the President (presumably any president, including such stellar examples as George) has the power to abrogate contracts for the greater good. Does that sentence not bother you? Does that not exactly describe what a unitary executive is?
Rotten oranges clause
allows for an expedited process. So it is not outside the bounds of the law, if the case is made that this court proceeding would cause undue harm to 'the product', if the process is not expedited in a timely fashion.
A unitary executive acts alone, without consultation of any of the other branches. The courts are involved here, so I don't see how you get to the President is abusing his authority.
I'm only half stupid
Ok, let me see if this works
Would you feel just the same and express the exact same sentiments if the president doing all this happened to be George Bush?
It's not a realistic question
You would have to give me an instance, because I don't see any comparison whatsoever.
Obama can't push a button and make the courts do his bidding, which is what you seem to be suggesting.
I'm only half stupid
Here, take some time to figure out you position,
(as if we don't already know it) start with this
?
Have you listened to this
?
You could check this
out.
Maybe read this too
.
At the heart of it is the Obama Administration was negotiating all these things ML, and they wanted the unsecured UAW to get 50 cents on the dollar, while they tried to tell a group of secured creditors to take 30 cents on the dollar! There is a real question how far they went to coerce these investors as you have hopefully discovered above.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
My position
is that these secured bond holders, or hedge funders are using unethical standards and shady investment strategies. These are the unethical investment standards that brought down the investment banks, like Bear Sterns, Lehman and AIG.
The coercion in my view is coming from the speculators, who refused to negotiate.
May I remind you that Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JPMorgan was strongly urging these speculators to negotiate. Are you now going to condemn Jamie Dimon, a businessman for trying to coerce these speculators to negotiate a settlement? Because that is exactly what happened.
To be consistent you would have to blame the CEO of JPMorgan and Obama in the same breath, since at the time they both held the same position that the secured bond holders should negotiate.
The bond holders defied Jamie Dimon who strongly urged them to negotiate a deal.
I'm only half stupid
lol, ok ML, ok?
If that's what you "really" got out of it, that's what you got, lol.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Jamie Dimon is not an elected official.
Obama is. Where in the constitution has Obama been granted the power to interfere in private negotiations between stakeholders? Because when he does he is clearly operating against the legal framework that is in place to resolve such issues as who gets what.
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4He has not interfered
with the private negotiations between stake holders. No he has not!!
Good Lord GR. If he had then he would have used his 'magic executive unitary authority' to keep Chrysler OUT OF BANKRUPTCY. He did not want Chrysler to go into bankruptcy. If he was going to abuse his power he would have stopped the banruptcy cold.
Dimon and Obama held the same position. So I guess Obama is evil (democrats are always evil) and Dimon is a saint (businessmen are always saints but only if they are republicans.)
How you manage to twist everything upside down and backwards is mind boggling.
I'm only half stupid
It's you that has it twisted.
Obama had the CEO of GM FIRED. Obama is picking and choosing who goes and who stays on its board.
Anyway.
Obama was handling the negotiations regarding Chrysler. He (his negotiators) were the one's playing the lets keep our union supporters happy and screw the capitalists game by giving 50% on the dollar to the unsecured UAW, and attempting to give the 1st position secured creditors only 30%, and that's why they were pissed.
That's why everyone's pissed, how do YOU not get that?
You are in Obama denial.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
and.....
when the CEO has come before the loan officer of last resort, the Federal Government, to keep its business afloat, you are saying that the loan officer has no rights to restructure the company, for the sake of the best interest of the shareholders? No law was broken.
Do you get that you don't get to run a crappy business model for decades and then ask for a bailout without consequences.
You all keep acting like Obama just injected himself in the picture out of the blue, which is not true.
I'm only half stupid
It's extremely realistic
The question is if George Bush were swapped for Obama, would you change your position about what the president is doing with regards to Chrysler. If everything were exactly the same except for the physical body occupying the Oval Office, would you still be OK with it all?
If your answer is No, then you are tacitly agreeing with the premise of the WSJ article -- that you have shifted your paradigm from the rule of Law to the rule of Man. That all of this is okay because Obama is the one doing it.
That's dangerous territory. Not because Obama is evil. But because it changes the underlying rules from law, passed and tested through the admittedly cumbersome legislative and legal processes we have in place, to the whim and wisdom (or lack thereof) of a man.
The right did the same thing during the Bush years; stuff that was borderline legal was okay, was justified, because George was doing it, and he was going to protect us, etc. And the left pushed back.
Where is the left now? Unless one can answer Yes to my question, you should be pushing back. IMHO anyway.
No it is not realistic
Specifically what rules of law is Obama changing? I don't see that he is. I think the WSJ is deliberately exaggerating. This is where we have a disagreement.
You and the WSJ are conflating Obama's desire for the court to have a speedy bankruptcy trail, vs misrepresenting his position to be coercing the courts to follow his orders.
I'm only half stupid
I get the idea.
The answer is a resounding Yes. Had Bush somehow burned his political capital on bucking precedent and facing down creditors like this, I would have applauded him.
But Bush never would have done that, both because his "philosophy" would have prevented it and because, well, he's a jerk. Nearly everything he did was bad for the country. With eight years of evidence, I believe the causality between his personnality and the failure of his policies is pretty strong. Lack of curiosity, stubborness, laziness and yes, general stupidity were all driving forces in his poor decision-making and lack of application. In my book, the sum total of his unequivocally positive actions during his presidency amount to striking the right tone in his rubble speech and the Do Not Call list. Every other worthwile endeavor he had, he either screwed up, corrupted in some way or retreated from in the face of solid opposition.
I don't try to excuse bad, illegal, unethical or unconstitutional behavior simply because my party is in the White House. I'm mad at Obama for dragging his feat on Gitmo and fudging the Iraq timeline; he's not being that consistent with his campaign promises and is giving himself too much wiggle room. Whatever role he played in the AIG bonus mess was at least poorly handled. The House should never have brought the unconstitutional 90% surtax bill to the floor; it was petty politics at its worst. I want him to set himself benchmarks for reining in the stimulus spending and make sure everyone understands its temporary measure. I want him to show more courage in making the case for taxing the wealthy at a higher rate, which may be unpopular but is the key to long-term fiscal health. I want him to spend more political capital before the midterm campaigns gum everthing up.
Yes, I'm sure to self-styled centrists we on the left seem terribly personal, nasty, partisan and hypocritical. Our defense is that we are actually making accurate, consistant assessments of the Bush presidency. He really was that bad, and no fallacious attempts at equivocation between him and Obama, or exposure of "hypocrisy", will sway us.
Thing is, not having Bush's severe character flaws, Obama is much less likely from the start to screw things up the way Bush did. Sure, he's human and he's a politician, so he'll make some mistakes and occasionally put party interests above the general good. But he's smart, empathetic, hardworking and committed to the ideal of the government serving the greater good. I don't give him the benefit of the doubt on things like intel on torture methods and I will demand the same transparency that I wanted when Bush was in charge. On the other hand, while I'm doing that, I would like Bush supporters to shut the hell up. They're the real hypocrits.
Hey corph
Do you see any instance that Obama is breaking the law as is the presumption of the WSJ article.
I don't.
I'm only half stupid
I would hope
that if there were a statute that prohibits the government from abrogating bondholder's contracts, the author would have found and cited it. Or maybe not, the whole text smacks of incredibly lazy research and analysis (corporate mouthpiece hackery?). The author seemed to think it was sufficient to name clauses without explaining their relevance to make his case, and even got one embarassingly wrong.
Obama's not violating any statutes, I'm pretty sure. The 5th amendment thing Centinel found seems to have a bit more merit, so it could be (arguably) unconstitutional.
Clever use of the term "government".
You seem to have it backwards. The power is with the people. The government has no rights, only the people do. The government, and especially the federal government, is explicitly restricted to exercising only those powers granted to it by the constitution.
Where does the Constitution or any law passed by Congress authorize the executive branch to "abrogate bondholder contracts" in private negotiations ... especially in a manner inconsistent with the uniform bankruptcy laws as they stand on the books today? I thought that this was the purview of the judicial branch of the government, not the executive branch. Those are two separate and independent groups, right?
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Glad you got my point
If the idea of a President handling certain things that the law says should be handled in court via an established procedure doesn't phase you (and I can see the rationale for it in the Chrysler case, so you don't need to defend your opinion) then that's an opinion you're entitled to hold and one that I'm not likely to be able to influence.
But in this particular case, I want the left to be pushing back just as hard as they did for the perceived abuses of the Bush Administration, and insisting that the rule of law be followed. And it irks me that they aren't. And since the left usually responds strongly to the idea of hypocrisy, I used that particular, er, spark, in my comment ;-)
Yeah. That's what the right thought about George, too.
Please demonstrate
where the rule of law has been violated. You keep making this inflammotry charge, without specifics.
When a company comes to the government for a loan, in the amount of billions, you are suggesting that loan originator, ie the fed govt has no legal rights to restructure the company?
-----
Further there are many on 'the left' that are pushing back against much of what Obama is doing. The 'libruls' that post here, are not representative of 'the far left' per se, perhaps with the exception of independent minded, who despises Obama, and would likely gladly agree with you that Obama is just like Bush.
Your suggestion that there is no push back from 'the left' is not accurate. The rabid left is almost as unhappy with Obama as the rabid right.
I'm only half stupid
I have already said
That the Obama administration is not violating the law. The "Rule of Law" is a concept that's different from an actual violation. I don't know if I can explain it any better than I've already tried.
See, that's the whole problem. The law as it is written currently doesn't say "oh, yeah, and if you don't want to file bankruptcy, you can ask Uncle Sam for the money."
I would have been much happier if the government had just stayed out of it and let existing laws handle the whole thing.
Okay....
Then the problem would have started during Bush's tenure when Hank Paulson came begging for money for the banks.
Congress voted and the money was granted. So the rule of law is actually what you are disagreeing with. Your first assimption that Obama violated the law, or using the theory of the unitary executive, is a false premise, and is in fact incorrect.
I don't mind putting square pegs in square holes, but in this instance blaming Obama for what happened under Bush is trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
I'm only half stupid
Not bad ;-)
We were talking about restructuring / liquidating / selling off Chrysler, though, not TARP in general.
True
But as corph has clearly shown no laws have been violated in the restructuring / liquidation / selling off of Chrysler.
And I believe it was you who changed the subject to the bailouts generally.
I'm only half stupid
Rest assured
that if I do conclude Obama is ignoring the rule of law or he is found to be doing something unconstitutional, I will fight back just as hard.
And I'm not failing to see it because I'm a Democrat, or because I believe in his motives. It's because I don't see the evidence.
My biggest fear re: Obama
Is that he is listening to the wrong people re: the investment banking sector. That he is getting bad advice from Geitner who has been insulated in the financial towers for so long, that the only way he sees out of this financial mess, is re-creating the old system replete with all of it's systemic risks. That is my biggest worry.
We shall see. They keep promising some regulations, but I am still waiting. Hopefully it is because they are being thoughtful and careful.
I'm only half stupid
Well...just from a
we borrowed, spent, and printed too much money perspective.
You are most certainly correct
!
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Not really
The investment banks are responsible for this mess and not only were their domestic crises implications due to this irresponsible behavior, there were also foreign policy implications.
In my very strong view the stimulus was the right way to go, but it should have been bigger.
I'm only half stupid
Uh huh?
And um, just where would you get the money?
Are you not horrified about the repercussions we will pay for this.
Obama has spent more than all the previous Presidents before him, all of them, from Washington to Bush!
You do realize the government is not a business, it does not sell products, or generate profits, it's sole source of revenue is you and I, and the businesses we own.
We are, or our kids and grand kids will pay dearly for your flippant economic demeanor.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
No I am not horrified.
and I am too tired right now to go into it right now.
I have much more faith and confidence in our system of government and it's people than you seem to.
I'm only half stupid
Uh huh, I see.
nt
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
+4
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4So literal ;-)
Hyperbole enlivens the language; of course I don't mean they'd really lynch him.
But you must agree that during the Bush Administration, there was plenty of hyperbole being thrown around about King George. Our search functionality is inadequate, but searching dKos for "executive order" turns up lots of examples. The subjects were different, but the essence is the same: there are laws, and the executive branch is not following them.
Now, I grant you, in this case, there is no overt lawbreaking by the Obama administration; they are merely using political pressure to get creditors to cede their legal rights.
Yeah yeah.
How about my other point about imagined hypocrisy?
I'm not unaware of hyperbolic rhetoric aimed at Bush. None of it, as I recall, was about him being mean to creditors.
Ok, just relax Corph, I've apologized, and responded below
Lets all play nice, make our points, and work through this. ;-)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Fine by me.
How about next open thread I link to a Krugman piece and you dissect it? :)
Unless I missed something major
Article V
describes the amendment process. The contracts clause the article refers to is Article 1, Section 10
. I know the WSJ is supposed to be a reputable paper, but Centinel, please, stop blindingly quoting them like this. The purpose of blogs is not to amplify bad reporting or shoddily written opinion pieces.
He're the text:
To go from that to "Obama can't make Chrysler bondholders accept less" requires a lot of extrapolative thinking, not least that we dealing with federal laws and private contracts. Here's some of the context both you and the WSJ failed to provide:
This is inartfully expressed: what it means is if the Government is substantially altering a contractual relationship, then it must have a significant purpose and be reasonable, otherwise it violates Art. I Section 10. In the Chrysler case, both the predicate and the consequent apply. Obama is acting consistently with SCOTUS precedent. It's now up to you to argue the SCOTUS was wrong.
The Article I, section 8
bankruptcy stuff seems completely irrelevant:
as Obama's not trying to impose a new uniform bankruptcy law. More shoddy unexplained conjecture as to how this applies.
The WSG
strikes again.
In my partisan opinion this is a bit of a propaganda piece that makes apologies for speculators involved in the same kind of tricks that brought the banks to their knees in the first place. They are speculating with highly leveraged debt again.
The speculators are using the WSG to plead their case. Imagine if one of these secured bond holders was George Soros! Do you think that the WSG would be singing a different tune?
I'm only half stupid
Well, I just dinged Purpleface
for applying the same reasoning you did in your last paragraph. It shouldn't matter that the WSJ is in bed with Republicans (as demonstrated by their multple references to "favored unions"). It also shouldn't really matter whether the bondholders were irresponsible speculators as long as they behaved legally.
What matters is that the WSJ misrepresented the issue, obfuscated critical facts and precedent, and failed to show the logical reasoning for Obama doing anything unconstitutional.
Give me a partisan rag that does its research and reasons honestly over the condescending error-prone crap of the WSJ any day.
I agree
The guy wrote this piece to lobby for the bond holders and abused the facts. Yet we get to hear in the next breath that Obama = unitary executive, because the WSJ is such a respected publication and 'convincing' people is abusing authority.
And thanks for the fact check!
I'm only half stupid
Np.
It's good for the ego to realize that one can find serious flaws is a presumed legal scholar's opinion. Who doesn't even seem to know what "Unitary Executive" means.
Giggling.... sorry. ppffsst.
Is your pinky finger poised in the corner of your mouth too?
Good luck on your evil plans for world domination...lol.
You are over the top dude.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
I notice every media outlet you disagree with is a rag?
The WSJ, a rag, please, look at how you respond, the hate filled rhetoric, absurd name calling, and just unfortunately typical disingenuous liberal depreciation.
Though I totally disagree with your frenzied trash talking, I think this is a conversation I will choose NOT to have.
You and ML have a nice dinner.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
???
I'm having a hard time seeing the hate-filled rhetoric in corph's postings. This actually seems to be one of the most civil discussions we've had here in a while. What are you talking about?
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Heh.
I think I just gave up any claim to civility below. Oh well. Centinel probably takes issue with my giving advice to him on how to post. But dammit, someone needed to.
I'll pick my battles more carefully from now on. No matter how fun trashing the WSJ is.
I was talking bout the combined with ML, I guess my bad
but fter reading down, hering the WSJ is rag, and the typical BS from ML, and a long day at work...;-)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Hypocrisy watch
How many times has the NYT been referred to as that liberal 'rag'.
Is this a case of sensitivity or having a thin skin? It's hard not to notice that you bully anything you decide is liberal all day long, but if the tables are turned you lash out irrationally.
I'm only half stupid
I don't bully anything...
In your case, I have made myself abundantly clear.
Only you could compre the NYT's and it's incredulous record, with the WSJ. lol.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Whiner
and please read the context: I said I'd prefer a rag to the WSJ as long as it did its research. The content, not the style, of the WSJ editorial page is worthy of being called a rag. Since you never respond to my criticisms of its content I can only assume you aren't able to.
"Typical disingenuous liberal depreciation"? I gave your link much more consideration than you (or it) deserved, given your lazy toss-offs and tendency to confuse posting a link or stupid cartoon with making a legitimate point.
I don't usually like devolving into meta, but you leave me no choice. Since you called me a typical liberal, allow me to call you a typical dittohead conservative who needs to be fed his talking points (or in this case talking WSJ editorials). Your vocabulary is cringeworthy. You're civil to me only when I post innocuous comments; you're disgustingly dismissive of ML despite the fact you make much more inflammatory arguments than she does.
I will now confine myself to posters who exhibit original thoughts; apologies for bothering you.
I am sorry, I read your and ML's posts and should have
taken them separately.
My bad.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Well Corph
Part of a blog is stimulating debate, and using an article to do that is perfectly acceptable, and stimulating discourse is certainly something we need right now here at SC, quite frankly.
Have you read this
?
I disagree across the board with your dismissal, and I will address it. (Having a crunch day.)
See, don't be afraid, posting a sensible, clearly written WSJ article is a good thing for SC, it sure works.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
No I haven't
my work filter just gave me a dangerous content warning for your link. Care to post an exerpt and do some analysis?
Or, for that matter, defend the WSJ on the merits? I don't blame you if you can't, of course.
Read it...
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Well ....
"We have a free enterprise system that has worked spectacularly for us for two hundred plus years. When it fails it fixes itself."
Is not true.
Do you think that the S&L Savings and Loan crises fixed itself?
Our country in fact has a spectacular history of banks collapsing and running out of money.
Ask yourself would have happened last Sept IF the US did not have a government backed program known as FDIC insurance?
In 1929 people literally lost their life savings. The backlash against unethical business practices was palpable. People were lividly angry at the unethical bankers and businesses that evaporated their money. Back then it wasn't hedge funds, it was pool funds.
Imagine the anti-wall street, anti-business push back that would be filling the streets if folks today had lost all of the money they had in the bank, because it was not federally insured.
I'm only half stupid
I agree, the FDIC is good program
the rest of your point is moot.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Do not mistake a lack of interest ...
in wasting time arguing about the credibility of the WSJ for an inability to successfully defend same. It is just a black hole of wasted time that is to be avoided.
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4I don't think so.
For you, maybe. But Centinel links to them all the time, and asks me to respond to them. If you or he doesn't care whether they're credible, why link to the WSJ at all? We don't link to, say, 9/11 conspiracy sites because they're not worth discussing and we agree on that.
If Centinel isn't interested in my criticism, why does he ask me to respond?
Incidentally, for right-leaning economic analysis I find the Cato institute and the Economist offer much better stuff than the WSJ editorial pages.
I post CATO stuff just as often, Reason, etc. ;-)
I do find find the WSJ credible.
I appreciate your view, look, ultimately, I'm looking for truth.
Over the years of my life, that has led me to conclude what I have, not unlike yourself I'm sure.
I see immense value in a strict adherence to the constitution, and great peril for not doing so.
I am likewise inclined to think a restrained, constitutional federal government is best for the nation, and a large wasteful government a thing to be feared. Just as the founders did as well.
So what is happening currently is incredibly disturbing to a lot of people, the scary kind of disturbing. Like we've doubled down on spending, debt and printing money, and we're all in, and we just don't have the hand kind of feeling.
If people would realize the economy will correct itself, with some pain yes, but pain where it is deserved, unmanipulated, and clean. They would realize too that destroying our economy in the name of helping it to recover is what we are actually doing.
To consider the coming decades of paying trillions (most people don't get at all what a trillion really means!) of dollars to foreign countries, with nothing in return, is troubling.
To consider a 21 year old today will pay 100K+ in interest only on the existing debt is frightening.
We don't need this, we should have put in whatever controls needed to prevent this from happening again, and let the cards fall pretty much where they will.
Then managed our financial affairs appropriately, and the country would go on and prosper.
Now, that I am confident we will endure, I'm quite frankly dubious as to how long and miserable a journey it will be considering the inevitable staggering inflation and tax rates that are coming.
If you think this little "crisis" is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet!
Everyone pays the inflation "tax"...everyone. Wait until you see inflation the likes of which the world has never seen! We are on track to be another Zimbabwe.
So for now, Obama is spending on a bureaucratic overhead to take one dollar from me, and giving it to someone who pays no income tax, all that does is means I have one less I can not spend, and that other person has one he can, they cancel each other out, but we've wasted money doing it, it's stupid and does not help the economy.
Anyway, enough for now.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
You know, I completely
agree with this
But it does not follow that the stimulus is a bad idea. Without it, respected economist argue demand, consumer confidence and tax reciepts will plunge even further, worsening deficits. The way I see it, it's $100k with the stimulus or $150+k (arbitrary number) without it.
I know you're not interested in defending Bush, but this huge deficit is necessary to clean up the economic mess he caused. The guy couldn't even come close to balancing a budget in good times.
I'd be ok with you judging Obama's deficits 2-3 years down the road, assuming the economy can gets back up to 3% growth or so (incidentally, it might help the Republican nominee). Not now. He's simply using standard Keynsian theory in an emergency situation.
The "absolute priority rule" is a linchpin of bankruptcy law.
What say you?
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
What "rule"?
Is it a federal regulation, part of a statute, or what? I know Obama's upending standard business practices re: bankruptcy. He feels there is a compelling societal need to do so. Just as, say, mandatory evacuations before a hurricane.
Show me specific wording in a statute that says he can't do this, and I'll join you in condemning his contempt for the rule of law. I'm not convinced by the 5th amendment argument yet. Otherwise, I say tough cookies to those poor bondholders, but we have bigger things to worry about.
Don't put words in my mouth.
Who said I didn't care. I do care. I just don't care to spend time arguing with you about whether they are credible or not.
And this is where your complaint falls off the credibility wagon. Comparing the WSJ to 9/11 conspiracy sites is rdiculous on its face and is not even deserving of a response.
Look, if you found a problem with an article or an opinion piece published in the WSJ, fine, good for you. It's not like we don't find problems with things in the favored liberal media so you have no moral high ground here. It's basically a wash so I'm not going to indulge it further.
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Also,
am I arguing with you, or the Wall Street Journal? If the latter I can always go and post in their comments section. Do you always wholeheartedly agree with everything they say?
Ok, if you want to drop the crap, be civil, and discuss it...
Some background (and this isn't my area of expertise, so this is just general stuff).
Bankruptcy is set up to determine in what order individuals involved with a failed enterprise get paid out of what remains. This is called the "estate" and is usually real property, capital improvements, left over stuff like that.
And the Bankruptcy Code is essentially a method of sorting the parties and determining who gets to stand at the front of the line. Secured creditors--like the creditors I've been referring to above--stand at the very front of the line.
That's where the Obama-directed, Chavez-inspired sale motion comes in. They want to move the secured creditors behind certain unsecured creditors (the unions) and thus screw the rightfully secured creditors of their property.
Because if there's one certainty here, it's that there isn't enough money left in Chrysler to pay everyone who's standing in line.
The secured creditor's motion
is straightforward. (Please scan through it if you would)
The Obama plan is unconstitutional under the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment. In fact, the holding is at the core of Takings jurisprudence. In the words of Justice Brandeis:
To the extent the President suggests that he can simply ignore their constitutionally protected property rights--he is incorrect.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Well done.
You discovered that the impeccably fact-checked WSJ said Article V when they meant Fifth Amendment ;)
But it's still tenuous, at best. First off, it's a stretch to define creditor seniority as "property". I'm pretty sure the fifth was worded so that the Government had to pay you a fair price for your house if they wanted to level it to build a bomb factory or sewage plant. But I too will defer to any constitutional expert on this point. It seems like a much sounder argument than that article 1 section 10 stuff.
Second, there is high uncertainty as to the current worth of Crysler and therefore to the bond's value. They may actually be getting a good deal compared to the liquidation value.
What about the issue of
the Obama team coercing the secured creditors to accept 30%, when they were pushing to get the UAW 50%.
Had you heard this
?
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Well, I like the idea of course.
Were I a bondholder I'd probably be mad, but I'd grit my teeth and bear it. I'm guessing the UAW members were promised benefits that Chrysler is unable to pay and they're getting the 50% stake in lieu. I certainly like that better than the company getting liquidated, the senior creditors getting everything and the workers getting laid off.
Morally, I'd rather protect a worker's pension than a speculator's portfolio. Politically, I don't care whether it helps Democrats or causes a backlash; in the long run good policy is good politics (not that I would want it to become standard policy though). Legally, I see this as a private contract that the Government is justifiably abrogating. If it's somehow unconstitutional, I'm sure the courts will say so.
My understanding
is that the bond holders bought these distressed assets for pennies, (source Erin Bernett, CNBC) so that even at 30 cents they would still have made a tidy profit. That's what is most galling.
I'm only half stupid
30 cents on the dollar invested ML
errr.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Are worker's pensions even really at risk here?
I haven't looked into the details in this specific case, but as far as I can tell the pension benefits are backed by separate accounts which are legally required to be funded to certain levels, and as such those funds are protected in a bankruptcy situation. I am just guessing on the last part, I haven't read up on the topic much.
Does anyone already know the details?
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4This sort of tickles me, on my unfunny bone.
Morally, really, why in the world would you say something as naive as this?
People's portfolio is their retirement, mine certainly is.
As most people, I am not a union worker, and I am not counting on SS either.
Morally? I don't think so.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Morally it is wrong for speculators
to use unsound investment practices to gamble with someone's retirement. Our system collapsed because of risk, yet these speculators look for pools of money (pension funds) to gamble with at unnecessairly risky leverages. Looking to make a quick buck vs long term value. That is how we got in this whole mess in the first place.
Using the Enron model to invest a man's life savings or pension plan is morally and ethically wrong.
I'm only half stupid
Not if that man wanted it that way.
Quit trying to be the moral arbitrator of the world, that is a big part of why you are so out of touch with reality.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Sorry
If you are asking me to stop evaluating the difference between right and wrong, sorry that's not gonna happen. If I didn't care about the difference, I would go on an embezzling spree.
I'm only half stupid
You have a fundamentally flawed view of how things work.
The hedge funds do whatever it is that they do. They don't hide it, they advertise it. Widely. Eveyone who invests with them know exactly what type of investment they are making.
If a given pension fund is invested in a hedge fund it is because the pension fund administrators, not the hedge fund operators, put their money there ... knowing full well the risks involved. The hedge fund guys didn't force anyone to invest in their funds. It was a voluntary decision on the investor's part.
And it is not like these funds suddenly "got a bunch of money" and only THEN decided to put it into distressed companies hoping for a big payoff. That is their up front stated strategy.
If you have a beef with pensions being tied up with hedge funds, your beef is with the pension administrators not the hedge fund operators.
But even if it WERE the hedge fund operators at fault here, why are you complaining? They are holding out to get the best deal they can for their investors ... i.e. the pensions. You were arguing that they should just accept 30 cents on the dollar to "share the sacrifice" ... but who's really sacrificing in that case? The people whose pensions are invested in the funds.
You're basically robbing Peter's pension to pay Paul's when Paul doesn't even have a legal right to the money. And if people have their 401Ks or IRAs in hedge funds? Well that's sort of their own doing but they still expect the fund operators to try and get them the best return that they can ... not just piss it all away for some Democrat sense of a greater good (i.e. the UAW and their deep pocket donations to Obama who is now paying back his debt to them).
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4No I don't
Do you have any clue as to what brought the US and the global financial system to it's knees?
It was essentially unregulated, unsupervised hedge fund operators, some of them working in the financial division of AIG, which we see was the counter party to thousands of risky investments globally and domestically.
May I remind you that the amount of capital owed by AIG to it's counter parties, foreign and domestic, who made redemption calls or margin calls was estimated to 45 Trillion, with a T.
45 Trillion dollars worth of risk that is insured with credit default swaps ( meaning insured with nothing, as in zero capital in the vault to pay of the counter parties) is unethical and surreally mind boggling in the magnitude of it's malfeasance.
I'm only half stupid
Pfft.
Please highlight for me why you think that this SCOTUS ruling has anything whatsoever to do with the President, because as far as I was aware SCOTUS rulings dealt with the constitutionality of laws and their application within the courts. Am I confused on that point?
Of course not. He's trying to get around one as payback to the unions. He's not trying to change the existing uniform bankruptcy laws that we have in place, he just doesn't want them to apply here.
Like I said before, Obama is basically trying to embezzle billions of dollars and using the Chrysler situation as a money laundering scheme.
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Actually, I think so.
The SCOTUS does much more than strike down laws it deems unconstitutional. It is often asked to resolve separation of powers questions, including dealing with executive prerogatives. In extremis it would need to issue court orders to prevent another branch from doing something unconstitutional, wheter it was addressed in a statute or not. Otherwise, there would be nothing to stop a rogue executive from violating the Constitution through executive orders as long as there is no law against it. I once again defer to any constitutional expert on this.
The SCOTUS precedent is relevant because it lays out criteria for the executive to abrogate private contracts without violating Art. I sect. 10, which is what is going on here. Neither you, nor Centinel, nor Purpleface, nor the WSJ have been able to quote a specific law (statute, not constitution) that the Obama administration is violating by doing this. Find me one that says creditor seniority is inviolable and I'll recant.
Fair enough.
Granted, as a general statement of the role of the Supreme Court of the US.
Please be more specific about where the SCOTUS ruling you cited states anything regarding the tests to be applied by the executive, as opposed to the judiciary when determining the Constitutionality of laws. *
--------------------------------------
* Specifically I am referring to this:
Emphasis mine.
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Oh I see.
I was so focused on whether there was a law or constitutional principle against it, I didn't realize you were distinguishing between using executive authority and actually passing a law in order to abrogate the contracts.
The rest of the text mentions a "state regulation" however, not a law. It's pretty ambiguous whether the distinction means anything.
You were too fast, or I was too slow.
While you were replying I was going to add the following to that post:
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Think maybe this does the trick - Will you recant now? ;-)
Please read this
. ;-)
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Wiki is easier on the eyes
And they have links 'n stuff
US Bankruptcy Code, Chapter 11
... see Priority section
Edit: It's short, so I'll just paste it here. Emphasis added:
As a general rule
As in not carved in stone.
There is an exception for the rotten oranges.
As a general rule contracts are renegotiated all the time.
I'm only half stupid
This just in...
Obama says debt load "unsustainable", warns of "skyrocketing interest rates"!
Congrats ML, pat yourself on the back, the nightmare begins... :-/
And now that your messiah has uttered the truth, you can finally believe it too.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Can we get a counter for Mark Sanford?
Gov. Sanford has just borrowed another 20 million to cover the state unemployment checks.
http://www.thestate.com/statewire/story/786536.html
Er, I guess Gov Sanford doesn't have to worry about the humongous debt he will be leaving to So Carolinians, since he will let his successor inherit his financial mess.
I'm only half stupid
Well, smartest person who knows everything in the world
...if you knew anything about South Carolina politics, you would understand MS has nothing to do with that, and it is a big reason why he doesn't want MORE DEBT to deal with.
Or is that debt + debt is not a good idea too simple for you to comprehend?
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
As the current governor
of the state he is responsible for what is happening there in the same way that Obama is responsible for what is happening in the nation.
If you chose to blame Obama for what he inherited when he came into office, to be consistent shouldn't you hold Gov. Sanford to that same standard?
By the standards from which you hold Obama accountable, we can deduce that Mark Sanford now owns every problem in the state of South Carolina. So why is Sanford trying to fix the states problems by taking on more debt. Why isn't Sanford growing So. Carolina's economy and creating more jobs.
I don't see any ideas or solutions in your post other than but but but, 'You don't understand, we inherited this problem. It's not Sanford's fault.". That doesn't really solve anything does it.
I'm only half stupid
Please don't be so obtuse
Stanford is being fiscally responsible and governing as the constitution prescribes, and thus is solving SC's problems.
Obama, in pursuing his big government agenda, is being an economic drunkard and is driving our nation towards a financial Waterloo.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
I appreciate the new tone!
Your answer, though is quite general.
Sanford will be leaving the next governor with a heap of state debt to dig out of and he won't have to face it because he will be out of office.
I'm only half stupid
Do you live here, or understand SC government?
It is archaic, really really archic, lyers upon layer of beuacracies, we have many levels doing repetitive tasks, suffice it to say it is a nightmare.
Sandford has done much to right the ship, more than any governor in my lifetime.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Assuming that Sanford could do a better job
as President, how do you propose that he would create jobs.
He is not creating jobs in his own state, and he is borrowing money like there is no tomorrow to keep up with the states fiscal obligations.
I'm only half stupid
Here's a good starting point ...
review what Obama is currently doing and reverse every decision. :)
Meta: This post is not a serious comment, at least not completely.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Or just wait a while and he'll likely change them himself, lol!
Boy, when he says change you can believe in, he meant it, he's always changing directions.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
You may as well just copy and paste
that as your standard reply.
Whatever Obama/the democrats are doing do the opposite.
~or
Whatever Obama / the democrats are doing 'just say no'.
I'm only half stupid
Well ...
that does seem to be the appropriate response the vast majority of the time! :)
Meta: This post is not a serious comment, at least not completely.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4" Police Catch Missing Ohio Teen Said to Have School Hit List"
A 13-year-old boy from Ohio, who authorities say kept a diary hit list and threatened several faculty members and students at his school, was caught Wednesday night in Dayton, Tenn.
The 13 year old is drove from north central Ohio to Tennessee in a pickup.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
.
this was supposed to be a reply to the GRrrrrr.
I'm only half stupid
The old saying;
"The more things change
, the more they stay stay the same
".
Has never been more true! lol!
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
Yep, Obama is just like Bush who was just like Hitler.
This is just one more example of the equivalence. It is also an example of the Democrat's faux outrage over Bush. Here is the leader of the Democrat party who was so outraged over the use of Military Tribunals now saying the Military Tribunals are the best answer.
The next 4 years promise a never ending supply of comic relief as the Democrats continue to have their lies exposed. *
---------------------------------------------------
* I am, of course, only referring to prominent Democrat politicians and their most ardent supporters.
Meta: This post is a serious comment with a little humor thrown in.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4copy and paste
standard GoRight reply.
I'm only half stupid
There's no such thing
as a "Democrat party" or "Democrat politician". You mean "Democratic". I'm sure that was inadvertant, because Swordscrossed posters are highly unlikely to be persuaded by petty epithets based on cacophony.
History here
As John Podesta said, it's like nails on a chalkboard to us.
like nails on a chalkboard
of course that is why he does it.
It's petty isn't it.
Nothing makes GR happier than poking sticks in democrats eyes. It is what he lives for. :)
We are here for ya, GR.
I'm only half stupid
I'm not gonna look it up ...
but there are some old threads around talking about this. I do it on purpose. In fact, I sometimes have to catch myself and go back to fix it. :)
There is nothing democratic about the Democrat party. So Democrat Party is the name I use for them.
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4We decide our primaries
by popular vote, don't we? Or is your issue with superdelegates?
Well congratulations, you have officially lowered the level of discourse. Typical Rethuglican.
Actually, it seems more like you decide OUR primaries ...
by unpopular vote. That's how we got McCain. :)
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Seriously....
Do you have any idea how these 'enemy combatants' can be tried, since team Bush essentially collected no evidence that can be used in a court, tribunal or otherwise.
Team Bush has made it nearly impossible to prosecute these people with any resemblance of justice.
The best thing that happened so far is that al-Marri confessed to other crimes in a regular court which means he can now be used as a witness. Other than that all other evidence missing, lost, mishandled or gotten through torture which is not considered to be legal evidence.
I'm only half stupid
Like you are privy to any of this ... pfft!
Meta: This post is a serious comment.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4