News Cycle Roundup: Twisting Your Mind

Hello Swordsmen! Let's get right into it.

 

I'd like to open this NCR with a this:

ABC News: A white African-American is suing UMDNJ medical school because he was discriminated against because of his..race? ethnicity? Consider me siding with the plaintiff on this one.

Chapman, of ChiTrib: Terrorists in our neighborhoods? Republicans, I see your fear , and I raise you a few paragraphs of snark.

Megan McArdle: So liberals say Medicare is bankrupt , so we need Universal Health care. Are they trying to break us?

Otherwise, people who want to reform Medicare to make it more cost effective should go ahead and propose the changes to Medicare they can get passed.  I am not going to buy a pig in a poke on the slim chance that the pig might be able to get me 20% off an echocardiogram.

Health Care bigwigs try to walk back   that 2 trillion in cost saving Obama talked about, saying it was overstated.  

 

Dance, Nancy, dance !

Your new government? Same as the old government .

And Obama's drug Czar calls for an end to the War on Drugs ..er, well the name of the War anyway.

 

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Glenn Beck Tries His Level Best

 to get the Head of GM, Fritz Henderson, to Trash the Government and the Unions.

 It doesn't work out so well.

Video link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/15/glenn-beck-fails-to-get-g_n_203...

 

 

When Beck claimed that the unions are "strangling" GM, Henderson shot him down:

"They've been more part of the solution than the problem... yes, we have significant legacy costs that we're trying to address. Frankly, they're trying to help us address those issues at the same time... I view the unions are more part of the solution than the problem. Me personally."

All Beck could say in response was, "Wow, OK."

 

…………

Nice

There IS still calm rationality somewhere in the world.  Yay.   We could use less heat and more light on many similar difficult issues. 

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What's Fritz gonna say?

He's not really a stupid guy.  He can read the writing on the wall.  He has witnessed first hand the strong arm tactics of the Obama administration.  Just ask Rick Wagoner about

what happens to people who don't play the game by Obama's rules.   Fritz can certainly read the writing on the wall: "Toe the Obama line or you're gone."

 

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LOL! Obama fired Wgoner, and hired Henderson...

What would you expect him to say ML?LOL!

With Barack Obama the Union Strongman, and the guy who gave him his job looking over his shoulder?

Would you admit the union killed GM, that what was once a great American car company is now nothing more thn a cash cow for a corrupt union? 

The union's leverage over GM affects everything that the company tries to do in cost cutting. The burning example is retiree health benefits, surely a competitive cost disadvantage if there ever was one.

You love quoting Wrren Buffet;

GM desperately needs decent relations with the UAW. Keeping peace with the union right now almost has to outweigh a public relations problem. The truth is that GM is essentially indentured to the UAW because of the union's power to strike. To that sign of bondage, add another: GM's hourly and salaried employees, present and past, essentially own this company.

At various Berkshire Hathaway meetings, chairman Warren Buffett has envisioned what GM would do if it had contracted many years ago to buy steel at a premium price and had arrived at 2005 needing to get that cost back in line. "It would simply get out of the contract," Buffett has said. "GM's retiree health benefits, arrayed against the benefits that the Japanese companies don't provide, are like paying extra for steel".

But in this Obama the grand puppeteer business climate, Fritz I'm afraid has to suck hind tit.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Not really

Obama didn't exactly "hire" Henderson out of the blue. He was already Vice Chair and CFO of GM before being promoted. That's upper upper management no matter how you slice it.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Well....

He was not a shoe in, he's a weak player and that's what they wanted, he's no CEO of a company like GM that much is for sure.

The old GM board is being replaced by the Obama administration, like they ruined the company, they're finally making interesting cars, it is the UAW that killed GM.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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The UAW likely played a large role

...I agree on that much. But this:

they're finally making interesting cars

is at least as important - the key word being "finally." GM was way too slow to change, and anything innovative they did was never given a chance.

Also, the UAW being part of the problem does not preclude them being part of the solution. In fact, it almost necessitates it.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Why is the UAW even necessary in todays world?

The company will offer a wage and benefit package it can afford, those who find it reasonable can choose to work there, and those who don't can do something else.

We have enough workplace laws, OSHA etc that unions are obsolete.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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The UAW protects the workers so they don't end up like Walmart.

Hard to believe that has to be explained to anyone.

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How so?

I was going to suggest to Centinel that this is a great diary topic, rather than an open thread discussion.

How do you know auto workers would end up like Walmart?   Is that just an outdated assumption, or do you have any facts or examples to back that up?  

Heh, one could even say that ending up like Walmart might not be so bad at this point.  At least the employees at Walmart still have jobs ;-)  Although a more comperable analogy would be that without the UAW, the workers would end up like Toyota.  

Are unions obsolete in most industries today?  Have governmental regulations matured enough to provide the protections that unions used to be famous for?  I think those are fair questions to ask.

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Unions

at one time had too much power. Now the balance has tipped the other way.

Ask yourself who the CEO of a company is serving.

 The share holders

 The workers

 The customers

  We have seen the balance of power shift from the worker to the shareholder. It really bothers me that workers are not honored in this country. They should be, because they are a potential customer and consumer.  Instead workers are looked on as 'the high cost of labor'. as if they aren't deserving.

( Wal-Mart has a bad reputation for using eminent domain, or property theft to build their big box stores and disincentivizing local business, who can't compete with Wal-Mart's cozy trade deals.)

 When a company that is in debt uses debt to honor the shareholders before they honor the customer or the worker, then I suggest the priorities are way out of whack. 

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Heh.

Wal-Mart has a bad reputation for using eminent domain, or property theft

Ummm, some proof on the charge of property theft would be nice.  And I was unaware that Walmart had the power of eminent domain, I thought that was a power of the government ... care to also explain this a bit?

to build their big box stores and disincentivizing local business, who can't compete with Wal-Mart's cozy trade deals.

In other words, who charge higher prices.

 

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GoRight:

If and when you have a chance, you might want to do two things:

A) Rent the DVD of t he documentary film "Wal*Mart:  The High Cost of Low Pricing"

B)  Try to get hold of and read Bill Quinn's book  "How Wal*Mart is destroying the World and What  You Can Do About it'.  

Both the above-mentioned documentary film and the book about Wal*Mart's policies give excellent insight as to what Wal*Mart's doing.  View it, Read it...and knock your socks off!

 

 

 

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kindness

 Progressives make a mistake with this assumption.

 First off, it sounds snotty. "Hard to believe that it has to be explained to anyone".

 Secondly, I think you are aware that the dialogue has been co-opted, by folks who spend a lot of money and time, decades even,  to vilify labor and unions and glorify the wealthy. Remember in the old days the wealthy aristocrats were the target of much resentment. The English powdered white hairs that looked down their noses.

 This is no small effort. The business community has worked hard since the populist backlash against banks and business after the New Deal to glorify business. We see this with quaint phrases, like 'Here come the democrats, grab your wallet." These folks that vote against their own self interest haven't yet figured out that the tax cuts they vote for actually are going to the wealthiest few, who have not allowed the wealth to 'trickle down', but to trickle out and up'.

 

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Stop looking for a free lunch already.

We see this with quaint phrases, like 'Here come the democrats, grab your wallet." These folks that vote against their own self interest haven't yet figured out that the tax cuts they vote for actually are going to the wealthiest few, who have not allowed the wealth to 'trickle down', but to trickle out and up'.

Try getting out of the wagon and help pushing for a while, would ya?

 

Meta: This post is a semi-good natured ribbing.

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There's another reason

There's another reason why he'd be circumspect.

It's bad negotiation strategy to be trashing your stakeholders in public.   No problem-solver in his right mind would go on the air as saying "yeah, these guys are such jerks."

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More links on the legalization topic

Love this bit from the War on Drugs link....it's really the kernel of the matter:

As I noted in 1998, however, he "still thinks that people who possess politically incorrect chemicals should be arrested, humiliated, imprisoned, and divested of their property. Presumably, though, it should be done with compassion."

And, Calderone came out in support of legalization this week, and the Mexican Congress is talking about it too.   

We really should just get off our high horse about pot.  People smoke it.  Legalize it before the criminals are powerful enought to begin running entire states...oh, wait, nevermind....

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Krugman delves into global warming

Here

The scientific consensus on prospects for global warming has become much more pessimistic over the last few years. Indeed, the latest projections from reputable climate scientists border on the apocalyptic. Why? Because the rate at which greenhouse gas emissions are rising is matching or exceeding the worst-case scenarios.

And the growth of emissions from China — already the world’s largest producer of carbon dioxide — is one main reason for this new pessimism.

China’s emissions, which come largely from its coal-burning electricity plants, doubled between 1996 and 2006.

Unfortunately I doubt this will spur much left-right debate; Krugman makes no inferences about the causality or consequences of man-made global warming.  Which is a good thing: he can get into trouble when he wanders away from economics.  Still, more evidence to promote nuclear :)

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Maureen Dowd throws Peolsi under the bus ...

Here's the juiciest bits ... :)

Cheney, Master of Pain

Nancy Pelosi’s bad week of blithering responses about why she did nothing after being briefed on torture has given Republicans one of their happiest — and harpy-est — weeks in a long time. They relished casting Pelosi as contemptible for not fighting harder to stop their contemptible depredations against the Constitution. That’s Cheneyesque chutzpah.

The stylish grandmother acted like a stammering child caught red-handed, refusing to admit any fault and pointing the finger at a convenient scapegoat. She charged the C.I.A. with misleading Congress, which is sort of like saying the butler did it, or accusing a generic thuggish-looking guy in a knit cap with gang tattoos to distract from your sin.

...

I used to agree with President Obama, that it was better to keep moving and focus on our myriad problems than wallow in the darkness of the past. But now I want a full accounting. I want to know every awful act committed in the name of self-defense and patriotism. Even if it only makes one ambitious congresswoman pay more attention in some future briefing about some future secret technique that is “uniquely” designed to protect us, it will be worth it.

Are Nancy's days finally numbered?

 

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Truth Commission

Does this mean you support the establisment of a truth commission to get to the bottom of this? That would expose all of Pelosi's lies, right?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I don't favor a truth commission convened by Democrats ...

because it would be a witch hunt commission, not a truth commission.  But if they do convene such a farce I think that everyone involved, including Pelosi and the Democrats, should be included and on the table.

 

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I would hope...

...that it would be bipartisan / non-partisan if it is to have any credibility whatsoever. And I completely agree that Pelosi, etc. should not be excluded from scrutiny.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Leon Panetta throws Pelosi's corpse under the bus.

Leon Panetta basically calls Pelosi a big fat lying liar:

CIA Chief Rebuts Pelosi on Briefings

The Central Intelligence Agency's chief fought back Friday against House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's assertion that the CIA "was misleading" Congress, issuing a memo defending the integrity of its employees and contradicting her assertion that she wasn't told about the agency's use of waterboarding to interrogate suspected terrorists.

...

"CIA officers briefed truthfully on the interrogation of al Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah, describing 'the enhanced techniques that had been employed,'" Mr. Panetta wrote in a memo to agency employees. He was referring to an alleged senior al Qaeda detainee in CIA custody in September 2002, when Ms. Pelosi attended a briefing in her capacity as the senior Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee.

"Let me be clear: It is not our policy or practice to mislead Congress," he wrote. "That is against our laws and our values."

Other intelligence officials also contradicted Ms. Pelosi's account of the briefing, saying her assertion that she wasn't told waterboarding was in use at the time is wrong. "That's 180 degrees different from what the CIA's records show," an intelligence official said.

Oh the tangled webs we weave when at first we practice to deceive.  Multiple sources are confirming that she was briefed on the use of the techniques and yet she continues to try and deny it.

Keep digging, Nancy, please keep digging!  :)

 

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And just when you thought Obama couldn't be more like Bush ...

19 arrested at Notre Dame protest against Obama

Nineteen demonstrators were arrested at Notre Dame University on Saturday as they protested against President Obama's scheduled commencement speech Sunday, campus police said.

this kind of thing starts turning up ... <shakes head in disbelief>

<open arms to the sky as if speaking to God> Oh the humanity!

 

Meta: This post is illustrating the absurdity of the left by mimicking their absurdity.

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Remember all that talk about Chrysler, and the union preferences

...Obama showed them despite a bankruptcy code with years of precedent giving the premium paying "secured" creditor preferred position.

Well forget all that, or not.

It seems now Obama is threatening California by witholding 7B of desperately wanted stimulous funding if they don't kiss the ass of, you guessed it, another union .

Even weirder, Arnold Schwarzenegger had a conference call with the Obama people last week, and was just a little surprised to find it wasn't just them on the line, oh no, on the line were representatives of the ...SEIU. Funny when I checked their website, it prominently says "Change that works ". Hmmm?

Officials in the governor’s office say a politically powerful union may have had inappropriate influence over the Obama administration’s decision to withhold billions of dollars in federal stimulus money from California if the state does not reverse a scheduled wage cut for the labor group’s workers.

The officials say they are particularly troubled that the Service Employees International Union, which lobbied the federal government to step in, was included in a conference call in which state and federal officials reviewed the wage cut and the terms of the stimulus package.

California Secretary of Health and Human Services Kim Belshe said she could not recall another instance in which the federal government invited a significant stakeholder group into such government-to-government negotiations.

“The involvement of a stakeholder in this kind of state-federal deliberative process is unusual at best,” she said. “This was really atypical and outside any norm I am familiar with.”

In addition to several state and federal officials, participants in the April 15 conference call included an SEIU associate general counsel in Washington, a lobbyist for SEIU in California and a representative from SEIU’s policy staff in California, according to a list provided by the Schwarzenegger administration.

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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newflash: sugar isn't sweet

Convince us why raising taxes for billionaire CEO's is unthinkable, while wage cuts for laborers making 21 thousand a year is no problem.

Convince us that drug companies  lobbying the government with millions is fine, but groups for labor that lobby the same government is just pure insanity.

Meanwhile try convincing us that sugar isn't sweet.

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Next paragraph...

The protesters were not students and they were arrested for trespassing when they stepped on the campus, which is private property, Notre Dame police spokesman Dennis Brown told CNN Radio.

I thought Republicans actually believed in property rights? Am I mistaken? :P

Note: the protesters were warned in advance that they would be arrested if they stepped on campus.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Dear GoRight

 

 You keep making this proclamation that Obama is just like Bush. 

  If you really believe that shouldn't you be defending Obama just as vociferously and steadfastly as you did Bush?

 

  .

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Dear ML

You keep making this proclamation that Obama is just like Bush. 

If you really believe that shouldn't you be defending Obama just as vociferously and steadfastly as you did Bush?

But I am defending him, am I not?  Given the premise you have provided what better defense could there be on my part than saying Obama is just like Bush!  :)

In fact, the complete collapse of all these promises on his part is a vindication of the Bush policies.  I knew it would come down to this and that those promises were merely faux bones for the liberal masses to dupe them into thinking he actually intended to change the policies.

The fact is that he is NOT changes the policies in any substantive way simply BECAUSE those policies are reasonable and correct to begin with, and they had no practical alternatives. *

----------------------------------------------

* This statement excludes things for which I publicly denounced Bush for like his spending.

 

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That's silly

 I will look forward to your next defense of  Obama's policies, because just like Bush he wears a suit and tie to formal dinners.

 

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ML

When Obama runs a campaign making all sorts of promises of how he will do it differently than Bush, and then shows up in the White House with no ideas on how to to that...

We told you guys to ask more questions. lol.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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He's doing fine

 I'll take Obama over Mark Sanford ten days a week and everyday of the year.

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As with a lot of other things,

 It looks like Obama backpeddled somewhat on his  pro-choice position.  Not surprising that he did that, imho.  

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Victoria Toensing on the "Torture Memos".

You all remember Victoria Toensing, right?  From the faux liberal Valerie Plame flap?  She is the former chief counsel for the Senate Intelligence Committee and deputy assistant attorney general in the Reagan administration who effectively put the stake through the heart of the meme that Republicans "outed" a CIA operative.  As she so effectively pointed out in Congressional hearings Valerie Plame was not  a "covert" operative of the CIA at the time that her name made it into national prominence.  Other than making Henry Waxman almost literally foam at the mouth in anger, nothing much else came out of the matter after her testimony.

Now she is tackling the substance of the claims from the liberal surrounding the so called "Torture Memos".  What she has to say will likely lead to a repeat performance of Waxman's outrage from somewhere within the liberal camp.

Critics Still Haven't Read the 'Torture' Memos

The Justice Department lawyers wrote two opinions totaling 54 pages. One went to White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales, the other to the CIA general counsel.

Both memos noted that the legislative history of the 1994 torture statute was "scant." Neither house of Congress had hearings, debates or amendments, or provided clarification about terms such as "severe" or "prolonged mental harm." There is no record of Rep. Jerrold Nadler -- who now calls for impeachment and a criminal investigation of the lawyers -- trying to make any act (e.g., waterboarding) illegal, or attempting to lessen the specific intent standard.

The Gonzales memo analyzed "torture" under American and international law. It noted that our courts, under a civil statute, have interpreted "severe" physical or mental pain or suffering to require extreme acts: The person had to be shot, beaten or raped, threatened with death or removal of extremities, or denied medical care. One federal court distinguished between torture and acts that were "cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment." So have international courts. The European Court of Human Rights in the case of Ireland v. United Kingdom (1978) specifically found that wall standing (to produce muscle fatigue), hooding, and sleep and food deprivation were not torture.

The U.N. treaty defined torture as "severe pain and suffering." The Justice Department witness for the Senate treaty hearings testified that "[t]orture is understood to be barbaric cruelty . . . the mere mention of which sends chills down one's spine." He gave examples of "the needle under the fingernail, the application of electrical shock to the genital area, the piercing of eyeballs. . . ." Mental torture was an act "designed to damage and destroy the human personality."

The treaty had a specific provision stating that nothing, not even war, justifies torture. Congress removed that provision when drafting the 1994 law against torture, thereby permitting someone accused of violating the statute to invoke the long-established defense of necessity.

The memo to the CIA discussed 10 requested interrogation techniques and how each should be limited so as not to violate the statute. The lawyers warned that no procedure could be used that "interferes with the proper healing of Zubaydah's wound," which he incurred during capture. They observed that all the techniques, including waterboarding, were used on our military trainees, and that the CIA had conducted an "extensive inquiry" with experts and psychologists./p>

But now, safe in ivory towers eight years removed from 9/11, critics demand criminalization of the techniques and the prosecution or disbarment of the lawyers who advised the CIA. Contrary to columnist Frank Rich's uninformed accusation in the New York Times that the lawyers "proposed using" the techniques, they did no such thing. They were asked to provide legal guidance on whether the CIA's proposed methods violated the law.

Then there is Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson, who declared that "waterboarding will almost certainly be deemed illegal if put under judicial scrutiny," depending on which "of several possibly applicable legal standards" apply. Does he know the Senate rejected a bill in 2006 to make waterboarding illegal? That fact alone negates criminalization of the act. So quick to condemn, Mr. Robinson later replied to a TV interview question that he did not know how long sleep deprivation could go before it was "immoral." It is "a nuance," he said.

Thank you, Ms. Toensing, for once again laying out the actual facts of the case in such clear terms.

 

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What's Victoria Toensing's defintion of "is"

...threatened with death....

Simulated drownings isn't being "threatened" with death?

Does he know the Senate rejected a bill in 2006 to make waterboarding illegal? That fact alone negates criminalization of the act.

The entire Congress also passed a bill that would outlaw waterboarding...what about that fact Victoria? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/02/13/national/w14...

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Besides why would

 anyone want to legalize torture, when it has been proven that it does not work. It produces false information.

 

 

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Torture doesn't work?

...and that's proven you say?

Well good thing to her, because by that very definition waterboarding is not torture, because waterboarding produces results.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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That has not been verified

 n/t

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No ML, what YOU said has not been verified

...what I stated most certainly has .

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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That article is questionable

 

 There were Congressional hearings last week, which means the testimony was taken under oath, that disprove the claim in that article. It was a professional FBI interrogator that got that information.

 It has been verified over and over that torture does not work.

 It does not produce reliable evidence.

The CIA did not get that information the FBI did, without using torture.

 

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You equivically say this and that...maddening.

Here is more to consider;

Goss, a former CIA operative, has made few public comments since leaving his post as DCI in September 2006. In December 2007, he told a Washington Post reporter that members of Congress had been fully briefed on the CIA’s special interrogation program. “Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing,” Goss told the Post. “And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement.”

In a letter to his intelligence community colleagues last Thursday, Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair described those briefings. “From 2002 through 2006 when the use of these techniques ended, the leadership of the CIA repeatedly reported their activities both to Executive Branch policymakers and to members of Congress, and received permission to continue to use the techniques.”

That passage from Blair’s letter – along with another confirming that the interrogations produced “high-value information” that provided a “deeper understanding of the al Qaeda organization attacking this country” – was dropped when language from the letter was released publicly. A spokesman for Blair attributed to the omission to normal editing procedures.

Emphasis mine.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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This bill to outlaw waterboarding

 would have been vetoed by President Bush. 

  Wednesday's Senate vote set up a confrontation with the White House, where Bush has promised to veto any bill that restricts CIA questioning.

(from the article Brut linked to dated Feb o8)

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Actually, no it isn't ...

Simulated drownings isn't being "threatened" with death?

The key word the is simulated:

Main Entry: sim·u·late
Pronunciation: \ˈsim-yə-ˌlāt\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): sim·u·lat·ed; sim·u·lat·ing
Etymology: Latin simulatus, past participle of simulare to copy, represent, feign, from similis like — more at same
Date: 1652

1 : to give or assume the appearance or effect of often with the intent to deceive : imitate
2 : to make a simulation of (as a physical system)

In other words, they are not really in danger of drowning so they are not being "threatened" with death.

 

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"Simulated"

Simulated executions are considered torture by virtually any definition, so your defense here is inadequate.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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That's a pretty broad assertion ...

Simulated executions are considered torture by virtually any definition ...

Please point me to where this is written.  It's certainly not torture given the definition of simulated.  I reject your premise a false on its face unless and until you can provide some form of substantiation with respect to "virtually any definition".

 

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Rejecting the premise that there's an elephant in the room

What are you going to try and parlay that into?
That psychological torture isn't one branch of torture?
That giving the sensation of drowning isn't simulating drowning?
Waterboarding makes it feel like you are being drowned, and your arguing in good faith that's not giving the appearance of being drowned when done by masked men or that waterboarding doesn't make one feel like they are drowning?
Are you arguing that it was not the intent of the interrogators to simulate drowning, then why the hell would they use it? What's the point of putting cloth on person's face and dumping water on them (if not to simulate the sensation of downing, ergo simulating drowning)? Does it depend on your definition of "is?"

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I am not arguing anything more than ...

in "waterboarding" the individual is in no real danger of serious physical harm nor are they being subjected to severe pain (the sensation of drowning is not "painful" even through it does induce an involuntary feeling of panic) and so it is not torture.

Besides, I think calling waterboarding a "mock execution" is a bit of a stretch.  Who executes people by strapping them to boards and pouring water on their faces?  To be a mock execution doesn't the act in question have to reasonably resemble an actual execution?

And given what is generally known about waterboarding and how it is used, I would say that the individual being subjected to it has a reasonable expectation that those subjecting him to the treatment are not actually interested in killing them.  There is clearly an interest at play in keeping the subject alive to provide additional information.

Now, if you want to talk mock execution think fake firing squad.  The subject is lead in front of a group of people who are assembled to look like an actual firing squad but unbeknownst to the subject they are all loaded with blanks.  So when the order to fire is given and they hear the shots ring out they won't even know that they haven't actually been shot for some amount of time.

 

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IOW

Your saying waterboarding is ok 'cus we're the good guys?

And a mock firing squad won't really be a mock firing squad 'cus they'd know we're the good guys. What if interrogators could put electrodes on the detainee's head and give the sensation of drowning, is that ok? There is the branch of torture in which psychological torture is a part, right? Torture Racks and Iron Maiden's aren't the only tools that need to be involved in torture. If someone was put in front of a firing squad for the first time, told the fake looking guns were empty, and then peppered with blanks. I call that a mock execution, that's more akin waterboarding.

 

Making someone feel like they are about to get "accidentally" drowned isn't torture?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Virtually any definition

If you can find a definition of torture that doesn't include psychological trauma, then I rescind the "virtually any definition" phrase, but I'd still say that if you do find one, it's a piss-poor definition.

As far as some examples of definitions that specifically include simulated executions (generally called mock executions, we've got:

Wikipedia : "A mock execution is a method of psychological torture..."

Federal Law : includes in its definition of torture "severe mental pain... resulting from... the threat of imminent death."

International Law : the Inter-American Commission and Court... have found the following acts or measures to constitute torture or inhumane treatment in the context of interrogation and detention: [lots of stuff, including] mock executions...
The UN Human Rights Committee has found similar acts or conduct to constitute torture and other inhumane treatment. These include beatings, electric shocks, and mock executions...

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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So what (approximately) is the proportion of ...

"virtually any definition" have you covered thus far with these three definitions this far?

I'd still say that if you do find one, it's a piss-poor definition.

OK, fine, but at least admit that this moves the goal post from "virtually any definition" to "virtually any definition that SL agrees with".  :)

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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99%

US Law and International Law covers the most important definitions, I'd say.

OK, fine, but at least admit that this moves the goal post from "virtually any definition" to "virtually any definition that SL agrees with".  :)

Actually, I'd say it is virtually any definition that virtually everyone agrees with. I'd say most people would agree that the psychological trauma of thinking you are about to die qualifies as torture. I'd further say that most people would find both torture in general and such psychological trauma to be illegal/immoral/bad. A small percentage of people (psychopaths?) might think both torture in general and mock executions specifically are great things to do. Then there is the 1% of the world population known as American Republicans who have the cognitive dissonance thing going, where they are "against torture" but A-OK with interrogations that involve making someone think they are about to die.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Heh.

... interrogations that involve making someone think they are about to die.

Already got it covered .  I would argue that the people being waterboarded have a pretty good idea, and an accurate one at that, that they are NOT in imminent danger of dying.  Everyone knows that waterboarding is intended to be a technique that WON'T kill the subject, and this is especially true for trained terrorists.

US Law and International Law covers the most important definitions ...

Oh, so now the goal post is "most important definitions" not "virtually any definition".

 

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Like I said...

Cognitive dissonance. I bet you actually believe that a technique designed to create the feeling that you are drowning does not create the feeling that you are dying. I am not really sure how you can convince yourself of that, but cognitive dissonance is a difficult thing to understand from the outside (and a difficult thing to acknowledge from the inside.)

Oh, so now the goal post is "most important definitions" not "virtually any definition".

You can try to make this into an argument about semantics if you want. I don't really care. However you word it, your basic stance is wrong, and mine is right. :P

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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My stance is that you made a fundamentally unsupportable ...

statement and I called you on it.  It's not big deal.  It's easy to do.  But now you are trying to move the goal post without acknowledging that you are doing so and I am calling you on that too.

From my perspective this discussion has always been about the semantics of your statement, and nothing else.  Given the places that you have tried to move the goal post to your position is admittedly much more defensible there than where it started out, but don't try to equate that with you were right to begin with because you weren't.  If you had started out when you have ended up I wouldn't have commented at all.  :P

 

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No problem

Well, since my "moved goalpost" still refutes the comment that I replied to, I'm fine with that.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Huh?

The entire Congress also passed a bill that would outlaw waterboarding...what about that fact Victoria? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/02/13/national/w14...

What does this have to do with her actual statement?  Let us review:

Toensing: Does he know the Senate rejected a bill in 2006 to make waterboarding illegal?

Her reference was in regard to actions in 2006.  Your response was with respect to actions taken in 2008.  I fail to see how the latter can affect the validity of the former.

 

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The new talking points

So is it the new argument now that these activities aren't torture, that they are merely "cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment?" I guess that makes it OK, then?

I also have to wonder why, if these guys did such a bang-up job with their legal analysis, they failed to mention the relevant precedent cases :

Horton suspects that Bybee, Yoo and Bradbury were well aware of the case law, but simply chose to ignore it in order to give the Bush administration what it had asked for.

"To take one example, there was a court-martial addressing the practice of waterboarding from 1903, a state court case from the twenties, a series of prosecutions at the [post-World War II] Tokyo Tribunal (in many of which the death penalty was sought) and another court-martial in 1968," Horton said. "These precedents could have been revealed in just a few minutes of computerized research using the right search engines. It's hard to imagine that Yoo and Bybee didn't know them.

"So why are none of these precedents mentioned? Obviously because each of them contradicts the memo's conclusions and would have to be distinguished away. Professional rules would have required that these precedents be cited, failing to do so reflects incompetent analysis."

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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The pro torture case is weak

 Torture is not only illegal, but immoral.

 Republicans use word blizzards that create so much confusion around any given issue, that I swear they could convince people that sugar isn't sweet, or that drinking poison is just like drinking fresh squeezed orange juice.

 

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I think they call this....

.... plausible deniability -- though 'plausible' is probably pushing it.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Dudes, KSM was the brains behind the murder of 3K+ people

...and would have killed many, many more thousnds if he had it his way, he is the embodiment of evil.

I mean get real, as far as I am concerned they could have performed "simulated drowning" and waterboarded that SOB 183 times more, 583 times, 1083 times, or hell, everyday all day for the rest of that murdering b!tches life.

His life's value is only in the information he possessed, beyond that he should spend the rest of his miserable life, just suffering.

Now, that being said, to know my country is so awesome that procedures were followed, attorney's consulted, congress folks informed, and nothing whatsoever that so much as even left a bruise was employed, on such a worthless piece of ____ as KSM, makes me happy to be an American.

Grow up liberals.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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More evidence that Pelosi is a big fat liar ...

Source: Aide told Pelosi waterboarding had been used

A source close to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi now confirms that Pelosi was told in February 2003 by her intelligence aide, Michael Sheehy, that waterboarding was actually used on CIA detainee Abu Zubaydah. *

------------------------------------

* Note: I personally don't buy into the use of anonymous sources.  This reference is provided only for the benefit of those who DO believe such sources.  :)

 

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Nancy spins it like there's no tomorrow

...and for Mrs. Pelosi, in Washington there may not be many tommorrows left.

When you have John Boehner saying;

“If the speaker is accusing the CIA and other intelligence officials of lying or misleading the Congress, then she should come forward with evidence and turn that over to the Justice Department so they be prosecuted. And if that’s not the case, I think she ought to apologize to our intelligence professionals around the world.”

And you hide from the media and decline to do your usual dog and pony show on Sunday morning political shows.

And after trying over the last few days to suggest the CIA lies to us, and does so all the time, one inexplicably does a 180 and now says they are just a group of neat fella's who would never do anything wrong and love their country, and this whole mix up is just...LOL...GW's fault.

Speaker Nancy Pelosi responded Friday to CIA Director Leon Panetta's public disagreement with her charge that she was misled by the agency on the use of waterboarding and other aggressive interrogation techniques.

"We all share great respect for the dedicated men and women of the intelligence community who are deeply committed to the safety and security of the American people," she said in a statement issued by her office. "My criticism of the manner in which the Bush Administration did not appropriately inform Congress is separate from my respect for those in the intelligence community who work to keep our country safe.

"What is important now is to be united in our commitment to ensuring the security of our country; that, and how Congress exercises its oversight responsibilities, will continue to be my focus as we move forward."

One, such as Nancy Pelosi has done, loses all credibility.

H/T

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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The lightening rod....

 Nancy Pelosi loses all credibility? That makes an assumption that you gave her any credibility in the first place.

   Bill Kristol thinks that Rahm Emanuel put Leon Panetta up to this, so that Obama can push her aside. But Bill Kristol didn't know that the Sunni's and the Shiite's were bitter rivals, so take his words with a grain of salt.

   Is this a test of Nancy's leadership? Is there any doubt that she has always been a lightening rod for Republicans? 

  Republicans have always enjoyed treating Speaker Pelosi as whipping post, but they are likely wasting their time. While Republicans are having fun at her expense they have not created one job.

  

  

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ML, do you have ANY capacity to look at evidence and think

...for yourself?

Because this is a simple one. Pelosi and Reid are both poor leaders and have screwed up the congress for too long now.

 Nancy Pelosi loses all credibility? That makes an assumption that you gave her any credibility in the first place.

One does not bestow credibility upon another, it must be earned.

   Bill Kristol thinks that Rahm Emanuel put Leon Panetta up to this, so that Obama can push her aside. But Bill Kristol didn't know that the Sunni's and the Shiite's were bitter rivals, so take his words with a grain of salt.

Put him up to it? If you were the head of the CIA, and were smeared in public by a member of congress, what would you do. It makes perfect sense, no conspiracy story necessary.

   Is this a test of Nancy's leadership? Is there any doubt that she has always been a lightening rod for Republicans? 

Nancy's leadership is non-existant. Where have you been? She's been in the drivers seat for  while...what has she done? Nothing that's what.

  Republicans have always enjoyed treating Speaker Pelosi as whipping post, but they are likely wasting their time. While Republicans are having fun at her expense they have not created one job.

Pelosi is a joke, your party would be way better off without her!

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Have a blast

 Attack away if it  makes your day.

 

  

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Where am I attacking you?

I just wish you would call one for what it really is for once.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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I didn't say you were

attacking me!

 I said have fun attacking Nancy Pelosi.

I know you think it is great fun. So attack away if it makes your day.

Never mind that the office of the Vice President was using lawyers to create a legal smokescreen for torture.   You are trying to make torture all about, OMG, Nancy Pelosi.

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LOL! So that's how bad it's gotten?

Oh my my...

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Will you believe a Fox News Source

 Like I said blaming Pelosi  -->a member of the opposition party <--, while Cheney was using lawyers to create a smokescreen for using torture...... is just odd.

Why do you keep blaming Pelosi for Cheney's experiment?

 

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/probes-of-bush-administration/fox-focu...

 The Fox correspondent, Jonathan Hunt, says the Pelosi focus is a distraction from a real debate about torture:

“Instead of this debate being about national security, what is and isn’t torture, what the Bush administration should and shouldn’t have allowed and whether anybody in that administration should now be prosecuted, the Republicans are now able to frame this debate as to whether Nancy Pelosi is fit to continue as Speaker. So they are not about to let their foot off the gas in any way, shape, or form.”

 

 

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ML, I have to conclude you are either a) very simple minded

...or b) very cunning in feigning ignorance. ;-)

We have established that the Bush administration went to extraordinary lengths to do the next right indicated thing in terms of the interrogations.

The four memos on CIA interrogation released by the White House last week reveal a cautious and conservative Justice Department advising a CIA that cared deeply about staying within the law. Far from "green lighting" torture -- or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees -- the memos detail the actual techniques used and the many measures taken to ensure that interrogations did not cause severe pain or degradation.

Regardless, in a hyper partisan tirade we have heard Nancy Pelosi continually rail against the CIA and claim she was unaware of the use of these techniques.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi bluntly accused the CIA on Thursday of misleading her and other lawmakers about its use of waterboarding during the Bush administration, escalating a controversy grown to include both political parties, the spy agency and the White House.

And we now know these things are not true .

 

CIA Director Leon Panetta just sent a stern message to his employees defending the agency against Speaker Nancy Pelosi's criticisms.

His message: We didn't mislead Congress; stay focused on your job.

Panetta's note was sent to reporters via the CIA press office. Here's the key graph:

 

"Let me be clear: It is not our policy or practice to mislead Congress. That is against our laws and our values. As the Agency indicated previously in response to Congressional inquiries, our contemporaneous records from September 2002 indicate that CIA officers briefed truthfully on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, describing “the enhanced techniques that had been employed.”

Now, whether the case is one of being bird brained, or the employment of a subtle genius, given the wide range of sources, and the very circumstances surrounding these events, you must concede that no one has done this to the Democrats or Nancy Pelosi, other than Nancy Pelosi herself.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Guess what

I really and truly don't care. This is just a meaningless sideshow, imho.

 Like I said, you can blame Nancy Pelosi for being single handedly responsible for torture if it tickles your funny bone. 

 It's great to see the GOP's moral get a boost. Enjoy your witch hunt.

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The road to hell is paved....

We have established that the Bush administration went to extraordinary lengths to do the next right indicated thing in terms of the interrogations.

They went to extraordinary lengths and failed.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I don't think

 folks understand that water boarding, whether you want to call it torture or not, does not illicit good or reliable information. It's really that simple.

 

 

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I like Jesse, but

...he's just pandering and doing what he does to sell books and get attention.

These decisions were not contradictory to what the US had done for decades, this is a Bush witch hunt, and NOTHING more.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Are you serious or is that

Are you serious or is that just some quip?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Serious?

Very much so ...

...Bush administration interrogation policies do not represent a dramatic repudiation of and stark departure from American traditions.

...during the period from 1949 to 1973, the CIA authorized the use of, and used, such special interrogation techniques as truth drugs, LSD, heat and cold, "electric methods," and narco-hypnosis. Towards the end of this period, it begin to rely less on severe measures to lower the source's physiological resistance and more on ways to reduce their psychological capacity to resist. This meant increased reliance on isolation, threats, disruption of sleep patterns, and use of stress positions.

The armed forces also relied on narcotics and used LSD from 1958-1962. Even prisoners of war could be made to stand at attention when being interrogated and no time limit was placed on this technique. Sleep deprivation without limitation was also permitted. So was isolation. It should be noted that when these techniques were authorized for use by military interrogators in 2002, they were sanctioned only on a more limited basis and only for use on unlawful combatants, not prisoners of war.

After 1973, interrogation by proxy came to characterize U.S. policy on obtaining information from those who did not wish to give it up. The CIA continued to interpret the law as allowing the use of stress positions, disrupted sleep, solitary confinement, sensory deprivation, threats of violence, temperature manipulation, and examination of body cavities. However, with the agency under intense scrutiny at home and with the law being uncertain (international law on interrogation has been, and remains, short on specific definitions of that which it prohibits), the simplest solution was to farm out interrogations to others. Both the CIA and the U.S. military provided training in coercive interrogation techniques to its proxies.

...waterbording may be an exception, it is unclear to me as to its precedent.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Changing Moral Zeitgeist...

...and the CIA has a history of not being the pinnacle of "legality"
A history of doing something doesn't forgive continuing that history and isn't justification for that action be right in the first place. Researchers gave black men syphilis and didn't treat them, I don't think those people were prosecuted, a start of a tradition.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Wow are you prone to factual aggrandizement.

The CIA has a history of doing what it takes to keep us safe and sound in a not so hospitable world.

The Tuskegee thing was not the CIA, but it did happen, once, upon a time long by gone, and it was wrong, and now a black dude is the prez, what a great country, huh.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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The CIA has a history of

The CIA has a history of doing what it takes to keep us safe and sound in a not so hospitable world.

Ron Paul and good number of other people would claim the CIA has a history of starting slow burning fires that burn the US later on.

he Tuskegee thing was not the CIA, but it did happen, once, upon a time long by gone, and it was wrong, and now a black dude is the prez, what a great country, huh.

It was just an example of playing The Lottery because of past precedent isn't much of a reason in and of itself.
I'm sure there are many in PETA that are upset that Bush ate too much meat, that doesn't mean they are on a witch hunt, they don't care if past/current POTUS' eat meat.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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LOL

Now you have been reduced to quoting washed up professional wrestlers?  Geeze, man, show some dignity.

You do know that professional wrestling isn't real, right?  That it's just a show put on by actors?

 

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The only thing Bill Kristol had going for himself

Sunni's and Shia's that lived in mixed neighborhoods were a-ok with each other, Sunni's in Shia's in rural or lived in geographically segregated cities/parts of towns didn't care for each other.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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"evidence"?

How can you characterize this stuff from an anonymous source as "evidence" of anything, when you are on record as saying "Anonymous allegations have zero credibility in my book" ?   Funny how stuff that has "zero credibility" when a GoRight favorite is under fire suddenly becomes "evidence" when a reviled liberal is on the defensive...  but when there's a juicy tidbit to be shared about a Democrat, all consistency goes out the window, eh?  Your title betrays your true feeling about anonymous sources, and nullifies your winking disclaimer and all your previous statements about your disdain for the use of anonymous sources.  The truth is that you're more than happy to give at least some weight to a story based on an anonymous source if it is a story that you'd like to be true.

 

 

 

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Read the fine print, skymutt ...

* Note: I personally don't buy into the use of anonymous sources.  This reference is provided only for the benefit of those who DO believe such sources.  :)

You don't get to just ignore the disclaimers.  I am 100% consistent here.  I clearly state that I don't buy into the use of anonymous sources.  But since we DO have OTHERS on this board that like to use them I am merely quoting this and putting it in context for THEM.

I stated it up front, dude, so your clearly anticipated attack falls completely short of the mark.

 

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Sorry, not good enough.

This is your way of attempting to have it both ways, have the best of both worlds, have your cake and eat it too, etc.  It is your rationalizations which fall short of he mark, not my "attack".  Your disclaimer was just an implicit admission that you knew you were on thin ice.  I merely provided the public service of informing you that you had broken thru that ice.

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Hardly.

I can certainly disclaim the use of anonymous sources for my own purposes but still point them out for those who consider them valid.  I proactively pointed out that the quote was from an anonymous and proactively pointed out that I had previously sworn them off.

Your complaint here is just your way to continue to rely on anonymous sources (or enable those you agree with to do so) while preventing others from pointing out such sources when they go against you.  Why are you against having all the anonymous sources out there for those who want to believe them?

 

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Maybe if you had posted it without comment, you'd have a point

But you called the info from the anonymous source "evidence that Pelosi is a big fat liar".  So, far from "swearing off" the use of anonymous sources, you used one to bolster your own case that Pelosi is a liar.  And it puts the lie to your claim that you were merely posting the source for the informational purposes of others-- quite the opposite, you posted it as evidence for your own claim. 

If you had not made your editorial comment about Pelosi in your original post, I would have probably let it pass.  But I can't just let you post lie after lie, saying you "disclaim the use of anonymous sources", etc. when you clearly used the anonymous source in your original post (as opposed to merely posting it for 'informational purposes').

 

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LOL, yea, that was an editorial comment.

It was merely stating in the subject what the post was going to be about in a factually accurate way.  Isn't that what the subject is supposed to be use for?  You object to my putting a reasonable title in the post?  Pfft to that.

For those who choose to engage in the use of anonymous sources the use of the word "evidence" in this case is completely appropriate.  It isn't even hyperbolic.  So objecting to my describing the content of the post in a factually accurate way is just silly on your part.

The use of the phrase "big fat liar" is hyperbolic but that's my meme in this thread, and that meme is in no way dependent on this anonymous source in any way.

 

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Okay...

...well then, please explain to me what distinguishes you from us common people who occasionally use anonymous sources as evidence for some point we want to make.  Cuz I don't see any difference whatsoever.

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Really?

Where's the disclaimers on your posts stating, in effect, "Hey I don't believe in using anonymous sources but for those of you who do here's something pertinent to the discussion?"

I'm being even handed in pointing out that anonymous sources are not credible in my posts as well as in response to others, so why do you have your nose so out of joint over it.

 

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Meh

You're the anonymous source Nazi*, not me.  I have no need for such a disclaimer.

My nose is squarely in joint by the way. 

 

*except when an anonymous source supports your prejudged notions.  Then, the anonymous source is 'evidence'.

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Sure ...

You're the anonymous source Nazi*, not me.  I have no need for such a disclaimer.

Fine, but you asked me how I was being any different than you.  Ignoring your Reductio ad Hitlerum characterization here for the sake of discussion, I believe you have hit on the difference between us ... and have thus answered your own question as to how we differ.

Then, the anonymous source is 'evidence'.

Well, the anonymous source IS evidence to anyone who accepts anonymous sources.  Why should I be handicapped when dealing with people who accept anonymous sources?  If they want to use such sources in their arguments they should be willing to accept my dealing with them on their own terms, no?

So even though I don't believe anonymous sources are credible, or at the very least should be taken with a suitably sized grain of salt, there's nothing at all inconsistent with my pointing them out as evidence for people who accept such forms of evidence is there?  Especially when I clearly highlight that I am doing so.

For all those who wish to ignore anonymous sources, I have clearly highlighted that this item is based on an anonymous source and so they can safely disregard it (just as I would and have done).  For all those who don't mind relying on anonymous sources it seems like fair game to point this item out as "evidence" which is the term they would use for it in their own arguments.

Why do you object to my pointing out when anonymous sources are being relied upon as long as I openly do so in both my posts and those of my opponents?

 

UPDATE:

Your whole argument seems to be revolving around the fact that I used the word evidence in my subject line.  If I had instead used derisive quotations around it (i.e. as "evidence") would that have satisfied whatever nuance it is I have tweaked here?  Had I actually thought of it at the time I probably would have done so, I just didn't realize that this was going to turn into some hypersensitivity issue.

 

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A Harsh Reaction

Paul Mirengoff of Powerline Blog predicts a steep decline of the Catholic Church 

 I was quite surprised how harsh the reaction was to what Paul perceived as Obama's efforts to undermine authoritarian rule of the Catholic Church. 

  Talk about your zero tolerance. Wow!

  I expect Powerline blog to be consistently hard right, but in this case I was astonished how harsh a criticism was leveled at the President and the University, in an effort to appease the authoritarian structure of the Catholic Church.

I would be curious what other's think about his, Paul's, critique. 

if you have the time to read it, here is the link.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/05/023584.php

  Obama hopes to drive a wedge between the leaders of the Catholic Church and rank-and-file Catholics in order to substantially reduce Church leaders and their teachings as a moral force in the United States. Such a reduction, in turn, will remove a barrier to Obama's left-wing agenda, especially his left-wing social agenda, just as the steep decline in the authority of Catholic Church paved the way the leftist agenda in certain European countries.

 

Huh!? 

  It is entirely reasonable and proper for him to seek to undermine Catholic authority, in furtherance of his interests, through lawful activitiy such as giving a speech and accepting a degree. Nearly all of the blame surely lies with Notre Dame for partnering with Obama in his mission, and thereby violating the command of the U.S. Catholic Biships not to honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles.

 

 Following Christ means opening your heart, helping the poor, reaching out a hand to others, and does not have much in common with free market principles. Liberal Christians, Liberals Jews, fair words, and kind acts are just too much to bear hearing. Again Wow! 

 Following the teachings of Christ is a left wing agenda, potentially leading America down the path to hell, according to Paul. 

 Say a prayer Paul, it will be okay. And for those of you who missed it the President was very well received. Salt on Paul's wounds apparently.

…………

I don't read Powerline

Does Paul tend to always go overboard like that?   His interpretation of events and motivations is extreme, IMHO.

I can understand the kerfuffle and have scanned a few of the offical statements from the bishops who opposed this.   Most seem to be along the lines of what Notre Dame's bishop said

Bishop D'Arcy wrote that his decision to boycott the event is "not an attack on anyone, but is in defense of the truth about human life."

"President Obama has recently reaffirmed, and has now placed in public policy, his long-stated unwillingness to hold human life as sacred," said the bishop, apparently referencing the president's recent decision to allow federal funding of embryonic stem cell research. "While claiming to separate politics from science, he has in fact separated science from ethics and has brought the American government, for the first time in history, into supporting direct destruction of innocent human life."

"Even as I continue to ponder in prayer these events, which many have found shocking, so must Notre Dame," wrote the bishop.  "Indeed, as a Catholic University, Notre Dame must ask itself, if by this decision it has chosen prestige over truth."

D'Arcy also explained that while he has "always revered the Office of the Presidency," and means no disrespect to the president, "a bishop must teach the Catholic faith 'in season and out of season,' and he teaches not only by his words — but by his actions."

Reflecting on a U.S. bishops' statement that stipulates that Catholic institutions should not honor pro-abortion politicians, Bishop D'Arcy wrote: "Indeed, the measure of any Catholic institution is not only what it stands for, but also what it will not stand for."

What has always bothered me about this stance, though, is that is myopic: it reduces the sum of any politican to a single issue and a single right answer to that issue.   While I don't expect a bishop to condone abortion, I do expect a learned Catholic to be able to understand nuance and complexity.   Just like I expect a learned politican to demonstrate the same.  Maybe our short-attention-span media-driven society is partly to blame.  We favor short, simple answers to complex questions.

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This has always intrigued me

....I am more pro choice myself but...

If one is a Catholic, and believes abortion is a kin to murder, how would you expect someone to act?

The normal reaction to murder is terror, hysteria, and a frenzied reaction, right?

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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There seems to be three categories of reaction

specifically to the Notre Dame situation.

First, the bishops, who for the most part seem to focus on the fact that Notre Dame was in violation of the Conference directive for religious institutions not to give a platform or accolades to pro-abortion types.  I forget the exact wording of the 2004? directive. 

Second, the students....well, ardent and principled youth sees the world in black and white, sometimes.

Third, the media.  Anything to sell a paper.

And your question reduces the issue to a level of simplicity that I've already rejected as inappropriate for the issue.  From a political or civics point of view, abortion is allowed by law and appears not to be under threat.   Therefore, any stance one takes against it is either driven by a strong desire to change the law (the minority position, IMHO, as evidenced by the inability of most abortion foes to specify the appropriate punishment for a woman who might violate such a law) or by the need to demonstrate righteousness.

I don't intend that to be demeaning to those who feel strongly, but that's just how I see it.

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A philosophical response

If one is a Catholic, and believes abortion is a kin to murder, how would you expect someone to act?

As a Catholic, I'd expect them to pray :-)

 

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That's the best answer

 yet!

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I think he may exagerate the

I think he may exagerate the authority the Catholic church has in America anyway. My impression is that there's plenty of Catholics that don't care much more for what the Vatican says than what us Protestants do. And there's plenty of support for life in America without any overly hierarchial church structures.

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That's what I found most

 interesting, personally.

 That Paul perceived this to be an attack on the order and structure of the moral authority of the Catholic church. I find his opinion bizarre, but maybe I don't know that much about the Catholic Orthodoxy.  He is blaming demise of the European Catholic Church and the decline of Europe on liberal attitudes and a lack of respect for moral authoritarianism. These are the folks that think any concession is appeasement, and any compromise is surrender.

 

 

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And in this case

The Vatican has been silent.  Tis only a portion of the US bishops who are squawking about this.

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There were many beaming

 Catholics in the background, listening to Obama speak. He was warmly received by the crowd.

I only saw one grumpy guy in a frock that never smiled and didn't clap once. :)

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As I said before, however,

 Obama seemed to backpeddle on his pro-choice position, which is what made a lot of the Notre Dame Academy alumni happy.

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Like him or hate him - Rush nails the R predicament w/ Sotomayer

Forgive the long quote, but it is so spot on IMO;

Do you think we should go to the mat stopping Sotomayor? Do you think we oughta go to the wall to oppose her? And I said absolutely we should. Once again, an opportunity to draw the distinct contrast that exists today between conservatives and those in the Republican Party to President Obama. I doubt that Sotomayor can be stopped. She should be. She is a horrible pick, she is the antithesis of a judge by her own admission and in her own words. She has been overturned 80 percent by the Supreme Court, she may as well be on the Ninth Circus Court of Appeals given all the time she's overturned. She has been reprimanded by a truly strong Hispanic judge, Jose Cabranes, she has been rebuked in writing by Cabranes for opinions that she wrote that had no bearing on the constitutional issues before her in the case that was being decided.

But here is why -- even though she may not be able to be stopped -- here is why Sonia Sotomayor needs to be opposed by the Republicans as far as they can take it. Because the American people need to know who Barack Obama really is and his choice of Sonia Sotomayor tells everybody, if we will tell the story of her, who he is. He got up in his announcement and said everything about her that isn't true: that she's great constitutionalist, that she doesn't use personal opinion, that she understands what her role is and the oath is of a Supreme Court justice. She has done just the opposite of that. She is a hack like he is a hack in the sense that the court is a place to be used to make policy, not to adjudicate cases, not to adjudicate constitutional law but to make policy. She's even admitted it.

She is the embodiment of the criticism of a judge or a justice who is all wrong for the highest court in the land. So of course the Republican Party should go to the mat on this because in the process of doing so, the American people will find out more about Barack Obama and who he really is, what he really believes in, and her choice -- this choice -- helps to tell the real story of Barack Obama. This is a debate worth having .

This is why this is actually a good choice in terms -- I mean, do I want her to fail? Yeah. Do I want her to fail to get on the court? Yeah, she'd be a disaster on the court. Do I still want Obama to fail as president? Yeah - AP, you gettin' this? He's gonna fail anyway but the sooner the better so as little damage can be done to the country.

So, here you have a racist. You might want to soften that and you might wanna say a reverse racist. And the libs, of course, say that minorities cannot be racists because they don't have the power to implement their racism. Well, those days are gone because reverse racists certainly do have the power to implement their power. Obama is the greatest living example of a reverse racist and now he's appointed one -- getting this, AP? -- Sonia Sotomayor to the U.S. Supreme Court ...

So she's not the brain that they're portraying her to be, she's not a constitutional jurist. She is an affirmative action case extraordinaire and she has put down white men in favor of Latina women. She has claimed that the court is all about making policy. So yes, there's a golden opportunity. Take this to the mat. Take it to the wall. The people need to know what Obama really believes in and this is how it could happen. Now will the Republicans do it? That's another question.

H/T - MH

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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I LOL'd

Rush Limbaugh calling someone a racist?  That's fresh.

This tidbit really got me:

So of course the Republican Party should go to the mat on this because in the process of doing so, the American people will find out more about Barack Obama and who he really is, what he really believes in, and her choice -- this choice -- helps to tell the real story of Barack Obama. This is a debate worth having .

Limbaugh implies here that the American people were actually hoodwinked and didn't know what they were voting for in Obama.  So far, I think the only hoodwinking was done by Obama to the liberals.  He's governed a lot closer to the center than they'd hoped.

Rush needs to realize that Obama voters voted for higher taxes, a more humble foreign policy, economic interventionism, etc.  These are issues he put front and center in his campaign.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Maybe you're just a little rusty?

Rush needs to realize that Obama voters voted for higher taxes, a more humble foreign policy, economic interventionism, etc.  These are issues he put front and center in his campaign.

No, actually Obama ran on a tax cut for 95% of the American people. Even though that included people who pay no federal income tax.

His humble foreign policy has completely failed, Iran, North Korea, Isreal, Pakistan, etc. So much for that idea.

Economic interventionism, please show me where Obama ran on that. This too has hurt him way more than it has helped. And now he is trying to get the creditors in GM to take 10% while he gives the UAW 40% and the government gets 50%! (Rough numbers)

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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That's an extremely shallow

 analysis.

 If you want to deal in a deeper way with the Sotomayor's judicial philosophy, I recommend not taking snippets out of a long sentence and trying to fit them into sound bytes for Rush Limbaugh's audience. 

 The descriptive word could just as easily have been poor woman, or priveleged woman, or just woman, but because she described herself accurately, and gave a true statement, it's all about race? If I described myself as a white woman who gets angry at times with white men, does that mean I am a racist?

 Is Rush saying she hasn't earned her position? That she didn't do well at Yale? That she got poor grades? That she doesn't work hard. That she is not a woman? That she isn't a Latina? Wouldn't you think all of those descriptions would color your views?

 It's strange how when Clarence Thomas tells his story it is viewed by conservatives as relevant to his judicial thinking. Wouldn't the same apply here?

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