Happy Memorial Day! Holiday weekend open thread

Just spinning through the news this morning but not finding much of substance.  So, here are a few things that caught my eye.

The wheels of justice turn, as they should; we might all do better at remembering that before we get all incensed by lawlessness.  The US soldier who raped the 14 year old Iraqi girl and then killed her and her family has been tried and sentenced .

The melting pot moves inland .  Whites become the minority in a Kansas county.  Welcome to the true face of diversity.  It rocks!  I've visited whitebread America, and I know you're kinda antsy about it, but truly, it is a marvellous thing.

Some local news.   A local entrepreneur's warehouse goes up in flames last night.   Since he prides himself on "next day delivery" that fire destroyed his entire stock.   He's a great example of someone who has not only succeeded but has always given back to the community.   People who have lost everything in fires, Katrina evacuees, and too many others to count have gotten free furniture from this man over the years.   Not all businessmen are evil bastards out to enslave employees and rob communities.

And finally, for the grill.  This is AWESOME .  If you're wondering what to BBQ this weekend, this might be it ;-)

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Strong bipartisan support

 was brought to bear on a bill the President signed today to limit abuse and fraud in defense spending.

Robert Gates defends closing Gitmo, because it has taint. (You all do know that Gitmo is funded by tax payer dollars right.)

 Jack McCain will make the fourth generation of Naval Academy graduates in the McCain family. President Obama will be giving the graduation address.

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Hmm....interesting Open Thread all around.

Glad that the soldier who raped the 14-year-old Iraqi girl was prosecuted.  This is something that was long, long overdue, imho.

Sorry to hear about the guy's business going up in flames like that.  Hope he rebuilds soon.

That B-BQ recipe sounds interesting!

 

Oh, and last night, my alltime favorite film, West Side Story, aired on the TCM (Turner Classic Movies) Channel, and, as always, I watched it.  WSS, as I've stated mucho times before here on SwordsCrossed, is a great, golden oldie-but-goody movie/musical classic.  Although nothing beats seeing this great movie classic on the great big, wide screen, in a real movie theatre with the lights down low,  WSS is great on TV, DVD or video, also.

There's a revival of WSS happening on Broadway right now, which, unfortunately, with relatively rare exceptions, did NOT exactly get rave reviews.  C'est dommage.  Anyway, there's always the wonderful movie version of WSS.

 

 

 

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Bacon explosion? Oh my...

It looks good, but...

...I think I'll stick to some crab for starters, with a few mohito's or margarita's, maybe some homemade guacamole and humus on pita, and finish things off later with a nice bottle of wine or some cold beers and a thick Rib Eye with homegrown asparagus and corn on the cob.

Ya, that's the ticket.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Or some CiCi's BBQ pizza...

Or some CiCi's BBQ pizza...

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Brutus14

You don't mean CiCi's here in Charleston do ya?

Are you a Southerner? I just passed a CiCi's in Mount Pleasant today and damn near stopped when I thought of this post. ;-)

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Sonic is

I have a brother that has lived near Charlotte for a little while now.
There also seems to be one in any Ohio town over 20k.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Man that bacon/sausage bbq loaf looks so good but heart attack

madness.

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I hear you there, kindness.

n/t 

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It's meant to be shared

One slice won't kill you....eating the whole thing, however, might not be such a good idea.

 

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I exist

And might now have time to be back full-time.

You can thank Brutus for dragging me back :-).

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Thanks Brutus!

And glad to see you back, Stiney! :)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Yeah!

 Hopefully this means you exist with some degree of happiness and comfort!

  (Thx to Brutus)

 

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Depends on how you look at it

My wisdom teeth were removed on the 15th, and I'm still not completely recovered.

Otherwise, I'm with job and doing well paying off the student debts.  I suppose I can't ask for much more.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Good news.....

 I am thrilled you are with job and also happy that you are without bad teeth.

 I have been wondering how you were doing. I hope the job is not the dreaded 'yellow knife'.

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Oh, yellowknife

Yellowknife refers to the city in Canada.  It is my personal "42" and where I would go to die in a perfect world.

The job pays well and has that laid-back, small business feel.  I will enjoy it, I'm sure.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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don't post while on percocet!

Hey, good to hear from you (not that I spend much time here recently). I hope your mouth feels better soon.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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I "fell off the wagon"

I took a single percocet on that Friday because I couldn't sleep...and promptly upchucked it a few hours later.

I don't take any pain medication for philosophical/moral reasons.  It seems my body knew what was best for me.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Next time

 just cut it in half, or even a quarter, instead of taking the whole thing. It will take the edge off the pain without making you sick. (I broke my shoulder and would have had a rough time making it through, the painful healing process, without pain pills. I could never take a whole one. Although I did the first day and I felt like even though the world was a mess, it was at it's exact cosmically correct location at that moment in time. ;-)

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Welcome back!

Hope you feel better soon.

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Stiney, thought I saw you at Chipotle's a few weeks back

'twasnt you though... I called out to the guy and got a blank stare in return... I'm pretty bad at remembering faces accurately. 

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Wasn't me then

Which one was it?  I used to frequent the one off Sawmill when I worked over that way.  Lately, I've taken to the one off Dublin-Granville.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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It was the Dublin-Granville one...

Or, "161" if you don't want to be pegged as a Columbus newbie ;-)

It made sense to me that you'd go to that one, being close to your pad and all...

 

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I've been there twice

I know you live relatively close, but didn't know if that one was in your range.

Are they ever going to time up those lights properly?  I swear I get stopped at every light both to and from work.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Mancow gets waterboarded

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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This was the

  it was a featured story on my local news channel last night!

  What other conservative that thinks water boarding is just a little swim in the pool, is willing to test the theory, of whether water boarding is or is not torture.

 Volunteers?

 

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Obama snubs kindergarteners so he can smooze with Steelers!

Incredible and yet not at all surprising.  That's sad.

They plan a year in advance for a trip, each student pays $20 to go, and Obama simply tells them "Sorry, you're too late.  Now go away."  Obama can't even run tours for kindergarteners properly?  Geeze Louise, we really ARE in trouble here... 

 

View more news videos at: http://www.nbcwashington.com/video .

 

What does it say about Obama when he gives the boot to 150 five and six year olds for being 10 minutes late so he can spend more time with the Steelers?  Doesn't Obama care at all about the kids?

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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It says that he has a tight calendar...

...and a lot of demands on his time.

Poor planning on the part of whoever's responsibility it was to get the kids to the White House for the tour, IMO.  Traffic delays are hardly unusual in Washington, so they should have left themselves an adequate time cushion.

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It says he can't be bothered with five and six year olds.

It's a matter of priorities.  I guess for Obama smoozing with the Steelers is more important than inspiring the youth of America ... or even treating them with a little respect.  They were only 10 minutes late for goodness sake.

so they should have left themselves an adequate time cushion.

And how do you know that they didn't make a reasonable attempt to do so?  Perhaps the traffic was worse than anyone could have reasonably anticipated?  I think Obama could have trimmed a half hour off the Steeler smoozing session and still accomodated the kids.  Instead he threw them under their own chartered bus!

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Well then

I'd say that this is evidence that your previous accusations that Obama is a pedophile was rather incorrect, if he'd rather spend time with the Steelers than a bunch of five and six year olds.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Heh.

I'm not sure if his wanting to be surrounded by big burly men is am improvement, but hey, whatever floats his boat.  :P

But on the other hand ... this DOES suggest an alternate reason that the staff person came out and suddenly canceled the tour.  Maybe there was just a little too much excitement on Obama's part behind the scenes, if you know what I mean, and so the staff hurriedly cancelled the entire event.  Hmmm.

 

Meta: This post is not a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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House Democrats vote to help Pelosi cover up her lies ...

House Dems block investigation of Pelosi CIA claims

Rep. Rob Bishop, R-Utah, offered the proposal, which seeks a bipartisan committee to investigate whether the CIA misled Congress, as Pelosi has claimed. The resolution, Bishop said, was intended only to "establish a process whereby the veracity of this particular issue can be identified."

Republicans have charged that Pelosi and other Democrats were briefed about the technique's use and did nothing. Pelosi has been forced to run defense and key Democrats have been coming to her aid in recent days, including House Appropriations Chairman David Obey.  ...

How typical.  House Democrats afraid of letting the truth come out.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Well, yes

Good to see you again.

From your article:

Bishop offered the amendment as the House considered how it would handle a bill funding the Federal Aviation Administration. Republicans booed as the resolution was ruled out of order. Bishop appealed the ruling and Democratic Majority Leader Steny Hoyer came to the floor and asked to table the appeal.

I think this amendment probably was out of order since it had nothing to do with the FAA.  I would have voted to table it as well.  However, if this was brought up in regular order, I'd vote for it.

If indeed Pelosi knew what was going on, I'd expect her to be impeached and removed from office as well as brought up on criminal charges.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Well, then good for you Stinerman ...

and welcome back!  :)

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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It is only the application of the law

There are several statutes and treaties that cover torture.  Under ordinary criminal law everyone who participated in the torture of suspects should be in prison.  If you want to go out to our treaty obligations, we have precedent for executing everyone from President Bush (including Cheney and Rumsfeld) all the way down to the person who brought the pitcher of water.  Of course, since I'm against the death penalty in all cases, I will settle for life sentences w/o parole.

Frankly, anyone who had knowledge of our actions and didn't bring it to the attention of someone should be sitting in a federal penitentiary.  Of course, that seems like it'd be most of Congress these days, but so be it.

Why someone should be congratulated for applying the law equally, regardless of partisan blinders, is beyond me.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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The truth won't out.

How typical.  House Democrats afraid of letting the truth come out.

This is not exactly a characteristic confined to House Democrats.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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LOL

Now where did I ever say anything that suggested it was confined to House Democrats?  But that doesn't mean that it can't be typical of them, does it?  :)

 

Meta: This post is not a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Back at ya

Where did I say anything that suggested that you said anything that suggested it was confined to House Democrats?

This could become an infinite loop, couldn't it? :)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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And for all you Dick Cheney fans out there ...

I found the following to be an interesting read ...

Dick Cheney: Washington trembles at the return of 'Darth Vader'

Dick Cheney was a formidable backroom operator during his eight years as vice-president in the Bush administration. Having abandoned his short-lived retirement in Wyoming, he is now leading the Republican charge against Obama from the front. Ewen MacAskill reports from Washington on the political resurrection of the last true believer of the neo-con years.

It makes the point that Dick is an unlikely character to step to the forefront but even in his short stint thus far he has done more to put both Obama and Pelosi on the defensive than anyone in quite some time.

He has Obama rolling completely over on Guantanamo and in so doing has him basically vindicating everything Bush and Cheney did.  The one exception is perhaps the use of enhanced interrogation techniques, but he may find himself on the ropes on that one as well before Cheney is done with him ... especially if Cheney gets those intelligence memos released to tell the whole story.

Again, the Democrats are afraid to let the truth out.  What are they afraid of.  The documents will either show that Cheney is lying, or that Obama is.  And Obama is the one blocking the release.  Hmmm.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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The whole story

At the absolute best (from the Cheney point of view), what "the whole story" will show is that the despicable torture techniques we used were occasionally effective in thwarting terrorist attacks. So sure, we can move the debate to "do the ends justify the means." I won't change my position if it comes to that. Sadly, I am afraid that many Americans would. And even more sadly, I believe that many Americans already think that way.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Depends on how much noise is cranked up

 The military is not into using torture at all. And we know that on Bush's watch the CIA techniques for interrogation were halted by those on the inside who vehemently opposed the OLC justifications for torture as shoddy legal reasoning.

 The military needs to stand up and speak out often, that these techniques are reprehensible and should not be employed.  John McCain isn't afraid to speak out. 

 The real effect of Cheney's  arm twisting tour is on some moderate Republicans who he is trying to persuade with his diatribe that 'if we don't use  torture we are all gonna die in a mushroom cloud' fear mongering campaign,  to buy his mafia  kool-aid again.

 What people forget is that those who are performing the torture also suffer adverse effects.

 Two former army interrogators discuss the reprucussion of using harsh techniques.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104378628&ps=cprs

 

 "A friend of mine trained with me as an interrogator and trained in Arabic with me. She was sent to Iraq and asked to use these harsh techniques in the interrogation booth in Tal Afar. She refused, twice. She was ultimately taken off of her post. She... she killed herself rather than use these techniques. We're asking our young servicemen and women to make a choice. To torture people or destroy themselves, and I don't think that's how we want to treat our service people."

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For Gordo, Diesel, Hatch Back, and Storm'in Norman

 "If our eyes grow dull, other hands slack, and other hearts cold in the solemn trust, ours shall keep it well as long as the light and warmth of life remain to us." - General Orders No.11, WASHINGTON, D.C., May 5, 1868, Headquarters, Grand Army of the Republic

"The solemn trust."

"Ours shall keep it well as long as the light and warmth of life remain in us."

The quote above is from the order establishing a day in May to gather and present flowers upon the graves of the Fallen.

In other words, it is our duty to remember those who gave all on Memorial Day.  The General Order continues:

Let us, then, at the time appointed gather around their sacred remains and garland the passionless mounds above them with the choicest flowers of spring-time; let us raise above them the dear old flag they saved from dishonor; let us in this solemn presence renew our pledges to aid and assist those whom they have left among us a sacred charge upon a nation's gratitude, the soldier's and sailor's widow and orphan.

As it was one hundred and forty one years ago, it is the same today.

Like many of you, I've lost friends.  One friend is too much to lose...

This weekend I remember you, as I do everyday. I love you guys. Godspeed gentlemen.

H/T BLACKFIVE

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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"I need a dump truck to unload my head."

 Happy Birthday Bob Dylan

 

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environmentalist capitalism

Time for a little rant...

The new greenhouse gas legislation (cap and trade) coming out of Congress seems to be as bad as I could have imagined. According to the Economist, 85% of the pollution permits will be given away to polluters. And these polluters don't include the workers or consumers who produce or demand the polluting activities -- the permits will largely go to the owners of the firms (especially electricity companies) whose facilities generate the pollution. Like much of what Congress does, this program has become another massive transfer of wealth from the general public to the plutocrats who own Congress.

(to their credit, I am happy with the current credit card regulations which seemed to work against the plutocrats. They just better not continue with this price control nonsense--15% cap on rates)

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Oh it's even better than that

Rural electrical co-ops, those nonprofit locally controlled electric companies that are the key suppliers for much of America's poorest are going to be hit hard.  They can't play "cap and trade" with the big guys -- they don't have the capital.   They'll either have to raise their rates considerably or fold and let the for-profit firms come in for some easy pickings.

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cap-n-trade: volitility?

They can't play "cap and trade" with the big guys -- they don't have the capital. 

What do you mean that "they can't play  ". Under ideal market models, the permits should have a price determined by supply and demand. Everyone will pay the same price for a permit, so electricity prices will increase by the same amount for everyone.

The only way that I could see this system favoring big companies is if the price of the permits is very volitile (as opposed to a tax, which would be perfectly predicable). In that situation, companies with little capital might not be able to meet operating costs if their production prices jump faster than they can raise rates.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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That is their expectation

With a limited number of permits in circulation, then the price of the permit will rise.   A carbon tax is their preferred alternative.

EDIT:  I trashed the letter I had gotten, but I found some online info when I got to the National Rural Electrical Cooperative Association website.  I'm pasting the entire text as it's so short

May 15, 2009 – “NRECA looks forward to reviewing the detailed legislative language released today by Chairman Waxman.  Based on reports we have heard about what the revised draft contains, NRECA believes the bill has improved over the discussion draft released in late March.  As I testified in April before the Energy and Commerce Committee, NRECA supports developing affordable, simple, and flexible climate change legislation.  However, the bill does not yet meet that test.

“We greatly appreciate all members of the Energy and Commerce Committee who have worked hard to improve the legislation, and we look forward to continuing to work with members of the House and Senate to further improve the bill and make it a piece of legislation that electric cooperatives can support.

“The renewable energy provisions have been improved significantly in the bill as have the efficiency provisions.   Including temporary free allowances in the bill is a step in the right direction to protecting electric cooperative consumers from unnecessarily increasing electricity bills, but the bill still leaves not-for-profit, consumer-owned cooperatives  exposed to an auction of emission allowances.  While the emission caps in the bill have been lowered somewhat, we believe they are still overly aggressive in the early years of the program and will need to be adjusted.”

 

 

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cap-n-trade is megalomania

I think that cap-n-trade is largely a political comprimise, but it also implies a certain megalomaniacal mentality that is absent from a carbon tax. The existance of a "cap" means that the government is trying to dictate exactly how much CO2 is released into the atmosphere -- it really leaves no space for regular people to say "but we really need to do this". It ignores the existence of tradeoffs; it ignores that there are costs and benefits to the processes that produce CO2.

On top of that it seems to make the system more complicated than necessary. It also seems to complement the OPEC monopoly since it makes it impossible for fossil fuel producers to increase the quantity sold by lowering their prices (however, OPEC members can probably under-price other oil producers if they want to) .

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Does it actually matter where we hold them?

Obama has been trying to make the argument that we need to close Gitmo because it has become a recruiting tool for the terrorists.  But when I actually think about the implications of that line of thinking we will simply be moving them to other locations.

From a terrorist recruiting perspective, does it really matter that we are holding them at Guantanamo Bay vs. in some Super-Max Prison somewhere?  Why would the would-be terrorists care whether they were being held in Cuba vs. Colorado?

Using his line of reasoning it seems that we should be just releasing them outright to appease the would-be terrorists rather than relocating the current detainees, right?  Otherwise in a couple of years we are going to just have to argue about whether we need to close the prisons too.

What am I missing here?

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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you're forgetting about ignorance

This is a standard propaganda technique -- make a "big' change that gets attention and looks good, but qualify it in subtle ways that mitigate it's real-world impact.

It relies on the fact that everyone (even the most informed among us) are largely unaware about what is going on in the world -- the world is just too big to keep track of everything. Then consider the Islamist sympathizers (who may contribute a few bucks now and then) and foot-soldiers. A portion of this group will be about as informed as the average American, meaning that they will only notice the big events and will not have information about the subtlty behind the event. For these people, Islamists could get them riled up (clash of civilizations!) by appealing to prisoner abuse at Guantanamo, but if these people are aware that the Gitmo prison has been closed, then they might not get riled up and even become suspicious that the Islamist propagandist is trying to mislead them.

Anyway, the real policy change is in regard to interrogation methods and the criteria for imprisonment. The problem with those changes as a propaganda tool is that they don't make any big, easy to identify change. Closing the Gitmo prison provides a propagandist's keystone with which to advertise those substantial changes.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Count me skeptical.

For these people, Islamists could get them riled up (clash of civilizations!) by appealing to prisoner abuse at Guantanamo, but if these people are aware that the Gitmo prison has been closed, then they might not get riled up and even become suspicious that the Islamist propagandist is trying to mislead them.

So when these Islamists come to them and say we are abusing Muslims at Guantanamo Bay they supposedly believe them, but after they hear that Gitmo has been closed and these same Islamists now tell them that we only moved the Muslims to a place called [Insert Name Here] and we are still abusing the detainees that now these people will be suspicious?

If this is the case let's just announce the Gitmo is closed and not change anything other than the name on the door.  It would save a whole lot of trouble.

Anyway, the real policy change is in regard to interrogation methods and the criteria for imprisonment.

What policy changes would those be?  They are still at Gitmo with the prospects of them actually being moved anywhere dwindling with every Congressional rejection to fund the closing.  Obama is still using Military Tribunals to try them.  Obama plans to hold some of them indefinitely without trial.  Where's this big policy change you speak of?

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Me as well

What policy changes would those be?

IIRC, Obama has changed a few of procedural rules pertaining to the trials.  No longer will evidence procured by torture be allowed into the record, among other things.  Forgive me as I can't recall where I read that.

Obama is still using Military Tribunals to try them.

I have no problem with that.

Obama plans to hold some of them indefinitely without trial.

I have a serious problem with that.  If this is indeed the case, Obama should be impeached and removed from office.  I charitably gave him time to transition and figure out what the situation on the ground was there before moving forward.  He's dragging his feet, and my patience has worn thin.  He'd better be getting around to trying these people or I'll be for his impeachment.

Where's this big policy change you speak of?

It is and was very obviously smooth talking to get the base on-board with his candidacy.  Now, as is always done when Democrats take high office, they ignore their base to appear "moderate" (what is the base going to do, vote for Nader?).  The sad thing here is that "moderate" is defined as splitting the difference between what actual moderates want and what the Republicans want.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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The policy change

 is huge. It is actually charging them with something, and allowing them access to lawyers who can use a real appeals process, instead of some sham kangaroo court.

 The 'military tribunals' held previously were a joke. There was a female neo-con judge, very much disliked by the jag lawyers,  who was blatantly prejudice, and refused to allow evidence except that which made the case for the prosecution. 

 The last category of 'preventive detention', is the biggest delima. The problem is that some of these detainees are 'known terrorists', yet the evidence against them was ill gotten, sloppy, or lost. This is a very muddy area legally.

 Think of Osama bin Laden as a 'known terrorist'. There are a few in Gitmo who fall into a grey area, that might not be able to be prosecuted because of sloppy evidence collection, yet it would be insane to let them out. Imagine the political implications of letting Osama bin Laden, free due to lack of evidence.

When you suggest that Obama is ignoring his base, the opposite is true.  The reason he gave this national security speech was for those on the left in  his base who have been most unhappy with his policy of going back to the military tribunals. They are screaming bloody murder that Obama has broken his word and and preventive detention is absolutely unacceptable. (I guess they want Kalid Sheik Muhammed released if he can't be charged. Which is insane, in my view.) The right is not the political thorn for Obama here, it is the hard left.

 IN his speech Obama spoke of absolutism on the left and the right. Those on the hard left who think that known terrorist detainees should be freed, because doing anything else violates a principle of civil liberties, are not too different from those on the hard right who see any form of birth control as murdering children.

There are shades of grey here, that can't be defined in absolutist terms.

 

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what about POW?

The laws of war allow for detention of enemy combatants, and I don't think that anyone has a problem with that. I don't know how that would be implemented given the nature of the enemy organization, but at least there is some sort of precedent.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

………… parent

That sounds reasonable

to me. I am not sure of all the legal technicalities involved, other than knowing this this is a big tar pit and a mess.

 btw, glad you have some time off for the holiday. I always enjoy reading your comments.  

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Not so much.

The policy change is huge. It is actually charging them with something, and allowing them access to lawyers who can use a real appeals process, instead of some sham kangaroo court.

Hmmm.  The last I heard Obama had shut off all action on these people until he could decide what to do.  There is talk of reviving the Military Tribunals with some relatively minor changes, IMHO, but as far as I know that process has not started yet.  So where are the facts to back up your position here?

If Obama detains anyone without trial, as you not only admit he plans to do but you also seem to support that position (i.e. "because it would be insane to release some of these guys"), so your fundamental claim above seems to be false on its face.

Obama clearly ran on a platform that the way Gitmo was being handled in terms of detention without trial, trial by Military Tribunal, etc. were all wrong and against American values.  Well, despite his continuing rhetoric to that effect he seems to be increasingly on a course to implement something that is almost identical to what Bush was doing.

Sure, he may make some changes in the fringes like what evidence is, or is not, allowed to be presented but I don't consider that to be a fundamental change ... especially when the changes he proposes are likely to create acquittals for the worst of the bunch.

Obama has been hit squarely between the eyes with the reality of the situation and so now we are seeing the effects of having reality rain down upon him.  He's retaining and resurrecting Bush policies left and right.  So while I find it hilarious that he is being forced to basically vindicate the Bush era policies, I'll be happy to let him hang himself in 2012 by implementing the things that the hard left are demanding ... because that means he is going to be forced to release KSM into a neighborhood near you and politically that would be suicide and we all know it.

He's definitely found himself in a pickle.

Personally I am not worried too much about it because it is becoming obvious that when the hard calls have to be made he is going to err on the side of vindicating Bush rather than releasing these Gitmo detainees like KSM onto American soil.

 

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I'm missing something

Personally I am not worried too much about it because it is becoming obvious that when the hard calls have to be made he is going to err on the side of vindicating Bush rather than releasing these Gitmo detainees like KSM onto American soil.

If some accused terrorists are not able to be prosecuted because they were tortured, I don't understand why we'd have to release them in the US.  Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, for instance, is a Kuwaiti national.  We can send him back home.  Furthermore, he is wanted by the Indonesian authorities for other acts of terrorism.

Perhaps someone could clear up why, if detainees are released, they must be released as free men in our country.  I mean, does he have a valid visa to be here or something? ;-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Khalid will be selling

ice cream to your children, according to the wingnuts.

 

………… parent

Not what I said, actually ...

I said that he would err on the side of vindicating Bush rather than release them here.  Right?  Is that not what I said?  So if Obama does that KSM will be staying right where he is now.

But if Obama caves to the hard left KSM will likely have to be released and from there who knows?  Has Obama indicated what he plans to do?  No.

Ironically we also won't send him to any place where he is likely to be tortured.  I mean really tortured, not like what we did to him.

 

<Mocking Tone>  Where's the exit plan for Gitmo?  Obama said he was going to close the place, so where's his plan?  What kind of an incompetent moron announces the closure without any plan for what to do with the detainees?  More evidence that Obama is a bumbling incompetent, and that he's none too bright either since that much should have been obvious.  Geeze Louise!  </Mocking Tone> :)

 

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Here's your mocking tone from Gen Petraeus's mouth

 Sweet Jesus how will you twist Gen Petraeus's word to attack Obama now?

 

Will Rush Limbaugh and the true conservatives savage Gen Petraeus mercilessly as 'soft on terror', because he believes ini *gasp* the Geneva Conventions *horrors*, and that closing Gitmo in a responsible manner will move take things forward with regard to how we treat detainees is the responsible thing to do?

In an appearance on Radio Free Europe  on Sunday, the man hailed by conservatives as the preeminent military figure of his generation left little room for doubt about where he stands on some of Obama's most contentious policies.

"RFE/RL: Well, thank you for coming here today, General Petraeus, to talk to Radio Free Europe.

Petraeus: Good to be with you, Jay.

RFE/RL: As you know, General, the debate over Guantanamo and enhanced interrogation techniques has become "Topic A" in Washington. In your view, does the closing of "Gitmo" and the abandonment of those techniques complicate the U.S. mission in Iraq, Afghanistan, and in the overall struggle against violent transnational extremist groups or does it help it?

Petraeus: I think, on balance, that those moves help it. In fact, I have long been on record as having testified and also in helping write doctrine for interrogation techniques that are completely in line with the Geneva Convention. And as a division commander in Iraq in the early days, we put out guidance very early on to make sure that our soldiers, in fact, knew that we needed to stay within those guidelines. 

With respect to Guantanamo, I think that the closure in a responsible manner, obviously one that is certainly being worked out now by the Department of Justice -- I talked to the attorney general the other day [and] they have a very intensive effort ongoing to determine, indeed, what to do with the detainees who are left, how to deal with them in a legal way, and if continued incarceration is necessary -- again, how to take that forward. 

But doing that in a responsible manner, I think, sends an important message to the world, as does the commitment of the United States to observe the Geneva Convention when it comes to the treatment of detainees."

………… parent

Meh.

I have no problem with his statements.  I completely agree with them.  I fully support them.  Why?  Because I contend that we have not violated the Geneva Conventions to begin with.  We can do nothing and still meet that burden.  But if closing Gitmo somehow sends a message to the rest of the world that reaffirms our ongoing commitment to honoring the Geneva Conventions, then I don't have a problem with that as long as we don't release the terrorists on US soil.

The problem with your attempt at a trap here is that you fail to understand our actual position.  From our perspective we haven't committed torture so we haven't violated the Geneva Conventions.  Period.  If putting on a show of closing Gitmo buys us some popularity on the world stage then fine.

 

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Then I trust that you understand

 That the DOJ is working intensely on how to deal with the detainees as Gen. Petreaus stated.

 Why would we have to reaffirm our commitment to the Geneva Conventions?

 I am not trying to put you in a trap. I am just highlighting what Gen. Petraeus said.

 Where as you, with your mocking tone, are putting the interests of your favorite game, poking sticks at Obama and democrats, first and the interests of your country second.

 When your only goal is not to look at the policy but to obstruct it merely because you hold a grudge against all democrats, it is sometimes hard to see the forest for the trees.

 I contend that if Obama had said the exact same thing you would be denigrating him mercilessly, claiming that Obama was trying to let terrorists go, so they could sell ice cream to children.

………… parent

Oh, yes. They are working diligently on this problem.

Is there any doubt?

Why would we have to reaffirm our commitment to the Geneva Conventions?

We don't have to.  Doing so won't change anything but if it smooths over mistaken impressions around the world as you seem to think it will, hey, why not reach out?  But your question suggests that you don't know the definition of the word reaffirm .

 

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Please ML, let us be clear, and differentiate

...between average Muslim insurgents one encounters on the battlefield, of whom the good General was referring, and Al Qaeda leadership, or even more so terror mastermind types like KSM.

Secondly, no one in their right mind, especially the top American General in the middle east, especially as he is embarking on a war in Afghanistan, is going to site publicly we should do anything outside the Geneva Convention ML.

Surprise, surprise.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

He was asked point blank about closing Gitmo

 He reaffirms that it is the responsible thing to do.

 This Republican talking point that there are going to be terrorists selling ice cream in the streets is absolutely ludicrous.

 Yes I do see a difference between insurgents and the leadership of al_Queda. It is possible that some of these al_Queda leaders are the ones in the 4th category, in a legal netherworld, of being 'known terrorists', yet with inadequate legal evidence to prosecute them with a specific crime. That is why Obama is stuck with the most distasteful task of possibly having to create a special limbo category for future prevention, for a few detainees.

As for the Geneva Conventions, John Yoo and David Addington wrote special legal briefs asserting that torture was within the legal bounds of the Geneva Convention. As GR says, he does not believe the Geneva Conventions were ever violated. 

………… parent

Time to grow up nd be a big girl ML

He reaffirms that it is the responsible thing to do.

Closing GITMO is fine with me, I would like to keep the real estate just to aggrivate the murdering dictator Castro brothers.

 This Republican talking point that there are going to be terrorists selling ice cream in the streets is absolutely ludicrous.

Why, it is very plausible. Taxi driver, 7-11 employee, lots of empathy in those sectors I suspect.

 Yes I do see a difference between insurgents and the leadership of al_Queda. It is possible that some of these al_Queda leaders are the ones in the 4th category, in a legal netherworld, of being 'known terrorists', yet with inadequate legal evidence to prosecute them with a specific crime. That is why Obama is stuck with the most distasteful task of possibly having to create a special limbo category for future prevention, for a few detainees.

Welcome to the real world ML, not the world of Brandenberg gates, pixie dust, and all those other lofty unthoughtout promises.

As for the Geneva Conventions, John Yoo and David Addington wrote special legal briefs asserting that torture was within the legal bounds of the Geneva Convention. As GR says, he does not believe the Geneva Conventions were ever violated.

I could give a rats ass about the geneva convention as it relates to terrorists.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

I will repeat

 for emphasis:

"I contend that if Obama had said the exact same thing that Gen Petreaus said, you would be denigrating him mercilessly, claiming that Obama was trying to let terrorists go, so they could sell ice cream to children."

 As for the Geneva Conventions, I don't why Gen. Petreaus keeps mentioning them during this interview,  as if they were important.

………… parent

I will answer

for redundancy:

You are WAY over playing what he said.

I don't know a soul who wouldn't close GITMO, if there was a more suitable arrangement. The fine General included.

As far as selling ice cream, which you have said 10 times if you've said it once, who cares, point is, we don't want them on the streets of our country, and the Obama administration has floated that idea.

For "people who can be released there are a variety of options that we have and among them is the possibility is that we would release them into this country," Mr. Holder said. "That process is ongoing and we've not made any determinations or made any requests of anybody at this point."

The General didn't go over board on Geneva either, he was talking torture, when that topic comes up, the word Geneva is never far behind.

Do yourself a favor, move on.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Why is it ludicrous?

You haven't said what you are planning to do with the people who are already cleared for release.  Are you planning to keep them locked up or something?

 

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Please...

 You ask as if, it was up to me. 

 As Gen Petreaus stated, in his interview, Eric Holder and the Department of Justice are working intensely on the legal questions involved in charging detainees, and how to deal with the whole situation.

Gen Petreaus is siding with Obama on the matter of responsibly closing Gitmo and dealing with the detainees. 

The General has more faith in our American system and the process involved in upholding the law and dealing with this complex issue  than you seem to.

 It's not up to me.

………… parent

Pfft. Dodging the question again.

The General has more faith in our American system and the process involved in upholding the law and dealing with this complex issue  than you seem to.

I said that I comepletely agree with the General so why are you trying to pretend that I haven't?  I have plenty of faith in the American system.  It's Obama and the liberal left that I am worried about.

So, since you have now introduced a whole new issue (i.e. your perosnal opinion), please answer the following:

  1. What does Obama plan to do with the people who have already been cleared for release if there are no other countries willing to take them?

  2. What do you perosnally think that we should do with the people who have already been cleared for release if there are no other countries willing to take them?

As Gen Petreaus stated, in his interview, Eric Holder and the Department of Justice are working intensely on the legal questions involved in charging detainees, and how to deal with the whole situation.

Yes, of course.  They have been working on this since before Obama even took office.  The end result thus far seems to be, well I guess Bush had it right all along.

 

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………… parent

Bush had what right?

exactly?

 And on the points that you say Bush had things right was he effective in implementing policy?

 I do remember Bush saying he wanted bin Laden dead or alive,  putting troops in Afghanistan, and then withdrawing troops from Afghanistan and relocating them to Iraq, where bin Laden was not born, did not  reside, and not one time  referred to Iraq as his homeland.

 I do remember local Iraqi's being rounded up off the streets by US soldiers and housed in Saddam Hussein's favorite prison Abu Ghruiab, and being detained and brutalized under guidance from then President Bush.

 Is that what you mean when you say Bush was right on  changing his policy, reversing the original decision to brutalize prisoners in both Abu Ghruiab and Gitmo?

………… parent

Haven't you been following the news?

Bush had what right? exactly?

1) The Democrat Congress pretty much told Obama to jump in a lake w.r.t. closing Gitmo.

Result: Bush is vindicated on setting up Gitmo.

 

2) Obama's advisers are now saying that Military Tribunals are the way to address these detainees, legally speaking.

Result: Bush is vindicated on using Military Tribunals to try the detainees.

 

3) Obama's advisers are now saying that some of the detainees will be held indefinitely without trial.

Result: Bush is vindicated on holding some detainees indefinitely without trial.

 

4) Obama has been actively using the DOJ to protect the terrorist wiretapping program and has not issued any statement to the effect that the program has been discontinued.

Result: Bush is vindicated on the use of wiretaps to fight terrorists.

 

5) Obama has reserved for himself the right to use these same enhanced interrogation techniques in emergency situations. *

Result: Bush is vindicated on the use of Enhanced Interrogation Techniques after 9/11.

 

These were some of the biggest issues on the Democrat agenda, and one by one they are coming back to the Bush policies, or some variant thereof, as the way to go.  I fully expect more such cases to arise in the coming months as well.  You might want to keep up to date on these topics as Obama is reversing himself left and right almost every day.

------------------------------------------------

* See the conclusions of some notable left wingers ... here , and here , and here .

 

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Middle ground fallacy

The idea that if a policy is embraced by both a Democratic and Republican administration, it does not follow that the policy is advisable, legal, or anything.  Obama isn't vindicating Bush, he's digging his own grave.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Sorry, but from a pragmatic point of view, ...

he is being vindicated.  Obama is only digging his own grave if someone is going to actually pursue both him and Bush.  Who's going to do that if neither the Republicans or the Democrats can muster the gonads?  No, in any practical sense of the term Bush is being vindicated.

He is also being vindicated in the intellectual sense as well.  Obama was good at talking smack during the campaign when he had nothing to lose, but now he has to really address the realities of  the situation just like Bush did.  And now that the Democrats are up to bat with the same issues they are, essentially, caving and falling back on the Bush era policies, or variants thereof.  Given that these great thinkers of the world can't come up with anything significantly better, I'd say that mean Bush is vindicated in having identified and implemented that best over-all options on each of these points.

 

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He was dealt a poor hand

Obama was.  If there was no torture, there'd be no problem.  Since there was (your definition of torture notwithstanding), Obama has to choose between releasing some people who in all likelihood are terrorists and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and embracing the idea that the executive has unlimited power to detain anyone he sees fit for any amount of time.

Obama is a coward.  He wants to have it both ways, just like everything else on his agenda.  He knows what he is doing is morally and legally wrong, but he is playing CYA since he's a politician.  Politicians with bullet-proof ethics don't exist, which is really a shame.

There are certain things we just don't do because we're civilized (or at least I thought we were).  One of them is torture people.  Another is detain people without trial (be it civilian, military, or otherwise).  Never, under any circumstances is either one permissible.

Taking the extreme example of KSM, I think we can all agree we don't need any of the evidence procured by his waterboarding to find him guilty of terrorism.  We've got more than enough on which to hang him.  Some of them, probably not.  They'll have to be deported: that's the only remedy we have under the law to deal with them.

And I'm in the blue, so the last word is yours.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Are you calling

Bush a coward?

=) 

………… parent

vindicated is the wrong word

 The word you are looking for is stuck. 

  Obama has been stuck with the legal and political quagmires and traps that  Bush left behind. 

   

 

………… parent

Even if I accept your obviously biased premise ...

how Obama found himself in his current position is not relevant.  That once he was there he came to the same conclusions as Bush on how to move forward in these areas is relevant, and it is on this point that Bush is being vindicated.

And Obama is not the only one that was "stuck".  Bush was "stuck" with 9/11 and its aftermath just as much as Obama is now.  That is, of course, unless you are one of those conspiracy theorists that believes 9/11 was an inside job.  Are you?  :)

 

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………… parent

vindication is the wrong word

the correct word is stuck.

 

 

………… parent

Actually, both are correct as I have just shown.

 

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………… parent

Why don't you believe

 in America? You don't think Americans are capable of handling this?

 Unlike Bush, Obama wants Americans to participate in the process and the dialogue that surrounds closing Gitmo.

 You set priorities, such as closing Gitmo, or landing on the moon. Then you put smart people to work at the job of how to accomplish your goals.

I don't recall JFK having a detailed rocket design, before he stated that America wanted to put a man on the moon.

 As noted below, Gen. Petraeus has already spoken to the Justice Department on the best way to move forward with closing Gitmo and how to deal with the detainees 

………… parent

Who says I don't think we can keep them locked up ...

on US soil, if we want to?  I have faith in our prisons to be able to keep them locked up if that's where they actually end up.

But your question completely misses the point.  Obama has promised to close Gitmo AND stop the Military Tribunals AND give these people all the same rights as an American citizen AND access to the US Courts.  Once he has the detainees here if he then caves to the hard left the scenario I am describing is what will play out.

We're playing Chess here, ML, not Tiddlywinks.  You have to think several moves ahead and put up defenses where needed to prevent bad things from coming your way.

 

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………… parent

Umm, no on else is willing to take him (and others) ...

so if we are going to release him, where else?  Are you suggesting we drop him off in some unsuspecting country like a stray dog?

If we can find others to take him that is an option, of course, I don't mean to imply that it is not. But we already know that we have many others who are less dangerous than KSM that no one is willing to take so why would any one be willing to take him?

In any event, KSM was merely used as a recognizable example.  He is not the only one to which this discussion applies.

 

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http://in.reuters.com/article

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-39862420090525
"Italy [claims to be] willing to take Guantanamo inmates - Berlusconi"

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

as does Montana

There is a Super Max prison in Florence Colorado, also.

 Why don't American conservatives have faith that America can handle the job? Sad. 

………… parent

Sure, as long as the others are willing to take some too.

Italy willing to take Guantanamo inmates - Berlusconi

"We will have to see what the majority of other European countries do. If we can do a favour for the American people, for the American government, we will certainly do it," Berlusconi said in an interview with CNN International.

This isn't a wholly unconditional offer, but still it's something.  To keep this in perspective, it sounds like they are saying if other European countries agree to do us a favor, well then sign up Italy too!  Hmm, perhaps not yet the breakthrough we all might be hoping for here.

 

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………… parent

Yes

Are you suggesting we drop him off in some unsuspecting country like a stray dog?

Absolutely.  Well, no.  I suggest we drop him off in the country where he has citizenship.  Call ahead and let Kuwait know we're coming.  We deport illegal immigrants every day back to their country of origin.  Why do people at Gitmo not count?

But we already know that we have many others who are less dangerous than KSM that no one is willing to take so why would any one be willing to take him?

If no one is "willing to take him" put him in a plane, outfit him with a parachute and push him out the plane door.  This is not rocket science.  Yes, I am serious.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

I agree with Stinerman

...always have, I am sorry if China wants to kill you when you get back, should have thought of that before you booked your vaction to Pakistan.

As for KSM, convict and kill that ______ ______.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Obama Saving Or Creating Jobs - Is Just Not Reality

The House Republicans have put together some data your local mainstream media outlet probably will shy away from discussing.

Today, Barack Obama told the public, “In these last few months, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act has saved or created nearly 100 — 150,000 jobs”?

But that’s just not true. 16,000 jobs have been lost every single day since Barry’s stimulus plan was passed.

At some point the media cannot ignore Barack Obama and the Democrats killing the American private sector economy while claiming to “save or create” American jobs.

And note to the Democrats: creating government paper pushers is not the same as creating or saving private sector jobs. That is the Democrat rebuttal — they created government jobs.

Only the Democrats think more bureaucrats will save America.

joblosses.jpg

 

H/T

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

…………

unemployment numbers are dropping ("GOP lying with stats")

From the Dept of Labor :

The advance unadjusted insured unemployment rate was 4.6 percent during the week ending May 9, unchanged from the prior week. The advance unadjusted number for persons claiming UI benefits in state programs totaled 6,189,434, a decrease of 2,110 from the preceding week. (emphasis mine)

It seems that the GOP is using the seasonally adjusted stats:

The advance number for seasonally adjusted insured unemployment during the week ending May 9 was 6,662,000, an increase of 75,000 from the preceding week's revised level of 6,587,000. The 4-week moving average was 6,480,500, an increase of 131,000 from the preceding week's revised average of 6,349,500. (emphasis in original)

That's reasonable in itself, but they should have said so. Since they misidentified the statistic that they are using (and undoubtedly chose that statistic simply because it looked better), the GOP is lying .

Even if we look at the seasonally adjusted numbers, we see that Obama has some basis for his claim -- jobs aren't being lost as quickly as they were a few months ago:

In the week ending May 16, the advance figure for seasonally adjusted initial claims was 631,000, a decrease of 12,000 from the previous week's revised figure of 643,000. The 4-week moving average was 628,500, a decrease of 3,500 from the previous week's revised average of 632,000.

Finally, we should note that these stats are for unemployment insurance; they are not pure unemployment numbers. If I recall correctly, the stimulus bill extended the length of time that a person could stay on unemployment, so some of this increase may come from the fact that unemployed workers are not being turned away.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

………… parent

lol, come on Adam, 1st, why would you use the unadjusted number?

...2nd, the GOP is not lying, the numbers are there, in black and white, as you linked to them.
3rd, when you make the claim;
Even if we look at the seasonally adjusted numbers, we see that Obama has some basis for his claim...
And attempt to justify it with;

In the week ending May 16, the advance figure for seasonally adjusted initial claims was 631,000, a decrease of 12,000 from the previous week's revised figure of 643,000. The 4-week moving average was 628,500, a decrease of 3,500 from the previous week's revised average of 632,000.

You fail.
But that is the lest of you failures.
When you then try desperately to rationalize way Obamas lie with;

Finally, we should note that these stats are for unemployment insurance; they are not pure unemployment numbers.

So?

If I recall correctly, the stimulus bill extended the length of time that a person could stay on unemployment...

Ya, so?

...so some of this increase may come from the fact that unemployed workers are not being turned away.

But they're still unemployed Adam. whether they re collecting unemployment or not.
Obviously there are more unemployed than are on UI at any given time.
 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Still waiting for Mark Sanford to

 create some jobs in So. Carolina.

 The unemployment rate for SC was the second highest in the nation and hit a record state high for of 11.5%.

 Why isn't Mark Sanford creating more better business opportunities for his state.

………… parent

Umm ML. The national avg is 9%, so...

...the real question is;

...with Michigan, Oregon, Rhode Island, California, North Carolina, (takes a breath) Nevada, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Illinios, Indiana, Kentucky, (another breath) Mississippi, Tennessee, Washington, the D of C, and Ohio (woosh) all being between 9% and 12% percent unemployment, and with very little exception the rest of the country following not far behind...

...what is wrong with this supposed "stimulus" you so desperately want Mark Sanford to accept, and when is it going to start creating some jobs for the people of this country?

LOL! ;-)

We could take the money and create a bunch of temporary jobs in the ever expanding unsustainable government bureaucracy, and reduce unemployment a point or two, but that would be stupid ML.

We may have 1% or2% unemployment + or - than most of the other states in the country, but we also don't have hundreds of millions in federal debt to pay back either.

Mark Sanford is the best Governor in the country!

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Yes we know Sanford is sticking to his guns

but you still haven't answered the question.

 Does he plan as the Gov of the State to attract business opportunities and jobs for So Carolina and put people to work?

 I know he is dead set against accepting any federal stimulus unless it is ear marked to pay off So. Carolina's state debt.

………… parent

You have confused me

We may have 1% or2% unemployment + or - than most of the other states in the country, but we also don't have hundreds of millions in federal debt to pay back either.

To whom, does "we" refer?

It was not my understanding that the people in Ohio have to pay back any federal assistance sent their way*.  Am I mistaken?  If I am, please correct me.  If not, then how is not taking the assistance decreasing the amount of debt you have to pay back?

*Of course, I mean debt that is over and above the debt that we have to pay in ordinary course of filing taxes every year, etc.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Oh Stiney...

Yes you have to repay it.

It will be amended in your 2009 taxes, if you got 400 bucks, and you get a refund, 400 bucks will be withheld from your refund, if you pay tax, your payment is added to your return.

Unless you declined it, or you are on SS and received a 250 dollar check.

It just gets more F___ed up all the time with Barack, huh?

Sorry to be the one to break it to ya bro... ;-)

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Got $400 for what?

I was out of the loop for awhile.

The last time I got cash money from the government was when Bush was President.

In any case, your comment implies that somehow Gov. Sanford's refusal of federal money means that you guys didn't get $400 checks.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Ok, hold on a sec, lol

I thought you were asking about what you got, and paying that back.

Unless you have not filed taxes, you should have got a check, unless it went to a dead person, which evidently many have.

Now the stimulus is a gargantuan thing, and different monies are allotted different ways, true enough, some are grants and tax breaks, but by and large the stimulus must be repaid by the states that receive it.

Don't you remember the naysayers accusing Mark Sanford of screwing us SC's because even if he didn't take the cash, the federal government was going to force SC to participate in it's repayment. lol.

That won't happen, but it sounds scary enough.

But yes, the Ohio treasury will be repaying the stimulus monies it accepted - with your money. ;-(

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Where are you getting this information?

...by and large the stimulus must be repaid by the states that receive it.

I know Mitch McConnell wanted to make the stimulus funding received by states into loans rather than grants , but I find it hard to believe that the idea gained any traction at all.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Perhaps...

Because I had $0 in federal tax liability in tax year 2008, I didn't receive $400.  I did receive the $300 from the original stimulus program in 2008 (most received $600).

And then again, perhaps you are talking about the reduction in taxes that have been withheld from my paycheck starting in March...

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Your right, 600.

And you will see that 300 taken out of you taxes, watch.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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I don't see how

Seeing as I already filed and completed my 2008 taxes, I don't see how they're going to take it back.

Can you provide links to actual public laws that provide for "taking back" the stimulus payments?  In any case, this sidebar isn't something I care to spend much more time on. 

And since I don't know you very well yet, I will take this time to let you know of my directness before I offend you.  I will often decide I don't want to continue a thread and say as much.  Do not mistake my directness for asshattery.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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No worries, I will find some info if you are interested. ;-)

If you determine where that money coming out of your check is going let me know...

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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The confusion comes

  because there were two 'rebates'.

 The first Bush 'rebate', was essentially an early tax return.

 The second  Bush 'rebate' is a stimulus check in 08 that counts only as income on your 09 taxes.

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we are not comparing equal measurements

But they're still unemployed Adam. whether they re collecting unemployment or not.
Obviously there are more unemployed than are on UI at any given time.

Are you trying to play the pity card now?

My point was that we may be measuring different things in March and May. For instance, in March we may be counting 50% of the unemployed population while in May we are counting 60% of the unemployed population. That makes a difference. Or do you come from the school that the "facts speak for themselves" and their presentation is not connected to any argument being made.

(I've heard that one around here before)

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Please clarify your meaning with respect to this then...

If I recall correctly, the stimulus bill extended the length of time that a person could stay on unemployment, so some of this increase may come from the fact that unemployed workers are not being turned away.

My point was that it doesn't matter if they extended UI or not, if they are receiving UI or not, for the benefit of our conversation, they are unemployed, period, bad sign for the economy, and just further evidence that Obma's employment claims are bogus.
 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Seasonality probably should

Seasonality probably should be included:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_variation

But stats and comparisons are nearly worthless when they go outside the ranges of past data.

I do like how the graph has a teeny tiny bar for 5 million and huge bar for 6.6 million.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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An even better idea

Quote the "unemployment rate" as the rate of people not in school who don't have a job.

There is no need for "seasonal adjustments".  All that is hand waving to make a statistical value "look" good or bad.  I can tell based on a graph if employment normally goes up or down depending on what time of the year it is.  I don't need "adjustments" to attempt to make the picture rosier than it is.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Meh

Unemployment rates are adjusted for seasonal trends in hiring and firing, which most economists believe gives a better picture of the job market.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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False baseline -- another classic method of deception

I do like how the graph has a teeny tiny bar for 5 million and huge bar for 6.6 million.

I hadn't originally noticed the false basline, but its pretty severe. This is a classic method for misleading the audience.

It can be legitimate if it doesn't impact the comparison being made, but in this case it greatly exaggerates the increse in unemployment.

 

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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seasonality is great

I said that it was reasonable to use the adjusted number, but they need to tell us what statistics they are using. I have no doubt that they would have used the raw numbers if that served their purposes.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Wow, you're right!

It looks like "destroying jobs" would be a more apt term.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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