Mid-week Open Thread

Hope everyone enjoyed their holiday weekend. In the news today:

Obama set to choose Sonia Sotomayer for the Supreme Court . Let the mudslinging begin! Oh, wait , it began weeks ago.

North Korea is acting up again. Testing Obama? Internal power play? A bit of both?

California court ruling on Prop 8 due out today.

Oh the irony: Man sues Guinnes Book of Records over 'most lawsuits' claim .

This is an Open Thread.

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Yep, some juicy news today for sure...

...as far as Sotamayer, NIGHTMARE!

And I mean that literally, she is just a poor choice.

For the left, she is simply intellectually shallow ,  (Written in the NR by a liberal) it's as if Obama wanted to replace Souter with...a Souter. She is reviled by her colleagues, she's not a consensus builder, just bad news all around for you guys.

For the right, she's a liberal, not moderate at all, and she is a policy maker type.

"Judge Sotomayor is a liberal judicial activist of the first order who thinks her own personal political agenda is more important that the law as written.  She thinks that judges should dictate policy, and that one's sex, race, and ethnicity ought to affect the decisions one renders from the bench.
 
"She reads racial preferences and quotas into the Constitution, even to the point of dishonoring those who preserve our public safety.  On September 11, America saw firsthand the vital role of America's firefighters in protecting our citizens.  They put their lives on the line for her and the other citizens of New York and the nation.  But Judge Sotomayor would sacrifice their claims to fair treatment in employment promotions to racial preferences and quotas.  The Supreme Court is now reviewing that decision.
 
"She has an extremely high rate of her decisions being reversed, indicating that she is far more of a liberal activist than even the current liberal activist Supreme Court."

She is prone to odd statements which could pose a lengthy series of hurdles for her along the way, such as;

I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experience would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn’t lived that life.

Can you imagine if Roberts had said, "I would hope that a white male with the richness of his experience would more often than not reach  better conclusion than a Latin female who hasn't lived that life."

Bad call Mr. President, a moderate would have been welcomed, Ms. Sotomayer I am afraid will not be.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

…………

If such an article

 had been written about one of Bush's nominees -- quoting completely anonymous sources -- it would have been assailed by the right as a hit piece. But the right has spent all morning quoting it. Whatever.

This quote:

"She has an inflated opinion of herself, and is domineering during oral arguments, but her questions aren't penetrating and don't get to the heart of the issue." 

... is especially funny.

Change the gender and it is a description of Scalia (first part) and Thomas (second).

But I guess Princeton and Yale must suck really bad. If such a lightweight can graduate summa cum laude from Princeton and be editor of the Yale Law Journal, those schools should be kicked out of the Ivy League. Couldn't Obama find anyone who had graduated from Bob Jones University?

If the Republican Party wants to continue to circle the demographic drain and make its stand against Obamaism by opposing Sotomayor, then I say -- Bring it on, dudes.

 

qui tacet consentire

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Thomas can talk?

Thomas can talk?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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If the Republican Party

If the Republican Party wants to continue to circle the demographic drain and make its stand against Obamaism by opposing Sotomayor, then I say -- Bring it on, dudes.

Considering our party's history on nominations she'll likely sail through with like 90 votes, we're not the party of borking. That said I don't think it would actually hurt Republicans to oppose Sotomayor, as the only people who care about this stuff are the hard core folks.

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It was the Republicans who stopped Harriet Miers, not the Dems.

I know a bunch of Republicans out here who don't like Sotomayor.  But it's all so knee jerk.  These are good people yet they repeat the manna that was fed to them almost verbatim.

I'd prefer an opposition that had actual principles and values.  I don't think that opposing everything your opponents suggest is really a value.  It's sad that they think that by slowing the wheels they can run on the Democratic Party as being ineffectual leaders.  Some truth there though.  I've had my ups & downs with Reid, now I think he's gotta go.  This kind of opposition, you can't treat like adults.  You can't treat them like gentlepersons.  Mind you, I don't want them to go Tom DeLay on them or anything.  Let's be civilized after all.

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This quote sticks out like a sore thumb

I haven't read enough of Sotomayor's opinions to have a confident sense of them, nor have I talked to enough of Sotomayor's detractors and supporters, to get a fully balanced picture of her strengths. "

 If you want a fuller appreciation of the article, read the comments. I don't know who Jeffery Rosen is, but this is sloppy commentary on his part. I suggest that Rosen take his own advice that he doesn't meet the demanding standard of journalism. The New Republic should be embarassed.

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+4

It seems as if Sotomayor's detractors are seizing on one poorly phrased snippet of one speech she made, and meanwhile she has an expansive body of work available on the public record.  How many of us bloggers would like to be judged exclusively by our most poorly phrased comment?

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Oh lordy

I'd be in big trouble.

In my case there would be wealth of poorly phrased comments to chose from! 

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I can tell you exactly what that would be like Skymutt.

How many of us bloggers would like to be judged exclusively by our most poorly phrased comment?

Because Sotomayer already settled that one for us.

As far as ML, seems she has much in common with Sotomayer herself.

"She has an inflated opinion of herself, and is domineering during oral [written] arguments, but her questions aren't penetrating and don't get to the heart of the issue.".......Her opinions are viewed by former prosecutors [fellow bloggers] as not especially clean or tight, and sometimes [often] miss the forest for the trees......rather than focusing on the core analytical issues.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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If you are comparing me

 to Judge Sotomayor, I will take that as an extreme compliment.

 The most revealing facts  so far on the pick of this nominee, have been not an examination of the Judge's record, but the right wing reaction to her nomination.

 It is fairly obvious that it is not just an isolated notion, from those on the right that assertive women are considered abrasive (bitchy). That even though she was Suma Cum Laude at Princeton, she is just a stupid woman who didn't get there by being smart. Gordon Liddy hoped that she wouldn't be menstrating during the hearings. Rush insists that she hates white people. On and on it goes. The revelation about the right wing views towards intelligent women that are perceived to be liberal is quite frankly a wee bit frightening.

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What if that student,

What if that student, assembled in a group as part of the New Black Panthers, and was denied the privilege of being on student council, do you think the outcome would deny that student's Constitutional right to peacefully assemble?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Sullivan is tentatively for her

And he hasn't steered me wrong yet.

Link 1
Link 2

I think this is as good as can be expected from Obama.  I tend to prefer originalists, but they simply aren't on the table with Mr. Obama here.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Sullivan shmulivan... ;-)

At first pass, this chick is bad news.

So first, she see's herself as a policy maker , the LAST thing we want on the Supreme Court.

Then there is this racist quote .

She further exposed her race sensitivities in this one paragraph reverse discrimination case opinion.

The fact is she is temperamental, not the best or brightest, unable to separate her politics from the bench, and unsuitable for the highest court in the land.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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I haven't made any decision

I will reserve any judgement for what comes out during the confirmation process.  I learned enough to support Chief Justice Roberts (although he has disappointed me) during his confirmations.  I may go either way on this one.  We'll see what she says.

Frankly, Obama can get anyone he wants confirmed.  This hand-waving from the conservatives is wasted effort.  And then, of course, are the people who are against anyone Obama nominates simply because they were nominated by Obama.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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I ws hoping for Wood, or someone at lest somewhat moderate.

n/t

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Dreher backtracks

Apparently the "wise Latina" remark was taken out of context .

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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That article is appalling.

This sudden questioning of the blind justice worries me greatly. This is the same as with all Obamas actions, people just all of a sudden reconsider age old precedent in favor of a muddled view of the thing.

The bankruptcy of the auto makers is that way, years of bankruptcy precedent out the window as the creditors are moved down in line so Barack can pay back the unions.

Now I heard all day today from the left how out of the box this [idiotic] chick is, how refreshing her thinking is and how it is just what Obama wants, a justice who can bring some heart to the court!

WTF!

As far as Rod Dreher goes, give me Mark Levin anyday .

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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The only way to avoid identity politics

 is to pick white men? 

 The double standard here is rank.

Sam Alito said almost exactly the same thing in Congressional testimony as Motomayor.

Sam Alito has empathy for immigrants based on the richness of his upbringing. It is his job to uphold the law, but when there is a case involving certain segments of society, he can't help but think about how his decision will affect the children.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/27/sotomayor/index.html

 

 

U.S. SENATOR TOM COBURN (R-OK): Can you comment just about Sam Alito, and what he cares about, and let us see a little bit of your heart and what's important to you in life?

ALITO: Senator, I tried to in my opening statement, I tried to provide a little picture of who I am as a human being and how my background and my experiences have shaped me and brought me to this point.

ALITO: I don't come from an affluent background or a privileged background. My parents were both quite poor when they were growing up.

 

And so it's my job to apply the law. It's not my job to change the law or to bend the law to achieve any result.

[....snip...]

But when I look at those cases, I have to say to myself, and I do say to myself, "You know, this could be your grandfather, this could be your grandmother. They were not citizens at one time, and they were people who came to this country."

When I have cases involving children, I can't help but think of my own children and think about my children being treated in the way that children may be treated in the case that's before me.

 

 

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Wow, Levin really give Dreher a spanking!

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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This quote from Sotomayer is frightening ...

While recognizing the potential effect of individual experiences on perception, Judge Cedarbaum nevertheless believes that judges must transcend their personal sympathies and prejudices and aspire to achieve a greater degree of fairness and integrity based on the reason of law. Although I agree with and attempt to work toward Judge Cedarbaum's aspiration, I wonder whether achieving that goal is possible in all or even in most cases.

because this is basically an admission that she doesn't believe that it is possible to be neutral or impartial.  I can only assume that she is speaking from personal experience as she has been confronted with that very prospect, and apparently failed by her own estimation.

So, Obama has picked someone that seems to feel that they cannot break out of being one-sided and biased.  Great, just what we need on the Supreme Court.

I suspect that Sonia Sotomayer was intended to be Obama's Harriet Miers , i.e. a token throw away candidate put out there for partisan brownie points before the real candidate is put up front, but the scary thing here is that she may actually end up confirmed.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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C'est vrai

It is impossible to be wholly impartial.  Our biases are there, working behind the scenes to shape our opinions.  To pretend that anyone can be completely impartial is very utopian of you.

To me, that quote makes Sotomayor sound like a pragmatic realist.  That sounds a lot like Obama, which is probably why he picked her.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Who said anything about being completely impartial?

Not me.  But her comment points to the fact that she feels that it is not possible (presumably for her)  "in all or even most of the cases."  In other words she doesn't think that she can muster an impartial decision even once in a while, let alone all the time.

I'd be happy with a good faith effort, but here we see her making excuses for her biases unabashedly.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I don't read it that way

All I read is her saying:

1) It is good to be neutral and impartial when making judicial decisions.
2) Attaining this goal is extremely difficult.

I didn't read enough of the entire lecture to understand why she believes 2) to be true, but I agree with her.  We can try to be impartial, but our inherent biases will always leak into our decision making processes.

Does that mean we shouldn't try?  Of course not, and I don't think she made any such allusion.  However, it does mean we shouldn't be shocked that judges are fallible.  Case in point: Scalia's concurrence in Gonzalez v. Raich.  He threw federalism out the window because he didn't like the idea of people smoking a particular plant.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Let's review the key sentence ...

I wonder whether achieving that goal is possible in all or even in most cases.

In this context "goal" = "being neutral and impartial".  Failing to achieve the goal is effectively, "not goal", and therefore logically speaking "not goal" = "being not neutral or not impartial".  This is basic boolean logic. *

Given this we can rearrange her statement a bit and substitute the boolean equivalent of her point as follows:

I wonder if in all or even most cases judges are actually being not neutral or not impartial.

My point is that she is most likely making this assessment based on her own personal experiences in cases, so it amounts to an admission that she doubts whether she can be neutral or impartial in all or even most cases.

----------------------------------

*  NOT ( A AND B ) = ( NOT A ) OR ( NOT B ), where A = neutral and B = impartial.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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English isn't boolean logic

Until she clarifies, this is an exercise in futility.  Only Ms. Sotomayor knows what she meant, and frankly, I don't really care all that much.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Well, that doesn't mean that boolean logic isn't applicable.

From a truth and/or logic point of view I have provided an equivalent formulation of her actual statement.  What part of that don't you agree with (not that you can actually argue with the logic tables involved)?

If you have failed to be "neutral and impartial" is that not the equivalent of saying that you were "either not neutral or not impartial"?  These are provably equivalent statements from a logical point of view.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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It's on topic in my head

Steve Young always tried to play the perfect game, he never did, but one could say he came close. One could say there is no such thing as a perfect game or a perfectly impartial judge.
Depends on how liberally one would use "impartial" too.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Quit equivicating!

The role of  supreme court justice is to determine the constitutionality of the cases before them, not to bring the empathy of identity politics to the cause of those before it.

Period.

Where were the bleeding heart stories about Clarence Thomas, or Gen. Atty. Gonzales who has an even more compelling story than this policy making crackpot.

Yes she's a racist crackpot.

This is evidence once and for all, the long standing debate on whether the left wants to truly protect and defend the constitution is a big joke, it always has been, but not until now have you all been so brazen as to flaunt it this way.

Shame on liberals for failing to uphold the most fundamental of American keystones, blind justice.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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"[I see reverse racism, everywhere?]"

And Rush Limbaugh was more than quick to jump all over the media on Donavon McNabb because Rush sees reverse racism every where he looks. Apparently Rush wasn't impressed by McNabb's TD/INT ratio, or ignored it, with no top 25 WR talent to work with, apparently Rush thought that James Thrash and Todd Pinkston were future Hall of Famers or he just happened to only look at things that just so happened to back up his preconceived notions.

If a minority brings up differences in experiences, and mentions the word "white" they're automatically racist?

Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life. Let us not forget that wise men like Oliver Wendell Holmes and Justice Cardozo voted on cases which upheld both sex and race discrimination in our society. Until 1972, no Supreme Court case ever upheld the claim of a woman in a gender discrimination case. I, like Professor Carter, believe that we should not be so myopic as to believe that others of different experiences or backgrounds are incapable of understanding the values and needs of people from a different group. Many are so capable. As Judge Cedarbaum pointed out to me, nine white men on the Supreme Court in the past have done so on many occasions and on many issues including Brown.

No possible way it reads like?:

Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise [person with a certain life experience] with the richness of [their] experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a [a person] who hasn't lived that life.

Seemingly pointing that people with different backgrounds will bring a different filter they use to perceive the world (because of their experiences), and that could affect how objectively they can look at facts, that's racist?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Yes.

Furthermore she's also been overturned 2/3's of the time in the SCOTUS. That means she's wrong more often than she's right, we don't need that in the highest court in the land!
She's been rebuked by another Latino judge for not being able to articulate a constitutional legal argument in support of her opinions.
She's just a lemon of a nominee.
 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Let's just hope the GOPO fights her nomination ...

because I think she has always been the liberal throw away candidate.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Sotomayor is

 a cold heartless judge, who ruled against a poor black woman, who after years of working hard, putting herself through school, got a job as a nurse worked for 12 years and sustained a severe back injury dealing with a patient. She sued the hospital for discrimination because they wouldn't rehire her due to a back injury. Sotomayor rules against on very narrow legalistic grounds.

 The case was Norville v. Staten Island University Hospital

 She is an extremely cautious legalistic nit picker and can not by any measure as making decisions based on her compassion for the downtrodden.

 

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And, lol, Mancow faked his waterboarding experiment! LOL!

I told you he is just a hack !

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Maybe you should volunteer

 to be waterboarded to put the question to rest once and for all.

 Make a video of yourself being waterboarded, as proof that water boarding is not torture. We all await the results of your experiment.

 

 

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I don't have any reason too.

n/t

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Speak Softly and carry around Sugar Free Cookies

How about to show that you'd tell people you started the Great Chicago Fire in order to not go through "non-physical" pain?

Or would you rather want some tasty sugar free cookies?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I've had my share of pain there sport...

...I get the gist of WB'ing.

PS - WB'ing does not cause physical pain.... ;-)

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Without knowing much about Sotomayor,

the above-mentioned incident, if that be true, really doesn't sound like it would bode well for her.

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IN this case

she upheld the law as the case was set before her.

 Through a series of court tricks and changing judges, the case was pre prejudiced when it was handed to a Judge from Louisianna, with fairly radical views, who threw out much of the evidence.

 Glenn Greenwald was the attorney for the plaintiff and has an enlightening post on the case. His view is that according to a strict reading of the law, Sotomayor ruled correctly, in spite of the fact that her sympathies were with the woman.

 All things are not always as they first appear.

 Here's a link to Greenwald's accounting.

 http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/28/sotomayor/index.html

  

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Meh. Sotomayer is Latina, not black.

She didn't grow up black so she can't possibly empathize with a black women.  Remember, she can only understand what it is like to be Latina by definition and THAT is where her empathies will lie.  So as far as throwing other people under the bus is concerned, she'll obviously be happy to throw blacks there as well as whitey.

 

Meta: This post is a hyperbolically worded serious comment which mocks the attitude of Sotomayers' supporters..

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Clever

 Obama picked her because she hates black people. It's so obvious, now that you have said that.

 

 

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Oh, come on now, GoRight!

This:

 "She didn't grow up black, so she can't possibly empathize with a black woman"

is a bunch of  baloney, GoRight.  What's so impossible about having empathy for someone, even if s/he is of a different racial, ethnic or religious group than you are?  If the history of the Civil Rights Movement here in the United States , in which people of all denominations, ethnic group and colors were involved, is any indication,  what you said couldn't be less true. 

 

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Hmm, OK.

So can a white man empathize with a minority?

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Not as well as a latina woman with her rich experience...

....well, according to Ms Sotomayer that is. ;-)

The real answer to your question though is, it just isn't a part of the work, in fact, I would liken it to coming up dirty on an employment drug test, it makes you suspect in terms of how well you can do the job.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Heh, exactly my point.

Not as well as a latina woman with her rich experience well, according to Ms Sotomayer that is. ;-)

And here is her actual quote :

Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life.

So is she saying that only wise Latina women with rich experiences can reach good conclusions, or is she saying that you have to have lived a particular life to be empathetic others from a similar background (i.e. by having lived a particular type of life)?  I find both to be troublesome, actually.

As to the first possibility, I see no particular reason that Latina women should be considered any more wise, any more insightful, or any more empathetic than anyone else.  Does anyone else here think this is what she meant and therefore want to actually defend this position?

As to the second possibility, I see no reason that this logic should be limited to the empathic qualities of white males exclusively.  Unless Sotomayer is biased against white males in particular (i.e. she is a racist)  we should be able to substitute any ethnic group in place of "white male" and still have a valid statement.  If her argument holds any water, that is.  So I substituted "black female" and lobbed out the logical equivalent in my post above.  We now see the result.

So is Sotomayer a racist who is biased against white males, or not?  If not, how does one reconcile that fact with her statement above?

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Sooo misleading...

Of the nearly 400 opinions she has issued in her career, 3 have been overturned by the Supreme Court. This, in Republicaspeak, means she's wrong more often than right.

And let's see, the Supreme Court on average overturns about 75% of the cases it hears, so Sotomayor's 60% rate is pretty good!

Oh, and apparently Samuel Alito's reversal rate was 100%. Perhaps he should be impeached. According to your logic, he's always wrong!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Mediocre Judge!

I'm not worried about her other poor opinions tht someone got stuck suffering through because they didn't hve the money to elevate it. I'm concerned with her SCOTUS record;

Three of the five majority opinions written by Judge Sotomayor for the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals and reviewed by the Supreme Court were reversed, providing a potent line of attack raised by opponents Tuesday after President Obama announced he will nominate the 54-year-old Hispanic woman to the high court.

"Her high reversal rate alone should be enough for us to pause and take a good look at her record. Frankly, it is the Senates duty to do so..."

The more fruitful ground to object to her is her racist and sexist attitude. She has openly expressed it on numerous occasions, and her ruling in a recent case now on appeal and predicted to be overturned by the Supreme Court suggest at best an indifference to civil rights for white males.

George Will discusses the case and her attitude here .

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Meh

I'm concerned with her SCOTUS record;

And I repeat, Alito's SCOTUS record was worse. It's simply not a useful metric upon which to judge a judge, IMHO.

Regarding Ricci v. DeStefano (the New Haven Fire Dept. case), I'll take my analysis from someone who has actually read the case for themselves, which I will bet dollars to donuts George Will never bothered to do:

The basic point of all this is: both the District Court and the Second Circuit seem to me to have been applying the law in accordance with clear precedents. This is what judges are supposed to do. And anyone who thinks that this decision (made by this court) is problematic should not go on to criticize Judge Sotomayor for judicial activism, since no one who genuinely thought there was a problem with substituting one's own views about what the law ought to be for what it actually says would object to this decision.

Or, if you prefer a more conservative voice :

There is something eerily similar to conservative reactions to the Ricci case and the common conservative reaction to the rulings of the courts in the Schiavo controversy: the actual substance of law in the matter was fairly straightforward and clear, but it yielded a result that many conservatives found unacceptable, and they therefore sought all manner of political remedies to undo the reasonable decisions of the courts. Rather than locating the problem in the law or in the unusually difficult circumstances of the case in question, conservatives determined that it was the judges who were the problem.

So basically, if Sotomayor had decided the case differently from the way she did, she would have been guilty of judicial activism!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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getting a case to the SCOTUS is hardly about money

I'm not worried about her other poor opinions tht someone got stuck suffering through because they didn't hve the money to elevate it.

While having money is surely a necessity to keep fighting a case, 99% of submitted cases are rejected . The content matters more than the money.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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True, thanks. However the context of my point remains.

n/t

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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George Will misrepresents Sotomayor's words

Taylor has also noted this from a Sotomayor speech to a Hispanic group: "I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion (as a judge) than a white male who hasn't lived that life." Says Taylor, "Imagine the reaction if someone had unearthed in 2005 a speech in which then-Judge Samuel Alito had asserted, for example: 'I would hope that a white male with the richness of his traditional American values would reach a better conclusion than a Latina woman who hasn't lived that life' -- and had proceeded to speak of 'inherent physiological or cultural differences.'"

If Will thinks that the two comments are equivalent, he either is a lazy bum who hasn't done his homework, or he is a deceptive SoB.

Here's what Will should have read:‘A Latina Judge’s Voice’ by Sotomayor

Sotomayor was talking about cases involving sexual or racial discrimination, which is why membership in a historically excluded group is relevant. She mentioned  "physiological or cultural differences.'" only to say that they are independent of what she's talking about. Alito's comment would make no sense in that context.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Meh

Give me George Will.

That whole article has an eerie desperation in seek of validation sort of vibe to it.

Weird.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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This is a very shallow talking point.

 Your comment is Exhibit A in demonstrating how easily a myth can be circulated as 'fact' by the media.

 The most Federalist of Federalists will disagree with that this hollow yet oft repeated line, shows a complete misunderstanding of how the law works.

  Though I disagree with the folks on Powerline almost 100% of the time, they do understand the way the law works.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/05/023663.php

 

 

Much is being made, in some circles, of the fact that 60 percent of the majority decisions written by Judge Sonia Sotomayor during her tenure on the Second Circuit, on which appeals have been heard by the Supreme Court, have been reversed . On its face, this sounds awful; no judge should be reversed anywhere near 60 percent of the time.

However, the statistic appears to be meaningless. It relates only to Sotomayor's decisions as to which a petition for a writ of certiorari was granted by the Supreme Court--a total of only five. (The overwhelming majority of such petitions are denied.) Of the five cases in which the Supreme Court granted the writ of certiorari, it reversed three. Not only is this a ridiculously small sample, the overall rate of reversal of cases in which the Supreme Court grants cert appears to be around 70 percent . This shouldn't be too surprising, as it requires four votes on the court to grant a writ of certiorari, and five to reverse the Court of Appeals' decision.

So, unless there is more to the story, conservatives should stop citing the 60 percent figure as evidence of any lack of competence on Sotomayor's part.

 

………… parent

Fair enough, it's way broader than that though.

And gee, look what they have to say over at Power Line ;

Barack Obama famously says that a key quality he wants in a Supreme Court justice is "empathy." As many commentators have observed, "empathy" is really a cover for lawlessness. But it's actually worse than that, because empathy, as that term is used by Obama, is inherently selective.

Does Obama mean that his nominee will have empathy for the unborn? Well, no. He doesn't have in mind that kind of empathy. How about empathy for taxpayers and small business owners? No, that isn't exactly the right sort of empathy either.

Obama's favorite example of the right kind of empathy is Lily Ledbetter. As Paul has pointed out, Lily Ledbetter was a liar with a lousy case that was properly barred by the statute of limitations. What "empathy" is at work here? Empathy with unions and, perhaps even more important, the people who profit more than anyone else when lousy cases are kept alive in the courts--plaintiffs' lawyers, among the largest contributors to the Democratic Party. What Barack Obama means by an "empathetic" judge is one who has his or her thumb on the scale on behalf of politically favored groups. This is the opposite of the traditional view that a judge should be neutral, i.e., have equal empathy for all litigants.

There is a parallel here to the use of foreign law as precedent by some liberal judges. Did those judges look for guidance to the laws of Muslim countries when they ruled in Lawrence v. Texas that there is a constitutional right to sodomy? Of course not. That isn't the sort of "foreign law" they have in mind. Reference to foreign law, like empathy, is inherently selective, since laws in various countries conflict, and is really a cover for a judge's imposition of his own political preferences or for resolving an issue favorably to a politically favored group.

 

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Good for the goose ...

If a minority brings up differences in experiences, and mentions the word "white" they're automatically racist?

equates to good for the gander.  If a white mentions the word "black" (actually they don't even have to do that anymore) then they are automatically racist?  Sure seems to work that way.

 

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Keep up the race to the bottom

 If a black person votes for a black person that's racism (according to Rush)

 If a white person votes for a white person is that racism also?

 It would seem that any minority is automatically assumed to be racist, simply because they aren't white, IF they bring up their background.

 What the GOP is missing here in their rabid savaging of this highly qualified woman, is that she is fairly conservative, according to liberals.

 I would think that you would be happy that some liberals are already questioning her credentials as a liberal.

 That makes for a tough choice for you.

 Should you oppose her because you think she is a racist, or should you support her because some liberals are somewhat concerned about her liberalness.

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Why do liberals such as yourself think this is a tough choice?

That makes for a tough choice for you.

It is not a tough choice.  Republicans believe that all racism is wrong, including the race-based biases of minorities and the Democrat leadership.  Republicans want to put race behind us and have a color-blind society.  Democrats always want to keep a person's race front and center.  How is putting someone's race front and center being race neutral?  It isn't.

Personally, I think that the Democrats are the racists simply because everything they promote is race-based in some way or another.

 

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That is your perception

Feel free to own it.

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It's not a perception, it's a known fact.

Democrats want to ask people their race on just about any government form they create.  That puts race front and center.  This is undeniable.

 

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Keep digging

I am just going to remind you that the remarks were made specifically in a forum to discuss cultural diversity on the bench. 

 This is what was said about Clarence Thomas by conservative lawyer John Yoo:

   "is a black man with a much greater range of personal experience than most of the upper-class liberals who take potshots at him" and argued that Thomas' work on the court has been influenced by his understanding of the less fortunate acquired through personal experience.

  If you chose to attack Sotomayor's statements as 'racist', then you must also attack these comments defending Clarence Thomas as racist.

 Is describing Thomas as being 'influenced by his understanding of the less fortunate acquired through person experience" a worrisome phrase leading to 'empathic' judicial temperament?

 Or is Thomas' understanding of the less fortunate to be described as a mark of compassionate conservatism?

 In either instance it is impossible to say that any human would not bring into play their background and experience in making decisions on some level.

 The standard of conservatives flaunting Thomas as being

 [..a black man..] understanding  the less fortunate through personal experience

vs demeaning Sotomayor for mentioning

[..a Latina woman..]  richness of her background as a woman and a Latina, is a standard that screams hypocrisy.

 Further if you ever bother yourself with reading her speech it is very well thought through.

 She also concludes that it was nine white men who were  not so myopic as to be unable to have an empathy for those that come from different cultural backgrounds as witnessed by the history of the courts decisions.

 

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To whom was I referring, ...

in my previous two posts above?

 

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and.....

 what does this have to do with anything?

 Republicans calling Sotomayor a racist, or a reverse racist is actually to be read...... it's all democrats fault. Or, the democrats started it, er something equally childish.

 You remind me of a sheep herder in Israel who insists that all Palestians are the devil, no matter how  many good faith efforts are made on both sides to change the subject, and more forward, because one time in the 19th century your great great grand father told a story about a Palestinian sheep herder stealing a sheep. Though the incident occurred long ago, and many things have changed the grudge will never die.

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What does my reference have to do with my statement?

and..... what does this have to do with anything?

LOL, are you seriously asking that?  What possible relationship could the group I am specifically referring to in my statements possibly have to do with the actual meaning my my statements?

It's sort of like you are putting up something that sounds like what I said, but it really wasn't, and then you build an argument against that.  Hmm.  There's a name for that kind of argument.  Do you know what it is?

 

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Yes.....

And it is my perception from your posts, that if you were an Israeli, or a Palestinian in charge of negotiating Peace in the Middle East it would be hopeless.

  It's attitudes like yours, holding grudges forever, refusing to move the dialogue forward free of spite , that will keep us from having peace in the middle east. 

 All because you missed out on being one of the cool kids in the 60's. I don't think you will ever recover! =)

 My perception only.

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http://www.nizkor.org/feature

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Sorry, I don't see any logical connection to my comment.

Please explain.

 

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Racism is idiocy, as are many other things

Republicans believe that all racism is wrong

In other words, Republicans are on a quest to enforce ideological conformity.

They have been listening to the racists for too long, and thought that anti-racism is all about ideological conformity. They totally missed the fact that anti-racism is first and foremost a tactic to dismantle a real system of oppression.

I have no desire to beat all idiocy out of the world. There's just too much of it, and there are too many forms of idiocy that are too popular. I'll just focus on the dangerous idiocy.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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I swear they

 have become confused by their own rhetoric, which is confusing on purpose.

 Ideological conformity is a well stated insight. 

 I agree that this particular form of idiocy is dangerous partly because we hear such hateful comments go essentially unchallenged.

  The general populace becomes numb to the violent intent of such words. As we see from today's events, it doesn't take much to tap into the underbelly of people's insecurities, to pump them up with a sense of self righteous anger that foments a mentality of vigilante justice.

  

 

 

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racial resentment

If a white mentions the word "black" (actually they don't even have to do that anymore) then they are automatically racist?  Sure seems to work that way.

If I take your comment literally, I have no idea of what you mean and have to conclude that you live in a different world than I do.

However, if you are just observing that people are more sensitive to white racism than non-white (e.g. black) racism, I agree with you. However, I think there is a good reason for that. White racism was the ideological basis for the most oppressive institutions in American history (slavery and Jim Crow). This ideology has never fully disappeared, and it's understandable that its victims would be sensitive to any indication that it may be retaining (or even gaining) influence. Black racism has never resulted in anything more than some street crime. More importantly, because blacks are a minority, a theory of black supremacy could never lead to systematic oppression.

You shouldn't begrudge others simply because they have to beware of something that you can ignore with impunity.

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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You're funny.

Racism is bad, period. It was bad when white people did it, it is just as bad now when blck people do it.

This liberal inclination to somehow want to rationalize away reverse discrimintion is very....empathetic. LOL! ;-)

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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You do realize

 that lack of empathy is the definition of a sociopath.

A person who can not empathize is not on sound footing to make good judgments, for himself, his neighbors, his community or his country.

 The jails are filled with people who have no empathy.

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Sam Alito has an 'empathy' problem

ALITO: Senator, I tried to in my opening statement, I tried to provide a little picture of who I am as a human being and how my background and my experiences have shaped me and brought me to this point. … And that’s why I went into that in my opening statement. Because when a case comes before me involving, let’s say, someone who is an immigrant — and we get an awful lot of immigration cases and naturalization cases — I can’t help but think of my own ancestors, because it wasn’t that long ago when they were in that position. [...]

 And that goes down the line. When I get a case about discrimination, I have to think about people in my own family who suffered discrimination because of their ethnic background or because of religion or because of gender. And I do take that into account,

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Sotomayer hs a free speech problem...

She sided against a student in the infamous “douche bag” case, and that has upset free-speech advocates.

Avery Doninger was disqualified from running for school government at Lewis S. Mills High School in Burlington after she posted something on her blog, referring to the superintendent and other officials as "douche bags" because they canceled a battle of the bands she had helped to organize.

The case went to court and in March 2008, Sotomayor was on a panel that heard Doninger’s mother’s appeal alleging her daughter’s free speech and other rights were violated. Her mother wanted to prevent the school from barring her daughter from running.

Read the rest here

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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I think the "good faith effort" at impartiality is a given

I think that what she was saying is that a judge's biases still tend to affect their decisions even despite any good faith effor that they might make at "perfect" impartiality.

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Perhaps.

But if you don't mind I would prefer someone on the Supreme Court to at least have some core ability to be objective.  Sotomayer has basically admitted that she wonders if she can be in all or even most cases.  There's lots of potential nominees out there.  Let's find one without this particular obvious flaw ... or even a hint of it.  The Supreme Court is a pretty important place to be able to be objective, IMHO.

 

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Review a few of her rulings

 before you pass judgement.

 Using third party hearsay is not a reliable predictor.

If you open your mind, I think you will be surprised by how narrowly she interprets the law. 

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While narrow rulings are good ...

they are not a substitute for neutrality and impartiality.  Even narrow decisions can be biased and do great harm.

 

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Yes we know seeing has how

 the harm that can come through bias in even narrow rulings seeing as how Bush was appointed by the Supreme Court. =)

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Is it a flaw?

Let's consider a hypothetical candidate, let's call her Judge Humphrey.  Let's say that Humphrey and Sotomayor issue the same rulings in every situation.  If Sotomayor sees her decisions as unavoidably colored by her life experiences and Humphrey sees herself as capable of completely putting aside any biases she has picked up in her personal experience in applying the law, is it really the case that Humphrey is more objective, or do the two candidates just have a different takes on what objectivity is, with Sotomayor taking perhaps the more pragmatic view?

It seems absurd to disqualify a judge for merely considering a philosophical question such as this, even if you do not happen to agree with her conclusion.

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I'll take the judge that at least professes to strive for

neutrality and impartiality over the one that openly tries to issue herself a free pass to not be any day of the week.

I think it is good that she is being honest about her biases, but even honesty is not a substitute for neutrality and impartiality.  I'm not going to reward her honesty by giving up on neutrality and impartiality, and thereby throwing the baby out with the bath water as it were.  That would be just as absurd.

 

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So how much empathy

do you have for Frank Ricci, the fireman who spent a $1000 on books, quit his second job, and had dyslexia, yet still managed to study 13 hours a day for a test to become a fire fighter.

 Sotomayor decided the case on precedent and law, and threw out the test results as opposed to having empathy for the aspiring fireman. She was following the law and precedent in the case. If she had ruled for Ricci, she would have essentially been burning the civl rights act, yet we hear from the right the very sad sad story of the fireman for  whom we are all supposed to have empathy.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/

 It's hard to imagine anything more contradictory than (a) the right-wing argument that empathy and political opinions have no place in judicial decision-making and (b) the right-wing argument that Sotomayor wrongly decided the Ricci "firefighters" case because what happened to Frank Ricci was terribly unfair and because affirmative action is a bad policy.

 The bias in this case comes from those on the right who detest affirmative action, and feel sorry for Frank Ricci, yet won't acknowledge that affirmative action is settled law, and Sotomayors decision followed legal precedent.

 This article by Charles Krauthammer, is a doozey. It's all empathy all the time for Frank Ricci, while completely ignoring the law.

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/28/AR2009052803613.html

 

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The very obvious answer

Is that it is "activism" when a judge refuses to overturn SCOTUS precedent when the precedent is "obviously" wrong.

I happen to believe stare decisis is rather overrated, but relying on it isn't activism and doubly so when one is a a lowly district or appeals court judge.  For example, I think Kelo is a horrible decision, but I'd have a problem with an inferior court trying to overturn it.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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The Judicial Activism here

 is from the right. This case has been pushed forward with the clear intent of over ruling precedent on affirmative action. It is being considered before the Supreme Court now.

 William Kristol wonders why the empathetic Judge Sotomayor has no empathy for Frank Ricci, white white man, again making it glaringly obvious that 'empathy' for whites is desirable, whereas empathy for non-whites is not.

 As the ethnic demographics of our country change into an ever more melty melting pot of diverse cultural backgrounds, the right seems to be cringing with fear that minorities would have an equal say in the laws that govern them.

 The pinnacle of this rank bigotry and fear comes from J Gordon Liddy, who had the audacity to wonder aloud what the consequences of the Sotomayor's  menstrual cycle would have on her judgement.

 As the right turns to chortle, mock, bully and smear anyone with whom the disagree. 

 Sotomayor's nomination is teaching us more about the right's temperament than we are learning about the nominee's.

………… parent

Sorry, ML, but Affirmative Action = Judicial Activism ...

it is not a law, it is an executive order being bolstered by activist judges like Sotomayer.

 

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Nope Sorry

 It's the Law!

 Just like letting black and women vote is the law. 

 (Really you can kiss my ass big time on this one.)

 One can debate the consequences of the merits of the rulings that began under Nixon to give minorities job opportunities that were previously denied, and whether it was done fairly or how much more resentment was created than already existed by the white man against minorities.

Equal Opportunity is the Law 

 Overturning the Ricci case would essentially burn down the civil rights act, something I am sure you would be delighted to do.

………… parent

Ricci should be overturned

But not by an appeals court.  Only the SCOTUS can do that.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

We shall see

 It is up for review before SCOTUS right now. The decision was appealed to the Supreme Court and reviewed in April, and will likely hand down it's judgement in July.

 Other interesting news on Sotomayor is she has the long history on campaign finance reform another tricky subject. The right advocates no limits and treats one group with a billion dollars to spend as one person with one dollar, as having equal free speech rights, re campaign spending.

 The clarity of her support for limits on campaign fundraising and her background as a pioneering campaign regulator is raising eyebrows among election law experts who say her record is more substantial and explicit than that of any Supreme Courtnominee since the dawn of the modern, post-Watergate campaign financeregime .

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/23070.html#ixzz0Gv7vqCQA&B


 

………… parent

Interesting

I'd like to see Buckley v. Valeo pared back a bit.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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You need to keep your terms straight, ML.

Affirmative Action is NOT the same thing as Equal Opportunity.  You were talking about Affirmative Action so I responded about Affirmative Action.  As I said, Affirmative Action is NOT a law but rather s set of Executive Orders, however you are correct that Equal Opportunity IS a law ... or rather a set of laws dealing with a variety of problem areas such as employment, credit, etc.  As one example, here is an overview of some of the EEO laws .

Nice attempt to bait and switch there, though.  Too bad I know what I am talking about so you can't just change the topics without being spotted.  :)

 

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An Executive Order Executes the Intent of the Law

 Affirmative Action gives teeth to the Civil Right Act and is law. In order to change the law, one must go through the courts. The intent of the Ricci case is to change the law, or amend it.

 Is it not obvious that if Affirmative Action was not law, there would be no need to use the courts to change it?

 Executive Orders are a legal tool a President can use to ensure that the laws passed by Congress are enforced with the putting the true intent of the law into action.

 The original Civil Rights Commission was created by Executive Order of Harry Truman.

 After the Civil Rights Act was passed Johnson issued an Executive Order to ensure that the full intent of the law was carried out. There has always been a strong backlash against Affirmative Action by those who feel that they have unfairly lost their jobs in an effort to give minorities, including women, equal opportunity.

  Executive orders are rarely over turned, but can be if Congress decides that the intent of the order is an abuse of powers intended to supercede the Congress by making law.

   It was Nixon who issued the strongest quotas for hiring minorities with his Philadelphia Plan. The goal was to use business as an opportunity for achieving the goal of giving blacks a fair shake at a decent job. 

 An Executive Order is Law as is the Civil Rights Act.

………… parent

Sorry, but it still isn't a law.

Affirmative Action gives teeth to the Civil Right Act and is law.

Show me the "Affirmative Action" statute, please.  Show me the law that says preferences should be given to minorities.  Put up, or shut up.

In order to change the law, one must go through the courts.

I think you must have a fundamental misunderstanding of how our system of government actually works.  In order to change the law, one must go through the Legislature, not the courts.  The courts have zero power to change the law, they can only interpret it.

The intent of the Ricci case is to change the law, or amend it.

Well if this is actually true, then you have proven my point.  Sotomayer is an activist judge because judges have no legitimate power to change the law.

In point of fact, legally speaking the most that the Ricci case can actually do as set precedent within the court system as to how to interpret the relevant law so that the courts actually provide equal protection under the law.

Is it not obvious that if Affirmative Action was not law, there would be no need to use the courts to change it?

Again, a fundamental misunderstanding of our system of government on your part.

There is, in fact, no such need for a court ruling to change Affirmative Action, so you premise if false and moot.  As the reference I already provided above amply points out, past Presidents have invented and altered Affirmative Action through the use of Executive Orders with no need to consult either the Legislature or the Courts.  Obama can do whatever he wants with it simply by issuing another executive order and neither Sotomayer, nor the Supreme Court for that matter, can have anything whatsoever to say about it so long as the changes remain Constitutional.  The Executive has supreme control over the definition and implementation of Affirmative Action, no one else.

Again, Equal Opportunity laws are completely a different animal.  Note that Equal Opportunity laws do NOT support Affirmative Action by definition.  The laws guarantee Equal Opportunity whereas Affirmative Action guarantees NOT Equal Opportunity by its very definition.

Executive Orders are a legal tool a President can use to ensure that the laws passed by Congress are enforced with the putting the true intent of the law into action.

This is true, but that doesn't make them laws.  Executive orders are not laws.

After the Civil Rights Act was passed Johnson issued an Executive Order to ensure that the full intent of the law was carried out.

This illustrates my point.  The Civil Rights Act is a law because it was created and passed by Congress and subsequently signed by the President, whereas the Executive Order is not simply because it has nothing to do with the Legislature.  Laws are created by Congress.  Executive Orders are created by Presidents.  The President has no Constitutional authority to create laws any more than the Courts do.

This is basically fundamental Government 101 stuff, so I don't see why you are fixated on calling Affirmative Action a law when it is something that was created by Presidents and, therefore, by definition cannot be a law.

There has always been a strong backlash against Affirmative Action by those who feel that they have unfairly lost their jobs in an effort to give minorities, including women, equal opportunity.

And this, of course, is the perennial fallacy promoted by the supporters of Affirmative Action.  But the very definition of Affirmative Action creates not an equal playing field but an uneven one.  Affirmative Actions give preferential treatment to some groups over others.  This is undeniable.  This is exactly what it does.  Preferential treatment is NOT the same thing as equality. This should be obvious to all.

Executive orders are rarely over turned, but can be if Congress decides that the intent of the order is an abuse of powers intended to supercede the Congress by making law.

Thus illustrating that they are not, by definition, laws.  Right?

An Executive Order is Law as is the Civil Rights Act.

<Shakes Head>

This is simply not true.  I am afraid that you simply don't understand that a law is, then, because this statement is complete and utter nonsense.  The President CANNOT make LAWS.

Please provide some reference to where the President is given the authority to create laws completely independent of Congress by simply issuing an Executive Order.  By what authority are you referring to Executive Orders as Laws?

 

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Mrs. Harwood

"Executive orders are not law, but have the full force and weight of law."

I got a 4/5 on my AP Govt. exam. :-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Who is Mrs. Harwood?

And what makes her an authority on such matters?  Please point me to the legal basis for this quote.

 

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O_o

High school students take AP exams....

ASAIK, high school juniors take the government high school AP exams.
I'd say she's an high school history teacher.

Not to mention, I remember my legal studies 3XX teacher saying effectively the same thing.
And

http://www.thisnation.com/question/040.html

Executive Orders do not require Congressional approval to take effect but they have the same legal weight as laws passed by Congress

And, icydk, even the IRS can create things similar to executive orders that have the full weight of law.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Perhaps we are talking past each other.

And, icydk, even the IRS can create things similar to executive orders that have the full weight of law.

Just to be clear, I have never made any assessment as to the "weight" that an Executive Order carries.  If I have, please point it out.

I am and have been arguing the point that an Executive Order is not a Law.  Read those words again and interpret them absolutely literally because that is what I am arguing.  We can have a debate about whether Executive Orders have the full weight of a law, or not, but that is a different question than whether it actually IS a Law.

We have been hearing a lot about people moving goal posts of late, so let me start being explicit about such things (not to pick on you specifically Brutus).  My original statement (i.e. my original goal post) was simply that "An Executive Order is not a Law", nothing more and nothing less.*

Therefore I reject this information as being evidence that is even applicable to refuting my original statement.

 

-----------------------------------

* So, for example, I consider a statement such as "An Executive Order carries the full weight of a Law" to be a completely different point (i.e. a completely different goal post).  Note that even this simple statement implies what I have originally claimed, that an "Executive Order is not a Law".  It may, or may not, have the same weight as a Law but it is very clearly NOT the same thing as a Law or this statement would be a tautology, and therefore meaningless.

 

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Sorry, ML, but Affirmative

Sorry, ML, but Affirmative Action = Judicial Activism ... it is not a law, it is an executive order being bolstered by activist judges like Sotomayer.

What was the point of that statement again?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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It seems short enough ...

so what part is confusing you?  I'll try to clarify if you can expound on what part doesn't make sense to you.

 

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"Sorry, ML, but Affirmative

"Sorry, ML, but Affirmative Action = Judicial Activism ... it is not a law, it is an [something that is for all due purposes a law, but not a "law"] being bolstered by activist judges like Sotomayer."

I take you didn't mean that. Otherwise this post would be useless.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Well, let me reword and clarify a bit.

A few relevant points here:

  1. This statement was never meant to be a reference specifically to just Sotomayer.  Note my use of "activist judges like Sotomayer".  So while I do imply that Sotomayor is an activist judge, my comment is not limited to just her.

  2. My use of the term "Affirmative Active" was meant as a general reference to "Affirmative Action" at the Federal level and was not intended to be restricted to the specifics of the Ricci case.  If I had meant the specifics of the Ricci case I would have mentioned the Ricci case.

  3. My use of the term "Judicial Activism" was meant as a general reference to any acts committed by the Judiciary in support of Affirmative Action, not specifically to Sotomayor or the details of the Ricci case in particular.  If I had meant to scope my comment to those specifics I would have done so directly, not implicitly.  Given the context in which I made the comment, however, I can certainly understand how that might not have been clear and I apologize for any confusion.*

  4. Your substituted text highlights a nuanced aspect of my original meaning.  I mean, quite literally, that Executive Orders are not Laws in the sense that they are not written by Congress.  I hold the same view with respect to Judicial Precedents, they are not Laws in the sense that they are not written by Congress.*

    My sound bite subject heading might have been better worded as "Affirmative Action = Executive Branch Dictates + Bolstering Judicial Precedents".  This coupled with my view that neither Executive Orders nor Judicial Precedent constitute Law as defined by Congress pretty much makes the point.

  5. Subsequent to having made this statement SL pointed out that Connecticut Law, which is the basis of the Ricci decision, does in fact have actual Affirmative Action statutes.  I have never disputed this point and I have now acknowledged that Sotomayor's ruling in the Ricci case is not an example of her being an "activist judge" in the sense that seems to be preferred in this thread.  That does not mean that other such examples might exist, and I make no claim one way or the other on the existence of such other examples.

    Given this, my original statement is not true in the narrow context of Connecticut State Law and the Ricci case in particular.  I do not believe that this significantly diminishes my larger point, however, especially on the Federal level.

Does that clarify things at all?

 

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* Upon further research into the topic of the sources of law (and no, Wikipedia is not an authority on this topic) and whether or not Executive Orders and Judicial Precedent are (or should be) considered Law I have come to realize that my view is at odds with a wider legal perspective on the subject.  So while I fundamentally disagree with the view that the President or the Courts can "make Laws", they are none the less widely recognized as having equivalent force.

I dispute this latter point on the basis that both Executive Orders and Judicial Precedent are inherently constrained by both the Constitution and the Statutes duly enacted by Congress.  They are not free to ignore either, excepting cases where a Congressional Statute is found to be Unconstitutional.  Neither the President nor the Judiciary retain the power to create Law from whole cloth on their own, and any such attempt to do so on their respective parts can be overridden at the whim of Congress (either by making changes to the relevant Statutes or by Constitutional Amendment if necessary).  Thus I contend that if Executive Orders and Judicial Precedent are inherently subordinate to the Constitution and the Laws of Congress,  they cannot also be the equal thereof.  But, as should be evident, this is merely my personal opinion.

 

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"Does that clarify things at

"Does that clarify things at all?"

more or less

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I disagree.

 

 An executive order clarifies the intent of the law. It is considered law.

 If a woman sues an abortion doctor, and takes it all the way to the court, what is she trying to do? She is trying to change the law, by over turning Roe v Wade.

 If a fireman sues cause he believes he was discriminated against based on affirmative action he is trying to change the law that has been set by executive order to put teeth in the civil rights act.

 

 

 

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No it isn't.

It is considered law.

It can't be becuase it isn't a law.

If a woman sues an abortion doctor, and takes it all the way to the court, what is she trying to do? She is trying to change the law, by over turning Roe v Wade.

No, she is trying to change precendent within the court system.  Precents within the court system are not laws.  The only thing that is a law is a statute written by the legislature, passed by both houses of Congress, and then either signed by the President or had a Presidential veto overridden.  They are enumerated in the body known as the U.S. Constitution and the U.S. Federal Code (I am only talking about federal law here).  Anything that is not so constructed and recorded is a LAW.  Period.  End of story.

If a fireman sues cause he believes he was discriminated against based on affirmative action he is trying to change the law that has been set by executive order to put teeth in the civil rights act.

No, he is challenging the court precendents related to Executive orders.  LAWS have nothing to do with it since there are no legislative constructs in play.  The Courts DO NOT make laws.  The Executive Branch DOES NOT make laws.  Period.  End of story.

Here, perhaps this will help you understand the finer points of what a LAW is and how it is created:

Can you provide any type of supporting evidence for the claim that Executive Orders are LAW, or is this something that you have dreamt up in your head?

 

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Changing Precedent

changes the law.  :=l 

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Huh?

What a strange thing to think.

The constitution and congress make law ML.

Courts can only claim it to be constitutional or not. (At least thats how it is supposed to be?)

Of course the way you guys want to play US Government, activist judges will just make law at their whim, whatever mood they're in, or what their personal belief system might be will rule the day.

Sad!

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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No, it doesn't.

Not one line, word, or letter of either the US Constitution or the US Federal Code was ever changed by a Court decision.  The only way those get changed is through the legislative process which is something the Courts have decidedly NO ROLE in whatsoever.  Read the Constitution.  It's in there!

 

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Does not compute.

 The right rails on about activist judges, and then you state point blank, that no court decision has ever changed anything.

 huh.....?

  

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I did NOT say that it did NOT change ANYTHING ...

Geeze, and you claim that I like to create strawmen?  You're doing nothing but in this thread.

 

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Again, huh....

 GoRight: Not one line, word, or letter of either the US Constitution or the US Federal Code was ever changed by a Court decision.

 The written words are obviously there unchanged. The Courts interpret those words.

 For example in the constitution the word militia, how  does that translate to individuals. Does militia refer to or to individual rights? The the words in the constitution remain unchanged, as you saw, the courts interpretation will significantly impact how those words are applied broadly to the law. 

 The Courts decisions definitively make law. Whether one argues original intent is set in cement or not, the words themselves are subject to interpretation. Does bear arms, mean I can own a nuclear weapon in my militia of one?

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What is the Law?

Where is it written?  What documents define it?  Who does the Constitution charge with creating it?

 

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Crickets.

 

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Interpreting the Law does NOT equate to "making Law" ...

The Courts decisions definitively make law.

so this statement is flat out wrong.  And Sotomayor is politically astute enough to agree with me:

SPIN METER: The politics of courts 'making' law

Bottom line: Sotomayor gave a fairly accurate thumbnail description of how the appellate system works, but those who hoped for a Roberts-like umpire have legitimate grounds to criticize her comments. Even Sotomayor seemed to know she had touched on a controversial topic.

"I know this is on tape, and I should never say that, because we don't make law," Sotomayor quickly added at Duke. "I'm not promoting it, and I'm not advocating it. I'm — you know."

So she obviously knows the correct answer.  The problem is that her comment actually points out that while she knows the correct answer she doesn't actually believe it, why else would she make this Freudian slip at such a visible and high-profile function as her nomination to the Supreme Court?

Now don't get me wrong.  I am not saying that Court precedent plays no role in how the law is applied, it clearly does and I don't have a problem with it per se, but it clearly isn't the same thing as "making law" and even Sotomayor knows it in spite of the fact that she obviously believes otherwise.

 

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If precedent changes

 how the law is applied, that changes the law (makes new law).

 Your claim that conservatives hate activist judges is hypocritical. Conservatives love activist judges. They want precedent overturned in a number of cases. Gun rights, affirmative action, roe v wade, on and on.

 Terri Shaivo's parents went to court over and over and over ad naseum for years, to challenge the law so they could have it changed. Remember Terri Shaivo and her numerous court battles. That was conservatives hoping for an activist judge.

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No it doesn't. You are simply incorrect.

We can resolve this entire thread if you just (truthfully) answer the following:

1) Who does the Constitution charge with "making law"?

2) Where are the Laws of the land recorded/documented?

Why are you afraid to answer such straight forward questions?

 

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Laws

and precedents are amended  in Court. The pro-life movement has gone to court and tried on numerous times to change the definition of the world viable.

 Otherwise conservatives have no claim to the cry of 'activist judges'.

 What is a militia? What is the meaning of the world viable. These are all words that have been clarifed by court rulings, that have 'changed' the law, as written in the constitution, as created by the Legislature, and as interpreted by the Courts.

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Avoiding the questions ...

please directly address the specific questions .

 

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But of course...

Sotomayor never said that courts make the law. She said they make policy. And that is largely true, when there is no precedent.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Huh?

But of course... Sotomayor never said that courts make the law.

Isn't that what I said?  In fact I quoted her as saying exactly the opposite:

"I know this is on tape, and I should never say that, because we don't make law," Sotomayor quickly added at Duke. "I'm not promoting it, and I'm not advocating it. I'm — you know."

-- Sotomayor

You must have me confused with ML.  She is the one that insists the Courts make Law.  I am even using what Sotomayor said refute ML.

But my point is that as we all know what people say and what they believe can often be two different things, and it is Freudian Slips like she made here at her nomination announcement that point to the truth behind the politically astute facade.

 

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Atonin Scalia disagrees with you

Every judge knows that courts make law by setting precedent. To say otherwise is untrue. Each judge tries their best to avoid taking creative leaps with precedent, (except for Sam Alito~me.

 

 

http://my.auburnjournal.com/detail/115557.html

- Antonin Scalia, 2002, majority opinion for "Republican Party of Minnesota v. White"

 

 

Even if the policy making capacity of judges were limited to courts of last resort, that would only prove that the announce clause fails strict scrutiny. "[I]f announcing one's views in the context of a campaign for the State Supreme Court might be" protected speech, post, at 3, n. 2, then-even if announcing one's views in the context of a campaign for a lower court were not protected speech, ibid.-the announce clause would not be narrowly tailored, since it applies to high- and low-court candidates alike.

 

 

 "In fact, however, the judges of inferior courts often "make law,"

 

 

"since the precedent of the highest court does not cover every situation, and not every case is reviewed." ~ Antonin Scalia

 

 

 

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It's not really clear that he does ...

Your quote comes from this:

Footnote 12

Although Justice Stevens at times appears to agree with Justice Ginsburg's premise that the judiciary is completely separated from the enterprise of representative government, post, at 3 ("[E]very good judge is fully aware of the distinction between the law and a personal point of view"), he eventually appears to concede that the separation does not hold true for many judges who sit on courts of last resort, post, at 3 ("If he is not a judge on the highest court in the State, he has an obligation to follow the precedent of that court, not his personal views or public opinion polls"); post, at 3, n. 2. Even if the policy making capacity of judges were limited to courts of last resort, that would only prove that the announce clause fails strict scrutiny. "[I]f announcing one's views in the context of a campaign for the State Supreme Court might be" protected speech, post, at 3, n. 2, then--even if announcing one's views in the context of a campaign for a lower court were not protected speech, ibid.--the announce clause would not be narrowly tailored, since it applies to high- and low-court candidates alike. In fact, however, the judges of inferior courts often "make law," since the precedent of the highest court does not cover every situation, and not every case is reviewed. Justice Stevens has repeatedly expressed the view that a settled course of lower court opinions binds the highest court. See, e.g., Reves v. Ernst & Young, 494 U. S. 56, 74 (1990) (concurring opinion); McNally v. United States, 483 U. S. 350, 376-377 (1987) (dissenting opinion).

Note his use of double quotes to surround the phrase.  He is not quoting something that anyone is speaking here, this is a literary technique which is being used to indicate that he does not mean this literally as you suggest.  As the surrounding context clearly indicates he is actually discussing the formation of Court Precedents ... which are the closest thing that the courts have to "making law"* ... but that does not make it the same thing as literally making law which is why he uses the quotes.

This footnote is merely observing that lower courts as well as the court of last resort actually make binding precedents, which of course refers strictly to how the law (which was created elsewhere) is to be interpreted.  This, of course, is NOT the same thing an literally making law.

It is also worth noting that the context of this footnote is discussing State Courts, not Federal Courts.  Whether Scalia would make a distinction between the two is also unclear.

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* There, see even I do it.  Look at my other posts, I too have used quotes in this manner and for exactly the same purpose.  It is a common enough technique.

 

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Crickets.

 

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Affirmative action statutes

Show me the "Affirmative Action" statute, please.  Show me the law that says preferences should be given to minorities.  Put up, or shut up.

Here you go :

The Affirmative Action Regulations issued pursuant to Section 46a-68a of the Connecticut General Statutes, which was created by Public Act 83-569, contained the following statement of purpose: The Connecticut "General Assembly recognized that full equality of opportunity cannot be achieved by state government without affirmative action. For equality is a dream not realized, a goal not yet attained. Whether the product of invidious discrimination or benign neglect, discrimination at the individual and institutional levels has historically disadvantaged many, to the detriment of society as a whole. Without affirmative action to correct inequities in opportunity inherited from the past, discrimination will continue unchecked, evolving into more subtle but equally sinister forms."

For the complete text of the Affirmative Action Regulations, refer to the Regulations of Connecticut State Agencies at Sections 46a-68-31 to 46a-68-74. These are currently not available on line. They may be viewed at libraries within the state, or contact our Office of Education Programs-Publications List to request a copy.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Man, you had to dig to find that one.

So on the one hand, nice find.  I admit that I am surprised that anyone actually enacted it into actual law.  Has this ever been tested for Constitutionality?  I bet that it violates the Equal Protection clause ... but that is an argument for another day.

Now, to be fair to me in this case, I think that I made it abundantly clear that I was referring to Federal Law in this thread so please don't suggest I am moving any goalposts here just because I didn't explicitly mention FEDERAL in conjunction with statutes in that challenge.

Bonus Question:

Given that this entire thread has been about Executive Orders issued by the President of the United States, does this response suggest that you believe that the President can create Connecticut State Law as well?

 

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Tested for constitutionality....

 That is the purpose of the Ricci case. To amend the present law, to elaborate on it. To set a different precedent and different parameters. To essentially challange the law. In this way a courts decision can change the law.

 In this case I would assume you would want an 'activist' judge to rule in the plaintiffs favor.

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Excuse me?

This thread has been about the Sotomayor decision in the Connecticut Ricci case, so CT statutes are about as relevant as you can get. It didn't take much digging at all. I'd guess most states have similar Affirmative Action statutes.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Interesting.

I guess we each take what we want away from these discussions.  I think that if you read my posts, at least, you will see that I haven't really addressed Ricci at all, or if I did it was tangential at best.

The term "thread" at this point is admittedly a bit muddy, I suppose, but if I start with your post to which I am now replying and follow the chain of comments from there back to the "root" post by clicking on "parent" I count 23 comments in this thread and only 1 of them (that I noticed anyway) mentioned Ricci and that was by ML.  The root post was by Centinel and was a generic anti-Sotomayer post that didn't focus on Ricci.  None of my posts in this "thread", or any of the other "threads" in this diary was intended to address Ricci.

I was focused on two points: (1) that "Affirmative Action" was created by (Presidential) Executive Orders and (2) it is therefore not technically a Law (at the federal level).  Everything I was discussing was on a Federal level and NOT on a state level and most definitely NOT on Ricci.  I have been talking about the President, Congress, the Supreme Court, the US Constitution, and the US Federal Code ... none of which has any bearing or relationship to Connecticut or Ricci. Other than the highest level overview of the Ricci case I have not looked into it at all, nor was it ever my intent to address it directly.

Now that I understand your context, I understand the relvance of your post to what you believed I was discussing even though I wasn't.  :)  It's kind of funny that we can get to a point this deep in the "thread" and find that we are each talking about completely different things.  Scary, actually.

Anyway, suffice it to say that none on my comments in this diary were ever intended to address Ricci directly.

 

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Let's see...

You said:

Sorry, ML, but Affirmative Action = Judicial Activism ...

it is not a law, it is an executive order being bolstered by activist judges like Sotomayer.

This was your first comment in the thread regarding Affirmative Action. Every post you made before that one was specifically about Sotomayor. But now you claim you were  really just talking about AA at the federal level. OK, whatever.

Regardless, I have now shown that you were completely wrong in every possible way with that statement I quoted above. AA is a law. Sotomayor was being the antithesis of an activist judge by upholding the CT law, rather than siding with Ricci because it was the empathetic thing to do. So there you go.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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WTF are you talking about?

I would recount each and every post I have made in the diary to prove my point as it applies to your Affirmative Action Statutes post but that would be a colossal waste of time, so in the interests of time please be specific and point to any posts I made in this diary that were:

  1. Talking about Ricci specifically in any substantive detail, or

  2. Discussing Affirmative Action outside the specific context of (a) the President, (b) the Congress, (c) the Supreme Court, (d) the US Constitution, or (e) the US Federal Code.

Can we at least agree that when I am talking about something within the context of the President, the Congress, the Supreme Court, the US Constitution, or the US Federal Code that I am NOT talking about State Law?

I have merely been challenging ML's blanket assertion that Affirmative Action = Law, and my discussion (as evidenced by the specifics of my argument) has been limited to Federal Law unless you can point me to a post to the contrary.

Based on the link you provided above I freely admit that Affirmative Action has laws defining it in the State of Connecticut.  Does that help?  I admit you are correct on that point even though I never intended to address that specific point?

 

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WTF I am talking about

You stated in no unclear terms that Sotomayor is an activist judge. You strongly implied that she is such as related to AA. By showing that AA laws exist in CT, I believe that I have successfully shown that she is not an activist judge as related to AA. Do you still stand by your statement? If so, can you provide any evidence at all to back it up, or are you simply making an uninformed statement of opinion? The words "put up or shut up" come to mind. :P

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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OK, fair enough.

By showing that AA laws exist in CT, I believe that I have successfully shown that she is not an activist judge as related to AA.

Well now you are forcing me to actually read the Ricci case, something I was obviously wanting to avoid (because of the time required).  All I will admit at this point is that there is merit to your position of sufficient import that I have to now familiarize with the specifics of the case before I can make an assessment to either agree or disagree with this assertion.

I'll look into it further and get back to you.

In any event your observation and argument are only applicable to rulings related to Connecticut, or any other State which has explicit Affirmative Action statutes, agreed?   In other words any rulings related to Federal Law or States with no such Affirmative Action statutes can still be used to substantiate the claim, correct?

Geeze, you people never make anything easy, do you?  :)

Lest there be any doubt, I will admit that the balance on this issue is currently tilting in SL's favor and unless and until I come back with more information I tentatively, and narrowly, concede his point.

 

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I was looking through this Connecticut stuff you pointed to ...

The following is an easy read and provides a nice summary of the issue:

Affirmative Action: What is it, where did it come from?

I found this bit at the end particularly interesting:

Today, a narrow majority of the Court seems to be indicating that taking race into account to break down the patterns of segregation can be as bad as segregation itself.

However, the government has not been totally disqualified from considering race in responding to racism. What the Court has done is apply greater scrutiny when deciding whether particular affirmative action initiatives are sufficiently narrowly tailored to meet the compelling governmental interest of equal enjoyment of life and liberty by the citizens of the United States.

 

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Why so hateful, ML?

I haven't really complained about any of these things, only clarified what they are.

Overturning the Ricci case would essentially burn down the civil rights act, something I am sure you would be delighted to do.

Why do you think I want to overturn the civil rights act?  I have never said anything close to that.  I have absolutely no problem with, and I support 110% the concept of Equal Opportunity.

On the other hand I fundamentally object to the concept of Affirmative Action on the grounds that (a) it is by its very nature discriminatory and (b) the well known adage that two wrongs don't make a right!

 

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Terribly sorry my precious

 Affirmative Action has been a two sided affair. It has accomplished some good things and some bad things. 

 (Since you stand with Rush, it's hard not to think that you affirm his latest views and comments, specifically that Obama hates white people. The clip has aired repeatedly on the TeeVee. Not so sure Rush stands behind the Civil Rights Act 110%)

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Was, not is

Affirmative action is constitutional.  I know this because the SCOTUS says so (and they decide what is constitutional and what isn't).

To that end, I fully expect any inferior court to hold similarly, regardless of how bad the original decision was. Dred Scott v. Sandford, Wickard v. Fillburn, Kelo v. City of New London, and even Roe v. Wade were wrongly decided.  However, I'd be very upset if any district court judge decided exactly that absent direction from the SCOTUS.

To do so would throw the entire legal system into chaos with "rogue" judges deciding for themselves what was constitutional, which would require just about every question dealing directly or indirectly with the Constitution to be heard by the SCOTUS.  Over and over and over again.

A truely activist judge would be one who refused to uphold any precedent, not one who follows bad precedent.  Have issue with the person who makes the precedent, not who follows it.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Let us please not put words in my mouth.

Affirmative action is constitutional.  I know this because the SCOTUS says so (and they decide what is constitutional and what isn't).

I said Affirmative Action is not a law, and it isn't.  Please show me the "Affirmative Action" statute or Constitutional Amendment.  You can't, because it doesn't exist.  Affirmative action is nothing more than a set of Executive Orders, not laws. *

And nothing in that statement says anything about whether or not it is Constitutional, right?

-----------------------------------------------------

* And please don't confuse Affirmative Action with Equal Opportunity as ML did above.

 

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And herein lies the problem

Sotomayer and Obama both subscribe to the concept of "legal realism ", it is a nonsensical abstraction of American law.

They were indoctrinated into this legal ideology at Harvard when they were introduced to "critical legal studies" , and "critical race theory".

Again, these are radical departures from the rule of law and suggests that law is utterly indeterminate.

That is ludicrous , has always been frowned upon by serious legal minds both liberal and conservative - until now.

It is no way to think if you are the POTUS, or even more so for a supreme court justice!

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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FYI

 Sotomayor was not 'indoctrinated' at Harvard.

 She went to Princeton and then to Yale.

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Wherever, Obama was indoctrinated at Harvard...

...and his empathetic friend at Yale then. Happy now?

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Clarence Thomas hails empathy

 during his Congressional Testimony.

 "I can walk in the shoes of the people who are affected by what the Court does," says Thomas, in a quote that surfaced on Friday in print but not video. "You know, on my current court I have occasion to look out the window that faces C Street, and there are converted buses that bring in the criminal defendants to our criminal justice system, bus load after bus load. And you look out and you say to yourself, and I say to myself almost every day, 'But for the grace of God there go I.'"

 "With respect to the underlying concerns and feelings about people being left out, about our society not addressing all the problems of people, I have those concerns," he admitted. "I will take those to the grave with me. I am concerned about the kids on those buses I told you. I am concerned about the kids who didn't have the strong grandfather and strong grandparents to help them out of what I would consider a terrible, terrible fate. But you carry that feeling with you. You carry that strength with you. You carry those experiences with you." 

 The link goes to the Huffington Post, complete with video, so I won't poison your eyes by making you click there.

………… parent

What's the point, of course he does, he's human too.

We all are, but CT would never let those things affect him on the bench.

As you can see from my previous post, Obama has called for, and found in Sotomayer, a person who is of the mind that being emapthetic on the bench is okay. It is most certainly not.

BIG difference ML.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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....it's still legally

....it's still legally binding, coming from the constitution, the same place that says the powers Congress has to make legally binding laws.

-----------------------------------------------------
"Dwight Howard is awful, he's barely made any jump shots"
"Ya, he made not have made many 'jump shots' but he has so many dunks and layups."

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Not exactly.

Executive Orders are binding (but not strictly legally so, but only because they were issued by the President) on the Executive Branch of the US Government, sure, but anywhere else?  Not so much.  These Executive Orders describe the conduct and actions required of the departments within the Executive Branch, but they have no legal binding on private institutions as far as I know.

Private industry is legally bound to support Equal Opportunity Laws because, well, they're laws.  But despite Obama's recent excesses with respect to the Automotive Industry, a President has no authority to compel any private institutions to do anything other than follow the law as defined and passed by Congress.  Congress has only passed laws requiring Equal Opportunity, they have never, to my knowledge, passed laws giving preferential treatment to any specific groups. *

While many private companies and institutions voluntarily adopt Affirmative Action programs within their internal processes they are NOT legally bound to do so.

------------------------------------------------

* I guess one possible exception might be the recent Hate Crimes legislation but that's nothing but a tangent here.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Please spare us your ethno-hypocrisy!

Let's just get something clear right here and now.

It is liberals, and judges just like Sotomayer who want to usurp the constitution in order to accommodate a political agenda that otherwise would not fly, by ever broadening "their interpretation" of it.

Conservatives want the constitution to be the rule of lw, and justice to be blind.

In what can only be seen as ironic given their rhetoric, it is the always social engineering left who instituted, and wishes to further racial preferences and separate the people into groups in America.

Conservatives want individual liberties for all and success to be achieved by merit.

Conservatives believe there is no place for "empathy" on the bench, especially on the supreme court. But Bill has a valid point when he asked;

...why the empathetic Judge Sotomayor has no empathy for Frank Ricci, a white man, again making it glaringly obvious that 'empathy' for whites is less desirable, whereas empathy for non-whites is.

As for this ignorant observation;

 As the ethnic demographics of our country change into an ever more melty melting pot of diverse cultural backgrounds, the right seems to be cringing with fear that minorities would have an equal say in the laws that govern them.

It is conservatives who strive for equality, it is liberals and the left who continually aim to tilt the scale more and more to suit their liking.

It is abundantly evident Sotomayer, though because of the current political balance in Washington will likely be confirmed, is a marginal candidate.

Sotomayor's nomination is teaching us more about the right's temperament than we are learning about the nominee's.

Actually it gives us the most insight into Obama, and who he really is. ;-/

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Great Empathy

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/05/flashback-george-hw-bush-on-c...

"I have followed this man's career for some time," said President George H.W. Bush of Clarence Thomas in July 1991. "He is a delightful and warm, intelligent person who has great empathy and a wonderful sense of humor."

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

So

Bush was commenting on the person.

Obama said he wants that in the Judge.

Or are you suggesting Bush was looking for someone on the bench who would be delightful and warm too. LOL!

;-)

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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The constitution to be the rule of law......

 And who interprets the words? You or me?

 If I say justice, you say liberal bloviation. If I say civil rights, you say white prosecution. If I say equal rights, you say stealing.

 If I say "We the people", you say collectivism.

 If you would  take one second, one moment, one instant to objectively look at Sotomayor's opinions, you would be shocked to discover that her thinking is somewhat friendly to your views.

 That is why it is so glaringly obvious that Sotomayor's nomination so far has revealed much more truth about the right's instantaneous and rabid hydrophobic reaction devoid of any pretense of objectivity.

 The perception of white victimhood and the ensuing shrill shrieks and whining from the right is more than revealing of a collective effort to rush to judgement as bullies and mocksters en masse.

 All anyone needs do is say the word civil rights or social justice and you guys start foaming at the mouth like Pavlov's dogs and any notion of  objectivity goes flying out the window.

 It's as if someone took the sign off the drinking fountain that said 'coloreds only', just yesterday.

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Yawn...We've read it over and over in your last half dozen posts

Consider this last one your magnum opus and impress us with some fresh material.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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What you don't seem to get here ...

If you would  take one second, one moment, one instant to objectively look at Sotomayor's opinions, you would be shocked to discover that her thinking is somewhat friendly to your views.

is that I don't want a judge to be "friendly" to the views of any side, including mine.  I want them to be objective.  This comment say more about your views and what you consider to be truly important (i.e. getting judges in place to support the views of different groups) than it does about ours, why else would you have thought this to be potentially attractive point?

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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friendly to your views

 in that she is objective.

 I am asking that you be objective about  her objectivity.

 You yourself are rushing to judgement here in a rash and non-objective way.

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No, he agrees that a judge should not interject their personal

bias' and beliefs in the courtroom.

It is evident Ms Sotomayer is true to her legal realism beliefs, and does so with great regularity.

We are of two minds here ML, pandering to our objective sensibilities will only broaden that reality.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Sorry

But decreeing that something is evident does not make it so. A bit of evidence might be in order. So far all you have put forward is one case, which I have already demonstrated is an example of Sotomayor following a clear precedent, the very antithesis of judicial activism. Anyone on the left , right ,or in between who has actually examined Sotomayor's case record has come to the conclusion that she is a perfectly mainstream judge as far as her judicial opinions are concerned. From that last link:

In sum, in an eleven-year career on the Second Circuit, Judge Sotomayor has participated in roughly 100 panel decisions involving questions of race and has disagreed with her colleagues in those cases (a fair measure of whether she is an outlier) a total of 4 times.  Only one case (Gant) in that entire eleven years actually involved the question whether race discrimination may have occurred.  (In another case (Pappas) she dissented to favor a white bigot.)  She participated in two other panels rejecting district court rulings agreeing with race-based jury-selection claims.  Given that record, it seems absurd to say that Judge Sotomayor allows race to infect her decisionmaking.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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No, she's done by virtue of her disregard for the rule of law

Look, I submit she is unqualified, de facto.

The very legal ideology that attracted Obama to her in the first place is the eventual disqualifier.

It's the bogus “critical legal theory" that the ultra liberal elite law schools have been peaching for little more than a decade. It’s this theory that is abhorrent to the rule of law that both Obama and his minion ascribe to, and now seek to put into practice.

Critical theory suggests there is no objectivity in the law. Legal positions are based upon one’s background, ethnicity, wealth (or lack thereof), etc.  The law is just an equalizer –- a power tool to be used by various groups against others, and the key to good legal judgment is “empathy” with the poor, the downtrodden, etc. 

The right must understand that if this theory has been taught for a decade in our nation’s most prestigious liberl law schools, it will have political consequences, as does the election.

The GOP needs to stop focusing on every little political fight and start to care, as the democrats have, about the culture.

This was not the pick of a moderate, nor of one who wants to protect and defend the Constitution, rather it is one from the shrewd want to be shaper of some new socialist American society, as he envisions it.

The fact that Obama would appoint such a clearly unsuitable person is no surprise really, liberals like him know they can not advance their social agenda through conventional legislative means, so they look to bypass that Constitutional obstacle by having the courts make law through judicial fiat.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Since your views

 come from pretty far to the right, it is not surprising that even this moderate judge would seem  unqualified to you.

 You may not acknowledge that your perspective is at the far end of the spectrum, since it seems normal to you. Your views make even those on the center right seem 'liberal'.

 Since you are frothing at the mouth now, I can't image what would have happened if Obama had appointed an actual liberal to the courts. You would be have to hospitalized for hyperventilation. =)

 

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Oh, only you could claim she's not a liberal...Thats so funny...

Let's look at some cases like you have asked;

Didden v. Village of Port Chester - probably the worst property right decisions on record. You claim Kelo, however, the majority opinion by Justice John Paul Stevens also emphasized that "the mere pretext of a public purpose, when its actual purpose was to bestow a private benefit," was not enough to count as a "public use." It is difficult to imagine a more clearly pretextual taking than this one.Didden and Bologna's property would not have been condemned if it weren't for their refusal to pay Wasser the money he sought to extort from them. Wasser's plan for the property was to build a Walgreen's pharmacy on it, which is virtually identical to the previous owners' plan to build a CVS . There was no general public benefit that Wasser's plan would provide that would not have been equally well achieved by allowing Didden and Bologna to keep their property and carry out their plan to put a CVS there.

Ricci v. DeStefano - We all know the deal here.

The full 2nd Circuit, including Sotomayor, recently reheard the case of Maher Arar, a Canadian who contends that U.S. officials sent him to Syria in 2002 to be tortured. A divided panel had dismissed Arar's case. The decision from the full court should provide clues about Sotomayor's views concerning government efforts to combat terrorism.

Hellenic American Neighborhood Action Committee v. City of New York - Sotomayor was so eager to rule against the Giuliani administration that she overlooked an obvious roadblock: as a federal judge, she had no jurisdiction to hear the case. An appeals court later ruled that the case belonged in the state court system. Sotomayor should never have delivered a verdict. This leaves two disturbing options: either she doesn't understand the difference between a federal and state court, or she knew she didn't have jurisdiction, but was so "troubled" that she thought she could sneak this one through.

Archie v. Grand Central Partnership - Sotomayor's overbroad interpretation of labor law speaks volumes about her distaste for free-labor markets. When adults consent to work for free, that's not exploitation — it's volunteerism! By harping on the company's profits, alleged abuses and executive paychecks, she's not interpreting the law — she's demonizing a legitimate business, painting it as a heartless, slave-driving cartel. In reality, this was a partnership aiming to help the homeless, an activity made more difficult due to Sotomayor's meddling.

Krimstock v. Kelly - Sotomayor's decision seems reasonable enough, but her reasoning reveals a paranoid distrust of law enforcement. In her opinion, she questions police officers' ability to act as fair brokers to the accused, citing the "risk of erroneous seizure" and even mentioning the police department's financial interest in seizing property. It's a bizarre implication for a federal judge to make — doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the justice system, does it?

Clarrett v. NFL - Yet another pro-labor decision. When it comes to cases in which labor law is in dispute, whatever the merits, smart money says Sotomayor sides with the unions. In fact, legal scholars have slammed this case, calling it an overbroad application of the legal loophole that allows antitrust exemptions. A St. John's Law Review article dedicated to the case accused Sotomayor of "tipping the scales of the delicate balance between federal labor law and antitrust law too far in favor of labor law."

Riverkeeper v. EPA - Sotomayor's decision was overturned by the Supreme Court , which found cost-benefit analysis a-okay. Clearly she was determined to side with the activists, in spite of the law, and she grabbed at straws to do so. Who cares that the EPA didn't explain why it used cost-benefit analysis? The Clean Water Act left the policy process open-ended for a reason — to allow the EPA to regulate without micromanagement from Congress. Or activist judges.

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Cool

 I didn't have time to read the first case, but the second one is encouraging since some liberals are concerned that she is too moderate!

 

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Tell your buddies they have nothing to worry about...

a b s o l u t e l y nothing.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Didden

Didden and Bologna's property would not have been condemned if it weren't for their refusal to pay Wasser the money he sought to extort from them. 

Another view :

While Didden's backers say that Wasser's offer was extortion, it looks like it might have been an innocuous settlement proposal--standard fare for legal disputes. Unless Didden and Bologna could prove their side of this "he said, he said" spat (and they could not), Judge Sotomayor was correct to conclude that Wasser's "voluntary" attempt to settle the dispute "was neither an unconstitutional exaction in the form of extortion nor an equal protection violation."

You also claim:

Wasser's plan for the property was to build a Walgreen's pharmacy on it, which is virtually identical to the previous owners' plan to build a CVS.

But:

First, Wasser's Walgreens would have encompassed a centrally located lot that was left out of Didden's CVS plan. According to court documents, Didden's CVS proposal meant that the centrally located lot "would remain undeveloped and isolated from any future development possibility."

And also...

Second, the statute of limitations for Didden and Bologna to challenge the Port Chester redevelopment project had passed. Didden and Bologna knew as far back as 1999 that the city could condemn their property for the "public purpose" of redevelopment. Under New York state law, they had three years within which to challenge the city's decision. Yet they did not file suit until January 2004.

I'm sure you agree that the statute of limitations was important in the case of that "liar" Lily Ledbetter, but apparently not in this case, eh?

Look, it's fine to disagree with the way Sotomayor decided this case. I very well might disagree as well, though I don't know enough of the details to say for sure. But to use this unanimous decision as some kind of evidence that she has crazy judicial views is silly, because there are obviously quite a few perfectly valid reasons to decide the way she did.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I see

You remind me quite a bit of Red_Wing, who used to post here quite a bit but hasn't in a while. The basic driving force behind many of his arguments, and yours, is that liberalism is bad. It's just a firmly entrenched view that requires no factual basis to back it up, so it becomes very tiresome to argue against. He was also prone to copy and paste other right-wing bloggers words verbatim without acknowledging them.

You:

Critical theory suggests there is no objectivity in the law. Legal positions are based upon one’s background, ethnicity, wealth (or lack thereof), etc.  The law is just an equalizer –- a power tool to be used by various groups against others, and the key to good legal judgment is “empathy” with the poor, the downtrodden, etc. 

The right must understand that if this theory has been taught for a decade in our nation’s most prestigious liberl law schools, it will have political consequences, as does the election.

Andrea Tantaros :

The basis of critical theory is that there is no objectivity in the law. Legal positions are based upon one’s background, ethnicity, wealth (or lack thereof), etc.  The law is just an equalizer –- a power tool to be used by various groups and the key to good legal judgment is “empathy” with the poor, the downtrodden, etc.  The first commandment is: don’t let the powerful and rich use the law to their advantage.

The right must understand that if this theory has been taught for a decade in our nation’s most prestigious law schools, it will have political consequences.

At least you reworded one phrase at the very beginning, and added a few words at the very end, but still, this should be acknowledged and linked to. I'm not trying to be an ass, but there are rules , or at the very least, etiquette, that really should be followed when possible.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Think about what you're suggesting for a moment.

To suggest I have a problem with liberalism is an understatement. But that is a given, just as you show a very definite proclivity towards the liberal viewpoint.

GR is a ardent Conservative, ML is a radical liberal anarchist who reviles everything right of welfare.

So, what is the point? I do understand it must be difficult to consistently have to defend the liberal viewpoint though.

You asked for a more detailed viewpoint on Sotomayer, I provided my view and added some posts of cases that cause me concern, and you just faded.

I will not stand down from the America I believe in, the defense of freedom, self responsibility and liberty, sorry.

In terms of linking quotes, I will do that. I try in many of my posts to add an abundance of links, in others I am less energetic, depends on the given moment I suppose.

Oh, just as I am not BR, I am also not rightwing either. I have no problem for Ender to verify my IP address or however they ID people.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Here's a suggestion, Centinel:

 Don't make the mistake of thinking that President Obama is a liberal, because he's really not.  

He's not even a Progressive, either, and the fact that he appointed a Latina woman to SCOTUS means nothing.

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I disagree.

He is a egoist, and as such will sacrifice everything if need be, people, integrity, even ideology as we have seen, for the sake of Obama himself.

Make no mistake however, this cat is a raging liberal with a radical agenda.

I mean look at our country compared to a little over 4 short months ago!

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

………… parent

Sorry to burst your bubble, Centinel,

 but this:

"Make no mistake, however, this cat is a raging liberal with a radical agenda"

is absolutely crazy.  He is NOT a liberal, or even a progressive.  I can agree that Obama's somewhat of an egoist who, like the vast majority of other politiciains, is clearly out for himself--and is kind of machiavellian, but LIBERAL..RADICAL...no way!   

Also, Centinel:  Do you really and truly believe that the country has changed since Obama came into office?  Hmmmmmm.....I don't think so.

 

………… parent

Not changed?

Have you looked at the debt level yet?

Have you seen the world reaction to all this spending?

When was the last time you saw the President trying to run several US Industries simultaneously (i.e. the financial and automotive institutions)?

On the other hand ...

On most of the actual policy issues that the Democrats ran against, you're actually right.  We haven't changed much at all.  Obama keep vindicating Bush's policies left and right.  :)

 

Meta: This post is a light-hearted but serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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OK I can see how

the Federal Government's interventions seems scary to conservatives.  In isolation, they would seem scary to this liberal too.

But the administration's rationale is that we are in a situation of emergency, we cannot let these industries go bankrupt and we can't let the big banks simply fail.  If you can agree with that premise, the second part is that the public has understandably lost confidence in the private sector anything goes deregulation culture that caused this mess.  Therefore, only the Federal Government is can step in to clean up the mess.  Please tell me the reasoning makes sense even if you don't agree with it.

Obama certainly could have gone further and nationalized the banks, which better enconomists than I thought was a better idea.  He has shown no appetite for fundamentally restructuring the relationship between business and government.  A few years of 3-4% growth and almost everthing will go back to where it was before 2008.  With perhaps slightly higher marginal rates, lower executive bonuses and more competent government agencies.

In a sense, you might be thankful he isn't that much of a "liberal"

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I beg to differ somewhat, missliberties.

As true as this:

 "As the right turns to chortle, mock, bull and smear anyone with whom they disagree"

is, there are also elements on the Left who do likewise.

Also, there are elements on  both the Right and the Left who brook no dissent, and often tend to marginalize and isolate people who disagree with them, too.  I've had personal experience like that with BOTH  sides.

 

 

 

 

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Absolutism

 on either side of the political spectrum is unhealthy.

 The fundamentalist pro-life crowd who refuses to compromise in any instance, that believes even birth control, is akin to murdering a child is one extreme example of the unreasonableness of absolutist views.

 The left's insistence that a Gitmo detainee like KSM a 'known terrorist, that the last administration neglected its lawful duty  of gathering legal evidence that would hold up in a  court or a military tribunal, should be released, if he can't be 'legally'  charged, is another example of unreasonable absolutism.

………… parent

As true as

this:

"Absolutism on either side of the political spectrum is  unhealthy"

is, it does, unfortunately happen.   

………… parent

I don't think she is attempting to give herself a free pass...

Like I said before, I think she was taking the good faith effort to be as objective as one can be as a given.  That good faith effort to be objective is inconsistent with the concept of a "free pass" to indulge biases.

The's say you were the coach of a football team and had two players competing for the starting spot-- quarterback A who considers throwing any interceptions to be intolerable, and quarterback B who recognizes that it's impossible not to throw a few interceptions per season.  In the real world, both quarterbacks tend to throw about 10 interceptions per year-- their performance is the same, their effect on winning and losing is the same, and that's what counts to the team performance.  That one has a pragmatic view and the other has a purist view of his own performance counts for little.  Now maybe you have a personal preference for the perfectionism of the purist, and would prefer quarterback A to be your starter, but would It be wrong for another person to prefer quarterback B?  And if it would not be wrong to prefer B, wouldn't you have to admit that B is objectively qualified to be the starter, even though he is not your preference?

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And like I said before ...

Like I said before, I think she was taking the good faith effort to be as objective as one can be as a given.  That good faith effort to be objective is inconsistent with the concept of a "free pass" to indulge biases.

perhaps.

Perhaps, as in I don't want to get into a long drawn out exchange over whether she is, or is not, already putting in a "good faith effort".

But since you insist on pressing the point, I now formally reject your premise simply based on your own observation above: a "good faith effort to be objective" is inconsistent with the concept of trying to give one's self a "free pass to indulge biases."

If the two are fundamentally incompatible, which they of course are, then the mere fact that she is trying to give herself a free pass to indulge in biases (as I have already shown) is, in and of itself, evidence that she is NOT putting forth a good faith effort to be objective.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  So I reject your argument and conclusions because they are based on a false premise.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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You have shown no such thing.

she is trying to give herself a free pass to indulge in biases (as I have already shown)

You have shown no such thing.   And since you have not shown this, you also have not shown that she does not intend to make a good faith effort to be objective.

In fact, a person who is open and honest about the true nature of objectivity as it exists in the real world obviously is opening themselves up to criticism from those who are willing to spin a bit of self-analysis into real weakness, whereas a person who claims to be a paragon of objectivity apparently gets that vaunted free pass that you like to talk about so much.  So your guesses at her motivation for making the statement in question don't even make a lot of sense.  If one truly wanted to indulge one's biases, they typically would not want to admit to being biased.  The classic example is the person who would say "I'm not a racist, but [insert racist statement here]."  They indulge their biases by not admitting that they have them.

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Well, actually I have ...

and the fact that you don't want to acknowledge it doesn't change it one bit.

But I prefer to avoid a long drawn out exchange that won't change anyone's minds on this point, so let us just agree to disagree.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Yeah, same here Stinerman

 Only I don't just tend to prefer Originalists, its my number one issue as far as national politics go. But like you said Originalists weren't on the table for Obama ( though Akhil Amer would have been a great suprise), so there's one reason I didn't vote for Obama

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Wouldn't that be something

a liberal originalist (though I'm familiar with Amer since you've mentioned him before).

I won't deny that the men in red are better on judges than the men in blue, however, the former are wrong on just about everything else.

You will also recall that I didn't vote for Obama either...because I knew he'd play his "why can't we all get along" moderate schtick much longer than I cared to be party to it.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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I miss our yellow bars

just sayin'

…………

Me too-does John have a public email-we should all send one. ;-)

n/t

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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I will contact him

He is on Facebook (as am I and a few others).  I know he's preparing for a kid and building a new house, so he's busy.

I'll contact him directly.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Agreed, absotutely!

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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"The Great Ethanol Scam"

"In layman's terms, ethanol causes pinpoint leaks in the fuel system; when leaking fuel catches your engine on fire"

Like motorists, if landscaping tool owners put gasoline with more than 10% ethanol in their small engines, that immediately voids any factory warranties. In the case of the Lexus recall, using just a 10% ethanol blend was found to be destroying many of these engines also.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

…………

A few days old

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

…………

Why hasn't George Bush been talking to North Korea?

We all know the problem with NK is that George won't talk to them, right?  So here we are again, NK is acting up and once again George STILL isn't talking to them.  How is this crisis ever going to come to an end unless George talks to them, right?  Only diplomacy through G. W. Bush will be an effective mechanism for getting NK to give up it's nuclear ambitions.

 

Meta: This post is illustrating the absurdity of the left by imitating them.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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See, now THIS is what I'm talkin' about!

Obama's team is all over this North Korea thing. They're planning to enter into emergency deliberations.

US Ambassador to UN: North Korea Will 'Pay a Price' *

The U.S. Ambassador told U.S. television networks Tuesday that the United Nations Security Council is working on a "strong resolution with teeth." But she did not specify what additional sanctions were under discussion.

An emergency session of the 15-member United Nations Security Council, including the United States, Russia and China, on Monday unanimously condemned the nuclear test. The Security Council says it is preparing a strong response to Pyongyang.

They plan to get together with the UN so that they can jointly resolve to give NK a "stern talking to."  I bet they even plan to write the whole thing up on paper before they send it to them.

That'll show 'em that they can't mess with us.  We've got a bureaucracy!

--------------------------------------------------

* NOTE: "Pay the price" = "having to endure the mind numbing machinations of the UN and then having to read a strongly worded letter which may even be written in French."

 

Meta: This post is illustrating the absurdity of the left by imitating them.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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We want allies in the effort

 to deter the little dictator. The effort to garner as much possible support from the world to put pressure on N. Korea, is the first step.

 

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Yea? To what end?

Sending them a letter.  Pfft.

P.S.

Why are we even having this conversation?  It's not like Obama was unaware of the fact the Bush refused to talk to them.  I can only assume that he immediately corrected that problem once he took office, right?  And once we were talking to them the whole problem would just go away on its own.  NK would like us again and peace would reign in the region.  Has Obama been derelict in his foreign policy duties?

P.P.S.

The effort to garner as much possible support from the world to put pressure on N. Korea, is the first step.

Gee, isn't this exactly what Bush did with Iraq and all those resolutions?  You better be careful, you know where THAT can lead!  :)

 

Meta: This post is serious comment, except for the P.S. which is mocking the left's previous rhetoric.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Be serious

 Bush put N. Korea on his axis of evil list. The policy was 'we don't talk to our enemies', it emboldens them. John Bolton believed that talking to your enemies was equal to surrender and appeasement. Remember?

 N. Korea is impossible to deal with. I wouldn't trust them on anything. China doesn't want a flood of North Korean refugees flocking across the 800 mile border.

 Let me just say that I am pleased that we have people like Susan Rice and Hillary Clinton on the job. Even so N. Korea is unpredictable. I think we should give the little dictator an American movie, as a gift. He is said to adore movies and pizza.

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But I thought the world would love us now?!?!?

You mean even now that we have the Obamassiah in the White House that NK still doesn't like us?

<Exasperated Shrieks> Oh, the humanity.  </Exasperated Shrieks>

:)

 

Meta: This post is not a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Like it or not

 the world community is more willing to work with the US now, then it was when Bush was in office.

 Bush slapped his allies in the face repeatedly, which is why the coalition of the willing was a very smallish contingency.  

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Heh, tell that to the guys trying to find new homes ...

for the Gitmo detainees.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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The first step...lol

What ML, they shot off 5 missles, and detinated 2 nuclear weapons.

Do you want one to land on Hawaii or Alaska before you get your head out of your arse?

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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That's a stupid comment

 "Do you want one to land on Hawaii or Alaska before you get your head out of your arse?"

 

 

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Hey look, they fired off another one, thats 6 now ML!

n/t

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Oh ya, look Barack, those missles are so pretty - that's 6 now

Awe, those cute little North Korean's, expressing their national pride like that.

Well, I guess I'm off to the UN to write them another reminder note....

... dum di dum...I wonder if Sarah Palin saw that one...dooddle di dum...?

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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They say that fighting a 3

They say that fighting a 3 theater war is hard to do
Now I know, I know that it's true
Don't say that this is the end
Instead of fighting a 3 theater war, I wish that we were making up again

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/05/27/S-Korea-joins-PSI-North-irate/UPI...

North Korea said Wednesday South Korea's decision to fully participate in the U.S.-led Proliferation Security Initiative is a "declaration of war" against it.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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To bad we have a community orginizer as CIC

...in times like these.

Romney could of fixed the economy, McCain could of won these wars, Obama is...well he is great with a teleprompter.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Yeah

And we wouldn't even have to fix the economy or even be involved in these wars if Gore had been president instead of Bush.

And I have as much proof to back up that statement as either of yours. :P

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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True ...

And we wouldn't even have to fix the economy or even be involved in these wars if Gore had been president instead of Bush.

because by now he would have us living a middle ages style agrarian existence to "save the planet".  A hovel in every yard, and no cars in every garage!

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment with a touch of humor.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Meh

Well, since your Meta footnote indicates that this is a serious comment, I will reply with a serious answer: No he wouldn't. Not even close.

And now for the not-so-serious proof. Since you are of the opinion that Gore is an "environmentalist" purely for the purposes of making himself rich, it should be obvious that his goal would not be to drastically reduce consumption of energy, but to redirect the consumption from fossil fuels to the alternative energy industries that he is heavily invested in.

It wouldn't be a middle age agrarian existence, it would be a city-centric society with solar panels on every apartment building, and publicly-owned communal electric vehicles in every public garage!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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LOL

OK.  That could cetainly be an alternate scenario, I guess.  I'm not sure that I find that description any more attractive, though.  :)

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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I will repeat myself

Other members will recall me saying this:

The world is a much, much safer place than you think.

North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, and Afghanistan are just about the last things on my mind.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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A fascinating match up

Ted Olson who argued for the Bush side of Bush v Gore, will be going to bat in California for gay and lesbian rights to enter into contracts of marriage. Partnering with David Soelis who argued the Gore side of Bush v Gore to repeal Prop 8.

 

 Here's an interview with Ted Olson by Bryon York.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Ted...

  

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Obama will bring european VAT to bear on Americans

Well, first we hear the 95% tax cut for all Americans, even to those who pay no federal income tax , well, that is just flatly a lie now.

With cap and trade and soda "pop" tax and... (Pop H/T to Brutus14)

...but now what we will be seeing is the coming of one of the biggest political battles in American history .

I believe Obama wants to pursue a value added tax scheme like European socialist countries have, I suppose we knew it was coming ...

...but never dreamed he would bankrupt our country so quickly !

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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On pop

Don't you southerners call any carbonated drink "coke"?

We midwesterners are lazy.  "Pop" has one syllable; "soda" has two.  End of story.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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If you're fixin to look for the answer

Yes, southerners call carbonated drinks "coke"

Someone even posted a link and has brother that lives in the south...

http://swordscrossed.org/diary/20090526/mid-week-open-thread#comment-111496

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Now now...ok let me set the record straight.

The short answer is a resounding no.

Old school southerners call carbonated soft drinks, soft drinks.

Now beyond that the younger generations call them either pop or soda, or more likely now days, by brand. Give me a Mountain Dew, or I'd like a Orange Crush please.

But, if you're talking colas, yes you hear folks call cola, coke, more often than not. (I'm a Pepsi man myself)

Hope this helps ya all.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Oregonians too

Call it Coke.   That's where I learned it.   Then I moved south and found a bigger variety of terms.   

I still use Coke.   And Kleenex ;-)

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The Great Pop vs. Soda Controversy

http://popvssoda.com:2998/

It's called pop!

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Yummy for the liberal tummy ;-)

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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That's pretty good

 

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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The Obama Administration is such a joke ...

Robert Gibbs gets a lot of laughs in his briefings

The United States is facing its biggest financial crisis in ages. North Korea is blowing up nukes. Dick Cheney warns us of the "dangers that have not gone away." And there are still wars raging in Afghanistan and Iraq.

But over in the White House press briefing room, it’s a veritable laugh riot.

I guess Obama really takes things seriously, eh?  :)

 

Meta: This post is not a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Lazyweb

Does anyone know where I can find historical congressional district maps?  I'd like to see how the districts have changed over time.

I haven't had much luck.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Don't know about online

But there's a book: Historical Atlas of United States Congressional Districts, 1789-1983 - available at Amazon for a mere $750! The good news is that it is also in the reference section of my local library, so you may have luck trying at yours.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Mine as well

I had hoped that the Columbus Metro Library would live up to it's "best in the US" billing...and it did!

Thanks!

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Let's not forget about the big fat liar Nancy Pelosi!

Rep. Pete Hoekstra hits the nail square on its head when talking about Nancy's "problem with the truth" ...

Hoekstra: Pelosi Needs to Show Evidence the CIA Misled Her

You've called Pelosi's claims that the CIA misled her "outrageous accusations." But in November of last year, after a report came out that said the CIA ran an air drug interception program that downed several private planes—including a n attack on a missionary plan e in Peru in 2001 that killed American Veronica B owers and her 7-month-old daughter — you said, "[The CIA] told us this was the first time that anything happened out of the ordinary, that all guidelines in the past had been meticulously followed, and that was a lie."

Yep.

So you've said before yourself that the CIA has misled Congress.

Yep.

Why , then, is Pelosi's claim that the CIA misled her "outrageous"?

Because when I made the claim, guess what: I had an IG report. I was quoting from—not quoting from literally—but from the inspector general's report from the CIA. Their own watchdog organization said they had lied and misled Congress. Look, the difference now with Speaker Pelosi is she has presented no evidence at all that there has been a pattern of deceit over a period of seven years. So I think that's the fundamental difference. The CIA IG had issued the report, and we followed up on it. We verified it; we wanted to hold the CIA accountable. She's accused them of lying, and she's done nothing. She hasn't even presented any facts, and she has done nothing to try to hold the CIA accountable for what she and I both believe would be a very, very serious charge, that they're lying. So that's the difference.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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So she accused the CIA of lying

without "proof" that would be impossible to provide anyway.  And now YOU call her a big fat liar because... you hate consistency?

Oh wait, it's because you care more whether a Democrat was told about war crimes and failed to do anything about it, than whether Republicans ordered war crimes.

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Just for the record ...

there were no war crimes.  Period.  All official actions were within the bounds of the Geneva Conventions.  Any excesses which may have occurred have been investigated and any guilty parties have been tried and sentenced accordingly.  That's the way it is supposed to work and that's the way it did work.

But Pelosi's lie was real and it damages the security of the United States and the credibility of the CIA.  If she truly thinks that the CIA has been misleading Congress she is duty bound to do something about it even if she can't provide any proof of her assertion (which she should be required to do in any event).  But to provide no proof AND to do nothing to put a stop to it only points to the fact that she is obviously lying, and so she should at a minimum be removed from her speakership and possibly from her seat in the house.

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Words to GR from his hero

 Gen. Petreaus.

 IN an interview on Fox News speaking to the issue of 'enhanced interrogation', Gitmo and not being afraid to stand up for our values, which is essentially what we are fighting for. The question is making those values operational.

 MacCallum: So is sending this signal that we're not going to use these kind of techniques anymore, what kind of impact does this have on people who do us harm in the field that you operate in?

Gen. Petraeus: Well, actually what I would ask is, does that not take away from our enemies a tool which again have beaten us around the head and shoulders in the court of public opinion?

  When we have taken steps that have violated the Geneva Conventions,  we rightly have been criticized, so as we move forward I think it's important to again live our values, to live the agreements that we have made in the international justice arena and to practice those.

 

 

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Well ...

I respectfully disagree with the good General.  Even he is allowed to make mistakes now and again, though.  This is one of those times.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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News Flash

The Geneva Convention does not apply...

....not to the OBL's and KSM's of the murky world of the terrorist.

And I agree with the general in terms of everyday combatants.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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The provisions related to prisoners of war ...

do not apply, but there are sections that apply to literally everyone and those sections do forbid the use of torture and inhumane treatment.  The rub comes in because the document provides no clear definition of those terms.  Bush tried to get a specific definition put in place but Congress rejected the idea, preferring instead to keep arguing without a clear definition.

So my personal perspective is that since we have not tortured anyone, we have not violated the Geneva Conventions.  Which brings us back to this never ending back and forth about whether we did, or we did not, torture anyone.  Neither side is going to budge from their currently entrenched positions, however, so the default answer is that nothing will be done.

 

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clear definitions of actions prohibited under Geneva treaty...

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002441----000-.html

See subsection d, regarding common article 3 of the Geneva convetions, which is apparently what you are referring to as applying to non-POW

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/AP-Guantanamo-Geneva-Conventions.html

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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Correct, sort of.

Except you are referencing US Law and NOT the Geneva Conventions, but the two seem to be pretty much parallel but I won't vouch for the text being exactly the same.  The point is that there is a part of the Geneva Conventions which says something to the effect that parties to the treaty are obligated to extend some minimum protections to everyone, whereas actual POWs have additional protections.

 

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Republicans come to their senses.....

 trying to soften the race/gender bashing of Sotomayor, elected officials suddenly realize that Latinos do vote!

 Cornyn, the chair of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, told NPR's "All Things Considered" :

"I think it's terrible... This is not the kind of tone any of us want to set when it comes to performing our constitutional responsibilities of advise and consent."

Cornyn dismissed  Limbaugh and Gingrich, adding: "Neither one of these men are elected Republican officials. I just don't think it's appropriate. I certainly don't endorse it. I think it's wrong."

 Cornyn is from Texas, a state with a large Hispanic population  who are US citizens and registered voters.

  I celebrate this turn of events. Does it mean that at long last both sides will be able to debate on the actual substance of philosophical differences, instead of the long worn thin personal attacks.

 I celebrate this development. Hooray!

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There is a reason the right objects ML, very good one.

"The germ of dissolution of our federal government is in the constitution of the federal judiciary; an irresponsible body, (for impeachment is scarcely a scare-crow), working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless step like a thief, over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall be usurped from the States, and the government of all be consolidated into one."

--Thomas Jefferson

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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That's dandy

I suppose your next assumption will be that we no longer need a Supreme Court, which would mean that courts generally and a trail by a jury of your peers is just a useless breach of your 'liberty' and not what the founders had in mind?

  Your quote may have some merit in real life, but as I recall for at least 48 hours some on the right were too busy with very unflattering personal smears against the woman and all around general hate mongering.

  Until you review Sotomayor's work, or writings, your overbroad, over generalized statements and assumptions are nothing but  right wing sensationalism.   Asking how Sotomayor would respond to your quote would be a good question.

  

  

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And what we have here ...

I suppose your next assumption will be that we no longer need a Supreme Court, which would mean that courts generally and a trail by a jury of your peers is just a useless breach of your 'liberty' and not what the founders had in mind?

is, of course, another fine example of you making up things that people never said to argue against.  What is that called again?

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Excuse me, but I wasn't referring to you personally

 My comment was addressed specifically to centinel. I am not sure that he believes the Supreme Court is constitutional, from some of his other comments. 

 

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I know you meant Centinel ...

I was just defending him against your straw man attack ... given that you employed the same against me as well in another thread.  :)

 

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LOL! Please enlighten me as to what I have possibly said that...

....would give you that impression?

I am a Constitutionalist, the SCOTUS is part of the Montesquieuian inspired Constitution and is essential to trias politica.

That being said, unfortunately the courts activist periods have eroded the basic freedoms provided us by the Constitution, hence the need to obtain the right justices, of whom Sotomayer is definitely not one.

So in short, I am all for a SCOTUS, just one loyal to the Constitution.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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There's your problem

Impeachment should be much more commonplace.

Based on my personal feelings, I'd hope we'd have at least a few impeachments per year of federal judges, members of Congress, and other cabinet officers.  I'd have surely voted to impeach W. Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Ford, Nixon, and Johnson.  Give me time and I could find something to impeach H.W. Bush and Carter for as well.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Senator Levin says 'Cheney lies' & Gen. Patreus says US violated

the Geneva Convention and you're still whining about what they told Nancy Pelosi?  That's the theif blaming the victim when he gets caught you know.

www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/29/levin.cheney/index.html

"Sen. Carl Levin, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, says former Vice President Dick Cheney is lying when he claims that classified CIA memos show that enhanced interrogation techniques like waterboarding worked."

crooksandliars.com/john-amato/gen-petraeus-believes-our-values-and-co

Fox tries to use the ticking time bomb on Petreus:

"MacCallum: So is sending this signal that we're not going to use these kind of techniques anymore, what kind of impact does this have on people who do us harm in the field that you operate in?

Gen. Petraeus: Well, actually what I would ask is, does that not take away from our enemies a tool which again have beaten us around the head and shoulders in the court of public opinion? When we have taken steps that have violated the Geneva Conventions, we rightly have been criticized, so as we move forward I think it's important to again live our values, to live the agreements that we have made in the international justice arena and to practice those."

And some of you folks still think how Darth & dubya carried on was appropriate for the leaders of the free world?  The US had never before been so close to true totalitarianism.  The Leadership openly said the rules didn't apply to them.  They amased powers conservatives are now fighting to take away from President Obama...Politics shouldn't be a game, it shouldn't be a sporting event.    Too many people on both sides think it is.  It should be a way we come to terms with each other and live as close to harmony as we can.

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So much for the meme that Obama respects the 2nd Amendment ...

just another of his many, many lies.  We now find that he wants to reinstate (if he could) the most heinous and hated piece of anti-gun legislation ever enacted: The Clinton Assault Weapons Ban.

For Obama, Calderón, a Meeting of Minds
Leaders Disagree on One Issue: Urgency of Reinstating U.S. Ban on Assault Weapons

But Obama indicated that while he favors reinstating the U.S. ban on assault weapons, which Congress allowed to expire five years ago, the move would face too much political opposition to happen soon. He said better enforcing existing laws to prevent arms smuggling would have a more immediate effect on keeping U.S. weapons from Mexican cartels.

Now, having recognized that he will pay a price for trying to reinstate the Assault Weapons Ban and wisely deciding not to touch that particular rail of the political subway, he is instead going to try and saddle us with a treaty instead:

On his first presidential visit to Mexico, Obama praised Calderón for taking on the drug cartels, whose potent arsenals and economic power are threatening the integrity of the Mexican state. Obama announced that he will push the U.S. Senate to ratify an inter-American arms-trafficking treaty.

Full text of the treaty, originally signed by Clinton but as of yet not ratified by the Senate, can be found here .  And as a treaty this is not merely some legislative law that can be appealed on Constitutional grounds ... treaties have almost the same force as the Constitution from a legal perspective.

Regardless of what you think of the benefits of the aforementioned treaty, subjugating our rights to international treaties is a completely wrong-headed idea and it must be stopped.

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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To illustrate the folly of such an action on Obama's part ...

the Firearms Coalition has an eye opening piece on a related topic:

Obama Signs Press Control Treaty

(April 30, 2009) In a surprise move last week President Barack Obama signed a treaty with a broad coalition of nations agreeing to limit "dangerous, derogatory, and politically biased information" from being disseminated across international borders. The International Treaty on Fair and Responsible Dissemination of Information (which goes by the acronym BS-IDA in its original Chinese title) is intended to stop the flow of "confusing and conflicting news, ideology, and political philosophy" (referred to in the treaty by the acronym IDA) which causes so much rancor and even violence in many countries, particularly those countries which enforce rigid ideological standards and homogeneity of thought such as China, Cuba, North Korea, and Iran.

...

Note, there's a surprise ending to this so read the whole piece.

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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treaties and the constitution

My understanding is that treaties can have the effect of adding a new item to the list of enumerated powers (where the power to sign and enforce treaties is itself located), but they can't over-ride explicit restrictions on Federal power, such as the Bill of Rights (which was added to the Constitution subsequent to the listing of enumerated powers, and therefore takes priority).

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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GR, the link says "not authorized to view this page"

I am curious, whats the rub?

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Doh.

It seems these guys are as bad as Bloomburg.  Sorry.

Use the following search "Obama Signs Press Control Treaty site:firearmscoalition.org" in Google then follow the link titled "The Firearms Coalition - Why Not CIFT".

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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or Look Up Assault Weapons Sales Mexico

The Firearms Coalition profits greatly from the Mexican Drug Wars.

 Someone has to sell those Mexicans their guns. God forbid that the manufacturer of the guns have to label the country of origin. Someone might find out that guns sales and profits is one of the main focus of the NRA.

International treaties= bad. International gun sales = good.

or how to have the

Freedom to Profit from International Gun Sales and War, while hiding behind the second amendment.

………… parent

Google this instead

"Obama Signs Press Control Treaty" site:firearmscoalition.org

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

A bit late at this point ...

but now that I know what the problem is ... here's a good copy of the link.

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Boy, a picture sure does say a thousand words...

...if looks could kill...

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Who is that on the left?

But you have the look all wrong, C.  In ebonics that look means, "Hi, my name's Michelle!  I want to be your friend."  You're just culturally biased, C, learn to be more accepting of others.

 

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Sarkozy's new - old lady...

So in politics I think that look means;

"Yo Carla, I heard Nick was talk'in sh!t bout my Barry..."!

And judging from the Obama's dismissal of the recent Srkozy's dinner invitation, I'd say they are now officially outside the circle of trust.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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