S&M Open Thread

Open Thread for Sunday & Monday!

It's International Clothesline Week. Time to abandon that old-fashioned gas or electric clothes dryer and use this amazing new solar-powered device !

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No dissing the clothesline!

Ultraviolet radiation has been proven to kill all the germs and creepy things that hot water and detergent have no affect on! 
Actually, clotheslines are extremely common in EU countries.     

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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No dissing intended!

If anything, I was dissing clothes dryers. I think clotheslines are great! What sounded like sarcasm was meant to be serious!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I was being facetious too ;-)

(I'd use GRs meta tag method but I like smilies better :-D)

Clothelines ARE great, except when your neighbors complain about it looking bad for the neighborhood as if only poor, unhip, or lower class people should ever have a clothesline.

They mean ironing more, too.   I know how you guys love those kinds of chores ;-)

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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I've heard that people in Minnesota often brag about

I've read/heard that people in Minnesota often brag about hanging their sheets out on the clotheslines when the temperatures reach 40 degrees below zero. 

………… parent

Very witty

You cleverly slid that title and story in with nary a comment . . . .

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

…………

Gingrich nails the whole Sotomayor point ...

Gingrich Responds To Racist Tweet On “Face The Nation”

"She said the court should be radical. The court should rewrite law. The court is where policy is made. That's a direct quote. I'm not very comfortable having somebody at that level with that level of power," Gingrich said.

Well said.

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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That's a disqualifier if I've ever heard one!

The GOP should light this one up.

It virtually makes it impossible to confirm her.

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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Get your facts straight.

The fundamental fact persistently left out by right wing dip sh*ts is that the statement was made strictly within the context of a discussion on race and sex discrimination cases.

 I am going to repeat that in case you missed it the first time.

Her statement about a wise Latina bringing a perspective different than a white male,

was in the context of dealing with race and sex discrimation cases.

 

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Oh, I am sorry, but you are wrong agian...

 

A draft version of a October 2003 speech Sotomayor delivered at Seton Hall University stated, “I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would, more often than not, reach a better conclusion.” That is identical to her October 2001 remarks at the University of California, Berkeley that have become the subject of intense criticism by Republican senators and prompted conservative talk show host Rush Limbaugh to label her “racist.”

In addition, Sotomayor delivered a series of earlier speeches in which she said “a wise woman” would reach a better decision. She delivered the first of those speeches in Puerto Rico in 1994 and then before the Women’s Bar Association of the State of New York in April 1999.

The summary descriptions of speeches Sotomayor provided indicated she delivered remarks similar to the 1994 speech on three other occasions in 1999 and 2000 during two addresses at Yale and one at the City University of New York School of Law.

More here:  

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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She is a speech

 recycler! Who knew? 

 

………… parent

A speech recycler...?

A “recycler”, as in not just saying the thing once in 1994 as was initially suspected, and not just again in 2001, but coming back to it over and over in the interim and afterwards.

It must be an awfully important insight into her thinking for it to recur so often, huh?

 I think The Intellectual Conservative has the right perspective;


...Roberts simply explained that as a Supreme Court Justice, his purpose was not to favor either the lowly or powerful, but to honestly and impartially apply constitutional principle to their circumstances. Thus, neither could count on a favorable bias from him, but both could expect justice. And the promise of the diligent pursuit of justice for each individual, whether meek or mighty, is the surest guarantee of justice for all. It quickly became evident that by his succinct response, Roberts had completely redirected the debate back to constitutional premises not only for his own confirmation, but also during the confirmation of Samuel Alito, who was subsequently appointed to the court.

In the afterglow of such a commitment to real equality for all Americans, Sotomayor's twisted perspective, and the undiluted bitterness it reflects (the true consequence of her life circumstances) can be understood in their petty, poisonous, and ultimately dangerous reality. A racist jurist is a problem, but one who brazenly and unabashedly transforms that racism into "policy," recklessly administered from the bench, and thereafter backed by the full force of the federal government, will ultimately corrupt the character of the nation for every inhabitant.

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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Really?

It virtually makes it impossible to confirm her.

Last I checked there are 40 Republicans in the Senate.  Try again.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Ethically speaking...

it would be hard even for an ethical democrat...oh I see wht you mean...that could be a problem. ;-)

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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Actually it'd be hard for an ethical Republican

At least an internally consistent Republican to hold up Sotomayor since the filibuster should not be used to hold up judicial appointments.  Or so says the Republican leadership.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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R's suffer from race-phobia because of folks like ML...

They should oppose her nomination on the grounds before them, that is how R's will be consistant.

They need to stop worrying about wht sounds politically correct (according to the D's) and act ccording to their (R's) principles.

This is what screwed up the R party to begin with!

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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I understand your point

but they're going at it all wrong.  If Rs object to Ds overusing the word "racist", their luminaries like Gingrich should avoid using it themselves on flimsy pretexts.

Why not articulate oppositon to affirmative action through positive phrasing such as "we believe in assessing a person's merits independently of their cultural background" or "equal opportunity will be achieved when we set high expectations for all, with special consideration for none"?

Obama has proved that articulately-phrased abstractions can get plenty of positive media coverage.  You don't need to have violent, bitter men throwing terms like "reverse racist" around.

Many of we liberals have issues with the principle of affirmative action (incidentally as does Obama according to his former law students).  We white male liberals probably more so :)  But every bomb thrown by an old white dude who never experienced reverse discrimination in his life pushes me away from the theoretical egalitarian MLK model and towards Jesse Jackson.

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Ha, now that's rich ...

If Rs object to Ds overusing the word "racist", their luminaries like Gingrich should avoid using it themselves on flimsy pretexts.

Flimsy pretexts?  Do you mean like innocent comments at an old man's birthday party?  Ask Trent Lott about that one.

Obama has proved that articulately-phrased abstractions can get plenty of positive media coverage.

Pfft, that's pretty rich too.  Obama could endorse the principles found in Mein Kampf and the press would find a way to report it in a positive light.  "Hitler was just misunderstood," they would say, "Obama makes the truth of Hitler's message clear with his articulate style by supporting the elimination of Isreal and driving the Jews into the sea." *

 

-------------------------------------

* Obviously this is a ficitious, but arguably accurate, representation.

 

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Yes, exactly.

If you believe it was over-the-top to call Lott a racist based on those comments (which I find is a reasonable position), you can't defend a guy who turns around and throws the word at Sotomayor.  If you believe we as a society are too PC and/or too likely to play the race card, you can't use the same phrasing to describe both slightly controversial comments and lynchings.

As for your premise that the press is in the tank for Obama, I find that kinda lazy.  It can excuse anything he does well or a Republican does poorly.  They said that about McCain too in the 2000 and 2008 primaries.  The press will find a natural affinity for politicians who are friendly, interesting and respectful (unfortunately, not necessarily honest or smart).

If large numbers of journalists give Obama positive coverage, it's because he's better at dealing with them, not because some East Side Overlord told them they have to pander to the guy who wants to raise their taxes.

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Gingrich corrected his faux pas...

... you can't defend a guy who turns around and throws the word at Sotomayor.

He clarified his position.  He stated that he does not know Sotomayor well enough to know whether SHE is racist, or not, but he stands by his assessment that her STATEMENTS are racist, which they are.  Why are you even trying to argue against the obvious?  The statements in question, which have now been shown to be a consistent them in her speeches for years, clearly assert that one ethnic group's abilities are superior to those of another.  That's racist.

As for your premise that the press is in the tank for Obama, I find that kinda lazy.  It can excuse anything he does well or a Republican does poorly.  They said that about McCain too in the 2000 and 2008 primaries.  The press will find a natural affinity for politicians who are friendly, interesting and respectful (unfortunately, not necessarily honest or smart).

I don't know anything about any of this.  My assertion does not rely on them having an "affinity for politicians who are friendly, interesting and respectful".  My assertion relies solely on their political outlooks and the politicians that causes they to naturally favor and support.

If large numbers of journalists give Obama positive coverage, it's because he's better at dealing with them, not because some East Side Overlord told them they have to pander to the guy who wants to raise their taxes.

Who said there was an overlord saying that they HAVE to do anything?  Who said that they even HAVE to be coordinated?  It is sufficient that they as individuals are politically left wing and the rest follows naturally without any special effort to make it happen.

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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OK, assume

journalists are overwhelmingly politically left-wing (which I would dispute but that's another topic).

Why?

Liberals are more likely to become journalists?  A journalist's work experience pushes them left?  If it's something really nefarious like liberal indoctrination in classrooms, it would be more across-the-board career-wise.  Maybe seeing the world makes you liberal; that would explain a lot.

Besides, simply having an ideology and distorting your news stories to fit it aren't the same thing.  The defense against bias isn't fact-free "balance", it's accuracy.  I called your premise about media bias lazy because you didn't bother to cite any examples of bias itself and because you didn't explain why journalists would be biased in the first place.

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Taking a stab

I'd bet that liberals are more likely to want to be journalists, just as conservatives are more likely to join the military.  I don't think that the military is turning away Democrats until I'm faced with compelling evidence to the contrary.  I also don't think newsmen are turning away Republican journalists without the same compelling evidence.

Similarly, liberals are more likely to choose to be university professors and teachers.  There is no nefarious plot here to keep conservatives from teaching children and "impressionable" young adults.  It is simply that conservatives don't want to do that sort of work...generally speaking.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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I generally agree with this. +3

I don't claim there is a nefarious plot or active coordination to make this happen.  I think it just does because of what people with certain attitudes like to do.  A non-political example might be that people who like animals are more likely to become veterinarians.  It's not that the vet schools are turning away people who are just in it for a quick buck, its that the people who want to help animals are drawn to that profession.

 

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Why they are biased does not matter ...

the mere fact that they are colors everything they write and do.  Just like Sotomayor and her wise latina's being better decision makers.  Sotomayor is like the biased journalist of the judicial system.  The point that she makes, that she doubts people can be unbiased in ALL or even MOST cases, extends to journalists too.  Perhaps more so.

Why are journalists more liberal than not?  I don't know but I wouldn't doubt if it had to do with an "I want to make a difference" attitude.  That sounds nice but it goes completely against the concept of balanced reporting.  "Making a difference" implies taking an active role in shaping the outcome which is clearly not neutral.

The defense against bias isn't fact-free "balance", it's accuracy.

Of course not.  The defense against bias is fact-FULL and opinion-FREE "balance".  That's the very definition of accuracy as it applies to reporting in my mind.  But very few media pieces are opinion-FREE, quite the opposite.  They are filled with personal interpretations of the actual facts, not merely reports on the facts.  Personal interpretation = opinion.  Selective reporting = bias by omission.  These are the landmarks of the typical media story today.  I doubt that they even realize they are doing it, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.

I called your premise about media bias lazy because you didn't bother to cite any examples of bias itself and because you didn't explain why journalists would be biased in the first place.

Fair enough, I guess, but doing so would mean that I would have to cite the same material in almost every post I make.  My opinion has been shaped over three or four decades of observing the behavior of the media.  I am not going to try and cite that in every post.

Bottom-line, I consider the MSM to be highly biased to the left.  I don't expect those on the left to be able to recognize that this is the case since the stories will necessarily look like "main stream thought" given their personal context.  If you don't think that they are biased, then fine, but I retain my right to disagree.

 

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I couldn't agree more!

"we believe in assessing a person's merits independently of their cultural background" or "equal opportunity will be achieved when we set high expectations for all, with special consideration for none"

Excellent, I wish we had you on our side... ;-)

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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I guess he missed this ...

Why do liberals such as yourself think this is a tough choice?

Republicans believe that all racism is wrong, including the race-based biases of minorities and the Democrat leadership.  Republicans want to put race behind us and have a color-blind society.  Democrats always want to keep a person's race front and center.  How is putting someone's race front and center being race neutral?  It isn't.

Personally, I think that the Democrats are the racists simply because everything they promote is race-based in some way or another.

 

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Might as well post a "crickets".

I know the Republican line on this issue and I party agree with it; your post was hardly revealing in that sense.

The affirmative-action supporting viewpoint is that past discrimination has created so many entrenched biases and inequalities that only deliberately tipping the scales the other way (positive discrimination) will resolve the issue.  I'm pretty sure most AA supporters want it phased out if and when we actually do achieve social equality for minorities.

My issues with this line of thinking stem not from feeling discriminated against as a white male but because of the unintended consequences it produces (the "soft bigotry of low expectations", the idea that minorities need extra help to compete).  But labelling AA as "racist" and implicitly putting it into the same category as hate speech and lynchings is counterproductive.

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Heh, thanks.

Unfortunately, I'm not as persuadable on other planks of the GOP platform.

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And that's what is so confusing...

I often wonder how a bright articulate dude like yourself could be so wrong in their politics...lol! ;-)

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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"Planks of the GOP platform"

That is corph code-speak for anything he doesn't have a good response for.  And you called my "liberal media" meme lazy?  Pfft.

 

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And what are the GOP planks?

 Abe Lincoln a 'moderate' Republican is credited with fighting a war that saved the union and ended slavery. 

 Teddy Roosevelt a 'moderate' Republican set aside acres of  land as national treasures for permanent preservation and conservation. (thx Teddy)

  Dwight Eisenhour a 'moderate'  Republican created the interstate highway system, and created a commission to study implementing integration and civil rights.

  Richard Nixon a 'moderate' Republican signed on to the first affirmative action measure with his Philadelphia Plan. Richard Nixon also created the EPA to protect the environment and health.

  Ronald Reagan the favorite mythological hero of the right, the conservatives conservaitve raised taxes, more than once and used race baiting code to help him win office.

  George H. W. Bush was defiled by hard core conservatives for raising taxes, even after his famous read my lips line.

  George Bush created the biggest socialist program for Wall Street, under Hank Paulsons plan to privatize the profits for banks too big to fail and socialize the risks. He also twisted arms for his socialist Medicare D plan which not one Republican protested as socialism at the time.

 The only conservative plank left where you can lay claim to standing on any principles is the pro-life movement, and folks have pushed it so hard and so hysteronically, that they have created a sub-culture of macho christians warriors quietly celebrating the murderer of a doctor as a hero.

 If you want a plank to run on that truly follows conservative principles, your Republican leaders will run on abolishing social security, medicare, give huge tax cuts to insurance companies, oil companies, and drug companies so that the extraordinary 'goodness' of these huge corporations making enormous profits will see fit to let a few jobs trickle down into jobs for the poor,  and mandating that all US citizens take a pledge for abstinence only, which we are told by principled conservatives is the only truly pro-life position.

  

 

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*crickets*

 ***

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Wow, you waited 5 whole hours.

You lefties are sure impatient .  :)  Please come back and see me after 3 days .

 

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OK, little miss anxious ...

I would hate for your to wet your pants waiting in anticipation of my reply any longer ... so here you go!  :)

Abe Lincoln a 'moderate' Republican is credited with fighting a war that saved the union and ended slavery. 

Sure, Republicans can take credit for that.

Teddy Roosevelt a 'moderate' Republican set aside acres of  land as national treasures for permanent preservation and conservation. (thx Teddy)

Ditto.

Dwight Eisenhour a 'moderate'  Republican created the interstate highway system, and created a commission to study implementing integration and civil rights.

Ditto.  Nothing disturbing yet.

Richard Nixon a 'moderate' Republican signed on to the first affirmative action measure with his Philadelphia Plan. Richard Nixon also created the EPA to protect the environment and health.

I'm not going to go look up the details.  I'll take you at your word that Nixon actually did these things.  As we have seen, though, Affirmative Action was created by Executive Order by John Kennedy in 1961.  As you know I oppose Affirmative Action which supporting Equal Rights.

Bottom line, not disturbed yet.

Ronald Reagan the favorite mythological hero of the right, the conservatives conservative raised taxes, more than once and used race baiting code to help him win office.

Ronnie did raise taxes.  OK, I can accept that.  He did not race bait anyone, though, that is a lie fabrication.  Your accusation does disturb me a tad.

George H. W. Bush was defiled by hard core conservatives for raising taxes, even after his famous read my lips line.

I agree, hang 'em out to dry the wanker.  But the more important theme is fiscal responsibility.  Living within your means.  Cutting taxes is only one way that the size of the public pie can be increased so that additional services can be provided while still being fiscally responsible.

George Bush created the biggest socialist program for Wall Street, under Hank Paulsons plan to privatize the profits for banks too big to fail and socialize the risks. He also twisted arms for his socialist Medicare D plan which not one Republican protested as socialism at the time.

Don't know the details on either of these.  The Medicare D plan is something that I would likely have opposed but I don't recall if I said so or not at the time.  Neither of these disturbs me.

One thing is VERY clear, though.  Thanks to Obama the Republicans are once again the party of fiscal responsibility ... even WITH his level of outrageous spending.  Obama as eclipsed Bush on that front many, many times over.  I find this to be a relief.

The only conservative plank left where you can lay claim to standing on any principles is the pro-life movement, and folks have pushed it so hard and so hysteronically, that they have created a sub-culture of macho christians warriors quietly celebrating the murderer of a doctor as a hero.

I have no idea what your are talking about here.  We have plenty of principles and we stand on those, admittedly sometimes more firmly than others.

 If you want a plank to run on that truly follows conservative principles, your Republican leaders will run on abolishing social security, medicare, give huge tax cuts to insurance companies, oil companies, and drug companies so that the extraordinary 'goodness' of these huge corporations making enormous profits will see fit to let a few jobs trickle down into jobs for the poor,  and mandating that all US citizens take a pledge for abstinence only, which we are told by principled conservatives is the only truly pro-life position.

Meh.  Mere partisan hot air.

 

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I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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The point being

 that none of these actions taken by past Republican presidents are considered even tolerable in today's Republican party.

 Ike's road project would be considered too big of a tax hike, and the creation the dreaded evil big government (See Grover Norquist).

 Reagan's tax hikes would be considered 'treason' today. (See Grover Norquist)

  Medicare Part D, cost millions to fund, that were not allocated for in the budget, a complete crime according to today's GOP. (Never mind that they all bent over and grabbed their ankles and voted for it)

 You personally may be willing to relinquish the conservative planks or principles, but the current crop of the GOP would shriek that the end of the world was coming if Republicans today dared to espouse any of these moderate positions and policies of past Republican Presidents. 

 

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Lazy lazy Laaaazy

In terms of adjective bomb-throwing I do to conservatives, I believe it's the most overlooked and one of the most important ones.

I'm not a huge fan of calling gay rights opponents homophobes, or claiming conservatives hate poor people.  It's not just incendiary; it simply ignores some of the central tenets of conservatism and puts a distorted liberal lens on conservative actions.

Laziness, however, I see everywhere in conservative behavior:

- William Kristol was clearly mailing in is every times OP-ed; Safire and Brooks seldom or ever doing any research.  Not one of them can hold Kristof's briefcase, let alone Krugman's.

- That laughable "Republican road to recovery" non-budget with moronic circles and no numbers.  Could they not forsee being labeled as obstructionists and prepare a substantive response.

- Overuse of the catch-all "tax cuts!" solution to every economic problem.  And within the idea of "tax cuts" itself, not bothering with any details.  There are a hundred ways to collect taxes and a hundred different social consequences.  Which tax?  By how much?  And what kind of economic performance standard to they want to hold themselves to if it's enacted?  The lack of detail is infuriating.

- Retartedly simplistic Reaganite "we win, they lose" foreign policy rhetoric.  Ditto for addressing terrorism and ignoring the whole range of Muslim attitudes towards the US.

- Underrepresentation in the academic fields, where emphasis is on knowledge rather than material gain.  Touting the equally simplistic Laffer curve as some kind of basic law of nature whenever it suits them.

- Overrepresentation in both naked and elaborate get-rich-quick schemes like Amway pyramid selling, and used car dealerships.

- Most importantly, the general disdain for public institutions other than the military.  Combine that with an unwillingness to give up the government services that actually benefit you, and you have an everyday conservative.

Running a government effectively is hard, nuanced and complicated.  Decent civil servants have to disregard the trappings of office and toil continuously for little recognition.  As such, only those with a personal conviction in the governments ability to do well by people are likely to be good at it.

All of which means that Conservatives could make great opposition candidates.  They can denounce Liberals when they become corrupt or inefficient.  But for God's sake don't elect them to any important government function.  They appoint too many Brownies.

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Quick reply to Corph...

I think it behooves you to not label those in favor of traditional marriage "homophobes" just as it does conservatives to not label progressives as socialists.

I disagree conservatives are lazy, in fact quite the contrary.

From Edmund Burke, to Bill Buckley, and Barry Goldwater, to the many young up and coming conservatives around today, the movement has a rich tradition of intellectual aptitude.

I think you my overlook a simple fact Corph. Conservatism is not  the circuitous political philosophy progressivism is. It derives it's basis from the founding principles, and human nature. Progressivism on the other hand requires a great deal of intellectual reconciliation.

As far as Krugman goes, he will go down in history as the guy who sank the ship. I despise Krugman.

Conservatives have no need to create some trillion dollar cross your fingers and pray economic scenario, we know the market will correct itself, minus the meddling of the government in the housing market that got us here to begin with.

So what if we had let Chrysler and GM go Bankrupt 6 months ago, the secured creditors would have been duly compensated, and the UAW would have had to make some real concessions, but no, we were told they were to big to let go, so now we have car companies owned by the government, one with a CEO who says he knows jack about cars, and an overly bloated UAW poised to sink them again right out of the gate.

Look, tax cuts go right in workers pockets, billion dollar stimulus packages seem to go into thin air.

America has done more for Muslims than anyone else on the planet, Kosovo, Sudan, Somalia. Indonesia, please do not tell me we do not take Muslims attitudes into account in our FP.

Corph, Conservatism has a long and proud intellectual history. To equate the academic summation of the right with the laffer curve is absurd. You should know better.

In as far as universities go, I agree, we surrendered our universities over to half baked academia who never got out of school after the summer of love, and that has turned our once great higher education system into a liberal echo chamber.

In terms of public institutions, if you are talking about things like the NEA, they are not the role of the federal government, it is the place of the private sector to sponsor art they like.

I disagree with you on running government, of course it is important, but it should not be hard, nuanced, and complicated really, liberals have made it so, now that our government is huge, and the whole federal budget it seems goes to medicaid medicare, SS, and the likes.

Government was meant to be run by the people, and restrained to it's constitutional role.

I believe conservatives,bound by their principles, have the right answers and are far better stewards of the treasury than liberals.

 

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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So...

As far as Krugman goes, he will go down in history as the guy who sank the ship. I despise Krugman.

First sentence:  Ooh look a messenger!  Blam!  He sank the ship... how?  By forecasting the housing bubble and its inevitable collapse?  Assuming he is primarily to blame for bursting the bubble, are you arguing that housing would have kept soaring upwards if not for doomsaying economists?  If you're arguing there was no bubble to begin with, well then the housing marked would have survived the doomsayers.  How you can possibly honestly blame Krugman for "sinking the ship" is beyond me.  He had no control over policy.

Second sentence: I can see why Krugman would rub you the wrong way; he's scathing toward conservative economic positions.  But can you find anything innaccurate or even misleading in his columns?  The only times I have found his reasoning weak was when he ventured too far into the political field and away from economics.

But you can't call him lazy (maybe you aren't; I'm simply returning to my original point).  He does his homework, if nothing else.  Few lazy people win Nobel prizes anyway.  He's also extremely good at popularizing technical economic concepts, whether you agree with his conclusions or not.  We need more Krugmans and fewer Maureen Dowds.  I'd be highly interested in reading a conseravative economist with similar talent, but I can't find any besides the occasional Economist column.

BTW, I didn't label them homophobes, and I'm not a fan of people on the left who do.  Just so we're clear on my original phrasing.

………… parent

I do not blame him for his view on the housing bubble...

...or claim he caused it.

I do blame him for most everything else.

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

………… parent

Wow, brillant piece.

Brink Lindsey calls Krugman revisionist, claims the great compression was anticompetitive (then why so much growth after WWII?) and that there was more racism back then, so more economic equality = bad. 

I encourage everyone to read Centinel's link.  Tell me if you find any compelling argument or just name-calling and bland assertions.

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Correction.

Look, tax cuts go right in workers pockets, billion dollar stimulus packages seem to go into thin air.

The stimulus money goes directly into the coffers of the unions where it will be duly laundered and returned to Obama in due course as campaign contributions.

 

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I think you have laziness confused with ...

refusing to repeatedly butt heads with the liberal cement blocks.  There are some issues that have been so thoroughly discussed and so thoroughly refuted that repeating the attempt, yet again, would constitute plausible grounds for having a charge of insanity brought against one's self.  I simply decline your invitation to do so.

 

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Y'know, you sounded

an awful lot like BR there :)

It's not necessary to inform me that you don't want to engage on a particular topic.  I don't assume victory if I'm not responded to and I'm not big on the crickets thing.

………… parent

Non sequitur

I fail to see what that has to do with the handful (perhaps a majority?) of Republicans who will filibuster justice Sotomayor's confirmation to the SCOTUS.

Shouldn't she get an UpperdownvoteTM as was the view of most Republicans circa 2005?

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

You lost me...

I think R's should oppose the nomination vehemently, she is not an appropriate candidate.

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

………… parent

Should they attempt to filibuster her nomination?

That's the question.

The Senate has every right to vote against her at time of confirmation.  We're not debating that.  We're debating whether or not they should allow her confirmation to come to a vote.

I happen to believe the filibustering of any executive appointment is wrong, but is constitutional and is in line with current Senate rules.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Probably not...

Elections have consequences...

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

………… parent

Could you please point me to the quote

...where she said the court should be radical and should rewrite law?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Crickets.

:P

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Funny.

I actually leave a day or two between my requests and my crickets, in addition to trying to make sure the individual has been commenting on other points in between (which suggests that there is a good chance that they actually SAW the request) before posting Crickets.

As my comment record clearly demonstrates, * I was not even active between your two posts so how could I have ever even responded?  You left a whole whopping three hours when I wasn't even around, whoopee!

That having been said, I decline to look up the reference.  It's Gingrich's claim, go ask him if you think he is lying so boldly.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

* Here's a snapshot for the record:

Comments made by GoRight

Title Post date Comment New comments
WTF Open Thread 2009-06-08 14:53 Competence vs. incompetence?  
Weekend Open Thread 2009-06-08 14:44 I can understand how people come to have this view ... 2
S&M Open Thread 2009-06-07 13:55 Gingrich nails the whole Sotomayor point ...  
WTF Open Thread 2009-06-07 13:43 Yea, I know.  

Note that the timestamps for SL's posts were

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

My bad

I did that because I remembered from a week or so ago when you did this . I swear when I looked at it, both the original and the Crickets post were marked [NEW] - I may have not looked at that thread for a while - and I noticed that the time stamp was just about a half hour apart (not noticing that the dates were three days apart!). I thought it was pretty funny, and you were doing it on purpose, so I just reciprocated with my quick crickets as a joke.

That said, I do believe Gingrich is absolutely lying. And you are describing his lie as "well said," so there you go.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Ha. Vindicated! :)

I knew you were joking ... but in case you were half serious I wanted to point out that I don't do (or at least try not to do) what you actually did.  I do at least try to be somewhat fair about it, and it's not like I use the Crickets thing for everything, just things I consider important or really want an answer on.

On the Gingrich thing I don't know if he should have said "direct quote", or not, and I am not going to waste time trying to dig up one of her many speeches where she has expressed these types of things to try and find an exact match.

Suffice it to say, I do not necessarily believe that Gingrich's statement is literally true, but I do believe that it is close enough for (Judicial) Government Work to be effectively true.  I agree with the general concept/principle at play being expressed and that is what I was considered to be "well said."  Obviously YMMV.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

That Gingrich quote

is nowhere in the article you linked.

Oh, and please point to the Sotomayor quote re: "the court should rewrite law".  I'd be extremely surprised if she phrased it that way.

Otherwise, either you're paraphrasing Gingrich using quotes (no-no) or Gingrich is lying by claiming it's a direct quote.

And he's supposed to be the Republican ideas man?  I'm getting real sick of this guy.

………… parent

Please extend to me a little credit ...

That Gingrich quote is nowhere in the article you linked. Oh, and please point to the Sotomayor quote re: "the court should rewrite law". I'd be extremely surprised if she phrased it that way. Otherwise, either you're paraphrasing Gingrich using quotes (no-no) or Gingrich is lying by claiming it's a direct quote.

I did not fabricate that quote out of thin air, nor am I using quotes around a paraphrase as you suggest.

The quote I provided was in that article, exactly as I quoted it, at the time that I made the post.  You are correct that the article no longer contains that quote, and the article does not indicate (as it should) that it was subsequently updated.  Bad form on their part.  Note that they have even changed the title of the piece without notice.

To substantiate my claim consider the following from the WSJ who had also taken note from their newsfeed:

View quote in context »

Gingrich admitted that it is "very doubtful" she will be disqualified as a high court pick because of her earlier remarks. "She said the court should be radical. The court should rewrite law. The court is where policy is made. That's a direct quote. I'm not very comfortable having somebody at that level with that level of power" Gingrich said. Full Article at CBS News
 

She said the court should be radical. The court should rewrite law. The court is where policy is made. That's a direct quote. I'm not very comfortable having somebody at that level with that level of power

SOURCE: CBS News 2 days ago

Here's the transcript from Face the Nation :

Newt GINGRICH: I think that it’s-- it’s very doubtful, because-- I think she was a good prosecutor. I think she was an acceptable district court judge.

But, remember, but lower levels, judges aren’t in a position to live out whatever their prejudices are because they’re bound by the Supreme Court. If she’s one of nine people with a lifetime appointment-- and you read what she said. She said the court should be radical, the court should-- should, in effect, rewrite law. “The courts are where policy is made,” that’s a direct quote. I’m not very comfortable having somebody at that level with that level of power as a Supreme Court justice.

You can watch the video to hear him actually say it:

So, if you have any problems with the quote provided and the accuracy of the quoting that was done, please contact CBS news.  I just reported what they put out there.  I am not responsible for their unacknowledged alterations after the fact nor their inept attempts to quote someone before the fact.

Now, taking note of the punctuation in the actual transcript's version of his statement (provided above) Newt's actual statement is a bit more clear.  The direct quote was apparantly only referring to “The courts are where policy is made”, not all of the previous statements.  Listening to the video also agrees with that version.

So apparently you were not quite right in your assessment that "Otherwise, either you're paraphrasing Gingrich using quotes (no-no) or Gingrich is lying by claiming it's a direct quote."  The actual cause was neither of your points, but rather option (c) CBS news is a sloppy organization run by morons.  But again, this was CBS news' sloppiness, not mine.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

OK, thanks for doing the digging

on that.  I'm glad the flaw is neither with you or Gingrich, and I likewise lament our lamentable media accuracy standards.

………… parent

My BR repellent seems to have been working.! :)

Since the whole B Rational induced flame war a while back I have adopted my technique of using formal "Meta" tags on all of my posts to explicitly declare the general nature of how they are intended.  I did this as a means to explicitly shutting down his claims that I am always lying about when I was joking or was throwing out a firecracker or two.

Thus far it seems to have been effective, perhaps too effective since he seems to have dried up and blown away ... not that I'm complaining, of course.  :)

 

Meta: This post is a mild jab to see if BR is even paying attention any longer.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

…………

You should post

an elaborate BR taunt, and then immediately post a "crickets" comment :)

………… parent

Federal education system is its own worse enemy...

"The teaching establishment and politicians have hoodwinked taxpayers into believing that more money is needed to improve education. The Washington, D.C., school budget is about the nation's costliest, spending about $15,000 per pupil. Its student/teacher ratio, at 15.2 to 1, is lower than the nation's average. Yet student achievement is just about the lowest in the nation. What's so callous about the Washington situation is about 1,700 children in kindergarten through 12th grade receive the $7,500 annual scholarships in order to escape rotten D.C. public schools, and four times as many apply for the scholarships, yet Congress, beholden to the education establishment, will end funding the school voucher program. Any long-term solution to our education problems requires the decentralization that can come from competition. Centralization has been massive. In 1930, there were 119,000 school districts across the U.S; today, there are less than 15,000. Control has moved from local communities to the school district, to the state, and to the federal government. Public education has become a highly centralized government-backed monopoly and we shouldn't be surprised by the results."

--George Mason University economics professor Walter E. Williams

 

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

…………

Quite frankly

I could care less about the efficacy of federal meddling in education.  Education is a state issue, plain and simple.  The Constitution does not say:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Unless giving the United States the power is a really good idea and works really well.

Therefore the merits of federal intervention are not at issue.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Come again?

The states have little or no involvement in education anymore.

You are living in a dream world if you are asserting that.

A world I would like to see for real, but a dream world none the less.

The money spent and results are conclusive, to advocate for the federal government to withdraw from the education arena is a reasonable, logical denouement.

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

………… parent

The states have little or no

The states have little or no involvement in education anymore.

Ignoring evidence from publishing/printing industry that says otherwise.

If states thought it was of their benefit to have the fed gov't had more say, aren't stats allowed to do that?
Aren't states allowed to outsource their duties to the fed gov't just as much they are allowed to outsource to public/private corporations?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Outsourcing to the federal government is a bit of a oxymoron

....don't ya think?

It's more like the federal government just steadily encroaches on the fabric of American life.

The States have not outsourced anything, the fed has just layered layer upon layer of bureaucratic control over anything it chooses.

Look, in my view government should work from home on out, meaning if you have a problem with "X" you should try to solve it locally, then at a county level, then a state,  regional, etc. until you get it done.

So schools are something that historically were, and should be today, managed by those that attend them.

They definitely benefit from local control, look at private and charter schools, they typically require parent involvement, are funded by local sources, and are far superior to public schools.

Also, it is unconstitutional.

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

………… parent

Let's be fair

Twas GWB who stuck the Federal government's nose firmly and actively into education with No Child Left Behind ---  with lots of support from Republicans.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

………… parent

True, but that was more of a adding insult to injury deal...

...because as if that wasn't bad enough, the government has been wasting money on education for a long time.

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

………… parent

I disagree.

True, but that was more of a adding insult to injury deal...

This is not true.  You are correct that "the government has been wasting money on education for a long time," but NCLB was not adding insult to injury as you suggest, it was about bringing accountability for all the money we had been spending.  It was about demanding performce and results for the money being spent.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Well...

Demanding performance and results by meddling even further.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

It deepened the centralization of power over education...

...in Washington DC.

Reagan was right, we should just kill Jimmy Carter's Dept of Education altogether, and get the fed out of schools once and for all.

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

………… parent

You are mistaking my post

You posted an article relating to how poor public school performance was since the federal government got into the education business (ostensibly making the case of causality).

My issue is this:

Let us assume that federal involvement in education reduced class size, increased test scores, and was just an overall great system that fixed every problem there ever was with public education.  That matters not because the Constitution does not allow the federal government to meddle in education.  Education is a power reserved to the states under the 10th amendment.

I don't care if federal involvement is good, bad, or otherwise.  All I care about is that we follow the Constitution on the issue.

Making an analogy to abortion:

Let us assume that Roe is overturned and because of that there are more "back alley" abortions which cause more women to die than would have had Roe been law.  I really don't care how many people die because abortion is a state issue.  If more people die because we're restoring the Constitution, so be it.

I don't care about the consequences of restoring the proper balance of federal and state power.  I just care that it gets done.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

+4 We are in total agreement then.

n/t

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

………… parent

Obama: American business can just drop dead!

June 8 (Bloomberg) -- I’ve finally figured out the Obama economic strategy. President Barack Obama and his team have been having so much fun wielding dictatorial power while rescuing “failed” firms, that they have developed a scheme to gain the same power over every business. The plan is to enact policies that are so anticompetitive that every firm needs a bailout.

Once that happens, their new pay czar Kenneth Feinberg can set the wage for everybody and Rahm Emanuel can stack the boards of all of our companies with his political cronies.

I know, it sounds like an exaggeration. But look at it this way. If there were a power ranking of U.S. companies, like the ones compiled by football writers for National Football League teams, Microsoft would surely be first or second to Google. But last week, Microsoft Chief Executive Officer Steve Ballmer came to Washington to announce what Microsoft would do if Obama’s multinational tax policy is enacted.

“It makes U.S. jobs more expensive,” Ballmer said, “We’re better off taking lots of people and moving them out of the U.S.” If Microsoft, perhaps our most competitive company, has to abandon the U.S. in order to continue to thrive, who exactly is going to stay?

At issue is Obama’s policy to end the deferral of multinational taxation.

The U.S. now has about the highest combined corporate tax rate, second only to Japan among industrialized countries. That rate is so high that U.S. firms have an enormous disadvantage versus competitors. The average corporate tax rate for the major developed countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development in 2008 was about 27 percent, more than 10 percentage points lower than the U.S. rate.

Read more here

 

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

…………

We survived

90% marginal rates on individuals in the 50s and 60s, and posted spectacular growth numbers to boot.  I know Bloomberg-reading trust fund babies love whining about how their hedge fund returns are getting nerfed, but one poorly worded quote from a corporate CEO with a vested interest does not a substantial policy criticism make.

………… parent

I warned you about those Bloomberg links, Centinel.

But after the case where the Firearms Coalition link was also FUBAR I checked a little deeper.  The problem is actually with how SwordsCrossed is post processing the links.  So the problem is not with the sites being linked, but right here at home.  :(

This problem will occur with any site that relies on http query strings to link to specific content.  Query strings are those little bits that sometimes follow a URL after a question mark and seperated by ampersands (&).  The problem is that our software is improperly post processing the links and converting "&" to "&".  This is being done because in HTML "&" is a special character.

SOO, the link your tried to use should have been:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=aaaBdVMkjPnU

but it had been translated to

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=aaaBdVMkjPnU

which of course breaks the link.

Now, I have found an easy workaround for these types of links:

  1. Create the link as you normally would.

  2. Click on "Source" to see the source view of the content in the editor.

  3. Find the anchor tags for the link in question.

  4. Change the double quotes surrounding the URL to single quotes.

This last step seems to protect the URL from the faulty translation.  Unfortunately you have to apply this fix every time just before you save the post.  The next time you edit it the quotes will be switched back to double ones again.

So, for example:

  1. Here is a link without the fix.

  2. Here is a link WITH the fix.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Known bug

Ender looked into it.  He has no idea how to fix it.

As GR says, if you notice that your link  has an ampersand in it (&), you have to manually edit the html to fix.

Moderators would be helpful to edit any of those broken links if they notice them.  Who has edit privs these days?  Is it still just me, Ender, and John?

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Me and SL

have it now too.

 

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

………… parent

Giant douchebags attempt to seize control

over NY Senate!

Republicans, already wistful for the patronage system that got them booted from power last November, turned two corrupt Democrats and made a power play for control of the chamber.

Democrats countered by claiming the session had been adjourned and the organizing resolution was out of order.  Democrats control the senate Secretary and Sergeant-at-Arms, so it may be a while before this business is resolved.

 I guess Republicans missed their 27-to-1 parking space ratio, "Brunomobile" and private television studio .   Yeah, it's New York.  Yeah, Democrats (especially these two) can be corrupt too.  But this?

At 90 Swan Street, in the building across the street from the Capitol, 45 employees worked for the Senate Research Service, which generated a variety of documents for the Senate, though Democrats and Republicans differ on the partisanship of their service.

A memo circulated late last year by top staff members of Mr. Skelos said the research service needed to coordinate with the Senate Republican Campaign Committee, then the majority’s political arm. The memo’s existence was previously reported by The New York Post .

The Republican party is not the party of "small government".  It is not the party of hard work and personal responsibility.  It is not the party of traditional values.  It is the party of greed, laziness and contempt for public service.

…………

NY is special

Find me a New Yorker who doesn't say their state and local governments aren't FUBAR.

Seems more to me like a case of local corruption adopting whichever label they like to wear best.  Extrapolating their actions to mock the beliefs of Republicans elsewhere seems like a stretch, to me.  After all, we aren't supposed to use dKos as a reference for the average Democrat.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

………… parent

You sound like those

corporate PR people and party leaders after a scandal who keep repeating "this was an isolated incident'

Republican "principles" as stated, are fine and I'm not mocking them.  I'm expressing disgust at this egregious failure to live up to them.

In a larger sense, the contempt for the functions of government they all seem to profess tends to lead to this kind of behavior.  I hereby deny my brush is too broad.

………… parent

If they have the numbers ...

how are they out of order?  The fumbling Democrats were caught completely off guard and so without any idea what they were doing or how they could stop it they just tried to walk out and claim they had adjourned.  That's transparent damage control as far as I am concerned.

And if they have the numbers and wish to exercise those numbers, how does that make them "douchebags"?  Were the Democrats "douchebags" when they got Jim Jeffords to switch in the US Senate to take control?

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Oh, they're not douchebags because they switched.

It's because they're now Republicans

Seriously, if you click through the links it was clear the 2 were bought off with promises of patronage.

 

………… parent

This Is A Test Comment

This is a TEST Comment
Salman Khan
Salman Khan
http://www.google.com/

…………

Obama starts executing his plan to import terrorists to the US.

Boehner: 'First step in the Democrats’ plan to import terrorists into America'

House Minority Leader John Boehner isn't mincing words at news that a Gitmo detainee is set to face a criminal trial after being transferred to Manhattan this morning.

"This is the first step in the Democrats’ plan to import terrorists into America," Boehner said. "Without a plan to close the prison at Guantanamo Bay, the Administration has made the decision to begin transferring these terrorists into the United States, in spite of the overwhelming opposition of the American people and serious questions from Members of Congress of both parties."

Hmm.  Maybe I was more correct than I actually thought with the whole Obama supports terrorists and he is an Osama operative meme...

Is America really safer when we actively import terrorists?  Personally, I have my doubts on that point.

 

Meta: This post is a serious polemic comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

…………

You put in the wrong meta

You put in the wrong meta tag.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Nope.

That tag was carefully edited and phrased.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Boehner being the Crusader

...the Crusader from Ohio does realize that the terrorist he speaks of, are already on US run soil. Bush43 brought them there first. [I can abuse the fixed conventions of words too, to make the unreal appear real].

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Goal posts? Changing the subject?

What doe sthis have to do with my meta tag above?

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

...twas back to Boehner

...twas back to Boehner talking about Obama "importing" terrorist "into" America.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

Again, Goal Posts, Changing the Subject?

What does this have to do with my meta tag above ?

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Ha!

"Just like Bush" my a$$!
:)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

True.

Apparently on the isse of "importing terrorists", they are polar opposites.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Boneheaded?

"This is the first step in the Democrats’ plan to import terrorists into America"

Let's recap.  You're the minority party.  Presumably that leaves you with only two goals: one, to obstruct what should be obstructed based on party principles, and two, to act in such a way that allows you to recapture some seats in the next election.

So where in that does using the phrase "plan to import terrorists" make any sense?  

Guys, you gotta get back in the game with better stuff than this.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

………… parent

Very simple

It is the uniquely Anglo idea that if one party screws up, you have to vote for the other party.  This is done without regard to the fact that the other party will screw up just as poorly.

We keep voting for least worst and each cycle the worst gets worse.

The Republican line in 2010 will be "We're not Democrats", and the Democratic line will be "We're not Republicans."

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

Heh, I actually liked that characterization.

It is a nice combination of technically accurate language coupled with a vicious political claim.  I use pokers.  Boehner just used a red hot one, IMHO.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Technically accurate?

No, it's not. These are not terrorists, they are terrorist suspects. As much as you want "guilty until proven innocent" to be the law of the land when it suits your purposes, it ain't so.

Confessions of terrorist ties under "harsh interrogation techniques" that are inadmissable in a court of law do not prove guilt. (At least, they don't prove guilt on the part of the detainee.)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

See it-there it is- right there...

...the line loony liberals cross in a pathetic effort to claim ownership of the PC mantle.

Excuse me, but to post some obvious legal standard or imply a pseudo moral argument in light of the blood of the 200+ souls this coward has on his hands, is frankly nothing more than an exercise in ideological righteousness.

Sure, we should give him his day in court.

Then we should execute him as quickly as possible and spare him the awful conditions he has been exposed to.

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

………… parent

+4

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Bite me

This specific one may very well be guilty, yeah. There's apparently actual evidence against him. That's why he's getting a trial (which apparently Boehner is getting the vapors about).The fact is that the Bush Administration was so frickin' incompetent that they couldn't even come up with any admissible evidence on so many of the other "200 of the world’s most dangerous men" that they stuck themselves, and the Obama Administration as well, in an unwinnable position. If there is real evidence against these people, then try them. If the only evidence we've got is "confessions" after being tortured, then suck it up, Bush was a dumbass, and we have to let them go.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

You speak as if you are the local diety...

..the final arbiter of truth.

The detainees were plucked off the battlefield, thier circumstances documented, and subsequently they were interrogated.

Nothing much new there. That is how its always been done.

What is new, is the excruciatingly insufferable critiquing of every minutia of detail with respect to this issue coming from over zealous liberals. It's like once they had Bush on the ropes in the polls, having manipulated public opinion by a sociopath like repeating of lie upon lie, they smelled blood in the water and suffered from some auto-snivel syndrome.

It hasn't helped.

You're so naive you listened to Barack when he ran on closing GITMO, without any details of just how.

It is not a Bush problem, it is a US policy problem, and it would have been just as ugly no matter who was in the White House.

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

………… parent

I'll defer to the court system...

...as the final arbiter of truth, thank you. So far they have mostly decided against Bush policies as regards the detainees.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

What? Have they sent out another memo that I missed?

So far they have mostly decided against Bush policies as regards the detainees.

Not quite sure how you got that.  Please explain.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

SCOTUS decisions regarding detainees

Here's the memo you must have missed:

  • Rasul: On June 28, 2004 SCOTUS in a 6-3 decision ruled that the US court system had jurisdiction over non US nationals held at Guantanamo. Rasul had been released to the UK before the ruling on March 29, 2004.

  • Hamdi: On June 28, 2004 SCOTUS 8-1 ruled that U.S. citizens can not be detained indefinitely as enemy combatants without due process. Hamdi was released to Saudi Arabia on October 9, 2004 on condition that he give up his US citizenship.

  • Hamdan: On June 29, 2006, SCOTUS in a 5-3 decision ruled that Bush’s military tribunals were illegal under the UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions and needed Congressional authorization (which was supplied by the Military Commissions Act or MCA of September 2006)

  • Khadr/Hamdan: On June 4, 2007, a military court dismissed charges against them because their Combat Status Review Tribunals (CSRTs) had designated them enemy combatants. The MCA authorizes trials for "unlawful" enemy combatants only, which they had not been designated. On September 24, 2007 in the Khadr case, a military appeals court found that on hearing more evidence a military judge had the power to determine that an alien enemy combatant was also an "unlawful" one. If upheld, this could clear the way for trials under the MCA.

  • al Marri: On June 11, 2007, the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled 2-1 that a legal US resident (similar to Hamdi) can not be denied due process and held indefinitely as an enemy combatant outside the purview of the US judicial system. On December 5, 2008 , the Supreme Court granted certiorari and would likely hear the case in the spring of 2009 if it doesn’t get mooted first by action by the incoming Administration.

 

Add to that: June, 2008: Justices, 5-4, Back Detainee Appeals for Guantánamo

 

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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These are not indictments of the Bush administration...

...they are simply SCOTUS weighing in and helping to shape the way we deal with the problem.

You seem to fail to understand that this is a US policy problem, and want desperately to assign a personality to it in order to vilify him.

This was the federal government acting as best they could in order to deal with these things, having no formal precedent to work from.

You would have us believe Bush was crouched in the oval office ringing his hands and thinking up dastardly ways to jerk the detainees around, nothing could be farther from the truth, he, and those in his administration wanted only to keep Americans safe, and defeat the enemy.

So the above SCOTUS decisions were just part of the whole discovery process that the problems require be better understood before moving forward, not some condemnation of Bush.

2nd, I think the "Bite me" comment was sort of odd and out of no where, it was uncalled for IMO, especially from a new moderator.

But it's your gig, not mine.

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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Crocodile tears.....

How dare you say *bite me* !!! How offensive. 

 Meanwhile in your responses you ignore your own implied insults.

 "...the line loony liberals cross in a pathetic effort....."

"...You speak as if you were the local diety..."

"..... you are so naive ......"

".....suffering from auto snivel syndrome..."

 Do you seriously expect sympathy after re-reading your own statements?

 

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Get your chronology right.

Then, if you have the same sense of self righteousness to, get back to me.

By the way, I was speaking directly to SL, in those instances I will handle my business, and you handle yours, in fact yours should keep anyone busy indefinitely.

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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The bully pulpit

 is all yours.

 Free speech being what it is.

 What you perceive as 'your business' I perceive as causing harm to my country.

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BTW

If you were honestly offended by "bite me" than I apologize. You don't seem like the type that would be offended by that kind of remark though. Feel free to translate it as "I vehemently disagree, good sir!" if you wish!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Naw, I was just busting your _____. ;-)

n/t

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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Indictments?

Did I say they were "indictments"? I said they were examples of the court decisiding against Bush administration policies. Do you disagree with that? Hint, the names of the SCOTUS cases mentioned are:

Rasul v. Bush

Hamdi v. Rumsfeld

Hamdan v. Rumsfeld

al Marri v. Gates

Boumediene v. Bush

So, I think you will have a hard time proving that these decisions were not against the Bush admin.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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No I think those were the people in office t the time...

So logically they would be targeted by the terrorists lawyers.

Think what you will, keep in mind though, by the end of Obamas term he will have the same.

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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Give me a break!

They "happened to be in office at the time" that the policies were created! They weren't simply the guys holding the bag when the lawyers were looking around, they made the bag!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Give me the break...

They were the guys on duty when the planes hit the towers too dude.

So they/we/the US responded the best we knew how given the circumstances.

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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I'm not disputing that

I'm saying that in many cases, the responses they made were later decided to be against the law by the Supreme Court. It's just a fact.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Fair enough

But then it begs the obvious response...what would you have done different? How would you have known to do it that way? And what to do now?

As I said, they acted in accordance with whatever precedent they could, they tried to do it the right way. But who knew what that was then?

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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The party of

 personal responsibility strikes again.

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Who is this Hughe person?

And why do we care if you made some list.  Is this a complete list of all relevant court cases and their current or final dispositions?  How do I know that there are not twice as many cases that went in Bush's favor?

I decline to waste the time looking that up.  If you can provide a more relevant source which can be verified as complete, well then you might have a point.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Not my problem

You objected to my statement that the Supreme Court has mostly decided against Bush in detainee cases, so I provided my evidence. Since you don't want to bother providing or even seeking for any evidence against my statement, then you are free to hold on to your ignorance. :P

(I'd actually be interested to see if you could find even one case involving detainee policies that was decided in favor of the Bush Administration. I can't recall any. There was the Padilla case that never got heard, because the Administration changed their policy before it came up. That's the closest to a "win" that I can come up with.)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Quite right, where's his exit plan?

You're so naive you listened to Barack when he ran on closing GITMO, without any details of just how.

Aren't Presidents supposed to have detailed and infallible exit plans before setting the country on some course of action?  Where's Obama's Gitmo exit plan?

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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IN other words....

cue the violins......

 .... but that is what those mean liberals did to Bush. 

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Why I'm shocked, SHOCKED, I say!

Bite me

Aren't you one of the moderators here?  :)

If there is real evidence against these people, then try them. If the only evidence we've got is "confessions" after being tortured, then suck it up, Bush was a dumbass, and we have to let them go.

Quite right.  Please tell me why he has not let go the ones that have "already been cleared for release", again?  Having been cleared for release I assume that there are no plans to seek a prosecution, so what's the hold up again?

You do get points for trying to follow through on the campaign rhetoric, though.  Obama, not so much until Gitmo is closed and the detainees are ALL either tried and convicted, or released.  This includes the likes of KSM.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I believe I have stated before

...that I do not approve of the way Obama is handling the detainees, either. I think he has made some steps in the right direction, and I understand that he inherited a difficult situation, but I think he can and should do better.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Well, we at least agree on the direction he should take.

even if our motivations are somewhat different.  ;-)

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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I'm with SL

The reprehensibility of one's conduct should not change how we treat anyone.

Everyone is equal under the law, regardless.  They all deserve basic due process.  I fully endorse (but do not expect to see) Osama bin Laden receiving a fair trial by a military court for levying war against the US.  When he is convicted, I expect his punishment to be in line with the laws on the subject -- in this case probably execution (although I personally am opposed to the death penalty in all cases).

Excuse me, but to post some obvious legal standard or imply a pseudo moral argument in light of the blood of the 200+ souls this coward has on his hands, is frankly nothing more than an exercise in ideological righteousness.

Not ideological righteousness, but moral righteousness.  How we treat people reflects on us, not them.  Also the rule of law matters.  We must follow the law wherever it leads, for it is the only way bad law get repealed.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Boehner being the Crusader

...the Crusader from Ohio does realize that the terrorist he speaks of, are already on US run soil. Bush43 brought them there first. [I can abuse the fixed conventions of words too, to make the unreal appear real].

better?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Meh.

... are already on US run soil.

Which, of course, is NOT the same thing as US Soil.  Legally the distinction is relevant.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Insofar as Boehner

...about as ethical and "legally" "true" as calling Boehner a literal Crusader trying to keep the non-Catholic terrorist from being moved to different US run prisons.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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I assume that you know that Gitmo is NOT on ...

US Sovereign Territory, right?  Hence the distinction between what you said and what matters from a legal perspective?  We can't dictate what rights people have in someone else's territory, so we cannot extend out rule of law to other nations.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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The Supreme Court disagrees

Yes, the Bush Administration argued that since Gitmo is not on US soil, the detainees there are not subject to US law, have no rights under the US Constitution. But this argument was rejected in Rasul v. Bush , and again in Boumediene v. Bush .

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Well, you appear to be correct ...

and I stand so corrected.

Given that 50 years of judicial precedent had to be overturned, and given that the two lower courts had both accepted that precedent as binding, and given that this was ultimately a split 6-3 decision I don't feel like I was completely ignorant of the law here.  Still, after the fat lady sang the new precedent has been set.

I'll rely upon Justice Scalia to sum things up here :

The Court today holds that the habeas statute, 28 U. S. C. §2241, extends to aliens detained by the United States military overseas, outside the sovereign borders of the United States and beyond the territorial jurisdictions of all its courts. This is not only a novel holding; it contradicts a half-century-old precedent on which the military undoubtedly relied, Johnson v. Eisentrager, 339 U. S. 763 (1950). The Court's contention that Eisentrager was somehow negated by Braden v. 30th Judicial Circuit Court of Ky., 410 U. S. 484 (1973)--a decision that dealt with a different issue and did not so much as mention Eisentrager--is implausible in the extreme. This is an irresponsible overturning of settled law in a matter of extreme importance to our forces currently in the field. I would leave it to Congress to change §2241, and dissent from the Court's unprecedented holding.

 

MORE PENDING - PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS.

Never mind.  I'm done now.  My only comment on BOUMEDIENE et al. v. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, et al. is that tecnically it is focused on rejecting acts of Congress not of Bush.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Your links don't like me,,,

Your links don't like me,,,

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Sorry, I forgot I had signed up.

If you sign up you can see the links.  Sign-up is free.  Alternatively just find an alternate source for the text of Rasul .v Bush.  The links are just pointing to the actual text of the decision.  There are probably other sources available without signing up.  I just like the findlaw site.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Arg

...that didn't help earlier either.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Je prefere

oyez.org

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Geeze, man. have you heard of Google?

It's a great tool for finding things.  For example, a Google search of "rasul v. bush" yielded the following as the second link:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-334.ZS.html

Note that Scalia's text is in the dissent portion at the top of the page.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Don't feel bad, that was a questionable decision at best!

n/t

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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Meant as a reply to your work in progress

Gitmo might as well be our territory since we exercise full authority over the base.  This was a point brought up during argument (which I actually listened to in its entirety).

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Having now read the relevant portions of Rasul ...

the court is making a distinction between sovereign territory and having jurisdictional control.  This is a radical change from prior court precedent as Scalia points out.  Never the less, the court is certainly able to render a decision that is inconsistent with its prior decisions if it so chooses.  This case is an example of it doing so.

 

Meta: This post is a serious comment.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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