Nonae Caprotinae Open Thread

Hope everyone had an enjoyable Independence Day Weekend. Today we celebrate the wild fig, or we would if we were ancient Romans.

In these modern times, we've got Obama in Russia , the Climate Bill getting a workover by the Senate, and unrest in China .

This is an Open Thread. Write about whatever the fig you'd like.

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The economy

Nifty interactive chart at the NYT showing the economic cycles of the past four decades. You gotta go through all the pages - the last one is particularly cool, and at least a little bit hopeful.

h/t: Andrew Sullivan

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Ooops... Hmmm... Are we finally coming to our senses? ;-)

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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The Constitution guarantee's that no one will be jailed without

being charged or having a trial.  It did this because King George routinely held people without charge or trial till they died in jail. 

One of the things that fried my ass about Darth & dubya's America was that they routinely ignored the Constitution for what they claimed was 'the greater good'.  But it wasn't.  It was never greater and it was never good as far as repecting the words and spirit of our laws and our Constitution.

Now I see Obama doing the very same thing and I can't tell you how sad, disappointed and angry I am with them to be equally willing to sacrifice our Constitution for their own purposes.  Just today some yahoo made the case that if one of the Guantanamo detainees was tried in a court of law and aquitted, the President would have it within his rights to continue to hold that person in military detention for as long as 'the President sees fit'.  How is that constitutional?  How is that upholding the laws rights and spirit of America?  How is that any different from King George?

I wish I was standing here pointing out the paradox of the right who claim to love America more than any 'other' Americans and they love it so much they can flout the laws as they see fit to uphold 'their' America.  But I can't do that today.  I can't do that because some yahoo, the AG & the President think they can still carry on with the worst of George Bush's unconstitutional actions.

I wish this very situation would allow the righties, who love nothing better than to stick it to a successful Democrat, in this case President Obama, and the libertarians & liberals who don't trust the government to be run like a monarchy, but to actually uphold and live by the laes and spirit that made us what we are and pass a law limiting Presidential power.  Hell, pass a Constitutional Amendment stating that no one can dis-obey the Constitution in the name of expediency or in the name of America.  But I don't think the right would support it.  Most of them really believe it's OK to torture for a reason.  Most of them think it's OK to hold people without charging them for ever.  Sadly, as recent events have shown, there are some crazy Democrats that think doing exactly what George Bush did is now OK.  Like it only matters when the other team is running the show.  That's the way they think.  That isn't good enough for this liberal.

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So Dick Cheney ran the 'Executive Assasin's Ring' eh?

www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/09/was-the-cia-hiding-cheney_n_228864.html

"The revelation from seven Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee that they were misled about a critical CIA program has sparked a debate that touches on the most sensitive areas of national security policy. What program, exactly, was being kept secret?..Another theory being bandied about concerns an "executive assassination ring" that was allegedly set up and answered to former Vice President Dick Cheney.  "Congress has no oversight of it," he added. "It's an executive assassination ring essentially, and it's been going on and on and on. Just today in the Times there was a story that its leaders, a three star admiral named [William H.] McRaven, ordered a stop to it because there were so many collateral deaths. Under President Bush's authority, they've been going into countries, not talking to the ambassador or the CIA station chief, and finding people on a list and executing them and leaving. That's been going on, in the name of all of us."

Why am I not surprised?

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Why does this not surprise me

Given the Bush Administration's myopic obsession with the bad guys and whole PNAC thing, this kind of thing doesn't surprise me.   But so far, it's only Hersh who's speculating on exactly what was being withheld, so perhaps it's not as awful as he's making it sound at the moment.

This is a good quote from HuffPo

Asked if this was the basis of her letter to Panetta, Eshoo said she could not discuss what was a "highly classified program." She did, however, note that when Panetta told House Intelligence Committee members what it was that had been kept secret, "the whole committee was stunned, even Republicans." A Republican committee member told Who Runs Gov's Greg Sargent it was something they hadn't heard before.

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Thanks for the ABC link at least

Which has a video that gives you a better idea of what was going on. Not that I think there's anything wrong with checking out such a callipyginous individual!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Me either, especially considering...

...what he's got waiting for him at home day in and day out! LOL!

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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You think it's clever to berate people's wives.

Have you no decency?

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LOL! Look who's talking! LOL!

Michelle Obama is, IMO, an angry racist bitch!

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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You're a real sweetheart, you are. n/t

 

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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What, she is...

n/t

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Could the Vatican really be this gullible...naw...

President Barack Obama promised Pope Benedict on Friday that he would do everything possible to reduce the number of abortions in the United States, the Vatican said.

...oh, I'm sure he did...pffsst...I'm sure he did.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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It's called wearing a

It's called wearing a condom.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Good luck with that...

...point is, he's disingenuous at every turn.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Disingenuous?

What, do you think that it is the goal of liberals to increase the number of abortions? Get a clue!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Well...ya...I do...

...I think liberals luv doing just that actually.
They promote abortions to underage kids, want to pass bills allowing them to terminate without notifying their parents, want school kids being indoctrinated by Planned Parenthood, and to fund that organization with millions and millions of dollars to do exactly that, etc, etc...

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Liberals want less abortions by preventing pregnancies

..through contraception.

Conservatives want less abortions by preventing pregnancies through abstinence-only.

 

Empirical evidence would suggest that Liberals' approach is more grounded in reality and thus more effective.

 

I survived the Bush Administration

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Empirical evidence....hmmm...

Well abstenence works 100% of the time, abortions and condoms are fingers in the dam sort of thinking.

Attempting to reduce adolescent sex to merely a matter with no consequence is the real problem here.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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It does

Abstinence does work without fail.  That isn't the point.

We can draw a parallel to alcohol here.  You must be aged 21 years in all 50 states to purchase alcohol.  However, such a law doesn't really stop those under 21 from drinking.  I happen to believe we'd see a decrease in car accidents and alcohol-related fatalities if the age was lowered.

The jury is back: people enjoy sex.  Abstinence as the one and only policy simply isn't realistic.  Teenagers will do stupid things.  The best way to mitigate any unforeseen (or even foreseen) problems is to give them all the facts.  Part of this is the undisputed scientific fact that abstinence always works.  Another part is the failure rates of different types of birth control.  Yet another is that abortion isn't meant as birth control (if not for the moral implications, the financial ones).

If a child got a cut, you'd want them to know that there is anti-biotic ointment in the house and other first aid techniques.  However, you'd still teach them how to play with their friends safely.

The disconnect here is that the best way to reduce abortions isn't to make them illegal, but to provide the proper education to make unplanned pregnancy less frequent.  Anyone who is pro-life obviously wants to minimize the number of abortions above all else.  Those when faced with evidence that comprehensive sex education is the best way to minimize abortions, but would rather make abortion illegal and provide abstinence-only education are not pro-life in any sense of the word.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Thanks for the ubiquitous "people enjoy sex" comment...

...I fully understand and appreciate that fact, and so they should.

It is a cultural thing for me I suppose.

I have kids, I want them to enjoy their childhood, which IMHO extends well into the 15, 16, 17 range, without the overt liberal political approval of abortion, and commercial selling of sex to them at every turn.

The whole "no worries" there's an abortion waiting for you anytime you need it is contrary to the virtues we teach our kids, those of self responsibility and self discipline especially.

I am not opposed to abortion per say, I am opposed to the casual promotion and government funding of it.

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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I disagree with little of what you say

The only flaw I can find is that there is some sort of approval of abortion as being a good thing.

I'm sure there's a few deranged people out there who enjoy abortions as a twisted way to get back at pro-lifers, but they aren't representative of any serious political commentator.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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I concede it is a subjective viewpoint...

...however I do recognize there is a well financed, deliberate promotion of abortion going on in America.

It is orchestrated by liberal groups and is a very aggressive campaign.

Now, that being said, I do not think those people are demonic characters who are foaming at the mouth to kill babies.

I do think they are misguided people, and in their zeal to do what they see as the right thing are actually contributing to the problem and are part of the undoing of the culture of decency in this country.

 

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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I don't know that it is promotion of abortion

Rather it is promotion of the right to have an abortion.

Those pro-choicers don't think there should be any shame in getting an abortion.  Therefore, they are open about abortion being an option to counterbalance the stigma attached to getting one.  I don't know that anyone advocates abortion over adoption or tries to entice women to have one.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Framing the issue

 as abortion, is a win win for the theocratic right. The issue of course is nuanced, and personal, and complicated, I therefore do not expect the hard right to understand. 

  There are so many lost teens in this world. Do we really want all the underage street kids becoming parents against their will at 14 or 15.

When a 14 year old teen living on the streets wants crack, she can sell herself for twenty bucks. Oops she gets pregnant. You want her to keep the child? Remember she is living on the streets. You want her to get parental notification. Her mother is nowhere to be found. You want the father to take responsibility. The father sold her the crack. Now what? If she doesn't have access to an abortion, then she will have a child, likely addicted to crack. We can assume she will not be a role model as a mother. The 'state' could intervene, and take her child away. Now your tax payer dollars are paying for the  irresponsible teens behavior, because the state is forced to raise the child.

 The answer of course is education.

 But the right rails on against our public education system as worthless, a 'liberal indoctrination' and they screech hysterically against sex education as devil worship. 

 

 

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And in that vein

 Your opinion that 'very aggressive liberal groups' are running a very aggressive campaign' that is well financed to deliberately promote killing babies (your definition of abortion). This definition always precludes the rights of a zygote or fetus to rise above the rights of a young woman.

 Meanwhile very aggressive right wing groups, are running a violently aggressive campaign that is well financed to deliberately promote killing doctors. 

 The right wing has no problem killing people in their zeal to define the 'life' movement.

 I don't ever expect you to concede any nuances in this debate or paint it with any other brush than black and white, while completely ignoring any thoughts or consequences to the rights of women for self determination.

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Clarity

I am not opposed to abortion per say, I am opposed to the casual promotion and government funding of it.

It's your right to oppose government funding of abortion.  That's a different thing, though, than being in opposition to legalized abortion.

The casual promotion bit:  it sounds to me more like you're against the casual promotion of sex (the "commercial selling of sex").   That too, is fine.  And, frankly, many would agree with you that our overall entertainment industry is rather too focused on sex and light on entertainment appropriate for children or young adults.   That, however, is a function of the marketplace giving consumers what they want.  If one supports free enterprise, you've got to be willing to recognize that some outcomes may not be to your particular taste.  The same with being a supporter of liberty: there are some things that are legal because a bounded, limited government should have no say over them, but those activities may not be moral in your eyes.   Putting up with that which might offend is the cost of living in a free society. 

And like anything else, it's all in how you frame it to them.  It's not "overt liberal approval" ... it's "limiting the reach and scope of the government"  That's putting a good conservative spin on it!

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I am in agreement with you by and large...

...I do though take some issue with the notion you put forth here;

If one supports free enterprise, you've got to be willing to recognize that some outcomes may not be to your particular taste.  The same with being a supporter of liberty: there are some things that are legal because a bounded, limited government should have no say over them, but those activities may not be moral in your eyes.   Putting up with that which might offend is the cost of living in a free society.

I think, no, I know one can certainly be a fervent supporter of liberty, restrained government, and free enterprise...but also stand on and advocate for self responsibility, decency, and an ethical public decorum.

If we as a country do not hold ourselves to those standards, well, it's just a race for the bottom where it is essentially a free for all and anything goes.

It's Rome all over again.

You're the history aficionado, isn't that the unintended fate of many a great society...? ;-)

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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But the rub...

is who enforces it?

I'm all for "an ethical public decorum" -- it's my modus operandi, if you've not noticed.   And I'm old fashioned enough to actually understand what you're saying.   But all one can do is live it, and try to affect those around you.   I stop short of requiring my government to police such standards. 

Even to the point of risking letting Rome fall.   But I don't think you nor I are smart enough to know exactly which actions will be lead to destruction and which to salvation.   It could be that the actions that seem shakey today are the ones that lead to a strengthing of the Republic.  Only hindsight is 20/20.

Do you read Heinlein, btw?

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I'm with you

If the people want bread and circuses, give it to them...even if you know it's a bad idea.

One day we'll learn.  Maybe not today, but one day.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Yes, there in lies the dilemma...

...and oh sure, I luv Heinlein! Read tons of his stories as a kid and young man. (Not that I'm not still just a kid in a 45 year olds body...lol!)

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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I'm ardently pro-choice. However,

 What I AM opposed to is the idea of teens being sexually active and using sex rather casually, as many of them, particularly nowadays, do.  I think they should not be punished for a mistakes they make by forcing them to carry a baby to term, but I'm also in favor of better sex education and more open discussion between adolescents and their parents.  Teens who do openly discuss sex with their parents and who also come from more educated backgrounds are far more likely to make prudent, sensible decisions about sex.

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XwrpSPBwqK

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Yeah, OK

And conservatives are trying to promote unsanitary back-alley abortions, get control over reproducton in the hands of men instead of women, and enforce their personal religious values on everyone. I can see this conversation would go nowhere fast.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I have the evidence for my claims, it's happening everyday...

...you offer only wives tales.

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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I do hope you realize...

...that I don't actually believe those things. I was making a point that it is easy to cast aspersions on the opposite point of view if you simply assume the worst intentions. Such assumptions are rarely justified, IMHO.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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;-) Fair enough...

n/t

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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Here's a crowbar

I think you're going to need it to open your mind on this topic.

Nobody "luvs" abortions.   But modern medicine makes them possible and many citizens believe that the State should not be allowed to dictate to a woman what happens inside her own body.

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See

This ;-)

(Oh I see it just above this post, anyway...)

 

Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein

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