I doubt I will contribute much though. I haven't been paying close attention to politics and frankly when I do, I'm sorry that i wasted the time on it. I'm in a place where I'd rather just have fun and not think about how screwed up everything is. I've read a few diaries on DailyKos the past couple weeks and when I've commented, I've mostly just ended up in a fight and it has been very unsatisfactory to me. Best to not participate at all when it is like that. And life is good for me; I am enjoying other things in my life right now, so it just seems to be in my best interest to leave politics to other people for the time being.
I have no plans to participate here much as the site exists today. I have considerable affection for many SCers past and present, but the site is well below the critical mass needed for a vibrant political debate. I wish it was not like this. I wish that it was the political echo chambers that were starved for participation.
BTW, stiney, sorry to have ben so prickly on your facebook page with your friend Kelly. I should have just kept my thoughts to myself.
for the folks who are screaming at Democrats, holding signs with Swastika's, trying to prevent anyone from having any kind of civil discussion at democratic townhalls........ *wait for it* ...... because union thugs chose to show up to counteract the screaming bullies, who think that lynching democrats in effigy to prevent health care reform is funny.
RedState whines that the union thugs are so mean for showing up to keep the peace.
Meanwhile Rush Limbaugh calls on his talk show listeners to show up in Florida against health reform, because you know Obama just like Hitler wants to kill old people by asking them to sign a living will.
The Health Insurance Industry is so afraid of competition that they will go to any lengths to prevent it, including lying to people that reforming our health care system means your life will be intentionally eliminated as a cost cutting measure.
This is democracy in action sponsored by the anti-reform pros, Rush Limbaugh and Glenn (I just want the truth) Beck, stifling debate with hordes of screaming birthers who shout liar liar to prevent any conversation whatsoever.
This is democracy in action, Rush Limbaugh's free speech right to compare Obama to Hitler, and the Democrats to the Nazi's.
We've determined that states cannot leave the US. However, we haven't determined if states can be kicked out.
If I'm in Congress, I'm sponsoring a bill to expel most of the old confederacy from the union and telling them not to let the door hit them on the way out.
And whenever someone talks about "single-payer" gently remind them that Medicare is a government-run single-payer program but for old folks only. And whenever someone talks about "socialized medicine" gently remind them that the VA hospitals are socialized medicine for veterans only.
I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd I'm listening to...
She whines and complains about the media attacking her kids, then uses her kids as political pawns suggesting that her children could be deemed unfit to live, by Obama's Death Panel.
The lies and misinformation are stunning.
The media, just as they did in the lead up to Iraq, seems to be ignoring the truth. Signing a living will is is not the mass murder of old people by our new black Hitler.
Of course if you believed this garbage, then you might feel that you should take matters into your own hands and eliminate this new black Hitler, to save the world.
The conservatives are spreading lies, and leaving a loaded gun on the table, waiting for some unstable person, to take action, just like the shooting of Dr. Tiller.
That all this misinformation is left uncorrected by the media, is appalling. Someone is going to get shot. And the macho Christians will claim it is their righteous duty, while throwing their hands up in the air and saying how much they love America, pretending like they didn't want anyone to die.
Granted this is a fringe element, but it is getting bigger and bigger. Responsible journalists should put out the fire, before we all get burned.
Glenn Beck has been Legion throughout this whole deal, even for his standard gaudy rhetoric.
David Icke is looking saner and saner in comparison every second.
Instead of talking about what's actually going on, prominent figures in the "news" industry are blaring the sirens that Obama is about to kick the Polish Jews out of Germany .
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
We'll have to let the crazies have their say, no matter how repugnant their points of view may be. Yet, it's agreed that engaging in the kind of speech that's definitely a call to action of some sort or other (i. e. "Kill him!" , "Off with his head", or "Get him!) is not defensible.
Sarah 'death boards' Palin, your facebook best friend says,
" Let’s not give the proponents of nationalized health care any reason to criticize us."
"... we must stick to a discussion of the issues and not get sidetracked by tactics that can be accused of leading to intimidation or harassment. Such tactics diminish our nation’s civil discourse..." (!)
Glenn "I just want the truth" Beck says,
"All it will take is just one Timmothy McVeigh to ruin everything."
I guess it's Glenn and Sarah's insurance policy against the outrageous and false allegations against health insurance reform.
First talk about health reform as in terms of nazi death camps, then backtrack just in case any of the irresponsible and inflammatory rhetoric surrounding the health care debate, actually spurs some lunatic to get his gun and take his country back.
Yes, the killer of Dr. Tiller, is their secret hero. They just can't say it out loud.
firings. Now it's become clear that US Attorneys were fired if they didn't go after Democratic politicians. Thousands of e-mails were finally released yesterday and they show that bushco knowingly & purposefully lied through their teeth to the media and the American people about why the US Attorneys were fired.
I can remember being here a couple years ago when this was going down and I remember what some of our more conservative members here called some of us who said it wasn't right. Well, what do you have to say about your vaulted bush43 Administration now? They lied to you too. They corrupted the US Dept of Justice. They corrupted the rule of law all the while hiding behind the robes of the blindfolded woman hoding up the scales.
Somehow when I read right wing sites like RedState, Fox & all & they now uniformly say that the 8 month old Obama Adminstration is the most corrupt and treasonous Administration ever to have served America...well, I just have to shake my head. How do these people sleep at night? Guess the protections and rules that were built up in the Constitution, Bill of Rights and ensuing laws are only applicable to Democratic Administrations. Apparently it's OK for the right to break laws & rules and norms because Republicans Gone Wild is OK. Go figure.
C'mon, prosecutors are political appointees that are implicitly there for political reasons.
In seriousness, the key point you didn't explicitly state was that this happened well after the normal turnover AND they were fired for not doing the proper dirty work or in some cases fired for not prosecuting at the whims of some White House staff. And Rove and friends apparently lied through their teeth.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
that after listening to CSpan viewers call in regarding Health Care Reform, the wingnuts who are promoted by Fox News, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity as representing 'a majority' of the electorate, who are hysterically and frantically opposed to reforming our health insurance industry, do not represent the majority opinion.
Most callers are more worried that the government is going to take away the Medicare benefits, (the socialized medicine) or the Medicare Part D. In other words they want to keep their single payer health coverage.
It was a refreshing dose of sanity, from all sides of the political spectrum. Most folks want health reform, they are just afraid that it could change the benefits they are receiving now.
It always kills me that the Media mainstreams these extremists as if they are the majority, when they are nothing more than an uninformed fringe, and at least half of the screamers are folks that are insecure about having their social security and medicare taken away.
A new coalition is working together that includes SEIU and Big Pharma (!) and will be airing ads to reassure folks that the President's Health Reform plan is good.
Now that's a coalition. It is called Americans for Stable Quality Care, and the participants include the AMA, the Federation of American Hospitals, SEIU and PhRMA.
This is so encouraging. Wonders never cease. I imagine that the health reform proposed won't be exactly what I would like, but folks need to remember that getting medicare costs and insurance costs down, will build a generally stronger US economy, that will be more competitive.
This reminds me of the coalition between ranchers and tree huggers in Montana, that worked together to thwart land developers from gobbling up ranch land.
A new poll finds that Americans would rather pay higher taxes than have their Social Security benefits cut! (!!!!!!!)
It has always and forever puzzled me, that when folks talk about wanting to keep medicare, then rant on the cost, that the one most obvious solution is always overlooked, as in pay a little bit more in taxes. In the long run it is cheaper than paying a lot more in insurance premiums, or being homeless and dying on the streets!
Frankly I got burned out on this site when the only opposition view was centinel joyfully declaring that the First Lady is a racist bitch.
I have truly enjoyed this site, and all the different points of view. I have learned a lot about myself, history and others from the interaction.
As for being a moderator, I will say, 'Thanks but no thanks'. I am too blunt, mean and downright rude to play an objective role on the front page.
Although you have to admit that the most viewed conversations, were those where bluntness, rudeness and meanness were in full display. Don't you love how GoRight threw a hissy fit over BR. We came to his free speech rights defense, and what does he do? He disappears.
My question is why is it that no conservatives want to play any more. My answer is that the real issue behind the issues is dog whistle politics in fully coded display.
You are the most frequent poster. And for some time, you've been the only liberal here. And I don't mean this to be offensive, but I think the libertarians mentioned it, and the conservatives too, that duelling with you is not, er, fun. Your style is not conducive to actual debate. That doesn't make it bad or inappropriate for the site. My style isn't really that helpful, either. But it means that neither of us can be the "core" of the debaters here.
The other liberal posters (and yes, I mean you too, kindness ;} ) failed to engage in any conversation with them. Most threads ended up being one-on-ones. Skymutt and GR would have fun, but skymutt's got other stuff going on now. Tlaloc is working. BR got his feelings hurt and took his ball home. SL is probably busy, too. Pico, knocienz, etc. don't want to talk to conservatives any more. John and the yellow bars would talk economics, and the liberals would ignore it.
This site has always had more liberal-ish than conservative posters. Attracting and keeping conservatives has always been an issue. So, without any variety on the liberal side, the conservatives and libertarians have left.
I'd post more frequent open threads, but with the volume of discussion I haven't seen the need. I will continue to watch the site.
There ARE still things to talk about. And with the history we have here, there are opportunities to look at past discussions and positions and compare them to what's happening today. But if it's just gonna be you and me, well, we know how that one usually ends ;-)
Are you offended that I don't think you're the blog superstar?
Or do you disagree with any of the observations I made regarding participation by other liberals and its impact on the conservative/libertarian volume of posting?
(Maybe you should reread what you wrote about er, my fun debating style. Where this superstar crap comes in I have no clue. I certainly would not have spent years posting on this teeny tiny blog if I wanted to be a blog superstar. What a bogus thing to say. If you want to dish it out ....well nevermind. It ain't worth it.)
What offends me is your hue and cry for folks to be more *civil* at the same time you throw backhanded personal insinuations my way with that little winky smiley face, while on the other hand you have oft defended rank comments of conservatives (just shut up and do the laundry) as just innocent or big hearted or whatever. Fine. If you want to throw rocks you could at least own up to it.
Mam it sounds to me like you all think that my posting style is the cause of the lack of participation here, cause my debating style is just not, er, fun. You certainly have a right to your opinion, but I just don't see it that way. There is an easy fix for that. Hope y'all have 'fun' debating.
Every few weeks I take a quick look at the "Latest Comments" on SC to see if there's any trend away from the bulk of comments coming from the individuals who make rational, good-faith discussion/debate impossible and who destroyed what was once a gem, an oasis of the blogosphere. This time I noticed discussion of low volume here and some lamenting of a downward trend in participation (and apparently in number and diversity of commenters), so I read a bit.
I'm responding to this particular comment because it was silly -- and somewhat indicative of the problem here on SC -- that Purpleface would say that I left because my "feelings were hurt". Obviously that's a gross misrepresentation, although it's quite possibly that PF actually believes it. Obviously I left because this site, which once was indeed a rare (perhaps unique) place in the blogosphere where people of diverse ideologies could engage in substantive, intelligent, truly mutually responsive, good-faith discussion/debate had become dominated by people who, in addition to being somewhat incapable of reason and logical argumentation, were, more importantly and devastatingly (to SC) unwilling to engage in good faith -- to make a reasonable effort to listen, consider, and respond directly and sincerely to others' arguments and questions, and who instead persisted incessantly, annoyingly and disruptively with non sequiturs, straw men, irrelevancies, evasions, etc -- anything to avoid conceding any point, even on just some part of a larger debate, and to instead persist with the pretense that they had an actual valid counter-argument.
It simply had become no longer interesting, productive in terms of learning and shaping my views or facilitating the same for others, fun, or worthwhile in any sense, and instead was just a waste of time.
I tried, imperfectly, to raise awareness of this deterioration of quality, particularly on the good faith dimension (as opposed to people being limited in intellectual ability, which, while changeable, is harder to change and more to ask of someone than to ask that they make a reasonable effort to listen, consider and respond directly and sincerely). I found that, among those still involved with SC, most didn't share my view of this problem, instead focusing on the symptom of lack of civility (to which I contributed) rather than the cause of the problem: lack of good faith, either outright insincerity (which most likely was very frequently the case) or the consistent habit of just firing off some combative reply rather than making a reasonable effort to listen and think first.
Anyway, I'll continue to remember fondly SC's glory days before SC became dominated by ML, GR, Centinel (and I still wonder if GR and Centinel are one), Corph, and one or two other contributors to SC's ruin and possible demise. Discussions/debates with people like Brendan, knocienz, john, and many others who were actually willing and able to engage in intelligent, rational, mutually-responsive discussion/debate even if that meant risking exposure of some weakness in their arguments. I guess they had enough integrity, personal security, and desire for intellectual growth to handle that, unlike the aforementioned folks who destroyed that environment.
As for Forvm, for the most part (with a couple of exceptions) it's just a larger collection of folks of that same bad sort, albeit more intellectual than the bad actors I've mentioned. Aside from literally just a couple of individuals at Forvm, the folks there will engage in all the same silly baloney and evasive tactics that I mentioned above, and for the same reasons: personal insecurity and hyperpartisanship, both of which keep them from conceding any point that challenges their core hyperpartisan talking points and positions.
I hope SC remains and at some point, for some reason, somehow, when I take a look I'll see comments coming mainly from new folks and individuals who weren't part of the aforementioned problem, and then I'll joing the conversation again and hope I find something closer to the old SC.
Someday, maybe you can find a perfect blog home for your brilliant vastly superior intellectual mind, that bends only to the rationality of the issues, while never taking the low road or the personal cheap shots. Oh wait never mind, you just took a whole bunch of cheap shots. We can logically deduce therefore that you sir, are a hypocrite.
Not that I intend to waste much time trying to get you to discuss anything in a rational and fact-based manner, but for what this advice is worth, A + B does not equal A (assuming B is not zero). You are apparently incapable of distinguishing between comments containing insults plus substantive, relevant, rational argumentation vs. comments containing just the former.
Thanks a bunch for playing a major role in the ruining of SC (although, for what it's worth, you were here with your high volume of consistently absurd and disruptive comments even when SC was good; it's just that there were enough good commenters that quality discussion/debate was possible despite your presence)
All it takes, if joined by a few similar others and not resisted by the rest (most of whom instead just leave), is some very bad, thread-ruining qualities and the will to apply them in abundance. As I said, ruining SC wasn't something you could..er..accomplish on your own. You needed a few similar, high-comment-volume, moronic, bad-faith commenters like GR, Centinel and Corph, along with the flight of most good participants and misguided tolerance by the remaining participants. But yes, you did contribute substantially to the decline/demise of SC through persistent dedication of your time and effort to polluting every thread, so go ahead and feel proud of that if you wish.
Oh, and you definitely should start participating -- heavily -- at www.TheForvm.org
A little more sweetly and maybe you can galvanize some sympathy. After all the vicious attacks you have put out against various posters here I don't think your pointing fingers is going to gain much sympathy, but keep trying.
Why don't you make a list of who is and is not worthy to post in your mind, oh great one.
Then start your own blog and invite all your new friends to join you in a rational discussion of some relevant issue. That would at least be constructive.
Please do have the last word, or should I say insult.
however much their comments annoyed me, is that they actually weren't holier-than-thou meta all the time. It was amusing to have a shrinking violet / church lady / scolding coward come down and taunt us from time to time, but it got old fast and I wasn't sorry you stopped posting for a while.
For all our hyperpartisan differences, GoRight and I put more substance into a single comment and response than I saw you come up with in your entire posting history. Centinel and I got a lot out of our little spars too. You, on the other hand, taught me nothing.
You probably still aren't aware of the irony of calling other posters moronic and lamenting the quality of discourse. You probably think being the only poster who managed to tick off everyone made you some poor misunderstood beacon of rationality, and not the condescending jerk epitomized by your very username.
Well, you've managed to cover the bases of (1) a laughably invalid core premise, and (2) a core non sequitur. Well done.
The former is your premise that I didn't bring substance. That's obviously an extremely silly assertion, as any review of my diary and commenting history would show. It just so happens that a few months ago for a couple of weeks or so, my focus was on a last ditch effort to try to turn SC away from all the idiotic hyperpartisanship and bad-faith behavior that was dominating SC due to the high portion of such comments from you, GR, Centinel, and ML, so naturally many of my comments were of a meta discussion nature.
Your non sequitur comes despite something I already clearly explained -- back then and again just now on this thread: the distinction and critical difference between civility and good-faith engagement. Despite my explanations, you conflate the two into "quality of discourse", either deliberately to contrive some contradiction on my part that doesn't really exist, or out of sincere cluelessness and inability to make even such a basic, fundamental distinction, either of which is quite possible in your case.
As I've noted, my efforts to get SC to change course were imperfect, in particular because I didn't resist being very frank with the people ruining SC, including insulting them (which was very much a two-way street, of course). But that doesn't change the fact that a handful of individuals, combined with the complacency, enabling, or flight of others (largely in response, I presume) ruined SC. Put that on your mantle.
As for being a moderator, I will say, "Thanks but no thanks" . I am too blunt, mean and downright rude to play an objective role on the front page."
Glad you're honest enough to admit that, missliberties. Lots of people on here, myself included, agree with you wholeheartedly. Frankly, I think people like YOU have helped cause a lot of resentment among conservatives, and, in fact, help drive people down in Southie and Charlestown into the arms of demogogues like the late Boston School Committeewoman, Louise Day Hicks and the late Boston City Councilor, James Kelly.
Also, while I didn't vote the McCain/Palin ticket, people like you make me ALMOST wish I had, sometimes.
Comments :
I may give the forvm a try at some point
I doubt I will contribute much though. I haven't been paying close attention to politics and frankly when I do, I'm sorry that i wasted the time on it. I'm in a place where I'd rather just have fun and not think about how screwed up everything is. I've read a few diaries on DailyKos the past couple weeks and when I've commented, I've mostly just ended up in a fight and it has been very unsatisfactory to me. Best to not participate at all when it is like that. And life is good for me; I am enjoying other things in my life right now, so it just seems to be in my best interest to leave politics to other people for the time being.
I have no plans to participate here much as the site exists today. I have considerable affection for many SCers past and present, but the site is well below the critical mass needed for a vibrant political debate. I wish it was not like this. I wish that it was the political echo chambers that were starved for participation.
BTW, stiney, sorry to have ben so prickly on your facebook page with your friend Kelly. I should have just kept my thoughts to myself.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
No sweat
The income tax passed, so she should be in good spirits.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
We are supposed to feel sorry
for the folks who are screaming at Democrats, holding signs with Swastika's, trying to prevent anyone from having any kind of civil discussion at democratic townhalls........ *wait for it* ...... because union thugs chose to show up to counteract the screaming bullies, who think that lynching democrats in effigy to prevent health care reform is funny.
RedState whines that the union thugs are so mean for showing up to keep the peace.
Meanwhile Rush Limbaugh calls on his talk show listeners to show up in Florida against health reform, because you know Obama just like Hitler wants to kill old people by asking them to sign a living will.
The Health Insurance Industry is so afraid of competition that they will go to any lengths to prevent it, including lying to people that reforming our health care system means your life will be intentionally eliminated as a cost cutting measure.
This is democracy in action sponsored by the anti-reform pros, Rush Limbaugh and Glenn (I just want the truth) Beck, stifling debate with hordes of screaming birthers who shout liar liar to prevent any conversation whatsoever.
This is democracy in action, Rush Limbaugh's free speech right to compare Obama to Hitler, and the Democrats to the Nazi's.
Good times.
I'm only half stupid
I gotta blame Lincoln
We've determined that states cannot leave the US. However, we haven't determined if states can be kicked out.
If I'm in Congress, I'm sponsoring a bill to expel most of the old confederacy from the union and telling them not to let the door hit them on the way out.
And whenever someone talks about "single-payer" gently remind them that Medicare is a government-run single-payer program but for old folks only. And whenever someone talks about "socialized medicine" gently remind them that the VA hospitals are socialized medicine for veterans only.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Do you love the 'death panel' framing
by Sarah Palin.
She whines and complains about the media attacking her kids, then uses her kids as political pawns suggesting that her children could be deemed unfit to live, by Obama's Death Panel.
The lies and misinformation are stunning.
The media, just as they did in the lead up to Iraq, seems to be ignoring the truth. Signing a living will is is not the mass murder of old people by our new black Hitler.
Of course if you believed this garbage, then you might feel that you should take matters into your own hands and eliminate this new black Hitler, to save the world.
The conservatives are spreading lies, and leaving a loaded gun on the table, waiting for some unstable person, to take action, just like the shooting of Dr. Tiller.
That all this misinformation is left uncorrected by the media, is appalling. Someone is going to get shot. And the macho Christians will claim it is their righteous duty, while throwing their hands up in the air and saying how much they love America, pretending like they didn't want anyone to die.
Granted this is a fringe element, but it is getting bigger and bigger. Responsible journalists should put out the fire, before we all get burned.
I'm only half stupid
Entertainers posing as editorial Anchors
Glenn Beck has been Legion throughout this whole deal, even for his standard gaudy rhetoric.
David Icke is looking saner and saner in comparison every second.
Instead of talking about what's actually going on, prominent figures in the "news" industry are blaring the sirens that Obama is about to kick the Polish Jews out of Germany
.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
If we want a truly democratic society, however,
We'll have to let the crazies have their say, no matter how repugnant their points of view may be. Yet, it's agreed that engaging in the kind of speech that's definitely a call to action of some sort or other (i. e. "Kill him!" , "Off with his head", or "Get him!) is not defensible.
I would like to try out the Forvm at some point--like maybe...
right now. It has been rather slow here lately.
Brutus and I are posting there
It's a more controlled atmosphere and there's a lot more discussion taking place.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
It's also fun to check in
with Freedom Democrats every now and then.
(listed on the right side)
It's a blog where adam ricketson posts sometimes. It's slow there too, but it's interesting. It's a clue as to what some libertarians are thinking.
I'm only half stupid
"It's a more controlled
"It's a more controlled atmosphere"
Just don't post links to Robert Palmer songs just because someone dropped the line "...don't know where the money went."
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Heh
I lol'd both at the link and at the response.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
An insurance policy
Sarah 'death boards' Palin, your facebook best friend says,
" Let’s not give the proponents of nationalized health care any reason to criticize us."
"... we must stick to a discussion of the issues and not get sidetracked by tactics that can be accused of leading to intimidation or harassment. Such tactics diminish our nation’s civil discourse..." (!)
Glenn "I just want the truth" Beck says,
"All it will take is just one Timmothy McVeigh to ruin everything."
I guess it's Glenn and Sarah's insurance policy against the outrageous and false allegations against health insurance reform.
First talk about health reform as in terms of nazi death camps, then backtrack just in case any of the irresponsible and inflammatory rhetoric surrounding the health care debate, actually spurs some lunatic to get his gun and take his country back.
Yes, the killer of Dr. Tiller, is their secret hero. They just can't say it out loud.
I'm only half stupid
bush43 e-mails released. Rove & co lied about US Attorney
firings. Now it's become clear that US Attorneys were fired if they didn't go after Democratic politicians. Thousands of e-mails were finally released yesterday and they show that bushco knowingly & purposefully lied through their teeth to the media and the American people about why the US Attorneys were fired.
I can remember being here a couple years ago when this was going down and I remember what some of our more conservative members here called some of us who said it wasn't right. Well, what do you have to say about your vaulted bush43 Administration now? They lied to you too. They corrupted the US Dept of Justice. They corrupted the rule of law all the while hiding behind the robes of the blindfolded woman hoding up the scales.
Somehow when I read right wing sites like RedState, Fox & all & they now uniformly say that the 8 month old Obama Adminstration is the most corrupt and treasonous Administration ever to have served America...well, I just have to shake my head. How do these people sleep at night? Guess the protections and rules that were built up in the Constitution, Bill of Rights and ensuing laws are only applicable to Democratic Administrations. Apparently it's OK for the right to break laws & rules and norms because Republicans Gone Wild is OK. Go figure.
I'm saying, when stffo of the POTUS' staff does it...
C'mon, prosecutors are political appointees that are implicitly there for political reasons.
In seriousness, the key point you didn't explicitly state was that this happened well after the normal turnover AND they were fired for not doing the proper dirty work or in some cases fired for not prosecuting at the whims of some White House staff. And Rove and friends apparently lied through their teeth.
In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,
Pleased to report
that after listening to CSpan viewers call in regarding Health Care Reform, the wingnuts who are promoted by Fox News, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity as representing 'a majority' of the electorate, who are hysterically and frantically opposed to reforming our health insurance industry, do not represent the majority opinion.
Most callers are more worried that the government is going to take away the Medicare benefits, (the socialized medicine) or the Medicare Part D. In other words they want to keep their single payer health coverage.
It was a refreshing dose of sanity, from all sides of the political spectrum. Most folks want health reform, they are just afraid that it could change the benefits they are receiving now.
It always kills me that the Media mainstreams these extremists as if they are the majority, when they are nothing more than an uninformed fringe, and at least half of the screamers are folks that are insecure about having their social security and medicare taken away.
I'm only half stupid
Holy Cow! The SEIU and Big Pharma get married
A new coalition is working together that includes SEIU and Big Pharma (!) and will be airing ads to reassure folks that the President's Health Reform plan is good.
Now that's a coalition. It is called Americans for Stable Quality Care, and the participants include the AMA, the Federation of American Hospitals, SEIU and PhRMA.
This is so encouraging. Wonders never cease. I imagine that the health reform proposed won't be exactly what I would like, but folks need to remember that getting medicare costs and insurance costs down, will build a generally stronger US economy, that will be more competitive.
This reminds me of the coalition between ranchers and tree huggers in Montana, that worked together to thwart land developers from gobbling up ranch land.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26076.html#ixzz0O421eQRA
I'm only half stupid
Equally astonishing
A new poll finds that Americans would rather pay higher taxes than have their Social Security benefits cut! (!!!!!!!)
It has always and forever puzzled me, that when folks talk about wanting to keep medicare, then rant on the cost, that the one most obvious solution is always overlooked, as in pay a little bit more in taxes. In the long run it is cheaper than paying a lot more in insurance premiums, or being homeless and dying on the streets!
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0809/New_poll_shows_strong_suppor...
Aug. !3th is turning out to be a good day.
I'm only half stupid
Why don't you have posting privlidges?
Yea so I can't spell privledges. I'll google it later. Seriously I think you're the most frequent & consistent poster now.
I am too partisan
Frankly I got burned out on this site when the only opposition view was centinel joyfully declaring that the First Lady is a racist bitch.
I have truly enjoyed this site, and all the different points of view. I have learned a lot about myself, history and others from the interaction.
As for being a moderator, I will say, 'Thanks but no thanks'. I am too blunt, mean and downright rude to play an objective role on the front page.
Although you have to admit that the most viewed conversations, were those where bluntness, rudeness and meanness were in full display. Don't you love how GoRight threw a hissy fit over BR. We came to his free speech rights defense, and what does he do? He disappears.
My question is why is it that no conservatives want to play any more. My answer is that the real issue behind the issues is dog whistle politics in fully coded display.
I'm only half stupid
Why no conservatives?
You are the most frequent poster. And for some time, you've been the only liberal here. And I don't mean this to be offensive, but I think the libertarians mentioned it, and the conservatives too, that duelling with you is not, er, fun. Your style is not conducive to actual debate. That doesn't make it bad or inappropriate for the site. My style isn't really that helpful, either. But it means that neither of us can be the "core" of the debaters here.
The other liberal posters (and yes, I mean you too, kindness ;} ) failed to engage in any conversation with them. Most threads ended up being one-on-ones. Skymutt and GR would have fun, but skymutt's got other stuff going on now. Tlaloc is working. BR got his feelings hurt and took his ball home. SL is probably busy, too. Pico, knocienz, etc. don't want to talk to conservatives any more. John and the yellow bars would talk economics, and the liberals would ignore it.
This site has always had more liberal-ish than conservative posters. Attracting and keeping conservatives has always been an issue. So, without any variety on the liberal side, the conservatives and libertarians have left.
I'd post more frequent open threads, but with the volume of discussion I haven't seen the need. I will continue to watch the site.
There ARE still things to talk about. And with the history we have here, there are opportunities to look at past discussions and positions and compare them to what's happening today. But if it's just gonna be you and me, well, we know how that one usually ends ;-)
Lame
Your fake civility is on notice.
If you have never heard the term passive aggressive, look it up some time. It fits you to a tee.
Oh and thanks for all the lectures.
I'm only half stupid
What?
Are you offended that I don't think you're the blog superstar?
Or do you disagree with any of the observations I made regarding participation by other liberals and its impact on the conservative/libertarian volume of posting?
This looks to me like most comments are MissL vs X. My original point stands: not enough liberals are posting
Er, 'fun' debate, ;-} *wink*
(Maybe you should reread what you wrote about er, my fun debating style. Where this superstar crap comes in I have no clue. I certainly would not have spent years posting on this teeny tiny blog if I wanted to be a blog superstar. What a bogus thing to say. If you want to dish it out ....well nevermind. It ain't worth it.)
What offends me is your hue and cry for folks to be more *civil* at the same time you throw backhanded personal insinuations my way with that little winky smiley face, while on the other hand you have oft defended rank comments of conservatives (just shut up and do the laundry) as just innocent or big hearted or whatever. Fine. If you want to throw rocks you could at least own up to it.
Mam it sounds to me like you all think that my posting style is the cause of the lack of participation here, cause my debating style is just not, er, fun. You certainly have a right to your opinion, but I just don't see it that way. There is an easy fix for that. Hope y'all have 'fun' debating.
I'm only half stupid
What a shame
Every few weeks I take a quick look at the "Latest Comments" on SC to see if there's any trend away from the bulk of comments coming from the individuals who make rational, good-faith discussion/debate impossible and who destroyed what was once a gem, an oasis of the blogosphere. This time I noticed discussion of low volume here and some lamenting of a downward trend in participation (and apparently in number and diversity of commenters), so I read a bit.
I'm responding to this particular comment because it was silly -- and somewhat indicative of the problem here on SC -- that Purpleface would say that I left because my "feelings were hurt". Obviously that's a gross misrepresentation, although it's quite possibly that PF actually believes it. Obviously I left because this site, which once was indeed a rare (perhaps unique) place in the blogosphere where people of diverse ideologies could engage in substantive, intelligent, truly mutually responsive, good-faith discussion/debate had become dominated by people who, in addition to being somewhat incapable of reason and logical argumentation, were, more importantly and devastatingly (to SC) unwilling to engage in good faith -- to make a reasonable effort to listen, consider, and respond directly and sincerely to others' arguments and questions, and who instead persisted incessantly, annoyingly and disruptively with non sequiturs, straw men, irrelevancies, evasions, etc -- anything to avoid conceding any point, even on just some part of a larger debate, and to instead persist with the pretense that they had an actual valid counter-argument.
It simply had become no longer interesting, productive in terms of learning and shaping my views or facilitating the same for others, fun, or worthwhile in any sense, and instead was just a waste of time.
I tried, imperfectly, to raise awareness of this deterioration of quality, particularly on the good faith dimension (as opposed to people being limited in intellectual ability, which, while changeable, is harder to change and more to ask of someone than to ask that they make a reasonable effort to listen, consider and respond directly and sincerely). I found that, among those still involved with SC, most didn't share my view of this problem, instead focusing on the symptom of lack of civility (to which I contributed) rather than the cause of the problem: lack of good faith, either outright insincerity (which most likely was very frequently the case) or the consistent habit of just firing off some combative reply rather than making a reasonable effort to listen and think first.
Anyway, I'll continue to remember fondly SC's glory days before SC became dominated by ML, GR, Centinel (and I still wonder if GR and Centinel are one), Corph, and one or two other contributors to SC's ruin and possible demise. Discussions/debates with people like Brendan, knocienz, john, and many others who were actually willing and able to engage in intelligent, rational, mutually-responsive discussion/debate even if that meant risking exposure of some weakness in their arguments. I guess they had enough integrity, personal security, and desire for intellectual growth to handle that, unlike the aforementioned folks who destroyed that environment.
As for Forvm, for the most part (with a couple of exceptions) it's just a larger collection of folks of that same bad sort, albeit more intellectual than the bad actors I've mentioned. Aside from literally just a couple of individuals at Forvm, the folks there will engage in all the same silly baloney and evasive tactics that I mentioned above, and for the same reasons: personal insecurity and hyperpartisanship, both of which keep them from conceding any point that challenges their core hyperpartisan talking points and positions.
I hope SC remains and at some point, for some reason, somehow, when I take a look I'll see comments coming mainly from new folks and individuals who weren't part of the aforementioned problem, and then I'll joing the conversation again and hope I find something closer to the old SC.
That's big of you
Someday, maybe you can find a perfect blog home for your brilliant vastly superior intellectual mind, that bends only to the rationality of the issues, while never taking the low road or the personal cheap shots. Oh wait never mind, you just took a whole bunch of cheap shots. We can logically deduce therefore that you sir, are a hypocrite.
I'm only half stupid
Not that I intend to waste
Not that I intend to waste much time trying to get you to discuss anything in a rational and fact-based manner, but for what this advice is worth, A + B does not equal A (assuming B is not zero). You are apparently incapable of distinguishing between comments containing insults plus substantive, relevant, rational argumentation vs. comments containing just the former.
Thanks a bunch for playing a major role in the ruining of SC (although, for what it's worth, you were here with your high volume of consistently absurd and disruptive comments even when SC was good; it's just that there were enough good commenters that quality discussion/debate was possible despite your presence)
Who knew
I had that much power! Wow! I am a blog star after all.
That's quite a compliment, sir. Thanks!
I'm only half stupid
All it takes, if joined by a
All it takes, if joined by a few similar others and not resisted by the rest (most of whom instead just leave), is some very bad, thread-ruining qualities and the will to apply them in abundance. As I said, ruining SC wasn't something you could..er..accomplish on your own. You needed a few similar, high-comment-volume, moronic, bad-faith commenters like GR, Centinel and Corph, along with the flight of most good participants and misguided tolerance by the remaining participants. But yes, you did contribute substantially to the decline/demise of SC through persistent dedication of your time and effort to polluting every thread, so go ahead and feel proud of that if you wish.
Oh, and you definitely should start participating -- heavily -- at www.TheForvm.org
Play it again Sam
A little more sweetly and maybe you can galvanize some sympathy. After all the vicious attacks you have put out against various posters here I don't think your pointing fingers is going to gain much sympathy, but keep trying.
Why don't you make a list of who is and is not worthy to post in your mind, oh great one.
Then start your own blog and invite all your new friends to join you in a rational discussion of some relevant issue. That would at least be constructive.
Please do have the last word, or should I say insult.
I'm only half stupid
The least I could say for GoRight and Centinel
however much their comments annoyed me, is that they actually weren't holier-than-thou meta all the time. It was amusing to have a shrinking violet / church lady / scolding coward come down and taunt us from time to time, but it got old fast and I wasn't sorry you stopped posting for a while.
For all our hyperpartisan differences, GoRight and I put more substance into a single comment and response than I saw you come up with in your entire posting history. Centinel and I got a lot out of our little spars too. You, on the other hand, taught me nothing.
You probably still aren't aware of the irony of calling other posters moronic and lamenting the quality of discourse. You probably think being the only poster who managed to tick off everyone made you some poor misunderstood beacon of rationality, and not the condescending jerk epitomized by your very username.
Well, you've managed to cover
Well, you've managed to cover the bases of (1) a laughably invalid core premise, and (2) a core non sequitur. Well done.
The former is your premise that I didn't bring substance. That's obviously an extremely silly assertion, as any review of my diary and commenting history would show. It just so happens that a few months ago for a couple of weeks or so, my focus was on a last ditch effort to try to turn SC away from all the idiotic hyperpartisanship and bad-faith behavior that was dominating SC due to the high portion of such comments from you, GR, Centinel, and ML, so naturally many of my comments were of a meta discussion nature.
Your non sequitur comes despite something I already clearly explained -- back then and again just now on this thread: the distinction and critical difference between civility and good-faith engagement. Despite my explanations, you conflate the two into "quality of discourse", either deliberately to contrive some contradiction on my part that doesn't really exist, or out of sincere cluelessness and inability to make even such a basic, fundamental distinction, either of which is quite possible in your case.
As I've noted, my efforts to get SC to change course were imperfect, in particular because I didn't resist being very frank with the people ruining SC, including insulting them (which was very much a two-way street, of course). But that doesn't change the fact that a handful of individuals, combined with the complacency, enabling, or flight of others (largely in response, I presume) ruined SC. Put that on your mantle.
Glad you're honest enough to admit it, missliberties.
And I'm spent
I think we've fallen under critical mass. It's really a shame since I really enjoyed debating with all the people at SC.
My name is off the moderators list, and I'll be over at The Forvm mixing it up. I hope I'll see some of you there.
-- Nathan A. Stine
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
The Death Panels have been eliminated
This is the first time in history that an angry mob has rallied to get something stricken from a bill that didn't exist in the first place.
Now all those lazy sick people, on medicare and social security will have to pay lawyers for their own living will.
I'm only half stupid
I could hear the yawn way up here in Charleston ML....
...Still recycling the same old shtick huh?
Sad, however expected it might be.
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein
BIGGER is not better when it comes to government...
Yikes
...
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds...~ A. Einstein