Using other people's blogs as debate forums
I made the error of posting a response to a comment by Brooks, B Rational, on Diane Lim's blog, http://economistmom.com/2010/02/why-paygo-isnt-enough-but-why-well-take-it/#comments
, that had nothing to do with her original posting. This lead to an exchange of comments which which got nowhere. The final comment there is Brooks accusing me of copping out. I have learned (or should have learned by now) that Brooks has endless ability to keep adding comments with more questions that take up space without shedding any new light. Eventually I am compelled to give up, so I am always the one who cops out.
Two questions:
1) Is it appropriate to start a debate on someone else's blog that does not pertain to the original post?
2) Does Brooks "win" every debate by being the last one standing?
- Arne's blog
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Comments :
This is a place for debate
Brooks has now posted comments directed at me twice more at EconomistMom after I indicated that I was not going to post there again and suggested here as an appropriate site.
This post was not really right for continuing the Krugman debate, so I have now posted one for that.
I was the source of the original thread
B Rational started with Knocienz. I got so irritated that I called BR a droning pedant with self-esteem issues and didn't read his/her response. I still haven't.
I would say that no, you do not lose an argument just because the other guy (girl?) outposts you. In objective terms: you try to make your argument as best as possible, the other poster doesn't see it your way, and then normally you break off or change the subject (as you tried to do in the EconomistMom thread). You were making similar arguments to mine and Knocienz's (though the two of you were more polite).
Problem is, you were dealing with a self-righteous creep who can seem reasonable on the surface but quickly degenerates into snooty condescention and repetition of his/her simplistic reasoning. I learned that when you get to this point:
it's simply time to stop responding. It takes a singularly talented creep to annoy the left, the right and the middle of the political spectrum all at once.
One can't really win these debates
It's not like we are getting an independent judge.
The use of debating people that you know won't agree with you (IMNSHO) is to explore your own argument for assumptions that you believe to be self-evident and to explore the other argument for axioms.
Going for debate victory online just reminds me of this comic
Agreed re: a good purpose and
Agreed re: a good purpose and objective of discussion/debate with others with whom one disagrees -- whether one knows the other party won't agree or not, but even if not, putting one's own assumptions and reasoning to the test is useful, and one should of course be open to being convinced, and hopefully able to muster sufficient integrity and sufficiently overcome insecurity and policy/political agenda to engage in good faith (e.g., answer relevant questions as best one can rather than becoming evasive) and, if appropriate, concede some point or even concede that one's overall conclusion/assertion on some matter was invalid.
A couple of notes, though.
In some cases it isn't clear (at least not initially or even for a while) if the other party is absolutely dead set against conceding any error or flaw in his reasoning, partial/complete invalidity of his assumptions, reasoning and/or conclusion, etc. (due to hyperpartisanship, personal insecurity, vested interest, and/or other reason). Sometimes it's only clear in retrospect that the other party will do anything and everything to avoid any such concession or even to avoid engaging in good faith to the point at which he fears it may become obvious to others that he has erred. Also, even in such cases, the engagement may not be without any value, since others (observers reading the exchange) may be persuaded; as just one example that comes to mind, years back I tried to disabuse some at Redstate of their invalid, but cherished belief that "tax cuts always (or at least generally) increase revenues", and even though I probably had zero chance of convincing those with whom I engaged, "John Mark" as he's known on SC (Populist Conservative on Redstate) followed the exchanges and -- I think coming from a fairly neutral perspective and in any case I think weighing the merits of the arguments impartially -- concluded that my arguments and conclusion were valid and their arguments and conclusion weren't. Lastly, sometimes such engagements with a "bad faith" participant can serve the purpose of better understanding related dynamics, increasing awareness and understanding of this large and growing problem, and enouraging better attitudes and behavior so we can improve (or at least slow or halt the decline of) political discourse in America. By the way, I often recommend True Enough www.amazon.com/True-Enough-Learning-Post-Fact-Society/dp/0470050101
Wish I could get every American (and everyone in the world) to read it.
There can be "judges" who can be reasonably assumed to be sufficiently independent (as well as sufficiently capable) for assessing the validity (in absolute and relative terms) of conflicting arguments. Some of us (perhaps you included) know people who we believe have demonstrated sufficient neutrality for assessing which of two conflicting arguments is valid (or more valid), based on facts, logic, reasonableness of premises, etc., regardless of the relative relationships of each argument or related position expressed to their own policy preferences, without favoratism based on the individuals involved, etc.
None of the above is to suggest that it is always (or even generally) the best use of one's time to engage in long exchanges with someone who has made it pretty clear that he's all about saving face and/or preserving ideological talking points, etc., rather than engaging in good faith such that it is at least possible that he could end up express agreement with something with which he had strongly disagreed. I'm just saying it's not always clear early on that one has encountered such a person/situation, and even if one has, it's not always without potential benefit.
Debate styles
BR's style is just that; he's very fond of long paragraphs that eventually degrade into personal attacks when whomever he's dealing with just doesn't agree with his premise. In other words, he does that to everyone. Welcome to the club ;-)
And BR, since you're reading this, don't take that as a personal denunciation. We all have our own style. Yours is what it is. It's not very conducive to conversation, but you do explain and support your points, IMHO.
heh, actually I expected
heh, actually I expected GoRight, Centinel and MissLiberties to chime in by now. Maybe even they don't check here daily anymore.
Not for any current audience here (the few who remain and who concur with the views expressed above are beyond hope, and the couple who may not concur have heard this all before anyway), but for the benefit of anyone new who happens to ever stumble upon this thread, and for my own future reference and to refer others with whom I am discussing problems with political and philosophical discourse in America today...
For all it's benefits, one of the bad things about the internet, including the blogosphere, is that it enables people to get the false impression that it is highly likely that they are right about something, based on the confirmation they get from like-minded others. The political blogosphere, unfortunately, is populated largely by individuals who are not willing to engage in good faith if they sense that it may lead to (or has already led to) exposure of their arguments as invalid, perhaps even self-contradictory. Instead, upon having an argument of theirs challenged in a way that makes them feel insecure about heir ability to defend it (and being too hyperpartisan and/or just too personally insecure to concede some important point), they will engage in evasive tactics to save face, often to create the pretense of a response while only really offering straw man arguments, deliberate non sequiturs, irrelevancies, ad hominem arguments, etc.
And when they are called on their evasiveness and/or pressed for actual responses to the very pertinent questions/arguments that have been posed, they get embarrassed and angry, bear a grudge from that point forward, and constantly contend that there is some problem with the person who was just seeking a truly mutually-responsive discussion involving relevant questions and arguments. And when they do the latter they are eagerly joined by others bearing the same grudge and still nursing the same wounds of embarrassment.
The "other" inter-ideological politics blog, Forvm, is full of such folks, but they seem to prefer just talking past one another and engaging in faux discussion/debate without anyone ever really subjecting his/her arguments to actual scrutiny by engaging in good faith (ok, there are one or two exceptions there).
In the case of SwordsCrossed, a blog that was once an oasis in the blogosphere desert of hyperpartisan echo chambers AND a place where many regulars were willing and able to engage in intelligent, thoughtful, mutually-responsive, good-faith discussion/debate, a few very high comment volume individuals who didn't fit that category at all ruined the site and most of the good-faith regulars ceased to be regulars (perhaps commenting every couple of months or less), and now what remains is a blog on which there remains the few who ruined the site and a couple of others who didn't, and on which the comment volume seems to average around one comment per day (I haven't really done the math; just making a rough point), with the only commenter of any frequency being robo-spam.
Around a year or so ago I tried to get SwordsCrossed to change course so it wouldn't continue to decline in volume and quality, and that involved drawing attention to the problem (the behavior of those problem individuals), pointing it out both to those individuals and to other participants (those who remained, that is). That necessarily involved harsh criticism, which, while certainly not the only cause of the increased incivility on SC, was one significant factor and did trigger additional incivility (both from and toward me). Some months (and further deterioration of the site) later, I saw a post (a diary) by site owner Ender noting that "the site has gone downhill...it is quite clear that there is no future here if nothing changes" and asking for ideas, and I proposed a potential solution -- see swordscrossed.org/story/20090917/hey-guys#comment-113108
. But perhaps things by that point were seen (by any of the "good" former regulars who read my proposed approach) as too far gone for such an effort.
Thankfully, there are some participants in the blogosphere who are not like the hyperpartisan and/or personally insecure, ever-evasive, bad-faith folks I've described above, and I've been fortunate to encounter a handful, most of whom have significantly different positions, assumptions and related arguments on many policies than mine, but with whom I've always had excellent, good-faith, truly mutually-responsive discussions/debated both in the blogosphere and via email (and in a couple of cases, in person over pizza and beer), just as I have via phone, email, and in person with friends for many years.
But, to come full circle, it shouldn't surprise anyone that some folks remaining on this site will disagree with what I've said and will concur with the criticisms of me so far expressed. To put it in research terms, it's like a sampling problem, at least vis a vis a distribution of views that would be representative of a less skewed (essentially self-selected) population (which isn't to suggest that even a majority's conclusion is necessarily valid or even necessarily more likely to be valid).
Disagree that this is an aspect of the internet per se
I don't think the internet enabled this so much as the massive increase in media availablity. You see the same thing in television news where people get to choose to tune in to Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh rather than being forced to get their news from a Walter Cronkite. The only thing that the internet does is take that self selected echo chamber and turn it into a 2-way conversation instead of one way sermon.
People select their media the way they select their church: they like the folks who tell them that they are good and righteous and that everyone who disagrees with them will be consigned to hellfire.
And yes, I'll admit that I tend to watch and read those perspectives that are at least similar to my own (of course in my case it is because I'm so bloody clever; why should I waste time listening to those who are so clearly wrong!?!)
Step one: add logic and critical thinking as required curriculum from elementary school on.
Good points all. Step
Good points all.
I enthusiastic concur, and within/accompanying that subject, teaching that combats "innumeracy". Although I wouldn't want to underestimate the power of believing what one wants to believe, perhaps if there were less innumeracy there would be somewhat fewer folks on the right, for example, nonsensically insisiting that rising revenues in years following tax cuts "proves" causation when in reality it doesn't even establish a positive correlation*.
I also agree that media other than the Internet play a very large role in the trend -- I'd say in terms of numbers probably even a larger role than the Internet, considering the size of the audiences for ideologically hyperpartisan talk radio as well as the opinion TV shows on MSNBC and Fox News -- and certainly the proliferation and ideological fragmentation of those media that you mention has been the broader, sweeping force driving the trend over the past decade or two.
I do think, though, that there is something uniquely powerful in that echo chamber, interactive participation that you note; my sense is that active participation tends to become almost akin to a pledge of allegiance to one ideological "side" as well a public staking of one's positions on particular issues, all of which I think have a uniquely reinforcing effect, creating a stronger association with one's identity and sense of worth (supposed righteousness, supposed insightfulness) and making it harder to climb down from a position or modify one's general ideological orientation in light of new information. Additionally, there is the social, community aspect of those echo chamber blogs, which tends to reinforce a feeling of "our (good and wise) side" vs. "their (ignorant, stupid, and/or evil) side" as well as create a sort of peer pressure. Just as one small example of a manifestation of that dynamic, often when I dispute the facts or reasoning of some echo chamber regular who is presenting some argument supporting a policy that his "side" is seeking, his facts or reasoning is so obviously invalid that I have to think that some other participants know it, yet rarely does anyone point out his error, because it's all about who is on their side and who isn't (and by the way, they assume that anyone who challenges some of their "facts" or reasoning [without even expressing a policy preference] must be a hyperpartisan on the "other side", which is why the Redstate folks branded me a "lefty troll" and baselessly attributed to me very liberal policy preferences, and the regulars on echo chamber of the left call me a right winger and baselessly attributed to me very conservative/libertarian policy preferences).
There is nothing bad about (and some good from) skewing such consumption in that way to some degree, as long as it isn't skewed excessively. It may be optimal for one to spend somewhat more time with such sources in order to go deeper into some issue, policy, etc. rather than spending fully equal time with opposing voices who disagree with the more basic components. This may not be the best example, but if someone wants to learn more about (and perhaps discuss/debate) the optimal strategy for the war in Afghanistan, he may reasonably end up spending more time with sources that believe we should continue fighting that war than with those that advocate withdrawing ASAP (which isn't to say he should cut out the latter completely). Or if someone wants to learn just how bad the climate change problem is, the causes and potential solutions, he may spend more time with sources that believe climate change is occurring than with those that contend it is not, or is not affect by human activity, or is happening but will bring no significant net harm worth worrying about.
And to some extent we all do this in an obvious way, as is rational, most notably with regard to what we regard as extreme sources with what we consider to be whacky views -- I'm not going to spend much time on 9/11 truther blogs searching for a better understanding of the events and issues surrounding 9/11. Ditto with some neo-Nazi website/blog regarding societal problems in America. Etc.
* The fact is, GDP is more often growing than declining, and as a result revenues tend to grow over some period of several years whether tax rates are raised, lowered, or left alone, so increasing revenues in years following a tax cut doesn't even provide a hint that revenues are higher than they would have been if tax rates had not been cut. The problem with their "analysis" (observing rising revenue after the Kennedy, Reagan and Bush tax cuts -- even leaving aside the fact that Reagan subsequently raised taxes) is thus that they ignore what has happened to revenues in years before which there was NOT a tax cut. In other words, they fail correlation analysis 101. One analogy of mine: I could observe that every time I live for 5 years in New York City, I look older at the end of that period than I did at the beginning. Applying their "logic" I'd conclude that New York City very strongly, positively correlated with my looking older, yet for all they know the same thing happens to me (perhaps even to a greater degree) when I'm NOT living in New York City. [edit: Oh, and when I point them to my compilation of economists, including many of the most prominent conservative economists, stating disagreement with their "tax cuts always/generally increase revenues" mantra (swordscrossed.org/node/1671
), they respond with "That's just an appeal to authority. I can see for myself that revenues went up. Isn't it obvious??"]
I think you'd find very interesting a book I often recommend, www.amazon.com/True-Enough-Learning-Post-Fact-Society/dp/0470050101
. It's all about this stuff.
Nonresponsive
I think drifting off the point is OK here in a way that it is inappropriate at EconomistMom, but I notice that your comments have not responded to the questions I posed.
First, some relevant
First, some relevant background as to your familiarity with EconomistMom vs. mine. I've been participating very regularly on EconomistMom since Diane created it almost 2 years ago, and I don't think it would be going out on a limb to say that my participation is at least a net plus for the blog, and based on feedback throughout this time from Diane (the "Economist Mom") and elsewhere and from the other regular commenters, and based on the quality of discussions I've had with them. I don't recall ever seeing you before there, so while I'm not saying it was literally your fist time participating, your past participation, if any, must have been quite rare.
Although I wouldn't have needed to be told, EconomistMom is, in Diane's own words:
Diane's post and the Concord Coalition statement she includes were about the inadequacy of the new version of PAYGO, with all the huge exemptions that keep us still on an unsustainable fiscal course rather than mitigating the long-term fiscal imbalance to anywhere nearly the degree to which a purer PAYGO (without those huge exemptions), and therefore, while better than nothing, the this PAYGO does not get us anywhere close to solving the long-term fiscal imbalance problem and thus it's creation should not diminish the effort to push Congress toward an agreement that would represent fiscal responsibility or at least something much closer to it than we would otherwise be, and to push Congresss and the White House to make solving the long-term fiscal imbalance a high priority when making particular policy choices.
Krugman 2009/2010 (Bizarro Krugman 2003) is calling "hysterical" us folks expressing Diane's and Concord's and the EconomistMom regulars' great concern about the long-term fiscal outlook and who urge others to make it a high priority in policy choices. Krugman (via his column, blog, and TV appearances) has a large audience relative to that of other bloggers, and via the message per my excerpts upthread he is seeking to shape public opinion, to get the public to be less worried about the long-term fiscal imbalance and to make it not as high a priority in making policy choices as Diane and Concord and EconomistMom regulars think is extremely important to make it.
So Diane, Concord, and the EconomistMom regulars are saying that PAYGO still leaves us with the need to urge Congress to make the long-term fiscal imbalance a very high priority in policy choices, and Krugman is telling a lot of people essentially not to listen to those "hysterical" people because they are supposedly exaggerating how bad the outlook is in terms of the harm/risk.
Was it inappropriate for me to mention on that thread of that blog Krugman's latest column containing that message? Nope. For you to think it's clearly inappropriate -- so much so that you'd post a diary about it -- is pathetic.
Now then, you show up on that thread, get snarky with me even though I was not up to that point snarky with you at all, and you make and persist with an absurd argument that Krugman had not reversed himself as I had described (folks can read our exchange on that thread and continue at http://swordscrossed.org/diary/20100210/krugman-debate#comment-114200
). When I called you on this absurdity and you had nothing to say that wouldn't look even more pathetic (like someone who is either super stupid or who knows he's wrong but wants to maintain the pretense that he's actually got an argument that may have some or much validity), you suddenly decided that the whole conversation was clearly inappropriate for that forum and ran away.
still not responsive
Brooks,
A little research shows that my first comment was in Aug 2008 and yours was in May 2008. The fact that you post 5 times as often does not make you more familiar. I generally find one comment to be enough.
I did not say your post was inappropriate, I said the debate was. The question I asked had a yes or no answer and you did not answer it.
Posting a second comment on the blog probably makes me the one guilty of starting a debate. We have run across each other often enough that I should have known what would happen. (That includes at EconomistMom even if you do not remember). I still do not believe that is the correct forum for the type of debate that was happening.
I took the Krugman debate here, where it is appropriate. And you are still wrong about Krugman, too.
A little research shows that
Oh, pleeeeaase. Since she started the blog I have commented and engaged in discussion with other commenters and Diane on a few/several threads almost every week. On how many threads since the blog started in May 2008 have you commented. Probably only a couple of percent of the number I have, and I would have a good sense of that because I engage on so many threads, so regularly (and although I wouldn't belittle actually engaging with others beyond the "one comment" you mention that you prefer to leave, I am referring not to total comments but to total threads on which you or I commented). So spare whomever may read this the incredibly lame argumentation. How ridiculous.
Everything I said above applies to debating my assertion regarding Krugman. To repeat: Was it inappropriate on that thread of that blog (given all I said in my prior comment to explain why it wasn't inappropriate)? Nope. For you to think it's clearly inappropriate -- so much so that you'd post a diary about it -- is pathetic.
It's possible you sincerely thought that it would be inappropriate to continue on EconomistMom (and it's noteworthy that you rarely participate there so you could be forgiven for being wrong), but I'd put 70% probability (0.7) that you just wanted to run away because, your absurdity having been pointed out, you had no good options (well, for you; if someone points out an error of mine I'm fine with it and usually appreciative, not bent out of shape or irrationally defensive, and I certainly would never waste my time and anyone else's by persisting with some assertion that I knew was invalid, let alone absurd). Then I called you on running away, so you posted here, probably assuming (correctly) lower readership, and perhaps knowing that several of the handful of remaining regulars here would be likely to concur with anything bad that anyone said about me. I give all that (or roughly that) the 70% probability. 30% you stopped because you sincerely thought it was inappropriate to continue there.
We have had this type of
We have had this type of debate before. You refuse to answer my questions while complaining that I refuse to answer your questions even though I already have.
If I was unable to learn from my prior exchanges with you, I would have continued a while longer on Diane's blog, but there is actually meaningful data from which to gather an estimate of the value of the debate. I estmated a 90 percent probability that we would end up with something that other readers thought was a waste of their time.
LOL, nice try at a false
LOL, nice try at a false equivalence. I guess you assume some who may read this either won't bother to read through our exchanges and check the Krugman columns or is too stupid or biased to see that you are clearly full of it. I have answered your questions far more than adequately by any reasonable measure. I extracted the key assertions by Krugman and explained why they clearly represent what I'm saying they represent, and you seem to be asking me to copy and past all the relevant chunks in his columns/posts, even though, as I pointed out after looking again at the one you singled out in particular, I would have to copy and paste almost the entire column because it all represents what I'm saying it represents. And I assume that if I did that huge copy & paste job, you'd ask -- either incredibly stupidly or disingenuously -- "Well, what part of that represents what you're saying it represents?", and if I played along that far, I'd then have to repeat what I've already done, extracting the key parts. It's a silly, nonsensical, pointless circle you just want to travel around all because you are either incredibly thick or you want to persist with the pretense that my point isn't obviously valid and yours obviously invalid. Grow up or grow a brain, whichever is the deficiency.
Answer the question, then.
No, it does not. If it did you could provide a single sentence quote that shows that the subject of the blog is what you say it is rather than only what I say it is.
You may consider my request for a (simple) quote the question of mine that you have not answered.
I did that and more from the
I did that and more from the very beginning, both on EconomistMom and here on SC -- anyone interested can see that I did so in the quote box at swordscrossed.org/diary/20100210/krugman-debate#comment-114200
and can (and should) check Krugman's pieces themselves to verify that my representation of Krugman's statements is accurate (meaning that I'm not taking his words and phrases out of context to misrepresent the individual points he was making -- the points that relate to and constitute, individually and collectively, his assertions regarding of the level of harm/risk associated with the projected long-term fiscal imbalance.
Now you (the reader that is -- Arne either will probably never get it or already does get it but is pretending otherwise) can see why I said swordscrossed.org/diary/20100208/using-other-peoples-blogs-debate-forums#comment-116070
, why I gave you yet another opportunity to present an actual argument swordscrossed.org/diary/20100210/krugman-debate#comment-116071
and then, upon your making it clear that you either have no argument or are apparently hopelessly thick, why I finally said swordscrossed.org/diary/20100210/krugman-debate#comment-116075
.
Arne will now probably repeat that I'm supposedly not answering his question. Unless he is simply extremely thick, he's playing a game in a desperate effort to save face. He wants me to go around in circles and all over the place like some Abbot & Costello "Who's on First?" routine, and no matter what I present he'll keep asking questions the answers to which are obvious -- I presented from the beginning a distilled representation of all Krugman's relevant points, and after persisting with various crappola that I guess he thought someone would think might be actual, valid arguments, he now claims, in effect, that I will not have answered his question(s) unless I do a massive copy and paste job with every single word, sentence and paragraph related to every single relevant statement that Krugman made, and if I do so, he'll then look at all that stuff and ask me, in effect, to distill it down to the key points. It's the "Who's on First?" routine.
following the links does not get an answer
The only quote that you provided from 2009 is “to make the debt look scary”. Even the word "bad" does not appear anywhere in the 2009 piece.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/28/the-burden-of-debt/
Idiot. I guess the only way
Idiot. I guess the only way you might think someone made a particular type of assertion is if he used the exact words "I'm am making this type of assertion". Are you really too stupid to be embarrassed by now, persisting so much with this idiocy? I do wonder about people like you who I encounter in the blogosphere -- the primary question of "Is this person really this stupid or is does this person realize he's clearly wrong but can't bear to admit it or even drop it but instead feels compelled to persist endlessly to hopefully give some reader the impression that there's some chance he has some valid argument?" I've been actively observing and exploring such behavior in the blogosphere for a couple of years now, but since no one ever admits that they were doing the latter, the best I can do is make educated guesses as to which is the case. Odd breed you guys are. Hey, maybe at this point you should take a page out of SC regular GoRight's playbook and claim that you were just pretending to be thick all along just to string me along pointlessly for some sort of kicks.
First, some relevant
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First, some relevant
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First, some relevant
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First, some relevant
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First, some relevant
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First, some relevant
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First, some relevant
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First, some relevant
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Last one standing
In Brooks latest comment on this blog he resorts to name-calling. There is nothing there to respond to, so it seems to be evidence of trying to win debates by being the last one standing.
Wrong. I did respond to
Wrong. I did respond to your...er...argument. I pointed out that you seem to be unable to see that someone is making an assertion about X in each case unless in each case he mouths the words "I am asserting that X is Y". What else can I say when presented with such an apparent argument, for lack of a better word.
Your "last man standing" think is a transparently pathetic attempt to place a label on me that you should be wearing. Your game is to persist with reply after reply containing nothing but nonsense masquerading as something that someone (someone who wasn't really following the exchange closely and/or is not too bright and/or, in the case of the handful of grude-holders remaining here, is just looking for anything they can latch onto to take sides against me) might think just might be at least partially valid. So no matter how many times I point out and explain your errors and provide corrections, you keep replying with nonsense, some the same, some new twists but equally nonsensical. That way you (1) possibly create some impression among someone (see above) that it may be unclear which of us is right and/or (2) can fall back on your charge that I'm just trying to "win just by being the last man standing" if I continue to point out your errors and correct you.
You can indeed fool some of the people some of the time, so perhaps your strategy and tactics are effective with some people, but not with anyone with even half a brain who spends even a moment or two to follow our exchange.
But I guess you're still struggling to save some bit of face.