Tuesday Open Thread
Currently on CNN "President Bush today called Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to reaffirm his support for him, according to White House spokesman Tony Snow." Also US approved visas for Iranian President Ahmadinejad so he can address UN. Other than that not much else going on.
What's going on with you? This is an Open thread.
Submitted by Ender on Tue, 2007-03-20 08:32
Tags:

Comments :
Check out this anti-Hillary attack ad
It is a ripoff
of the Apple 1984 ad.
The Obama camapign says they had nothing to do with it.
The story hails the ad as creative. Doesn't seem all that creative to me to insert Hillary's picture in someone else's concept.
But it's interesting. And the message is supposed to be -- Hillary=Old, Barack=New.
qui tacet consentire
despite the fact
that Barak spouts the same old cliches about our country that we've heard from time immemorial. Noooooo, he is DIFFERENT! Just because we said so.
They are both old news.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Which Republican, then, is "new" news?
What Republican isn't spouting cliches?
I'll give you an "action" Democrat that isn't all platitudes-- Bill Richardson.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
I think
Giuliani would be someone who actually does what he says and would be a breath of fresh air. And I am kinda intrigued by the possibility of Thompson who is a big unknown.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Rudy: Breath of fresh air, or Bush groupie?
So it seems like Rudy Giuliani doesn't think that George Bush can be improved upon very much! How is he going to be a breath of fresh air if he thinks that the currenty guy is doing a heckuva job?
I'd like to hear him affirm this glowing praise of Bush now-- or maybe admit that Bush wasn't as great as he claimed he was...
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
The funniest part
is that they've updated sledgehammer girl with an iPod. Because nothing says "Barack Obama" like a white girl with a sledgehammer... and an iPod.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Are you going to protest down at the UN when
Iranian President Ahmadinejad arrives to speak?
nah
I've never protested and I am not about to start now (unless Dems completely take over and really do something crazy) - I actually work for a living and don't have the time to go protest. Besides, I don't care enough to protest him.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Protesting against Dinnerjacket
is certainly a good idea. I consider the USA in a de facto war with Iran, but I suppose we have to live up to our responsibilities as host country of the UN. As I recall, since we no longer have diplomatic relations with Iran, they have no embassy staff in Washington, DC. Iran does have staff at the UN, and I remember reading that some of them were thrown out of the country for taking pictures in the subway and of office buildings in NYC. It would not surprise me if Iran used their diplomatic pouches to smuggle biological weapons into the country. Surveillance and security on Almadinnijad must be kept to the maximum.
name the enemy, win the war
When did this de facto war start?
Careful, as if it was back when they siezed the embassy, then Iran-Contra was de facto treason. If Iran-Contra, what do you think started a war when invading our embassy (US Soil De Jure) wasn't enough?
Bad scientist, no biscuit!
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article2374462.ece
Okay I understand that Malaria is a big problems through much of Africa, but this is a very bad idea. We have absolutely no way of predicting how this modified species will behave outside of the lab in realworld environmental conditions. We have no way of predicting the (key word) unforseen consequences of our releasing a new species with a modified genetic code into the world's ecosystem.
I totally support this research but not the application, just as I totally support research into nuclear physics but neither nuclear weapons nor any current technology of nuclear reactor.
Ecosystems are too chaotic for us to have any strong understanding of how introducing a new element will change them. Oh and, uh, they're kind of important too.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
If you are bored
Here
is a long and interesting article, taking a more personal perspective of recent events in Iraq.
I'm only half stupid
Like we needed more proof...
Shocked. Shocked, I say.
How convenient for Mr. Cooney that his sole loyalty was to a man whose sole loyalty was right back to Mr. Cooney's industry. This guy used to be a lobbyist paid to lie about climate science, then he was hired by Bush to head up the WH councel on environmental quality. He edits a whole bunch of scientific findings, gets canned when the uproar starts, and then gets hired by...Exxon. Wow. Who would have thunk it?
damn those democrats and their constant scandal mongering...Oh wait....
How utterly perfect. Not only do you have a 23 year old nonscientist political appointee editing the work of a preeminent scientist but the guy's major qualification is a high school diploma.
Gee, I wonder why the scientific community as a whole finds the bush administration to be hostile toward them?
Article here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/19/washington/20climatecnd.html?hp
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I had that hearing on late lat night...
Cooney was squirming in his seat the whole time... the man is utterly incapable of a straight answer. He made 100+ changes to the scientists' report, nearly every one of them to add doubt whereas the scientists had expressed certainty-- but he wasn't "editing" the report, he was merely "making suggestions."
They are trying to cloud the issue in the court of public opinion. They are Johnny Cochran trying every trick in the book to get O.J. off the hook. They just want to confuse people enough so that people won't understand that there is a huge scientific consensus that CO2-based global warming is a scientific certainty.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Poor George
He is having a ghastly day/week (month/year).
I hope and prey that not only are these abuses unearthed, but that they are remedied.
The Senate is addressing the underlying flaw in the patriot act right now, that allowed Gonzo Gonzales to play partisan games at Justice.
From the doc dump, it almost seems as if the staff was handling all affairs, (hope they were well paid for all this hard work) revealing a highly partisan agenda.
And something about Karl's Shop!!!
The incident is being fondly refered to as The Pearl Harbor Day Massacre
I'm only half stupid
hahaha
y'all should enjoy this
. It's a "fair and balanced" clip from FOX about how the extreme left is destroying not only the country in general, but Wall Street in particular. It'd be cute if it were a Saturday Night Live skit.
I love how the hostess takes the one sensible voice and says, "That's a good point, but you're wrong. Let's listen to other people instead."
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
that's why I like fox news
they don't pretend to care for the liberal point of view :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
So can we agree it is not fair and balanced?
That it is not journalism.
And that it is not news.
It is an electric box to get out right wing talking points, and nothing more.
I'm only half stupid
it might not be balanced
but with the rest of the cable and network news skewed left, it should not be balanced. And I am glad it is out there to set people right.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
only the right watches it
and old people.
Even the old people are getting sick of it. It's too depressing.
If the MSM were as liberal as you suggest we would never have gone to war with Iraq. I blame the media as much if not more than the democrats for taking us to war. There was plenty of info out there that contradicted all the lies that we were being told. Richard Clark got Joe Wilsoned along with anyone else who came along who dared question the administrations view.
To pretend like Tim Russert is liberal, when Karl Rove and Scooter Libby were calling him personally and telling him who to put on the show.
He might have gotten cut of from his inside the White House connections though..... or at least I hope. Last Sunday, there was actually a real liberal on the show.
I'm only half stupid
well that's false
it's not only the right that watches it because plenty of people in the middle and even dems watch it. I also showed you a poll where 67% of all people (not just the right) said MSM was liberal biased, yet you keep disregarding it.
How would you know that the old people are getting sick of Fox News? I swear, sometimes you just put your wishes and desires out as facts. You are kinda like a miniature DNC propaganda machine on your own :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
SOTU Poll
I watched Bush give the SOTU on Fox... they did a poll at the end regarding whether the president did a good job in the speech, and it was like 96% good, 4% not good. Leaving aside whether you think that the speech was good yourself, do you really think that those were liberal Democrats giving the President high marks for his speech? That told me all I needed to know about Fox's audience. It's nearly pure right-wing.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
I don't remember seeing that
but if that's what happened you have a point. I see some of their polls of their viewers and they are not usually that lopsided.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
remember Colbert
His schtick is a complete parody of Bill O'Reilly. Why does it work? Because it is so AbsurD.
Liberals are not always wrong about everything.
And neither are conservatives, if they are not operating as rubber stamps for BushThink. Fox News is a rubber stamp for Republicans. Which they have a right to be. But just don't PRETEND to be a news outlet when you aren't. That's all we ask.
I'm only half stupid
Ok wasn't quite as bad as I remembered it
So, maybe 10% Democratic viewership? I don't know many Democrats who have enough use for George Bush these days to bother to give him a positive vote in a poll-- on anything.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
hahaha that's funny!
I like the part where they show photos of corrupt Republicans and the scroll at the bottom reads Mark Foley (D) Florida....... Good Lord. Like only Democrats are corrupt. Really it is so blantant and absurd it is humorous.
I'm only half stupid
Good!
There is one show I watch on Fox, just briefly, and that is the Sunday show with Chris Wallace. He is the most fair.
Dems watch it to see what the enemy is up to.
If reporting facts has a liberal bias so be it. There will always be a tension there which I believe is healthy.
When I worked at my little restaurant, I talked to many many people (I talk too much) and the older folks told me, they quit watching Fox News....... especially Bill O'Leilly. They found it too depressing and frightening. No kidding. And isn't Bill's demographic viewer majority like 64 to 79? Old people. People that USED to trust the media and don't realize it has changed.
Yes that is MY goal in life. To counteract right wing propaganda!
I think the media is HUGELY important and Freedom of the Press is a vital part of a Functioning Democracy. It is my total pet peeve. Misinformation. Unfortunately the Rovemeister is a brilliant media strategist.
I don't know why the DNC doesn't hire me for all my brilliant insights!!! So thanks for the compliment. Ha!
I'm only half stupid
But there's the sticking point:
I argue that FOX is a conservative network because this point of view is held consistently across its programs.
Can you point either to 1) a similar report from another network, and 2) any level of consistency in that point of view across the network?
THIS is why the meme about FOX being just the Right's equivalent of the other networks doesn't hold much water, in my opinion. The other networks are bad infotainment, but they're hardly a mouthpiece for the left.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Or how many times
can you say.....
ultra liberal left, far left, liberal, the extreme elements of the democratic party, big left turn, that far left, liberal, ultra left liberals, someone this liberal, ultra liberal, the ultra liberal, "the liberal liberal's", to the left.
in two minutes! Sheesh! What do you think the "substance" of that clip was anyway?
I'm only half stupid
LOL
They had to get the full screen of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed up there too, to show how much back hair he has...
I like how they implied that Democrats want to free him-- but wait? is there any Democrat on the record that wants to free this guy?...
Also, no mention that Mohammed was captured in Pakistan, not Iraq.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Here's one more in the fired US Attorney thread.
From Max Blumenthal writing in The Nation:The Porn Plot Against Prosecutors
. Apparently felatio is involved in this ongoing cesspool.
For myself, I had no idea that US resources are going to groups trying to prosecute porn sold to consenting adults.
WTF?!? Who supports those priorities anyhow? This in the land of liberty and freedom, or this in the land of bushco's Soviet era gulag from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Sorry, but his Administrations priorities are not mine.
the theme is
the moral unraveling and depravity of American society as represented by the dirty f*cking hippies, and the immoral secular left. They are destroying our country. If only they would join a mega-church, accept JC, in their hearts and vote Republican all this depravity would end and we could revive the great strength this nation was founded on, the principles of God and country. Sound silly. But there is a reason behind this madness.
It was no coincidence that only Bush voting JCRepublicans who were opposed to Roe were selected to go to Iraq and given special consideration for contracts in Iraq...... Iraq being a part of the Holy Land and all.
I'm only half stupid
even worse:
the unraveling of our social fabric can be traced back to Girls Gone Wild, according to the Bush appointee in Utah. Could be true, given that Utah's consumption of porn
is oh-so-much higher than they'd like you to believe.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Kyl, Frist & Goodlatte already killed online poker
...or have tried to... they've really just killed the most reputable money transfer services while the fringe outfits still operate.
Just another example of poorly thought out prosecution of victimless activites conducted by consenting adults. Thanks, Republicans.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Yessir
yep going back to at least may of 2005:
http://tlaloc.gnn.tv/blogs/5930/Administration_needed_another_fight_it_c...
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
What a great article,
and I love that Blumenthal had zero compunction about listing out the names of the various porn DVDs they failed to prosecute. It may be the only time the word "bukkake" has graced the pages of The Nation.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Here's a bone for Ender...
From Salon, and not Glenn Greenwald, although he is great today.
It's Can American Jews Unplug the Israel Lobby (AIPAC)?
.
Here's the money line:We find ourselves in a very strange situation. America's Mideast policies are in thrall to a powerful Washington lobby that is only able to hold power because it has not been challenged by the people it presumes to speak for. But if enough American Jews were to stand up and say "not in my name," they could have a decisive impact on America's disastrous Mideast policies.
Kudos to Congressman Henry Waxman for holding
hearings on Global Warming yesterday. Chris Mooney at HuffPo covered this so we don't have to
....we get to use the Cliff Notes version. Well, what did he say?
"To fully grasp how the Bush government has distorted climate science--which it has largely done by selectively emphasizing scientific uncertainties while downplaying mainstream scientific conclusions"..."One of the recurring charges against the Bush administration is that it has sometimes, for political reasons, blocked government-employed climate scientists from doing media interviews about their work. And in light of new evidence that emerged yesterday, there's simply no question in my mind that public affairs staff at NASA actively sought to prevent the agency's most famous climate scientist, James Hansen, from participating in a prominent media interview with National Public Radio. "..."add one more drop in the overflowing bucket of evidence suggesting that the Bush administration was quite consciously using PR tactics to control the "message" on global warming--rather than allowing taxpayer funded scientists, like Hansen, full access to the media."
OK, who'se going to be the first one to debunk global warming today?
This one from the American Freedom Agenda
as discussed by former Congressman Bob Barr, David Keene Richard Viguerie & Bruce Fein
:
"they will pitch a legislative package "to restore congressional oversight and habeas corpus, end torture and extraordinary rendition, narrow the President's authority to designate 'enemy combatants,' prevent unconstitutional wiretaps, email and mail openings, protect journalists from prosecution under the Espionage Act, and more."
In a statement, the four said the president "has encroached on the power of Congress to make laws, and on the power of the courts to interpret the law - a scenario that the Founding Fathers foresaw and warned against." As a result, they said, "We are issuing this call to Americans of all political and philosophical persuasions to join us in urging Congress to enact The American Freedom Agenda."
"The AFA would roll back the alarming recent concentration of power in the White House and its end runs around due process... The AFA seeks to restore America's tradition of respect for the rule of law and the benefits of dispersed as opposed to concentrated power, to redeem the principle that no man is above the law, and to prevent injustices that undermine national security."
"We are conservative scholars, activists and writers. We do not favor a crippled executive or enfeebled government. In a time of danger, checks and balances make for stronger government because the people will more readily accept a muscular authority if barriers against abuses are strong. If at some future time Congress, in turn, aggrandizes power and invades the executive or judicial domains, we will be equally alert to sound the alarm. But today, the clear and present danger to conservative philosophy is the White House."
OUCH!!! Ender, GoRight, help us here.....We're not used to prominent conservatives using our talking points. Say something to make it go away!!!!!
Wow!
I agree with all those things! I must be a conservative! My mom is going to be so proud.
A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings
I don't agree
with any of their agenda. I guess that makes me a liberal :) Ouch! Or maybe these dudes are off their rockers.
I would not call them "prominent conservatives", sorry. Bob Barr has libertarianized and liberalized substantially so I don't even listen to him anymore.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
hehe n/t
A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings
Limbaugh Irrelevant
Wow, Brendan, I think I'm starting to agree with you about Schwarzenegger.
I always thought Limbaugh was irrelevant, but it is good to know that right-wing politicians do too now. My favorite line of the article is the last one. How true.
I'm going to get some popcorn and a soda to watch the GOP turn to goop. It's fun to watch it disintegrate before our eyes.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
If you truly believe that he is irrelevant ...
why do you bother to spend time reading about him and poking fun at him? Doesn't that sort of imply your own irrelevancy (since you obviously have nothing better to do)?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4And you NEVER pay attention to Nancy Pelosi
Or don't you have better things to do?
Besides arguing that climate change is a conspiracy, your other favorite pastime seems to be mocking dems.
So ask yourself why does Arnold spend time poking fun at Rush? Maybe because someone asked him a question.
Rush is a has been, who sadly is trying to defend and incompetent administration that has no real constraints of honest conservatism left.
It's a big job, but I am sure Rush is up to it. And I am sure you are as well.
I'm only half stupid
A few points for the record...
I don't believe that I ever claimed that the Speakerette was irrelevant, did I? Clearly she is being 3rd in line for the Presidency. Hence, my time poking fun at her is not wasted.
I don't believe that I have ever called climate change a "conspiracy".
This is true. But my point was, and still remains, if Rush is irrelevant why is Specter wasting his time digging this stuff up or posting it at all?
Well, now the same question applies to you as well. If Rush is nothing more than a has been why are you spending so much time worrying about what he does or says? Ignore him and move on if you truly believe this. Your time will be better spent.
True. So true.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Observation
Arguing by insult and rude innuendo does not improve your standing.
We are free to make observations here.
You are free to make obnoxious comparions.
And you do it well.
You are certainly capable of defending Rush without insulting Specter, aren't you?
I'm only half stupid
Is you observation ...
based on the post to which it was attached, or more general in nature?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Are you saying
that you can't defend Rush without being rude?
Or is that question too hard for you to answer.
I'm only half stupid
Sorry, see below. n/t
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Insults?
I suppose you can both take it as an insult if you want. I didn't mean it as an insult. I am just asking a simple question:
If you truly feel that Rush is irrelevant, why are you spending time reading about him and posting articles about him?
I am seeking clarification on your purpose. In other words, I simply want to understand why you would choose to spend your time focusing on things that you claim are irrelevant.
This is a legitimate question, is it not?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4We are allowed
to say that it IS news that
Arnold on the today show said this:
"And then came California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who frankly told "The Today Show" Tuesday that "Limbaugh is irrelevant."
and this:
"I'm not his servant," Schwarzenegger said. "I am the people's servant of California."
Arnold it would seem is no longer interested in towing the Republican party line as passed down by Rush. Hopefully this is an indication that moderate Republicans will start thinking for themselves instead of swallowing the talking points handed down to them from on high. IN this sense I hope and prey that Arnold is correct. Rush is becoming irrelevant.
You don't need to act ever so surprised that democrats would be glad to hear this news and would in fact say it out loud, do you. Especially seeing as how some conservatives seem to worship every word that rolls off his tongue as if it were straight from the bible of conservative group think.
I'm only half stupid
Arnold has asked to be on Rush radio
in related news. The terminator has asked to be on today's Rush Limbaugh show.
Don't miss it!
I'm only half stupid
computer weirdness
erasing double post
I'm only half stupid
You are allowed
to spend your time doing whatever you want. That is not the point.
What do you hope to accomplish by reading articles about Rush, or making comments about Rush, when you are also claiming that he is irrelevant?
Logically, this doesn't make sense to me so I want to better understand why you would choose to do this.
Curiously, statements such as:
tend to contradict the claim that Rush is, in fact, irrelevant (at least not yet). Correct?
No, I am not surprised that the Democrats would be happy to hear such news. But again, if Rush is, in fact, (already) irrelevant why would the Democrats even care?
I think the claims of Rush's irrelevancy are premature.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Like a dog
chasing his own tail. It begins where it ends.
But at least you finally added something new when you say clearly.
It would have been so much easier if you would have just asserted that as a declarative statement from the beginning.
If Rush had as much impact as you claim, then it wasn't evident in the results of the last election. Thus it does make sense to say that he is becoming irrelevent.
It is not nearly as complicated as you make it out to be.
I'm only half stupid
I think you miss the point of this exercise.
I could simply come out and say you aren't being logical here, but then your right-speak filter would cause that statement to simply be ignored.
By asking you for clarification I get to highlight either (a) that you are being illogical, or (b) that you don't really mean what you say. Doing so should NOT be considered insulting, BTW, because I am merely reflecting the things that you are saying back at you and making you actually think about what they mean and imply (by circumventing the right-speak filter).
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Thank You
for pointing out
a) you assume I have a right speak filter
b) that this was in fact an excercise in logic that must not be deviated from
c) showing us the prowess of your ability to use (a), (b), and (c)
I do in fact know exactly what I meant.
Specter seemed to have no trouble understanding what I meant or what he meant.
Logically speaking saying Rush is irrelevant is an admission of his relevance is it not.
Why belabor the point that is so clearly obvious just in the statement itself.
That on it's face seems illogical to me.
I'm only half stupid
Excuse me then. I beg your gracious pardon ...
for following the convention that words actually have meanings and for assuming that the liberals actually made use of said convention.
My bad.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Pardon granted
by half.
I'm only half stupid
Thank you fair maiden.
May your generosity be repaid 10 fold. I am not worthy to attach my meager and tainted posts to yours.
:-)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4I just wonder
if you drive your wife as crazy as I drive me husband!
And don't tell me that doesn't make sense. :-)
I'm only half stupid
Thanks :)
and I agree wholeheartedly with your points which I will try to elaborate below.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Good point
but I guess it depends on what we mean by irrelevant (to be Clintonesque--your favorite, I know).
His arguments to me are irrelevant on a personal level. I do not agree with him on much and he seems to spout a lot of hot air. Hopefully, that will satisfy why I think he is irrelevant. Are Chavez and Castro irrelevant to you? Probably, though they are part of the current political debate in general. Do you spend much time thinking about their arguments? Probably not. Why? Because they are irrelevant to you.
Does that mean he (Rush) is irrelevant on the political scene. No, only for me personally.
I also believe his power is waning on the conservative side due to many thing the article discusses: competition from other conservative entertainers/pundits, his recent problems taking away his credibility, a lack of positive things to say about Republicans--remember the 'liberated from holding water for the administration
' comment after the elections? And now Arnold. His influence among those who did consider him relevant is on the wane.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Reasonable attempt at a save.
OK, fair enough. But still, you are spending personal time reading and posting about him, correct? You don't consider that an impact on you personally?
Are Chavez and Castro irrelevant to me? I wouldn't actually use the term irrelevant. To the extent that they are world recognized figures and that I sometimes have to spend time addressing the things that they might have said or done I still consider them relevant. If I felt that their words or their actions carried no political or world consequences then I would not bother. At that point they would be irrelevant to me.
Gee, I guess you should feel proud at this point. The fact that I am taking time to respond to your post means that I think you are relevant too! Yippee! And don't discount the importance of my doing so, remember, I am officially worth 2 (two) liberal posters
. :-)
OK, this is what I was aiming for. Thanks.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4