Tuesday Open Thread
Bush, Democrats escalate Iraq war debate ... Seems like it's a somewhat slow news day today. If you have anything interesting please fill us in. I am still busy at work - end of fiscal year here.
This is an Open Thread.
Submitted by Ender on Tue, 2007-04-03 08:37
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interesting diary on dkos
about a Conscientious Objector and his discharge
. I involved in the comments a bit because the diary had nothing to do with the Iraq war and was praising the guy for finding the stated mission of the Marines immoral.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Why are Republicans complaining of a 18 mo deadline
18 months is long enough for a surge to work and flush out the enemies and train Iraqis.
We are spending $4 Billion a week. Why do Republicans want to stay longer?
Why?
Why are they resisting a 18 month deadline--when this will help other neighboring countries and Iraq to plan for us leaving?
Isnt it time to spend that hundred billion dollars here in USA and start taking care of USA and stop borrowing from China and Saudi to finance this war?
Why? I dont understand.
Besides...
18 months is also long enough to plan for redeployment and changing combat mission to training and support mission.
That is 18 months of combat before it changes to pure training and support mission.
So please explain why dont you want the troops to go home after 18 months?
I am opposed to deadlines
in general - because all you are doing is telling the enemy when you are giving up. Until you are truly ready to give up, there is no justifiable reason to set a deadline. Obviously republicans are not ready to give up. Democrats are.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
What enemy?
You have 18 months to get rid of that "enemy". Remember this is a civil war between Sunni and Shiites-- the enemy is undefined.
If you dont get this people to stop fighing in 18 months--they are a hopeless case--just get out and let them destroy their country.
We have a technological advantage.
If in case the 'enemy' wins--which I am not sure what that means then we can bomb the new govt to oblivion.
Besides--after 18 months the plan would be training and support not combat operations.
US will still be there but with a different mission.
we might be out
in 12 months but regardless I am not interested in telling our enemies (be that al qaeda or insurgents) when we are leaving. Never.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
How will neighbors and Iraqis prepare
If we dont tell them deadlines--how will neighbors and Iraqi prepare for our withdrawal.
They should have a timeline so they can make timelines of their own. Timelines needed so that neighbors can plan w/ helping out with troops or training. Timelines needed to hasten to broker peace talks among warring factions. If there is a timeline then Iraq can get serious to put into place constitutional laws to federate their country so that Sunni, Shiites and Kurds can have some autonomy.
We cannot leave abruptly at any time without giving timelines so today is the best time to do it.
What enemies--Our enemies are in Pakistan--the taliban and we have a halfhearted job getting rid of them.
The issue here is there is a civil war between Shiites and Sunnis. The Islamist--Sadr are not enemies as they are part of the government and even providing the peace that the MSNBC article you linked in Sadr City.
Ender...
that only makes sense if the enemy can't see with their own eyes that our deployment is unsustainable. They certainly can.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
it may be so
but I wouldn't give them the satisfaction anyways.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Did you ever stop to think
that imposing a deadline wouldn't be necessary if Bush had either:
A. Prosecuted the war in a competent fashion, or
B. Started a phased withdrawal/redeployment on his own.
Even today Bush was talking about winning the war. He's completely delusional.
qui tacet consentire
hmmm
I can agree with A. but since that hasn't happen I am still waiting for improvement. Most of our troops are not there yet, so let's wait and see. I am not going to pronounce a verdict on the latest effort because it is too early.
While that is ongoing, I have no interest in a deadline. And don't liberals understand how stupid "redeployment" term is to be used in this context?
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
If you agree with A
-- that Bush has mismanaged the war, then why do you still support him? Why do you support a commander whose poor judgment has resulted in unnecessary death and destruction? Why would you expect that, having screwed things up previously, this time he'll get it right?
Redeployment, BTW, means moving from one area to another. In Iraq it means moving our forces out of, for instance, Baghdad and Anbar Province to Kuwait or Kurdistan or southern Iraq, letting the Iraqi Army worry about taming their own damn capital and letting the Sunni sheiks in Anbar deal with the foreign fighters. Why the hell are we trying to resolve all that?
qui tacet consentire
I know
what redeployment means. But generally what the Dems mean is simple withdrawal and abandonment of the situation. So it's just a complicated term that is trying to mask the desire to withdraw our troops from Iraq.
Just because Bush has mismanaged the war, does not mean he meant to do it or if anyone else on the Dem side would do better. Also he wants to fix it so why wouldn't I want to support that?
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Bush's incompetence stares Ender in face; Ender averts eyes
Since you asked:
Bush wants to fix your plumbing, get out your raincoat.
Bush wants to fix your roof, make sure you have a supply of buckets on hand, then get out your raincoat.
Sure-- Bush WANTS to fix a lot of things, first and foremost his own reputation. But he's a proven incompetent, and incompetent people don't fix things... they TRY to fix things, and end up making them worse. All that brush Bush clears? That's probably thousands of dollars of landscaping plants that have died because Bush didn't maintain them properly ;-)
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Obviously Republicans are changing their minds
There are many Republicans who have not come out in the open yet, that feel the same way as Chuck Hagel.
We are seeing many defections. When "medal of freedom" winner George Tenet comes out with his expose on how we got into this war.
And as the constitutional crises we face comes to light with oversight hearings, I would hazard a guess there will be more and more republicans joining the democrats, to say that there is not a military solution to this problem.
I'm only half stupid
how do you know
if you don't see them out in the open yet? Sorry but your feelings are not good enough evidence.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Andrea Mitchell
if she is to be trusted. You know Alan Greenspans wife. She has said as much.
Also stating that the elite in world economic community are extremely disappointed with Bush's rhetoric. It's affecting business.
She mentioned quite emphatically the other day.....!
I know you don't read the bad news, but there have been several high level defecters from the Bush Camp. James Baker, Matt Dowd, Victor Goldman. These people are NOT liberals. The last two were hard core staunch supporters that helped get re-elected.
The GOP will be a different party when Bush gets out of office. He has destroyed it. Which is why Tom Tancredo is running. Not to win. But to send a message.
I'm only half stupid
Listening to snippets of Bush yapping on TV
Why does he hide behind Gen. Petraeus? He continues to insist that Congress' overwhelmingly vote to approve Petraeus in his new position is a stamp of approval for his Iraq policy.
How many more days until this Reign of Error comes to an end?
qui tacet consentire
Most frightening.
Is that Bush looks fine. No problem.
This is all a game to him.
Thankfully his own loyalists jumping ship!
I'm only half stupid
so what you are saying
is that you like how Bush looks?
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I am saying
He is oblivious to the suffering he has caused, including to his own father.
It doesn't bother him.
IN other words he looks fine.
I'm only half stupid
Reign of Error!
Great one.
I also like the "Dan Quayle in cowboy boots" description from the upcoming Vic book.
If he says anything original, would you post it here? I'm assuming it's just a rehash of his usual protestations.
2 posts from TPM:
During this mornings Rose Garden Press Conference
: "dubya just refused to answer the question of what role Bush 'loyalty' should play in hiring and firing US Attorneys. He didn't allow follow up. No answer."
and
Why any Democrat is a fool who doesn't start every comment on this story with, "The president is vetoing the bill to set a timeline to get out of Iraq." They have to say it over and over and over. It's accurate. It cuts politically. And to overcome the president's ability to spread lies about this it has to be said over and over and over.
Emphasize it is a 18 or 12 mo timeline
Long enough to do what needs to be done.
And it rests on Pres Bush if he vetoes the bill.
Front paging today's CNN:
Iraq official: U.S. pressed to release detained Iranians
. Yup, that's our Iraqi allies wanting to release the Iranians.
If it were up to me I'd say fine, let 'em go.
Now if it were up to Ender.....
yeah
I'd be Jack Bauering them right now! :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Well, You're better than some. Take a look at our
Brothers in Blog at RedState
:
Bee seems to think "Instead of locking them up in prison, we should simply shoot captured Iranian agents in the head, and dump their bodies at the border."
Yea, that's the ticket! Who needs this diplomacy stuff anyhow?
Also busy at work
Sorry, I'll get the debate challenge posted later this week. Probably good to put it off for a bit anyway since Easter is coming up and some people (like me!) may be out of town or otherwise occupied.
Go Twins!
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Same
I had an avalanche of obligations at work hit me in the last few weeks. They are changing the computer system at work, so we have to take all of these redundant intro. level classes designed for people who don't know where the power button is. Plus there's always more grading to do.
I have kind of a breather today from work/grading, but that means I have lots of stuff around the house to take care of (doctor's appointment, vet appointment, grocery shopping, haircut).
Hope everyone is doing well. :)
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Server is slow today. (n/t)
General McCaffrey's report on Iraq
An interesting read although I find his "we can still win" statements after he laboriously details every way Iraq is screwed to be a bit too pollyanna-ish. Still well worth reading if only to find out all the ways it is worse than it appears on the news:
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/after-action-report-general-barry-r-...
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
some funny stuff
here: I Am Huff Po
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I actually agree
that the HuffPo article was a pretty ham-fisted response to Malkin's manifesto. Until the very last section, which is really good:
I love irony.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
ABC News running with unattributed stories
trying to get the US to go to war with Iran now
.
While some here may applaud such reporting, most of us cringe remembering all too well the very same media coverage that got us into Iraq.
if the report is right
then why not report it. People should not be afraid of a little explosive truth :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Is it right?
Probably not seeing as it runs contrary to the best intelligence on the matter and has no support whatsoever other than an anonymous source.
The media is playing the straight man for the Bush administration again. Its just that the routine isn't so funny anymore.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Read this letter from John Conyers to
Monica Goodling regarding her taking the 5th amendment.
Monica, do what Rove did, tell them the whole truth and you have nothing to worry about.
Curiously, I'd prefer she was subpoena'd and draged in before the committee in chains......That'd be a nice perp walk.
Keith Richards says he snorted father's ashes
yeah... story of the day
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17933669/
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Dear God
That's sick and funny at the same time.
This ,
on the other hand, is sad and funny at the same time.
qui tacet consentire
oh man
that is too hilarious.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
haha
I sorta wish I could go back in time and use some of those on tests I bombed.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
hehe
I felt the same way.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Best laugh I have had in quite some time...
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
you want to cry when you read these
letters from our guys who died in Iraq.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
thanks for the link
heartbreaking.
Seems like most of them were killed by bombs (or snipers). Like the first guy said, Those f---s fight so chickens---.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson