A simple quiz
Suppose we discovered that the earth was cooling rather than warming. Would you encourage people to drive more and use more carbon-based energy as a way of warming the earth?
(from http://cafehayek.typepad.com/hayek/2007/04/global_warming_.html with a minor change of wording)
Submitted by lordzorgon on Tue, 2007-04-10 12:46
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No.
Because the goal here is not to alleviate a particular symptom but rather to minimize our total impact on the ecology we rely upon to keep us alive.
Global warming may in fact lead to a severe drop in temperatures eventually (because the melting ice sheet would release lots of water which is then free to absorb atmospheric CO2 leading to the greenhouse effect reversing). Regardless of which competing force dominates (the reduction in water's ability to absorb CO2 with increase temp or the volume of "new" water released which can absorb CO2) it is likely to cause a huge disruption of the already battered ecosphere.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Perfect answer:
Bingo.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Cute
but a clear use of the either/or logical fallacy in implying that the only way to solve the problem of cooling would be carbon-emission based.
If it was a natural-cycle, I would say leave it alone and we should adapt. If the cooling was due to our meddling, then I would say let's find the cause of this problem and stop the process of this cause.
I doubt the Earth would cool because we are taking too much gases out of the atmosphere, but if that were the case, then I would say let's stop taking these gases out of the atmosphere instead of let's pump more into it.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
Why does it matter whether the cooling was "natural"?
I completely disagree. The real question is whether the cooling (or warming, for that matter) is beneficial or harmful to humans.
If the cooling/warming trend is beneficial to humans, we should welcome it with open arms, whether it's man-made or natural. We might even look for ways to speed it up further.
If the cooling/warming trend is harmful to humans, we should think about ways to slow, stop, or reverse it. We should not sit there resigned to our fate just because we didn't cause it.
I mean, heck, if an asteroid's orbit (which is about as natural as things get) caused it to be on a collision course with the earth, we wouldn't be talking about whether human activity caused gravitational disturbances that put it on its current path. "Who the flying **** cares? Let's build a spaceship already to fire nukes at it and knock it off course!"
And this is the point of the question. Is the goal to promote human welfare, or is it to attempt to restore the planet to some sort of "natural" state -- where "natural" is defined, oddly enough, as "the state the planet would be in if humans went extinct prior to the Industrial Revolution, or had the Industrial Revolution never happened." (A particularly odd definition because humans and humans' brains arose from a very natural process called evolution.)
This is the difference between "environmentalism" and "conservationism." Everyone is a conservationist, because conservation is common sense. The definition of conservation is nothing other than "don't be wasteful." Well, duh!
Environmentalism, on the other hand, when you strip it down to its bare essentials, is *not* about human welfare. It's a new secular religion where your religious calling is to minimize your "impact on the planet." (I won't mention the most obvious way to reduce your personal impact on the planet to zero, because it's way too obvious. I leave it as an exercise to the reader.)
Environmentalism is, at its fundamental core, opposed to the idea that man should use technology to shape nature.
I, on the other hand, believe that it is our right to use technology to shape nature however we wish, in order to promote human welfare. Obviously we need to be careful about how we do it (we don't want our use of technology to backfire and make things worse), but I am 100% in favor of climate engineering. Imagine if we had the technology to reshape the earth's climate to make both summers and winters less harsh. I'd be all for it! There would be countless benefits to so many areas of our life. (For starters, agriculture -- no more frozen peach and orange crops.)
Gross overstatement.
What a load. At the extreme edges, perhaps. Just like any other belief. But there are plenty of people who consider themselves environmentalists who simply want to see species thrive.
Take my father, for example. He is a fisherman. He is an avid environmentalist. He is against the Bush administration policy that has drained a number of California and Oregon rivers to funnel water to favored, giant agricultural interests. The rivers are now so low, that for the past several seasons, salmon cannot get up the rivers to reach their spawning grounds. The salmon count is now so low that the salmon fishing season has been cut to a matter of weeks. Just a few years ago, the season lasted four months.
Those in charge of the fisheries have pinpointed the problem and are heartsick about it, but they are not permitted to comment publicly for fear of losing their jobs.
They consider themselves environmentalists. So does my dad. None of these folks are "opposed to the idea that man should use technology to shape nature."
That's malarkey.
But, then, I suspect you know that.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Whoa there, LZ
Adapt does not mean we can't use technology. It just means we should try to keep the technologies effects limited to ourselves as much as reasonably possible. For example, if I chose to live in Alaska, I would not petition my congressman to use technology to warm the atmosphere. Instead, I would buy a warm jacket, insulate my house, and use whatever means possible to keep my immediate vicinity warm. That is still adapting (adapting does not mean letting biology take over for us). It is just on a micro-level rather than your proposed macro-level solution.
Yes, I think it is important to minimize our impact, and no, I don't believe we are the only species that has a right to exist. Our existence depends on other species flourishing, so even if you do take your selfish approach only focusing on humanity, it is in your best interest to protect the other species anyway.
Great strawmen throughout your response though. You took one line out of context and sure ran with it.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
Excellent points!
I state this a different way. Natural means the state of the planet as it would have been if humans had never existed at all. At least to the likes of ELF and PITA and whomever.
These groups lobby to save every species as it exists today as if humans are the only cause for extinctions ... and completely ignoring the fact the species were going extinct for millions of years before humans even arrived.
Absolutely correct, but it is NOT just about using technology to shape nature ... it is about having any discernable impact on the envrionment whatsoever.
Any impact or change to the "natural order of things", good or bad, where humans are the cause is unacceptable to these people ... and any such activity will be portrayed as evil. This latter point completely agrees with your observation about this being a form of a religion to them as well:
Note the change to your quote above. This is closer to the mark. Although in many ways I could have said "everyone else's" just as well because in general these same people don't really want to live with the effects of their feel good philosophy.
Take Barbera Streisand, for example. She has in the past issued recommendations on what people could do on a daily basis to help. Things like washing your clothes by hand and drying them in the open air. When asked whether she, herself, practiced these measures her spokesperson responded that she never meant for those recommendations to apply to her ... how convenient.
Or how about Al Gore, champion of the environment. Flying all over the place in private jets, but it is OK because he buys carbon credits (from himself, of course) to offset his impact. Yea, that's great, Al. Go on polluting all you want and expect someone in Africa to cook with some lame solar heater so you can continue to fly in your private jets. Now that's sacrifice. What a role model.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Yes,
let's take the most extreme form of environmentalism and create strawman attacks about it. Great strategy.
If I belonged to the 'GoRight School of Argument', now is when I should go ape about you grouping all environmentalists in one bag and strew derogatory terms all over for Brendan to come around and tell me to cool off and edit my comment. Luckily I use other argumentative strategies.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
Actually I think it is more often about a very few people ...
....who use technology in a most thoughtless way to maximize personal profit and push all the negative effects and expenses off on to others. Even when the "others" are themselves or their kids at some time in the future.
An energy wasteful car can be sold at a higher profit?
A change of technology will save energy and pollute less but be an expense in this quarter (even if more profitable over time)?
It is cheaper to flatten a mountain than it is to dig holes in it (even if it leaves a moonscape)?
A few percent loss of bulk plastic will cost more to handle than the value of the plastic lost (even if the pellets wipe out tons of marine organisms and lasts forever)?
Putting excess fertilizer will make sure that there is the maximum the plants are able to use (even if it creates dead zones down river)?
This is the thinking that is causing Global Warming. The difference between your definition of conservationist and environmentalist is how deeply they are thinking about the problem, and how far beyond the next quarter they are thinking it.
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.
Suppose
Newt Gingrich agreed with John Kerry that there was a human cause to global warming!!!!!!!!!!
The day the earth stood still. April 10, 2007.
Newt Gingrich endores John Kerry's book on environmentalism. And Bob Novak agrees with Jimmy Carter that the Palestinians are being dangerously disenfranchised by the separating wall.
I'm only half stupid
first
Bob Novak has been an anti-Israel ass**** for many decades so you don't impress me with his agreement with another anti-semite.
As for Newt... Good for him. If he buys into that, then that's his prerogative. I am all for market-based solutions, even to imaginary crises.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Good quote, Ender! :-)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4hehe thanks man :) n/t
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
LOL
Imaginary market-based solution to the imaginary problems in the imaginary world. And that world is flat. Obviously.
Sic semper tyrannis
Holy non sequitur, Batman! n/t
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
It's symptomatic of our idiocy
as a society that we're top-billing a debate between John Kerry and Newt Gingrich, neither of whom - to my knowledge - have much experience with climatology research.
Or that Michael Crichton is considered an authority for climate-change denial, which is understandable given his background as a doctor. I suppose next we'll ask meteorologists to perform open-heart surgery, since the two are apparently interchangeable.
This is as much a debate as evolution/creation is a debate: not in any sane meaning of the word.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
It's a crack up
for me, that folks at RedState have now disavowed Newt as THE go to guy for conservative inspiration....... ha!
Plus he's standing next to and giving credence to the much hated John Kerry. Really he may as well be standing next to Castro himself.......!
I find it highly amusing. Is the problem so serious that Newt would agree to talk to ......gasp..... the windsurfer?
Does it have political traction to move the people to do something..... that is my main concern. I mean if Newt says what's up something must be going on.
RedState slanders Newt for this as in as an evil Rockefeller Republican...... horrors.
I'm only half stupid
The new litmus test
I took a wander through Free Republic this morning and they too have turned on Newt. "Newts have always been green" and more of the same. And RedState is saying that Newt never was a conservative.
Yep, the Republicans have officially joined the flat earth / anti-evolution / anti-science society. Or, to be more accurate, if a Democrat supports it, whatever it is, it must be wrong. Independent thought is no longer allowed in the GOP; use your brain and you're toast.
It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. I wonder if Newt expected this level of response and if he'll backtrack to recover his status. I'd give even odds.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
I'm sure
there will be some backtracking. But I expect him to do something else as a diversionary tactic, something that publicly and loudly bolsters his conservative bona fides, to distract from this episode.
Bullseye
You're right. I forgot about the value of distraction in this type of situation.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
Hard core conservatives......
I don't know why they aren't backing ultra pro-life Sam Brownback? He seems like the ideal in conservative thinking. He's all about saving the dignity of embroyonic stem cells. The rallying cry of the anti-sex pro-life party.
I'm only half stupid
It's a tossup
Seems like they are torn between backing someone who meshes with their principles (Brownback, Romney?, Thompson) over someone who does not but whom they think might win (Guliani).
Not that I'm a paid consultant or anything, but it seems to me that the GOP has already paid a fairly heavy price for backing the guy they thought might win but who hasn't a conservative bone in his body. . . . . but what do I know ;}
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
That's like saying
"Suppose that cigarette smoking was proven to be beneficial to your health rather than harmful. Would you encourage people to smoke?"
After all, there's new evidence that smoking may protect against Parkinson's disease
. And by the logic of the typical global warming skeptic, that's proof that smoking is not harmful after all!
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Maybe
As Tlaloc alluded to above there are other issues with CO2 emission, most prominently ocean acidification
. It's also my impression that warming has a larger impact upon the ecosystem than does cooling, due to the potential for rapid increases in water level. Agreed with the implicit point that technology per se isn't the problem.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Carbon
Why would we want to use carbon? There are plenty of available technolgies we can use, we just need to discover them.
I think a better question is: outside of its cheapness, what is the benefit to using carbon fuel instead of solar, wind, or thermal?
Socialisme ou Barbarie!
benefit of carbon...
Energy density. Fossil fuels contain an amazing amount of punch for their size/mass. Unfortunately solar/wind/geothermal are simply incapable of replacing fossil fuels at their current rate of use.
Which is a good argument for dramatically curtailing our energy usage.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Or increasing the efficiency of solar, wind or thermal
energy capture.
pictures
Consider this map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Solar_land_area.png
They say that covering the small drak dots on the map with 8% efficient solar cells would provide the projected 2010 energy needs.
Which sounds good until you think of the scale of the map and realize each of those dots is about the size of kansas. Maybe bigger.
What we need to do is to change our energy usage patterns. Not just switch which teat we suck on.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Agreed, but
the solar issue could mitigate our dependence on any single energy source, which is part of what we should be doing anyway. As for the location issue, we have plenty of unused real estate for that: the roofs of buildings.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Go Nuclear!
And be done with it for a while. Here is a plan I salvaged from a previous post (in response to tlaloc) that puts together a 20 year plan to completely eliminate fossil fuel emissions world-wide AND the US can be Kyoto friendly during those 20 years to boot!
Sure, add in whatever assumptions you want to make the estimates come out the way you want, but don't complain when I do the same thing.
So let's revisit this issue based on my making the assumptions, shall we?
(1) I will assume that the IAEA (a favorite organization among the left, BTW) is competent to make these assessments because that are the internationally recognized "experts" in this area.
(2) Given (1) I assume that we have on the order of 2500ZJ of nuclear fuel for breeder reactors, and on the order of 17ZJ of nuclear fuel for once through use.
(3) Given that you are (a) comfortable with the use and development of Nuclear Energy, and (b) aware of the absolute urgency to take action quickly, I assume that you will be 100% on board with the development and deployment of Fast Breeder technology ASAP.
(4) Given (3) I assume that you will devote your time and effort to tirelessly use you vast powers of persuasion to convince the left-wing nut-case ecologists that Nuclear Energy is nothing to be afraid of and that due to the impending decline of fossil fuels we need to pursue it as quickly as possible. I further assume that you are successful in removing any concerns these people might have and further that they are so convinced of the need that they volunteer to man the hippy-style sit-ins required to provoke Congress into action.
(5) Given (3) and (4) I assume that you will support using that 2% GDP savings we got by blowing off kyoto to invest in the building of Faster Breeder reactors as quickly as possible.
(5a) If you find that you simply CANNOT stomach ignoring kyoto, I assume that you are OK with using some portion of the 2% GDP to purchase the credits under kyoto from under-developed or otherwise low-polluting countries to allow us to proceed for 10-20 years without any other infrastructure changes required for the fossil fuel based energy sources. So then we have kyoto covered nice and tidy.
(6) I assume that we will make sufficient investments in other available alternative energy sources based on already existing technologies (excluding Nuclear) to meet the need for any additional growth in consumption over the next 10-20 years.
(7) I assume that (6) is financed using Carbon Credits purchased by left-wing nut-case ecologists that are in turn invested in the required development of alternative energy sources.
(8) I assume that, consistent with (4) you will likewise use your vast powers of persuasion to convince the left-wing nut-case ecologists to forego any objections to (6) and (7) for the greater good of humanity and the planet as a whole.
(9) Consistent with (6) I assume that our current rate of Nuclear Fuel consumption of 0.03ZJ/year remains constant for the next 10-20 years.
(10) Consistent with (9) over the next 20 years we will burn up approximately 0.6ZJ of the available nuclear fuel leaving approximately 16.4ZJ of usable fuel remaining. This represents a (0.6/17)*100 = (approximately) 3.5% reduction in available fuel.
(11) Consistent with (10) I assume that in 20 years hence we will have approximately 2500 * 96.5% = 2412.5ZJ of nuclear fuel remaining if Fast Breeder reactor technology is on-line by then.
(12) Given that prototypes up to a capacity of 1000MW already exist
, and that other Fast Breeder reactors have already been built and operated
(see "Successful LMFR plants have been designed, constructed and operated, e.g. the BN-600 in Russia, the 1200 MWe Superphenix in France, and the 280 MWe Monju in Japan"), I assume that with a concerted effort production quality plans will be ready and construction can begin on whatever suitable number of reactors in required to completely supplant fossil fuel usage well within 5 years.
(13) Consistent with (5), (6), (8), and (12) I assume that the required number of nuclear plants to completely supplant fossil fuels are available within 20 years.
(14) Given the estimate of a worldwide annual growth rate of 2% between 1980 and 2004
, I assume that growth rate remains constant moving forward.
(15) Consistent with (14) the computation for the total accumulated energy consumption over time should look rather like the financial computation for an annuity. Thus, we have:
Growth Factor R = 1 + 0.02 = 1.02
Current Consumption Rate CCR = 0.5 ZJ/year
Total Energy Consumed TEC(t) = CCR * ((R^t - 1) / (R - 1))
We are interested in finding t where TEC(t) = 2412.5 ZJ (from 11 above)
TEC(t) = 2412.5 = 0.5 * ((1.02^t - 1) / (1.02 - 1))
==> 2412.5 / 0.5 = ((1.02^t - 1) / (1.02 - 1))
==> (2412.5 * (1.02 - 1)) / 0.5 = 1.02^t - 1
==> ((2412.5 * (1.02 - 1) / 0.5) + 1 = 1.02^t
==> logn( ((2412.5 * (1.02 - 1) / 0.5) + 1 ) = t * logn( 1.02 )
==> t = logn( ((2412.5 * (1.02 - 1) / 0.5) + 1 ) / logn( 1.02 )
==> t = logn( 97.5 ) / logn( 1.02 )
==> t = 231 years and change
This is a VERY conservative estimate as it accounts for an increase in energy usage from our current 0.5ZJ/year to 0.5 * 1.02^231 = 48 ZJ/year by the year 2258 (i.e. 2007 + 20 + 231). Personally I consider that absurd but you claimed the exponential growth would be more accurate so there you have it.
(16) Consistent with (5) the current GDP is approximately $13 Trillion
. 2% of that would be $260 Billion. Assuming a conservative 3% annual growth rate
over the next 20 years this should yield about:
$260B * ((1.03^ - 1) / (1.03 - 1)) = $6,986B over the next 20 years.
(17) At the current cost of about $5B (as of 1980s) the revenue generated by (16) should provide about 1400 brand new Breeder Reactors, or about 1050 if you assume only 75% of the money actually goes toward building new reactors.
(17a) Consistent with (5a) reduce the number of purchased reactors accordingly.
(18) Consistent with (12) if the number of reactors required to meet global requirements is greater than that provided in (17) and/or (17a) I assume that the rest of the world will buy their own friggin' reactors.
Now, this was fun and all. And the 231 year estimate is lower than I would have expected, but still allow plenty of time to find ways to better harness the sun. Since you like to hear from the experts let's see what the IAEA has to say on this topic:
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4I have no problem with
nuclear power as a remedy to this situation, but I wish we had a safe and responsible way to deal with waste (ship it to space?) and strong safeguards against accidents/targeting.
Under the circumstances, I think this solution may be the most effective and viable solution we have.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
Dunno about this idea
I'm thinking about something like this
with nuclear waste as a payload and I'm thinking that this might not be such a good idea...
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Agreed
that is why I am not 100% for nuclear. I do think we need to address the problem of nuclear waste before we switch to an all-nuclear source of energy, but I do not think burying it in a mountain susceptible to floods near a populated area in Nevada is the solution either.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
Their other solution...
...is to bury it in Piketon, Ohio, 70 miles south of Columbus.
I live in Columbus :-(
The sorriest Congresswoman of them all, Mean Jean Schmidt, is all for the idea of storing the nuclear waste in her district :-(
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
I used to feel bad
that Alabama had the worst congressmen of all -- until Mean Jean came along.
I feel sorry for y'all.
qui tacet consentire
Depends
If the cooling was being caused by human activity, then obviously we should do something about it.
If the cooling was a natural phenomenon, I would say leave it alone ...
... unless the cooling was so great that it endangered the ability of societies to function, if it was going to cause ice sheets to form as far south as Tennessee, for instance.
In that case I'd say that we should intervene to try to stop it or at least minimize the damage.
qui tacet consentire
If cooling endangers life
Why not use technology to solve cooling temporarily as long as there is no long term effect on the environment?
And the reverse of it is if you know that warming will cause the seas to rise and wipe out CA, NY and FL and this is preventable or can be minimized by green energy--why not do it?
If there is an asteroid that is hurling to earth--wont you use technology also to divert that asteroid?
The problem
is with the "as long as there is no long term effect on the environment" part of your first sentence. Technology 'corrections' have often failed in the past because they bring on unforeseen consequences.
Pesticides, such as DDT
, are one such example. After several years in use, Rachel Carson discovered that it was leading to the deaths of fish, birds that prey on fish such as eagles, and humans too. It increases its lethal concentration on up the food chain until it reaches the top, us. Once people figured out that pesticides may harm people too (duh), the growth of the 'organic' food market increased exponentially, returning us to where we were before technology corrections.
Now, a super immediate threat, such as an asteroid may require more action and less thought to long term consequences. Global warming is an immediate problem, but it will not kill us all in two weeks.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
Went and checked out the link
It has quite a few problems, not least of which is very old data that has been updated by intensive research since.
The current state of the art (downplayed by Gang Of Pirates) can be found here
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/index.htm
Climate Change 2001: The Scientific Basis
The biggest problem I saw however was the lack of recognition of the butterfly effect. That effect is massive in trying to understand weather systems and was first discovered when they tried. The implications of it are not much understood in the public however.
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.