The Paper Trail- Why "the Surge" Won't Work

The Army's Counterinsurgency Manual can be found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-24.pdf

It was authored By David Petraeus and James Amos both Lt. Generals at the time. The final version is dated Dec 2006. Petraeus has since been promoted to General and is of course currently the commanding General of MNF-I (Multi-National Forces in Iraq).

All quotes from this source unless otherwise noted.

Another common feature is that forces conducting COIN operations usually begin poorly. Western militaries too often neglect the study of insurgency. They falsely believe that armies trained to win large conventional wars are automatically prepared to win small, unconventional ones. In fact, some capabilities required for conventional success—for example, the ability to execute operational maneuver and employ massive firepower—may be of limited utility or even counterproductive in COIN operations. Nonetheless, conventional forces beginning COIN operations often try to use these capabilities to defeat insurgents; they almost always fail. The military forces that successfully defeat insurgencies are usually those able to overcome their institutional inclination to wage conventional war against insurgents.

page ix

So a question is: are our forces overcoming their "instituitional inclination to wage conventional war against insurgents?" The answer is mixed but less than encouraging in either case. In support of the negative contention just a year ago the army moved some AC-130 gunships back into Iraq:

http://www.taylormarsh.com/archives_view.php?id=2024

These are not counterinsurgency weapons but large scale suppression weapons. Using them against a foe who hides among civilians would be the very definition of an instituitional inclination to wage conventional war against insurgents.

On the other hand more recently we have news of the Army setting up small command posts police precinct like throughout Baghdad. This would be a nes tactic but unfortunately we already have morbid evidence that all it has accomplished is to give the insurgents a number of isolated soft targets to pick from:

Word of yesterday's deadly assault in eastern Diyala Province spread quickly among U.S. troops as far away as the western city of Tikrit, where soldiers with the 82nd Airborne kept a close watch on reports of their comrades sent to the Baqubah area to deal with rising violence there. The strike was what U.S. soldiers call a complex attack, one involving elaborate planning to maximize casualties. Initial assessments suggest that first a suicide car bomber rammed a vehicle into the gates of a small U.S. patrol base outside Baquba in the same area where single car bomber attacked a patrol base last month. A second suicide car bomber apparently followed the first in yesterday's attack, however. And at the same time insurgents fired small arms and rocket propelled grenades, according to soldiers from the 82nd Airborne. In the end, the patrol base was all or mostly destroyed, with several soldiers dead beneath the rubble.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1614091,00.html

Nine soldiers were killed, another 20 wounded.

COIN campaigns are often long and difficult. Progress can be hard to measure, and the enemy may appear to have many advantages. Effective insurgents rapidly adapt to changing circumstances. They cleverly use the tools of the global information revolution to magnify the effects of their actions. The often carry out barbaric acts and do not observe accepted norms of behavior. However, by focusing on efforts to secure the safety and support of the local populace, and through a concerted effort to truly function as learning organizations, the Army and Marine Corps can defeat their insurgent enemies.

page x

And what success have we had gaining the support of the Iraqi people?

The number of Iraqis who call it “acceptable” to attack U.S. and coalition forces, 17 percent in early 2004, has tripled to 51 percent now, led by near-unanimity among Sunni Arabs. And 78 percent of Iraqis now oppose the presence of U.S. forces on their soil, though far fewer favor an immediate pullout.

More than eight in 10 Shiites (as well as 97 percent of Sunni Arabs) oppose the presence of U.S. and other forces in their country. (Kurds, again, differ powerfully; 75 percent support the U.S. presence.) More than seven in 10 Shiites – and nearly all Sunni Arabs – think the presence of U.S. forces in Iraq is making security worse. Asked whom they blame most for the current violence in Iraq, far and away the most common answer – voiced by four in 10 Iraqis – is either U.S. and coalition forces (31 percent), or George W. Bush personally (nine percent). Al Qaeda and foreign jihadi fighters are cited by 18 percent (far more by Shiites and Kurds than by Sunnis).

Indeed, among the occurrences of local violence measured in this poll, the top mention is “unnecessary violence against citizens by U.S. or coalition forces.” Forty-four percent of Iraqis – including 60 percent of Sunni Arabs – report this as having occurred nearby.

Worsening views of U.S. and other forces in Iraq tracks the deterioration of conditions in the country. In the first ABC News poll in Iraq, in February 2004, 51 percent of Iraqis opposed the presence of U.S. forces on their soil. By November 2005 that jumped to 65 percent. Today, it’s 78 percent.

http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/1033aIraqpoll.pdf
ABC poll conducted 3/5/07

Now the Iraqis aren't exactly clear that they want the US troops gone (a contention held by 35% of the populous), but it's pretty clear that the US troops have not gained their support. A huge amount of headway would have to be made in order to claim the populations support with any real meaning.

COIN thus involves the application of national power in the political, military, economic, social, information, and infrastructure fields and disciplines. Political and military leaders and planners should never underestimate its scale and complexity; moreover, they should recognize that the Armed Forces cannot succeed in COIN alone.

page 1-1

Are we currently trying to win through armed force alone?

Under the original plans, electricity - upgrading power stations, transmission and distribution - was to take the largest slice of reconstruction funds: US$5.56 billion. That has been cut to US$4.24 billion. Oil and gas projects were cut from US$1.89 billion to US$1.72 billion, transport from US$870 million to US$800 million.

Projects to provide drinking water and improve sewerage systems suffered the biggest loss - almost half the US$4.33 billion earmarked. The lost funds were reallocated largely to security, which saw its budget increase from US$4.56 billion to US$6.31 billion. Healthcare increased from US$793m to US$820m. After all the reallocation, security took 34 per cent of funds, while electricity was below a quarter, water 12 per cent and oil 9 per cent.

As a result, Sigir found that by the beginning of this year, Iraq was producing 2.17 million barrels of oil and 4260MW of electricity: both below pre-war levels.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10431226

The actions of the COalition Provisional Authority have so far lead to 5 arrests, twenty some current trials and another 70 some ongoing investigations. If armed force alone is not expected to win it atleast is being expected to carry the vast majority of the weight in this fight. The commitment to, and execution of, reconstruction has be distinctly underwhelming.

The government normally has an initial advantage in resources; however, that edge is counterbalanced by the requirement to maintain order and protect the population and critical resources. Insurgents succeed by sowing chaos and disorder anywhere; the government fails unless it maintains a degree of order everywhere.

page 1-2

Given the recent suicide bombing in the heavily militarized and supposedly secure "Green Zone" hopefully I need not spend time demonstrating that the Iraqi govenrment has clearly not been able to maintain a degree of order everywhere.

For the reasons just mentioned, maintaining security in an unstable environment requires vast resources, whether host nation, U.S., or multinational. In contrast, a small number of highly motivated insurgents with simple weapons, good operations security, and even limited mobility can undermine security
over a large area. Thus, successful COIN operations often require a high ratio of security forces to the protected population. (See paragraph1-67.) For that reason, protracted COIN operations are hard to sustain. The effort requires a firm political will and substantial patience by the government, its people, and
the countries providing support.

page 1-2

We'll return to this, but it is good to emphasize now.

Insurgents have an additional advantage in shaping the information environment. Counterinsurgents seeking to preserve legitimacy must stick to the truth and make sure that words are backed up by deeds; insurgents, on the other hand, can make exorbitant promises and point out government shortcomings, many caused or aggravated by the insurgency.

page 1-3

Has our military preserved legitimacy by sticking to the truth? Well just this week we've had congressional hearing on the fraudulent stories told by the military about Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch. This is hardly the only case of not "sticking to the truth." During the Fallujah seige there were accusations of the US Army using White Phosphorus as a weapon (side note, WP is not considered a chemical weapon in the sense of it being outlawed by any treaties we've signed so the complaint was somewhat silly). The Army first denied that it had used WP as anything other than an illumination source and then later admitted it had in fact used it as a weapon:

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2005/11/16/phosphorus-fallujah051116.html

There are plenty more cases, but that'll do.

Before most COIN operations begin, insurgents have seized and exploited the initiative, to some degree at the least. Therefore, counterinsurgents undertake offensive and defensive operations to regain
the initiative and create a secure environment. However, killing insurgents—while necessary, especially with respect to extremists—by itself cannot defeat an insurgency. Gaining and retaining the initiative requires counterinsurgents to address the insurgency’s causes through stability operations as well. This initially involves securing and controlling the local populace and providing for essential services.

page 1-3

Emphasis added. As before we've established that the stability operations and operations meant to provide essential services have been utterly inadequate and there appears to be no sign that that will change. The surge does not involve putting 20,000 army corp of engineers in country. Nor has the increase in troops (to levels last seen in Dec 2006) done anything to reduce the casualty rates of civilians, troops, or police.

Weapons are especially important. In some parts of the world, lack of access to weapons may forestall insurgencies. Unfortunately, there is widespread availability of weapons in many areas, with especially large surpluses in the most violent regions of the world. Explosive hazards, such as mines and improvised
explosive devices, are likely to be common weapons in insurgencies. (See FMI 3-34.119/MCIP 3-17.01 for more information on improvised explosive devices.)

Insurgents can obtain weapons through legal or illegal purchases or from foreign sources. A common tactic is to capture them from government forces. Skillful counterinsurgents cut off the flow of arms into the AO and eliminate their sources.

page 1-10

Iraq is already flooded with weapons, and our forces are far too small to try and patrol its long borders.

A better force requirement gauge is troop density, the ratio of security forces (including the host nation’s military and police forces as well as foreign counterinsurgents) to inhabitants. Most density recommendations fall within a range of 20 to 25 counterinsurgents for every 1000 residents in an AO. Twenty counterinsurgents per 1000 residents is often considered the minimum troop density required for effective COIN operations; however as with any fixed ratio, such calculations remain very dependent upon the situation.

This is the money quote you may have heard previously. Twenty counterinsurgents per thousand population. Now in Iraq the military and police forces have turned out to be completely ineffectual if not down right counterproductive, so we're left with the MNF-I as the only real COIN troops.

Iraq has 26.7 million people, 2% of that would be 534,000 counterinsurgency troops (rather similar to General Shinseki's original estimate, huh?). Baghdad alone (pop. 6 mil) would require 120,000 troops to meet the rule of thumb minimum force. If we go for 25/1000 then it'd need 150,000 troops. In otherwords to do this right, according to the Army Counterinsurgency Manual, we'd need our entire in country force just for Baghdad. We'd need another 350,000 or so troops for the rest of Iraq as well.

Clearly the surge is inadequate to provide the troops that Gen. Petraeus believes would be needed. Now he does comment that the rule of thumb will vary according to the particulars, and that's fair, but does anyone believe that the particulars in this case are on our side? or so heavily on our side that rather than a 20/1000 ratio we can get by with a <6/1000 ratio?

I didn't think so.

Cultural knowledge is essential to waging a successful counterinsurgency. American ideas of what is “normal” or “rational” are not universal. To the contrary, members of other societies often have different notions of rationality, appropriate behavior, level of religious devotion, and norms concerning gender. Thus, what may appear abnormal or strange to an external observer may appear as self-evidently normal to a group member. For this reason, counterinsurgents—especially commanders, planners, and small-unit leaders—should strive to avoid imposing their ideals of normalcy on a foreign cultural problem.

page 1-15

Army difficulty in acquiring or keeping arabic translators has been widely publicized. How can any force hope to really understand a culture when they can't even speak the language?

Insurgent movements do not control the geographic borders of a country. In fact, insurgencies often rely heavily on freedom of movement across porous borders. Insurgencies usually cannot sustain themselves without substantial external support. An important feature of many transnational terrorist groups is the international nature of their basing. Terrorists may train in one country and fight or conduct other types of operations in another country. The movement of fighters and their support is vulnerable to intervention or attack.

page 1-18

Unfortunately in this case Iraq is surrounded by countries that are generally hostile to us, or that we will not engage politically because of historical hostilities. Even Saudi Arabia and Turkey, two usually close allies of ours, have been angered by the events in Iraq. Saudi Arabia has viewed our actions, with merit, as siding with the Shia against the Sunni. They have issued some very unusual rebukes to the US and threatened to openly back the Sunni insurgency with money and arms. Turkey meanwhile is threatened by the power of the Jurds in northern Iraq and has threatened to militarily invade to prevent Kurdish Iraq providing safe haven to the PKK, a kurdish terrorist group in turkey (ah, the irony).

Syria and Iran are of course fairly hostile towards us and we refuse to hold any meaningful negotiation with them at the same time as we lack the military ability to prevent them acting as safe havens or suppiers to insurgent or militia elements.

All insurgencies require funding to some extent. Criminal organizations are possible funding sources; however, these groups may be unreliable. Such cooperation may attract undue attention from HN authorities and create vulnerabilities to counterinsurgent intelligence operations. In addition, cooperating with criminals may not be ideologically consistent with the movement’s core beliefs, although it often does not prevent such cooperation. Funding from outside donors may come with a political price that affects the overall aim of an insurgency and weakens its popular appeal.

page 1-18

As above the CPA use of money was criminal (literally) and examples abound of graft. It would be rather starry eyed to assume none of those hundreds of millions of dollars of missing funds wound up in the hands of insurgents. In addition kidnapping has apparently been a source of money for them. Whether they have gotten involved in the inevitable drug trade I couldn't say, although it's a reasonable guess.

All in all I would guess that this collection of insurgents is probablydoing quite well in terms of cash.

Counterinsurgents remain alert for signs of divisions within an insurgent movement. A series of successes by counterinsurgents or errors by insurgent leaders can cause some insurgents to question their cause or challenge their leaders. In addition, relations within an insurgency do not remain harmonious when factions form to vie for power. Rifts between insurgent leaders, if identified, can be exploited. Offering amnesty or a seemingly generous compromise can also cause divisions within an insurgency and present opportunities to split or weaken it.

page 1-19

Again there is little comfort to be had here. While there certainly are divisions between the various insurgency elements we really can't exploit them effectively. Indeed in one manner there is too much division: the shia-sunni division has created a low intensity civil war which only promotes exactly the kind of chaos that insurgencies thrive on.

There is good news in divisions opening between the Sunni insurgents and foreign fighters. but we neither cause these divisions nor can we really do anything to profit by them other than letting them play out. And we could let them play out just as well from back here.

Controlling the pace and timing of operations is vital to the success of any insurgency. Insurgents control when the conflict begins and have some measure of control over subsequent activity. However, many insurgencies have failed to capitalize on their initial opportunities. Others have allowed counterinsurgents to dictate the pace of events and scope of activities. If insurgents lose momentum, counterinsurgents can regain the strategic initiative.

page 1-19

There are no indications that the insurgents have lost any momentum with the onset of the surge. Troop fatalities are up. Civilian fatalities are up. Police fatalities are up. March 07 was the third worst of the last 16 months at http://icasualties.org/oif/ for "Iraqi Security Forces and Civilian Deaths," only Aug and Sep 06 were worse. April is already worse than 7 of those 16 months and it still has almost a week left to go.

MNF-I casualties Jan to April have been 86, 84, 82, 99. And again April has days left to go. In fact April is already the 7th worst month since the war started, fifth worst if you go by average deaths per day rather than total deaths (to make up for the fact the month isn't finished yet and for the varying length of months).

The number of US wounded is down a bit, but coupled to an increase in deaths it's hard to spin that as a plus.

Momentum does not seem to be a problem for them, nor do 20,000 additional troops seem to be making a dent in it.

(stats from http://icasualties.org/oif/ )

Nothing is more demoralizing to insurgents than realizing that people inside their movement or trusted supporters among the public are deserting or providing information to government authorities. Counterinsurgents may attract deserters or informants by arousing fear of prosecution or by offering rewards.
However, informers must be confident that the government can protect them and their families against retribution.

page 1-19

Emphasis added. Again, given the suicidie bombing in the very heart of the green zone it seems unlikely any informant would trust the government to protect them from reprisal.

Ultimate success in COIN is gained by protecting the populace, not the COIN force. If military forces remain in their compounds, they lose touch with the people, appear to be running scared, and cede the initiative to the insurgents. Aggressive saturation patrolling, ambushes, and listening post operations
must be conducted, risk shared with the populace, and contact maintained. The effectiveness of establishing patrol bases and operational support bases should be weighed against the effectiveness of using larger unit bases. (FM 90-8 discusses saturation patrolling and operational support bases.) These practices ensure
access to the intelligence needed to drive operations. Following them reinforces the connections with the populace that help establish real legitimacy.

page 1-27

Clearly the precinct style small bases scattered throughout Baghdad is an attempt to put this idea into practice. What's not clear though is whether the insurgency has enough power at this point to simply swamp these smaller bases at their leisure causing drastic casualties as with the attack on monday.

This may be a case of the right idea conducted too late to do any good. Given the totally inadequate troop levels that seems likely.

As important as they are in achieving security, military actions by themselves cannot achieve success in COIN. Insurgents that never defeat counterinsurgents in combat still may achieve their strategic objectives. Tactical actions thus must be linked not only to strategic and operational military objectives but also to the host nation’s essential political goals. Without those connections, lives and resources may be wasted for no real gain.

...

Successful COIN operations require competence and judgment by Soldiers and Marines at all levels. Indeed, young leaders—so-called “strategic corporals”—often make decisions at the tactical level that have strategic consequences. Senior leaders set the proper direction and climate with thorough training and clear guidance; then they trust their subordinates to do the right thing. Preparation for tactical-level leaders requires more than just mastering Service doctrine; they must also be trained and educated to adapt to their local situations, understand the legal and ethical implications of their actions, and exercise initiative and sound judgment in accordance with their senior commanders’ intent.

The first part just needs to be re-emphasized. You do not win a counterinsurgency with firepower. Period. The firepower is only there to support the other tactics (creation of infrastructure/order). Since we are making no real attempts to do anything besides apply firepower to the problem we will lose. It's that simple.

The second part of the quote is really a shame because based on his writing Petraeus is a smart man who understands counterinsurgency. But clearly the Army as a whole does not. They didn't even have a counterinsurgency doctrine until several years into a war that was primarily a counterinsurgency operation. And it shows.

Virtually everything Petraeus says we shouldn't do we are doing. Virtually everything he says must be done we can't do. We are literally in a no win situation. We are going to lose Iraq, in fact we already have. The surge is inconsequential. Why the author of this tract which so ably shows all the ways the surge will make no difference is also the same man who is now supproting the surge I couldn't say. My guess would be that Petraeus is an old school soldeir and when the president said jump he high hurdled. Maybe I'm wrong.

But, whatever his motivations, The general's already given us a damn good reason to believe he's put himself in a no win position.

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Ender...

...by the way I'd love to see some of the redstaters who claim Reid's statement is so treasonous come and discuss this issue.

It seems to me that the very commander of the MNF-I has essentially said the same thing.

Oh yeah, that's a walk off challenge!

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

Nicely done

but I don't see any Republican responses here yet.

Maybe you should post this on RedState and see what reaction you get?

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

………… parent

Problem is...

...they tend to ban people when they lose arguments.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Promoted by me

Quick devil's advocate question: wouldn't you expect fatalities to rise in the event of a successful surge, if we were really taking the fight to the enemy? I don't think casualties tell the whole story.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

…………

Depends...

...Mostly I'd suspect fatalities to fall because the trademark of an insurgency is not toe to toe fighting. A real surge (as in 300,000 troops) would involve putting so many troops in place that the insurgents can't act in any kind of coordinated manner and basically have to hide. While they hide you build infrastructure and woo the people away from the insurgents to support your side.

I would expect a certain increase in casualties from accidents when you have more troops in place.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

That sounds reasonable

Good work, by the way. I hope you're wrong about the long-term prospects; it's certainly helpful that the hit-and-run Rumsfeld approach has been replaced with a multi-pronged stabilize and hold strategy, but it may be too little too late. After the fall of Saddam was when we had the chance to get it right; success now will cost a high price, if it's still possible.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Iraqi troops useless...

Now in Iraq the military and police forces have turned out to be completely ineffectual if not down right counterproductive, so we're left with the MNF-I as the only real COIN troops.

To support this contention of mine-

WASHINGTON - Military planners have abandoned the idea that standing up Iraqi troops will enable American soldiers to start coming home soon and now believe that U.S. troops will have to defeat the insurgents and secure control of troubled provinces.

Training Iraqi troops, which had been the cornerstone of the Bush administration's Iraq policy since 2005, has dropped in priority, officials in Baghdad and Washington said.

No change has been announced, and a Pentagon spokesman, Col. Gary Keck, said training Iraqis remains important. "We are just adding another leg to our mission," Keck said, referring to the greater U.S. role in establishing security that new troops arriving in Iraq will undertake.

But evidence has been building for months that training Iraqi troops is no longer the focus of U.S. policy. Pentagon officials said they know of no new training resources that have been included in U.S. plans to dispatch 28,000 additional troops to Iraq. The officials spoke only on the condition of anonymity because they aren't authorized to discuss the policy shift publicly. Defense Secretary Robert Gates made no public mention of training Iraqi troops on Thursday during a visit to Iraq.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/17104704.htm

"Stand up-stand down" has been put to rest.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

…………

The experts have known all along that the surge was

... a joke.

The same goes for the entire "stand up/stand down" nonsense that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld continued to peddle even in light of facts which proved they were lying about Iraqi troop readiness.

I wrote this post back on December 7, 2006 (good links within post) about just how wrong the "surge" strategy was according to the military's own experts. (That post was contained in this diary: Can we quit pretending now? There is no "Iraqi" army.)

Of course, just in the past week we found out this:

In a reversal, U.S. reliance on Iraqi army is fading

Training troops is no longer a priority, changing the role of American forces.

By NANCY A. YOUSSEF
McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON | Military planners have abandoned the idea that shaping up Iraqi troops will enable American soldiers to soon start coming home.

They now think that U.S. troops will have to defeat the insurgents and secure control of troubled provinces.

Training Iraqi troops, which had been the cornerstone of the Bush administration’s Iraq policy since 2005, has dropped in priority, officials in Baghdad and Washington said.

How come a guy like me using Google and reading the newspaper can identify the lies in the Bush administration's never-ending stream of lies on Iraq (everything from the number of Iraqi troops trained to the current "successes" of the surge), yet most of the media seems unable to to paint the broader picture?

Nevermind that today, the U.N. exposed the lies of the Iraqi government on civilian casualty numbers since the surge. The Iraqi government has been underreporting civilian casualties (at the behest of the Bush administration?) so that George and Dick and McCain can run around saying, "We're making progress!"

The bottom line one can say about Bush, Cheney, et. al. on Iraq is: If their lips are moving, chances are they're lying.

Either we know more about what they should be doing than they do, or they really don't give a sh** as long as their own sorry asses are covered.

And they claim they "support the troops."

How sad.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

…………

Thanks Tlaloc!

I think this makes a great companion piece to the Massa diary I just posted.

…………

Well-done

and very comprehensive.

I still hear people saying we should listen to the generals on the ground. Is it any surprise that Bush keeps on replacing his generals until they agree with his positions? Obviously Petraeus speaks differently when a true assessment is given, but he seems to follow the orders of his leaders (sic) fairly well too.

…………

I don't see why

I can't trust what General Petraeus is saying right now. He is saying that it is still too early to judge the surge - all the troops won't even be in until end of June. He also said yesterday that the sectarian violence is only 1/3rd of what it was before the surge - that is 66% reduction.

He did say that Al Qaeda activities have increased and their capability to cause catastrophic attacks has not diminished. That is worrisome but the surge was mainly about stabilizing Baghdad and reducing the sectarian violence that has paralyzed that city and government.

I see some improvement and general's statements yesterday have shown that to be true.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

…………

I just put the Brooklyn Bridge on the market.

Make me an offer.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

………… parent

well pardon me

for not calling such a distinguished and honorable general a liar.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Oh stop it.

As Tlaloc's diary clearly points out, Petraeus has called himself a liar by pretending the surge will do anything but make the situation worse.

He knows better because he's the guy who did the research and wrote the report on why it would fail.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

………… parent

Ender, the "66% reduction" figure is HIGHLY suspect.

Please note this news from today:

U.S. officials exclude car bombs in touting drop in Iraq violence

By Nancy A. Youssef
McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON - U.S. officials who say there has been a dramatic drop in sectarian violence in Iraq since President Bush began sending more American troops into Baghdad aren't counting one of the main killers of Iraqi civilians.

Car bombs and other explosive devices have killed thousands of Iraqis in the past three years, but the administration doesn't include them in the casualty counts it has been citing as evidence that the surge of additional U.S. forces is beginning to defuse tensions between Shiite and Sunni Muslims.

President Bush explained why in a television interview on Tuesday. "If the standard of success is no car bombings or suicide bombings, we have just handed those who commit suicide bombings a huge victory," he told TV interviewer Charlie Rose.

Others, however, say that not counting bombing victims skews the evidence of how well the Baghdad security plan is protecting the civilian population - one of the surge's main goals.

"Since the administration keeps saying that failure is not an option, they are redefining success in a way that suits them," said James Denselow, an Iraq specialist at London-based Chatham House, a foreign policy think tank.

Bush administration officials have pointed to a dramatic decline in one category of deaths - the bodies dumped daily in Baghdad streets, which officials call sectarian murders - as evidence that the security plan is working. Bush said this week that that number had declined by 50 percent, a number confirmed by statistics compiled by McClatchy Newspapers.

But the number of people killed in explosive attacks is rising, the same statistics show - up from 323 in March, the first full month of the security plan, to 365 through April 24.

And, yesterday, the U.N. issued a report noting that the Iraqi government was purposely underreporting civilian casualties since the start of the administration's "surge" strategy:

U.N.: Iraq withholding figures on civilian deaths

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The United Nations is unable to determine how many Iraqi civilians have been killed so far this year because the Iraqi government won't share the information, a U.N. agency said in a Wednesday report.

An Iraqi government official denied that the information was withheld to cover up the number of civilian deaths, and the prime minister's office said the U.N. report "lacks accuracy."

Even without the numbers, the report delivers a grim message: Iraq is facing "immense security challenges in the face of growing violence and armed opposition to its authority and the rapidly worsening humanitarian crisis."

...

The quarterly human rights report, written by the U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq, is considered the most reliable tally of civilians killed in the country, but Wednesday's report did not include the numbers for January, February and March.

Although it is lacking statistics, the report says anecdotal evidence indicates that assassinations and "large-scale indiscriminate killings" have kept the civilian death toll high, especially in and around Baghdad.

The way this administration and its installed lackeys in the defense establishment have lied in the past is a far better indicator of what is really happening than anything they say.

Want me to go back and dig up all the comments that ol' Peter Pace used to utter about how well things were going in Iraq and how many Iraqi troops were trained and "ready to take the lead?"

As I note upthread, the U.S. has all but given up on the idea of training Iraqi troops, just as I predicted numerous times last year.

These guys have been lying about Iraqi troop readiness for more than two years.

Sorry if their word is no longer trustworthy.

All the evidence points to the opposite of what Petraeus and Bush are claiming.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

………… parent

this man is very respected

and so I am going to wait and see. Like he said, many of our troops are not even there yet. I trust him a lot more than I do the Democrats hell bent on withdrawing the troops and ending our involvement in Iraq. They will say anything as well to portray the situation there in the most dire terms, trumpeting every bombing as evidence.

Both sides are suspect and I am going to wait and see yet again.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Believe what you want.

Did you even read Tlaloc's post?

Petraeus, himself, suggests that you need one counter insurgency fighter for every 25 people, the same ratio that Shinsecki cited in his original testimony before Congress when Paul Wolfowitz basically said Shinsecki didn't know what he was talking about.

No, both sides are NOT suspect.

The Bush administration propensity to make stuff up is suspect, as it has been from the very outset of this misguided war.

The only thing "surging" is American casualties, as predicted.

Bush doesn't give a damn about the troops as long as his own ass is covered. This "we're making progress" BS is just that: crap. And our guys continue to die for his hubris.

Good on you for supporting the Head Coward who sacrifices the lives of others to protect his own cowardly ass.

If you really supported the troops, you'd be making damn sure the pinheads who put all these guys in the middle of no-win situation would be held to account for their ineptitude and deceits.

Instead, you're an aider and abettor of this garbage.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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It is worse than a no win situation

It is an complete crises of gargantuan humanitarian proportions.

The reason we can't train Iraqi troops, is because if Iraqi's talk to the US they are threatened and killed.

Many thousands have fled outside Iraqi's borders, and they are stuck there with no money, no schooling for their children and no where to turn, creating a potentially worse crises involving Iraqi's neighbors.

Iraqi's in country trying to support their families when they become desparate enough watching their children go hungary, will accept the $125 for planting an IED. The US has created a crises here that is equal or worse to the mess in Africa.

It is just heartbreaking!

Think about this........ the US has come out of this looking worse than one of the cruelest dictators. The hubris of the neocon ideology has destroyed the country of Iraq which is in fact filled with living breathing humans who are suffering at the hands of the fools that thought they knew better.

The failure of the conservative ideology is culminated in Iraq.

It is the economy, stupid.

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eh?

the US has come out of this looking worse than one of the cruelest dictators

That's just complete nonsense.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Ask the refugees

living in Syria because they can't stay in Iraq safely. Their visas are expiring. They children are not going to school. They don't have jobs. And many family members have been lost or killed. They fled their native country not because Saddam Hussein was alive, but because the US killed him.

Why should the Iraqis be grateful because the US is using their country to fight a proxy war against Iran, and al_Queda and an insurgency. Why should they be grateful to the US for destroying their country under the pretense of liberating it.

It is the economy, stupid.

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And yes it is a humanitarian crises

It is the economy, stupid.

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do you have any clue

about the "cruelest dictators" that we are worse than?

Do you remember Stalin, Mao, Hitler? We are murdering people for the sake of murdering people?

I am done responding to you on this. You are saying the same crap as the worst of dkos.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Defeatist surrender monkey

See?

That's the strategy. Ignore the truth in favor of invective. Cheney, Bush, Giuliani and McCain have all been using this tack this week to attempt to distract the public from the realities in Iraq.

Unfortunately for them, reality keeps intruding.

Yesterday's NBC/Wall Street Journal poll proves that most Americans (except for the hardcore believers like Ender) are no longer buying the lies spun by the administration:

Americans siding with Dems against Bush
NBC/WSJ poll: Skepticism on Iraq policies reflected in 2008 candidates

WASHINGTON - As the Democrat-controlled Congress and the White House clash over an Iraq spending bill, with President Bush vowing to veto it because it contains withdrawal deadlines, the latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll finds that a solid majority of Americans side with the Democrats.

In addition, a nearly equal number believe that victory in Iraq isn't possible, and about only one in eight think the war has improved in the three months since Bush called for a troop increase there.

"They don't see the surge working," says Democratic pollster Peter D. Hart, who conducted the survey with Republican pollster Neil Newhouse. Instead, they are saying "we need to get out."

...

Yet the poll shows that 56 percent say they agree more with the Democrats in Congress who want to set a deadline for troop withdrawal, versus the 37 percent who say they agree with Bush that there shouldn't be a deadline.

What's more, 55 percent believe that victory in Iraq isn't possible. And 49 percent say the situation in Iraq has gotten worse in the last three months since Bush announced his so-called troop surge.

The problem with lying all the time is that, eventually, people no longer trust what you have to say.

That's what's happening to Bush and company.

Only the "true believers," the "Kool-Aid drinkers" like Ender are still swallowing this baloney.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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Aw come on

Don't you know, we all think this simply because that's what the leftist media tells us to think. We are not able to think for ourselves.

The spouse this morning reiterated why TV has no appeal. A report came on about the survey that says 9 out of 10 doctors accept money or other goodies from the drug companies, and therefore perhaps the doctors' objectivity is a wee bit compromised.

Gosh. And to think, I needed the news people to tell me that. Backed up by those almighty statistics, too.

Life is far too surreal sometimes.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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There is no reward for being ahead of the curve...

.... in American politics.

Many of us surrender monkey liberals knew this war was a disaster-in-the-making from before it was ever started.

It has taken the American public a long time to catch on to reality.

But just as there is no reward for being ahead of the curve, there is harsh punishment for being behind the curve.

That is what we are seeing now for Bush and McCain.

The upside is all with those urging our leaving Iraq.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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"most Americans"

means nothing to me. "Most Americans" don't determine the facts of any situation. The beliefs of "most americans" depend on their collective feelings and the mood in the country and not on any real facts because most Americans are not paying attention to the facts.

So polls are meaningless, and while I don't support the President much, I am not willing to join the anti-war mob mentality.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Newsflash, Sherlock.

In this country, a war cannot be waged without popular support. Now, in a more dictatorial nation, such events can occur, as with the Soviet misadventure in Afghanistan (and maybe you prefer a more dictatorial form of leadership -- I'm not sure).

But not here.

At one time, this war enjoyed overwhelming support. Not now. So you can slough off opinion polls all you want. But unless we have someone like Putin running this country, this war will not go on forever.

That's the great thing about a democracy. Ultimately, the people get to decide, just like they decided to put Dems back in power in November.

Bush and his Iraq policy are to the Republican Party what the iceberg was to the Titanic.

Prepare the lifeboats, Ender. But remember, it's women and children first.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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uhhuh

I didn't say war could be waged forever without popular support. Vote a Dem in who will withdraw, or cut off the funds and override Bush's veto. Or impeach Bush or something. Otherwise he will keep doing whatever he wants legally.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Who said a word about "legally?"

Politically is what we were discussing.

There is no doubt that Bush will dump the horrific mess he has created into the lap of the next president.

That is precisely what has always made Bush such a coward. He has never in his life been held personally responsible for his own actions. He never faced the consequences of being such a monumental f***-up because he was always bailed out by his daddy or his daddy's friends.

And to think that so many from your team -- the party of "personal responsibility" -- view him as some kind of hero is hugely ironic.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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he is no hero to me

nor do I think the situation is as horrific as you portray it. Iraq is f***ed up but it's truly not the end of the world.

That's where we really differ. US is in fine shape. Our military is in fine shape once we get the hell out of Iraq. Our economy is in fine shape. Our constitution is in great shape.

Bush is going to be judged for screwing up Iraq but it's really not the end of the world.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Every single time you are presented with facts that counter

your prevailing view, you discount them, or, more frequently, ignore them.

That is one reason why I quit spending time around here. You refuse to deal in facts.

Yesterday, I pointed you to an article by knowledgeable, conservative General that stated quite clearly and unequivocally that our military is broken.

Your response?

Zip.

Yet, here you are again today making this ridiculous statement:

Our military is in fine shape once we get the hell out of Iraq.

Based on what? Your intuition?

And again today in Tlaloc's diary, you ignore almost every fact presented to you and respond, instead to some nitpicky point in some other offhand comment.

Having a discussion with you is like talking to air.

You never bother offering up a scintilla of information to support your claims.

Waste of f**ing time.

Spouting uninformed gibberish based on your own biases without anything to support your point-of-view is hollow.

See ya' round.

What a waste of time.

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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I hope

you stick around, but if you take off, I can't really blame you. Give your dog a pat for me.

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Nah, I'm leaving.

Waste of time.

There is no sense in researching actual facts when the other side speaks in inane phrases borrowed from hollow bloviators that deny all reality.

The vacuous comments belie a "head-in-the-sand" ignorance that makes posting in hopes of an intelligent discussion an exercise in futility.

See ya' `round...

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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I may be in

Chicago for YearlyKos. My wife's family lives there, so we go every summer anyway. I don't post too much at Kos (a I had a spurt a month or so ago), but I thought it might still be fun.

Maybe I'll see you there and buy you a beer.

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I confess

I am sick of the partisanship.

I have had it up to HERE! And it does seem like a waste of time when everything that you know to be true is slammed as some kind of fiction.

What really is frightening to me....... is our National Security.

The War Funding bill...... had extra money for vets programs, and extra more to spend on what the troops need. They count the days when they can come home and now they are being told to stay longer.

Plus many small farmers and ranchers will likely die off and have to sell the farm without the funds in this bill. Never mind Katrina.

It is scary that Bush is so isolated. And that there are people in this country that are so deluded that they still support him.

The US has destroyed Iraq....... oh no big deal. It's just politics. Sickening.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Two questions

I trust him a lot more than I do the Democrats hell bent on withdrawing the troops and ending our involvement in Iraq. They will say anything as well to portray the situation there in the most dire terms, trumpeting every bombing as evidence.

When should we withdraw our troops and end our involvement in Iraq?

What constitutes good evidence for withdrawing from Iraq and where might such information be found?

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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I think

when the President and commanders exhaust their options which will probably be apparent after the surge is concluded.

Statistical evidence of decline/increase in civilian deaths, insurgent uprisings, stabilized towns/cities, could all be indicators for whether there is improvement in Iraq.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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When will we know the "surge is concluded?"

When Bush and the generals tell us it's concluded?

Dog chasing its tail...

If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?

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