Monday Open Thread
SC has become almost the opposite of what its founders wanted: instead of a fierce partisan debate forum (and there is still plenty of that), it's more like an eccentric family that doesn't agree on anything, but still gets along very well. Or maybe that was the point all along? -- Pico (link
)
A bloody Sunday yesterday in Iraq. Tornadoes devastated some midwest towns. And Gingrich is telling fellow Republicans to avoid topics related to President Bush's failures. (link )
Submitted by Mike Pridmore on Mon, 2007-05-07 08:14
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Comments :
Speaking of dsyfunctional
I enjoyed this article from 'The Autralian'
What is it that has caused people to absolutely lose their minds, and create this mythical towering enemy from a fairly backwards culture of Islam.
.....while missing the fractures and corruption within our own nation.
Rotting Empire vs Inept Enemy
It is the economy, stupid.
SC
The site is still quite small. Assuming it grows it'll most likely become more clique-ish and we'll all be less accomodating and more hostile towards those with differences due to having our own view mirrored back to us.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Do you think so?
Most of the core group here now has changed over time, and while there's always some pretty heavy friction when really controversial topics get thrown around, we seem to adjust alright.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
It's my suspicion
You say it's changed but has it ever been appreciably larger than it is now?
My guess is that as the site grows you'll develop sub communities. Some members of these sub-communities will genuine reach out/argue in good faith. meanwhile others will participate merely to cheerlead for their side. Those members will tend to form echo chambers. Of course everyone has control to what extent they let themselves get sucked into their side's echo chamber.
I'm not saying it'll ruin the site or anything, but I think it's unlikely that the site will stay similar to the current atmosphere if it grows to significant size.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
The Key quality ...
...is that all sides are represented fairly and honorably, as long as that is so, SC will not devolve into an echo chamber, and few ideas without substance (on either side) will survive.
As a result I would expect that both sides would have a deeper understanding, and might even reach a resolution, at least in some areas. At the very least it should wash away the straw dogs and allow the humans on each side to actually meet.
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.
I think you're right
If this site grows significantly, some clique-ish behavior would be inevitable. We have a bit of that now, but only because (IMO) it takes some time to get to know the other posters and how they express themselves. I know I do better when I take some time just observing, to figure out if I am interpreting someone correctly, and I'm not exactly the shy type.
But I'm not sure that something like this site will ever get very large, simply because it's not easy being partisan while being willing to talk to the other side. Just yelling at the other side gets old fast (again, IMO) because you spend a lot of effort getting nowhere. It's not intellectually satisfying.
It takes time to build some rapport. Discussing politics with people who do not share your views can feel like walking around naked. It's easier to put your opinions out there on something controversial if you have some level of comfort that the other person will not misunderstand every word you write.
The French say they know how to talk politics at the dinner table. Americans are not so good at that.
But I think we should try. A house divided cannot stand, or something like that. . . .
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
Privatization of healthcare
Via Kevin Drum the NY Times has a report on the privatized portion of the 2003 medicare package.
What was the result?
If you guessed "higher costs, worse service, and flagrant abuse" you win the prize.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2007_05/011257.php
Just one more datum that shows that privatization of essential services is a terrible, in fact down right criminal, idea.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
You should see what they are doing to HUD
underfunded, underfunded, and underfunded
It is the economy, stupid.
Our tax dollars at work
sniffing out terrorist coinage.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,270413,00.html
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
Microwave it on high for one minute...
That will destroy the "nanotechnology" circuitry (and possibly the microwave too, but it's a small price to pay to defeat the terrorists and keep America safe from Canada).
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
skymutt has a good diary
on "pork" in the emergency funding bill here
-- check it out.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
And while you're over there...
...check out quaoar's latest
on an Iraqi blogger's firsthand impressions of post-Katrina New Orleans and comparisons to Baghdad. Interesting stuff...
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
What's with you guys?
Crosspost already! Sheesh
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I was going to crosspost this one..
Here's my excuse-- nobody is on SC usually in the middle of the night, and I was going to be up all night, so I was planning on crossposting it here before the morning... but the diary made the rec list, and most people here scan dKos anyway, so I figured there wasn't too much reason to repost it. I never intended to repost all my dKos diaries here anyway... this site is small and a lot of us write a lot of diaries, and if there's too many diaries compared to the number of participants, the commenters get too spread out-- fewer diaries keep us in a few places, and the conversations are more persistent and interesing IMO. So I'll probably never post more than half my diaries here, occasionally writing diaries for here that I don't post over there (I've only written one of those so far, am probably due to do that).
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
An Iraqi blogger visits New Orleans
Made it into a DKos diary.
qui tacet consentire
woops...
just posted this above... oh well, go read it everybody
.
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
Oversight reports
http://electioncentral.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2007/may/04/hous...
Remember, you can't tell the players apart without a scorecard.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Apropo of the Dow record "highs"
Looking through old blog posts of mine I found one linking to a Cunning Realist blog.
http://cunningrealist.blogspot.com/2006/04/ready-for-anything.html
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Thanks!
The price of onions is outrageous.
It is a little frightening.
So what does this mean, we should invest in the stock market, or overthrow the government.
And what is with the Oil Barrons. I feel like we are being Enronized, or Califronicated....... and nobody is talking about it.
It is the economy, stupid.
He used the Hitler comparison!
You must be a liberal.
Of course conservatives frequently say liberals are just like Hitler and the Nazi's too. I must admit, for the life of me I STILL can't figure that comparison out.
You liberal you!
Death penalty for repeat child molesters?
It's under consideration
, but there's a lot of opposition:
We can't figure out how to deal
with child molesters once they're released, but harsher penalties have their own problems. Not sure what the solution is here... too bad we can't ship them all to Australia or something (and yeah, that's been suggested
).
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I vote no on this one.
Life in prison? Possibly.
Death penalty? No.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
How about sentancing them to life
in a geriatric facility?
Ha! Perfect answer. n/t
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Wow, cue the freezing-over-of-hell:
I agree with GoRight completely!
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
And you thought your Dad was wrong
about you becoming more conservative! He he. :-)
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
That's not the problem
We know how to deal with child molestors, we just don't want to do it.
The right way is to treate them as mentally ill, because they are. The worst cases should be institutionalized until such time as they get rehabilitated, or if they don't confined for life. The milder cases should be treated with therapy, monitoring, some drugs (Prozac and many antidepressants have the side effect of lowering libido), and so on.
But that's "soft on crime." And nobody wants to be seen as soft on this crime. We'd rather use a system that pretty much guarantees recidivism than allow someone to paint us as treating pedophiles as human beings. Sick human beings to be sure, but still human beings.
For a related story:
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8158
(sex offenders may have special license plates to identify them)
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
It would decimate Bush's Base
Republican child molesters
I know of no similar list of more than 3-5 Democrats
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.
I'd support
the death penalty in this case. I don't understand the argument that the sicko molesting a little girl would want to go ahead and kill her as well just because the sentence is the same. The motivations for the two acts would probably be different and without killing the death penalty would not be automatic anyways because it would apply only in the most heinous cases - just like the death penalty for murder, it does not apply to all murder.
So killing a girl after molesting her would make the death penalty more certain. Regardless justice should be done and death is appropriate to repeat molesters.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Because...
...a dead child cannot be a witness at a trial.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Liberal hipocracy?
Having summarily dispensed with those pesky constitutional concerns
, I want to return to a question related to school vouchers.
Is it reasonable and fair for Liberals to take a position that tax dollars should be used to fund abortions (something the Christians consider to be murder), yet object to having it paid as School Vouchers which might be used to fund religious schools?
Thoughts?
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
I'm not sure I understand the parallel
or why it's a relevant one. A more salient parallel would be circumcision, since that's a medical procedure connected with religious belief.
btw: "hypocrisy". I don't usually note spelling errors, but that one's pretty pervasive (and unintentionally funny, considering what the root -cracy means). :)
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Government by hippopotamus...
...is oddly appealing after 6 1/2 years of Bush, but I'm still going to hold out for the Democrats :-)
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
Government by horse, even.
Although there's an extra "p" missing.
And we all know what happened the last time they let a horse hold an official government position
!
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Or how about hypocracy = insufficient government?
etymology be damned, I still think that hipocracy ought to mean "government by hippopotami."
But I'll defer to GoRight, since it's his word :-)
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
Apples =/= oranges
Those two things are entirely different matters. The objection to funding religious schools is that it is a direct violation of the establishment clause. Meanwhile the objection to abortion is based on religion, and hence following it is a violation of the establishment clause.
But nice try.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Oh really?
You might want to follow the link I provided ... ;-)
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
From your link...
Which means that a "bitterly divided" Supreme Court found that under these circumstances a voucher program could be constitutional.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Ergo, it cannot possibly be a
blanket "direct violation of the establishment clause" as you stated.
The five point test is a guide for lawmakers so creating a voucher program which meets these criteria should be straightforward which, in effect, eliminates the establishment clause as a barrier to school vouchers.
This then opens up the field of debate to discuss the ethics of resisting a system that is, by design, targeted at allowing the poor to escape the inner city school systems which are currently failing them.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Well...
...assuming the decision stands and isn't modified or recinded by a further court decision, then yes.
But before you get all excited you need to remember that the vouchers pushed by the GOP won't pass the test for several reasons.
In other words what the GOP has tried do is in fact a blatant violation of the establishment clause. But there is something similar to what they want to do that they barely got the court to sign off on once.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Cling to your threads of hope.
Because before I pointed this out the thought of it was inconceivable to you.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
To be honest...
I don't think that tax dollars ought to be used to fund elective abortions-- only ones where it is a health or life issue, rape/incest, etc.-- which is very close to the current state of affairs as I understand it under the Hyde Amendment, although abortion is not an issue that is very prominent on my radar. I probably could be convinced of other carveouts, but I'm against funding abortions simply because of financial need. It may alleviate some poverty problems but 1) it's too controversial and divisive to use tax dollars for, and 2) I'm not altogether comfortable with elective government-paid abortions myself.
And I'm against taking tax money to send kids to private schools. Public schools can work-- our "greatest generation" overwhelmingly went to public schools. Vouchers would further gut the public schools and probably mean the end of our public schools once and for all.
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
I think the reason
it came up at all is because of the stereotype associated with pro-life societies: essentially it's a class issue more than a moral issue, since enforcement is largely limited to the poor. Those with a little more means can afford to send their daughters away for discreet weekend trips at places less antagonistic to the procedure.
I don't think that's directly connected to the issue you're discussing, but I just wanted to point out that abortion has long been tied to class and affordability, which might have something to do with it.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
It's a tough issue
I tend to think that we are served fairly well by the current laws-- again, making that statement with the disclaimer that I am not the most informed person on the subject. I am not aware of an epidemic of back-alley abortions on the one hand, and nor am I aware of an epidemic of taxpayer-funded abortions costing the taxpayer endless billions on the other. I am sure that many poor people forgo an abortion because they can't piece together the money for it. Just one of many disadvantages to being poor in our society, and while I think government can and should help poor people in many areas, government cannot possibly remove every single disadvantage of being poor. I think there's probably better and less controversial opportunities to help the poor elsewhere.
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
Clarification.
OK, let me ask this question in a more pointed way ...
Why do liberals always think that they should get their way and are never willing to compromise?
The above question sets up exactly that scenario.
On the one hand the liberals are more than willling to force people to pay for abortions ... yet when it comes to compromising (i.e. giving something to get something) they dig their heels in like school vouchers just because that might go to funding religious based schools.
Where I was going to go with this is, should anyone be allowed to object to what tax dollars are used for? Who gets to decide which objections are justified and which are not?
If we start putting limits in place just because someone objects or is offended or whatever, can't this be used as a argument against ALL taxation? Yet the logical alternative, allowing NO limits, seems like it could lead to taxes being used for just about everything repugnant. Actually, given some of the (so-called) art that the taxes have funded maybe we are already there.
Thoughts?
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
pointed = even dumber
Gee, I don't know, when are you going to stop beating your wife?
Sure if you totally ignore the vast differences between education and health issues.
You can't be serious. It is decided by the state. The state has a rather large number of methods and means for determining what are acceptable uses of tax dollars from local city regulations all the way up to the Constitution. These methods are all, to one degree or another, influenced by the general opinions of the electorate.
You're side of the abortion debate had every chance to change things (controlling the presidency, the congress, and having taken the SCOTUS) and just didn't. Don't bitch at us because you didn't get the result you wanted.
And certainly to try to pass off some third grade but why does he get to decide bullshit.
You need to go back and rethink this whole matter because you are engaged in a serious self clownification program.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
reply = laughably pathetic
Right after your wife stops beating your ass from here to next tuesday.
Really, what possible relevance could those have to the question at hand? Perhaps plain english is not your forte?
Yawn. I'm not bitching at all, I just want to discuss the ethics and morals associated with whining about spending money to educate (among others) the poor ... even if that means sending some money to a religious school.
The SCOTUS case at hand pretty much says it all. The Cleveland school system was (is?) failing them to such a level that they have to hold a lottery to hand out the vouchers because so many people want them. Inner city schools? Gee, I wonder who is in charge of those? And they are failing? Go figure.
In spite of this, pathetic wankers such as yourself oppose the measures that they all want and need to get ahead in life. I guess you must be one of those people who like to see them downtrodden, eh? Does that make you feel better about yourself or what?
I guess that questions of morals and ethics, like so many other topics, are outside your sphere of comprehension? Why else would you avoid tackling the issue head on only to hide behind some pathetic appeal to "the system"?
Gee, I guess I really should listen to this one. After all, judging from your posts I would have to say that you are the site expert on self clownification. You seem to engage in it on a regular basis, practically every post in fact.
You call me third grade and this is the best you can come up with? Go back to playing with your blocks or ask you mommy to change your diaper ... it seems to be full.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
uh huh.
That you really have to ask how the differences between education and health care could possibly play into a question of comparing education and health care indicates you are not ready to have this conversation. Spend some time thinking about the issue on your own first.
Vouchers have nothing to do with educating the poor.
Gee, I wonder which party has been choking off as much tax revenue as possible from schools, and their failing? Go figure.
But of course after doing your worst to the kids in these inner city schools you're all about helping them. I wonder why people think that's a cynical line of bullshit...
Yeah, that's why I actually support schools and taxes to run those schools. And do you, Go right? Have you supported your local taxes in violation of the Club for Growth's hard line? Come on, you can be honest here... it's not like we don't all know you're lying already.
You don't give a damn about these kids, if you did you couldn't possibly support a party that has done everything it possibly can to screw them. And is continuing that trend with vouchers.
Hint: vouchers don't help the poor. It's nothing more than a means to soak up government tax dollars, cause public schools to get worse and then send the money to GOP supporting churches. Really, we know all about the plan, you can stop with the innocent act.
You idiotically asked how it is we decide what money gets spent on. I spelled it out for you in detail and you still don't get it.
Why am I not surprised?
Actually I called your argument "third grade... bullshit." There's a reason for that. I'll let you ponder it after you manage to piece together why healthcare vs education is important and how tax dollars get allocated.
You've got quite a lot to sit down and work out there.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Is English not your first language or something?
My question had nothing to do with comparing education and healthcare, dufus. It had everything to do with considering the morals and ethics of using tax dollars to fund your pet projects while refusing to let others do the same.
I guess all those words confused you. Here, let me get rid of the extraneous bits to help you out ...
I tried to give you a hint above with:
And in response all you can manage to peck into your keyboard is:
You can't even correctly interpret what question I was asking when it was right in front of you in plain english and then you think I don't get it?
Hint: You might want to ask your wife if she has noticed any changes lately like slurring of speech or comatose expressions because I suspect brain damage. Oh, and you better ask her if you are NOT doing those things now also just in case that is your normal state.
Yea, I support the local schools. I pay my taxes every year even though my kid doesn't attend your indoctrination centers. In fact I pay them in two separate school districts. How about you?
You don't know jack shit about what I do and don't care about. We're not the ones failing today's youth in public schools, its people like you who just want to keep them trapped in a failing system. The ever declining rankings of US students in comparison to their foreign counterparts speaks volumes for how much the Democratically controlled and run system is doing for them. Yep, that ought to help them compete all right.
Yea, it has nothing to do with the poor. That's why so many poor families are lining up in Cleveland to get the vouchers that they have to run a lottery to dole them out. But still the Democrats wanted to shut the whole system down. Why's that?
The plan? I think your tin foil must need adjusting. There's no plan, unless you consider trying to help the poor escape the ghettos a plan. You might also want to ask your wife about that whole paranoia thing as well.
I know there is. It is because you have trouble using grown up words and piecing together small phrases.
That's ... O ... K.
I ... un ... der ... stand.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Getting one's way
My macro reaction:
I thought protection of individual property (i.e. my money) was one of the "big two" of why we bother with government in the first place. So, yeah, I expect to have a say-so in how my tax dollars are used.
My elected representatives. (We've had prior threads on exactly what that means and I'll look them up if you want to see them.)
Now that you know where I'm coming from on this, to answer this more specifically, I'd say that arguing them as comparative either/or makes the process more complicated than it has to be. We have enough trouble figuring out what to do about abortions and what to do about the schools without conflating the two. So compromise would be within the specifics of each issue, not between two unrelated issues.
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
CRS on Congressional authority to end or limit the war
Congressional Research Service on the arguments for and against Congress being able to limit or end the war against the President's objections:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33837.pdf
Some excerpts
Which to me sounds like congress can defund the war, apply restrictions to how money is used, and even recind the AUMF. Although in that last case nothing is likely to change unless they also defund or at least restrict the funds appropriated.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
sounds like
I missed all the fun. Just got back from a long weekend away :) I am back though. Of course I am proud of my boy Sarkozy - it would've been a shame if the scaremongering socialist won. Sounds like someone got a man-date.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Admin task :-\
I posted a giant cat picture in my last diary.
You can delete it if you need to.
http://www.swordscrossed.org/node/1184#comment-49697
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
I think it's funny
That cat is huuuuuuge and vaguely scary rather than cute.
Happy to delete it if you'd like, however.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
He's expressive
that's for sure. Aloof or just confident? An interesting animal.
I just didn't want to be causing any problems with the site for being outsized.
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
I thought
that huge cat was eyeing my mouse... had to click away from it... LOL
Yeah
at that size he's eerie. Kinda like the giant head of Brian Williams.
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
it doesn't seem to be
a big deal :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Where have you gone Tariq al-Hashimi?
...Iraq turns it's lonely eyes to you...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/07/iraq.sunnithreat/index.html
(found via Kevin Drum)
That's 16% of the government that is about to walk, next week, if a major breakthrough doesn't happen. Maybe he's bluffing and maybe he can be stalled but there's no reason in the world to believe that the Sunni bloc's concerns are going to be dealt with by this fractious and inefficient government.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.