Health Care Discussion Thread
I'm presenting this as an example of the position of the right and this
as representative of the left. If you think something else more fairly represents either side you can say that. If you agree with these two as representative, then let's argue on the merits.
The Right:
Market forces, if properly introduced, can fix this problem. Second, every American should be required to carry health insurance. Provide assistance for low-income individuals to obtain coverage. Health-care plans must be designed to promote healthy behavior starting with prevention and wellness and incorporating full-care management programs for those with chronic and acute conditions. Individuals must be able to purchase health care in the same tax-advantaged way as businesses do now.
The Left:
How to Cut Costs? Efficiency and Prevention
Three priorities: making coverage affordable for all, improving the value of coverage for all, and financing the investment necessary to achieve a seamless, high-quality health system.

Comments :
My take
is that the insurance industry (link
) and big pharma (link
) are stealing us blind. And this is weighing down those businesses who are providing health benefits. This is particularly true in the American automotive industry. I think the Republican approach is wrong-headed, in that market forces alone will not fix the problem, and I think the Democratic approach mostly ignores the real problems.
Market forces, if properly
Amazing, isn't it, how the people mosty in love with economics are the same ones who completely misunderstand it?
Market forces are useless when it comes to health care. In order for market forces to operate people have to have options and have to be able to intelligently evaluate those options. Neither condition is met with regards to health care.
http://tlaloc.gnn.tv/blogs/6959/Okay_who_broke_the_Invisible_Hand
It is a sign of their economic illiteracy (or more likely their corrupt indifference) that agencies like Heritage try to push the continued privatization of health care.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Universal healthcare for children?
I've always wondered why more people didn't push for this, on both sides of the aisle. It seems to hold appeal for people on the left, since providing healthcare to everyone is an eventual goal. But it's also immune to arguments from the right, since children can hardly be expected to pay for, evaluate, and participate in the healthcare market on their own. Given the social conservatives' push for protecting the fetus, you'd think they'd want healthcare protections for newly-popped-out babies, as well?
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
What you'd think
You'd be wrong, mostly.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Well, it was partially rhetorical.
Sadly, I knew the answer to that question before posting it. I have never understood why people buy in so readily to that swindle, attaching such a moral revulsion to abortion without a shred of equitable treatment of actual babies and children.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Ought to be a minimum starting point for discussion
There is no reasonable argument against providing coverage for children -- it's morally right (in an abstract philosophical sense), it's progressive (in that healthcare for kids shouldn't depend on parents' income), it's cheaper (prevention always costs less; as it is now society picks up the tab for later problem), and as you say the arguments about personal responsibility don't apply. Plus, I don't care if parents want to supplement whatever the basic universal healthcare is with private insurance, or just spend extra on elective care, so Republicans shouldn't have a quarrel there.
Tying insurance for children to their parents' employment is insane.
Keep an eye on California
-- this could set the tone for the Presidential debates, in which health care will certainly be a hot topic.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
My cynical side
suspects that the Left isn't pushing this because it deflates one of the strongest arguments for outright universal healthcare. If the only people left uncovered are adults, it'll be harder to convince people that healthcare isn't just an issue of personal responsibility.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Say what?
"No reasonable argument?"
Simple: it isn't my responsibility to pay for someone else's children.
It isn't my responsibility to pay for their food.
It isn't my responsibility to pay for their housing.
It isn't my responsibility to pay for their education.
And it sure isn't my responsibility to pay for their health care.
I am not my brother's keeper.
If you can't afford to have children or don't know how to take care of them... *don't have children*! If you have children anyway, despite being unable to afford them, don't come crying to me about how your life sucks.
If I freely *choose* to pay for these things for other people or their children, that's one thing, but it is wrong for the government to forcibly confiscate my money to pay for them.
I also disagree on the claim that it's "cheaper," but that's a secondary issue.
For the sake of a civilized society
what are you willing to pay for...... ?
It is the economy, stupid.
I think
George Harrison wrote a song about this called, "I, Me, Mine."
Military, police, and courts
Keep me safe from people who want to kill me and people who want to take my stuff.
Maybe a few other things like a fire department or flood protection on major waterways.
I'd add roads/bridges/airports/etc. to the list, but I think that with modern technology we could now have most roads run by private toll road operators (you get billed automatically based on mileage driven each month, with rates jacked up during rush hour and cut in the middle of the night).
I just question the practicality
and the definition of what you consider to be civil society that is so inherently selfish.
We the people of the United States of America......
It is the economy, stupid.
Agreed
So much of life is also not as controllable as this premise assumes. What about the family who seemed to be 'fit' to have children and then a random event derails everything? A spouse is killed in a car accident or dies of cancer despite living a completely healthy lifestyle from the start? What then?
Life is just never that simple or under our complete control. Shoot - I have insurance through my employer but I can only afford the co-pay and out of pocket premiums on an HMO plan. So an abnormal mammogram and now some surgical procedures which need to be done to clean something out are taking *months* and also requiring me next week to go through one procedure at one facility and then finish off at another!
If only it were that simple
I feel this way sometimes too. But the issue is more complex than you're portraying it.
Sex often results in children. That's the point of it from nature's perspective. People enjoy having sex. It's the most primal urge of any species. Telling people not to have sex is telling the species to go extinct. It's not going to happen.
Yes birth control is available. But it's expensive, at least the nearly-foolproof kind ($40/month plus $200 twice a year, and rising), and not necessarily the safest thing to take long term. Some groups frown on birth control and believe fate / nature / God should determine family size. Adoption is available but all babies are not adopted or adoptable. Abortion is controversial. We don't do infanticide.
Babies happen. Have you always done your part in non-creation? Uh huh. See what I mean?
I think a more logical approach is called for. There are many ways to skin this particular cat.
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
At the risk of a very un-conservative answer...
...I'll pay for birth control or an abortion now if it will save me hundreds of thousands of tax dollars down the road in health care, education, and welfare costs.
If I offer someone a free abortion and they decline, I don't want to hear one peep about my "social responsibility" to help their poor, starving kid.
That is a consistent answer
And it may be what the future holds.
But the trick is getting enough people to agree on your approach right now.
(BTW, I think this illustrates why it's way past time for the GOP to figure out what it's going to be. There is too much essential conflict between the positions it tries to reconcile.)
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
Well put:
How they've held it together this long is beyond me.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
This is not un-conservative ...
it merely seeks to optimize efficiency and increase profits! Long live capitalism!
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
While not
"un-conservative," I think it is a minority opinion. Do you agree?
Somehow
I think Leon (and every R presidential candidate) would strenously object to your characterization of publicly funded abortion and birth control being conservative opinion.
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
Perhaps.
But you know me, I'm and optimist and like to look at the bright side of everything! :-)
Besides, first things first, and as the Democrats allways like to claim we are about the almighty dollar first and foremost, right?
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Maybe in your world
Maybe you should take this test? Most of us here have already.
Don't agonize over the questions. Some are intentionally ambiguous. Go with your gut reaction.
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp
I peg you as an ESTJ. But that's just a guess.
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
Here are my results.
I have taken this type of test many times. I always come up INTJ, but here are my scores in case you wondered:
My results:
INTJ
Introverted: 78%
Intuitive: 25%
Thinking: 44%
Judging: 11%
Qualitative analysis of your type formula:
You are:
The second of these describes me pretty well:
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Oh my word
So am I.
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
Speaking of capitalism
How are those gas prices working out for ya?
It is the economy, stupid.
Gas prices...
Actually, given the historically low fuel prices we've paid (at least compared to other countries) we're doing OK. (But then again I'm in NYC so I don't drive, but still...)
Bottom line..if fuel demand goes up along with prices, there won't be a "correction" Anytime soon. Imagine if you had a business where you raise the price of your good and then more people come to buy it! They complain about prices and send "Let's not buy any XXX gas on XXX Day" e-mails and then dutifully fill up their gas-guzzlers. If demand for fuel was leveling out or decreasing with rising prices, I'd understand. But demand is going up, so maybe people can actually afford it.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
That is the most ethical answer.
It is the economy, stupid.
Punishing the wrong people
Your position is fine in an abstract libertarian sort of way, but doesn't make sense in our society. We've decided that government *does* have certain responsibilities (otherwise why would we pay taxes?) and education, for example, is legally among them. We provide food stamps and free meals, we provide housing assistance and shelters. Now, you might argue we provide too much, but since we already go so far why shouldn't we provide health care for kids? It's consistent with our current society -- you're advocating a drastic change in how we view the responsibilities of government.
But I don't care about the parents! If their life sucks, that's their own problem, but if the life of their children sucks, that's something we as a society should address (within reason).
On the contrary, running education or health care as private charity is just silly, since you're dependent upon the (fluctuating and unstable) generosity of others. I find it odd how conservatives, who rightfully deride the naive utopianism of communism, suggest private charity as a large-scale solution to providing services we as a society have decided are required. Depending on something so critical to magically work absent regulation or enforcement is wishful thinking.
Again, I get your position, I don't disagree with it in theory, but in the context of our current society it's sort of meaningless. I don't think you'll get a lot of people to sign on for a no-safety-net society, that ship has sailed.
Edit: but ok, "no reasonable argument" was hyperbole.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Yes, I am proposing a radical departure from the status quo
Never said I wasn't! Eventually, I want government rolled back to its size from about 100 years ago (federal spending was maybe 2-3% of GDP).
I am also well aware that my views are not very popular.
We already do a bunch of things that we shouldn't be doing. Adding one more item to the list makes that problem worse, not better.
Why? I am not convinced.
I agree with that sentiment. I am *not* proposing that charity is a viable large-scale solution. I am merely saying that if someone wants to set up a charity, I have no objection to that. Go knock your socks off starting charities and asking people for money.
What I am objecting to is forced charity.
I am happy to grant that in the absence of forced charity, voluntary charity would *not* wipe out poverty, etc. Of course it wouldn't.
if the life of their
Because you're running a business, not a country. People are not numbers.
If this is a fundamental conflict of ideology that we'd never be able to get past, that's understandable - but you'd find yourself king of a desert island if all you want are the numbers to move efficiently.
It's somewhat disconcerting that death bothers you less than inefficiency.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Don't think that leap is warranted
It's somewhat disconcerting that death bothers you less than inefficiency.
Whether it bothers lz or not hasn't been stated -- he's not convinced that *society* should address child health care, but that doesn't say anything about what he would or wouldn't do as an individual.
Helluva way to put it, too...
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
But that's exactly my point, Brendan:
there are two ways to think about what LZ said: either irresponsible abstraction, or morally vacuous rejection of responsibility. In fact, I'd initially posted that comment without the last line, but added it in an edit because I don't think it's an unfair charge.
We have the highest infant mortality rate in the industrialized world. To reject healthcare for children, faced with numbers like that, means either a dispassionate view of death or, again, a level of abstraction that I find pretty incomprehensible. LZ's sometimes indignant rejection of "socialist" economics from the left shows that s/he's not an entirely dispassionate person, so I lean towards abstraction.
Which, as I said, is irresponsible.
I understand what you're trying to argue, but "personal responsibility versus social, community responsibility" doesn't mean much in terms of children. They're not capable of self-sustaining, so if we leave them to their own devices, the results are partially our fault. Because a sick child (specifically one who doesn't have to be sick) doesn't much care if the fault lies with his/her parents, the local community, or the state. The rest is just hot air.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
"Infant mortality" claim
At best, a highly misleading claim -- this statistic is not measured consistently across countries.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=6219&type=0&sequence=0
And from the PDF:
I simply don't see why it is my problem
Yes, there are people in this world whose life sucks. Why *should* I care? Why is that my problem as opposed to being their problem? Why is it my responsibility to fix other people's problems?
As I said earlier in the thread, "I am not my brother's keeper." I reject the concept of social responsibility.
Or, "if I didn't make the mess, I shouldn't have to clean it up." I didn't create infant mortality. So why is it suddenly my problem to fix it?
What I find particularly objectionable is when government *forces* me to engage in acts of so-called social responsibility, e.g., by taxing me to pay for welfare programs. No thanks -- I'd much rather keep my money for myself!
Death and inefficiency
I think a more accurate way of putting it would be: I see death (or the length of life) as just another factor that needs to be taken into account in the tradeoffs we face in life.
There are good tradeoffs and bad tradeoffs that we can make. Spending $1000 to save 1 life? A very good tradeoff. Spending $1B to save 1 life? A very bad tradeoff. $1M to save 1 life? Harder to say.
Further, we ought to be willing to spend more money to save the life of a young person than that of an old person (think in terms of # of years of life extension rather than "preventing a death", because you will die eventually for some other reason anyway).
Health care is a scarce resource. Further, the more health care we produce, the less of other things we produce. If you give people free or massively subsidized health care, they'll consume it in very large quantities -- no less so than if you gave them free gas or free (anything else). This will result in a suboptimal outcome: people will consume lots of health care that fails to meet any sort of cost/benefit test.
In the end, what is needed is a rationing scheme: no, you *don't* get all the health care you want. HMOs are one sort of rationing scheme. A government panel deciding what procedures are allowed is another sort of rationing scheme. But these are all inferior rationing schemes to the one the free market provides automatically through its price system. The price system says: buy all the health care you want... but you're going to pay for it.
I think I more or less called this one
Fundamentally different approaches.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Some thoughts
If the kinds of medical expenses we are really talking about were reasonably affordable, then a market-based solution (like the current one) could be manageable and even superior to a government run system. But the expenses that need coverage are astronomical in relation to the normal earnings and assets of "the average citizen."
We handle other astronomical expenses by sharing the costs and amortizing the capital investments over decades. For example, they just replaced one 36" water main in my subdivision. It probably serves about 1000 homes, if that. The one it replaced was sixty years old. It cost over $5 million. That's a lot of money. Yet some cancer patients are charged that much if they choose to live. How can we expect the average citizen to handle that kind of expense, or die?
Health is different from property. People choose to buy property or to risk property, and capitalism provides the insurance. Back when the amazing infrastructure of our medical system didn't exist and its benefits were less concrete (and less hyped), maybe it made sense to let the market provide the solution. But times have changed. Patients know that procedure X might save them from a debilitating disease or from death. The people seem to agree that using these procedures is wise; society thinks they are a good thing, even a necessary thing, like freeways and sewers.
The market approach is not working; we all know the numbers. The process is so obsure that the consumer effectively cannot know what a procedure will actually cost in advance. The consumer cannot choose to deny incurring much of the cost ("Nurse, take out that spit tray, I don't need it and I refuse to pay for it. Ditto on the kleenex; I brought my own. Doctor, only one Xray today, I've got to buy the son some shoes."). When payouts reach such proportions, the insurance market is effectively closed to new competition; the ante is too high for new businesses to moderate the effects of increased monopolization.
We should begin treating healthcare like we treat our sewage systems, water mains, freeways, and other necessary pieces of infrastruture. I don't see how we can do otherwise. How we get there, what we cover, how the process works, is all up for negotiation.
The added bonus is that we would remove a big imbalance in labor market and allow it to operate more freely. American employees are more expensive than elsewhere because our employers bear the additional cost of health insurance.
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
good points..
It's tad bit late for deep thought, so I'll chime in tomorrow.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Your "The Right" position is a long ways from mine
Anyone who argues that "every American should be required to carry health insurance" and that we should "provide assistance for low-income individuals to obtain coverage" isn't much of a conservative. And to describe that solution as one that harnesses "market forces" (when in fact it sounds like a Big Government solution) is, frankly, absurd.
My basic approach would be as follows:
1. Tax employer-provided health benefits as regular income. Eliminate all the other provisions in the tax code that subsidize health care. No more HSAs/MSAs/FSAs, no more itemized deduction for medical expenses, etc. Everyone pays for health care using after-tax dollars. Use the extra money to cut income tax rates across the board.
2. Phase out the federal Medicare, Medicaid, and S-CHIP programs. States would be allowed to run their own health programs if they want, but not with a single cent of federal tax dollars. Again, use the extra money to cut income tax rates across the board, and of course eliminate the Medicare payroll tax.
3. Repeal the laws saying that hospitals are required to provide uncompensated care. If someone shows up at a hospital and doesn't have insurance and can't pay for a procedure, too frickin' bad. You do not have a right to free health care.
4. Allow people to buy health insurance from providers in any of the 50 states, even if the out-of-state provider does not follow the regulations of your own state. This lets you get out of all the mandated coverage provisions, which makes it possible to buy a much cheaper bare-bones policy if you want.
5. Let the states fight it out. Some states can pass universal health care programs; some can leave it to the market to sort it out; and some can do something in between.
My ideal health insurance plan would be a high-deductible plan with big incentives for healthy behavior. For example, I would make anyone who smokes or with a body mass index above 25 pay extra on a sliding scale (your premiums might be tripled if you're 60 years old, you smoke, and your BMI is 40), and I would allow you to claim a rebate for getting vaccinations (get a flu shot, get a $100 check in the mail).
I think we can
safely call yours a "far right" opinion. Do you think the Wash Times piece is close to where most Republicans are?
It's coming...
Universal health care, in some form, is coming I'm afraid. If the GOP decides to let the status quo ride and act as if the market will magically fix things then they'll be taken kicking and screaming to a socialized system.
While it sounds efficient, I don't know if single-payer health care is really gonna work. If they plan to collect the monies to fund single-payer insurance in the same way they run our "single-payer" tax system, I'm not looking forward to it.
I think requiring employers to provide basic care is a good start, but there will also be a number of people who don't work (or retire) and will continue to need adequate care. Lastly, prevention can only get you so far. Some medical conditions are inherited. We shouldn't be able to just say "too bad, you shouldn't have inherited such an expensive disease."
BUT, despite all that, the biggest concern with universal coverage is the rationing of health care. At this point, I can make an appointment to see my neurosurgeon, dentist, and PCP all within 2 weeks or so. I just fear that once we move to Universal Coverage, people will take the queue times to months, clogging the system with minor health problems (colds, headaches, etc.) that can be easily remedied at home. There's also the component of people who chose unhealthy and risky habits. As long as they are willing to pay higher rates (like most other insurance pools) or that healthier individuals can get rebates, I think we'll be OK.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Regarding your concern
as to whether it will work or not, we have at least a dozen industrialized nations who do provide nationalized healthcare to learn from. If the British model seems a poor fit, we can examine the German, French, Canadian, Japanese, Australian, Danish, Norweigan, Swiss. . . .or maybe we cherry pick parts of each to meet our unique needs.
We don't have to figure this out from scratch. We can examine what other nations have tried and done well or done poorly. In fact, it would be stupid not to use their experiences in our evaluations of the options open to us.
We need a better word than "rationing." Because, realistically, if the government is footing the bill I expect them to be wise stewards of our cash, which means that yes, some elective procedures will be delayed or denied, or will not be done the same way our expensive and inefficient system does them today. Can we call it "smart utilization" or something?
And remember, we don't have to go for the deluxe package. We could start with national coverage for hospitalization, extreme diagnostics (MRI/CAT), and extreme illnesses, but leave things like routine dental work, shots, sore throats, well-body checkups, etc out of the picture. It's the cost of the expensive stuff that drives up the price of the simple stuff. Remove the expensive items from the equation and the simpler stuff may come down to a more reasonable price.
"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran
Just a few issues...
My only concern with rationing isn't the naming convention, but the concept. Your solution for including only catastrophic/expensive procedures, maybe. However, in reference to the "government footing the bill"...I think we're the ones who will still be paying for this, no? And the government is incapable of being wise stewarts of our cash, no matter how high our expectations are. With private companies, if we don't like Blue Cross Blue Shield, we can go to Aetna, or USHC, etc. If the government takes control, our choices will be severely limited because most companies won't compete against free services.
As for the countries who provide UHC to its citizens, in most cases the countries are quite homogeneous (so it's easier to control costs). Many of the other countries are either moving to a more privatized system or raising taxes through the roof.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186