Tuesday Open Thread
Throwing this one out as a run out the door. Feel free to chime in with what seems important to you.
[Edit by Ender] Rival N. Irish factions enter power-sharing era . And Sarcozy's win explained here
and the unlikely corners it came from:
Perhaps most striking was the 52 percent of the women's vote he captured against 48 percent for Royal, which indicated the campaign transcended gender issues and became truly a choice between ideas - the tough-love message of Sarkozy against Royal's more nurturing vision.
And "Royal's best showing was among 18- to 24-year-olds, but Sarkozy tallied 57 percent among the 25- to 34-year-old tranche."... A huge win for hopefully a new ally.
Edit by Brendan: for those of us who don't speak French, tranche defined (in case it wasn't clear from context).

Comments :
The French
and the British...... are both undergoing changes in leadership.
Blair out. Sarcozy in. The changing of the poodles.
I'm only half stupid
Carter and Clinton.
I guess that they were just the poodles of the UN?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Rippin Clinton so early in the AM?
Well, we can all see why.
Clinton actually listened to other countries and worked WITH them. dubya disdains the peasants.
Clinton led an economic boom that floated the whole worlds ecomonic levels. dubya only cares about the (republican) top 1%ers.
Clinton bestowed respect on the bond and word of America in the world. dubya doesn't give a shit.
So.....We realize you abhor any democrat out there. Why don't you tell us one thing dubya has done that Clinton didn't do better.
Hey, its what I do! :-)
Not just Clinton, though, I also included Carter. Doesn't that help make it less like pure Clinton bashing?
The fact remains that neither Clinton or Carter did anything without first asking permission from the UN. In that sense, they were poodles ala missliberties use of the term.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4How about ...
pissing off his opposition? :-)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Put more criminals into
Federal Management positions
than anyone in history.
Bush is better at a few things
* he keeps himself a little more fit than Clinton
* he clears brush better
* he either is more faithful to his wife or he is better at sneaking around without getting caught
That's about all I've got. It's a pretty short list.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
he is also better
at picking wives...
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Yea, Laura
can run over and kill ex-boyfriends better than Hillary any day.
Touche
Laura is a bit too Stepford for my tastes anyway.
qui tacet consentire
oh gosh yes!
I actually never minded Laura until quite recently. That appearance on American Idol for instance? Her expression never changed! It was kinda creepy. Like someone painted on her smile and it's just stuck on now. Ooh - remember when you mom would warn you not to make funny faces because your face would get stuck? Maybe it was true!!!
That's way unfair.
Look, I despise Laura Bush as much as the next person who fears plastic clown demonic smiley faces, but I think that comment is way out of the pale. It was a car accident - she missed a stop sign - and I'm sure it wasn't the happiest day of her life.
Sorry, this is probably the only thing I'll ever jump to Laura Bush's defense on, but I think using it against her is totally uncalled for.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I was going to say the same
but in slightly rougher terms but then just gave up. It's definitely way beyond the pale.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
You were going to use rougher terms
than "plastic clown demonic smiley faces"??? :)
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Sure ...
How about the Speakerette's "cud chewin' hypno-eyes face?"
Hmmm, ok, so maybe that wasn't actually rougher.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Bull pucky!
Hillary was a lawyer and is a senator and now a presidential candidate. She raised Chelsea, who I would take in a heartbeat over Bush's Paris-Hilton-like delinquents. And even her opponent in the last senatorial race admitted that she was looking better these days and was surmising if she had had some work done ;-) Laura Bush was an enabler to George Bush's drinking for over a decade, she raised spoiled brats, and has made Marie-Antoinette-like statements repeatedly, especially regarding Iraq.
While neither woman is exactly a Segolene Royal in terms of being a prize catch, I give a strong nod to Bill in the choice-of-spouse department :-)
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Yea, I can see that.
I mean, who doesn't want an over bearing, leather faced, screech harpy for a wife? I just don't know how Bill has managed to keep her all these years. You think with all of his playing around someone else would have snatched her right up!
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4And the French think we're uncivilized
And more violence since.
Say what you will about American politics, although we might protest, carry signs, rant, and generally create a ruckus we are not in the habit of reacting with this level of violence. I hope we never do. Not with regards to the outcome of a fair election, anyway.
http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2007/05/08/afx3696593.html
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
College football.
You are right, but that is only because we reserve this type of mayhem for the really important things like the outcome of college football games. :-)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Yes, but even then
not in the civilized south. . . hehehe
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
:-)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Here in the South
We would never burn up a perfectly good vehicle over a stupid politician.
God intended for vehicles to be raced on the weekend, not burned up. Trucks are for haulin' and cars are for racin'.
qui tacet consentire
I'm sad to say...
...that after a big game, cars are for turnin' and couches are for burnin' in certain parts of campus here in Columbus :-(
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
the french
seem have a much more raw state of affairs in the relationship between the people and the government, and between the classes in general. Their immigrant population is marginalized, hostile, and unassimilated. Their workers believe that they are entitled to their job no matter what they do - and it is almost impossible to fire someone in france. If that is threatened, the labor protests on a mass scale that are unprecendented in our Middle Class dominated society.
It seems like the US is generally more affluent and sedentiary society without too much of a pretext to get riled up, and without an inbred sense of entitlement that permeates some European societies and especially France.
Hopefully Sarcozy is strong enough to smack that head on.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
The French are a stubborn and proud people
If Sarcozy is smart he will seek concensus with the left.
He is already display some sense by picking a very moderate (least hated by the left) head of ministries.
Let's hope he still remembers his history.
Sarcozy asked that the US to be a strong leader on solutions for Global Warming.
I'm only half stupid
Oh, I don't know about that.
If we still had as strong a sense of segregation as the French did, and we elected a president who not only supported that segregation, but did so with a few choice comments about what he thinks of the non-French population, I think we'd see a fair amount of conflagrations. Heck, look what we did over the trial of a former football player.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
True
If we did have the same sense of segregation (and entitlement) then maybe we would riot in the streets. And if something extraordinary were ever to happen, such as sudden unwarranted imposition of martial law, or a breakdown in civil order (Katrina, the big one in LA, tsunami in NYC), then street violence might be the reaction.
But, despite all the faults of our society, I think we deserve credit for our ability to work within our established methods of resolving grievances. Resorting to street violence over election results (with 85% turnout no less) is a symptom of a society that has truly lost faith in its government, for whatever reason.
We should cherish our cultural tendency to lawfulness and support it. IMHO.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
I agree with that. n/t
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Christopher Hitchens on God
HIs new book.
God is Not Great:How Religion Poisons Everything
As a fan and a propoenent pugnacious rhetoric, I am highly amused.
Hitchens writes:
Reviewers description:
I especially like this idea of replacing hell with the Hubble Telescope.
The title itself is a satirical twist on a muslim chant... God is Great.
The paradox that religous leaders insistance on slavish adherance to the ideal and correct path for salvation, often creates entrenched intolerance and conflict.
I'm only half stupid
yes
There is an interesting Newsweek article about it that I read - With God in His Sights
. An interesting excerpt:
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I am still amused!
I welcome the conversation. I love it when people shake things up, and I hope his book does exactly that.
Dinesh D'Souza has already weighed in.
Taking Aim At God and MIssing
Dinesh suggestd that the Israeli Palestinian conflict is not some religous creation of radical rabbi's and mad mullah's, but simply about the land. He may be right, but the pretext and undercurrent of religon unavoidable.
Well, authors are a strange lot. Hitchens is quite famous for his treasured sip of wine. Besotted but still thought provoking.
Left liberal weak-mindedness, and the rights staunch unbending dogma, both come under review.
I'm only half stupid
I don't necessarily (completely) disagree.
I certainly believe that theistic religions are a creation of man. I do not believe that god actually passed any words to those who wrote the bible, per se.
I am comfortable with a view that traditional religions were created as a template for how to live one's life, and that much of the ritualistic aspects of these religions are aimed at making things easier for the uneducated to assimilate.
I believe that it does not matter whether a God truly exists or not. Even if God is a fabrication of man's imagination, he still fulfills the role on Earth that is required of him. I am comfortable with the concept of God as being a metaphorical entity which embodies those concepts which are important within the dogma of a given religion.
I find this point interesting:
In other words, he is evangelizing for a secular progressive view of religion. I know you won't like me calling it religion because that conjures up images of the "evil supernatural", but from the perspective that Religion is nothing more than a moral code and a prescription for "right thinking and living" I honestly believe that there is a case to be made that secular progressivism is actually the left's version of religion.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Interesting that you choose
the word evangelizing.
With that definition I would say you are the head of the BCES (bash-clinton-evangelist-society).
I'm only half stupid
Yes, I am the head of the church ...
of bashing Clinton. We need more converts!
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4I thought
we took care of this one in the philosophy thread?
Remember the word secular is non-religious. Philosophy also discusses ethics (such as utilitarianism), but it is far and away not a religion. Again (for the hundredth time), part does not make a whole.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
only the hundredth
I thought it was more like the thousandth.
I'm only half stupid
Only under your (narrow) meaning of the word
religious.
If you believe that this point refutes my position, then you merely misunderstand my position. I am not claiming that a single belief consititutes a religion, but I AM claiming that the definition of religion does not rely on (or in any way require) the very things that you have been highlighting as missing from my use of the term.
Stop being so narrow minded on this point, broaden your horizons! :-)
The more I dig the closer I get. There are plenty of examples of this. I found this section to be interesting reading
, and particularly this one on Practical Atheism 
It seems there are any number of "sects or orders" under the broader term "atheism". In this sense, atheism is merely an umbrella term similar to "Christianity".
In the section on atheism, religion and morality
it is clearly evident that the atheists fervently put themselves up as a superior alternative to many of the major religions for a whole host of reasons that secular progressives adhere to as articles of faith. I argue that one cannot put yourself up as an alternative to a whole class of things without, at least implicitly, making yourself a member of that class. In this case, the class of things called religions.
Here is a question for you. Do you believe that science forms the best possible basis for making societal decisions?
If you answered yes, I have a follow-on question. Can you prove this to be correct scientifically, or are you merely accepting this as an article of faith?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4I am fairly busy right now
I will be done grading on Tuesday, so I can spend more time discussing these issues with you, but I'm afraid I will be fairly scarce today after this comment and the one below regarding PC. Sorry, but priorities call.
I think you are the one who does not understand my argument regarding part and whole. It is the usual conservative use of inductive logic vs deductive logic. Inductive logic takes a part and tries to generalize, which is what you are doing here (emphasizing only part of the definition and discounting the rest). I am trying to satisfy the entire definition (the whole), then trying to see if atheism/secular humanism is compatible with religion in its entirety (deductive logic). I will return to my space shuttle example. Does a space shuttle have a tire. Yes. Does a car have a tire. Yes. Is a space shuttle and a car? No. There are certain criteria that we have to adequately accomodate in oreder to say they are the same, and they do not match the criteria. They have similar parts, but the whole is not the same. Are they both vehicles. Yes. But they are different. In the same way, atheism is a thought system just as religion is, but they have vital differences which I underlined (showcasing the logical necessity of the and in order to set down the valid criteria for making the case that something is a religion). Atheism does not satisfy the entirety of the 'and' statements. Again part and whole. Inductive and deductive logic. Let's not go through this again, please.
No, science is descriptive (mostly neutral 'whats') not prescriptive (how we should use the what). As Hume said, no 'is' implies an 'ought'. Science is a tool; our values decide how we use the tool.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
Ditto, take your time.
I'll still be around later this week.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Random thoughts on PC.
Specter adheres to the notion that the evolution of language (i.e. the evolution of words, more specifically) plays a significant role in shaping our reality, and I assume likewise influences our individual attitudes and perceptions.
He has also posited the language is intimately intertwined with ideas and concepts, or thoughts if you will.
[Please keep me honest here, Specter, I am operating from memory because I do not want to go track down all of the previous posts on this.]
Given that Political Correctness seeks to utilize social pressure to enforce its precepts and its presumed goal, even under Specter's definition, is to create a better society which is more inclusive and breaks down the barriers created by social power structures, is it not fair to say then that PC is actually a liberal attempt at coercive thought control?
I would argue that it is, obviously. This raises a couple of important questions:
1) Are there any ethical problems associated with trying to control how someone else thinks, even if it is for an admittedly noble purpose?
2) Is there any conflict morally, ethically or along any other dimension with pursuing this type of philosophy while at the same time complaining "don't try to push none of that religion on me?" I mean, does this not amount to essentially the same thing (i.e. pushing one's moral values and beliefs onto someone else)?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4No One
asking you to control your thoughts, just your actions.
It's just good manners, when out in public.
For example:
When you walk down the street and see a nubile young woman, what do you think? Is anyone asking you not to think that (well maybe religon) PC is whether or not you ACT on your thoughts. IN other words, you can mentally undress her but don't rape her on the street. That not PC.
Sitting at a dinner with the Queen of England, enduring a whole series of politically correct protocols, while smiling through gritted teeth, he had only his thoughts to entertain him and stave off the boredom. You see. You can think whatever you want and still be politically correct at the same time.
I'm only half stupid
But this ignores the language
aspects of Specter's rationale for defending PC.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4You can also think
whatever language you care to inside your head.
(Thinks to self...... OMG that is the ugliest baby I have ever seen.) Says to mother holding said child, "My what pretty blue eyes your baby has.
I'm only half stupid
I covered this one
in my diary too. There is no such thing as a neutral language, so the language/words we use now are no less thought-control than the PC versions. The only difference is one creates a society based on merit (personal ability and accomplishments) and one doesn't.
Here is what I say in the original diary about the matter:
(Note to Tlaloc: I'm not trying to open old wounds with you. I would prefer to let bygones be bygones, but I had to address GoRight's point).
It's not like language is objectively neutral now. So why not change an already negatively loaded language to a positively loaded language. Again, this is not for every word in the English language, just those that are negatively loaded: fireman (loaded for gender perception) to firefighter (loaded to the job performance). Easy enough right?
You can use whatever language you want, and you can bear the ethical burden of shutting out large parts of our society. I prefer a language built on inclusiveness and merit, as I think these are the goals of America. Nobody is trying to push anything on you (except maybe the Mormons that knock on your door before noon--did you watch the video yet?). You do not have to use PC language, nor do you have to follow any one's religion. Face the consequences of your decision whether that is a trip to hell or a punch in the nose or fired from your job to dirty looks. Your choice. #2 is also a loaded question since I do not buy your premise that secular humanism is a religion as we already discussed in the philosophy thread.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
Objective neutrality.
The question is not whether the changes you are proposing are good or bad, but whether it is ethical to engage in this type of behavior while complaining about others doing the very same thing.
But since you raised the whole positive/negative meme, what exactly is the absolute (i.e. objectively neutral) scale by which you are making your pronouncements of positive and negative? Remember your moral relativism now, how are we to decide that your view (concerning what is positive and negative) is "right" and your opponent's is "wrong"? Isn't it rather arrogant of you to assert your superiority over others like that?
Oh, really. Throwing people out of schools or firing them from their jobs over using things like the "N" word isn't an attempt to pressure people to follow your [the left's] standards? And isn't your objection to the use of something like the "N" word based fundamentally on a moral position or belief?
You know I could come up with even more examples if I wanted to waste more time on it.
"N" word. Isn't that a funny thing. Does anyone here, including the blacks amongst us, not know exactly the word I mean when I say "the N word". Sorry, I meant no offense.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4n word
"nukular" for nuclear in Bushspeak
......
Since you brought it up, why are you playing the race card.
I'm only half stupid
Where did I call anyone racist?
(In the post above, obviously)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4You didn't
But the mere mention of race, by conservatives is seen as bringing in the race card.
Or haven't you noticed?
Recalling the Harold Ford ad....... IF "the left" even mentioned that the ad was unseemly, conservatives started howling and screeching that "the left" was playing the race card.
No one called anyone racist, yet you bring it up.
I'm only half stupid
Not the same thing.
You call Republicans racists (Harold Ford ad), I complain that you are playing the race card.
You are not playing the race card merely talking about race, only if you are actively calling someone racist.
I didn't (in the post in question), so that is not an example of playing the race card.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4And the circular firing squad begins.
I did not call Republican racists.
I said any mention by the "left" that this ad was unseemly, and the right screeches....... omg the dems are playing the race card.
There you go again. Just making things up and then arguing how you are the king of logic and the master of definitions.
I'm only half stupid
You didn't?
How about in this post
:
Or how about this empassioned plea
where you were describing the things that Republicans had been relying upon in the ad.
Oh, this is a good one
:
None of this was meant to say that the Republicans were racists?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4the definitions of the logical conclusions
of your he said she said whatever you thought that I said was not the dictionary definition according to Webster but in the third century one time the historians decided on clarification but was not apparent, so clearly I am at fault for what you said.
race baiting, racist undertones.
using race for political gain
I did not call Republicans racists. I don't see those exact words attributed to me anywhere, do you?
I'm only half stupid
Who does these things?
Other than racists?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Political strategists
Playing on the white male insecurities.
I'm only half stupid
You are moving the goal posts
but that is fine. I will play along for this round, but then I will be leaving you for the day.
I am basing my criteria here on merit rather than aristocratic privilege in this context (so compatible with moral relativism). If something is inclusive and bases its connotations on merit rather than on privilege from birth (fireman inherently privileges males by default), then I say it is good as it is in-line with our ideals as a nation (all men are created equal--though unfortunately our fore-fathers did not foresee the classification of some people--women and slaves--as equal). That is my basis in evaluating whether it is good or bad. It has nothing to do with personal superiority. To the contrary, the academic use of the word is about tearing down privilege (inherent superiority) and tries to make things based on inclusivity and merit.
I did not say it was consequence-free, nor did I say there wasn't any pressure. I said it was your choice to follow these guidelines of acceptable behavior/language. It is your choice but be prepared to face the consequences. I stated that with my list of consequences that you are free to choose from (including religious consequences) such as going to hell, punch in the nose, getting fired, etc. There are consequences for every action though you are free to choose your own path if you wish. Is it thought control that we are not allowed to murder? That is a prohibition on action, but you are free to choose it if you want. Face the consequences when you are done committing the act though. Same with societal consequences of using terms we agree as a general society carry overly negative connotations, such as the 'n' word. Your choice. As I stated above:
In the above, I meant 'pushing anything on you' as forced, not necessarily as societal pressure. Self-discipline if you will. Nobody can force you to do anything you don't want to do. Your choice. Face the consequences.
Ok, gotta go. Talk to you later. :-)
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
I've always been curious...
..about the demographics of SC. Not that it matters in the least, but I'd think it be interesting to know the racial backgrounds of the group.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
I'm also curious
It would be interesting to know gender and age as well. I'd also like to get a handle on how many "lurkers" we have -- I don't think there's a lot of people reading who don't comment, but I could be wrong.
Maybe I can set up a poll... gimme a sec.
Edit: doesn't seem to be a simple way to do a multiple question poll, but maybe I'm missing something. Any ideas? Ender?
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I am not sure if you can do a multiple question poll...
I think you just have to run multiple polls...
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Or, just update the Roll Call/Misc section..
We could just update profiles in the Roll Call/ misc section.
I'll just put mine here for the curious. I'm a black American, for all intent and purposes. My paternal and maternal great grandmothers were Choctaw, but if I just go back to my parents and (maybe) grandparents, I'm considered "black" for survey purposes.
*Wonders if I'm the only one...* (j/k..or maybe I'm not!)
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Let's put a poll in the open thread for the next few days
I'd like to see (1) age (2) gender (3) race and (4) user type. I would suggest:
(1) Age:
* Under 25
* 25 - 35
* 35 - 45
* Over 45
(2) Gender
* Male
* Female
(3) Race
* Caucasian
* African-American
* Asian
* Hispanic
* Other
(4) User status
* Comment frequently, post diaries
* Comment frequently, no diaries
* Comment occasionally
* Comment rarely
There's plenty more that might be interesting (marital status, income, education) but let's not go crazy. And without being able to associate the answers to each question (probably for the best if we want to preserve privacy) there's only so much we can do with the data anyway, so this is mostly just for fun. Whaddya think?
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
You might quantify...
...frequently/rarely/occasionally for the commenting question.
Maybe call "frequent" posts every other day or more frequently, "occasionally" as more than once a month, and "rarely" as less than once a month?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Sounds good
and I agree with those categories.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
are you going to do it
or you want me to put it up? Just checking so we don't duplicate it at the same time :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Go for it
I might be up kinda late tomorrow :/
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Lurker here
I often read at the end of the day here - today is a rare opportunity as I wait for someone else to do something here at work so I am commenting a bit. Normally the discussion is stale before I see things - and normally missliberties has posted what I would say anyway :-)
:+)
whew! Thanks!
that does my soul good.
I'm only half stupid
Are you going to include
Mutt in the categories? I'm not a heinz 57, like my dogs & cats, but I'm all american not far removed.
Whether the troops should be removed from Iraq.
It started out, back in January, when Senator Boehner said they'd need 90 days to see if a surge was working or not. Then it was "We'll see by August". Now the powers that be (again, on the republican side) are saying that if noting good has happened by September, we'll think of pulling our boys out of Iraq.
So, by my reckoning, the original guide line of April came & went. August is now scratched and September is the "new" decision month. I know the difference is small between April and September for those of you that support our troops being in Iraq right now. What is it, 5 more months? But my point is, do you understand why those among us DON'T support continuing to kick this can down the road? I don't think you do because I never see it articulated. So, I'll tell ya...(just what you want to hear, a liberal telling you ANYTHING)
Seeing if a surge will work or not by a particular date is a misdirection play wrapped within a delay strategy.
It's a misdirection because the date is not material. We liberals do want to see Iraq become peaceful and secure. We don't think the answer is a military one. We think the answer is a diplomatic solution that needs to be ironed out between ALL the factions in Iraq including the Baathist (who we liberals don't particularly like) AND the religious fundamentalists (who are also not dear to liberals leanings). The idea we object to is that the bush43 administration is using our troops like they were toy soldiers. They aren't valuing them for what they are to America and are actively disrespecting them by putting their lives on the line to play out a political game we all see isn't working till the politics in Iraq are settled.
It's also compounded by a mistrust of the bush43 administration, not only by liberals, but by a vast majority of the people in Iraq (and the world for that matter) that they really don't intend to do anything till dubya leaves office. That's bushco's face saving at work. Keep the troops there till January '09, then the successor will take the blame and dubya will not be pegged as a war losing president. You're too late on that account. Most folks have already come to that conclusion. Now we're only waiting to see if the idiots leading the ship crash the ship on the rocks, endangering us all. We can deal with the lack of wind, we just don't want to hit that reef over there.
Does that make it any clearer for some of you?
Pelosi and dem "corruption"
I'm pretty busy at work today but I wanted to point this out:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2007/05/pelosi.php
The GOP has been frantically trying to tar the dems as being as corrupt if not more so. They've had some help from a few genuinely corrupt dems like William Jefforson. Mostly though they have contrived one fake accusation after another.
Our supposedly liberal media has then passed these stories on with no critical evaluation. When the stories turn out false the (again librul) media fails to make any special mention of pelosi/reid/murtha/kerry etc being completely exonnerated.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Has the Dem Queen of Corruption been
indicted yet? Why isn't Dianne Feinstein in jail right next to Cunningham?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Given the extreme politicization of the DoJ...
...by the bush administration it's a good bet that if they could have indicted her they would have.
An additional side note- the various accusations of corruption around Feinstein have almost universally come from progressive publications.
Would that the right practiced any attempt to police their own in such a manner.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Because, despite all your hopes and dreams..
...her conflicts of interest don't add up to a crime.
You need to quit hating success-- you're basically smearing Feinstein because she and her husband are rich and he has his fingers in a lot of pies and has a lot of investments. This amounts to envy of the rich, and I'm surprised at your wholesale embrace of all this class warfare nonsense.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Weird -- Romney's reference to 7yr marriage explained?
Over at ObWi
...
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
yeah I saw that on dkos before
weird, but probably just a confused mistake. I am a big fan of Orson Scott Card and actually some of L. Ron Hubbard's work as well so that kinda makes me like Mitt Romney more.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
quick, check my dkos comment before it's TR'd to death
I compared palestinian suicide bombers and organizations like Hamas to Nazis except without the resources, capability, and manpower to do to jews what Hitler did.
I was TR'd for "trivializing the holocaust" by the 3 of the biggest jew bashers on dkos. Delicious irony.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Link?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Obviously
given your passionate opposition to terrorism and anything that supports it......
I wonder if you feel that buying gas is a neutral act, since some of the money
obviouslly goes to countries whose leaders support the destruction of Israel.
When you buy gas do you assume it's a neutral act that does not support terrorism and therefore evil?
I'm only half stupid
I don't see the comparison, Ender.
The Palestinians are fighting because they have been oppressed by the Israelis. Hitler was never oppressed by the jews. He sought them out to be a scape goat. Israelis are not a scape goat but a legitimate source of many of the problems that the palestinains face (not all certainly).
Seems like two completely different situations. A closer match would be the native american resistance to the spread of the US.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.