Thoughts on the Possibility of a New American Civil War

Promoted by Brendan -- could the political rancor of today actually spawn armed conflict in the future? Are the fault lines across American society deepening to the point of potential civil war? I don't think so, but it's worth examining what lines in the sand we draw as conservatives or liberals.

This diary is an outgrowth of this comment , so some related commentary may be found there. That comment was, in turn, a reply to this open thread topic from Ender:

Is there any doubt that some liberals are overreacting whining babies? Top recommended diary on dkos - Is there any doubt now that it is a coup attempt? . You look at it, and all you can do is shake your head. Is there any doubt that the person who wrote that is a lunatic a bit off? At least we don't get much of that craziness here :)

The text of my original comment is reproduced here as a matter of convenience:

I have been saying for years that I think this country may actually be heading into a civil war some time in the (relatively) near future. I haven't ever put a time frame to it but I wouldn't be surprised if it occurred in my son's lifetime.

I don't have specific reasons to cite as to why. It is just more of a feeling, I guess, based on the observations of the people and the world around me. Based on what I know about the segments of society that I am most familiar with coupled with what I see happening in the world of politics.

Bill Clinton's reign of terror was the wake up call for me. I am sure that Bush 43 is the wake up call for anyone who would be on the other side of the fight. The ever decreasing level of civility in public debate is also a symptom. Look at the conversations between myself and Tlaloc if you doubt me on this point.

In the article that Ender referenced the author mentions that the tide may be turning, that perhaps things will subside. This is not the case. It is true that the balance of power has once again started to swing to the left, but this will only stiffen the resolve of those on the right. This will eventually lead to an even greater backlash of fury and tensions. I don't care who the next Democrat president ends up being, they will be excoriated even worse than Clinton and Bush have been.

I actually believe that the preaching of the "intolerance of intolerance" (as well intentioned as it may be) is a reasonable example (but by no means the only one) of what is driving all of this. As the left continues to demonize the right and to force their beliefs and values onto the right, the people on the right are going to continue to push back for their own beliefs. As the tensions grow eventually something will snap and the civil war will be upon us.

We were seeing the signs of what I am talking about under Clinton. White separatists who just want to be left alone being harassed and having their family members murdered. Religious groups being targeted on trumped up and in some cases falsified charges and eventually being incinerated in their home because they refused to submit to the will of the left. They refused to let the left dictate their beliefs and how they were going to live.

Now, I am not arguing that the beliefs of Randy Weaver or the Branch Davidians or others like them are mainstream or even correct. Whether they are or not is irrelevant to the point of this discussion. What is relevant is that they had they own belief systems and that they were willing to fight to the death for them.

These incidents are only the tip of the ice berg. These groups represent the extremes of the right, and as such they represent the first signs of what is to come if the left continues to try and push their beliefs onto the rest of us.

The people on the right are willing to fight for their rights, if need be, as these examples show. As the tyranny and the oppression sought by the left touches ever more portions of the right we will see more Ruby Ridges and Wacos since the left is willing to fight for their beliefs as well, and as these same examples show.

Look at the resurgence of the militia movements after Waco and Ruby Ridge if you doubt that the right is willing to fight. Obviously the Oklahoma City Bombing was a crime and a tragedy, but even that has ties to the oppression of the left at Waco.

Another American civil war? It is not as far fetched as you might think.

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What's wrong with us?

As the left continues to demonize the right and to force their beliefs and values onto the right, the people on the right are going to continue to push back for their own beliefs. As the tensions grow eventually something will snap and the civil war will be upon us.

I understand this concern, and I understand what GoRight means by choosing Waco/Ruby Ridge as examples, but I fail to understand how or why that immediately translates into the average person's view of politics.

Why do people take things so personally? Let's look at the situation for those two events. Very few among us actually do or desire to live the separatist lifestyle. Very few can realistically ever see themselves in this position, facing the government's force. So why does what happened get taken so to heart?

I'll be fair and pick on the other side too. So far, Padilla and maybe one other US citizen have been detained and denied their habeus corpus rights. Very few of us can realistically ever expect to be in their shoes. So again, why does what happened get taken so to heart?

Why do we insist on seeing events such as these in terms of absolutes? Why are we fighting for ideals instead of for each other?

GoRight is unusually forthright in this comment (gold star!) and I think the liberals are foolish to ignore what he's saying. Because he's saying the same thing you are. Except he adds the logical outcome: if we cannot agree to give and take, if we insist on "my way or the highway" that is exactly what we will get: civil war.

Part of the perils of a democracy is that people get to choose the rules they live under. And sometimes people make what seems like stupid choices. But people expect to have a say so and not to be overruled by an ideal.

For example, we can beat the Christmas topic to death and say "but it's the law!" only so many times before the underlying human needs and desire for expression and participation get trampled into hatred. What is so awful about a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn that is worth treating your fellow citizens this way?

Another example: We can certainly say that it is necessary to eavesdrop on personal communications in a time of war. But to do so without recognizing the revulsion this idea creates ignores a basic need of most of our citizens: to know that their privacy is not being unnecessarily invaded by their government. But instead of handling their concerns as valid and desirable in a free populace, they are reviled as traitors and terrorist sympathizers.

I may not be expressing this very well. But what we are doing to each other is not good.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Good points all

From bitter "Jesusland" jokes to ill-conceived accusations of treason, there's a gulf opening that doesn't seem to be justified by actual events.

Two primary reasons, I think: (1) People online tend to be more passionate -- if someone doesn't care about politics, they're not gonna join a blog to discuss how much they don't care. (2) In the information age it's a lot easier to track every little thing, so outrages that used to pass with minimal comment are now echoed and amplified across the blogs, talk radio, and TV.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Blogs amplify us

I agree that blogs tend to amplify. And I agree that people online are passionate. But I'm stealing GoRight's words for the rest, because he's a Republican (and I am not) and said it well

[D]o you believe that a half-hearted interest in politics equates to a half-hearted conviction to your personal beliefs? I do not.

Clinton and Bush are figure heads. Most people don't really care who the figure head is. That does not mean that they don't have deeply held beliefs and convictions which they are willing to fight and die for

And it's their game too. What I heard GoRight say above was that he sees these hints of feelings about civil war in life, not just in the tubes.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Agreed. n/t

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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There is no point on thinking

There is no point on thinking that an American Civil War might explode anytime. I don't think that the problems USA is dealing with lately can have such a big influence on the sense of peace that characterizes the atmosphere of a country.

________

PEO

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Welcome, JoeAnne

New faces are always welcome.

We look forward to more contributions from you.

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Not happening.

Another American civil war? It is not as far fetched as you might think.

A civil war seem extremely unlikely. The vast majority of the populous just doesn't care.

Even an amicable dissolution of the US into two or more nations (a far less drastic step than civil war) is extremely unlikely.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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You might want to review your American History ...

during the period April, 1861 through April 1865.

Even an amicable dissolution of the US into two or more nations (a far less drastic step than civil war) is extremely unlikely.

Been there. Done that. So I agree, not gonna happen.

A civil war seem extremely unlikely. The vast majority of the populous just doesn't care.

Maybe people on your side don't care, but I assure you that there are a lot on my side that care enough to fight and die if pressed into doing so.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Hmmm

if pressed into doing so.

There is no agreed upon "danger" level of pressure, is there? I would guess that each side would define it differently. And that each side would react differently. Maybe the reaction on the left would never reach the "fight and die" level regardless of provocation.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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:-)

I don't think that there is any "prescribed" thing to look for. It is intangible and defined on a personal level. On a societal level it is defined as "when enough people are fed up enough with the state of things that they just aren't going to accept it any longer". That would be true of either side.

I do suspect that the devolution into a civil war will occur as a sort of precipitating effect. One side or the other will reach a "critical mass" and will start either rebelling against the system or trying to impose martial law and this will inevitably draw others into the fight on an exponentially increasing basis.

Things will likely seem fine on the surface, but once actual fighting breaks out things will escalate quickly, IMHO.

[ Not that I am not advocating for any of this, merely relaying my thoughts on potential future events. ]

I would think that my perspective here would resonate with Texans, in general. Maybe not in the center of Houston but definitely in the smaller cities and rural areas. Any observations to that effect on your part to share?

I am in no way claiming some sort of organized plot on either side. It won't work that way, at least not before things have already started to spiral out of control.

Maybe I am wrong, and I actually hope that I am, but this is just my sense of things, offered as a means of helping you to understand alternative viewpoints on the matter.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Listening

I've heard the same hints from frustrated Republicans -- not just in Texas either. Not widespread, not overt, not strong -- more like the whiff of a potential. It made me stop and re-evaluate a few of my assumptions.

Would it happen? I seriously doubt it. I don't think that we'd ever let it get to that point, and there is a certain amount of interia in a country our size working in favor of the status quo. (And if I'm right about global climate change and peak oil, we'll have something more pressing to worry about in a couple of decades anyway ;} ).

What's important is that we try to grasp the differing depth of feeling over a given issue and quit brushing each other off on important matters. It only encourages more of the "we won so screw you" attitude we got with this Administration. Does that mean one side might have to feel that they are having to be a bit more accomodating than the other? Probably. But so what?

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Oh, there you go ...

being all reasonable and grounded and such. :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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If I may

say something....... here...... somewhat provacative.

There are a lot of people on your side that are willing to fight and die, if pressed?

And prey tell what ever would provoke such a thing. If pressed..... who is going to press you?

I mean there are other people in this world, willing to fight and die for a cause they believe in and we call them terrorists. Shadowy groups that operate outside the law.

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Pressed, in this context and in my opinion

refers to the ever increasing application of social and legal pressures to force both the religious and the non-religious right to conform to Liberal ideologies.

[ And by that I don't mean arguing over tax codes, but rather things like gun laws, laws infringing on speech (even if they are well intentioned), demonization of christianity and religion in general, the maginalization of the right as Tlaloc advocates with his Star Chamber of Truth, demanding that our tax dollars be used to fund things like abortions which we consider the equivalent of murder while at the same time denying us the right to use those same dollars to educate our children as we see fit, seeking to strike any references to christian symbols while encouraging tolerance of other religious symbols and customs, etc. ]

I mean there are other people in this world, willing to fight and die for a cause they believe in and we call them terrorists. Shadowy groups that operate outside the law.

Sure, go ahead with the accusations and jokes. I don't care. But this too is an example of what I mean. Feel free to keep turning up the pressure.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Fascinating how the right

wants to force their "moralistic" agenda on the country.....

....yet if someone criticizes their positions it's liberal tyranny and racheting up the pressure.

And the threat is push me and I WILL use force. What BS.

Like a child having a temper tantrum in the middle of the grocery store.

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Be nice.

This wasn't an attack piece.

I was just telling you how I felt and how I think many on my side feel. That's why I felt no need to defend any of this in the first place. I am entitled to, and do not have to justify, how I feel about something.

Neither do you.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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The problem is that the fight has till now been pretty one sided

The right wing has had an easy time to advance its cause for most of my sixty years.

There was a time when there were people who thought that since so many axioms of history (majority of plants/animals coming from stuff like mud etc., instead of other plants/animals., 6000 year old flat earth as center of the universe, stars as pinholes into heaven, and so on) were literally unbelievable, that many of the corollaries to those axioms would (and should ) wither and blow away, except as mythological curiosities.

Quite contrary to expectations anti-intellectualism on both the left and right exploded. As could now be predicted, the low-RWA left made like a herd of cats and wandered off in dozens of directions, a very few became political activists, and quite a few more included that eventually, but not as a priority, and after Viet Nam/Watergate was over went back to being politically secular.

The Right, being high RWA, became much more focused, and set out on a fifty year plan (at the SDO RWA double high leadership levels) to conquer the world.

I saw those discussions, in a paper a right wing friend subscribed to called the Spotlight. I did not know where its connections were then, or believed that any but ridiculous fringe elements would ever be attracted by it.

Like a herd of animals who cannot realize at first that they are being shot, leader after leader was assassinated either literally or by poison pen swiftboating, and the Media went through a series of buyouts that also left them in hands that proved to be members of the same emerging Gang Of Pirates.

The Communist epithet had already wiped out the socially left leaning public speakers, but the "Liberal Bias" epithet I had chortled over when I first saw it in the Spotlight was used as an excuse to wipe out even Centrist speakers. By 1980 even those were almost gone, except at the very fringes. Still the herd did not wake up to what was happening to it.

Then along came Bill Clinton. The 1990 census provided an excellent opportunity for Gerrymandering, Democrats still had the majority power, but a massive campaign to tell Blacks that their vote was being diced up and they should insist on their own single race districts, it made all the surrounding districts lean right while their own district became near 100% Democrat. It was this, more than persuasion that made the next Congress majority Republican.

If they had just let Clinton be, they had to votes to only let his Corporatist stuff through, the herd would never have awakened. But swiftboating has worked so well in the past, they had to haul it out and increase the firepower yet again, and that began to wake up the herd.

Still there was a group with no organization facing one with 50 years of tight organizing, and was hard wired to be better at it in the first place, so the Democrats continued to fumble around badly.

Meanwhile the magic of Gerrymandering was paying off and putting Republicans in charge of voting in key states.
The vote theft would have gone off without a hitch without one really obvious move in Volusia County, and the now awakened Democrats

They were way to disorganized to stop it then, and it was not till the internet reached a critical mass, three years later, that they even believed it happened, but it was only then that they started learning and acting at all.

The GOP, who had not had serious opposition in years, has taken those beginnings and hyped them like a few guys in a cave were suddenly bigger than the combined might of a supposedly working in tandem Soviet Union and China.

Suddenly one voice in the wilderness was hyped to be overburdening to masses of centrally positioned Choruses.
And with each hype the herd is becoming more alarmed, and with the internet, what one knows they all are beginning to know, but their leadership is still sleepwalking, and there is no liberal counterpart to the massive planning for civil war on the right.

Among the scarier bits.
http://www.alternet.org/story/21372/
Secret Society- along with several such organizations on the right there is no such group on the left.

http://www.blackwaterbook.org/ and
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=8992128
again it alarms the right that the left has noticed them but they only notice, while the right actually does them and the left unilaterally disarms.

http://yuricareport.com/Dominionism/OutingCreepingDominionism.html#ancho...
Outing Creeping Dominionism once there was much more open discussion of the intent to kill anyone who was not a part of their tribe, now those have been removed.

there is a lot more

So yes there is likely to be a Civil War but it will not be a long planned attack from the left, but more a last minute resistance to premeditated slaughter.

The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.

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unrealistic

Maybe people on your side don't care, but I assure you that there are a lot on my side that care enough to fight and die if pressed into doing so.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "a lot." If you mean "most of the commentors on political blogs" then sure. If you mean "more than 2-3% of the population" then no.

The vast majority of Americans care far more about the next American Idol than they do about this huge red-blue gulf.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Believe what you want. n/t

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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I believe you are incorrect.

I believe you are incorrect. I have heard such discussions openly in the grocery store.

People are waking up and they don't like what they are seeing, and it is going to increase over time.

Yes civil war is a possibility, even a likelihood as we continue to polarize politically and our government institutions appear to fail and we lose faith in them; the ability for the more impassioned of each of the camps to come together in an open forum and say to the other: "Yo' Momma." in every increasing tempo will be the key.

Because those people will win others less impassioned to their side through their rhetoric.

I disagree with goright on a vast gulf of things, but on this I agree.

At some point not to far off the odds favor however slightly that the current virtual world flamewars will blossom into an all to real and ugly real world flamewar.

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Terrorists

"Maybe people on your side don't care, but I assure you that there are a lot on my side that care enough to fight and die if pressed into doing so."

So you are saying Republicans are more willing to kill Americans for political reasons than Democrats? I hesitate to link that party to another group that wants to kill Americans for political reason, but what is the difference between common terrorists and any others who would forego the ballot box for a rifle (or suicide belt, etc.)?

"War is politics by other means", after all, is the creed of the terrorist.

Socialisme ou Barbarie!

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Not at all.

So you are saying Republicans are more willing to kill Americans for political reasons than Democrats?

You straw man is showing.

What I am saying is, precisely what I said:

Maybe people on your side don't care, but I assure you that there are a lot on my side that care enough to fight and die if pressed into doing so.

There is no lawyer like "in other wordsing" today. The words that I used are unique in the English language and there is no combination of "other words" which accurately reflect what I meant.

What I am saying is that I cannot speak to what they people on your side of the aisle care about, since they represent a sort of enigma with respect to the normal logic used within society. Hence my use of the word "maybe" in reference to your side. I am merely asserting that you shouldn't discount our willingness to stand up for what what we believe just because you may observe a lack of willingness on your side to do so.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Unforutnaly for the sake of liberty your correct for now




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<![endif]--><!--[if !mso]> <![endif]--> Thou with the coming depression that may change, partially if the message gets out Obama's policies are largely responsible for our inability to recover.

Un-forutnaly you are right in that our population has lost its virtue and has suffered over the past 100 years or more a general dissolution of principles like liberty as incidentals like Wako demonstrate.  We as a people have become complacent in failing to recognize the significant of the usurpation of the liberty and self-detraction of some inherently endangers the liberty of us all.

We say it’s them, but we have forgotten that them today could be us tomorrow. For the ideology that forgets to respect the liberty and self-determination of others, is not in its nature bound to any specific others.

It rather seeks to rule all, to see to it that all follow it’s ideals and way of life to the exclusion of their own.

 

Our manners are no longer that of a free people, but rather one that has become complacent to the actions and judgment dictates of the State.

Many of us feel that it is our responsibility to protect others from themselves, but in doing so fail or realizes that such protection is in the most fundamental form, a usurpation of others rights to self-determination.

 

I believe as Samuel Adam’s said:

"A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader." - Samuel Adams, 1779

 

 

I believed for other reasons that our country is eventually and inevitably headed for either dictatorship or civil war.

I believe this fundamentally started because of our relatively compliancy we made the mistake of fundamentally altering and abolishing  key checks in our constitutional system.

Specifically in 1913 with the 16th and 17th amendments. 

 

The 16rh gave unlimited taxing power to the federal government, removing the original restriction that taxies must be waged in proportion to the States population. This is not so accidently the same proportion in which power to spend, (house of reps) is held in the federal government.

 

The 17th amendment was even more serous for State’s rights, in that it removed the election of the senate from the Body of the state which holds the most vital interest in preserving state power.(the state legislator).  As a result the Senate like the house became a mob elected legislator that is generally random in its goal.

With the loss of the senate power interest, the states lost the ability to protect their rights and power in the process of ratifying/approving all Judges, officers, Treaties, and laws, made by the federal government that may have served to usurp States rights.

 

It’s not a coincident that we have had a lot of such striping states rights in theses areas since the U.S. Senate begin acting like the house in general motivation, rather than as the body the founding fathers made it to be in checking federal power.

 

Of course having the ability to ignore the constitution and abuse power does not necessarily mean one will, at least not at first, but eventual slowly but surely they are going to find ways to uses it.

And the biggest users of this so far started 19 years later with FDR. FDR like hittlers power of speech mesmerized the mob, and that in turn gave him super majorities in both the house and senate.  Because remember the senate is now elected by the mob not by the State power holding state legislator.

FDR used this power to implement his new deal, and when the Supreme court ruled theses laws trying to control internal state economic activity and liberty(at the expense of the state controlling itself) unconstitutional.  FDR used his very legitimate control of both houses of congress including most importantly the senate. To propose a plan to pack the court with his own cronies. 

 

In response as you all know the court had “the switch to save the 9”, the court suddenly reversed it self under blackmail made possible only because FDR controlled the house and most importantly the senate meaning he could practically do what he said, overthrowing the court into being his menus.

 

As a general rule our Constitution formally died that day, the U.S. Supreme Court wouldn’t over rule anther act of congress expanding federal power until the early 1990’s.

 

But in that time you have had nearly equally as vast expansions of federal power, under JFK, LBJ, even Nixon with his war on drugs, carter, ect..

We for all practical proposes ceased to be a Constitutional republic(government of laws) and became something very much more like that of a pure democracy.

 

And we have and continue to live out exactly what John Adams and other founding fathers said about the inevitable fate of democracies:

 

“Suppose a nation, rich and poor, high and low, ten millions in number, all assembled together; not more than one or two millions will have lands, houses, or any personal property; if we take into the account the women and children, or even if we leave them out of the question, a great majority of every nation is wholly destitute of property, except a small quantity of clothes, and a few trifles of other movables. Would Mr. Nedham be responsible that, if all were to be decided by a vote of the majority, the eight or nine millions who have no property, would not think of usurping over the rights of the one or two millions who have? Property is surely a right of mankind as really as liberty. Perhaps, at first, prejudice, habit, shame or fear, principle or religion, would restrain the poor from attacking the rich, and the idle from usurping on the industrious; but the time would not be long before courage and enterprise would come, and pretexts be invented by degrees, to countenance the majority in dividing all the property among them, or at least, in sharing it equally with its present possessors. Debts would be abolished first; taxes laid heavy on the rich, and not at all on the others; and at last a downright equal division of every thing be demanded, and voted. What would be the consequence of this? The idle, the vicious, the intemperate, would rush into the utmost extravagance of debauchery, sell and spend all their share, and then demand a new division of those who purchased from them. The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If “Thou shalt not covet,” and “Thou shalt not steal,” were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.” – John Adams, A Defense of the American Constitutions, 1787

Source Link:  http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=2104&chapter=159889&layout=html&Itemid=27


I feel that Tyranny and ultimately dictatorship to maintain the nearly inequitable model, is inevitable at this point unless men learn from history and somehow reverse it.

An act that as many before have demonstrated will likely lead to inner conflict as the exploiting mob is not likely to want their easy money at the expense (Slavery) of other to stop coming.  That there is where a Civil war may be necessary to liberate ourselves from this tyranny.

 

The choice is ours as it will continue to be our children’s and their children’s should we do nothing or fail to restore our liberty.

For I believe as that freedom and self-determination are innate drives in human nature from each humans point of view of course.

I believe as John Adams said:

“If men through fear, fraud or mistake, should in terms renounce and give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the great end of society, would absolutely vacate such renunciation; the right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of Man to alienate this gift, and voluntarily become a slave.” - John Adams, Rights of the Colonists, 1772

 

I believed that one day our <!--[if gte mso 9]> Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->descendents will again be free, to manage their own life’s with out big government trying to manage and dictate how they live it to them.

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Awesome...Thanks!

Please...stick around!

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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People have their bread and circus and quasi civil war

First World countries have not had a civil war in quite some time.
The closest things to a First World civil war has been the Chinese Civil War, the October Revolution, and the Spanish Civil War. Two were communist lead, the other lead was a military coup. There have been other coups, but none have been done to give the people more rights.
I don't see the militia crowd being all too pleased with a military coup. But I don't see a military coup in time in the future, much less a people's rebellion of any sort.
Relatively noncorrupt democracies have a built in enemy that is fought every 2 years. A placebo for a real civil war until Lincoln becomes stubborn and would rather spend more money to go to war than use eminent domain.

The economy will have to continue to worsen far and away more before people start an uprising to end no knock warrants and the federal incoming tax that generally benefits those in most need of money and cancels out the effects of the payroll tax and other federal taxes for the poor.
The direct election of Senators affects state's rights only in that the senators now pander to the people instead of pandering to the people that the people elected. State Reps would just have one more campaign issue to run on under the old system. Unless they find a way to put true cronies in the Senate, state's rights issues will stay the same.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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personally

I do not get any feeling at all that something like this might be on the horizon. I think there is enough balance in our country to bounce back or block the worst excesses of the Left (and the Right).

But I do think we've been on the Leftward path since FDR and subsequently since 1970-80s when we lurched too far to overcompensate for discrimination of the past and the Left took advantage of that to further their agenda of greater Social control.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Wrong headed

It is not about greater social control...... it is about social justice and living in a civil society.

………… parent

And you advocate this ...

living in a civil society

by promoting an uncivil one through mechanisms such as PC? PC is by it very design uncivil because it seeks to use social pressure as a means to coerce a certain pattern of thought (i.e. a liberal one).

It is inherently about telling people what they are allowed to think and NOT about be accepting of what they think on their own. To me, the latter is an example of a civil society.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Well

You are being a martyr and a bad sport.

That's what I see.

You don't want to play by the rules. Fine. Break em.

But you might get thrown out of the game.

IN which case you say you are coming back armed. That is being even a worse sport.

………… parent

Nobody has to worry about my coming back armed.

But show up at my door with the intent to infringe on my rights, then you should be worried.

I don't understand your point about my being a bad sport and not wanting to play by the rules of the game. Please explain more.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

You don't have to

worry about anyone showing up on your door step tell you what to think either.

No one is taking away your freedom of thought. And here you are creating a war over it, egging and prodding for a fight and tyranically saying everyone just absolutely MUST agree with your else.

Like a child in a grocery store who has heard from the drive by media that starburst is the key to salvation so they can get your mother to give them some money.

Mom says no. Little GoRight says but I want my candy. And you can't make me not want it. I will think all day about how much I want that candy. Mommy is the thought police. You are a bad sport by throwing a violent temper tantrum in the middle of the grocery store crying foul of the powers that be, or a very bad sport.

You grow up hating Bill Clinton cause he got candy when he was little and still has good teeth. You have a closet full of candy but are not satisfied. You horde your candy. It is never enough and you will have your civil war or a temper tantrum like a spoiled child in the grocery store.

………… parent

Civility

So, the PC promoted by the right is different than the PC promoted by the left? I though both versions were equally as absurd and ineffectual.

Socialisme ou Barbarie!

………… parent

I agree with the first part

I don't believe it is as dire as GoRight says. However, I do understand the sentiment. It certainly does seem from my observations that the divide between the two sides is wider than ever. As passionate as GoRight is about his issues and feeling as if liberals are trying to oppress him - well, I have felt that same passion and fear and anger about the right trying to oppress me, so I get it. I know I would feel a need to become even more active in protests if Roe is overturned.

Sometimes though, while I am able to see their side, I feel very strongly that they are unable to see that they do things that would make ME feel as if they are forcing their religion on me, oppressing me or threatening me.

But, take to the streets in violence? Heck no. I am not going to have a sig line advocating the shooting of Republicans (like the RedState user who asks when he can shoot the Democrats). Perhaps it is the nature of the extreme right to react with violence or threats more quickly?

That may have been too rambling - but I think the point is that I can get what GoRight is saying, though not to his extreme.

………… parent

and the right doesn't wish social control?

ermmmm m'kay.

The entire right to life movement is about social control and not being able to let somebody live their life according to the compass of their own judgment and beliefs.

The entire gay marriage debacle is about imposing a certain societal view...

The right is ALL about social control! That is their entire reason for being, as can be proved by a simple examination of the wedge issues they have used in the last few elections to get out the vote!

………… parent

Hyperbole.

The entire right to life movement is about social control and not being
able to let somebody live their life according to the compass of their
own judgment and beliefs.

This may be true of some factions within the right to life movement, but certainly not all. I have been arguing the right to life side from a human rights perspective with an eye towards protecting the human rights of the unborn and seeking an objective and scientifically based definition of when those right begin rather than the current arbitrary notion of birth.

The entire gay marriage debacle is about imposing a certain societal view...

Almost all legislation is about imposing a certain societal view. This is neither an left or a right phenomenon. Legislation is the place where we, as a society, note down for all to see those things that we deem, as society, to be the norms we wish to follow. If society thus determines as part of the legislative process that marriage is between a man and a woman, well that is society as a whole speaking through their chosen process, is it not?

The right is ALL about social control! That is their entire reason for
being, as can be proved by a simple examination of the wedge issues
they have used in the last few elections to get out the vote!

Perhaps, but the left is no better een though they like to pretend that they are.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

skbox

Totally agree.

And good to see another poster on the forum with common sense!

………… parent

The rest of my comment

from here :

What a civil war requires, really, is not just an ideological set of differences. Civil wars are geographical, ethnic, and occasionally religious. We don't have the first two (the red state/blue state divide is a fantasy), and I'd never argue that our ideological differences amount to a level of religious fervor. Tim McVeigh may be willing to die for white supremacy, but I can't imagine many on the Right willing to die for social security privatization. You can flip it on the Left, as well: I don't see anyone willing to take indignation at the current administration to the point of violence, and those who do are justifiably marginalized.

Honestly, and you may all disagree with me on this, but I see this as another case of crying-doomsday. As I posted on the previous thread, our political rhetoric is no more acidic than it ever was, our ideological divides are no more pronounced, and if there's any tangible difference it's in the nature and flow of information. The irony is that the political debate seems more intense nowadays only because we had a brief respite in public airways due to the Fairness Act, which prevented anger from bubbling over into a boil.

Likewise with the types of violence that GoRight lists as "canaries" in this proverbial coal mine. I'm sorry, but American history is littered with this kind of violence, and with one exception, it never turns into a civil war. Why that one exception? Because the opposing players were state governments - i.e. players who could escalate things to the point of war.

Otherwise, these canaries always fly away. Whether it's homeowners shooting at the TVA for building dams that destroyed their homes, or riots in Los Angeles over deep-seated racial divides, or the massacre at Matewan, we've been through it before, and often much, much worse. There's nothing new to see here that hasn't been here before.

We're protected by a number of things:

1. General public apathy
2. An ideological divide that doesn't extend into everyday quality of life
3. Lack of pronounced geographical, ethnic, or religious differences

All sound, no fury.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

…………

Nicely done, yet again!

Does cynicism fit in there somewhere? I suppose cynicism creates apathy.

………… parent

How about

# 0. Being indebted up to their ears and not willing to risk losing their jobs and everything they own once they start shooting full time.

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

That all works well and good till you are faced with ruin

The chances of someone coming to GoRights door and telling him what he can think, particularly to think anything liberal is nil. There is no Liberal of any stripe who would do that.

However, if a policeman pulls you over, and you or even a friend says the wrong thing or causes a problem things can go downhill very fast, suddenly Kafka looks like an optimist.

If you find yourself trying to protest or fight against the latest outrage, it can get just as dicey. Maybe not as bad yet as if it really comes to more, but all the laws (and the lack of them) are in place.

In Germany under the Nazis people were inconvenienced very little, and most saw a good uptick in their standard of living at least for a while, it was only the odd eliminationist target, as well as those who tried to oppose them, and a few that just got in the wrong place at the wrong time had real problems. Of course those folk had pretty severe problems, but few heard the real story, or believed it when they did.

When Pol Pot took over I am sure your attitude was the majority of attitudes... at first. Here of course there was a sudden change that affected everyone, but by the time it was put into effect there was nobody to stop it, and anyone who even slightly resisted was killed.

I don't think the American experience will match those. The re is enough folk on the American Right who would be unpredictable in the face of open thuggishness to keep them from it (as indeed it kept Nixon then), but if they could whip up hysteria, like the Waco incident, or even a Terri Schievo incident, we could very quickly become Iraq.

Even now in Iraq the vast majority is just trying to get by, it is only a few percent who are fighting on any side, but it doesn't much matter. Eric Prince has a lot more firepower than Muqtada al Sadr and is busy building funding and known loyalty on our tax dime, and a greater eliminationist agenda.

If a Schievo, or Roy Moore type incident was blown up to be a liberal attack on humanity and religion even if the first strike is from the right, Blackwater could insist on "defending" the incident and things get very out of hand very fast.

A massive round up of Latinos accused as Illegals trying to "throw" the election to the Democrats, would also set off a spark. There are those who are saying that that is what the prosecutor story is really about, with only GOP Partisans ( honest conservatives having been purged) in the many UA spots around the country, could assure that such a partisan attack on the country is possible.

The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.

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Pico.. god love you but I think you are missing the boat a bit

It doesn't have to be on the same scope or scale as the war between the states...

Because what is going on in Iraq IS a civil war and it is not of the same character. It can just be a generalized level of politically or religiously motivated violence.

I will make a horrible admission here:

There are some key issues that I will KILL over. And oddly enough one of them is religion, though I am not all that religious! I can not stomach the rights heresy on the ensoulment of human life and I would not wish to be made through State sponsored coercion to conform to their religiously motivated beliefs on when Human life begins, that I find to be heretical in the extreme.

I also have extreme issues with their apparent desire to build a big brother state.

And their desire to turn a segment of the population into second class citizens by their denial or marriage rights...

It is not outside the realms of my ability to imagine actually having to take up arms to protect the nation that I love against the advancement of the dark stain that is repressive conservatism.

………… parent

Paranoia will destroy ya

I might've believed this in the mid '90s when the militias were in their heyday, but I don't think things are at a level of violence yet/anymore.

The dems have too much hope in the system to correct itself and the right lacks cohesiveness. Both sides lack numbers. Only 30% of the population considers itself democrats and the numbers are slightly less for republicans, which makes 40%+ somewhere in the middle or other. Out of this 60% (for both parties), maybe 1 to 5% would actually pick up arms to fight for an ideological battle.

Racism is not a valiant cause for enough people. Maybe guns and maybe abortion, but I still think those are doubtful to reach a stage of outright war.

Sorry, but I find this discussion ridiculous. Most people could care less about Waco or the PATRIOT Act. War? Nope.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

…………

I think you're missing the point

*Sigh* Why do liberals think that Republicans think like they do?

This is not about whether or not a civil war will happen. I think we all agree that it's highly unlikely. That's not the point.

Can you [generic you, not just you specifically] not see that, rightly or wrongly, some Republicans are fed up? Liberals may not agree that they have reason to be and may discount every reason offered, but they are fed up nonetheless.

Missliberties analogy is right, in a way, but leaves out the real issue: It's your child who's throwing the tantrum, a child you have to live with.

Unless you plan on being as ruthless as the Right.

People who believe they have no voice in their government are dangerous. You can either attempt to change that belief, or you can belittle it.

[Edit: Welcome back, BTW. I was missing your voice.]

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Wha????

*sigh* The whole point was NOT missed as the title for GoRights little rant was "the coming civil war. What part of that did I not understand?

If the title were how super frustrated Republicans are then the discussion would have been much different.

What makes you think that Republicans have a corner on the market for being "fed up"? They don't.

Of course Republicans are fed up. They don't even have a viable candidate for President. And the ones they do have try to out-cave man each other with responses to fear mongering questions, like lets double the size of Gitmo.

If you want to talk about frustration of the voiceless fine.

But allowing said frustration to lead to talk of promoting violence...... well, maybe we should spend some government funds on mental health....... as it would benefit the safety of our society as a whole.( Is Republican mental health a national security issue?)

Frustrated men with guns having temper tantrums is dangerous!

I fully agree with Specter that this whole topic is ridiculous.

I do see how it goes to a level of frustration. But the premise of "poor me", I can't say what I want, is absolutely and completely ludicrous.

The right is turning the PC debate into something out of control in suggesting that it is "thought control".

PC is just good manners, and being respectful in PUBLIC, period.
Nothing more or less.

………… parent

There, I changed the title to better reflect

the intent.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

:-) Okay then!

But will the inside commentary still make sense......

(Oh yeah and good morning to ya!)

………… parent

I just can't figure you out.

Sometimes you're nice, sometimes you're mean. What gives?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Well

I am a redneck liberal.

Call me complicated, or call me crazy. You are free to chose.

They talk about the old days when Congress would argue tooth and nail all day long, and at the end of the day, put it aside and both sides would go out for drinks and were friends.

Arguing ideas does not have to be personal.

What I highly resent is that imho, Republicans in the past few years have turned politics into personal destruction machine, on purpose for pure political gain, as if we all aren't human. As if being mildly to the left of center is a crime, and akin to being an enemy of the state. For example the sheer force of hatred exhibited by Tom Delay, towards other human beings that disagreed with him, was over the top.

IN the end we are all human, and bleed red, in spite of our differences.

Politics is looking for the art of what we have in common. IMHO Republicans have turned it into a blood sport. Your civil war scenario is a perfect example.

………… parent

Ok, so

I'll put you in the "yes dammit I will be as ruthless as the Right because I don't care how they feel" camp. Fair enough.

But it's interesting that we just had a discussion on responsibility to community -- Is it a fair interpretation to say that ridiculous and misguided Republicans aren't part of your community?

Democracy. It's so messy.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

………… parent

Maybe this is just an INTJ thing.

Only masterminds "get it"! :-)

[This is a joke]

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Are you trying

to make up for your very ungallant comment? Throwing me to the wolves like that. . . when I'm debating your side's side, too.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

………… parent

No, I am sorry.

I never meant to throw you to the wolves. I appreciate your support (for considering this something worth exploring).

To what are you referring? This?

I only turned this into a diary because PurpleFace and a few others wanted to discuss it further.

I never meant this as a throw anyone to the wolves type of comment. It was more of a "I'm not saying this is an absolute certainty and I want to be really pushy about it by writing a diary" comment.

I sincerely apologize for any misunderstanding.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

It was a gentle jibe, no more :}

I'm just feeling playful this morning. Yes that's what I was referring to, but no, I'm not really bothered.

If they want me to hush, they can say so, or just point out where I'm completely off track. Sometimes I try to explain things from my POV (in the middle) and end up not even making sense to myself.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

………… parent

I think you are overreacting a wee bit.

Yet I am happy to see your passion.

We are talking about ideas.

I don't care how they Republicans feel? Where is this coming from. I don't like some of their ideas which I think are wrong headed, intolerant and selfish, and I choose to ruthlessly disagree with some of their ideas. I am not going to shoot them for it.

I am fiercely opposed to bloody violence as a solution to problems. I see that position as being socially responsible.

I am not opposed to a fair fight which I think is healthy and normal. The key is "fair".

This subterfuge of twisted logic, that GoRight says he is not free to think his own thoughts because of basically peer pressure is way off the mark, imho.

Is it not common knowledge that this fake PC issue is supported by the religous right, who wants to be able to inject ONE religon as the moral standard to improve public institutions with little things like supporting abstinence only in public health clinics, for example.

Don't you care about how the "left" feels? Or is it only fair for the right to be frustrated. I don't get your first statement.

Yes I think liberals should stand their ground firmly, and fiercely and I don't consider that ruthless. IN fact we haven't done it enough.... always eager to play nice, and being taken advantage of.

I really don't get what you are saying. Except it seems like a double standard, when I can ask you the same question. Why don't you care about how I feel.

………… parent

LOL

This subterfuge of twisted logic, that GoRight says he is not free to think his own thoughts because of basically peer pressure is way off the mark, imho.

There you go with the peer pressure again. Subterfuge. Isn't that sort of negative sounding? Doesn't that just conjure up the idea that I am evil and mean and nasty, trying to subvert all that is right and good?

What is this attempt at demeaning me or shaming me or whatever supposed to accomplish? Make me see the light of your truth and thereby change the way I think? Or, if not me, perhaps influence others to see things your way?

Please enlighten me as to your intent here.

Is it not common knowledge that this fake PC issue is supported by the religious right, who wants to be able to inject ONE religion as the moral standard to improve public institutions with little things like supporting abstinence only in public health clinics, for example.

This is laughable.

First, I don't believe that there is any such agenda on the right, mush less that it is somehow "common knowledge" except perhaps among the paranoid among the left.

Second, even if this WERE true how would this be any different than YOU wanting to inject YOUR moral standard for the same reasons, because that is, in effect, what the Left has been doing for years. Again, the Left seeks to use the rule of law as an implement of oppression (of those they disagree with, i.e. the right).

Yes I think liberals should stand their ground firmly, and fiercely and I don't consider that ruthless. IN fact we haven't done it enough.... always eager to play nice, and being taken advantage of.

Gee, one might consider you to be angry and full of passionate conviction. Where have I heard THAT before. So, as more and more people on the left adopt this position of unwavering indignation do you think that will have a tendency to increase or decrease the tensions between the left and the right? Is this attitude of "no compromise" which is evident on both sides of the aisle likely to increase or decrease the likelihood of things coming to "blows" in the form of a Civil War?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Sorry am not buying it.

There you go with the peer pressure again. Subterfuge. Isn't that sort of negative sounding?

I assert that this is an effort by you to insert PC into my free speech rights, by suggesting that I use adjectives that you are pressuring me to use.

It's not like you haven't beaten the word liberal or the left into the ground as an implication of everything negative you could ever think of.

If you don't like my passion, oh well. If my passion threatens you. Sorry. I am not the one talking about a civil war, you are.

………… parent

Strictly speaking.

I assert that this is an effort by you to insert PC into my free speech rights, by suggesting that I use adjectives that you are pressuring me to use.

Given the ratio of liberals to conservatives here you could hardly make the case that I am using peer pressue to do anything to you. Presumably the vast majority of people on this site are on your side of the PC issue so I doubt that you feel any undue pressure here.

I, on the other hand, am completely outnumbered. Some might say that YOU have all of the POWER, therefore, and by Specter's version of PC that means that you can't apply this notion in reverse. You are using you position of power to oppress me.

And I thought you were on the side of the oppressed. :-)

Hey Specter, did I get this right about the power structure angle of all this?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

My god you make me insane

I am not talking about peer pressure liberal conservative ratio stats.

I am talking about your specific, individual comment that the use of the word subterfuge is not a PC acceptable term for me an individual to use.

As if I can't say subterfuge and conservative in the same sentence is somehow politically incorrect.

Live by the sword die by the sword. I reject you censorship of my adjectives.

………… parent

Now you are arguing my side?

1) I illustrated, using your own words, the very mechanism by which PC applies social pressure to individuals.

2) You tried to turn it around on me. Presumably to illustrate my position with respect to PC in general.

3) I countered with one of the PC tenets (under Specter's definition) related to power structures and thus illustrated how PC uses this concept to try and exempt itself from having to follow its own rules.

4) Now you are arguing that my illustration of "PC in action" amounts to censorship, and is therefore "bad".

Given our little analogy we have going here, isn't that sort of like saying the PC = bad because it is censorship? I thought you were a member of the PC = good crowd.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

No.

You said PC was bad, then you employed it.

I have consistently said that PC is a fake issue. It is have good manners in PUBLIC or face the consequences. Nothing more nothing less.

You are tryingn to turn it into a liberal conspiracy which it is not.

If you want to be rude and insult the host of a dinner party. Go for it. You just want be invited back. Not a liberal conspiracy. Just good manners.

………… parent

And this is my point.

or face the consequences

Which would be? Social pressure in the form of public ridicule or legal actions.

So, to review:

1) I claim that PC is a leftist attempt an thought control.

2) I adopt Specter's own definition of PC.

3) You object to my characterization of PC and being leftist mind control, because it is just about good manners.

4) I then select one of your statements and construct a PC-like argument to illustrate how you are using peer pressure against me.

5) You try to turn the tables on me by adopting my own position (gee, where did you ever get that idea) by claiming that I was using PC to stifle you.

6) I then utilized another one of Specter's tenants to negate your assertion in (5) on the grounds that you are the one in the power position on this site, not me. Hence there is no way for me to use PC against you, which is essentially the argument that the left uses. Again, illustrating the folly thereof.

7) You then call my use of PC to be nothing more than censorship.

8) I then point out that you are arguing my case in the grander scheme of PC.

It was my hope that this exercise would help you to understand my objection to PC, but it seems to have failed because you are now back to the whole PC is nothing but good manners meme, even though I have just illustrated how PC relies on the very antithesis of good manners to accomplish its goals.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Just a quick interjection.

I don't think PC is a leftist notion, because it exists on the right as well. Nor is it, by any measure, a new concept.

What it is is lazy thinking (of which there is plenty across the span of the ideological spectrum) -- the attempt to substitude pre-conceived rules and "taboo lists" for contextual interpretation and abiguity.

Carry on.

"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell

………… parent

Well, on this we can disagree ...

I don't think PC is a leftist notion ...

Regardless of who originated it and who propagates it, I think that we are in agreement that it is somehow focused on the wrong things ... and therefore society would be better off if we shifted our focus onto more productive areas.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

I have never even heard of PC

except first and only from the right.

The closest thing I ever saw was when I said that boss x might not want Boss y's personal attentions (I have forgotten the specifics but they had no bearing on the fact that both boss x and Boss y were men) One gay person in the room made a very big deal that it was gay bashing, till I pointed out that the sex of the participants had no bearing on the joke.

If I had been paranoid about PC I could have blown the whole thing into a generalized PC nightmare. Instead I put it down to the hypersensitivity of one person, who jumped to a conclusion and took offense where none was intended.

By contrast I have seen such hypersensitivity a great deal from the religious right especially, giving me equal grief for a statement that indicated the the earth might be over 6000 years old, or saying Damn when I stub a toe or something, even as I was forced, on the job, to listen to a fund raising rant, with prayers and singing, from a hyper-religious teen rescue group, that I found very offensive.

The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.

………… parent

People need to get over themselves.

By all means, struggle against racism, sexism and homophobia -- particularly their manifestations in the form of physical violence, discrimination, and unequal treatment. Be vocal about it. Eroding acceptance of bigotry through dialogue, visible cultural interaction and social pressure is a worthy project – one I entirely support and participate in.

Think of it as competition within the memosphere.

But keep things in perspective. We're nothing more than bacteria on speck of cosmic dust. Our sensibilities, besides being entirely subjective, aren't that important in the grand schema. I personally wouldn't want to go through life without ever being offended, so perhaps I don't quite understand the impulse to purge offensive words from the dialect. In any case, the attitudes revealed by words are more important than the words themselves. Getting rid of the word and leaving the attitude unchallenged is akin to sweeping an unsightly mess under a rug.

In my view, language isn't supposed to be an analgesic drug; it's supposed to accurately describe our experience and enable communication. Not every concept is pleasant and aseptic; neither should our words be. Going out of our way to placate hypersensitivity impoverishes language and by diluting meaning.

Above all, people should not surrender their intelligence and judgment. There isn't a single word that is always offensive. Our capacity to discern nuance and context is one of the most valuable aspects of abstract thought. We should exercise this uniquely human capacity rather than drawing up lists of "taboo words" and regressing to the inflexible rule-based decision making of automatons.

"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell

………… parent

Excellent!

………… parent

Umm.

In case you didn't realize it, I believe that Autarkh is actually arguing for my side of the whole PC debate.

Autarkh, by way of background on the somewhat pervasion PC discussion that goes on here, if you have not already come across it here is a link to Specter's position on PC .

That was written in reply to a thread of discussion which you can follow here:

http://www.swordscrossed.org/node/840#comment-38929
http://www.swordscrossed.org/node/840#comment-39023

My opening position was:

The whole point of PC is to reduce offensive statements in society, right? PC totally focuses on eliminating the offensive statements and not on the underlying causes (I guess out of respect for people being allowed to believe what they want to believe).

Specter's diary covers his view of language and whether words and ideas are even separable or not as independent concepts, and whether words form the basis of ideas or are merely verbal/written proxies for those ideas (my position).

I have never adequately responded to Specter's diary as I didn't have time at the time...

EDIT:

In case it was not obvious without the background provided above, my use of PC in this case was intended to be snark to illustrate the mechanisms of PC using missliberties own words against her. I was being sarcastic. I am in no way an advocate of PC, but just the opposite.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

I tend to view the whole PC debate...

...as an engine for the continuous production of outrage and controversy -- culture war “noise” that distracts attention from real issues.

I generally agree with the points you made in your posts, particularly:

I am arguing that the language is an artifact of the underlying racism, not the source of the racism itself.

This:

[The historical reduction in the prevalence of racism] is more likely due to a general raising of awareness about these issues than anything else (which I think actually DOES help to address the underlying racism).

And:

So when I argue that PC doesn't matter or solve anything that doesn't necessarily imply that I am not sensitive to the issue at hand, or that I don't sympathize with the "intent" that PC is trying to achieve, I just think that it focuses on the wrong thing (i.e. the language).

Language is extraordinarily complicated, and I’m not a linguist. But it seems that words are, simultaneously, building blocks and symbols for more complex concepts. Insofar as they can congeal a nuanced set of ideas, or meanings, into discreet, easily manipulable units of thought, they are building blocks. And, to the extent that they are merely representations of these underlying ideas, they are symbols. I don’t know how useful this dichotomy is; it might be better to conceive of the relationship as analogous the de Broglie’s wave-particle duality.

Let’s consider racism.

I don’t think it can be reduced to a single idea, but rather, a mutually reinforcing lattice of memes. You don’t undermine its structural integrity by disallowing the application of a particular term to the constituent elements, but, by demonstrating the fallaciousness of the elements themselves. After you’ve done this for some critical number, the whole edifice collapses, whereas changing the nomenclature of the parts is mostly cosmetic – a palette swap.

There’s no question words like “nigger” or “faggot” are used to wound. But what do we find offensive? I submit that it cannot be the word itself, because a collection of letters or sounds has no inherent meaning; we confer meaning. This is trivial to demonstrate. Call someone who has never been exposed to English these things, and they will have no idea what you’re talking about. The word “nigger” is offensive because it conveys the meaning “you are subhuman because of your skin color.” Even if you completely eliminate it from the language, you have done very little to attack the underlying attitude.

I am not advocating that we start throwing “nigger” around like water. It’s a loaded word, with a long history of abuse. But can’t we recognize that in the context used above, it wasn’t offensive? Wouldn’t it have been infinitely more offensive to insult the reader’s intelligence with the euphemism “the n-word”? Can we be honest and admit that simply rendering the word unacceptable in everyday usage doesn’t erode the fallacious ideas it represents?

For that matter, how is saying “crap” any different from “shit”? Why is “fuck” considered a curse word when “genocide” or "murder" aren’t?

It all makes very little sense to me, but perhaps my mistake is in assuming that "sense-making" even enters into the equation.

"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell

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Agreed.

I have no problem with you description of the issue and I believe that we hold similar, if not the same, views on the relationship between words and the underlying racist ideas.

Moving forward with this discussion, I think it prudent to stick with the PC-ized versions of some of these words lest we incur the rather of the powers that be around here. :-)

More to come ...

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Basically agreed

especially with this earlier statement.

...struggle against racism, sexism and homophobia -- particularly their manifestations in the form of physical violence, discrimination, and unequal treatment. Be vocal about it. Eroding acceptance of bigotry through dialogue, visible cultural interaction and social pressure is a worthy project – one I entirely support and participate in.

Not sure if GoRight would agree with that.

You raise awareness through language, polite and socially acceptable language, in the 60's the n word was highly inflammatory and could spark violence. But through enforceable laws on desegregation, awareness has risen and diversity has increased. From that point change occurs. Unfortunately the subtle subcontext of this is racism. That segregation was Forced on some people and the resented it, still resent it, and are making an issue out of a distant memory.

PC and the fine for the nipple incident...... good lord......, or how to make kids even more curious by making certain sexy things taboo.

After perusing some super hard right blogs I was literally shocked at the level of hysteria some so called intellectual thinkers were displaying that liberals are destroying language, and literally trying to overtake the world, but this is more in the context of religous martyrs seeking voice.

ON the other side of the coin, conservatives have destroyed the word liberal, which in the 60's had a positive connotation. These days when Hannity or William Kristol let the words drip off their lips through barred teeth it is akin to working as a North Korean spy in a shadowy al_Queda network.

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Maybe we agree more than I thought.

...struggle against racism, sexism and homophobia -- particularly their manifestations in the form of physical violence, discrimination, and unequal treatment. Be vocal about it. Eroding acceptance of bigotry through dialogue, visible cultural interaction and social pressure is a worthy project – one I entirely support and participate in.

Not sure if GoRight would agree with that.

I basically agree with this quote, but nothing in this quote is a defense of PC as far as I can tell.

PC and the fine for the nipple incident...... good lord......, or how to make kids even more curious by making certain sexy things taboo.

Interesting, are you referring to the nipple incident as an example of PC as used by the right? Or are you just saying that PC (and the nipple incident) were silly?

You raise awareness through language, polite and socially acceptable language, in the 60's the n word was highly inflammatory and could spark violence.

I have no problem with raising awareness through civil dialogue. In fact that is exactly what I argue for. I just don't consider demonizing someone over the words that they use as going to:

1) Solve the underlying problem, or
2) Want to stay and be part of the dialogue.

in this way I see PC as being counter productive.

But through enforceable laws on desegregation, awareness has risen and diversity has increased. From that point change occurs. Unfortunately the subtle subcontext of this is racism. That segregation was Forced on some people and the resented it, still resent it, and are making an issue out of a distant memory.

I think that you grossly overestimate the level of push back and resentment to desegregation as it exists today. I don't dispute what happened at the time, but today I just don't see it as an issue amongst anyone on the right. The concerns are more about religious vs. liberal moral values and real world perspectives, not race.

Interestingly, the Muslims are now pushing for segregation in public schools in the UK . I wonder how long before that starts here in the US.

You commented above that you think PC is a fake issue, yet you have Specter arguing vigorously in defense of it and not simply as a matter of "good manners". He is definitely of the opinion that PC is a serious tool to combat things like racism and changing people's thinking on those topics.

Where do you actually stand on that point? Given our discussions I had always assumed that you were pro-PC, but in retrospect if you think that it is "fake" maybe not?

After perusing some super hard right blogs I was literally shocked at the level of hysteria some so called intellectual thinkers were displaying that liberals are destroying language, and literally trying to overtake the world, but this is more in the context of religous martyrs seeking voice.

On the other side of the coin, conservatives have destroyed the word liberal, which in the 60's had a positive connotation. These days when Hannity or William Kristol let the words drip off their lips through barred teeth it is akin to working as a North Korean spy in a shadowy al_Queda network.

You seem to have an emotional reaction to this whole topic. Is there a reason? I don't disagree that conservatives have successfully painted the term liberal with negative connotations. This seems to make you angry, which is fair enough?

Why can't you then empathize when I have exactly the same reaction to having conservatives being painted as racists, sexists, and homophobes? Isn't this exactly the same thing in reverse?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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It is what it is

I don't think it is that much of an issue.

You are the one screeching pc police are a form of liberal mind control and the beginning of tyranny and persecution against the right, which I think is utterly ludicrous on its face.

Yet for political purpose you and your ilk, the Rush Limbaugh crowd are spreading this false case scenario of liberal tyranny and demonic socialist democratic control. It is ridiculous. It is idiotic. And this type of hyperbole does not serve the country well.

And you always REFUSE to understand that it is OKAY if we disagree, which I think is on its face disrespectful of me and my individuality.

You must understand that I don't have to agree with you. That I am separate from you. That I also love my country, and I certainly think it would be better served to stop this childish whining about mean liberals, and stop pretending to be a martyr, as if you are being persecuted because someone asked you not to use the n word on TV, or to stop evangelizing in public schools, as if science class should be about Jesus.

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Macaca is instructive

Macaca was a secret word for insiders, it implied that all people of color were mental monkeys, and had a slight excretory spin to it besides. And it also told the insider listener that the speaker was one of them, no matter what platitudes were spoken they were all brothers of the sheets.

What happened was that it was turned around 180 degrees and shoved back in the face of the Bigot. Suddenly rather than being a word to describe the victim it became a derogatory word to describe the bigot, without even losing its excretory sidelights.

PS
Actually there is a big difference between using crap instead of shit. From the "no good deed goes unpunished" files one should remember poor Sir John Crapper. He invents a tool that brings an end to endless plagues, saves the lives of untold millions, and for honors his very name becomes synonymous with excrement.

Shit on the other hand is good old Anglosaxon, a class reminder that dealing with it was beneath the Romantic upper classes.

The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.

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And you know this how?

Macaca was a secret word for insiders, it implied that all people of color were mental monkeys, and had a slight excretory spin to it besides. And it also told the insider listener that the speaker was one of them, no matter what platitudes were spoken they were all brothers of the sheets.

or are you just making shit/crap up out of thin air?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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It was widely researched at the time

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060911/george_allen/2
Beyond Macaca: The Photograph That Haunts George Allen

The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.

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I did admit

in my very first comment in this diary that my explanation might be very poorly done. This is not an easy concept to communicate and I'm not that good at it; it's more a philosophical concept than a practical one. I thank you for asking questions so that I can try to clarify.

I do care about how the left feels. Reread my first comment again. I tried to include examples of the issues where one side feels strongly but the other does not. On each of these issues, the opposite side misjudges just how much the issue means to the other side, simply because they themselves do not "get" the importance of the issue.

Both sides are guilty of expecting instant capitulation when discussion is called for. Both sides use opportunistic techniques to push their agendas down the other's throat. But the left assumes the right's style of "grudge-bearing" is like theirs. (I am not trying to be scary here and it's not actually a scary situation, so don't go overboard on that.) They think the other side would react as they would.

Let's use your tantrum example. It's your child; you must live with him the rest of your life. He's not being reasonable (in your opinion). What are you going to do with him?

And does that action square with your liberal ideals?

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Good question!!!

Tantrum example.

Difficult situation. The child has passion and is displaying indepence. Those are good things. But acting out, not good. Giving in and buying candy, says, have another tantrum and you will get more candy.

It is a long and complicated explanation, but in the end, you can't teach a child to not act out by screaming and yelling at him in the store, or in the parking lot.

You would be saying, I am going to teach that being angry is bad, by being angry. Or I am going to teach you to not act out by acting out myself. That does not work.

You avoid the situation by setting guidelines before you go in the store.

You are trying to make the child understand that this behavior is unacceptable (peer pressure for manners) and that he is responsible for his behavior not you. That if he chooses to act out then HIS actions will have consequences for him, not for you. You help him learn that he can make choices and that HE has to live with the consequences of those choices.

Let's just say, its hard work.

I was thinking about this last night. Social responsibility etc. One of the biggest obligations I feel is the resonsibility to be a good example to the children in my neighborhood, which might be nothing more than being a good example.

Anger and frustration are not inherently bad. It is the actions you take in relation, will they be productive or unproductive. Anger energizes you, gives you an adrenalin rush. You can use that anger positively and constructively, as in to win the high jump competition, or negatively and destructively hurting others or yourself.

As a liberal I see every emotion or character trait as having a good and a bad side.

The bad side of a tantrum is that it could lead to socially unacceptable, distruptive and possibly self destructive behavior later in life.

The good side, is that a child with a strong will, if encouraged and directed will have no problem resisting peer pressure, becoming a boss, a good competitor and a leader.

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Responses.

What makes you think that Republicans have a corner on the market for being "fed up"? They don't.

I never claimed we did. That is why I used BOTH Clinton and Bush 43 as examples of wakeup calls. To say that the left is not as upset with Bush 43 as the right was with Clinton is to clearly ignore the facts. And you claim that I want to live under a rock.

Please provide a direct quote where I (or anyone else) claimed that "the Republican's have a corner on the market for being 'fed up'?", or consider yourself hereby fined $10 by the Star Chamber of verifiable facts.

Of course Republicans are fed up. They don't even have a viable candidate for President. And the ones they do have try to out-cave man each other with responses to fear mongering questions, like lets double the size of Gitmo.

Cluelessness. PurpleFace gets my point, you don't.

But allowing said frustration to lead to talk of promoting violence...... well, maybe we should spend some government funds on mental health....... as it would benefit the safety of our society as a whole.( Is Republican mental health a national security issue?)

First, I am not PROMOTING anything. Please retract that allegation as it is false, and this had been pointed out to you on multiple posts.

By the Star Chamber of verifiable facts, you are fined $10 for willful lying.

Frustrated men with guns having temper tantrums is dangerous!

Sexist. This discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with gender, you female chauvinist piggette.

I fully agree with Specter that this whole topic is ridiculous.

So go away and ignore the discussion.

The right is turning the PC debate into something out of control in suggesting that it is "thought control".

For the record, I am not just making this up. It is a direct implication of Specter's view of what PC is intended to accomplish and the mechanism by which it operates. As I understand his defense of PC, it all boils down to:

1) Language shapes the way we think (i.e. it shapes our thoughts).*

2) If we change the language, then we can change the way people think (and thus attack racism at its roots).

Is this an unfair statement of your position, Specter? Does #2 not, therefore, amount to thought control?

PC is just good manners, and being respectful in PUBLIC, period.
Nothing more or less.

I think that you grossly misunderstand the intent and implications of PC as Specter has described it. Hey, I am not claiming that you and Specter want to use PC for nefarious purposes (i.e. I accept that your INTENTIONS are good), but that doesn't change the fundamental nature of what you are trying to do.

PC is good manners and being respectful in PUBLIC?

So when you berate people and call them racists, sexists, and homophobes IN PUBLIC, that is your definition of good manners? Or are you saying that only those that you disagree with have to demonstrate good manners but you are allowed to be rude IN PUBLIC because you have a just and honorable cause?

* See his diary on PC and language.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Is it rude or is it controversial

Why pretend like the PC debate is about something less than it is.

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I'm flattered

that I am both the centerpiece of a thread I had no participation in and that my diary is the centerpiece of the prophesied civil war. I never knew language was so important (actually, I do which is why I spend my time studying language). Make sure you are taking your ginkoba and eating fish, because it seems your memory is faltering as I've answered this charge already in the past few weeks (as I did in my original diary also).

I don't understand what you want here. Do you want to go around calling people 'fags' and 'n***ers'? Go ahead. Nobody is stopping you. Pay the consequences though.

One other thing, please respond to me when you are attacking my version of PC. I don't think it is missliberties (BTW, thank you very much for sticking up for me when I was gone to the best of your ability) responsibility to defend the linguistic foundations of PC when it is my argument. If she sees PC as good manners and politeness, that is fine (not exactly my definition, but it is better than your strawman version of it--tolerating everything or whatever it is).

Lastly, sorry I have not been able to participate here much the last few days. Since school ended, I had to make the obligatory family visits around the state. I am also leaving tomorrow for my step-brother-in-law's wedding in Florida so I may be hit or miss for the next 10 days. I will try to check in as often as I can, but I'm sure it will be random and rare. After that, I should be back in full force.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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Ahhhhhh, the professor returns

to put salve on our infected verbal wounds...!

Have a great trip, and all. If you see a Reagan dime, don't forget to throw it on the ground and kick it.

Will you be driving??? And what about that baby on the way? When is it due?

( Isn't study of language also a part of philosophical courses?)

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Flying

and it is mighty close to the limit, but her midwife gave her permission to travel (she's still a month away--due June 28th--another boy to my wife's chagrin), and the airline abode by the midwife's decision.

Linguistics is in fact a subfield or philosophy, but there are few strict lines dividing the academic disciplines these days, so there are things like sociolinguistics, cultural linguistics, psychological linguistics, semantics, semiotics, semiology, and other subfields of linguistics also. It is a very complicated field, but I don't think it is as subjective and abstract as some fields of philosophy since there are established 'rules', and the fact that we use language everyday make s it fairly practical.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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Will miss you.

I hope you have a fabulous time!

Am giving myself a D cause I can barely get past even reading all the linguistic disciplines without getting a headache.!

Assuming PC is linguistic, or that language is a basis for our culture and mores, then could we pretend to assume that being polite has some origins in language? Salud!

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Two things

GR is saying he anticipates a civil war at multiple times in this discussion. So unless I am missing something, he does think it will happen, and he empathizes with the people that are attempting to start it (McVeigh and the white supremacists).

As I said below, I don't understand this frustration because the right has powerful infrastructure in this country as is (they in fact have a mighty voice in this country), yet they predict the necessity of stepping out of the system to eradicate any remnants that don't abide by their cause. Ridiculous.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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Hey, you can think what you want.

I'm just telling you how I feel and I think others on my side feel, and giving you real world examples of things that have actually happened.

If you want to discount them that is your right.

I only turned this into a diary because PurpleFace and a few others wanted to discuss it further.

I never intended, and have stated such in multiple comments, that I consider it to be a foregone conclusion. I do consider it more of a possibility than the left seems to.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I think we on the Right

consider it more of a "possibility", however remote that is, because the general Social and Economic trend has been leftward for quite some time, so it is the Right that is on the losing side.

Some social reforms and progress are good (which is where I diverge from the Social conservatives), but the Thought adjustment and control parts (anti-discrimination, pc, hate crimes, free speech) are definitely troubling to us. And that's aside from the Economic equality garbage :)

I am with you man. You never know if we are going to keep the balance that prevents us from losing our freedoms and sliding into an authoritarian society.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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On that frustration thing

Isn't frustration exactly what happened in the sixties peace movement.

Looking at it from the other side can you see how frustration led people to act out in protest against a war in the 60's, in complete frustration with the governments inadequate actions.

And Mexicans here in the US, have been shown a great big welcome mat, by US corporations, reached a level of frustration last year that they took to the streets in mass....... to protest the double standard......!

Yet somehow when the right protests, so to speak, they don't take to the streets in the same fashion. They are always seeking an answer that runs immediately to force or infiltration.

I don't remember exactly where I read it, but the biggest difference between liberals and conservatives was their decisions on use of force; when, where and why they would choose to use a military response as a solution to a problem.

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These are fine examples.

Isn't frustration exactly what happened in the sixties peace movement.

Looking at it from the other side can you see how frustration led people to act out in protest against a war in the 60's, in complete frustration with the governments inadequate actions.

And Mexicans here in the US, have been shown a great big welcome mat, by US corporations, reached a level of frustration last year that they took to the streets in mass....... to protest the double standard......!

That just happen, BTW, to support my point. Tensions are rising on BOTH sides. If they rise high enough, civil war may result. Without the rising tensions, war would be unlikely to next to impossible. War requires passion and conviction.

Yet somehow when the right protests, so to speak, they don't take to the streets in the same fashion. They are always seeking an answer that runs immediately to force or infiltration.

The right does NOT protest in the way that you mean it. It is against our very nature. We do not seek to make you think and live like us, rather we choose to respect your right to think and live as you choose.

All of the tactics that you look for (as a leftist) will NOT be forthcoming as a telltale sign of our level of frustration and anger. Rather we will seek to wall you out and draw a line in the sand (i.e. our homes) where if you seek to intrude you will be met with force.

Again, I don't at all see the scenario as our coming for YOU, but rather the other way around. All of the cases I have cited have been the other way around.

I don't remember exactly where I read it, but the biggest difference between liberals and conservatives was their decisions on use of force; when, where and why they would choose to use a military response as a solution to a problem.

Despite all of the rhetoric from the left on how Bush is spying on everyone, I still don't see any armed assaults by law enforcement (in country on American citizens) like we saw under Clinton.

Despite your claim that the Left doesn't condone violence, your examples from the sixties speak clearly counter to that claim (student riots, black panthers, etc.), as does the aggressive nature of law enforcment under the Clinton administration.

From my perspective, the Right uses the rule of law as a shield against oppression whereas the Left uses the rule of law as an instrument of oppression.

The Establishment Clause is a fine example of this. At the time that it was written the clear intent of the Establishment Clause was to PROTECT freedom OF Religion. Today, in the form of the ACLU and others, the Establishment Clause has been effectively turned into a WEAPON to use AGAINST Religion.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I disagree

but am not going to go into it in detail.

I will say that I think dems have been in the past regulation happy too much so, just for that feel good vote.

The right using the rule of law to try and insert itself into personal lives.... like Terri Shaivo. No I don't agree with that. So the right is guilty also.

Against religon. No. Against inserting religon into public institutions yes. Do you want the Koran posted in the courts or schools? If not why not? It is a religon. If not, then perhaps you are inserting an agenda from a specific religon into public institutions. That's the beef. Let me pick my own religon thank you.

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No problem with the Qaran in public institutions.

As I have said, and prefer a non-preferentialist reading of the Establishment Clause.

So, if there are parts of the Qaran that are representative of our notion of the rule of law and the things that our laws stand for, then sure. Why not. I am not scared of the Qaran.

[ You have tried this angle many times and received the same response. Why do you persist? ]

If not, then perhaps you are inserting an agenda from a specific religon into public institutions. That's the beef. Let me pick my own religon thank you.

As stated above, I have no problem with other religions also having access to putting applicable symbols and quotes in public places. I do have a problem with allowing them access while seeking to exclude the Christians.

I also have no problem with you picking your own religion, or even your having NO religion. As I said, the right tends to have a live and let live mindset on these things. We have to be accepting of others views if we are going to demand that they be accepting of ours.

This concept of we all get to think what we want and live our lives like we want doesn't really seem to register with you, because you are constantly trying to get others to view things the same way that you do.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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No I am just repeating

what some of the movers and the shakers of our political discourse are promoting. It is not secret that the GOP has a faction of hard religous right that has helped them politically, until now.

I am pleased you are into religous diversity.

I am just putting out my ideas. You are free to reject or accept them.
It is important for you to remember that I am just an individual. I speak for myself only, unless otherwise stated.

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I don't think so

I also have no problem with you picking your own religion, or even your having NO religion. As I said, the right tends to have a live and let live mindset on these things. We have to be accepting of others views if we are going to demand that they be accepting of ours.

I have not seen a great deal of that mind set. These folk are all too happy to place the Ten Commandments in everyones face, but are utterly opposed to Jesus's actual words, about doing unto others as you would have others do to you, much less any nonChristian Idea.

They have instead twisted history to suit their needs as much as the Bible and, given power, will kill anyone who disagreed with them

I would think that many on the Right of Libertarian bent would be as appalled as I am by these folk, but I have seen little evidence of it.

The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.

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Why are people

who think that this civil war is a true possibility (trying my best to be specific enough to meet your standards) so frustrated? You have the presidency for the last 7 years, congress was yours for 12 years up until 5 months ago, you have your own media (talk radio for the most part, FOX News, Qube TV, Conservapedia, etc.), the military, and the Supreme Court for all intents and purposes.

Why are you guys always playing the victim? Why don't you love this country enough to work through the system to get the changes made you want accomplished rather than anticipating/empathizing with civil war mentalities.

That is the difference between the conspiracy theory leftists and the c.t. rightists. The left still believes in working in the system (even when the perceived violations are systemic) vs the right who believes in a vigilante reaction (a la Tim McVeigh even when the perceived violations are not systemic).

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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Victimization is a necessity

Every Bully blames his victims as having made him do it, that his actions are a natural self defense response to perceived attack no matter how imaginary.

The biggest screaming example of this is of course Iraq, how else could this twisted little dictator with a broken country be so blatantly assaulted by a country with a military bigger than his Gross National Product.

But they do the same thing at every turn. It is all a "Liberal Media" as justification for subversion and take over of all broadcast outlets, and scream piteously if a single voice manages to be heard in the wilderness.

Cry Crocodile tears about imaginary individual voter fraud, even as they engineer massive Election fraud

Are outraged about a stupid Christmas tree singing a filk version of "Silent Night" as driving Christianity from the public square, even as the play was extremely Christian in plot and plan, even as it was written by a Baptist preacher from a right wing mega church, even as it was played across the country in Churches, Schools AND the Public Squares!

And even as they howl that folk might say Happy Holidays (you know as in HOLY days) being thusly inclusive of all the various religions that celebrate the Winter Solstice, each in its own way, instead of the obtusely Christian, single day only Merry Christmas, Still they howl some more that folk are all PC about blatant Hate speech and how it oppresses their minds.

The list is endless, Chess, Soccer, and Home Economics are all Secular and therefore promote Atheism and therefore Dominionist Christianity demands exclusive equal time with each of them.

Evolution is attacking Creationism

Medicine is attacking Faith healing

Knowledge is attacking Truthiness

Idiocy is in a losing battle with awareness

They seem to be wrong about that too.

The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.

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Fighting in Democracy

I have read your post carefully and I feel you got a point saying that even in the steadiest democracies when the gaps in the political sphere are too deep sometimes extreme forms of conflict can occur.

Still I think that standing and even fighting for one rights and opinions can be done inside the political mechanism and there is no risk for a second civil war as long as the communication lines are open.

http://www.therepublicansonline.com/

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an observation

this spears to b al to similar to the average husband and wife scenario insole homes. For example, the husband comes home after a long day at work an is content to be home for simple pleasure of just that. The wife instantly starts yapping about all manner of things less for the value of enriching her husbands life but more to the point of by talking and having an audience she feels validated somehow, like the kid on the bench feeling special because he was allowed to carry the quarterbacks jock strap to the laundry bin. The husband tires to act interested in order not to appear calluses or noninterested in the opinions or otherwise of his partner. The wife feeling insulted by him not hanging on everty word throws a light tantrum. The husband largely ignores it until the wife, not considering the outcome more involved the lack of emotional response makes a comment about his mother then after seeing a response continues to drive home basking in the attention the misplaced desire to land points on a game that never started. The husband now mad as he'll over am entirely seperate issue is steaming mad because he just wanted some peace after being the trenches all day is dangerously close to punching his wife. She is energized by the level and degree of response from the husband bwcuaae emotional stimulus and the reaction rom that are what she thrives on and at this point has no consideration of the potential costs drives it home with another zinger. Well the husband has has enough and doesn't see how he she exit the conversation he was minding his own business just trying to read the paper after a long day, so having had all he can stand he slaps her. Well first she is shocked and runs for the phone to diall 911. The brutal animal has abuses her. The husband sits back down and reads his paper, a night in jail would at least be more peaceful. Now let me tie away your billets before you pull the trigger, either role could be reversed and I'm not advocating anything here. Compare Thais to some of the posts and the idea that started it all. Did anyone start out expecting it to come to blows but think about your own experiences and how easy this scenario is recreates in by home. How far are we from civil war or at least something of that nature no matter how degraded and we are in a state that a much les vigorous event could cripple us almost as bad as the aftermath of a war wig the economic state,etc. Oh and please excuse my UAE of simple terms probable typos, simple as it my be I use the tools that are comdortble in my hands.

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New American Civil War

I believe that the putrid, despicable, black fascist Barack Hussein Obama and his circle of accomplices has finally become the final straw that will break the camel's back of national unity.  I certainly DO see a new shooting war starting, probably within the next three years.  There are too many freedom-loving true Americans left in this nation to voluntarily submit to the coup that is presently occuring.  This time, I believe it will be a war between the American heartland against the two coasts and great lakes cities.  I believe most blacks will flee to those areas to fight against the American midwest and south, and it will finally end all the fake talk of the virtues of "tolerance" and "diversity" we've had to swallow for the past 25 years.  Like Hitler and Mussolini, [deleted] Obama will learn that he is not actually God. 

Michael

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Normally I don't respond to trolls.

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Mike P Delaney Attorney

http://www.mikedelaneylaw.com/Guestbook.htm

 He's a bulldog, and will fight for your rights to wipe your a** without that black fascist President knowing what kind of toilet paper you use.

 Dear Dukes,

 Take your hate filled screed somewhere else. Do your clients know that you are a racist? And do they know that you might not have passed the bar exam?

 

 Attorney Michael P. Delaney admitted in New York and Texas.

Not certified by the Texas Board of Legal Specialization.

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New American Civil War

Not only did I pass the bar, I scored in the top 6%.  I'm also a member of Mensa, which you've probably never even heard of.  And all the hundreds of black gang-bangers, thugs, and other aqssorted criminals I have represented over the years don't care if I'm a racist, because I'm so good at what I do.

Michael

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Fortunately in Texas our liberty is pretty safe...

...but if I ever had to shoot someone in NYC, which is far more probable than it is anywhere in Texas, I'd consider looking MD up...

...He's just Miss Liberties in reverse...which can't be all that bad. 

 

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

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Kind of late getting into this...

 But this is something I've just recently started to ponder. I am a left wing person. My parents and a few friends of mine are on the right and I am sure most of them see me as an outright political enemy(though we remain civil and enjoy hanging out quite a bit). My concern has become this, come election year in 2012, should the Republicans win (which seems more likely every day) my concern is will there be a backlash against those of us on the left? 

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I don't think that there will be this type of backlash ...

any time soon, especially of the Republicans "win" in 2012.  They'll want to hold onto the moderates at the polls.  I think the backlash would actually come only in response to more and more intrusion by the government into personal freedoms ... something that Obama seems intent on doing ... but still a long way's off, IMHO.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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