Can Atheists Be Trusted?
Recent surveys in the US have found that 40% of voters (63% of Evangelicals) would have reservations in voting for an atheist. I think part of this stems from a feeling that atheists can't be trusted.
As the election season heats up we see more examples of obviously non-religious candidates proclaiming their beliefs because of this distrust. I speculate on the reasons below.
Let's start with a common occurrence - swearing to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth" in a court proceeding. Such testimony is said to be given "under oath". Until fairly recently people would swear on a Bible. This makes little sense on the face of it since the US is supposed to be a secular society. In fact when a newly elected official chose to take his oath on a Koran instead it produced criticism. (I should point out that such ceremonies are only symbolic, the actual pledge is to uphold the constitution.)
The thing that must motivate such attitudes is that swearing falsely in the view of God leaves one open to divine retribution. In other words, one is promising to tell the truth out of fear. Since an atheist has no such fear, there is no assurance that they will actually tell the truth.
We, of course, know that such affirmations have little effect in the real world. The crime of perjury wouldn't exist if the possibility of lying under oath weren't common. So, apparently, the argument from fear carries little weight in many cases, even among the nominally religious. Perhaps those breaking their pledge think they will be able to compensate for their misdeed later by repenting or some other action. This may be so, but what we are concerned with here is the reliability of the testimony.
From this point of view those taking the vow are no more reliable than those who just make a simple affirmation. This leaves the question of why should an atheist tell the truth, especially if lying would benefit their cause? Well, it would seem that the motivation is the same as for any one else, some people have a strong sense of fairness or justice and believe in "doing the right thing". Others fear that their lies may be uncovered and then they will prosecuted for perjury. So is the worry of temporal punishment less of an inhibition to lying than that of divine punishment? This seems unlikely. If most people really thought this than we wouldn't need perjury laws, we would just assume that the God would meet out justice eventually.
Aside from truthfulness the religious are skeptical about atheist's moral compass. If God doesn't supply the rules of right and wrong than where do they come from? This type of belief system is rooted in those religions which have a codified set of commandments. This is primarily those stemming from Judaism and the ten commandments. In other cultures such a formal set of precepts is not as common, yet these societies have managed to come up with almost the same sets of moral underpinnings. Those that deal with interactions between people (as opposed to those which specify one's relationship with God) involve protection of one's person and property. When reduced to their basics they are restatements of the golden rule: don't do unto others what you wouldn't wish done to you. This leads directly to prohibitions against murder and theft. Atheists have the same concerns for their wealth and safety as anyone else and so can be expected to support the same general restraints on behavior. There is no need for an externally supplied set of rules.
Interestingly the breakdown in the power of the traditional religions (starting with the Protestant Reformation) has meant that many people now acknowledge that there may be more than one religious path to follow. This has led to what I call cafeteria religion. If you don't like the basis of one denomination shop around until you find one that suits you better. This has extended to being selective within a choice as well. For example many Roman Catholics don't agree with the church's position on birth control and ignore it. The same selectivity is common when dealing with moral issues. President Bush, for example, stated that those aspects of Islam which command followers to perform violent acts are not really part of the religion. Others do the same for some of the orders given in the Old and New Testaments. In other words we use our innate sense of morality first and then declare that only those parts of the religious doctrine that agree with it are valid. So even for the religious morality has become increasingly based upon personal decisions.
Trustworthiness seems not to depend upon the belief in the supernatural, yet bias against atheists persists. I find the explanation elsewhere, in the wish of a small group to control the behavior of the majority. If this small group can persuade others that only they can be trusted then they have a free hand to run things as they wish. If it is admitted that others can live moral lives without acknowledging the privileged status of this small group then the leader's claims become undermined. Whether these leaders really feel that they are special or whether they are just power hungry and hypocritical is sometimes hard to determine. It is also irrelevant. The fundamental issue is one of the type of society one wishes to live in. A truly democratic society has to allow for varieties of opinion. When any group is criticized for its beliefs, rather than for any anti-social overt actions, this is a sign that democratic ideals have already been compromised.
We live in an era where the number of nominally democratic societies is greater than ever before, but in too many cases only the mechanism of democracy is observed, not the fundamental rights. Many countries are willing to hold elections and thus proclaim they are democratic, but frequently the process is flawed, not only by outright corruption, but by institutional structures which prevent all from participating freely. Several of the most common techniques include limitations on voter eligibility, suppression of political parties which are in opposition to those in power, and gerrymandering and other apportionment tricks.
The rise of the mass media and the expense of reaching the public via this avenue has also made it difficult for the non-wealthy to seek office. Discrediting of atheists or other out groups can be seen as part of this money-based propaganda effort. Those who developed the ideas of democracy during the Enlightenment didn't anticipate the degree to which public opinion could be influenced by big money and the ruling elite. We have yet to develop ways to deal with this new landscape and to maintain the rights of everyone to equal participation. We are all aware of the number of genocidal programs which occurred in the 20th Century and thus the need to protect society against such massive propaganda efforts should be high on the list of issues social philosophers should address.
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Comments :
I have always found it curious
That there should even be two forms of speaking, it is kind of like a "really, really, double dare honestly I'm telling the truth".
One is telling the truth or they are not, you are not saying that here a person is telling the truth, you are saying in all other cases "go ahead and lie like a snake".
If every word always carried the same force of law as swearing in court, civilization would look a lot different.
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.
It's projection.
They're afraid of the giant "surveillance camera in the sky," are unsure whether they would behave ethically if they acknowledged that it isn't there, and displace the uncomfortable realizations onto people who don't share their bronze age superstitions.
"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell
In an interdenominational society such as the United States,
there's no reason, imo, why an atheist can't be just as reliable as somebody who is religiously faithful, imo. Sometimes, religion can be far too constricting--in a rather dangerous way, to boot.
I sure wouldn't trust
me if my life depended on it.
Snark aside, the problem of public understanding of atheism is a much more deeply rooted one. To give you some idea of how deep this runs: my uber-conservative Catholic parents were more upset about the atheism thing than the gay thing, if you can believe that. The latter is something they've come to terms with, but they still don't understand or accept the former (they even went so far as to send my better half a religious card when he finished grad school, as a friendly nudge. If that had been a joke, it'd have been a really witty joke. They're not very witty people, though.)
I can understand it, though. In their mind - and I'll assume that this is a common belief - belonging to a different religious tradition makes sense, but atheism does not. If you're Jewish or Muslim (they'd disown me) or Buddhist or whatever, it's merely a sign that your faith has taken the wrong path. If you're an atheist, you're not even on a path, and to people who consider their faith the most important aspect of their lives, that's not only unacceptable - it's downright hostile.
This isn't meant to be an apologia for anti-atheists: frankly, I'm sick of the bad flak we take. You had a really great comment on that:
Which is the root of the "arrogant atheist" meme, I think. There certainly are atheists who evangelize their non-religion, but considering that atheists have no political power and no community clout, and are widely hated and considered untrustworthy by their neighbors, and don't even constitute a coherent "group" of people (it's not like there are atheist areas of town, c'mon!) I take that accusation about atheist "arrogance" with a giant grain of salt. But it's a convenient way to slam a group of people via alleged anti-socialism, since I think most people would agree with you that beliefs are less acceptable grounds.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I "came out" as an atheist to my dad yesterday.
Like your parents, he's also Catholic -- a fact which I find utterly incongruous with his Ph.D. in neuroscience -- who goes to church practically every Sunday.
I didn't have to deal with any hostility, but he did trot out the tired intellectual arrogance meme, which I turned around by pointing out the degree of mental compartmentalization and doublethink his balancing act requires.
All in all, it went better than I expected, though the discussion was very heated. I get the sense that I managed to heighten the doubts he surely has, so my task is accomplished.
"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell
It's good that
you two have reached some kind of detente over it. Nowadays we mostly pussyfoot awkwardly around the issue, like when the rest of the family goes to the big Christmas mass and I stay home to raid the pantry.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I dealt with some of the opposite
by coming out as a Christian to my decidedly atheist parents. I am originally from USSR and though we were ethnically jewish, my parents and I were pretty far off from any faith.
That was a bit harsh. Then I slowly reverted back to agnosticism as the whole faith thing did not work out in my mind. The side-effect was getting my dad interested in all things Biblical and Jesus. So now while he is firmly in the agnostic camp he always watches all the various Bible Archeology, Life of Jesus, etc specials on the History channel :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
That's an interesting spin on the usual story.
I can say my parents haven't been watching any documentaries on atheism recently, so you've scored higher than I have!
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Atheism IS a religious choice.
Just like any other of the other religions. In this case you are simply CHOOSING to NOT believe in a god, which is perfectly fine.
You can't avoid making a choice, however, any more than you can avoid being gay. You are going to BELIEVE something whether you want to or not. You just don't want to THINK of it as having made a choice.
[ Note that this is NOT saying that being gay is a choice. In case there was any confusion on that part. ]
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
It's not a religious choice,
any more than faith itself is a choice. Your analogy is completely wrong here:
atheism:Christianity = wrong analogy
atheism:faith = right analogy
The key difference is that the specifics of a faith can be analyzed, sought, and discussed, which is why people of faith can actively choose a religion. But people don't really choose whether or not to have some core, internal, irrational switch inside them feel the presence of a higher power or not.
Of course you can avoid making a choice: if the god topic didn't come up in conversations, I'd never think about it. It's a default setting: my switch is off. No choicemaking here.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I can't find a good way to express what I want
to say here. So perhaps calling it a "choice" was incorrect, since I am actually arguing the "not a choice, per se, case" similar to that of sexual orientation.
And this is the analogy I was trying to draw between choosing to be religious or not as being similar to choosing to be gay or not. Despite what my post above said (I knew I didn't express it well above either but couldn't find a better way to say it), the point is that "choosing" to be religious is a lot like "choosing" to be gay.
I agree with you, people don't really "choose" these things. They are just part of you. In the case of sexual orientation, there are two predominant options: gay or straight. In the case of religions, there are more than two options but Atheism clearly IS one of them.
In both cases, you don't actually "choose" in that sense so much as you simply know what you like when you see it. Hence the analous nature of "when did you decide to heterosexual" versus "when did you decide to be atheist/Muslim/Christian/????"
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Heh, the English language
strikes again. Sometimes it's just not flexible enough to wrap itself around certain ideas, so we flounder in inexpressiveness. Good effort, though.
There's a thing about these internal switches: they're not natural. They have to be created by context. Right now you don't have a switch that relates to "10th dimensional space curvature", but once I bring it up, you may develop a switch set to the off (disbelief) position. Same with religion: someone has to expound a theory of God to you in order for you to develop a switch: I'd argue that atheism is the state either of having your switch set to "off" or of having no switch activated at all.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Would you make the same argument
about being gay? (I understand your point, and I don't totally disagree, but it seems counter to the arguments of the gay community.)
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Absolutely,
in the sense that most straight people don't think of themselves as "straight" until they've had something different to compare it against. In fact, if we didn't have alternative sexualities, we wouldn't even consider sexuality a "category" - there would be no switch at all.
So people would still be attracted to someone of the opposite sex, just without a switch activated in that direction; likewise, atheism is a default setting that has to be activated for it to have any "meaning" in that sense.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I want to make sure we are not talking
past each other here.
You seem to be making a distinction between people not even having a switch (because they may not have been introduced to a particular concept) versus actually having a switch (AFTER one is introduced to a concept) which is then set to a particular position.
Is there some distinction that you are making between the cases of having no switch or having a switch which is still set to your default, or are these semantically the same thing?
I contend, using this switch metaphor, that the switches are always present but until someone points them out you are just not aware of them. And each person has their individual switches hard wired to some default settings.
While we are on the subject of "default settings", is it your contention that there are universal default settings for these switches (as you seem to suggest with Atheism) or are the defaults specific to the individual's wiring (as the gay community would argue is the case for sexual orientation)?
The metaphor of a switch is potentially a bit misleading as well. In your view, after people have been made aware of the existence of such switches do they have conscious control over their settings or are these actually hardwired into the individuals? It is still possible for people to appear to be making "choices" on setting the switches (as observed externally by lifestyle "choices") when in fact what is actually happening is that people are simply discovering lifestyles that they may not have been previously aware of which are more in line with their hardwired switches and so they adopt them?
The distinction, obviously, is the degree of control one has over the switch's settings. The gay community asserts that for sexual orientation the switch is essentially hardwired, whereas you seem to be suggesting that for the religion the switch it is under conscious control.
I am just trying to understand some of the finer points of what you are articulating.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
I'll try to keep this short,
because I'm afraid I'll end up typing a comment longer than any diaries I've written on here! These are good questions, so I need some space to clarify.
I'm going to back up a bit first and talk about binaries. Culturally we tend to use binaries a lot: night/day, cold/hot (these are binaries about the physical world), happy/sad, straight/gay (these are a little fuzzier, and deal more with human psychology), etc.
Around the mid 20th century, a group of cultural semoticians (actually, linguists. actually, philologists.) working in Prague noted that a lot of what we consider "binaries" aren't really binaries at all, but a default state over which another state has been placed. So, for example, night/day isn't a real binary: night (darkness) is default, and you need something added in order to create a contrast (some source of light). If all the sources of light go out, we'll be plunged in darkness; but there's no such thing as "all the sources of darkness going out". Light is the added quality.
Ditto cold/hot. An absolute zero exists, and heat is only an overlay.
Now, because of this we can also imagine that the existence of one in our consciousness relies on the existence of the other. If there were no light, we'd be plunged in eternal darkness, but we wouldn't notice it, because we'd have no experience with any other state. The darkness still exists (whatever that means), but not within our realm of experience.
With biology it's a little tricker because we can't really make the same claims about absolute states: there's no absolute human to judge by. But we can talk about uneven binaries, or binaries which only exist because they've been initialized by another, opposite state. Sexuality is one I mentioned: if everyone were heterosexual, no one would be heterosexual, because the contrast is what makes naming it necessary. What's more, we wouldn't even think of sexual preference as a category, any more than we have a special word for people who prefer food.
My using "switch" was probably a bad choice, because as you pointed out it brings up the issue of choice - but maybe think of it as a computer hard drive switch whose setting is not made by the computer itself. (Am I creating a theory of Intelligent Programmer? Well... not quite. :)
I think of non-faith/faith the same way, because I've seen no indication that faith is an innate state of being - most people learn about it from their parents, although I admit that someone had to have developed these ideas initially. Still - and this would be an interesting but completely unethical social experiment - if you raised people in an isolated community with no contact with any aspects of the outside world, would they develop a notion of the divine? Yes, it did happen in our own history, but it was a long, long, long process.
So I submit that atheism is the default switch. Those isolated humans will not grow up with a notion of the divine, although they may develop it later as a means of trying to explain phenomena they don't understand. It's still some exterior - something added.
But more to the point, if everyone stopped believing in anything divine, it wouldn't make the human race atheist: it would make them nothing at all, since the very category would disappear (just as "cold" disappears as a category when heat ceases to exist).
Unless there is a God, who'd likely be pissed.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I would have no problem
Voting for an atheist if he or she was the best person for the job!
I would personally think he or she was grossly mistaken about their atheist views as science has proven them wrong. But that would have little barring on my vote.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Science has proved atheism wrong?
When did this happen.
I hope you're not talking about Kirk Cameron's banana
.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Wow
That’s fascinating in its absurdity… still laughing at that one :0)
When science dated the universe it made the idea of Atheism obsolete! Atheists would have a leg to stand on, if and only if, the universe was infinitely old!
I expanded on this down thread in a response to Freedem
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Not sure I agree:
time is not a constant - it can be stretched, sped up, and slowed down just like space. And since time is another dimensional aspect, it can be reduced to zero with no damage to cosmological theory.
(Apologies to the physicists in the room for that crude rendering)
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
ahh but
In that case if all of time and space were present at the origin of the universe and string, supper string, and M theories all seem to support the "all possibilties" and the "we are everything and everything is us" point of view. The God or intelligence or whatever you want to call "it" brought forth the construct of space time and the universe.
beside the in-depth quantum theory - life (as we know it) is linear it has a beginning and an end science in dating the beginning of the universe in linear terms gave way to the notion of someone or something’s willingness to create it.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
You still have the problem of a prexisting critter ...
with the technology, and focus, to say nothing of durability, and crippled ego, to match the current awareness of the universe.
Not hard to imagine in a 300 c.e. world understanding but tough in the present one.
I explained more below.
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.
What Atheism isn't
1. Atheism isn't a religion. From the dictionary:
"Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."
Atheists don't have a series of beliefs in common. They don't have any shared rituals or leaders or even ethical or moral beliefs in common. All they share is a high probability that there are no supernatural forces at work in the universe. Calling it a religion so that it can be treated as a choice doesn't make it so.
2. Atheism hasn't been disproven by "science". All that has happened is that the evidence of a supernatural being has more against it that for it. All of the foundational documents cited by the world's religions were created by people at the time. Those who cite these as evidence are involved is circular reasoning. "X is true because the holy book says so. The holy book says so because it is true."
What distinguishes disbelief from other ideologies is the premise that ideas must be based upon observation and the observations must be credible, repeatable and subject to validation by experimental means. Making judgments based upon evidence would seem to me to be a desirable trait in a political leader. What's the alternative? A person who has a fixed idea and can't change it no matter what happens? Not a good way to deal with changing circumstance in my opinion.
--- Policies not Politics
While you’re correct that Atheism is not...
...or may not be a religion
I contend that atheism is akin to darwinism and could be categorized as a movement not unlike religion that is based on belief and unproved theory!
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Gravity is also an unproven theory?
We know less about it than we do about Evolution. To call it Darwinism is as silly as calling Astronomy Galileoism. It is not like their discoveries weren't "true" or significant, but we have learned a thing or two since then.
The situation is of course way more complex than either man conceived, and indeed Darwin's class conceit put a spin on the reality that has caused endless damage that might have been avoided if A.R. Wallace's paper had been published first
Indeed I do think that many folk, believe all kinds of stuff from the actually true, to the utterly illogical, with no personal discernment one from the others. But that would hardly make any of them a scholar to rely on, any more that one should get their theology studies from a door to door salesman, offering "get out of hell free" cards, on special because the creator of galaxies in greater numbers than beach sand, nonetheless has an ego so weak He cannot exist without shamelessly excessive psychophancy from a major portion of the inhabitants of this particular dust speck.
Actual looking enables the realization that there is a much richer smörgåsbord of possibilities then a simple up/down vote on a Judaic God. That much of the debate goes no further than this, impoverishes it tremendously.
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.
And helicopters on paper aren’t supposed to fly
I realize that!
First of all, You misunderstood or mischaracterized my point. I didn’t “call it Darwinism” I said: “I contend that atheism is akin to Darwinism and could be categorized as a movement not unlike religion”
Second, Darwinism is not “true”, it was a theory that remains unproven to this day. Darwin himself had trouble with his theory later in life but that wasn’t the point. Debating evolution was not the intent of the post.
But since we’re talking about it here’s my take:
Sir Francis Crick disproved Darwin’s theory and the theory of evolution when he discovered that DNA “the human computer” had not changed over the millennia and claimed it was statistically unlikely that DNA spontaneously appeared on Earth.
Science (and this is the point of my posts here) then went on to date the universe, in so doing made the idea of Atheism obsolete! Atheists would have a leg to stand on, if and only if, the universe was infinitely old!
I don’t claim to know who or what created the universe but I do know a lot of people mistake adaptation for evolution here on Earth. And I also believe anyone claiming their particular GOD is the creator and therefore better than others is completely missing the point. Both science and religion seem to latch on to easy theories thus closing off all possibilities which in my view is a disservice to all involved.
Since scientists can date the universe it essentially proves that something created it. The cosmic accident theory is, imo, the weakest!
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Paper Helicopters
If the math doesn't work you aren't looking at the whole system. When you do the math works fine.
I took classes from some of the folk who did the work on how organic chemicals self organized into primitive forms that could evolve forty years ago. Not only is the process caused by the nature of the chemicals, their physical and chemical layout, including nucleotide sequences, but that organic system itself is fairly rigid. All the necessary ones and none of the poisonous ones.
If you happened on another critter from a separate evolutionary path, the specifics of the evolution would be different, but the basics would be close enough you could probably eat it, or vice versa.
When the professor was asked the obvious question, he stated that his own faith was not disturbed, that God obviously (to him) had done magical things elsewhere where he was not the expert, but that there was nothing but ordinary chemistry in his work.
In a universe not much bigger than Europe, people are significant and relevant. In history no more than a few thousand years, every day is a giant tick of the clock, and everything could not have developed in that time (it didn't) or else we would see sizable shifts in our lifetime, like cattle egrets becoming a hundred new species instead of just getting slightly browner.
Under that Universe a presumptive Gardener might indeed pay attention to all the bits and pay special heed to the most ecological transformative critters, messing with his work.
But that is not our Universe, that inch you thought encompassed all time is over 15 miles, just for the earth, and the big bang another hundred miles further, and the human species only the last yard, and looking like someone you might meet in only the last foot.
And space? The Europe that was much of the Universe would be subatomic in a Universe that size.
Suddenly a critter that is complex thoughtful and totally aware, that pre-existed the universe, had the technology to create the universe, did that and mentally encompassed all that universe, and still gets his ego twisted about that subatomic dust speck, particularly with nickel dime and quarter sized galaxies of dust specks scattered like change across a black marble floor (if the floor was 3 dimensional and bigger than Europe) And likely at least dozens of dust specks on any piece of that change with folk smart enough to accomplish that job at any given eye blink.
In that Universe the attentive Gardener is harder to imagine.
The Self Made Man is just not admitting where he got all the parts.