Tuesday Open Thread

The Left trying to fire Bill O'Reilly from Fox News (with an extremely pathetic and clueless Cindy Sheehan diary) is like ____. Fill in the blank.

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The Right Would Rather Lose the War Than Raise Taxes

or implement the draft.

The war against the worst evil of all time, barbaric terrorists, the clash of East vs West, good vs evil, and the Republicans can't win it because they are too busy disrespecting and slandering the American people that don't believe in monopolistic groupthink, and too selfish to raise taxes.

If they really believed in the cause, they wouldn't be so selfish, and would be more than willing to pay higher taxes to support the troops.

As it stands the right only seems to be able to make platitude sandwiches of a myriad of variations of "support the troops we are fighting evil".

Raise my taxes, shriek and run.

No way, I don't support the troops or the war enough to pay more taxes, said the patriotic republican with 'support the troops' bumper sticker on his car.

…………

I agree by 1/2 ...

I have been pondering the left's political rhetoric that the Republicans have not been doing enough to support the troops here at home. Now that the Democrats have a majority in both houses of congress, I think that they should act on this concern since they are now the guardians of the federal budget.

The current budget is WAY too big as it is, so increasing taxes to cover even more benefits seems counter productive.

I would propose that we shift funding out of some of the existing welfare related programs and into increased benefits for the troops both during and after their service to the country.

With limited finances (yea, like almost $3 trillion is limited) we need to make the fundamental decisions about whether to spend money on those who are not contributing to society, or those who volunteer to protect and serve it with their lives. I vote for the latter.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Yeah. Or...

...we could stop fighting a ounter productive war.
That would let us actually reduce the military budget, bring them home from oveerseas to where they can do some good, task them with defense rather than foreign invasions and kill off boondoggles like the ballistic missile defense program.

Doing all that will allow us to have a welfare system approaching that of say the scandinavian countries and vastly increase our general standard of living.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Yes!

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We could do that ...

but I vote no.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Cut Off

We've cut off all men of working age from welfare; now you pretty much have to be pregnant, a child, or disabled to qualify. That is, people who can't "contribute to society", who, I presume, you would have us throw to the wolves.

I have to much pride in my country to let that happen, and that's all welfare comes down to for me: being proud of my country. I don't just see homeless people, I see homeless AMERICANS.

Socialisme ou Barbarie!

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man...

you are a bit too bleeding heart. Relax, it ain't no thang.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Agreed! Americans count!

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Fair enough.

I won't pick on the welfare types then. I open the suggestion up to any of the Democrat supported socialist programs. You guys do the prioritization (from amongst those programs).

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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another useless diary on dkos

like this one by Bob Johnson... Our pathetic front-runners

As if people can wave a magic wand just because they are prez candidates and war would be over. And bashing Edwards because he voted for it? What a joke.

Apparently Bob is degenerating into a silly purity troll using emotional appeals to gather up masses. No wonder OPOL is cheering him on.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Why do you spend so much time on extremes?

Its like are dying to nourish your hate.

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extremes? :)

That's our own Bobby J.!

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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and.....

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isn't he cool and moderate? n/t

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Deflecting

the question by focusing on personality...... so typically republican.

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Actually,

he pretty much nails my feelings on the topic, too. What's "purity troll" about being disgusted with your candidates' milquetoast attitudes towards the war? Or do I get to call you a purity troll every time you complain about the Republican candidates' lackluster presentation?

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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it's purity trolling

when you blame candidates for not doing something that is fairly impossible to achieve at this moment in our Political reality.

I don't do that.

All Bob and most of the rest of dkos are doing is emotional masturbation.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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What's impossible to achieve here?

Reid-Feingold seemed pretty straightforward to me.

Incidentally, another purity troll you know here .

That's how a lot of Democrats right now feel. We have a Congressional majority against an unpopular war and an even more unpopular president, and we're playing tiddlywinks.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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congressional majority

is not enough to override Bush vetoes and the only other option of defunding is obviously not popular enough with the voters and dem representatives themselves for dems to unanimously support...

So since it is impossible to do, blaming those dems who are against the war (and actually supported the politically untenable defunding) is purity trolling.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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I don't call it purity trolling

I just think it is sadly unrealistic.

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Bush can't veto something

that isn't there, and all the Democrats have to do is pass funding in increments instead of as an omnibus spending bill, and never include one that funds the war. The president will be faced with the choice to fund the government or not - any vetoes will only affect individual funding issues, which won't look pretty. It's a relatively simple process.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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I sense your frustration

but how can democrats pass a funding bill like that. The house might be able to, it would never pass the Senate. It would be doa.

Here is a dairy that might give you a tinge of comfort.

Nader is a god again. Reid and Pelosi are worse than Hitler. They sold us out! They are traitors! I want my money back! 2008 is just around the corner and we're going to send them a message. 4 more years of Republican rule will show the Democrats that we mean business. We'll give back the House and Senate, too. After all, there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans.

Or why:

Supreme Court Justice John Yoo thanks you for your support.

Or America's version of realpolitik.

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My reply

to the John Yoo diary is here . You can tell I wasn't amused.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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I absolutely agree with you.

We have a Congressional majority against an unpopular war and an even more unpopular president, and we're playing tiddlywinks.

What does this tell you about your leaders and the promises that they made to you to get elected?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Oh, I agree

but there's no change there. Problem is, for many of is, it's a choice between ineffectual (Democrats) and outright destructive (Republicans). If I have to choose, I think it's pretty clear.

But you don't have to tell me twice about disappointments from the Democrats - I say this as a former and not entirely unapologetic Nader voter. The Democrats have the unfortunate habit of playing "We know you'll vote for us because the alternative is worse" with the population, which is why some of its constituencies - especially ethnic minorities - have grumbled increasingly loudly over the past few years, and rightly so.

By the way, have fun with that mentality this upcoming election cycle, because the Republicans are going to be pushing it hardcore ("Vote whatever we put up, because the Democrats are worse!")

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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I actually kind of agree

I can't figure out why the netroots haven't figured out that they don't have the votes in the Senate to accomplish what they want to at this time.

But I think the dems have slipped by buying into the republican framing of the war.

I am angry that they can't make the case verbally and strongly.

They all need to take a class in language and the media and learn how to talk back and talk right.

Perfect example is this Iraq is like WWll. That is bullshit. Or we stayed in Germany to rebuild for years after WWll. More bullshit. It is a ridiculous thing to say and the dems should say so.

The Republicans sold the frame to cut off the funding, but the dems never had the votes to do it.

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Why did we stay?

Perfect example is this Iraq is like WWll. That is bullshit. Or we stayed in Germany to rebuild for years after WWll. More bullshit. It is a ridiculous thing to say and the dems should say so.

I am curious as to why you think we stayed then?

The Republicans sold the frame to cut off the funding, but the dems never had the votes to do it.

But you have majorities in both houses. You should be able to ram this down the Republican's throats and make them choke on it.

The only thing we have to stop you is maybe a filibuster. But since this is a funding bill I think special rules apply. I don't think that a filibuster applies to funding bills, but I am not sure on that point. Does anyone else know for sure?

Even so, you could always use the "nuclear option".

So if your leaders were serious, they could certainly push for killing the funding for everything ... ammunition, armor, body armor, health care, benefits, etc. There is a lot that they could do ... that they promised to do ... to end the war. The obvious truth, however, is that they won't.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Staying

We stayed in Germany because we had a right to, and the Germans all knew it.

Everyone in Iraq knows our reasons for invading were BS, ergo the occupation is doomed for faliure.

Making an argument for a war is not the same as having a just war. A just war needs no argument; an unjust war needs the most convoluted argument to look sensible, and only then to those who stand to gain political gain from it (the Republicans).

You can usually tell when a government is involved in an unjust war by the fact that the opposition party is opposed to it. Just wars yield no room for dissent, so if there is any, you can make a pretty safe bet that war is a bunch of hogwash.

Socialisme ou Barbarie!

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well that is a bit bogus

You can usually tell when a government is involved in an unjust war by the fact that the opposition party is opposed to it.

1. Most democrats supported the war initially so they liked the "justifications" for this war enough and only got out when the war did not go as well as they liked.

2. You are saying Kosovo was unjust because the opposition party was opposed to it, right? Just checking.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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LOL

All Bob and most of the rest of dkos are doing is emotional masturbation.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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hehe indeed :) n/t

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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hohoho

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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haha Edwards

Edwards charges $55,000 to speak to UC Davis students about poverty

hehehe Edwards is solving his own poverty problems right there!

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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I thought you worshipped capitalism

Or does capitalism only good for Republicans?

Edwards shows us a good example of how it works and can lift people out of poverty. He lifted himself out of poverty quite well.

He is a shining tribute to how to pull yourself up by your bootstraps yet you mock him.

So very typical of the, 'I support the troops but I don't want to pay for them with a tax increase', republicans.

You must be from the 'I worship capitalism unless a democrat does it' crowd.

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oh I love capitalism

but it's such beautiful height of hypocrasy for someone who rails about Two Americas and the gulf between rich and poor to be ripping off Universities ridiculous amounts for his idiotic speeches on the topic.

Class Warrior Edwards... hahaha

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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That's a pretty ridiculous claim

I applaud successful capitalists who use their money to help promote causes for the social betterment of our society.

Cheers to the success of liberal capitalists. May we go forth and thrive!

Unlike some who rally around the support the troops support the war stickers and ....

then shriek and run if they think supporting the war means paying higher taxes.

That is the depths of hypocrisy.

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By your thoughts Ender, how much should Edwards charge?

It's not like he's holding a gun to anyone's head. He's got a price, folks choose to either pay it or buy the services of someone else.

How much does Newt charge? Limbaugh? Ann Coulter? Why don't you kvetch about them?

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because

Newt, Limbaugh, or Ann Coulter don't whine about the rift between Rich and Poor and some other class warfare nonsense. They are proud of making money.

Apologists like Edwards who slam the proper function of capitalism - making money - while at the same time grabbing as much money as possible for themselves are some of the most shameful people there are.

You don't see the difference?

Someone who makes a lot of money and who is at the same time proud of achieving and making money is consistent and good.

Someone who makes a lot of money and who is at the same time blames others who make a lot of money for all the problems and how it hurts the poor is a pathetic hypocrite. Hey Edwards, why don't you give all that money you just made to charities and the poor instead of wasting it on your mansions and haircuts? No? Of course not - all rhetoric and lies.

I support those capitalists who are proud of being capitalists and making it. The apologists like Edwards ruin capitalism.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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You didn't answer my question.

How much should he charge?

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nothing preferably, maybe just his expenses for travelling

if he hates the rich and what they are doing to this country. He should be doing it out of the goodness of his own heart unlike all those other evil rich guys he is slamming.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Just like your hero Ann Coulter? (n/t)

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are you seriously not getting the difference?

Ann Coulter does not slam the rich.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Are you seriously refusing to answer my question?

How much? You suggest just travel fare?

And, no, I don't see a difference between Ann & anyone else on the lecture circuit...other than the others are hopefully sane.

ps - pico, you don't know how hard it is not to call her (m)Ann anymore & make fun of her on those lines. But I'm doing it.

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How does Edwards "slam the rich"?

Where does he say that rich people are evil or bad?

My take is that Edwards slams the growing gap between rich and poor. That's a big difference.

qui tacet consentire

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Edwards wants to help the poor

To Ayn Rand types, that's the same as slamming the rich. After all, if the poor don't deserve misery, then the rich don't deserve opulance.

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eh

most people deserve their lot in life.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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so why then...

...do we have rights at all? Why bother? If you deserve to have guns, for example, then you will; the second amendment is just a bit of fluff getting in the way of your political karma.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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we have rights

so people are not limited and free to change their circumstances.

Most people deserve their lot in life in our society precisely because we have all these freedoms and opportunities to do better and succeed. Other countries? Not necessarily so.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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especially if you are from New Orleans

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your take?

Maybe you should listen to one of his "two americas" speeches. A lot of stupid class warfare.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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the middle class helped

to make this country what it is today.

Stupid class warfare.....!

People without jobs or hope turn to guns and crime.

In case you hadn't noticed people don't have too much respect for the law these days, and crime is on the rise.

They are having more trouble making ends meet, and they see that the rich want more troops for cheap labor, as in an open border......

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I haven't noticed actually.... n/t

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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unsurprising

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He also gave a lot to charity

Something like $350,000.
I don't think the hypocracy charge holds too well as he is walking the walk on that one.

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out of how much? n/t

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Yea.

Isn't Edwards the millionaire in this equation? Shouldn't he be paying them to speak?

Doesn't he care about the rising costs of education for the poor? He should be trying to help them keep costs to the student lower with a donation or something, maybe an annually (and personally) funded scholarship.

What a low-life.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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seriously... hypocritical loser. n/t

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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forgot .....Socialist FAR LEFT loser hyporcit with nice hair.

far far far left loser. And a rich one at that.

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You do make a good point here. n/t

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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some funny stuff today :) n/t

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Wow

You guys with the red colored lines are sure nasty today.

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we are just having some good natured fun :) n/t

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Agreed. n/t

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Ok then - just had to check!

Here are the answers you were looking for about Edwards. Since you seem to love pulling out diaries from Dkos today (ridiculous ones at that!), here is a good one:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/22/113427/510

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Way to stifle the debate, guys

So any politician who wants to talk about ways to reduce poverty in the country must declare a vow of poverty themselves, or be branded a hypocrite? That's not going to happen. Or is that your goal, to prevent anyone from even bringing up the topic? Poverty's not a problem at all, is it, as long as you don't have to hear about it?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Actually I think that the point

is similar to the point made by the Democrats when they argue for a progressive tax code ... he's rich so he should be able to afford to pay his own way to speak at these things.

Why is he charging the poor to talk to them? The issue is not that he is rich, but that he is taking money from the poor when he is already rich.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Charging the poor?

He's not...

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Really?

Who's paying then?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Who's paying?

The taxpayers of California, basically. If that is your definition of "the poor" then you must agree that we should cut taxes for the lowest incomes, and raise them for the highest incomes, no?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Does UC Davis have any students?

Do those student all attend for free on California taxpayer's dime?

Assuming, of course, that UC Davis actually DOES have students, AND assuming that those student actually have to PAY to go there, AND assuming that these students are not from independently wealthy families ... all safe assumptions as far as I can tell ... then one has to ask:

Do any of these paying students need financial aid to attend?

Again, unless UC Davis is some true bastion of free education, one can only assume that the answer is "yes".

So, if Edwards had spoken for free, there would have been an additional $55,000 available for additional financial to the "poor" students of the State of California. So it truly IS fair to say that the poor students are paying his fees, either directly or indirectly, and not the California taxpayers.

Look, I don't want to pick on Edwards particularly, but it does seem kind of low for someone who wants to be President to be charging that kind of fee to speak before a large base of potential voters.

The real irony here, of course, is that he recently proposed "... an educational policy that urged 'every financial barrier' be removed for American kids who want to go to college ...". That policy, however, doesn't seem to include foregoing his confiscatory speaking fees.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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here is the most hilarious statement yet

Lebanese Cabinet OKs action to ‘end the terrorist phenomenon’ in refugee camp :

The Cabinet late Monday authorized the army to step up its campaign and “end the terrorist phenomenon that is alien to the values and nature of the Palestinian people,” Information Minister Ghazi Aridi said.

I almost died laughing at that one.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Terrorism is funny?

qui tacet consentire

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ummm no

saying that terrorism is alien to the values and nature of the Palestinian people is extremely funny though.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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They are being treated like

animals....... which I am sure thrills you.

It is not secret that they are confined, starving and many without income.

Ha ha ha. But to you they deserve it.

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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Cry me a river.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Ha ha ha

torture is good...... for animals like these.

I delight in it. And then when they fall I like to kick them.

I like to call it the moral lowground.

Gaza the gitmo of Israel. Ha ha ha.

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Uh huh.

Animals with rocket launchers and no morals against using them...

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Trapped, caged and unfree

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Iraqi Govt Makes Plans for US Withdrawl

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20070522/a_iraqnews22.art.htm

"The army plans on the basis of a worst-case scenario so as not to allow any security vacuum," Defense Minister Abdul-Qader al-Obeidi said. "There are meetings with political leaders on how we can deal with a sudden pullout."

As violence rages, pressure mounts on Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's government to demonstrate progress on key advances or risk losing American support."

…………

This morning's SF Chronicle had a front page article saying:

Bush could double force by Christmas .

Granted, I've only just started looking over the usual sites, but I don't see this reported so much. Por Que?

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Let's take a moment to laugh at "Dr" Laura Schlessinger.

Ever read Jesus' General? He has a very funny (at Laura's expense, pretense & holier than thou speil) post regarding her perfect son. He is owed credit for being a paratrooper over in Iraq. His mind is something we all have to wonder about though. Apparently, his MySpace bio & blog posts are somewhat less than flattering to Laura's sage upbringing.

I feel bad for Laura, but not so bad that I didn't laugh at her after reading this. She's a bit full of herself sometimes. So times like this when a needle pops her balloon, it's kinda fun in a sad way.

…………

The Senate Judiciary Committe holds hearings today

on the restoration of habeus corpus to EVERYBODY . Yea, they're going to try and remove the stain on our national good name by overturning the blight created by the Military Commissions Act of 2006.

There's hope for us as a nation yet.

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Drip drip drip

Is this as Bush says, more political theater?

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Wolfie makes a parting appointment

Puts the guy who was in charge of electricity in Iraq in charge of World Bank operations there.

DKos diary on it here.

qui tacet consentire

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The left trying to fire Bill OReilly

is like the Catholic Church trying to stop sex before marriage. Well intentioned, but naive.

Bill plays his audience like a pro.

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Instead of trying to fire him

they should just make him look as stupid as he really is.

The right will play it out as the tyranical fascist leftist mob trying to stifle free speech.

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There are no laws against stupidity

unfortunately. Or is that fortunately? ;}

At least he's great fodder for the Daily Show and the Colbert Report. And Media Matters, of course.

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oh yeah

and of course his expose of Media Matters and other Soros insidious influence buying is priceless.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Soros v Murdoch

Capitalism in action.

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not necessarily

Murdoch is out in the open. Soros is establishing all these shadowy leftist organizations to directly pressure Democrats and it smacks of blackmail. You don't bow down to our far-left agenda and we will work to take you down.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Murdoch

probably works behind the scenes too. Big money does that. He's just not a public target like Soros; too powerful.

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Repeat after me

It's Ok If You're A Republican. IOKAR for short.

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I think you are missing

a few letters in that one :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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I can't believe you let it by

"If we only had better funded schools"

;}

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I don't want to be too mean

to my good friend SDD :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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I would have laughed at that one!

Since I have a 100% private school education ;->

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Dang it!

Everywhere else I am known as the Typo Queen. I was *trying* to not reveal that side on this way more serious site. Shoot!

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hahaha

"way more serious site"... hahahaha yeah

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Compared to these:

Dkos - but 75% of the time in Cheers & Jeers
Gaslamp Ball - San Diego Padres blog - you should see some of the non-baseball goofiness there!!
BlueHouseDiaries - Because there is more to life than politics is their mantra.
MotherTalkers - Parenting and kids issues. Very lighthearted.

So yeah - this one tips the serious scales quite a bit more!

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Serious, hmm... some days more than others I would say :p (nt)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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most of us

are pretty cool dudes and dudettes :) We are just serious when we are bashing each other.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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btw.....

I hate your guts....

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whoa...

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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too serous

How about if I just call you a far right totalitarian war apologist

who would rather step on a palestinian child than honor

the constitution of the country that brought you into its fold.

Is that too mean...... ?

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oh just joking...... ha ha ha

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uhhhhh....

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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She's just mad because I won

this morning's argument.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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yeah I hear ya

It sucks losing arguments and she loses a lot :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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I declare myself the winner! :+)

Whatever I say is infalliably correct. Because I said so. And I am always right!

And besides, the people are behind me.

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LOL. :) n/t

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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No you didn't!

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Yes

there seems to be some balance missing here....

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Did you miss the part...

...where his expose turns out to be bogus? As in non-factual? As in Media Matters isn't funded by Soros? As in O'Reilly simply makes stuff up?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I missed that part... n/t

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Of course they missed those minor "facts"

Prefer to nitpick about of wheter Bush actually lied, technically speaking.

George Soros sure seems to be fund every democratic cause these days!

Whether he is or not, for the right is just a minor detail.

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Speaking of facts.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I gave at the office.

Considering I already donated far too much time to helping you get the concept of truth in adertising I think I'll pass. If you still really can't get it then educating you is a lost cause.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Second that!

I already gave at the office.

Funny!

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So, in other words.

You can't even lead by example on this grand scheme of yours? Come on. I even picked a nice easy first case for you to demonstrate your scheme on, Bush lied ... NOT.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I like Bill

He is very entertaining and often on the money. Not all the time but often. He is a bit too centrist and obsessed with traditional values to me but otherwise a good guy.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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He at least

is not afraid of speaking his mind. And he does play his audience well and makes Fox a ton of money.

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yeah he is a no nonsense

kinda dude. I appreciate his candor! :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Suuuuure

No SPIN in the least eh?

What I hate about him is that he claims to be the No Spin guy yet sometimes he gets so caught up in the many twists and turns he's taken that HE loses track! I'd rather listen to a Sean Hannity who is up front about which way he leans than a lying spinner like O'Reilly.

You are right though - he does PLAY to his audience very well. If only they all understood that all he is is an entertainer.

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everyone spins

but I sure like his spin :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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US Muslims - WTF?

Some U.S. Muslims approve suicide hits :

While nearly 80 percent of U.S. Muslims say suicide bombings of civilians to defend Islam can not be justified, 13 percent say they can be, at least rarely..........

That sentiment is strongest among those younger than 30. Two percent of them say it can often be justified, 13 percent say sometimes and 11 percent say rarely.

And is this supposed to make us feel good:

Even so, U.S. Muslims are far less accepting of suicide attacks than Muslims in many other nations. In surveys Pew conducted last year, support in some Muslim countries exceeded 50 percent, while it was considered justifiable by about one in four Muslims in Britain and Spain, and one in three in France.

Instead it tells us something about the state of Islam in the world.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Don't worry, Ender.

They are a religion of peace. [Repeat]

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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hehe yeah I know I know :) n/t

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Ha Ha ha

Why not go after Latinos for their violent gangs. Do a poll. If you are from Mexico and a Catholic and your crossed the border and couldn't find a job, would you be willing to commit a crime, or kill someone to support your starving pregnant wife?

80% of Latinos answered yes to that question.

Therefore 80% of Latinos said they would resort to violence.

Therefore Catholics are a violent.

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I was thinking

about a poll of Christians to see how many thought it was OK to kill gays.

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Or a poll of Texas Republicans

to see how many would like to kill democrats. (Trust me there are some and I think more than a few)

That is why all this rhetoric so does not serve the country well.

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Texas Republicans

are some pretty hardcore cool guys.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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I doubt that the percentage

would be very high, and possibly lower than that of the non-christians.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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What if America was occupied by a foreign army?

Suppose we had lost WWII and the U.S. was occupied by German troops and that those troops were carrying out genocide against Jews and others. Would it be justified for Americans to engage in suicide attacks against civilians in Germany?

qui tacet consentire

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No

It would be justified to attack perpetrators of genocide, obviously, but (a) not random civilians and (b) there's no genocide being carried out against Muslims.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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agreed fully n/t

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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In other words

you are not willing to do whatever it would take to free America from an occupying army.

qui tacet consentire

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touche!

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I think I've proven that I would

and I would try to take out as many enemy soldiers as I can (without killing myself in the process which would preclude me from killing more) but I won't go to the instigating country to blow myself up in the middle of their civilians.

That's barbarism from the stone age.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Correct.

We are not willing to throw our values away just to save them. We are not willing to become the enemy which we seek to overthrow in the process of overthrowing them.

Even so, that which we are willing to do to overthrow the occupying military would be sufficient.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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What good are values

without a culture and a nation that will shape them and pass them down through the generations?

qui tacet consentire

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I agree.

But how would throwing those values out the window serve the goal of "passing them down through the generations?"

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Take Tibet for example

It has been occupied for more than 50 years and its distinct culture and values have been under assault by a Chinese government determined to force it to assimilate. Tibetans have been unwilling so far to engage in guerrilla/terror tactics to force the Chinese out. If they continue to do so, they risk the extinction of their society.

It's the chicken vs. egg thing -- do you have to have values in order to form a society that reflects them or do you form a society from which values emerge? I argue it's the latter, so defense of society is paramount.

History is replete with examples of societies that were unable or unwilling to do what was necessary to defend themselves and subsequently became extinct.

qui tacet consentire

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You are arguing an interesting line here.

Playing (liberal) devil's advocate (alas, I am being redundant), are there not those in our current society that would argue that the United States has brought this entire situation upon ourselves? Does this not, then, argue that our society in it's current form shouldn't be allowed to survive anyway?

What would you say to them?

I am not sure exactly what you are arguing for here other than, perhaps, we would be justified in using homocide bombers to attack our occupiers? (Presumably as a sort of defense of the current terrorism in Iraq?)

If so, why would you seek to defend them?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Thank you:

We are not willing to throw our values away just to save them. We are not willing to become the enemy which we seek to overthrow in the process of overthrowing them.

You've just articulated the essence of the left's opposition to the President's justifications for overstepping his constitutional boundaries. We've been saying this forever. Welcome to the party.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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That's too neat

You're going to pick out just the perpetrators as targets of suicide bombings?

Or is it OK to kill civilians as collateral damage in an attack whose target is, for instance, an Army patrol?

Is it OK to launch suicide attacks against civilian employees of an occupying government?

Is it OK to launch suicide attacks against an occupying power that is relatively benign but is denying your country self-determination? For instance, would it have been OK for colonial Americans to launch suicide attacks against British troops?

And why wouldn't German citizens who prop up a fascist government and support the occupying army and contribute to its ranks be legitimate targets?

Regarding your (b): genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group." There is such a program going on in Iraq. Shiites and Sunnis are targeted and killed solely based on their affiliation in a target group. It's not us doing it, but it's still going on. And many Iraqis consider us responsible for unleashing the civil war -- even though we aren't the ones blowing people up with car bombs.

My own position is this -- if America were occupied by a foreign army, everything about the country carrying out such an occupation would be subject to attack, including civilians.

qui tacet consentire

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Wow

That is just so... wrong.

...if America were occupied by a foreign army, everything about the country carrying out such an occupation would be subject to attack, including civilians.

Holding civilians responsible for the actions of their government is ridiculous. What if the government in question is a dictatorship? Some farmer out in the middle of nowhere deserves to die because the despot in charge of his country decided to invade the U.S.? Indefensible!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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What if they aren't?

What if the government in question is a dictatorship?

Look I've internalized the fact that I'm a terrorist target simply because I'm an american. Certainly I'm no priority target because I'm not a big name or famous, but there are certain parts of the world where I would not go because if I did there's a reasonable chance I'd be killed for my nationality.

And you know what? I understand why it is that way.

I don't really like it and I'd love to change the things that my country does that make me a target but when april rolls around I still pay my taxes. Which means just like any munitions factory I am supporting my country's efforts to kill and oppress overseas (and occasionally at home).

One aspect of having such a vastly superior military, and of being just so eager to use it on brown people, is that our enemies choose to strike back through nonconventional warfare. What are we supposed to say? "No you can't do that!" The "rules" are always made by the militaryily strong and hence made to favor the militarily strong. That was true back in the American Revolution when we were the geurillas using unacceptable tactics. It's true now.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Except that it's not about

subjective and arbitrary rules, it's about fundamental decency and long-standing accepted norms of warfare, including not targeting civilians, not executing prisoners, not killing truce parties, etc. By the "rules" of the British, perhaps the tactics used in the American Revolution were "unacceptable" in that they were unusual (e.g., not fighting in formation), but by any objective measure, we were far better at abiding by the principles of just war .

Maybe saying "No you can't do that!" doesn't accomplish much, but at least it clarifies the lack of legitimacy in certain tactics, such as suicide bombings targeting civilians. It does help when we make an effort to ensure our own behavior matches the standards (e.g., with torture).

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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The problem comes

when you're playing a zero-sum game: elimination doesn't give one much room to maneuver in terms of calls to higher values. What we're talking about now isn't that kind of case, but I remember a conversation I had with a colleague about the acts of Chechen terrorists in Russia, such as taking a school hostage. If what they're fighting against is absolute elimination as a people (and today's Russia has never said this explicitly, but Russian history is replete with examples of targeted genocide against Chechnya) then we've essentially got, as I said, a zero-sum game, and all bets are off.

That's an especially tricky example, but zero-sum doesn't have to mean genocide. It's an old military strategy horse, but demanding an "unconditional surrender" is a good example of why this is such a problem. If you demand unconditional surrender, you've given your opponent every incentive to fight to the last soldier, and possibly the last civilian. What's more, if they know that the terms of unconditional surrender involve heavy penalties against their own political and military leaders, how can you expect them to play "clean"? They're already going down hard, right?

I'm not saying any of this to justify dirty warfare, especially against civilians, but to explain why we shouldn't be surprised sometimes.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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thats historical revisionism...

Except that it's not about
subjective and arbitrary rules, it's about fundamental decency and long-standing accepted norms of warfare, including not targeting civilians, not executing prisoners, not killing truce parties, etc.

No different than when the right claims marriage in its modern form goes back centuries.

These supposedly long accepted rules of warfare date back no ffurther than the geneva conventions and certainly haven't been perfectly adhered to since then.

By the "rules" of the British, perhaps the tactics used in the American Revolution were "unacceptable" in that they were unusual (e.g., not fighting in formation), but by any objective measure, we were far better at abiding by the principles of just war.

That's pretty easy when the fight is taking place among your countrymen. How careful would we have been of civilians had we been invading england? As it is there were a number of american tories who were burned out of their homes for supporting the british.

Maybe saying "No you can't do that!" doesn't accomplish much, but at least it clarifies the lack of legitimacy in certain tactics, such as suicide bombings targeting civilians.

And why do we get to set what is and isn't legitimate? By what right? Force of arms apparently, and then we choose that what is right is to fight in such a way that only force of arms can prevail.

Awfully convenient, that.

Any oppressed people who buy into that garbage deserve to be oppressed for being too stupid to figure out they've been had. The Geneva Conventions apply to one group and one group only: the signatories. We have no right dictating how others may fight for their freedom.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Tell you what...

let's take a poll of, say, republicans and ask them if it is every justified to bomb civilians. What do you want to bet the ones who say it can be justified are way more than 13%?

I'm just saying is all...

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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of course it's justified

to bomb civilians when you are bombing terrorists and other enemies where civilians are in the way. You don't stop the war just because civilians are in the way. But that doesn't mean that civilians are the primary target.

That is not equivalent to blowing yourself up to kill as many civilians as possible as a strategy in it of itself. Suicide bombing can only be justified by moral animals.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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I see.

It's always possible to find the reason why when your side does it it is okay, but it is totally unacceptable from others.

That is not equivalent to blowing yourself up to kill as many civilians as possible as a strategy in it of itself.

A lot (not all) of suicide bombers actually target enemy military units. The civilians are just casualties.

So by your logic those suicide bombers are just fine. And you're not even muslim.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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most

suicide bombers target civilians. Check that. It's a fact in Iraq and Israel and pretty much wherever it occurs.

Vast majority of suicide bombers target civilians.

Here is the moral difference:

Targeting civilians for the sake of killing civilians to create chaos and death - immoral

Targeting terrorists and other enemies of US and accidentally killing some civilians - unfortunate but for a good cause and certainly not immoral.

Islamist jihadist mentality of killerizing infidels is as bad as the worst this planet has ever produced.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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The very first "car bomb"

was detonated on Wall Street in 1920 by Mario Buda, an anarchist Italian immigrant who wanted to strike a blow against the corporate and political hierarchy. It was actually a horse-drawn wagon and it killed 33 people.

By your standard, Buda's action was justified because he was targeting a political system and civilians just happened to be in the way.

qui tacet consentire

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didn't you see me say

terrorists and enemies of US?

How would that justify targeting just any political system and especially US?

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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War is hell

If your perceived enemy has a vastly superior striking power, then terrorism is certainly an effective way to wage war.

In all battlezones one risks one's own death and the unfortunate collatoral damage.

When you kill people and you don't die, that makes the killing less barbaric?

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it's killing of the civilians

that is barbaric. Needless to say when I am gonna be sniping the enemies, I would be targeting their soldiers and leadership.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Unless you are in an airplane

dropping bombs.

War is hell.

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kinda hard to do

when you are occupied...

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Unless you want to win

It worked in Japan.

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I guess they don't want to destroy

the US Embassy of palacial proportions that they have spent billions on in Iraq.

Many of the Iraqi's have already left the country, so they could bomb Anbar province to get rid of al_Queda and Iranian friendly Iraqi's.

War is messy.

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You mean like those

Israeli public buses and cafe's? What kind of military targets are those?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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What if

the bus has 10 or 12 soldiers on it along with 20 or 30 civilians? Would it be a legitimate target?

qui tacet consentire

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Perhaps.

But I don't recall any incidents where that was the case. I do rememeber many such incidents where the targets were civilians.

Can you find any examples? Do you doubt that I can find examples of my assertion?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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That's not my point

My point in this entire discussion is hypothetical -- that there are cases where suicide attacks -- even attacks that kill civilians -- are justified.

qui tacet consentire

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There is a distinction, though ...

between civilians who die as an "accident" as part of attacking a truly military target, and specifically having the primary target being innocent civilians.

I know it doesn't matter much to those who die, but there is clearly a distinction in intent here. I believe that in most cases the homocide bombers have their primary target as civilians (based on the observation that they are generally blowing up places where there are NOT a lot of military personnel). Many homocide bombers end up killing ONLY civilians, even in Iraq. Some of the largest homocide attacks were against civilians who were waiting to sign up for jobs with the law enforcement agencies. In Israel, 95% or more of the bombers are only out to kill civilians as a means of generating terror within the civilian population.

In a twist of irony here, any military personnel who are actually killed in these attacks are the terrorist's "collateral damage".

Edit:

Do you believe that the 9/11 attack on the WTC falls into the category of being a legitimate military target or an attack on innocent civilians?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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There are many distinctions

There is also a distinction between a suicide attack that targets civilians with the intent of fomenting a sectarian war or for the purpose of wiping out another group and a suicide attack against the civilian population of a country that is occupying your own country.

In the first example, the goal is to kill as many of the other group as possible. In the second, the goal is to force the populace to bring pressure on the government to end the occupation.

Edit: Regarding the 9/11 attacks, al Qaeda justifies that as a legitimate response to America's troop presence in Saudi Arabia and the intrusion of Western values, blah blah blah.

If al Qaeda had attacked some other country, I suppose we could engage in the academic exercise of debating its legitimacy, but they didn't. They attacked us. Right or wrong this is our country and our society and our culture and its defense comes before whatever legitimate or semi-legitimate grievances someone else might have against us. In other words, whether their grievances were or were not legitimate becomes irrelevant once they attack us.

qui tacet consentire

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Do civilians have an obligation to stay out of the way?

I mean if you know that the terrorists have built your Mosque on top of a weapons cache, should you still be going to that Mosque?

If you know that the terrorists have built your child's school on top of a weapons cache or a rocket launcher, should you still be sending your kids to that school?

If you or you kid gets killed because the terrorist's enemy blows up those legitimate military targets (weapons caches) who is to blame? The terrorist's enemy or the terrorists who put their weapons caches in these places specifically to create collateral damage?

Edit:

And for all you fans of applying the Geneva Conventions to the terrorists, don't they say something about not doing these very things?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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interesting from Bob Kerrey former Dem Senator on Iraq

h/t Redstate.

The Left's Iraq Muddle :

American liberals need to face these truths: The demand for self-government was and remains strong in Iraq despite all our mistakes and the violent efforts of al Qaeda, Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias to disrupt it. Al Qaeda in particular has targeted for abduction and murder those who are essential to a functioning democracy: school teachers, aid workers, private contractors working to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure, police officers and anyone who cooperates with the Iraqi government. Much of Iraq's middle class has fled the country in fear.

With these facts on the scales, what does your conscience tell you to do? If the answer is nothing, that it is not our responsibility or that this is all about oil, then no wonder today we Democrats are not trusted with the reins of power. American lawmakers who are watching public opinion tell them to move away from Iraq as quickly as possible should remember this: Concessions will not work with either al Qaeda or other foreign fighters who will not rest until they have killed or driven into exile the last remaining Iraqi who favors democracy.

The key question for Congress is whether or not Iraq has become the primary battleground against the same radical Islamists who declared war on the U.S. in the 1990s and who have carried out a series of terrorist operations including 9/11. The answer is emphatically, "yes."

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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uh huh.

American liberals need to face these truths: The demand for self-government was and remains strong in Iraq despite all our mistakes and the violent efforts of al Qaeda, Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias to disrupt it.

Great, if the demand is so strong there's no reason they need us there. We can bug out and the popular will shall prevail.

Much of Iraq's middle class has fled the country in fear.

Wait, the demand for self governance is overwhelming and yet people are fleeing the country? It's almost as if the author didn't have any idea what he was talking about and so contradicted himself in the very first paragraph.

With these facts on the scales, what does your conscience tell you to do? If the answer is nothing, that it is not our responsibility or that this is all about oil, then no wonder today we Democrats are not trusted with the reins of power.

Really? Which party unambiguously won the last election?

Hint- not the republicans. The Dems picked up seats in both chambers of congress and added several new Dem governors.

Which party is more trusted on national security matters according to the latest polling? Dem's are up 2% compared to Reps
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/on_iraq_50_trust...

But 2% is probably within the marginof error so let's ask which party is more trusted with regards to Iraq? Here the dems are at 50% compared to the reps 38%. (same source)

Kerrey's contention above is simply wrong.

American lawmakers who are watching public opinion tell them to move away from Iraq as quickly as possible should remember this: Concessions will not work with either al Qaeda or other foreign fighters who will not rest until they have killed or driven into exile the last remaining Iraqi who favors democracy.

Al Qaeda in Iraq is doomed the minute we leave. We've already seen that in Anbar where after we got out of the province the local tribes descended upon the other foreigners.

Again Kerrey has no knowledge of the topic.

The key question for Congress is whether or not Iraq has become the primary battleground against the same radical Islamists who declared war on the U.S. in the 1990s and who have carried out a series of terrorist operations including 9/11. The answer is emphatically, "yes."

No the answer is in fact "no." The primary battleground is further east in Afghanistan and Pakistan, since that's where AQ's leadership resides. Kerrey is at least consistently incomptent to speak on the matter, seeing as he has no understanding of our opponent, no idea how to fight them and no concept of how the war is actually faring.

Nebraska democrats are usually less than sterling.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Should the Government be spying on MORE of it's citizens?

That's the case Mike McConnell, the Bush administration's Director of National Intelligence has made . FISA is too old he says. Glenn Greenwald says:

"has a remarkably dishonest Op-Ed in The Washington Post this morning, in which he argues for completely unspecified "updates" and "changes" to FISA in order to expand -- yet again -- the Government's powers of eavesdropping on Americans. McConnell's entire argument for expansion of surveillance powers rests on a patent falsehood."

That lie is that FISA hasn't been updated since it's inception in 1978. Really, the Administration doesn't want anyone to tell it no, ever:

"The same President who demanded changes to FISA in light of the terrorist threat, who received all the changes he demanded, and who then assured the nation he had all the surveillance tools he needed under the law, then proceeded -- the very same month -- to eavesdrop on Americans in violation of that law. Then, once caught, he sought to excuse his lawbreaking by claiming that the law (which his own administration re-wrote and heralded as sufficient) was somehow inadequate."

How do you like your police state? With a side of hash browns(hirts) or plain(ole totalitarian)?

…………

No.

Just spying on the terrorist sympathizers is sufficient in my book. More than that would just be "wrong". :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I was gonna answer "yes"

but your answer is better.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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He he.

I still got your back, Ender! Even if you aren't part of the GOP collective anymore! :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I am still part of the larger

right wing "collective" hehehe

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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What you and GoRight fail to see is that this Administration

has files on both of you. You Ender, because you run a blog with mucho progressives spouting off. You GoRight, because you post on a blog with many progressives.

So...as long as you don't mind being part of that intel, go to town. Those of us who think the government should have to follow the laws we laid down....well, we're not too keen on that kind of thing.

& even if you say "So what?!? I'm not doing anything, let them!"...well, that isn't how it ends up. Sometimes it ends badly just because you have a file, doesn't matter what the file says. On that note....welcome to the club boys! Hope you like your totalitarianism raw and wild.

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dude

I hope that tin hat fits snugly... The government would have a lot more problems if they kept track of and cared about minor nobodies like us.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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In this sense I hope I am a nobody.

Just make sure not to attend any war protests and you should be okay....:+)

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