Better Body Armor Being Blocked
Crossposted from dKos This is a piece by Eric Massa posted yesterday on dKos that I had a hand in. The comments to the dKos piece are really good. If this piece interests you then you will want to take a look at the dKos comments. I know some of you saw it there yesterday but I thought it might make for some good discussion here today. Mike P
First, thank you to all of you for the support, both financial and otherwise. Our fundraising totals aren't quite complete yet so I will talk about all that later once the totals are done. My staff and I have been discussing this issue for over a month now. I feel this is a very important issue and one that is related to my New Bill of Rights written to fight against corporate interests taking precedence over the interests of the people. Our troops have a right to have the best body armor available. But they aren't getting it because corporate interests are preventing them from getting it.
Criminally Negligent Homicide. That’s what you get charged with in the civilian world if you intentionally fail to do your job properly and someone dies as a result. Last year a study, discussed here and here
, found that better body armor could have saved a lot of the troops killed in Iraq. If better armor was available and someone(s) intentionally failed to provide that armor, then maybe it’s time to start discussing this topic as criminally negligent homicide.
My staff and I have put together some research on this topic and we have invited Roger Charles, President of Soldiers for the Truth and a prolific researcher on this topic. We recommend what you will find at the SFTT.org page on body armor
. We also consulted with Nathaniel R. "Nat" Helms, former editor of DefenseWatch at SFTT.org (see list of articles by him here
) and the author of My Men Are My Heroes: The Brad Kasal Story
, who is also a long time researcher on this topic. Four of his pieces on the subject are must-reads: Is America's Best Getting America's Best Part I
; Is America's Best Getting America's Best Part II
; Is America's Best Getting America's Best.... In Conclusion
; and Army Scientists Allegedly Skewing Ballistic Data to Justify Using Magnesium In Body Armor
.
Part I: The Superiorities of Dragon Skin
1. Superior Coverage of Vulnerable Areas
Back to that criminal negligence mentioned above, the first thing about Dragon Skin that you need to know is that it covers more area than the Interceptor armor. Here is what DefenseReview editor David Crane wrote about it:
"Understand, again, that we're talking about a unique and superior version of level IV body armor/ballistic protection, not your conventional, run-of-the-mill NIJ [National Institute of Justice] level IV SAPI protection. Pinnacle Armor's unique Level IV "+" flexible ceramic hard armor will successfully take many more hits than conventional/standard NIJ Level IV SAPI plates, and provides coverage over a much greater surface area. In other words, it provides for more complete torso coverage, all the way up to total coverage."
As Nat Helms has written, "In the simplest terms it means the wearer's entire upper torso, including the neck area, can be protected by body armor superior to any Level III and Level IV body armor made in the world." This seems directly related to the above discussion of how better armor might have saved some of our troops. Coverage of vulnerable areas is a critical capability.
This was also mentioned in the NBC report, in an interview of the inventor of the Interceptor armor currently used by the army (link ):
MYERS: And you say Dragon Skin is better?
MAGEE: Yes. And I think anybody in my industry would say the same thing were they to be perfectly honest about it.
Why? He says more stopping power and more coverage.
According to Magee, the Army’s Interceptor uses four rigid plates to stop the most lethal bullets, leaving some vital organs unprotected. Dragon Skin — with discs that interconnect like Medieval chainmail — can wrap most of a soldier’s torso, providing a greater area of maximum protection.
It is interesting to note that this particular aspect of comparison was avoided in the Army’s response to the NBC report here . The spokesperson implied that Interceptor armor gives more coverage but you will notice that there is no direct comparison with Dragon Skin:
IBA, the newest generation of multiple-threat body protection, features a modular design with pieces that work together to provide a personal shield against bullets and fragments, including those from improvised explosive devices (IEDs). Protective inserts can withstand multiple small-arms hits. Throat and groin protectors can be attached, and recent upgrades add protection to the upper arm and underarm areas. The overall design greatly reduces the number and severity of wounds.
2. Superior Mobility
The second thing you need to know about Dragon Skin is that it allows for superior mobility. I will just quote from Mr. Helms here :
An Army captain currently serving in Ramadi, Iraq told DefenseWatch that his Interceptor OTV body armor was not only a bad design, but dangerous to the wearer for a variety of reasons that had nothing to do with ballistic integrity.
"The body armor we have now weighs us down like turtles. It is difficult to run fast enough if you need to catch anyone on foot. If anyone falls into water over his head, he better be a very strong swimmer or he may be as good as dead. Getting out of a cramped up-armored Humvee is bad enough; it is rarely done quickly anymore. One simply does not have the flexibility.
I am over six feet tall. And to get out of a Humvee I need to bow my head down to get past the threshold. You can't bend forward with the armor and you need to unsnap the throat protector.
Many missions I have been on lately have been night operations so I have night vision goggles attached to the front of my helmet, which increases the need to duck when I get out of the Humvee.
When I was first issued the IBA [Interceptor Body Armor], I semi-joked that this had better stop enemy rounds because it significantly reduced my mobility.
The current fiasco [Nathaniel R.] Helms describes reminds me of the book (and movie of the same name) - The Pentagon Wars.
Flexible, reusable body armor is what the troops need, not the current system. I look forward to seeing Dragon Skin (or something similar) fielded to the troops in the very near future."Pinnacle Armor Company, the makers of Dragon Skin body armor, claims their product is so flexible it can be wrapped around a basketball. Soldiers for the Truth Foundation (SFTT) president Roger Charles wore the 26.5-pound full coverage large size Dragon Skin vest for more than four hours during a recent test with only minimal discomfort. This reporter has worn the OTV system for approximately the same length of time and found it uncomfortable, bulky, and restrictive.
NBC also mentioned this in passing but did not highlight it (link ):
An active duty soldier, who asked us to conceal his identity, told NBC he wore Dragon Skin on certain missions, with the full knowledge of his commanders.
"I wore it and I saw other people wearing it... It conforms to your body, it gives you more mobility," he said.
President Bush keeps talking about listening to the soldiers on the ground. Well there you have it. And the connection between superior mobility and staying alive in combat is obvious enough that I shouldn’t have to elaborate here.
I will note that the army response to the NBC report alluded to the importance of mobility but only discussed it in terms of overall weight, which we address below (link ):
Dragon Skin is also operationally unsuitable because of its greater weight and bulk and compared with the Army's body armor. Depending on size, Pinnacle is 46% to 70% heavier than the current IBA. "We are trying to make the armor lighter, not heavier," Brown said.
3. Out-performed Interceptor Armor in Classified Tests
That’s all well and good, but what all those failures the army keeps talking about? Here is what the army claims about May 2006 test results it released in response to the NBC report:
Driving the decision to release May 2006 test data is an assertion by Pinnacle Armor Inc. of unfair treatment. Pinnacle, based in Fresno, Calif., is the manufacturer of Dragon Skin SOV3000 body armor, which Brown said failed "catastrophically" when it was tested by HB White Labs in Street, Md., one of two labs in the nation certified by the National Institute of Justice.
"It failed to stop 13 of 48 [first- or second-round] test shots," Brown said of the testing at H.P. White. "The CEO and vice president of Pinnacle witnessed it. One bullet penetration is cause for failure to meet the Army's standard."
Pinnacle's Dragon Skin SOV3000 body armor was subject to the same fair and independent testing, in a variety of environmental conditions, as products from the six producers of the Army's current body armor. All six of the current producers passed every test with zero failures, which is the standard.
Contrary to the claims about the May 2006 tests, there are older tests which show just the opposite. Mr. Helms, as well as Mr. Charles, has seen and written about classified documents that show that Dragon Skin Body Armor did not fail any tests, as the army has suggested, but actually passed a number of tests that the army isn’t admitting to. Murray Neal, CEO of Pinnacle Armor, maker of Dragon Skin, mentioned this here in a response posted at SFTT.org:
The Army has test data, including ballistic data it has classified "SECRET," and non-classified ballistic data that proves Dragon Skin is in fact superior in every way to Interceptor.
As Mr. Helms noted here , in part of the tests that have been classified, Dragon Skin performed all the way up to NIJ Level V standards, far beyond the current armor given to our troops:
U.S. Army - Level V
7.62 x 54R mm 187 GR, steel case, armor piercing incendiary BS40 Classified
7.62 x 51 mm GR, M948 Classified
7.62 x 51 mm 126.5 GR, M993 Classified
5.56 x 45 mm 52.5 GR, M995 Classified
If you’re not familiar with this ammo, find yourself someone who is and have them explain this to you. This is incredibly powerful weaponry that the current body armor being supplied to our troops doesn’t come close to stopping. But Dragon Skin does. Yet more info for that criminally negligent homicide charge.
Part II: Supposed Deficiencies of Dragon Skin?
1. Failed May 2006 Ballistic Testing?
This is the alleged failure that the Army is metaphorically hanging its hat on while it hides the classified tests mentioned above. The details of the supposed failures can be found in the rebuttal by Murray Neal here . In the Army response to the NBC report, this is what the current Army spokesperson, Brig. Gen. R. Mark Brown, who was not present at the May 2006 tests, said about Dragon Skin (link
):
"It failed to stop 13 of 48 [first- or second-round] test shots," Brown said of the testing at H.P. White. "The CEO and vice president of Pinnacle witnessed it. One bullet penetration is cause for failure to meet the Army's standard."
Murray Neal, the above-mentioned CEO who was indeed present at the testing, explains why each of the supposed 13 failures is not a failure according the Army’s own testing standards here , in the same document where he mentions the classified tests.
In summary, the only actual first shot penetration of the armor was the first round fired. And Karl Masters, who was the test director, actually found it not to be a valid penetration according to the standards used. Four other second shot penetrations fell within the parameters for retesting but were not considered valid penetrations without that retesting, which was never done. Eight other alleged penetrations were not of the actual armor but of the vest used to hold the armor.
Furthermore, in the same document Mr. Neal explains that army official Col. John Norwood, who now works for the company that makes Interceptor Armor, told him after the May 2006 tests that it was not the ballistics portion of the test that Dragon Skin had failed but rather the rigidity and weight requirements (link ):
We were given some additional insight by Col. John Norwood just before we were to depart the testing facility. He said that we did not fail the ballistic test just the specifications. When asked which ones we were told the weight and rigid requirements. That rigid requirement of a plate vs. a flexible panel system.
So, according to Col. Norwood, Dragon Skin basically failed not because it wasn’t better armor but because it isn’t the same as Interceptor.
It is worth noting here that on March 2006, an Army representative claimed that Dragon Skin had also failed to pass Air Force testing and had thus been recalled. The truth of that attempt at deception, and how the mainstream press took the bait, can be found here .
2. Failed Heat Tests?
After the NBC piece, it became patently obvious to anyone paying attention that under normal conditions Dragon Skin Armor is indeed superior to Interceptor Armor. That left many of us wondering if Dragon Skin might have failed a heat test. In the Army response to the NBC piece there was mention of testing "in a variety of environmental conditions." There has been only one failure of any kind in all the tests. ONE. And here it is from a summary by SFTT.org president Roger Charles:
One Dragon Skin vest did experience an anomaly during one temperature test. At +160-degrees Fahrenheit the adhesive that holds the protective disks in place did not function properly and did allow 1 and 3/4 inches movement of disks. Examination of this anomaly determined that the adhesive provided to Pinnacle Armor by a sub-contractor did not meet specifications, and thus was considered an aberrant event. (Subsequently, Pinnacle Armor upgraded the adhesives, and had vests using this upgraded adhesive shot at +160 and +180-degrees Fahrenheit to demonstrate the enhanced level of performance of Dragon Skin, a level above that required by the requirements of ESAPI FAT protocols and procedures.)
But, the Army slime teams' brazen and bold misrepresentations are demonstrated again by data that was withheld from the congressional briefings: Another Dragon Skin vest was temperature tested at H.P. White during the same testing period. This vest was tested at +250-degrees Fahrenheit according to the ESAPI FAT protocols, and did not fail. The adhesive performed as designed.
Mr. Neal also discusses the supposed heat test failures here . There was only one vest that did fail and that failure was not because of the failure of the armor but because of inadequate adhesive from a sub-contractor. Another vest withstood 250 degrees Fahrenheit. This is why, as Mr. Neal noted here
, "test director Karl Masters called it (the one failure) an anomaly as the other temperature tests at -60 degrees (F), +120 degrees (F) and at +250 degrees (F) did not fail."
3. Too Heavy?
We have already mentioned that Dragon Skin Armor provides superior mobility, a fact the Army discussions (link ) after the NBC piece have intentionally ignored while they implied it was so much heavier that it limited mobility in comparison to Interceptor Armor:
Dragon Skin is also operationally unsuitable because of its greater weight and bulk and compared with the Army's body armor. Depending on size, Pinnacle is 46% to 70% heavier than the current IBA. "We are trying to make the armor lighter, not heavier," Brown said.
This claim by the Army is not new. SFTT Foundation President Roger Charles previously eviscerated that claim here :
One almost laughable claim involved an especially cheesy attempt to compare the weight of a Pinnacle Armor SOV 3000 vest to an Interceptor Body Armor vest.
The congressional staff was told that a Dragon Skin SOV 3000 weighs 47.5 pounds. True. For a size Extra-Large (full-torso wrap) vest.
The congressional staff was told that an Interceptor Body Armor vest weights 28 pounds. Not true. For a Medium size vest, the weight is 31.1 pounds.
If you look at the IBA web site under PE-SOLDIER, you'll see the Medium components -- the OTV, ESAPI for front and rear, and side plates -- total 25.7 pounds.
The more credible figure is the 31.1 pounds, based on data presented at an Army Industry Day briefing on 7 March 2006, and based on similar data from Marine Corps Systems Command provided to Pinnacle Armor.
If you compare a size Medium SOV 3000, weighing 34.2 pounds, the weight advantage is to Interceptor Body Armor by 3.1 pounds.
But, what protective advantage does Dragon Skin SOV 3000 provide for this extra weight? How about 182 square inches of additional ballistic protection against Level IV rounds!
To put it succinctly, Dragon Skin is a little heavier but not as much as the Army claims. And you get a lot of extra coverage for the extra weight.
4. False Claims of NIJ Standards?
Here is what one current army spokesperson, tester Karl Masters, previously said in comments about Dragon Skin in a "professional soldier" forum here :
I recommend that you do some more research on the product you advocate. I invite your attention to the Federal Trade Commision website. A search on body armor will illustrate that the FTC has taken a rather dim view of body armor manufacturers that misrepresent the National Institute of Justice compliance status of their products.
The sun is about to shine on the Army's rationale for issuing the body armor Safety of Use Message. Get your suncreen ready.
I'll be watching to see if you set the record straight, or if I will have to do it for you. Welcome aboard.
Karl
I know it's hard to believe, but there are body armor manufacturers that make performance claims that can't be backed up on the range. They sometimes even mark their products as NIJ level 3 certified when they are not, or distort facts relating to fielded systems to make thier own product look more attractive.
Both quotes seem to refer to the NIJ certification of Dragon Skin at Level 3. It did take a long time to get official certification, but it wasn’t because of the inferiority of dragon skin as a product, as Mr. Masters implied. Since Mr. Masters made his ironic claim about the sun shining soon, Dragon Skin has been officially certified by NIJ. A detailed explanation of the length of the certification process is here . Perhaps the sun will shine instead on the refusal of certain persons to tell the truth about Dragon Skin?
5. Cost
One important aspect of Dragon Skin vs Interceptor is the price. Dragon skin currently costs about three times as much. I believe our soldiers deserve better even if it costs more. But, as Pinnacle Armor president Murray Neal explained to Mr. Helms in a conversation relayed to us, he believes that if he could ramp up production on a much larger scale than the one his current level of business permits, he could get his price per unit down close to that of the Interceptor Armor. I believe he should have a chance to do just that.
Part III: Who Lied about Dragon Skin and Why
It is not my goal today to make a list of persons who might be charged with criminally negligent homicide in the deaths of many of our troops who would probably not have died if they had been wearing Dragon Skin. SFTT.org has named four of those they believe responsible here and another here
. NBC quoted former Army expert on Dragon Skin, Nevin Rupert, who says he was fired for supporting Dragon Skin and that because Dragon Skin was not developed by the Army, some officials considered it a threat to funding of Interceptor and other Army programs.. He believes Army officials at the lower levels are responsible (link
):
Nevin Rupert, a mechanical engineer and ballistics expert, was for seven years the Army’s leading authority on Dragon Skin. Now a whistleblower, he says the Army’s timing wasn’t coincidental.
RUPERT: I believe there are some Army officials at the lower levels that deliberately tried to sabotage it.
MYERS: What possible motive would Army officials have for blocking a technology that could save lives?
RUPERT: Their loyalty is to their organization and maintaining funds.RUPERT: It wasn’t their program. It threatened their program and mission funding.
This brings us to the discussion of motives. The suggested motive here is to protect program and mission funding. Money is a likely prime motivator. Another important piece of the puzzle is a statement made to Pinnacle Armor CEO Murray Neal by James Zheng, and witnessed by others who later confirmed the statement to Defense Watch (link ), that Dragon Skin would never be fielded unless the technology and intellectual property were signed over to Natick Soldier Systems Center:
Witnessed statements were later made the same year to Pinnacle president Murray Neal - the inventor of Dragon Skin armor and its patent holder - by Natick Soldier Systems Center's program scientist Dr. James Zheng, who reportedly said, "The SOV Dragon Skin system will never be fielded unless the technology and intellectual property are turned over to Natick Soldier Systems Center," according to sources who spoke with DW upon assurances of anonymity.
It is also worth noting that the order to cease use of Dragon Skin (March 2006 ) was 2 months before the test the Army says that order was based on, as Lisa Myers pointed out to the ignorant Army spokesperson here
. This suggests that the Army might have been using the Cease Use order to force Pinnacle Armor to sign over property rights.
I am going to close this section with a quote from a piece by Nat Helms (link ):
Another of the many veterans of the procurement wars who talked to DefenseWatch on assurances of anonymity shrugged off the grubby realities and disappointments of selling body armor as part of the program – much like death in war, he said. The formula for success in the body armor game, he explained, is short enough to recite in one breath. Successful players stay in the background, throw the retiring brass a gold-plated bone to gnaw on, keep a few lobbyists around to put their names in the ring, and make big campaign contributions to the influence peddlers. Payback comes from selling the Pentagon a product relatively easy to produce that earns a high rate of return and is good enough to cheaply get the job done. The Interceptor OTV body armor developed by the US Army is a text book example, he claimed.
For more info on who is getting donations from the maker of the current inferior body armor, we recommend this diary and this one
from occams hatchet
.
The Air Force Maneuver
While we were researching this topic, it came to light that Air Force officials were looking to ban Pinnacle Armor from future sales pending an investigation that it falsely claimed to sell them NIJ level three certified body armor. (link ) Since the armor has now been officially been certified as level III, this seems an odd claim to make. But the timing is not coincidental. The army has just extended a proposal for better body armor that is flexible. The original closing date for the solicitation was June 27; that has been extended 30 days. (link
) The kicker is that, by bringing this charge against Pinnacle Armor now, Pinnacle has been listed on http://www.epls.gov
, the Excluded Parties List System’s Web site, after Air Force Materiel Command recommended June 8 that the Air Force bar Pinnacle from signing new contracts with the U.S. government. So this little maneuver effectively prevents them from being considered. If this smells suspicious to you, you are not alone. And just for the record, as was pointed out by Defense Review Editor David Crane last year (link
), Dragon Skin didn’t fail any Air Force tests either. Here is a quote from Mr. Crane:
Getting back to the hard armor ballistic test data we viewed with our own eyes, the data proves that Dragon Skin's anti-ballistic performance far exceeds the performance levels required to pass NIJ Level III and NIJ Level IV standards. The NIJ standard is a civilian standard that is significantly below the military standard (Secretary of Defense standards), due to bullet type limitations such as API.
Defense Review can't provide the V50 and V0 velocities or information on the number of impacts the armor can handle to the public. Disclosure of this information would violate OPSEC (operational security) for the military and PSC/PMC operators currently wearing Pinnacle Armor SOV/Dragon skin in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Defense Review also viewed a letter from ATC containing information that proves that SOV/Dragon Skin did NOT fail any U.S. Air Force test or requirement, as has been stated by certain parties in the U.S. Army. We viewed the relevant information ourselves.
Conclusion
We have not covered all there is to say about body armor, including many weaknesses of the current body armor being given to our troops. My goal this time is simply to show that Dragon Skin is so superior to Interceptor that to keep our soldiers from having it is criminally negligent. I believe we have made that point.

Comments :
Thanks for posting this here Mike
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Thank you for
recommending it yesterday! :)
This is outstanding work.
Sorry if I don't have much to add, other than "job well done".
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Nice work, but...
I would have liked to see an objective piece.
I was easily able to find sites supporting Interceptor.
I found that your weight analysis is incorrect due simply to the sizing difference between the two types of armor (such that if you compare "medium" to "medium," you won't be comparing what a soldier would be carrying for each armor).
I saw the X-Rays from the May, 2006 Army tests, and while I can find plenty of sites which say, for example, "it's easy to alter X-Rays," I can't find one which says the X-Rays were definitely altered, and he can prove it.
Nor can I find the answer to a question that has bugged me for years: why when these two systems were vying for adoption in the late 90s was the interceptor chosen as the system for delivery? This was before the present manufacturer of DS bought the rights to make it.
I definitely think that this subject needs more investigation, not more advocacy. This is an area where today's right answer may become tomorrow's wrong answer. And it is in exactly this sort of situation that governments respond worst.
While you seem to have gathered and cherrypicked everything you could to make your point, I think you are far from justified in declaring the point made.
I'd like to see more direct evidence on the actual armor, and less advocacy for one or the other, and no innuendo. Just good old honest reporting on the facts of the armor.
Given the security aspects of the information, this may come down to genuine scientific tests (unlike the NBC tests) with multiple trials over many conditions, whose results are reported to elected leadership, such as the Armed Forces Committees in Congress. Perhaps members could even observe.
For the life of me, I don't understand why those who see a problem here haven't gone straight to asking for this.
Edit: How do you think the Marines redesigned MTV jackets fit into this equation? Some say they eliminate some of the deficiencies in the Interceptor system, particlularly with coverage.
The CEO has repeatedly called for third-pary open tests
For example, here
. From that same link, it appears the army will retest.
Obviously the Dragon Skin people have nothing to lose by calling for "genuine scientific tests" but for the record they are doing so.
why when these two systems were vying for adoption in the late 90s was the interceptor chosen as the system for delivery? This was before the present manufacturer of DS bought the rights to make it.
Also curious. Seems to me like the Interceptor technology is simpler, so perhaps at the time it was more usable. Dragon Skin sounds better in theory, and if they can get the weight reasonable and the adhesive resistant to heat then I would expect that's what future body armor will look like. According to wiki, it's already good enough for a lot of people to choose it: Currently, Dragon Skin is being worn by some civilian contractors in Iraq, some elite special forces in Iraq and Afghanistan[1][2], some SWAT teams [3], nine generals in Afghanistan,[4][5][6], Department of Energy officials in Iraq, bodyguards tasked with protecting generals [7], NSA and CIA operatives in combat theatre, and U.S. Secret Service personnel [8].
As far as testing, if I were in charge I'd make sure to test random repeated fire -- how many shots does it take before one gets through? The plates break after a while, I imagine the scales do too but they are much smaller. I'd also test how much each type restricts movement, particularly when running, and of course how much coverage they provide.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Body armor
I think it is possible that in 1998, DS wasn't ready for prime tiome, but that in the meantime it has been improved.
Another thing to consider is that the military jsut stpent a qazillion dollars on Interceptor, and if DES won some contest, there would be calls in this political climate for all Interceptor vests to be replaced yesterday. The government and the army don't work that way. Can't work that way.
My father, who fought in WWII, usaed to tell me that you go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish for. He told me that as he fought his way across France and Germany, the men he admired most were those who got into those tanks every day, knowing that the tanks were poorly designed, under armored, slower than the German tanks, and with less fire power. He told me that everyone knew that these tanks would admit rounds which would then fly around the interior ripping everyone inside to shreds. They were tin can death traps, yet the men got into them every day.
Unbfortunately, another aspect in the debate that you won't see made public is cost. DS costs at least twice as much as Interceptor, and, from what i can see, cannot be simply repaired and reused by the replacement of plates on the battle field. If DS were a conservative cause, some liberals would be complaining that adopting it would simply be another move to put "huge profits" intoi "corporate coffers."
I think there is a lot going on. The CEO was apparently at the Army tests in question, and has not directly said they were faulty, so far as I can tell. But then, I'm not sure what the results actually were. (I'm talking about this year's tests.)
And I would still like to hear what anyone thinks about the Marine MTVs.
btw, the official explanation for bodygurads of generals and other officials wearing it is that it is less noticable, and is used for diplomatic reasons.
What was McCain wearing?
As I said, actual, real, many trial scientific testing should be the goal.
Are you intentionally
ignoring facts?
There were no army tests this year. Those were in May 2006. The CEO of Pinnacle Armor has repeatedly challenged the Army (and recently Air Force) claims that tests showed his armor had failed. He has explained in great detail, in links I provided, that what they are now calling failures were not originally even considered failures. He has gone through all the supposed army test failures and challenged each and every claim of failure.
Not only that but a number of experts (at SFTT.org and DefenseReview, who I quoted and several of whom I have spoken with directly) have seen documentation proving that Dragon Skin did not fail any tests. So, as far as I am concerned you don't even seem to have read the evidence I provided before you cried foul.
As for the weight, as was clearly stated in the diary, we talked to people who had worn both sets of armor and compared what the weights were. Did you see that part of the diary?
I don't know if you read the dKos comments or not, but all through the diary those who have studied were calling for the same thing you were, fair testing observed by neutral parties. We are not opposed to side by side testing either.
In addition to all this, although the diary didn't mention it, according to experts we interviewed, Murray Neal is also the inventor of Dragon Skin. So your comments about him not holding the patent previously are curious.
Finally, your comments bely a complete misunderstanding of the difference between interceptor and dragon skin. Interceptor armor, because of the way it is made (I happened to speak directly with someone who had interviewed the inventor of interceptor armor himself on this topic) is very prone to cracks and becomes useless after one hit or even a strong bump while being shipped. In the field they are constantly x-raying the armor plates to look for micro-cracks that might cause it to fall apart, literally, in battle. Dragon skin has replaceable small ceramic disks that can be discarded and replaced with a new disk, so your comment about Dragon skin not being as easily repaired in the field as interceptor is totally nonsensical.
Thanks for the response, Mike
I was confused about the test year. Neal was at last year's test, and I haven't found anywhere where he has made specific objections to the actual tests and results. Maybe you can enlighten me. What confused me is that about a month ago I saw several references from earlier this year that spoke of a new set of tests to be done this May.
He has gone through all the supposed army test failures and challenged each and every claim of failure.
Yes. I found one reference to a Congressional panel being shown a video of Neal at the tests digging a round that had penetrated the DS out of the clay backing used to simulate the body, and being asked by a congressman, "Do you think that would have killed the soldier," and Neal saying "no."
Again, I have no more reason to believe Neal's claims than anyone else's. he has a lot to gain here.
So, as far as I am concerned you don't even seem to have read the evidence I provided before you cried foul.
I did try to read all the opinions you provided. What i said is that this depends on facts and figures developed by multiple trial scientific testing. So far, we are trying to draw absolute conclusions on the basis of something less, mostly anecdotal reports one way or another. To me, what you have provided is compelling enough that there should be rigourous testing of both types across many conditions. So I share with you the dismay that this is not being done.
I don't know if you read the dKos comments or not
I will admit that I never go to dKos in search of objectivity.
As for the weight, as was clearly stated in the diary, we talked to people who had worn both sets of armor and compared what the weights were. Did you see that part of the diary?
Yes. And I simply stated what other sources said. From my point of view, with no dog in the fight, I can't decide one way or the other. I can't afford to buy some and see for myself. Ideally, we would exclude the comments of anyone with something to gain or lose in this discussion.
In addition to all this, although the diary didn't mention it, according to experts we interviewed, Murray Neal is also the inventor of Dragon Skin. So your comments about him not holding the patent previously are curious.
Again, I haven't searched the patent. However, on the Pinnacle site,
the claim of invention is avoided, although the wording may induce some to think it is being made:
This is almost Clintonian! This kind of thing gets my well-devoloped sociopath antennae a-twitter. (I've worked over the years with sociopaths in a number of settings.) What I'll say is that this is worded to carefully NOT say that Neal is the inventor, but it seems that he wouldn't mind if you came away with that impression.
At the bottom of the page some patent numbers are listed. I ran the first, and found that both Allan Bain and Neal were listed as inventors! But Bain says otherwise:
From Evolution Armor Systems
we get this:
Here's the main page.
So, I don't know what to make of all this. Do you? Evolutionary Armor promises more products now that the non-compete clause with Neal has run out. Maybe you will be arguing on their behalf soon!
As for cracking on dropping and rough handling Intrerceptor plates, I remember when this was said to be a problem with a certain manufacturing run, but I have seen nothing that says it is an inherent problem with the plates. I seem to recall that a large number of the plates were recalled. In fact, I certainly wouldn't want to go into battle with plates from a box where others had simply shattered when dropped.
Thanks for the info on replacable plates on DS. I hadn't seen that. Looking over their site I didn't see any claim to ease of replacement under battlefield conditions.
I looked on GlobalSecurity, but mostly they had news stories about DS. they did have an article about Interceptor which notes:
Thing is, I don't have the information to make a rational, scientific decision. It's kind of hard when actual test results are classified, and the tests seem inadequate anyway. We are stuck relying on "someone who knew someone who had actually worn the vest and told them that...."
What we seem to agree on is that there is plenty of reason to call for extensive scientific testing witnessed by elected officials. I believe that would be the place to make an effort.
And, again, what did you think of the Xrays of failed DS armor from those army tests?
sftt.org
Which is a non-partisan group, has the data showing detailed refutation of the tests. Roger Charles, the President of sftt.org, liveblogged with us on Sunday on this as well. And eyewitnesses, some of whom I have personally talked to, have seen the test results and DS didn't actually fail any of them. I put up the links to all this in my diary. If you choose to ignore all that, then there isn't much more I can do.
Again
speaking of ignoring, what did you think of the X-rays of the DS vests that failed?
I haven't seen them.
Though I have read, and linked to in the piece, that the only penetrations Neal admits to were ones that were shot not at the area covered by the dragon skin but at an area where there was just the vest used to hold the pieces of armor. If there is video of him looking at a penetration, then that must be one of those shot into the vest and not the armor. Again, I have not seen the x-rays in question so have no specific response to those at this point.
Here's the Army release
Warning: this is a fairly large pdf, and obviously a polemic, released this year.
May 2006 DS Evaluation.
I notice that Sftt depends a lot on taking Neal at his word. I would no more take him at his word than I would take Halliburton at their word when they were trying to convince the government to adopt their product instead of another.
I kind of resent your saying I've ignore things. What I;ve done is to look at what i could find on all sides, and I haven't found enough to make convincing statements on just about anything. I haven't here been arguing, for instance, the DS is no good whatsoever, or that Interceptor has been shown to be superior. (So far as I know., Interceptor hasn't been shown at all, at least that we in the public can get our hands on.)
And let's say that i am suspicious of those who would advocate so vociferously on one side of a question that can be settled by scientific tests.
Like you, I;'m not naive when it comes to the way procurement works. for that reason, I don't accept what the Army says just on their word either.
Let's push for some tests.
No not really.
They do put out what Murray Neal says. But they, again as I linked to in my piece, have looked at the test data themselves and know he is telling the truth. They and the DefenseReview peeps have had classified data leaked to them. And, as I mentioned in the piece, we interviewed people who had seen these classified documents.
I do not mean to offend but I don't understand why you would take offense when I am merely pointing out that you keep asking questions in such a way that I know you are either ignoring things or have missed part of what was in the piece.
Again, it isn't that we are taking Murray Neal's side based just on what he says. We talked with people who had seen the classified test data that confirm what Murray Neal is saying. Roger Charles and Nat Helms, both former marines, and both of whom have the best interest of the troops as their motivation, verbally and in writing, have confirmed that classified tests they have seen prove what Murray Neal is saying. And there are other staff members who have seen it. We didn't talk to David Crane of DefenseReview yet, but he has also confirmed that he has seen classified test results showing that Dragon Skin actually passed tests the Army is saying it failed. And he has other staff members also who have seen this.
Secret Classified Reports, some results of one of which we showed in our piece, show that Dragon Skin performed above and beyond the capabilities of Interceptor armor. We talked to eyewitnesses other than Murray Neal who confirmed that these classified test results exist and they have seen them.
A whole section of the piece was on these classified reports and had a bolded header. The piece is long and perhaps difficult to follow, so maybe you missed that part? Here is the header:
3. Out-performed Interceptor Armor in Classified Tests
No, not really
as in we should not push for tests?
Now I am worried.
See, it's all "we've talked to people who say they've seen this and it shows this and that and...."
I just don't put much stock in that as evidence. I can't imagine getting my next copy of Science and seeing an article on some subject with no data, but a bunch of references to "We talked to two researchers who said they saw another researcher's results and reported...." it just wouldn't pass muster. That would pass muster as raising doubt and a call for further research. Or maybe in a news story. But not for a claim.
For a claim, you have to have data, not rumours of data.
I realize that sfft puts up Neal's stuff, and that is bothersome. I also noticed that they didn't put up anything that didn't share their view. In my world, when there is such stuff, that is criminal. Again, that could get your scientific career ended.
This is a scientific question, and deserves to be treated as such, according to scientific rules.
Did I mention that i don't trust Neal?
Again, Mike, I'm not ignoring the stuff you put up, but I am also not ignoring other stuff that you didn't put up. I am admitting my ignorance because I don't have direct access to good data. I am responsible for my making assertions about what is, and I have rules for making them. None of the stuff I have seen adds up to the basis of an assertion about which of these systems is superior, because it doesn't give me the actual data.
IN the section cited, (part 3) you give an account of the Army response (not from the Army), and then cite, once again, Neal. it's as if this is a pissing contest between all the experts one can gather who can't provide any data and all of the same on the other side.
You cite Mr. Helms, and refer to Mr. Charles, who, for all I know, are brought into the discussion because they agree with the cause. It reminds me of the Creationists who can cite actual PH.D. biologists who support their view.
All one can get out of that is that, hey, maybe I should take a look. So that is exactly what I am suggesting, that we push for a scientific look. And just so you are sure, I actually give some weight to these people that YOU say are experts and who have seen classified documents, but even if I thought that they were as honest as Abe Lincoln, they have not provided the data.
And I know that it may be the case that the data is being manipulated. But that doesn't change the requirements.
So, to try to sum up: please do not say that I am ignoring things just because I don't snap to attention and adopt your thesis as proven because of it. after all, you had your thesis before you came up with this piece, and you selected articles and hearsay that supported it. Including the person who stands to benefit the most, Murray Neal.
You wrongly implied
that sftt.org was putting up what Neal said without critique. I explained why that is neither the case for them or us. They have seen the classified tests so they know he is telling the truth. We have seen part of those tests as well.
And as for independent testing, Roger Charles, sftt.org president, has been calling for independent testing for longer than most of us have been aware of the issue. And others in the dKos comments, people who have closely followed the issue and some of whom I correspond with on this topic, echoed that sentiment. I agree with that too.
We are all for independent testing because we are pretty sure how it will turn out. And this isn't about Murray Neal. It's about the troops getting the best body armor we can give them. That came up in the comments to the dKos piece too by the way.
OK
show me where they critiqued what he said. I must have missed it.
I would call for independent testing because I didn't know how it would turn out. Calling for independent testing when you "know" how it will turnb out, that's kind of fishy.
It's about the troops getting the best body armor we can give them.?
And anyone who doesn't agree with Murray Neal 100% is an immoral bastard that wants American soldiers to die. And that includes the leadership of the Army and the Navy. Did I get that right?
Might as well throw in Cheney for good measure.
Once again, I don't have the data, and I can't be convinced of anything one way or another on hearsay. You would probably want me on your jury at your trial. I'm honest, and I am not swayed on questions like this by faux emotional arguments.
Let's agree to focus on what we agree on, not on passing your purity test.
You implied
this was all about helping Murray Neal get a contract. I resented the implication, frankly, and responded with what I felt was an appropriate explanation. And now you call that "faux emotional arguments." Make ugly unwarranted accusations and then make some more why don't you? I'm going to bed now as I have to get up in 4 hours and make a 100 mile drive before teaching 4 hours straight. Good night.
You may have "inferred"
that, but that is not what i implied. What i said is that I don't have any more reason to trust Murray Neal than any other head of company trying to sell something to the government (I used Halliburton for an example). I don't know the guy, but after seeing some things, I think he is part con man. But i can't support that claim with any evidence i think would stand up, so that is my impression only. And note, his armor may be the best even if he is a con man.
The "faux emotion," a bit over the top maybe, was to what i inferred was your implication that Murray and you guys cared for the soldiers but the Army and Navy or anyone else who didn't sign on to every chapter and verse of your bible cared nothing for the soldiers.
Again, reasonable people can disagree. And me, I'm reasonable, and I can judge that i don't have enough evidence.
I found this here,
concerning a hearing on June 6, with the House Armed Services Committee. Looks like the testing is going to happen maybe in August. On this page is a link to the video of the failed vest and the slug being dug out of the putty. (It's not the link by the pic, but the one below that in the text where Neal says that the X-rays didn't show an actual penetration.)
Do you think that video will appear at sftt? Will you edit it into your article?
for the life of me I can't get any footage or a transcript of this hearing so far. If you can, please share.
RE: You may have "inferred"
Having read Mike's article, this entire thread, watched the congressional hearing, watched video of the DS failure where they were digging for the penetrating round, and having read the Murray Neal's Rebuttal
I have the following observations:
(1) The rebuttal is misleading. It does NOT claim that there were no penetrations (as they want you to believe), but rather that the penetrations that occured were not valid penetrations under the test protocol. They are objecting based on technicalities of the test procedure NOT refuting the actual penetrations.
(2) In the congressional testimony Murray Neal acknowledged at least one penetration as being valid which contradicts the rebuttal listed above.
(3) I think that the committee conducted itself honorably on both sides of the aisle.
(4) At several points the committee members pressed Murray Neal about some of his press statements wherein he was engaging in innuendo concerning the integrity of the military and HP White Labs. When pressed for whether he had evidence of wrong doing he denied having any such evidence.
It was clear from this portion of the testimony that Mr. Neal was, in fact, lying about the conduct of the military in a manner analogous to how several people on this site judge that President Bush lied about pre-war intelligence going into Iraq. In other words, he was clearly implying things but being very careful not actually state them outright.
I, personally, have objected publicly to calling these types of things lies but if we apply a consistent standard to Mr. Neal as has been applied to President Bush I can only assume that these same individuals would also consider Mr. Neal to be lying. :)
(5) I agree with the issues raised by MS regarding the objectivity of this piece as well as the references it relies upon. Most of what is covered here is hearsay, pure and simple. Without the actual data, as MS points out, we cannot provide an objective assessment.
(6) I fully support conducting objective tests to determine the efficacy of DS armor and to provide the best possible protection for the soldiers.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
RE: RE: You may have "inferred"
There is an excerpt within the congressional testimony (House Hearing on Defense Body Armor Programs) wherein Michael Turner (R-Ohio) rips into Murray Neal on this point. The relevant timeframe is from 2:17:45 to 2:23:40, plus or minus. My comment in (4) above is related primarily to the reference to an explosion and fire at HP White Labs and his implication that this may have been intentional.
Note also that not only the Republicans called him on this point, the Democrats on the committee were likewise objecting to this type of innuendo. I believe that this type of behavior reflects on his credibility in other areas.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
RE: RE: You may have "inferred"
In the congressional testimony Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-California) did an excellent job of walking through many of the key points that summarized the bottom line on the testimony of Neal and Coyle. I recommend watching this portion of the testimony first hand for timeframe 2:35:15 through 2:50:30.
Near the end of that segment the Soldiers For The Truth blog is discussed by name.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
SFTT blog
Funny how Neal suddenly has nothing to do with them--"I don't write for them"--and has no control over what they say. I thought Hunter was rather mild discussing the accusations appearing there about his staff.
RE: RE: You may have "inferred"
An interesting note is that apparently Pinnacle had sold body armor to the military which bore a label claiming a level 3 certification in April, 2006 but they did not actually receive said certification until December, 2006 which amounts to fraud.
See the opening statement by Lt. Gen. Ross Thompson.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Found it
Found a video of the committee hearing on C-SPAN. Found it by going to "Defense/Security" and then going to page 7. (Had to go to page 6, and then one more.) Of course, as time goes by the page number gets higher.
For some reason, it is listed as being on 6/5/2007, labelled "House Hearing on Defense Body Armor Programs."
More than four hours. The X-Rays show up sometime before the first hour is out, and then about five minutes after.
Two panels. The first is Coyle and Neal. the second is military people and NIJ and the GAO.
Here is a direct link to the hearings.
House Hearing on Defense Body Armor Programs
You need to have real media player installed.
You can also find the hearings by seraching for "dragon skin" on the CSPAN video search.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Thanks, GoRight
for the direct link. I didn't know hw to bypass the java.
Right here
are links to pdfs of the written statements submitted at the body armor hearing. (Scroll down to June 6.) Neal's written statement got some scrutiny during the hearing.
Rather than make some statement here, let me urge anyone with an interest in getting the best body armor to the troops to watch the hearing and read the material.
RE: Thanks, GoRight
No problem. I hate when they do that (the JavaScript stuff).
I watched the whole thing, all four hours of it. Hunter asked Neal directly whether he had any evidence that there was a conspiracy against him or to keep him out of the DOD. Neal had no real answer but a lot of stammers.
I found it a bit long unless you are really interested. The time segments I provide above are representative. Needless to say the military portion was about as expected. Crisp. To the point. Professional. CONVINCING (at least to me). Appropriate.
Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree
Bit long
unless you are interested is right.
Now we'll see who is interested.
Sorry guys
I haven't had a chance to sit through the hearing and see it for myself for yet. In the meantime, after I realized what MS was referring to, I remembered that my buddy occams hatchet had blogged about the congressional hearing when it happened. (link
) While I am waiting for the chance to watch it, I'll let his comments serve as a temporary stand-in for me. He provided a link to video showing that, contrary to Army claims and contrary to its insistence that zero penetrations are allowed in testing for body armor to be certified, interceptor, per the army's own admission, had suffered penetrations in testing. About the army presentation he had this to say:
Funny
You couldn't actually claim to be objective in the matter and make these statements.
But then, OH has never claimed to be objective.
Just so you know, the little film was sort of a minimus for disputing one example of a claim that Murray made.
And I will also repeat what i've said before: I still have not seen a test or test data from Interceptor tests. This is even truer now that I know that the NBC tests were performed on Interceptor equipment from the same place that Army Interceptor equipment comes from.'
Just look at the hearing with an open mind. Murray is his own worst enemy.
The question is whether you will simply be objective, or go into defense mode like the OH, and flurry about trying to save Murray at any cost in any way possible.
I hope you can present what you think without getting insulting, like OH AND Murray, an indication that one doesn't have much of an argument. (I mean, why the cheap shot at Fox News? Couldn't think of anything relevant?)
I will concede
that Murray Neal isn't the best spokesperson one could hope for. We interviewed others who could make the case for DS armor much better and understandably than he.
On another note, you are whining about people being insulting while you make statements like this one:
Let me perfectly clear. Both OH and I want independent testing and we don't really care if Murray Neal comes out smelling like a rose or not. It is the armor we are interested in, not its proprietor. So please stop with saying we are trying to help Neal himself. Earlier you made similar statements and when I called you on them here
you denied that was what you meant here
. Please do not repeat this canard again.
Note
My nnote on OH sare based on what he actually said and you quoted. What I said is factual. Would you be happoier if i said that he was trying to save the armor at any cost? Thing is, he goes on about how unprofessional Brown was, and doesn't mention Murray. Tht is enough to tell me something right there.
I reserve the right to speak of the armor, the company that makes it, and the CEO-owner of that company interchangeably, because, as you might note, one can't argue for one without arguing for the other at this point.
I am not assuming, as you accused me, that this is all about saving Murray and nothing else, as if the armor didn't matter. That is what you accused me of, and that is 100% false. Please do not repeat this canard again.
In fact, you put it well: those who truly want this armor must wish they had another spokesperson. In fact, one of the Reps suggested that he get a professional to redo his presentations.
I don't quite know about you, but I have no doubt that OH is a true believer, and has sacrificed his objectivity. My mind is open as far as you are concerned.
I have been at pains not to prejudge this hearing so that anyone interested can watch it for themselves and draw their own conclusions. I am sorry that you didn't get the chance to see it without having read someone else's comments on it.
This is where you lose credibility:
Mike's quote:
Your dishonestly de-contextualized quote:
So Mike says he's for independent testing because he wants the best armor for the troops, and you dishonestly connect that last sentence with slavish agreement with Neal, even though it's clearly attached to "independent testing".
Which makes this below even funnier:
Well, I got a good laugh out of it, at any rate.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
You should
perhapos read everything, not simply pull one quote and pin my response to that.
Go ahead, to get the context for the response, simply go back to Mike's piece and follow each link and read it. the notion here is abou6t agreeing with Neal 100% (I think that is exactly what i said) not about saving Neal himself.
Let me try it again: it's the fdiference between
1) agreeing with Neal 100% (let me spell it out, in his claims for his own body armor, in his putting down interceptor, in his charges, innuendooes, and his insinuations that the Army is purposely ignoring him and puttingt him and his army down for nefarious purposes at the risk of soldiers' lives). I like to think that some of this is what mike is referring to when he says that the ARMOR could have a better spokesman.
2) saving Neal, which is what i did not say (or you show me where.) It never occurred to me that anyone EXCEPT Neal had any interest in making Neal a success, and with Neal, well, he's the owner. That attqack cvame right out of the blue, and for you to drag it back up again, well, this is where you lose all credibility.
Again, there is a difference between the tone and more than tone which says that the soldiers are not getting safe armor because e the Army is cheating on tests, don't care about soldiers' lives, labs are destroying data, thaty Neal is being persecuted, that there is some conspiracy to ignore Murray's claims, which must be accepted 100% or you belong in the anti-spldier camp.
That is not the same as saying that it is about making Neal a business success. So far as I know, he is.
Let me give you an example. In the hearing, Duncan Hunter talked about when he first heard about DS, he invited them in to discuss the product. He promised them a test, and made some calls to try to get it set up. In a short time after thius happened, there were nasty things said about some of his staff, (on sftt) with the implication that they were just a part of the conspiracy to oppress Neal and deny adquate body armor to the soldiers. Hunter was not happy with this, but remarkably calm. He pointed out the irony that he was working through the staff to get DS a test just as the staff working to get that test were being slammed as the enemy on sftt. So Neal says, "I don't write for sftt." Hunter says maybe he didn't but the information about the meeting had to come from somewhere, and that information and the slams had to come from either Neal or his people. He asked that neal write somethng fro sftt to clear it up and tell the truth. i wonder if he did. it's been a month.
One more try: Two things:
1) The demand that everyone agree with every claim by neal 100% or be slammed as being against the troops or a part of a conspiracy to deny the "truth" for nefarious reasons.
2) The claim that Mike made, that I never said, that this was somehow about Neal's good or welfare.
I happen to think that Mike is well-intentioned. if you got anything out of this exchange that tells you otherwise, you badly misread.
Remember, Mike really isn't looking for independent testing because he wants to learn about the results. Above, he says he knows already what the results will be. i don't. it occurs to me that some of Neal's more outlandish claims may be false.
And I am sure Mike would agree that if neal spent more time promoting his product honestly and skipping the whining and the accusations, the product would be better served.
I've been saying to Mike that we should skip the purity test of believing everything that Neal says, and concentrate on our agreement, that the product and other systems should be tested.
Mike believes, and I have told him that I don't have enough real evidence to make a sound decision. If you go to the sftt site, you will see that such an attitude is not acceptable.
Now, I know this is hard, so I'll try it once again slowly: The bringdown:
t's about the troops getting the best body armor we can give them.?
And anyone who doesn't agree with Murray Neal 100% is an immoral bastard that wants American soldiers to die. And that includes the leadership of the Army and the Navy. Did I get that right?
Mike believes with all his heart that "the best body armor we can give them" is DS, and that the only reason for testing is to force the Army to accept that.
My comment is a reflection of what neal himself says. if you don't accept what he says, you don't care about soldiers, you don't care if they die, and that includes the corrupt leadership of the Army and The Navy (and, it came out at the hearing, the Armed Forces Committee itself), who have spent years just keeping Neal down for nefarious reasons at the expense of the soldier.
And that is what i reflected. When you enter a religius site like sftt, you are immediately in a world of good and evil, and if you don't agree with the current saint, you are evil.
me, I like proof.
So, try reading for understanding, look at the whole context, and then don't assume. All the insulting stuff for nothing.l Seems a waste.
bttw, take a look at the Committee meeting and see what you think. make up your own mind.
I must admit that this kind