Tuesday Open Thread

Lots of discussion about Bush commuting Libby's sentence; Orin Kerr makes a few good points . In Pakistan, a standoff between police and extremists hiding in a mosque has turned deadly . The Pentagon lost an appeal to charge a Gitmo prisoner because he wasn't declared an "unlawful" enemy combatant . The police continue to round up people involved in the UK attacks, catching a doctor trying to flee from Australia . And Specter and his wife had a baby yesterday !

This is an open thread -- what's happening today?

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More congrats to Specter, wife and new baby!

It is the economy, stupid.

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Atomic bomb debate in Japan

Japan's defense minister resigned under an avalanche of criticism Tuesday for suggesting that the United States was justified in dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki because the attacks saved Japan from a Soviet invasion.

[...]Kyuma's comments echoed an enduring historical debate over whether the bombings were necessary. Washington has argued the bombs were needed to avoid a potentially bloody land invasion. Many, however, also suspect the U.S. wanted to end the war before the Soviets — who had already occupied much of Europe, setting the stage for the Cold War — could invade Japan.

I remember we debated dropping the bomb in tenth grade and I was in the camp that held the US ought to have begin by dropping a nuke on a non-populated area to demonstrate its power. Still seems sensible to me. It's a different world now, we don't face such threats and we wouldn't consider such tactics. Perhaps partially because of the shock and horror of these two bombings, the world has managed to avoid nuclear war since.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Wow!

Interesting that he resigned under an avalance of criticism.

It is the economy, stupid.

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make no mistake about it

if someone smuggled and detonated a nuke inside US, some country in the Middle East would cease to exist, with a bunch of mushrooms blooming over it.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Maybe

but terrorists today are generally non-state actors (holding the Taliban accountable for al Qaeda was one of the few reasonable exceptions). So it wouldn't solve anything.

Terrorists also don't care about civilian casualties in a way that heads of state (even the slightly crazy ones) must. There's no deterrent effect by retaliating -- perhaps the opposite, if their goal is to provoke a large-scale conflict.

The only reasonable approach is prevention.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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there is deterrent

if all those terrorist families are completely wiped out. There wouldn't be large-scale conflict because the bombs would rain one way.

And deterrent should not be the primary motivator - justice would be. When radical Islamic terrorists see their holiest sites wiped out without Allah's doing anything to prevent it, perhaps some realization will sneak into their almost empty brains.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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As if

lobbing nukes in the general direction of some Muslim country is the best way to ensure the deaths of the terrorists responsible for the attack.

Collective punishment in the form of a nuclear holocaust visited upon innocent millions is not justice.

Simply put, there can be no justice for a terrorist nuclear attack within the US. There is no proportionate response. Dropping our own nukes is more likely to make things worse than better.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Agree on the prevention thing.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Play what if

It's easy to say that we should prevent, and I wholeheartedly agree with that approach. So don't paint me as a war-monger.

But let's war-game and pretend a nuclear bomb did indeed go off in the States, say downtown Atlanta, killing thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands.

What should we do in response?

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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Find whoever did it

and either kill them or lock them up.

I know people think that sounds weak, but it's just folly to suppose that terrorists who would detonate a nuke inside the US are scared of death or concerned with our retaliation. We have no leverage over insane madmen of the type who would nuke a city with a suitcase bomb. There is no proportionate response possible against a non-state actor.

Nuking some other country wouldn't stop another attack.

Sorry, there just isn't any satisfactory answer to what we'd do in that situation -- that's why it is so important to prevent it from occurring.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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But that doesn't address

Brendan's important distinction: terrorists are generally non-state actors. I know you're asking what would be the response in such an extreme scenario, but I think Brendan's right that a response targeting those responsible would not involve nuclear weapons or any kind of large-scale retaliation. This is the perpetual headache of terrorism, and one that we still, as a culture, have not managed to sink into our skulls. We're still operating on a state-level mindset (Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, whatever) which is unfortunately a distraction.

Do I have a better solution? Not really - it is a puzzlement.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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They have already attack the US

and I don't see any country in the Middle East that has ceased to exist.

Just wondering where you get the authority to speak as commander in chief...;+)

It is the economy, stupid.

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I am talking

about nukes. Not just an attack. It's not that difficult to see a huge difference.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Come on, Ender

If someone detonated a nuke inside the USA, we'd have sensitivity sessions to try to make us more empathetic to those who set it off, and understand just how everything they did was understandable in lightof all the evil we do in the world.

We'd probably vow to increase our aid to the countries harboring the planners of the incident. And we'd make nice speeches about how now we understand the Japanese and their "true feelings." And we would wallow even more in guilt about dropping the nukes on Japan rather than have my father killed invading the place.

Those calling for retaliation would be condemned asa unfeeling persons who dismiss the inevitable unplanned for deaths as "collateral damage," who laughingly use this euphemism because they view humans as ants.

There would be a call to "make nice with 'em" perhaps with a meeting down at the gym (the gum's neutral territory).

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Scooter LIbby represented Marc Rich

Just as a refresher in the tangled web that is tax evasion and foreign policy.

Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff testified Thursday he believes prosecutors of billionaire financier Marc Rich "misconstrued the facts and the law" when they went after Rich on tax evasion charges.

The testimony from Lewis "Scooter" Libby, who represented Rich dating back to 1985....

Scooter Testifies to Free Marc Rich

Craziness.

It is the economy, stupid.

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There are some

people out there who seem to think Libby never participated in the leak process. (link ) I think you have to ignore a lot of very good evidence to still think Libby never intentionally leaked Plame's status and/or participated in the leak process at the behest of dick Cheney.

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UK terrorists

According to the link Brendan supplied above, the terror suspects arrested so far for the UK bombings all appear to be doctors.

What does that say about the economic motivations supposedly behind terrorism?

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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Please explain.

Wasn't bin Laden also a well to do.

I wonder if we will soon be fighting them over there and over here.

Iraq has provided an excellent training ground for terrorists and given them plenty of cause to fear that Israel's borders are in fact creeping into Baghdad.
Using Saddam's palace and building permanent bases have given them an excuse to oppose the takeover of their country and what they see as a war against their culture even harder.

It is a sad reality.

It is the economy, stupid.

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It's a question

I'm asking you to think about it and tell me what you think.

I could have sworn someone made a comment recently saying that disparity in economic situations was the driving factor behind someone becoming a terrorist. The case in the UK seems to contradict that hypothesis.

So, if it's not economics, and it's not a lack of education, and it's not a lack of exposure to the "good things" of the West, then what is it?

(You've been dancing with GR and MS too long. This is not a trick comment. . . .)

Edit again: Seems like you expanded your comment at the same time I wrote this ;} But I'm speaking of just the UK terrorists, not Iraq

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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I don't understand their motivation.

I believe in the first rule of war.

You can't win until you 'empathize with the enemy' or try to understand what goals they are trying to achieve.

Is it a temper tantrum? Is it a statement that the brits need to get out of Iraq?

I know Cato has come forth with concrete steps to prevent terrorism by pulling all US military bases out of the Middle East, and putting ALL US forces at the ready on the ocean.

It was the smartest policy statement I have heard. But too honest for most to agree with.

That Israel is backing the US creep into the Middle East is just another version of the crusades.

And there is no question is there that desparate refugees, orphans, fathers trying to feed their children become so hopeless that they will take the money for suicide missions just to feed their families. That is a part of the reality.

Not a trick question...... put a sort of poke in the eye question. Of course I never do that do I.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Hehe

I posted another one too. . . if we're gonna argue, let's argue over something bigger than what "is" is ;}

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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this is stupid nonsense

"You can't win until you 'empathize with the enemy'"

Do you understand what empathize means? No, we don't need to try to feel like them to win. In fact we won without any problems in WW2 without empathizing with evil.

Those who empathize with evil are evil themselves.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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If you want to win

you have to understand the enemies motivation. Get inside their head to see what their motivations are and what goals they are trying to achieve.

If you don't get that then maybe someone else can explain that trying to anticipate is smart strategy.

It is the economy, stupid.

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That's a good way to put it

Trying to anticipate, exactly right. Doesn't mean you approve of whatever the enemy is doing, just that you make an effort to understand and consequently predict their actions. If that understanding yields insight into how you can address their grievances in a non-military fashion, so much the better.

It's enlightened self-interest.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Isn't it a lot easier....

... just to make something up?

You know, like that they hate us for our freedom. Are you guys trying to tell me that it's more complex than that?

Ok sorry. Of course it's more complex than that.

I wonder -- could we reach a consensus here that that kind of sloganeering has been an impediment to understanding the true nature of the threat? Are we wise enough to admit that we don't understand the threat, and smart enough to take the steps we need to take to begin to achieve that understanding?

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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I would hope

Shouldn't it be obvious that the vast majority----nay maybe even all----of the posters here know a stupid slogan when they see one?

Is it an impediment to understanding the nature of the threat? Well, only if one believes that sort of BS. It's just a marketing slogan. I think we all know that. The real world is much more complex, as you said.

But in this age of 20 second time slots, they had to come up with something. It fit on the teleprompter and was easy for Mr Bush to remember.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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Of course you're right.

Everyone is smart enough to see through stuff like, "they hate us for our freedom..."

I also agree that these are marketing slogans, and they're very carefully crafted to provoke a certain type of emotional response, or attitude shift. They don't stand up to scrutiny, but that doesn't prevent them from being effective. Still, that's what politics is all about, after all. Nothing new there.

What is new, and what I'm seeing increasingly, is a shift in rhetoric. Not long ago 'the terrorists' were mostly described as fringe fanatics whose fundamentalism coupled with violent extremism represented a perversion of Islam. But now, more and more, the focus is shifing to Islam itself. Now we're hearing people like Hassan Butt say that one can not be a true Muslim and a moderate at the same time. Right wing radio is hammering the meme that Islam is decidedly not a 'religion of peace' 24/7.

It's all beginning to sound a lot like the beating of drums to me.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Oddly, for this slogan

there is truth in the slogan. You can trace hatred of freedom tight back to Sayyid Qtub, the intellectual core of the terrorists, whose visit to the United States cemented his belief that America and the west granted too much freedom, which led to most of the evils and unhappiness of the world, and that it could only be counteracted by advancing Islam to the status of an ideology, which, as pointed out, would then spread Islam across the world under one Caliphate.

If freedom means freedom from the laws of Islam, then it is to be hated, AND feared, for it may weaken the religious fervor of Muslims.

And this points out another problem with sloganeering. Even if they have truth at the core, by being a partial explanation to a complicated situation in slogan form, they obscure the reality not only for those who simply adopt the slogan as the truth, but also for those who dismiss it as false.

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That might be true

... in a world where the only choices are to believe or to dismiss. Fortunately it's possible to see the little nugget of truth that the lie is wrapped around without having the wool pulled over your eyes. So to speak.

But it's still an excellent point.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Well, true enough

That might be true

... in a world where the only choices are to believe or to dismiss.

I thihk we live in that world. See the remarks above which dismissed the idea entirely. I think many would say, "if Bush says it, it is a lie." Substitute anyone you wan on either side of the spectrum, and someone will say that.

And I'm not really sure what lies the truth is wrapped in. Sometimes when we hear these slogans, we say something like, "that's a lie because of something they didn't actually say." Here, the first obvious choice is to insert an 'only' in the slogan.

I think that one can make the same analysis of a counter slogan, which is also on its face true: "They hate us because of our foreign policy." This one also has the same deficiencies of a slogan.

It makes one long for the days when one packed a picnic lunch, took the kids and some toys, and went to hear politicians and political speakers of the day give two hour speeches on the pressing problems of the time.

One can't imagine Daniel Webster, Stephan Douglas, Abraham Lincoln, or Edward Everett resort to sloganeering.

At least someone gets my point: this isn't a world where we are required to accept or dismiss every slogan.

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Isn't this

All too obvious:

"At least someone gets my point: this isn't a world where we are required to accept or dismiss every slogan."

The truth is that slogans work. Marketers spend billions of dollars on getting their slogans just right to sell their products, be it politicians or breakfast cereal. I love my frosted flakes, I think they are Grrrrreat!

I think many would say, "if Bush says it, it is a lie." Substitute anyone you want on either side of the spectrum, and someone will say that.

And you could say, 'if Liberals say it, it should be dismissed as the lunatic fringe.' This is done consistently by the right.

They hate us because....... should we really accept that slogan? 'They' don't hate us because of our freedoms. They want their own.

It is the economy, stupid.

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We should look upon slogans

as slogans.

'They' don't hate us because of our freedoms. They want their own.

Interesting. Both of these are Bush slogans. The first refers to the terrorists, who do hate us because of (but not only because of) our freedoms, and who really don't want their own freedom.

The second was the slogan that really took the president to war, that everyone inherently wants freedom, and refers to the ordinary person everywhere.

The idea was that if we simply remove the impediment to freedom in Iraq, say, those people will embrace freedom, set up a democracy, and we'd be out in a few months (someone said recently that the problem with Bush's post war strategy was that it was ALWAYS a withdrawal strategy, not a counter-insurgency strategy). Further, the idealistic notion went, those people themselves would rise up against terrorists who hate freedom, and their example would spread freedom without our intervention in the rest of the Middle East over time.

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Neocon dreams.

If you like you can say that.

Yes we can agree that it is a lovely idealistic concept........ the problem being that the neocons are idealistc to a glaring fault. Their model for governing and government seems a bit less than ideal..... seeing as how the sands of Iraq are covered with buckets of blood, no judicial system, no police, no jails and a refugee crises of major proportions.

Good government, as I have stated before, is something that conservatives don't believe in. The word good and government do not make it into the same sentence with conservatives. For them government =bad.

So why would we think they could create a good govt in Iraq. They can't. Because they believe all govt functions should be for profit and unregulated. Well they have been and so far it hasn't worked. A few thousand dead people later........what good do your ideals do you, as sheer desparation lack of hope a refugee crises, a failed oil contract negotiation and muslims now thinking that when American says we will bring you democracy, they look at Iraq and say, 'no thanks'. Not to mention that the unrest in Iraq seems to be spreading rather than abating. If it was a war of ideas..... we are losing because we have displayed incompetent hubris, and thumbed our nose at little things like, say torture.

How easy it is to sit and read books, make up glorious theories and have no clue as to realistic application. Maybe 'they' your heroes the 'classic liberals' should have listened to more voices of experience, instead of resoundingly dismissing all advice that disagreed with their hard core ideological bent.

What American ideal should we export next?

It is the economy, stupid.

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You know

thee were no "classical liberals" involved. Do you think Ron Paul had a big say in this? No, the JFK liberals, now called "neocons" seemed to have had this dream.

But the dream is that America would not impose a government, but that the peopleof Iraq would naturally form their own government. So, missliberties, back in the days after the war ended, were you loudly proclaiming that the Americans should be forming a government and imposing it to our standards against the will of the people of Iraq, as you now seem to be saying should have been done?

Because they believe all govt functions should be for profit and unregulated.

Thjis is just effen stupid. No one believes this.

You love building false strawmen.

I thought the dream was silly, just as Ithink that the dream of intervening in, say, Darfur like white knights righting a dragon's wrong is silly.

And know this: if my heroes, the classical liberals had had any say in this, there would have been no war. Check out Ron Paul's vote on the war.

Then look at the Dems. In 2004 they put up as candidates two people who actually delivered us the war!

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Whatever....

your double speak for today is typically contrarian.

Ron Paul is your hero. I will remember that for next time, when you were before whatever, before you were against it.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Ron Paul is not my hero

Another of your straw men.

Ron Paul voted against the war.

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weirdness

user error.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Unclear

from this statement.

"And know this: if my heroes, the classical liberals had had any say in this, there would have been no war. Check out Ron Paul's vote on the war."

You mean Scoop Jackson wouldn't have agreed with the neocons?

It is the economy, stupid.

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Your little back and forth with Maddy aside

I am a classical liberal. Don't even try to lump me or anyone even remotely like me with the people driving our foreign policy.

In a way, I'm rather insulted that all my writing on this blog hasn't steered you ,or anyone who may be prone to such errors, away from such flippant broad brushing.

If SC serves any good purpose, it should be foster better understanding of views that may differ from yours. Statements like that are prevalent on insulated partisan blogs where people don't actually interact regularly with the not-totally-like-minded people they pretend to know about. On a site like SC, posters, especially regulars like you, should be well past that.

Take what I said at face value. This is about demonstrating that all the debate and discussion with others actually widens and sharpens your understanding of others' views.

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I note that you

come from a position of consistency and integrity.

So true confessions I still don't know what a classic liberal is. Mad says JFK??? I don't see that at all.

I also confess to a strong distaste for neoconservatives, and have heard them refer to themselves in the grand sense as 'classic liberals' which could be where I got my prejudice. (Richard Perle)I guess I haven't recovered or got past the assault of the neocons on public discourse or the direction they have taken the nation.

If you feel I lumped you into a 'category' I apologize. I am not to up with categories, frankly. I thought you were a libertarian democrat. And I thought a classic liberal was someone in the Wilsonian tradition.

My beef with Maddy is, I think he is a pretender so I poke him flippantly to see where he stands. I certainly meant you no offense whatsoever.

It is the economy, stupid.

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JFK

is a modern liberal, not a classical liberal. Classical liberals are more what we now call "libertarian." They include Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, Jefferson, Madison, other founders. Interestingly, John Stuart Mill is claimed by both the classical and the modern liberals.

Today, what you call a liberal in North America (but not the rest of the world) is a social democrat. Here, they follow FDR and those who followed. Today's liberals in the Democratic party have given up on the military as an instrument for doing good in the world, a tenant of FDR, HST, JFK, LBJ, HHH, and Scoop, and many others, but they still retain the notion that government is your friend, thqat it is an instrument to do good, it should replace private charity, and so on. Classical liberals think government is necessary, but should be feared and limited. It was such a notion that led the founders to make a government with checks and balances, and to severely limit the powers of the federal government.

It didn't always work, which is why you have to be vigilant. Modern liberals are fond of "reinterpreting" the constitution and precedents in order to achieve some end. (they aren't the only ones.)

Did you ever wonder why Congress makes laws abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, when the constitution says clearly, "Congress shall make no law....abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press? Well, one of the reasons is that in WWI, the Wilson government (proto-FDR liberal) thought that distributing pamphlets asking people to consider resisting the draft were dangerous, and liberal justice Holmes wrote a rousing opinion upholding a law abridging freedom of the press! Here is an OYEZ:

Facts of the Case

During World War I, Schenck mailed circulars to draftees. The circulars suggested that the draft was a monstrous wrong motivated by the capitalist system. The circulars urged "Do not submit to intimidation" but advised only peaceful action such as petitioning to repeal the Conscription Act. Schenck was charged with conspiracy to violate the Espionage Act by attempting to cause insubordination in the military and to obstruct recruitment.

Question

Are Schenck's actions (words, expression) protected by the free speech clause of the First Amendment?

Conclusion

Holmes, speaking for a unanimous Court, concluded that Schenck is not protected in this situation. The character of every act depends on the circumstances. "The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent." During wartime, utterances tolerable in peacetime can be punished.

Here is the typically liberal reasoning, from the opinion:

We admit that in many places and in ordinary times the defendants in saying all that was said in the circular would have been within their constitutional rights. But the character of every act depends upon the circumstances in which it is done.....he most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. It does not even protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force....The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree. When a nation is at war many things that might be said in time of peace are such a hindrance to its effort that their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight and that no Court could regard them as protected by any constitutional right. [Citations omitted]

So, you see, the constitution must really have said "Congress will make some laws depending on the circumstances to abridge the freedom of the press, or of speech." One decides what is legal or constitutional not by actually reading the Constitution, but by considering the circumstances! (The same reasoning was used by those opposed to the recent SCOTUS ruling against using race to determine school placement. You know, "yes, it says we can't do that, but oh, what about the circumstances?")

And notice that there is the same idea you heard from the neocons: we're at war, so you shouldn't say certain things. Remember people calling criticism of the war "treason?" It's all a matter of whose war it is.

Anyway, Ron Paul and John are examples of people we can call classical liberals.

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Classical Liberals....

are not neocons by any stretch of the imagination.

As unsettling as this may sound, to understand what a classical liberal really is would almost necessitate that the observer acknowledge that most prominent Democrats are closer to being neoconservatives than any classical liberal could ever be. To deny that or not believe it is to not understand classical liberalism.

Wilson was not a classical liberal any more than he was a woman. The closest we ever had to classical liberal president in the 20th century was Coolidge and on a scale from 1 to 10 with 10 being a true CL, Silent Cal was a 6.5 at best IMHO. Perhaps some would rate him higher....I don't know.

Since then none were. As Maddy said, JFK is a Modern Liberal...plain and simple.

A classical liberal, by definition, is wary of any "top down" management of society or the economy and would use such methods sparingly and only after great deliberation and prudent consideration of all other less "statist" methods. He does not project any great agenda thru government empowerment or grand scale collectivism via the state. To believe otherwise is to believe that a cat barks. If you keep that in mind, you don't see many classical liberals in modern politics.

The key here is not a negative view of central power for its own sake but rather a healthy fear of what can come of it along with healthy optimism about the results of less centralized methods.

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Why

on earth would you say that dems are close to neocons. Hardly. Neocons stick together like glue. Dems not so much.

The closest thing I see to a neocon in the dem party is Joe Lieberman, and he is no longer a dem, and is considering supporting a Republican in '08.

So I guess you can say I still don't understand classical liberalism. Either that or you don't understand neoconservatives.

I think it is human nature to question authority or as you say have a healthy skepticism of the powers that be. I also think it is human nature to look to good leaders for guidance.

It is the economy, stupid.

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MissL,

Why on earth would you say that dems are close to neocons. Hardly. Neocons stick together like glue. Dems not so much.

Please understand. I said closer than classical liberals. This is a relative statement. I also have a better chance of marrying Jennifer Aniston than you do. That doesn't mean it's a good chance but seeing that I'm a male and you're a female, my chances are better than yours even though they are not good.

Look at it this way, Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden or any of the other leading Dems are more likely to exhibit neoconservative behavior than Ron Paul. This is a true and fair statement. Why? Because Hillary and Co. are more likely to support or propose measures that neocons would even mildly endorse than they would from Ron Paul.

Neocons know that a Dem victory in 2008 would less threatening to their agenda than a victory by Ron Paul or someone like him because Paul does not in any way support any of needed apparatus that makes the neoconservative agenda possible....be it military size, number of bases, willingness to stretch executive power, willingness to project American might against others etc.

I think it is human nature to question authority or as you say have a healthy skepticism of the powers that be. I also think it is human nature to look to good leaders for guidance.

Yes, it's human nature to question authority and classical liberals do this far, far, far more in far, far, far more areas of governance and authority issues than dems or repubs would ever do.

But ah, that second sentence is a bit vague. Here's the wrinkle. I, as a CL, would never word it that way...either that or I would not accept that as a necessarily good thing. Keep in mind that we have a Bill of Rights that protects us...yes protects us from the guidance of otherwise "good leaders" as you say. We have rights that are immune to the guidance of leaders. We have laws that are above any of those would-be leaders. CL's don't like "leaders"....they prefer effective, prudent, humble and wise administrators. "wise" meaning the knowledge to know their limits and those limits are far stricter and tighter in the eyes of a CL.

What you say implies that government can be an omnipresent force for good if we just had the right people in charge. NO. That's a hopeless ideal. That's why the founders designed limited government. They knew long ago that good governance has its limits and designed our constitution with that in mind. Over 230 years later, and its clear they knew what they were talking about.

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What does

neoconservative behavior mean to you? I don't think we are on the same page with that one. William Kristol is a neoconservative. Ted Kennedy is not.

Limited government still requires competent leadership. And limitied government should be a force for good. Good governance does not have its limits. Why would you limit something that is 'good'.?

Expanded powers of government is what needs limits, which is why our forefathers implemented checks and balances. I think you are confusing your terms.

I didn't read where I said government is/should be an omnipresent force if we had the right people. You are assuming way too much.

Remember part of what shrinks govt is regulations. Politicians with special favors and defense contracts (or survelliance camera contracts) seem to expand govt powers. Regulations help prevent that sort of expansion.

I am more for taking a position on the issues, than defining myself by this or that ideology. But I do believe that good government is what we should strive for. I do believe in providing boots to people who don't have them so they can have bootstraps to pull themselves up by. And I do believe in capitalism that is ethical, and not deregulated capitalism that creates monopolies.

What our forefathers saw and recognized from the abuses of King George was that too much power corrupts especially if you marry that with a state dominated religon. We need checks and balances. I am still in awe of the brilliance of our forefathers.

This statement:

"Look at it this way, Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden or any of the other leading Dems are more likely to exhibit neoconservative behavior than Ron Paul."

also apples to Republicans, who played follow the leader. No questions asked.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Come on now, MissL....

Please, reread what I said. You make these discussions much longer than they need to be.

William Kristol is a neoconservative. Ted Kennedy is not.

OK. But I never said otherwise. I said Ted Kennedy and other leading Dems are closer to be neocons than a classical liberal ever could be. I've already explained this and what I meant by it.

Limited government still requires competent leadership. And limitied government should be a force for good. Good governance does not have its limits. Why would you limit something that is 'good'?

Yes, it requires competent leadership as I explained and said myself. Your next two sentences contradict. government is good because it is limited, to expand it nullifies this concept.

That's like saying ingesting certain foods in moderation, like red wine, is good for health...so why not drink a lotof it??! Same for aspirin. See?

Expanded powers of government is what needs limits, which is why our forefathers implemented checks and balances. I think you are confusing your terms.

agreed. I'm not confusing anything.

I didn't read where I said government is/should be an omnipresent force if we had the right people. You are assuming way too much.

Oh really? I don't think I'm assuming too much. It's a concept that is very prevalent, even if implied, and that lies at the heart of Leftist thinking. come on. Let's not even dwell on this one. Whether you spelled it out here or not is irrelevant. really now.

Remember part of what shrinks govt is regulations. Politicians with special favors and defense contracts (or survelliance camera contracts) seem to expand govt powers. Regulations help prevent that sort of expansion.

Regulatory power is an example of expanding government, not shrinking. Special favors and such are products of expanded power. If you're referring to self-imposed regulation, that's a dicey topic that often backfires. Let's leave that one aside.

One last thing, if you really awed at the brilliance of the forefathers, you wouldn't be embracing all the uses of government that you surely do. You would be a classical liberal.

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Good explanation John

The key here is not a negative view of central power for its own sake but rather a healthy fear of what can come of it along with healthy optimism about the results of less centralized methods.

Classical liberalism to me combines the best aspects of the current left (fear of too much government power) and the traditional right (limits on centralized power) and a dash of modern libertarianism (optimism and faith in less-centralized methods). It embodies the principles behind our founding, IMHO.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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Scoop Jackson

was a stereotypical JFK liberal, even worked on his campaign. He was a hawk.

What he wasn't was a classical liberal like Locke, Rousseau, Jefferson, Madison, and so on.

If old Scoop, JFK, FDR, LBJ, HHH, HST and the gang were around, they would be neocons. Ever hear of a little place called Nam? Where we had to fight them there so we didn't have to fight them here?

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Interesting

that you can speak for the dead.

Since JFK did not go full on with Cuba, I somehow doubt he would have gone into Iraq. And weren't we already in Nam when JFK came into office?

Odd that the neocons had the advantage of the history of guerilla warfare in Viet Nam and choose to ignore it. I believe the famed Gen. Patreaus wrote a long paper on the mistakes made and lessons learned from Nam and a better way to address guerilla warfare, and every single lesson was ignored by the cabal of neocons that insisted on running the war 'their way'.

It is the economy, stupid.

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We necessarily guess

with the dead, so we must mean that we guess from their past behaviours.

Einsenhower had a few advisors in Vietnam. Kennedy dumped in many more "advisors," (we always used the quote marks at the time), and was committed to winning the war. A lot of people uninterested in college or science started contemplating a college degree and a career in science. (It gave you a deferment.)

Odd that the neocons had the advantage of the history of guerilla warfare in Viet Nam and choose to ignore it.

It is a general characteristic of ideologues that they have difficulty learning from experience, especially as it fades into the past and it counters their ideology. So, you can expect that those thinking we should dart around the world doing good will bloom once again.

a better way to address guerilla warfare, and every single lesson was ignored by the cabal of neocons that insisted on running the war 'their way'.

Because, you see, they never expected a guerilla war. The expected the government to rise, and they would leave. I think the plans were to be down to 50,000 troops by fall of 2003. Their plan was never about fighting a protracted war; it was always about withdrawal.

Even that is like Kennedy and LBJ, who insisted that they wanted to get out of Vietnam right after the victory. Kennedy's advisors not long before his death told him that they thought it would come in 1965.

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On sloganeering and independence

Or the always trite but useful...... this is a clash of civilizations, the east vs the west, good vs evil. The supremist argument for US exceptionalism. I see no respect for individuals in this argument. Split any hairs and and you are on the side of evil. It's a convenient slogan to get people to shut up, period. Absolutisim at it's best.

Which is my beef with right wing fundamentalist christianity. Heaven or hell take your pick. If you don't accept my absolute version of christ hell it is. Absolutism in the name of 'salvation'. Of course you have to buy into the, 'if you don't do this, you will own real estate in hell argument'.

Or the always useful moral imperative..... whosoever shall argue against it is therefore immoral and doesn't respect life.

These arguments are useful to charismatic leaders trying to sway public opinion.

Which is why I am always in awe of our fouonding fathers. They put in a system of checks and balances, just to avoid this kind of absolutism, and provide a sense of justice for all, and a sense of pride around a set of ideals for the many. Truly amazing.

On that note Happy Independence Day!

It is the economy, stupid.

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Liberty

Living in a free society is hard and dangerous. People are free to be smart or stupid. And it's easy to assume we know which they are. But give me freedom over the alternatives any day.

I trust you. If you can't trust me, trust the founders' checks and balances.

Happy Independence Day!

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

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The goal of the enemy

is to establish a worldwide caliphate and impose sharia law. We know this because that is what the radical islamists tell us in their speeches, writings, etc. Maybe it sounds simplistic, but they are religiously motivated. see quote below:

The consistent need to find explanations other than religious ones for the attacks says, in fact, more about the West than it does about the jihadis. Western Scholars have generally failed to take religion seriously. Secularists, whether liberal or socialists, grant true exploratory power to political, social, or economic factors but discount the plain sense of religious statements made by the jihadis themselves. To see why jihadis declared war on the United States and tried to kill as many Americans as possible, we must be willing to listen to their own explanations. To do otherwise is to impose a Western interpretation on the extremists, in effect to listen to ourselves rather than to them. (page 7)

Knowing the Enemy: Jihadist Ideology and the War on Terror by Mary Habeck

name the enemy, win the war

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wanting to form a caliphate and actually doing it

are two different things. There are and have always been extremist groups with agendas. Knowing there agenda, for what it's worth, and knowing how likely that agenda is to come to fruition is an important distinction.

The KKK had an agenda too...as do modern neo-nazis in Germany....Big Woop.

Al Qaeda and their adherents aren't forming any caliphate....even if we, as a nation, vanished off the face of the earth. They cannot succeed. They lack the ability on many levels to get anywhere near enough Muslims behind them to accomplish this.

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Agreed!

And this constant prophecy of an imment caliphate if we don't destroy all 'enemies' and fight the constant war against the 'east', is actually encouraging the zealots. They think they are more powerful than they really are. We keep telling them that.

It is the economy, stupid.

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No comfort

The fact is that Qtub's followers have no notion that it will be a short term battle. More importantly, they don't envision any other end.

In Qtub's formulation, what is important is to understand why there came to be a lull in the drive for a worldwide Caliphate in the first place. (And this has been a most popular subject for books since the Turks were defeated in Europe.)

What it means practically is that they will not go away. This is a long term problem that will not disappear just because WE think they are defeated.

Ordinarily, we thik that at some point, groups with agendas admit that they cannot meet the ends of their agenda. These people will not.

So, I agree that we need not worry about the agenda coming to fruition. But we do need to worry about endless terrorism.

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Even the President....

... knows this. The 'War on Terror' doesn't end. Like GWB said:

I don’t think you can win it. But I think you can create conditions so that those who use terror as a tool are less acceptable in parts of the world — let's put it that way.

I wonder when we're going to get around to creating those conditions? I mean, we could continue to pursue the strategy of blow them up until they stop hating us..... that might start to work. One of these days.

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Where are we

pursuing a strategy of blowing (presumably non-terrorists) up until the stop hating us?

At this moment. if you know.

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Well

I made that bit up, sir. Fabricated it, purely for effect. But see! I admit it :)

A politician is an arse upon which everyone has sat except a man -- e e cummings

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Funny

but i have often seen that argued! usually goes like this:

A: We are killing eoight billion people in iraq, and that is just in Baghdad!

B: Don't you think that in most cases, iraqis are killing each other, and in most of the rest, outsiders are killing Iraqis?

At this point, this is often simply denied, and the first claim is repeated, often with an even higher number.

Alternately, it will be admitted that Iraq has become a place of terrorist-driven ethnic cleansing, but it is argued that it is and always was our fault. this can be because we started it with those there bombs, or because there wouldn't be any killing if we left! (I kid you not.) I once asked someone to ponder a scenario where some Sunni insurgent got up in the morning preparing to go kill some Shia, and his buddy told him that the Americans had left, so they celebrted not having to kill the Shia anymore. In fact, in my scenario, the Sunni and Shia met and celebrated together, saying things like, "sorry I had to shoot your uncle, Ahmad" Which might meet with, "And I'm sorry that your boy got in the way of Sayyid's bomb. he was a good boy. Look what those Americans made us do!" One person said that she thought that this is exactly what would happen if we left!)

The common thrad is that Iraqis are incapable of making moral decisions, and either we have to enforce civil behaviour, or we have to leave, which are the only two ways that killing in Iraq will stop.

So, you see, all the killing in Iraq is our fault. All our fault, all the time.

As you can tell, I've been down this road a few times.

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but not very discomforting either

you say they have no notion that it will be a short term battle or that they envision any other end. I say:

So what?

I don't mean to sound dismissive or naive but Islamists have an insurmountable task in front of them even without us in the middle of things....in fact our involvement and the consequences of it only obscure the impossibility of their grand vision by not allowing the ideological wall they'll hit with the greater Muslim world to come to pass. They can't win. And "win", I mean among the very people they wish to control.

First they have to get past the governments without becoming outcasts and unsavory radicals among the majority of Muslims. Then, assuming they did this, they'd have to overcome opposing factions who do not adhere to their ideology and vision...like we see now in iraq...then assuming they did this and haven't become hated by the Muslims for all the fighting and destruction who once admired them in their heroic fight against the West, they have exercise control and hegemony over this vast world.

remember, success in the form of a caliphate, assumes "successive successes" at each step described which are virtually unattainable.

not gonna happen.

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It's not about the ends

It's about a bunch of ill equipped, largely untrained fighters, few in number, driving a super power out of Afghanistan in such a way that it collapsed shortly thereafter.

And it is about the old story of Richard watching as a Mualim general waved to two soldiers on a cliff, whereupon they leaped to their death. It is about religious fervor, and not your logical and reality based analysis.

I agree with you in a way, but it is more like something you have to keep an eye on, like some permanent boil that without attention may take over half your body.

You also underestimate the extent to which Muslims really do believe in a unified Ummah.

I remember an American Muslim saying to me just after 9/11, in the midst of the rhetoric, "America and the West have no idea what they are up against in Islam."

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Most of the leaders

of our own revolution were well to do. But that does not mitigate the fact we were fighting, to a very large degree, against the economic oppression of the British King. I don't think the fact that the leaders are often well to do invalidates the underlying point that economic oppression is a root cause.

I would like to take credit for originality of this thought, but I read it somewhere and have forgotten where.

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Yes, but

It has been mentioned more times that I can count how Al Queda and the terrorists in general are not a state so the parallel does not quite work, IMHO. The USA was fighting for independent existence, for land, resources, and self government.

Given that, for example, Bin Laden is personally extremely wealthy (as are many in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere), why would they not just fix the economic situation of the economically disadvantaged that they are fighting for? If that is the real root cause.

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran