SiCKO and the Healthcare Debate

First, a confession. I am not one of Michael Moore's biggest supporters, and I had to be tricked into seeing SiCKO this weekend (I was promised Paris, je t'aime, which was conveniently no longer playing at the theatre!) There are two reasons: 1. his scattershot, anecdotal approach is unsatisfying to the extent that I feel I leave his movies without having learned anything substantial about the topic, and 2. I'm a bit of a snob when it comes to documentaries. Incidentally, the better half tried to persuade me not to think of Moore's films as documentary, but as "entertainment with a point."

That being said, I wanted to bring the topic into a front-page story since we've had both solid diaries and long comment threads banging around the healthcare debate. Obviously this is going to be a major topic in the next presidential race, dominance of the Iraq debate notwithstanding.

Before I saw the movie, I made this observation in that thread:

Basically, it seems like an imperfect system either way, with the choice between between one of two extremes:

1. a fully private system in which a chunk of the population cannot afford medical costs, or
2. a fully socialized system in which everyone gets the same coverage, and the system grinds to a halt because of overuse and bureaucracy.

Is it fair to say that most of us would prefer a mixed system? If so, what would that system look like?

Moore's documentary hasn't done much to change my fundamental questions, but it has highlighted a few problem spots in the debate itself.

Anecdotal evidence is one of the biggest. Moore's documentary is packed to the hilt with people who've experienced personal problems from the healthcare industry, as well as happy Canadians, Brits, and French who live contentedly healthy lives, but there's never an indication of how representative these stories are. Especially when it comes to the happy foreigners (a typically Moore-ian juxtaposition takes us from an absurdly happy middle-class Paris to the poorest slums of America in order to emphasize how much worse our system is. Instead, this left us all wondering how well healthcare works in the poorest slums of Paris, an area his camera never bothers to take us. It may have helped his film, since France supposedly has the best healthcare in the world, even for the poor - but it wouldn't have made as powerful a rhetorical point. Entertainment, indeed.)

But the healthcare debate is dominated by anecdotal evidence, whether it's the people down the street who went bankrupt because of unexpected health costs, or the Canadians who come to the United States to get more rapid hospitalization. Anecdotes can be helpful in illustrating the very human costs of bad healthcare policy - and it must be said that the most powerful moments in Moore's films are when he shuts up and lets people tell their own stories - but they can also obscure the benefits of a policy by highlighting the exceptions.

Here's one: Canadians are not crossing the borders in droves to receive American health care. Some are, especially for highly specialized care. But on the whole, Canadians are healthier and live longer than Americans - notwithstanding the fact that, as one interviewee says, "Someone will always complain, no matter what the system looks like." (see below for counterevidence) On the other hand, Moore doesn't help his argument by trying to show that Canadians on average don't spend longer in the hospital waiting room, which is simply not true - his only evidence to the contrary is a brief trip into one hospital: "Have you waited long? No? Ah, well, case closed then!"

Fortunately, web searches can help us locate more concrete numbers to clarify issues that Moore's film glosses over. A brief article filed by the American Society of Registered Nurses (hardly a disinterested source, but bear with me) provides many of the numbers that the film simply doesn't provide. Most interesting is the comparison between the country with the "best" healthcare (France) and the country with what our President has called the "best" healthcare (us, of course):

* $ spent per person: US - $5,711 (rank: 1st); France - $2,902 (rank: 9th)

* Life expectancy: US - France: US - 78.0 yrs (rank: tied for 17th); France - 79.9 (rank: tied for 6th)

* Infant mortality (per 1,000 births): US - 6.4 (rank: 16th); France - 4.2 (rank: 6th)

What's most interesting to me is $ spent per person, since arguments about spending and efficiency seem to revolve around healthcare costs. Notice that we spend nearly twice as much as that Gallic socialist hell, and yet they're doing much better than we are on life expectancy and infant mortality.

Now, I'm not naive enough to assume that the only factors going into healthcare are dollars, but clearly we're doing something wrong. Environmental factors not listed here also do have a major impact: there's certainly something to be said about the food Americans eat, for example. But one of the arguments Moore tries to advance is that this is still part of the same story: The heathcare industry in the United States is focused on medication. The healthcare industry in France is focused on preventative medicine to keep people in better overall health. Likewise: the English system of universal healthcare supposedly grants dollar bonuses to doctors who succeed at incorporating lifestyle changes into their patients' sessions: get a patient to quit smoking, get a few extra bucks.

That seems like a good idea to me, but I can imagine it wouldn't go over terribly well with our prescription drug companies. Moore also takes aim at them (and takes some deserved potshots at the loathesome Billy Tauzin ), and hints at one of our strangest problems: advertisements for prescription drugs on television. Why advertise prescription drugs to the population? Shouldn't your doctor be the one suggesting which drugs are right for you? Economically speaking, the companies know they can make better bank if you go in with a drug in mind - which increases profits but represents terrible, terrible healthcare.

The ASRN report gives some of the numbers that support Moore's arguments, so here's a USA Today article that debunks others. Another article, this time from Reason Magazine , pokes holes in the theory that Canadians are in better healthcare hands, but occasionally resorts to bogeyman "what ifs" that I don't find all that convincing. And don't forget this recent diary by Freedem. The more you dig into the statistics, the more healthcare reveals itself to be a labyrinthine problem, but one in which we're clearly walking down the wrong paths without a ball of yarn.

A final note on the film: it doesn't help when Moore's clearly bending the material. In the infamous Cuban segment - infamous because it's already sparked more debate than the nearly 2 hours of material devoted to our healthcare crisis - Moore lauds the Cuban system, which he notes is world-famous for its excellence (no specifics given). However, earlier in the film he presented a list of the countries with the best healthcare: and Cuba was two slots below the United States. This isn't necessarily a contradiction, but Moore's silence on such a glaring juxtaposition doesn't speak much to his straightforwardness on the issues.

But, like the better half said, this isn't a film aimed at people like me. This is a film aimed at people who don't google at 2am to dig up healthcare statistics, and who feel disgruntled about their insurance plans but don't know how to talk about it. It's a film aimed at getting people talking rather than offering solutions: agitprop for 21st century America.

And it did get me talking, so there you go.

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For the record,

I did finally get to see Paris, je t'aime at another theatre. It's a mixed bag, but the worst segments are mediocre, and the best are sublime. Worth the ticket alone for Alexander Payne's entry, which manages to do in 5 minutes what some filmmakers never accomplish in their careers: humor, pathos, love, sadness, all wrapped together in one painfully wonderfully human package.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Quick comment

I've seen medical literature that attributes the longer lifetime in France to diet.

One has to be careful with corollations.

Why advertise prescription drugs to the population? Shouldn't your doctor be the one suggesting which drugs are right for you? Economically speaking, the companies know they can make better bank if you go in with a drug in mind - which increases profits but represents terrible, terrible healthcare.

That's just awful. Those poor doctors can't say, "I understand that has been highly advertized, but this drug here which just went off patent works just as (or almost as) well, and will cost you less money." As you know, patents are short, and there is a rush to make up the millions spent to bring them to patent, let alone their test mates which didn't make it.

A good example is Crestor, which the last time I checked, really was the best in its class. However, it is on patent and expensive, and another drug may work very well for most people.

Meanwhile, doown at the hated HMOs, when someone comes in and asksfor Crestor, they just roll in the aisles.

Are you suggesting that drug companies not be allowed to advertize their products?

Best statement:

The more you dig into the statistics, the more healthcare reveals itself to be a labyrinthine problem, but one in which we're clearly walking down the wrong paths without a ball of yarn.

Normally, we don't even ask what all the goals of our healthcare system should be, or even why we call it a system. or, for that mater, why we think it should be a system.

But what about the children.

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Quick replies:

I've seen medical literature that attributes the longer lifetime in France to diet.

One has to be careful with corollations.

Which I specifically said in the diary, after comparing the US to France:

Environmental factors not listed here also do have a major impact: there's certainly something to be said about the food Americans eat, for example.

We agree, so I'm not sure why you thought to point that out. Another point:

Are you suggesting that drug companies not be allowed to advertize their products?

Yes, I am: for those products that can't be bought over the counter. Why do we label some drugs prescription only? Because we don't believe the consumer has enough background to make informed choices about them.

A very good article here (pdf!) charts the growth of consumer-targeted prescription drugs, and outlines some of the potential positives and negatives of the trend. The positives may be a more informed populace, although if the drugs are still prescription, I don't see how that changes anything - it's the doctor who needs to be informed. The negatives may be an increased overrealiance on medication (we're already the world's most medicated country ) and, since doctors make money by pleasing patients, doctors more likely to sign off on unnecessary medication.

Finally, on this:

Normally, we don't even ask what all the goals of our healthcare system should be, or even why we call it a system. or, for that mater, why we think it should be a system.

Very good points, and in some respects the crux of the debate. I think a reasonable argument can be made that some kind of system has to be in place for two reasons:

1. Expense of specialized procedures. I really don't see any purely market-based solution that makes it easier for people to get access to procedures that require either a high level of technology or specialty.

2. Circumstances. Healthcare is, by its very nature, the thing we need when we're least in a position to pay for it. Part of the problem we have now is that some people unable to work because of a health condition are also those unable to pay to correct that health condition, which is simply the nature of the beast. People certainly need to be smart about saving, but an unexpected accident can change one's financial circumstances overnight.

Incidentally, there was a funny anecdote in Moore's film about a woman whose insurance company refused to cover her ambulance to the hospital after she was knocked unconscious in a head-on collision. The reason? It wasn't pre-approved!

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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I admit

I was in the middle of doing something and scanned your piece quickly, planning to return later. So I didn't catch that. Sorry.

Why do we label some drugs prescription only? Because we don't believe the consumer has enough background to make informed choices about them.

I have a different idea, and it has to do with the AMA being the best union in the world. Despite this, I don't think you have made a case that prescription drugs should not be advertised. I like the restraint of saying," ask your doctor about Crestor."

The positives may be a more informed populace, although if the drugs are still prescription, I don't see how that changes anything - it's the doctor who needs to be informed.

This reminds me of two things. First, I always wince when reading business type things wherein they say that advertising is good because it informs people. I always thought that a little glib. On the other hand, and secondly, the trend in medicine is away from the doctor as authoritarian know-it-all to patient responsibility for their own care.

What you go on to say is true:

Expense of specialized procedures.

In my little town, the kindly but gruff town doctor provided all the medical care. He was his own social system. He took anything from nothing to chickens to $5 for an office call, $10 for a house call. But he charged the rich people in the big Victorian houses on the end of Main St. $75 for an office visit. In return, he might agree to see them that day for a minor illness that the rest of us might wait a day to see him for. And he was generally available for fundraisers they may have, or even a few social events. (btw, he never missed one funeral of a patient of his.)

But it was understood by all in town that the rich people in town had access to specialized care that others did not, mostly at the bleeding edge of research. Where the average person might be told that their cancer was not curable, one of the rich peopole might be able to buy their way into a new treatment being tried in Cleveland. No one resented this. It was just reality. That rich person probably had a Cadillac, while you were content with a five year old Ford.

Since, we have been infected by the crazy notion that everyone deserves the best care, something impossible. So, logically speaking, we now seek to make it fair by taking money out of it, and sort of having a lottery system. In a total socialized system, you and the rich guy would have equal chances of drawing the best or the worst doctor in the system. That seems to be an improvement in fairness, but it doesn't allow any longer for the rich to pay for new treatments which will eventually bleed down to the poor. In fact, that happened all the time when I was young. That rich person who went to Cleveland had a good result, and it soon became available at the nearest hospital. The lag was usually a few years.

Maybe we should socialize our system, but in order to keep our system generating new drugs and treatments, we should demand that other systems pay for the costs of our developments. American drug companies should no longer allow European countries to set the price of drugs; rather, it would be fair for all developed countries to pay the same for them. And that includes Canada.

Short thought is: there will always be discrepancies in the delivery of health care, and wishing will not make them go away. We have to be careful that our solutions to these discrepancies don't negatively effect pother goals of our health system.

Circumstances. Healthcare is, by its very nature, the thing we need when we're least in a position to pay for it.

That's the old cunundrum. I remember one of my teachers, 29 years old, in a funk one day because he was denied health coverage due to his having a congenital heart defect. (Underneath his eyes was always blue.)

Of course, the usual answer is to spread the risk through some social measure. In the 1800s, social organizations began having members pay into a health fund for the purpose of providing at least some care when it was needed by a member. Then some enterprising people formed what they called s"social organizations" which would sell the rights to such care to any citizen who would pay. Insurance companies were born, and they were often mutal companies, that is, owned by the premium payers.

What we realize after a century and a half is that no company can afford to insure all of its members against every medical happening. mental health is largely uncovered, and we are all psychiatrically indigent (and states have traditionally provided mental health care). We in Oregon tried to provide health care for the poor, and quickly found out that we couldn't afford it. So a lineup of procedures was made based on their seriousness, times the cost and the number of times they were likely to be needed, and at the point on the list where the state money for the program ran out, a line was drawn, and nothing below that line would be funded. (There was a little play, because right below the line was a procedure which saved lives, and the crap hit the fan.) But without the ability to make these hard decisions, no plan can work.l And the dreamers never want to talk about these hard decisions. What kills programs is the reluctance to ask "what can we afford" rather than just saying that we should fund everything.

As for the pre-approved ambulance, that is not a surprising story. it works that way. Usually it is because people abuse the system. I knew mental patient who arrived at the County hospital by ambulance about twice a week for no particular reason because her family happened to have generous insurance. But even they ended up paying for the ride most of the time. (Most of the time, the woman was lonely, and just wanted to talk to somebody. The crisis entry center would talk to her for a while, and then call her a cab.) One of the crisis centers I worked at almost went bankrupt from being stuck with ambulance bills! From the city fire department! We made a deal with the city that they could use our office building at night to train police dogs to settle the bills.

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Hey, Trickle Down Healthcare!

Since, we have been infected by the crazy notion that everyone deserves the best care, something impossible. So, logically speaking, we now seek to make it fair by taking money out of it, and sort of having a lottery system. In a total socialized system, you and the rich guy would have equal chances of drawing the best or the worst doctor in the system. That seems to be an improvement in fairness, but it doesn't allow any longer for the rich to pay for new treatments which will eventually bleed down to the poor. In fact, that happened all the time when I was young. That rich person who went to Cleveland had a good result, and it soon became available at the nearest hospital. The lag was usually a few years.

This is exactly right. And note that under this scenario it is the RICH and not the poor who end up being the guinea pigs for the new treatments. Sometimes they find out that while the treatment cures what was originally ailing you that you actually end up with something worse down the line.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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But it also prevents

people who are more than willing to be those guinea pigs from doing so. One of the anecdotes in SiCKO involved a man who was willing to undergo a not all that experimental surgery for cancer, the chances of success high since he found an exact marrow match in his younger brother. The insurance company said no, on the grounds that it was too experimental according to their company standards.

So it isn't that rich people are offering themselves for programs that no one else will take: quite the opposite! Our system of insurance makes it financially impossible for non-rich to take part in these kinds of procedures.

Would a socialized system offer more or less roadblocks to this? The instinct is to say "more", BUT if their driving incentive is to keep people healthy (the surest way of keeping expenses down, since profit is no longer an issue), I can't imagine that they'd be too opposed to it - but I'll see what I can dig up on policies in places like Canada, France, etc.

The man in question died, by the way.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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The man in question

The man in question died, by the way.

And not only was no money spent on his treatment, but from that day forth no money was spent on his treatment. Perhaps this is the most obvious way to hold down costs.

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Nor will he pay any more taxes,

so it'd be a net loss for the government, and no loss for a private health insurer. Check.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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One more quick notice

I have been off medicine for hypertension for four years, My BP has been sky high, and I should by all rights be dead of a stroke, which runs in my family.

Things is, the drugs that work for me are cheap, safe, and are not abuse drugs. I could have afforded them. What i couldn't afford is the doctor to write the prescription. (I recently found a way to get a prescription.)

I've never been a believer in drug laws,, which are designed to save us from ourselves. I have held this position for as long as I have known what the word 'drug' meant.

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Just awful

That's just awful. Those poor doctors can't say, "I understand that has been highly advertized, but this drug here which just went off patent works just as (or almost as) well, and will cost you less money."

Sure, they can say that, but will they? I only have the dreaded anecdotal evidence to support this, but in my personal experience, doctors will automatically prescribe the latest, greatest drug. Especially, it seems, when the patient has insurance. I have, more than once, had to specifically ask for a generic prescription after discovering the copay on the initially prescribed drug was rather high because it was a "Tier One" (or whatever) drug.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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RE: Just awful

So, let me understand the bottom line here: under our existing system you, personally, were able to (a) make informed decisions, and (b) get access to the most affordable drugs available (i.e. generics, where they exist)? Does that sort of accurately summarize the situation?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Accurate summary

Yeah, pretty accurate. I also have a decent health insurance plan. When I didn't, I couldn't even afford the generics, so I just chucked the prescription when I found out how much it would cost.

Not exactly sure what your point is. I am not complaining about my situation regarding health care at all. I've got it pretty good these days. Of course, I also probably pay more in insurance premiums than I personally would spend on health care if I didn't have insurance. Insurance companies love to have people like me as a customer! (Although now my wife more than makes up for that.)

I was simply pointing out that relying on doctors to have the financial interests of their patients in mind when making prescription decisions is perhaps not the best thing to do.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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That's the idea

I was simply pointing out that relying on doctors to have the financial interests of their patients in mind when making prescription decisions is perhaps not the best thing to do.

One would expect that the doctors would ordinarily have their own financial interests in mind. We would normally expect the patient to have his own financial interests in mind.

One of the problems (I'm making a narrow point here) with third party payer systems is that no one has the financial interests of the payer in mind. If that third party is an insurance company, you will see lots of resentment hen they assert their interest. If that third party is the government, well, NO ONE has the financial interests of the tax payer in mind, do they?

So, in any system where the patient has no finanicial interest in keeping the costs down, they are likely to be higher. And we all know that if the government is involved, well, they will gladly pay $500 for muscle propelled nail driving devices, and they will pay $2 for aspirin.

Except when costs get out of hand, then they get arbitrary. Ever deal with Medicare?

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Speaking of nonsense,

using Medicare as a predictor of how bad spending would be under socialized care begs the question of why it's cheaper in other countries that have a more centralized health system.

And one of the reasons is precisely because healthcare makes up a higher percentage of government spending: the government has every incentive to keep spending down, especially in nations that, unlike ours, have no interest in running on a deficit.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Here's today's laugher

government has every incentive to keep spending down,

No one working with OPM has an incentive to keep spending down.

What happens is that eventually, the money becomes limited. In fact, that has happened to Medicare, which cuts people out of treatment regularly for financial reasons.

You don't think that Medicare just pays for anything the doctor orders , do you? Not only do treatments have to be pre-approved, they have to be renewed to continue. "MTB" is often the judgment on renewal applications.

This is always going to be the reality because the amount of treatment that could be brought to bear on diseases costs more than the total amount of money available in the entire country.

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Facile response,

given that I was not talking about our government, but those that - amazingly - are not spending $2 an aspirin. I know this concept must be foreign to you, but they are keeping costs per patient lower than we are. Anything productive to say on that, or would you prefer to keep laughing?

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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I think that's an issue

No matter who we put in office, no one is pressured to NOT spend $2 for an aspirin. We can look at other countries all we want, but as long as the government is flush with cash (via higher taxes) they will find a way to spend it, and health care is no exception.

Not that I think that the Status-quo, wait-till-it-gets-better option is any better, but our government doesn't know how to have any restraint on spending, and it's amazing that we think they'll take better care of health care when they can't even be upfront and honest with us on earmarks. Put in Republicans, and they hide tax collections in obscure appropriation bills. Elect Democrats, and they hide tax collections in obscure appropriation bills. Imagine the fun they can have with tax money intended for health care. $2 Million for a Cough Medicine History Museum, anyone? (That shouldn't be funny, but I wouldn't put it past them).

If you have a child who keeps asking you for more money and does not care to justify how they spend the money they already get, you are going to be reluctant to give them more money.

Congress can't handle immigration, they run from tax reform, social security, and energy. They're not ready for another system to manage--especially one that could allow lawyers manage our health system. We might as well just throw the dollar bills into a landfill-bound garbage can (which, ironically, may actually get to its intended destination more efficiently).

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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I can't wait for the

"Coming of Dextromethorphan" display.

The expectorant room promises to be fun!

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RE: Facile response,

They are keeping costs down by rationing care and avoiding care through the use of long waiting periods. How much of that privately spent money to go either to a private clinic in Canada or to come across the border to the US is factor into those spending figures, BTW?

It is easy to make the costs look low when you (a) don't provide the services promised, or (b) hide a significant portion of the cost in out of pocket expenses of patients that don't show up on your books.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Do you think

that we are not over-medicated as a society? I've posted some links that make that argument, so I'd be interested to know what your opinions are on this.

Given that it's more time consuming to work out a healthy living regime and it costs doctors nothing to prescribe a medication, it's no wonder that we're trying (and failing) to accomplish with pills what other countries are trying (and succeeding) to accomplish with preventative medicine. Our system makes no sense except in the arena of profit.

Let's talk for a second about incentive, since that's one of the debates that comes up a lot whenever socialized medicine is discussed. The argument is that companies will have no incentive to push for newer and better technology, since competition will be severely stifled. This may be true.

On the other hand, let's do a comparison of the goals of profit-driven medicine versus socialized medicine. The incentive in the first is profit, pure and simple. So here's a question: as a drug company, does it make more economic sense for you to develop a medication that keeps symptoms at bay, or one that cures a disease? Clearly the first, and this may go a long way towards explaining why we're such a pill-based culture. Likewise, is it more worth it for a doctor to bill insurance companies for multiple visits, or for a single, comprehensive visit? Again, the first brings in more cash.

Now, compare that to the British system as outlined by Moore (with a grain of salt, since I haven't read up on the specifics). What incentives drive the industry once profits are taken out of the picture? For the government, lowering the amount spent on healthcare is at the top of the list, given how large a portion of spending has to be dedicated to it. To that end, they give bonuses to doctors who keep their patients healthy and out of the hospital, for which they receive extra compensation when successful. By shifting the focus of how one makes money from pure profit to health, the end result - a healthier overall population - is achieved.

That does sound good to me.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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This is nonsense

right here (this specific and oft-made abwstract nonsense):

So here's a question: as a drug company, does it make more economic sense for you to develop a medication that keeps symptoms at bay, or one that cures a disease?

Of course. I well remember while people were dying around me of polio wishing that that there might be some way to cure the disease, or, even better, to prevent the disease. But, you know, it never happened, even though someone leaked that some doctor the name of Salk had developed a preventative vaccine. There was a huge industry at that time treating polio victims in hospitals, and that meant lots of drugs were being sold to aid in that treatment. A whole system of spas and clinics provided all kinds of care for those who had survived polio but suffered after effects. FDR, for instance, spent a mint on such care. And we all know the rotten, evil capitalists in the health care system weren't going to allow some vaccine to interrupt their profit stream. So, they quashed it, and no one brought it to market.

That is why to this day, polio ravages our children every year.

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Possibly nonsense,

and yet here were are, consuming far more medication than the rest of the world, and to what end?

Do I think the prescription drug companies are hiding some miracle vaccines in a vault? No, not really. Do I think it's much more to their benefit to hype yet another antihistamine instead of shifting their research to the sources of allergy-development? Given the money that Claritin has raked in by the bulldozer-full, I most certainly do.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Didn't you just say the same thing

twice?

I assume you are speaking of developing some vaccine that would prevent allergy development.

btw, do you think that Claritan qualifies under fairleft's notion of something that is a benefit of society? Just asking. Maybe your answer depends on whether you have an allergy that is best treated with Claritan.

Do you know off-hand how much it cost to bring Claritan to market? Please include all its failed drug-mates in the pipeline.

Do you think there is something wrong with raking in a profit for Claritin?

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In fact, I did not say the same thing twice.

I said companies likely do not have vaccines hidden in vaults, but they also don't have any economic incentive to put research towards longer-range solutions. Why should they, especially when we're talking about something non life-threatening like allergies?

Do you think there is something wrong with raking in a profit for Claritin?

When did this become an issue of right or wrong? I'm talking about incentives and benefits, and it's to the benefit of drug companies to produce something like Claritin, because it brings in a very large profit.

What Claritin does not do is provide anything but temporary relief for a condition that affects Americans far more than the rest of the world, oddly enough. But if there's no incentive towards researching long-range solutions, then more money will be thrown at antihistamines. Which it is.

And it's terrible health policy. Not "morally" wrong, or whatever else you were trying to lead with that question, but if the goal of healthcare is health, then it's certainly misguided.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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You make a lot of assumptions

without any backup.

Perhaps you will tell me the exact expenditures of the drug companies on allergy research.

Do you have any idea of the difficulties involved with allergies? Scientifically speaking?

But if there's no incentive towards researching long-range solutions, then more money will be thrown at antihistamines. Which it is.

Like i said, that is why our children are dying of polio to this day.

pico, you are making abstract arguments that fit your belief. My bet that a preventative for even some allergies would be a gold mine. My bet is that any drug company would love to have one.

In the mean time, damn those drug companies for providing drugs which relieve symptoms. Damn them.

btw, If your purpose is to screw the makers of Claritin, ask for the generic version.

When my daughter has her next allergy attack, I won't give her any medicine, telling her that pico says that relieving her symptoms is terrible health policy. (She uses the evil diphenhydramine.)

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You make a lot of

emotional arguments to try to further your points:

Strawman/Appeal to Emotion--In the mean time, damn those drug companies for providing drugs which relieve symptoms. Damn them.

Appeal to Emotion--When my daughter has her next allergy attack, I won't give her any medicine, telling her that pico says that relieving her symptoms is terrible health policy. (She uses the evil diphenhydramine.)

Try to argue without resorting to these cheap rhetorical shots. pico did not call anyone evil, nor did he suggest you should not give allergy medicine to your daughter.

Bad form.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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Please read

nor did he suggest you should not give allergy medicine to your daughter.

No, he just said it was bad health care policy. Why would I want to use bad health care policy on my owhn daughter? Would you?

Strawman/emotional attack--In the mean time, damn those drug companies for providing drugs which relieve symptoms. Damn them.

Sorry, but this is exactly what he is saying. He thinks and so stated that the drug companies should NOT be developing more antihistamines, but rather spending their research dollars elsewhere, in some sort of research on allergy prevention, like he apparently knows they are not.

This is rather an example of taking his arguments to their logical conclusion. period.

I'm sorry if it caused you to get emotional. Not my purpose. My daughter is just a case at hand.

I think pico was clear about what he thinks about the makers of Claritin.

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I did not say

your points were wrong (nor am I saying they are correct either), but there is something to be said for putting substance ahead of an antagonistic (and IMO enticement to emotion) style in a public debate forum.

Maybe I should write another diary (in addition to the other two--here and here --I pointed out to you previously) about what people's goals are here. If it is to point out faults in others' reasoning, that is great but try to use a style that invites others to see the errors of their ways (laughing and saying people are not contributing intelligent remarks, et al, are not the best strategies to complete this task). If it is just pure ego boost from trying to ridicule people, that is kind of sad and I recommend a more fulfilling hobby. If it is to downright change ingrained opinions, we are such a small community that the significance of this impact is questionable leading me to believe it is either ridicule or ego boost since your style does not suggest the most efficient route to change minds or show faulty reasoning.

I suggest people relax a bit around here and calm down with the over the top rhetorical styles that seem more interested in chasing people off than creating understanding or workable solutions.

Thanks.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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I see from your

mind reading that i am a reprehensible person.

I didn't know Ihad all that in my mind.

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Case in point. n/t

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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Here's my case in point

there is something to be said for putting substance ahead of an antagonistic (and IMO enticement to emotion) style in a public debate forum.

And the accusations get worse from there.

I weas feeling emotionally attacked and a little low after i read your vicious, non-substantive words. I had to look around the furniture of my mind to see just how reprehensible I actually was.

Me bad. Me bad.

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Agreed. n/t

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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RE: You make a lot of

Ha. This is funny. In my experience --> MOST <-- liberals argue PRIMARILY from the position of emotional argumentation ...

But think of the little children!

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Especially on this topic

"4,000 million Ameriocans are without healthcare"

Above, the patient whose insurance company would authorize an experimental treatment died. How sad. ( Note: these two words are meant to recall Mose Allison's autobiographical song wherein he says he never really knew his dad, and remarks, "How sad.")

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Yes, liberals and their emotional arguments

I must point out however, that your mention of this emotionalism is aiding Al Qaida!!!! Who want to invade and kill us all and then forcibly convert our corpses to Islam!!!!

Yes, this emotionalism is a liberal-only habit

< /snark>

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RE: Yes, liberals and their emotional arguments

Where did I say this was a liberal only phenomenon?

Can you explain how my pointing out that --> MOST <-- liberals tend to argue from an emotional perspective is aiding al Qaeda?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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RE: RE: Yes, liberals and their emotional arguments

Where did I say this was a liberal only phenomenon?

Where did I claim that you did?

Can you explain how my pointing out that --> MOST <-- liberals tend to argue from an emotional perspective is aiding al Qaeda?

Can't tell you. It would reveal weaknesses to the enemy. Just trust me and don't do it again or the deaths will be on you head.

(I apparently closed my snark too quickly last time, so I'll leave it open here)

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RE: RE: RE: Yes, liberals and their emotional arguments

By the official rules of snark, or sarcasm, isn't this:

Yes, this emotionalism is a liberal-only habit

supposed to have some element of truth to it whereby you are thus making fun of my prior comment?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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RE: RE: RE: Yes, liberals and their emotional arguments

I suppose you COULD read it that way. Just as one COULD read your inclusion of the word 'liberals' in your comment as exclusion of non-liberals from the same degree of categorization. But pointing that out wouldn't have gone anywhere.

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Agreed. n/t

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Give me one reason why I should bother

responding to comments like this:

When my daughter has her next allergy attack, I won't give her any medicine, telling her that pico says that relieving her symptoms is terrible health policy. (She uses the evil diphenhydramine.)

which is not only completely wrong, but pretty reprehensible, at that.

Seriously, give me a reason. I came into this discussion doing my best to discuss common ground issues, and this is the b.s. you're starting to throw at me in response?

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Specter has already

rushed to your defense. Bless him.

You did seem to me to downplay the importance of treating symptoms of allergy and seemed to not want the drug companies to continue to explore for better treatments for allergies.

To be truthful, your saying that it was bad health care policy was a shock to me. Not an anaphylactic shock, but a shock never the less.

And my daughter HAS been saved from death by allergy with epi a time or two. Good thing my wife is a nurse.

Anyway, me bad. me bad.

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No, that is not what I was doing.

Putting the bulk of research towards treating symptoms instead of towards cures is bad health care policy, but it has nothing to do with how your daughter uses what's available to her. And it's awfully dishonest of you to jump to that.

Incidentally, when I was a kid I was allergic to pretty much everything they tested me on, including foods, animals, plants, whatever. As an adult I've retained serious problems with hay fever, and medications tend only to work in the short term (I took biweekly shots as a kid, as well).

If your daughter has a problem with histamines, she may want to consider neti as a possible treatment. (That link goes to a study by the University of Wisconsin)

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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The kid

has pretty much gotten over serious allergies, although she still gets the hay fever and stuff. Asthma, not so much, but it is better than the breathing treatments twice a week she used to require.

We spent a lot of time with her at the ER (always pre-approved) with her when she was very young.

We had a great HMO back then.

Anyway, I thought your statement6 was ideologically based, not based on any actual knowledge of decision making.

To tell you the truth, I haven't the foggiest idea where a scientist would start looking for a cure to allergies.

Anyway, I'm just not as paranoid as some here.

Nor do I have the same need to have for profit businesses confomrm to my idea of what they should be doing.

But then, I don't expect dogs to stop screwing on my lawn just because it's immoral. I just turn the hose on them.

So, I think we should use the hose on corporations when they do something we think they shouldn't.

Now, what great medical breakthroughs, medicine-wise, have come out of socialized medicine recently? There's been a few, including a couple from Cuba, but most are coming from the US because there is more incentive to do the research here. In your socialized system, not only would cures not be pursued, improvements in amelioratives wouldn't be either.

One bright spot is India, which may become a player.

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Where do you get this from?

Now, what great medical breakthroughs, medicine-wise, have come out of socialized medicine recently? There's been a few, including a couple from Cuba, but most are coming from the US because there is more incentive to do the research here.

Is there some study, article, statistic you could point to?

My impression always was that the US v. EU and Japan do the bulk of research and invent most of the new drugs about equally between them. And it's the level of government funding and tax breaks to scientific institutions and private enterprise that make the difference not how much profit is made selling health insurance (do health insurance companies fund any research at all?).

Sic semper tyrannis

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woodsman, woodsman

please stay your axe.

I've been googling on and off all day. I'm very bad at it.

I found this:

American patients are the beneficiaries of more new drug approvals than patients in any other country in the world. A country-by-country analysis of first launches of new chemical entities (NCEs) and first launches of FDA priority-review drugs showed that the U.S. market leads the world in pharmaceutical innovations.
From 1963 to 1999, major U.S. pharmaceutical firms contributed 62 percent more NCEs to the U.S. market than did their European counterparts. The number of novel biotechnology product approvals in the U.S. nearly doubled from 1990 to 1999.
The United States launched 259 drugs in the 1990s, compared to Japan’s second-place showing of 151 launches. It also launched 78 FDA priority-review drugs, compared to 36 by the United Kingdom in second place.

This from a 2002 report.

I also found many European reports lamenting their falling behind, noting that once Europe was the leader, and resolving to come back to prominence. On the other hand, I note that Novartis, based in Switzerland, I think, recently moved their R&D facilities to the US.

I'm stll looking for that clear chart of contry by country new drug finds like i've seen. Help me out.

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Lies, damned lies, and...

I hate to make an obvious point, but this is a good example of how numbers can support or demolish an argument depending on how you approach them:

The United States launched 259 drugs in the 1990s, compared to Japan’s second-place showing of 151 launches. It also launched 78 FDA priority-review drugs, compared to 36 by the United Kingdom in second place.

Let's turn those numbers into percentages based on population size (in other words, all other things being equal, a larger country should be producing more drugs than a smaller one):

Japan: 127 million people, or roughly 1.19 drugs per million
U.S.A.: 302 million people, or roughly 0.86 drugs per million

U.K.: 60 million people, or roughly 0.6 FDA priority-review drugs per million
U.S.A.: 302 million people, or roughly 0.26 FDA priority-review drugs per million

So why is socialized England producing over twice the number of drugs for its resources than we are? Could it be that the argument that socialized medicine stifles innovation is a fabrication, if not an outright lie?

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Thanks for the demonstration

Of course, thjis piece of lying with statistics is really transparent. No one was discussing "drugs developed per unit population."

I would say that this conversation needs to go a few layers deeper than "socialized medicine stifles innovation." The question is why it is that not only do drugs seem to be developed here at a faster rate, but why even companies based in other countries want to launch them here. Further, some companies are moving their research headquarrters here, even as the actual research by even American companies is being outsourced. finally, Europe actually had the lead in new drugs until a decade or so ago.

I'm sure the answer as to why is not so simple as "socialized medicine."

My suggestion is to simply ask the question directly.

As usual, any actual discussion is destroyed by those taking an ideological position for or against socialized medicine, and then connecting that in a broad brush way to drug innovation. It forces one to draw conclusions on questions before and without considering the facts.

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Huh?

The question is why it is that not only do drugs seem to be developed here at a faster rate

Er... they don't. That was the whole point of my statistical experiment. Per capita*, we develop drugs more slowly than in Japan or England.

The lie is in presenting the numbers as if they represent rate (your word), which they most certainly don't. A comparable example: is city A or city B growing at a faster rate, if city A increases by 10 people and city B increases by 20? Ah, you need to know more, don't you? In fact, you need to take the sizes of the city into account, don't you?

Otherwise, I agree that the conversation needs to go deeper than a simple ideological argument.

* - edited since I don't have the numbers on researchers, but I somehow doubt that England is fielding the same number we are. In fact, the numbers might be even worse for us, considering how many people we have working in this country in the medical field.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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"per capita"

is just nonsense.

The rate is "per year."

Population size has nothing to do with it. geesh!

In fact, you need to take the sizes of the city into account, don't you?

If you are talking about rate of increase (or decrease) in population. We are not. We are simply talking about rate of new drug discoveries per country. In fact, it is standard to consider the US v Europe. (15 countries)

It is a term like miles per hour. Drugs per year. You might try to say that it is unfair because we have more people. But remember, Europe had the lead not that long ago. When you think of the great drug companies of my youth, a large per centage of them were European. Now, even some of the European companies are moving the research operations here.

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Perhaps you need a primer in statistics...

We are simply talking about rate of new drug discoveries per country.

Obviously size of the country has nothing to do with it. Next you'll be telling me that the United States produces more drugs than Andorra, and I'll be equally shocked. Clearly our system must be superior to the system in Andorra, then. All five of its citizens would agree.

Incidentally, I looked up the site where you got those statistics. A press release from a U.S. marketing firm? Really?... lol I was hoping for something like an actual academic study. But what's worse is how they try to put a smiley face on what's obviously not a terribly positive picture. Take a look at these numbers side-by-side:

From 1963 to 1999, major U.S. pharmaceutical firms contributed 62 percent more NCEs to the U.S. market than did their European counterparts.

and

Of the $36.5 billion in venture capital funding available in the United States in 2001, about $3 billion—or 8.2 percent—went into biotech. In Europe, about half that amount, or 1.7 billion euros, went into similar research.

So if we set NCEs at 1 for Europe and 1.6 for the U.S. (since the study doesn't give the actual numbers), that means the U.S. is producing 0.53 NCEs for every billion spent, and Europe is producing 0.59 NCEs for every billion spent.

In other words, the only reason they're behind us is because we're larger and wealthier. For every dollar spent on research, they're making better gains. And that's assuming that "European counterparts" means all 15 countries taken as a whole, not individually. If not, the numbers for us are even worse!

That study is as close to "lying with numbers" as one gets without being boldface about it.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Okay, pico

In other words, the only reason they're behind us is because we're larger and wealthier.

If you can justify this logically, I will pay you. What was the only reson they were ahead of us a couple of decades ago?

The only reason. How stupid do you think the people here are? You have no respect.

You win. You aren't interested in honest discussion, you are simply interested in a**hole sophism.

You have a chargee about the statistics, the study I cited from the National Academies, you majke that charge known. If you have a problem with any statistics, provide better statistics.

Again, your sophism is amazing. The question was not how many NCE per unit money spent, it was how many new drug discoveries per country. Period.

The question, I guess, is why it costs so much here, and I guess that has to do with how much it costs to get a drug to market. Think?

YOu can peddle the ideological crap anytime. Let me know if you ever want a real discussion.

I thinhk you
've just poisoned this board beyond redemption.

Jerk!

Fu**l off, b****rd. A**ahole.

God, I hate it when people like you ruin a good thng.

Yerp, China gets more drugs out because they have more people. That's right.

I was so hoping that this place was going to be about intelligenct discussion and not mere chanting.

You sheeple ruin it for us.

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Really sad flameout.

It's pathetic when someone can't acknowledge that he may be mistaken.

The question was not how many NCE per unit money spent, it was how many new drug discoveries per country. Period.

Which is a dishonest claim, given our size. Period. I notice my point on Andorra wasn't lost.

Similarly: Andorra has less crime than we do. Clearly they have a superior penal system, because size of population doesn't matter when studying total numbers. Right?

That is the argument you're making, in essence.

Yerp, China gets more drugs out because they have more people. That's right.

Hey, guess what: this supports my point, too: if China isn't producing the same level of innovation per capita, then they're doing something wrong. That China isn't leading the world is an indication of just how wrong their system is.

But this is a spectacular flameout. Are you going to come in again later and explain that you were just joking? You do that a lot, I've noticed.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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RE: Really sad flameout.

And a fitting tribute to your self-centered intransigence.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Is that directed at me?

I'd be more than happy to pull this whole thread into another diary and let the community decide who's being reasonable/unreasonable.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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RE: Is that directed at me?

Is it attached to your comment?

I note that you took a shot at MS related to making jokes or specifically claiming to make jokes, a lot. I interpretted this as attempting to imply that MS was not playing fair somehow or was somehow dishonest. Was this not you intent?

So I felt obliged to help the pot to see that it was calling the kettle black with respect to it being sad when someone can't admit that they are mistaken. I have noticed that in you a lot too (but not necessarily in this thread as I have not followed it closely).

I have no dog in this fight, but I don't like to pass up a good opportunity when I see one. :)

Please carry on ... as I know you will!

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Reference to something else:

I got angry at a comment of MS's the other day, because I thought it was condescending. He replied that he was only joking, and that we're reading too much into what he rights. That very well may be true, especially for the comments he was addressing.

Here, I'm being semi-snarky, because if that's an attempt at humor, it's pretty far off the mark. But I see why'd you read my response that way.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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RE: Reference to something else:

That's fine. Like I said I have no dog in the fight. The fact that I took the opportunity could be viewed as evidence that you don't give me many! :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Thank you!

Now I just have to wonder why it has taken everyone else so long to notice what I saw in MS the first day.

Brendan?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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What I see

is people talking past each other. Pico wants to discuss per capita NCEs and MS wants to look at either per country or US v Europe, as woodsman brought up originally.

Seems likely to me that both population size and regulatory process + profit incentive must play a role. More data is needed to disentangle it, I think. I highly doubt it's a nice linear problem.

It's regrettable that MS lashed out at pico, and I hope he returns, apologizes, and continues the conversation. What you think you saw in MS is personal to you, in my opinion -- recall, for example, that pico was one of many disagreeing with your interpretation of the Coulter incident, or recall the result of the discussion on Cheney's stock options. If you don't find discussions with MS fruitful then by all means ignore him; if you wish to dispute something he says then feel free.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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One thing is clear

... the conversation needs to go deeper than a simple ideological argument.

Sic semper tyrannis

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also, woodsman

I note that the pharmaceutical companies themselves are merging and becoming more international, and American companies are doing more of their research overseas. they have long done production overseas. It is also true, I learned that foreign countries also like to launch new drugs in the US.

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More for woodsman

Just found this pdf relatively hot off the press.

Check it out.

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Thanks Madscientist

I have no axe to grind dude. I just tried to google some info on the subject and really could not find anything that would conclusively tie inventiveness, level of research, etc. to a particular healthcare model. We will have more of that discussion in the future so maybe there will be some really comprehensive studies written, taking into account all the various factors involved in deciding how different countries are doing in this area.

Sic semper tyrannis

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RE: In fact, I did not say the same thing twice.

In fact, you did. You're talking about cures vs. symptom treatments.

If a drug company developed a "cure" for allergies (which I doubt is even possible) the profit potential for that would be huge! How much would people pay for a cure vs. an on-going treatment regime? I would say quite a bit. And you have a continuing supply of patients even in this case because new people are being born all the time!

Even if they don't develope a cure, isn't a new drug for allergies which has less side effects a benefit to society just the same?

Your basic premise that the net present value of a new "symptom treatment" (or even a whole series of "symptom treatments" over time) is somehow greater than the net present value of a cure for the same ailment is without any economic basis.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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RE: This is nonsense

Oh, oh! Wait!

Don't forget smallpox, diptheria, tetnus, rabies, distemper, anti-biotics, fungicides, anti-parasitics, acid reflux, erectile dysfunction, hair loss ...

Nope, no advancements or cures found in there.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Usual drivel

Of course. I well remember while people were dying around me of polio wishing that that there might be some way to cure the disease, or, even better, to prevent the disease. But, you know, it never happened, even though someone leaked that some doctor the name of Salk had developed a preventative vaccine. There was a huge industry at that time treating polio victims in hospitals, and that meant lots of drugs were being sold to aid in that treatment. A whole system of spas and clinics provided all kinds of care for those who had survived polio but suffered after effects. FDR, for instance, spent a mint on such care. And we all know the rotten, evil capitalists in the health care system weren't going to allow some vaccine to interrupt their profit stream. So, they quashed it, and no one brought it to market.

Pico points out that drug companies have an economic diincentive to cure a disease rather than sell symptom treatments to which you reply by discussing polio.

What pharma company was Salk working for again? Oh he wasn't? He was working for a state run university? And you left out this piece of info because it completely demolished your argument? Huh. I see.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Sorry

has nothing to do with my argument. In fact, Salk's research was sponsored byu the March of Dimes (Then called the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis.) You may want to contribute today for their present reserch. Here is how, and you can check out their other contributers; March of Dimes

Companies made the vaccine. In fact, one company made a batch that actually caused polio.

What you point out actually makes a case for support of university research in basic science. At the time, culturing the poliovirus was very difficult. Once that was accomplished (with monkey kidney cells) then the way was clear.
\
Pico CLAIMS that companies have an economic disincentive to cure a disease. He gets this from his mind, not from research. It depends on his view that these companies, like all companies, are basically evil. Something you share, of course.

"Jack, I think I've discovered a drug that will cure ling cancer."

Sam, put a lid on it. We don't want to cure any disease. We're a company with a disincentive.

Who was Sabin working for?

And you left out this piece of info because it completely demolished your argument?

What waqs my demolished argument. Perhaps you should repeat it back to me.

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I'm not sure why you keep claiming this:

It depends on his view that these companies, like all companies, are basically evil.

I've rebutted that a few times: just because I think companies will act in their best interest does not mean that I think companies are evil. This formulation depends on your view that, as a liberal, I must view companies as evil. But you'll not find it anywhere in anything I've said.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Say pico

Have you said that companies would ignore a cure to keep developing symmptomatic relief drugs?

That would be evil.

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In fact I did not.

I said they'd have no incentive to aim their research in that direction in the first place. These are not the same thing by a long shot. And it's certainly not "evil".

You keep banging the wrong drum.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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iN FACT

there is an incentive, but it is just not a place where the science is very advanced. Besides, as you might expect, other diseases get more push.

When noodling around today, I found a chart/map that showed that Pharma research facilities tend to map to basic science research centers (Like Palo Alto, New Jersey, Rhine Valley, London suburbs). I also learned that increasingly, the research is being done by startup and entrpreneurial companies that mediate between basic research centers and big Pharma companies.

I also found that the average cost to bring a drug to market is $900 million.

So, several sources said, the problem is the "blockbuster" problem, that each company needs blockbusters to stay afloat. Why? A 2005 article pointed out that 25% of Merck's income was from Zocor, which was going off patent in 2006. Usually, the article said, going off patent will cost the company about half its sales in that drug. (I just looked up and they had between 5 and 6 billion in sales for Zocor in 2002, 2003, and 2004.)

So, the search and need for a blockbuster drug is much more of a problem than this off the top of your head no incentive to cure thing.Remember, at the same time, Merck was taking a beating on Vioxx, and also was beat by Brazil on a patented AIDS drug. (That is, Brazil decided not to honour their patent.)

So here is the picture: The companies are dependent on blockbuster drugs, which must be sold at higher prices in the US to support the government monopoly controlled prices abroad. In this way, they can support research on non-blockbuster drugs.

Many researchers in Europe point to price controls on drugs as the culprit in slowing research there, not socialized medicine precisely. They also say that the government controlled systems there are less open to new medications and innovative treatments.

And now you see why merck wanted you to ask your doctor about Zocor, and needed people to take that instead of some off-patent statin. In the meantime, Merck drastically slashed its prices on Zocor in an effort to keep some of its business, and licensed certain pill formulations to one company so that they could get some licensing fees for those formulations.

………… parent

Do you have a link to the study?

I'm amenable to the idea that drug development is expensive, risky business: but I'd like to see the study that discusses how price controls slow research. If the research is subsidized, how does that even figure? It seems like the market requirements to stay afloat pose a greater challenge to independent research, since - as you've pointed out - research has to be directed towards blockbuster drugs in order for the company to stay afloat at all. Which is, I believe, the claim I've been making from the beginning, with a different face: all the blockbuster drugs of the last decade have been temporary medicines (antihistamines, antidepressants, etc.) rather than vaccines, etc. Yes, vaccines are a lot harder to develop, but if I'm reading you correctly, you're arguing that companies need these blockbuster drugs - how does that differ significantly from what I've been arguing?

This is why I don't consider the development of temporary medications "evil": the companies do what will keep them afloat financially. As it turns out, that means antihistamines, Viagra, Zoloft, etc.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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The cold facts

are that there are instances where not curing people creates more profit.

And there are instances when the technical research is done extremely well, as at Walter Reid, but the after care is an after thought.

I really like the idea of monetary incentives or bonuses for Dr's who keep their patients healthy. You get a cash reward for helping folks to stop smoking, or for normalizing their blood sugar level so they don't have to go on insulin. That's what they do in the UK.

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No

there are times when it is not profitable to pursue a cure. That's one of the reasons we have the orphan drug legislation.

In fact, if you are an insurance company, the longer you keep them alive, the more money you make off of them.

In fact, that general priniple ois p-art of the problem: the olnger people live, the more their health care costs rise. So, the more successful a healthcare program, the more it ngenerates costs.

In a way, as economists have proven, if we were going to a government systemn, we could do the taxpayer a favor and have the doocs hand out cigarettes. Any health care costs which arie from smoking are erased by their dying younger.

………… parent

I remember receiving polio shots and later, the Salk vaccines,

that were drinkable, as a young kid growing up. Mighty glad my sister and I did.

………… parent

Shots were Salk

drinkable was Sabin.

………… parent

RE: Do you think

Do you think that we are not over-medicated as a society? I've posted some links that make that argument, so I'd be interested to know what your opinions are on this.

Well, that sort of depends. What is the "right" amount of medication? That's not actually a naturally defined term (sort of like "innocent") and so it depends on someone to provide the definition.

So here's a question: as a drug company, does it make more economic sense for you to develop a medication that keeps symptoms at bay, or one that cures a disease? Clearly the first, and this may go a long way towards explaining why we're such a pill-based culture. Likewise, is it more worth it for a doctor to bill insurance companies for multiple visits, or for a single, comprehensive visit? Again, the first brings in more cash.

Not so clear to me, actually. Which would you, as the patient, pay more for a band-aid (i.e. a treatment of the symptom) or a cure? Clearly the latter. The market would work out the economics of where the differing price points lie and it is NOT at all clear that there wouldn't be MORE profit in the cure (on a drug for drug basis).

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Give a shout out

to the better half for tricking you into seeing the movie!

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Nicely balanced analysis

Maybe I can convince my wife to read this so we don't have to see Sicko and can go to Harry Potter instead =)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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A refreshingly unbiased account! n/t

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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They usually are, of course. ;) n/t

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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RE: They usually are, of course. ;) n/t

Geeze, you try and you try to give a guy a compliment ...

:)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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How much choice

do you have now in who your insurance provider is?

Are you happy with your current health insurance?

Do you feel like it is offering you adequate coverage.

And of course the price of this for profit 'great deal' we are all getting includes the millions of dollars in salary for the CEO's.

Why not alliviate the middle man.

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Best iedea you've had

eliminate the middle man.

Just the patient and the ddoctor. Now outside payers of any kind. Especially government, the most ham-handed of middlemen.

Right?

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Incorrect

The point is to eliminate the middle man, being the for profit company with all the glitter of CEO stock options, private jets and millions per year in annual salary, pecking at the money you pay for your insurance which raises your health care costs.

A government service like the VA, for the public good and not for profit serving the people, including business. That doesn't mean money isn't changing hands, or that people aren't working, it means that the third rail is removed therefore costs go down. Cost incentives or bonuses for staying healthy would be a plus.

I haven't heard too many folks complain about the service they have gotten from the VA until it was underfunded by our current administration.

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HAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHA

Costs go down

! HAHAHA

You are funny! Geesh! My sides hurt.

I haven't heard too many folks complain about the service they have gotten from the VA until it was underfunded by our current administration.

You are such a partissan idiot sometimes. Of course, the Bush administration has increased the funding for VA. And ofcourse the VA hosp[ital has had a bad reputation since there have been VA hpospitals.

How bad? My dad died rather than be transferred to a VA hospital. That would be in 1976.

You are insulting our intelligence here with your blind adherence to your faith.

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Funny my dad has gotten

good service and good prices from them.

Cheaper than his normal insurance, which is why he switched to use his VA benefits.

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I think that is good

The reason they were going to transfer my dad to the VA hospital is because he had NO insurance, but he did have VA benefits.

It would have been cheaper for him for sure.

He just felt it was a death sentence, and he died before 24 hours were out after hearing that he was to be transferred. The doc said he simply lost his will to live.

btw., my dad's kidneys shut down on his admission, but then came back. Despite this, every day he was in the hospital, a kidney specialist came into his room, walked to the end of his bed, picked up his chart, signed it, and charged $485. Not bad for 30 seconds of work. That was a month's salary for some workers at the time.

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WE should point out

that the good prices your dad gets are not the prices. He gets them because mky wife helps pay for his treatment.

And he deserves to have her do that because of his service.

That's not the point.

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You don't get it

The govt can offer a single payer service cheaper, because they eliminate the CEO salary.

We already pay higher costs for health care, cause like it or not you pay for those who can't either with your taxes or with higher premiums to cover those who have no insurance and go to the hospital.

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I know I don't get it

The govt can offer a single payer service cheaper, because they eliminate the CEO salary.

But they don't eliminate government costs. People work in government as well. And remember, it is the government, some health insurance company, which is famous for buying $500 muscle propelled metal headed nail driving devices. Not exactly the paragons of frugality, to my mind. (And just so you don't have to read my mind, this argument is meant to be cautionary, not necessarily decisive.) Too often, dreamers think that if we take the proivate model, and let the government do it, the government will do exactly the same thing, but subtract the profit out of the costs, and thus be cheaper in what it does.

Your argument must be that the government can do it cheaper. And you must also argue that the people in government have an incentive to keep down costs (that get added into the bill) that those in private companies don't have.

The answer won't come from fgreat minds thinking about it in the abstract. The answer comes from studying reality.

Since I've worked in the mental health care system for most of my life, which is state run, I know a thing or two about it. I know that the mental health care system is inadequate and incredibly expensive. And I know that a private system won't change that.

I also know that when I worked at private mental hospitals occassionally, they provided better care, but only for the rich and insured. (One private hospital I worked at actually had a unit for teenage gang members, whose parents happened to have insurance.)

On the other hand, one intake hospital I worked at had regular "midnight admissions," that is, admits from private hospitals who discharged their patients at midnight on the day that their insurance ran out. They were nice enough to drive them over!

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Your years of experience

have left you, what, this cynical.

No they don't eliminate government cost...... but it eliminates the profits motive, the takings of the middle men, the pecking vultures who want to charge extra for your insurance, or maybe give you one more test or operation because that is NOT what the Dr. thinks but that is what the insurance company thinks.

There are clearly effective models to draw on from other countries that work, that the residents use and like, that save money for businesses to better health over all and the freedom of not having to pay for the employees health insurance. It IS a win win!

We see that for this to work the govt needs to be held accountable to good service (which we see at the VA) and better transparency. And the added bonus is that transparency would help with this grizzly lobbying problem. Another win win.

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Dream on

Life is just more complicated than your girlish fantasies!

For instance, if you bothered to read:

but it eliminates the profits motive, the takings of the middle men, the pecking vultures who want to charge extra for your insurance, or maybe give you one more test or operation because that is NOT what the Dr. thinks but that is what the insurance company thinks.

Which is it? Do those evuil insurance companies and HMOs want to spend more for treatment, or to cut back on it to increase profits? In fact, when money is spent for unnecessary tests, it is usually because the money comes from the government, and/or the doctor ior facility is trying to avoid lawsuits.

And you have ignored that having the government take over justg means that the government will be telling the doctors what to do. Ever work with Medicare?

In 1988, Medicare declared that they would pay mental hospitals for 6 days per hospital visit for schizophrenia. Since Schizophrenics are often hospitalized for months, this put a little crunch on hospitals dependent on government funding from Medicare. The result? people were routinely dumped to get the average stay down.

This isn't something that "might" happen. It did happen.

It is not that companies and the government are evil; it is because there are economic realities that each must face. Now, one of these two has an incentive to keep costs down; the other doesn't. (Except that even in government, eventually, the money runs out.)

btw, one hospital I worked at used the threat of VA transfer as a club to get patients to stop acting out, as in attacking people. The threat was specific to a particular hospital in the area which was known to be vile and disgusting. Once we even mentined that hospital, they became cooperative. Too bad we didn't have more veterans.

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Your right

There are no solutions. Either the govt controls us, or the insurance companies do. It's hopeless.

Every suggestion to change things for the better it just bad. All notions to serve the people as a society are just a milktoast bleeding heart appeals to pull on the heart strings of those that are afraid to go to a government doctor.

We should live in utter fear of the government every single day. It is clearly ruining our lives and has greater power over us than we could ever imagine.

I know this because you tell me over and over how awful our own US government is. We need to avoid our own government at all costs. (Unless of course there is a war, then we need to support it at all costs... so confusing)

Have I ever worked with medicare? I work for medicare helping sick folks get along. I brighten their day.

You will have to excuse me now, but I am going to celebrate freedom...... from cynicism.

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What are you talking about?

The options aren't all this ideological approach, or all that ideological approach, or there are no solutions.

There are practical solutions that depend on seeing the whole picture.

Trick the first. Take care of the Medicare unfunded liability before adding more entitlements. Otherwise, any move to national health care will be moot.

You should try letting people speak for themselves.

Once again, I was thinking of writing an essay on this subject. What was I going to say?

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No contradiction at all

A final note on the film: it doesn't help when Moore's clearly bending the material. In the infamous Cuban segment - infamous because it's already sparked more debate than the nearly 2 hours of material devoted to our healthcare crisis - Moore lauds the Cuban system, which he notes is world-famous for its excellence (no specifics given). However, earlier in the film he presented a list of the countries with the best healthcare: and Cuba was two slots below the United States. This isn't necessarily a contradiction, but Moore's silence on such a glaring juxtaposition doesn't speak much to his straightforwardness on the issues.

There's really no contradiction here at all, the factor not mentioned is the per capita spending as illustrated by this graph:

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php

the line is spending per capita while the blue bars are life expectancy. Cuba is essentially tied with tht us in terms of life expectancy and yet it spends about one hundredth as much per person. In other words despite decades of being embargoed and isolated by a belligerent superpower a tiny island communist state has provided health care at least equal to that of the US. They have every disadvantage and we have every advantage and yet they tie us.

That's a huge deal.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Germany also enjoy good

socialized health care.

I don't see a hue and cry of protest to change it.

Imagine the relief to businesses if they didn't have to worry about coughing up the cash for health care.

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That is an amazing graph.

And it highlights - far better than my diary here - how badly we're mucking this system up. Thank you.

As I pointed out, my issue with Moore's claim is simply that he doesn't explain it - and it required a graph from another website to explain it to me. Granted, if Moore's documentaries were loaded down with graphs, it's likely no one would watch them.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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True

As I pointed out, my issue with Moore's claim is simply that he doesn't explain it - and it required a graph from another website to explain it to me.

Yeah, I see your point there.

Granted, if Moore's documentaries were loaded down with graphs, it's likely no one would watch them.

From what I understand, Gore did alright converting his slideshow to a movie.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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That's true, but

would that documentary have gotten a fraction of the same profits without Gore at the helm? For comparison's sake, here were the box office receipts:

An Inconvenient Truth = $24 million
Farenheit 9/11 = $119 million

Granted, F9/11 was running after Moore had received an Oscar for his previous documentary, and it covered a much more public and controversial topic. (The earlier Bowling for Columbine grossed about the same as Gore's film.)

SiCKO is already approaching $12 million

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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And Moore is

donating all his profits for research into the causes and prevention of asthma, right?

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Moore is creating jobs

in the film industry. Employing people and giving them full coverage health care insurance, including dental with a low co-pay.

He is trying to bring attention to matters that have been ignored for far too long. People are talking. Is that bad?

Clearly Moore is selling a product that is in demand. Is there a problem with liberal capitalists?

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The makers of Claritan

are creating and sustaining jobs in the long term, and, I dare say, more jobs than Moore. They are also doing something for the good of people with diseases.

Moore, on the other hand, has gotten personally rich by lying to credulous people like you.

(For instance, I still run into people who think that Roger Smith refused to meet with Moore, when in fact, he actually met with him!)

It's not that i don't like Moore. I watdched his TV show, and I supported the Ficus candidate. But he is not making documentaries with the purpose of telling the truth. He is also very clever at suggesting things that aren't true (like the bin Laden family was allowed to leave the country without FBI clearance).

I would appreciate someone actually doing what you state, bringing attention to these matters. Not only did Moore not do that, it wasn't his purpose.

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I see so. if a person presents a point of view

you personally disagree with, then they don't deserve to make money.

Interesting.

Really you are so much more partisan than you pretend to be.

Why do you bring all these distracting side issues here when the subject is health care. I am sure when Moore was three he might have done something you could find fault with also.

Even Fox News gave Sicko a good review. I guess you just belong to the religous antiMoore cult.

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I have no problem

with Moore making money. He is a living example of the old saws:

1) A fool and his money are soon parted;

2 No one ever went broke overestimating the stupididty of the American people.

What he does, he does well, and is entertaining: that's why I watched every episode of his show.

But here, OTHERS have argued that he should be about not making money, like the makers of Clariton, but about providing some benefit to society. One would think that on this topic, he would be plowing the profits into healthcare.

One remembers that for years, Ralph Nader took a $10,000/yr salary from his organization which investigated consumer fraud and product safety.

You will also note that I haven't commented specifically on this movie. Haven't seen it.

You should noty try to read my mind. It makes you look like a complete and utter idiot. My point is that Mr. Moore uses documentaries to spread lies. Maybe he did so again, but those who think he is a crusader for the public good are fools.

I say he should get all the money he can. He is a prime example of how one can become a success in capitalism. And he is very smart. Imagine the advertising benefits of paying his employees (temporary in nature) health and dental benefits! This advertising will spread by word of mouth, without the need for costly media buys.

Smart guy who deserves every penny he gets, in my opinion.

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btw, missliberties

Before pico put up this essay on healthcare, I was thinking of writing one myself.

What was i going to say?

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Oooh, I know this one!

Something about how politicians should make healthcare policy decisions based upon what "will work best" and legal and constitutional principles rather than "Ideology" or "morality" ?

I'm guessing any statements talking about the moraltiy of letting children die from treatable diseaases would be met with comparisons with Pat Robertson or Dr Dobson and their willingness to legislate based on their morality. Responders would get upset, at which point you'd point you'd complain that they were reading your mind and being deliberately insulting.

GoRight would agree and point out the emotionalism of referring to children without health insurance while Ender would point out how you shouldn't take it personally as Liberals just don't have a sense of humor.

MissLiberties would crack first and start getting really sarcastic, Specter (or maybe Brendan, depends on who was on duty) would ask everyone to calm down, while Pico engaged in a noble, but ultimately doomed attempt to engage purely on policy.

That's my entry into the pool. Might not win, but it is certainly the safest money.

Or, you could actually write your own response rather than just mentioning the idea as part of a guessing game. Boy, showing me how wrong I was would sure wipe the smile off of my face

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I'll give you this much

Something about how politicians should make healthcare policy decisions based upon what "will work best" and legal and constitutional principles rather than "Ideology" or "morality" ?

And, of course. we might go back and ask the questions I put up right after pico put up the essay. We always start too late in the argument. For instance:

I'm guessing any statements talking about the moraltiy of letting children die from treatable diseaases

[Edit; is this one of those liberal emotional statements everyone has been talking about?]

Assumes a lot. And besides, why would you do that?

But you'd be surprised at what I've developed over the years.

Just to stimulate a little thought, what do youmake of this, which I found in an article that went on to damn managed care:

The 1716 New York Midwives Oath, the earliest formulation of medical ethics in the United States, unequivocally states a midwife's obligation "to help any woman in labor, whether she be poor or rich . . . in time of necessity."6 A similar sentiment was expressed a half century later in the constitution of the first permanent US medical society, which stipulated that physicians must "always most readily and cheerfully assist gratis . . . the distressed poor."7 Medical professionals in colonial American society considered themselves obligated to provide care to those in "distress," or in "time of necessity," irrespective of a patient's ability to pay.

The foundational document of US medical ethics, the Code of Ethics adopted by the American Medical Association at its founding meeting in 1847, reinforces this obligation. It stipulates that the first and preeminent duty of a physician is to "come when called," that is, to attend to patients during an acute illness or an emergency. In the prologue to the Code duties and rights are held to be correlative. This implies that patients have a correlative right to be attended to in emergencies—even "when pestilence prevails," for physicians also have a "duty to face the danger, and to continue their labors for the alleviation of suffering, even at the jeopardy of their own lives."

The moral tradition formalized in these earlier codes of medical ethics continues to this day: like their 18th-century counterparts, emergency department nurses and physicians still see everyone "in time of need," regardless of the patient's ability to pay. A patient's right to emergency care is thus the most enduring right in US medical ethics.

Here, as is proper, the right to care is formulated as related to a moral obligation, that of real human beings that actually provide the care.

Shouldn't we start here?

JAMA article quoted above.

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Thanks for the laugh! n/t

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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But didn't you say above

that we can't make these easy corollations?

[I was noodling around and found this article in NYTimes business. Just putting it here for you to look at if you want. It's short.]

One difference between the US and other countries is that we don't allow people to die. We spend an inordinate amount of money on end-of-life care. Check this article for some figures.


This article
reports a Mayo Clinic study on ICU use by end-of-life patients, a great expense.

I saw a few years ago someone make one of those back of the envelop calculations that if we just let people die a couple of weeks earlier when we knew they were going to die of he disease they had no matter what we did, we sould save enough to put our spending in line with other nations.

They spend more earlier to p[revent disease, while we spend an immense amount to stave off death as long as possible.

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Curious:

One difference between the US and other countries is that we don't allow people to die. We spend an inordinate amount of money on end-of-life care. Check this article for some figures.

I read the whole article, but was unable to find anything that spoke to a "difference between the US and other countries". As far as I can see, no other country was mentioned, even in passing. I double checked the other article, too, but could find nothing.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Actually, pico

I just made that up. Just lied for the pure pleasure of it.

You might enjoy this article from the NYTimes. (I had to sign in.) It actually makes a pretty good case for a universal program, but also discusses a number of other issues you seem to be interested in, including end-or-life care, which are involved in why America pays so much. (Some of the article and a small discussion here.; )

I did find an article that actually says that the claim I repeated is a myth, at least for Canada, and that both Canada and America spend 10-12% of healthcare costs for the last two months of life. In that article, alternative and cheaper measures were the issue, like hospice care.

A bit off topic, but I found this from Spain. (Unfrotunately, the rest of the art56icle was hidden behind a pay barrier):

In the canonical scheme of American bioethics, out of the four basic ethical principles (ie, autonomy of the patient, beneficence, nonmaleficence, and justice), autonomy and beneficence receive absolute priority. Beneficence is impossible without autonomy, and thus justice has only a compensatory role. From a European perspective, the basic theoretical underpinning of American bioethics is clearly utilitarian. On the other hand, the Spanish and Continental European tradition relies heavily on European philosophy that has, for most of the time, believed that there are absolute principles in which to ground morals. Therefore, there are absolute obligations prior to the empiric autonomy of the individual, and these may be synthesized in the two basic ethical principles of nonmaleficence and justice.

The author goes on to say that the locus of control in Europe ois not with the patient, and this has consequences for such things as informing the patient of the extent of his illness, and allowing the family to have more of a say in care and extending life.

Here ius an op-ed that makes the same claim, but without backup. It says that Eurpopean nations that must keep costs down have made an effort to reduce end-of-life costs.

Right here is a European view, which says, in part:

There are only two ways to keep the present government-run European health-care systems going. One can either drastically increase the financial burden on those at the paying end of the system – the young and healthy of today – or one can drastically limit the quality and the availability of health care for those at the receiving end – the sick and the elderly.

For decades governments increased the financial burden on the working population. When this burden became intolerable, they shifted their policies towards cutting back quality. In Europe there are medical treatments, operations or drugs which are not available to persons above a certain age, or to persons who are considered too sick, or to anyone at all. Political authorities, claiming to be the guardians of solidarity in society, decide who is allowed to get what kind of treatment, operation or drug.

I'll keep looking.

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Two Points

1. I think at some point the demographics of a country and the population numbers matter at some point. Universal health coverage seems to work best in countries with relatively small populations. To add to the anecdotal stories, my gf is from the Bahamas and has no clue why our "rich" country cannot cover its entire citizenry, and my only argument I can put forth at this point is that coverage is not mandatory and that its probably a lot easier to cover 300,000 people (Bahamian population size) than to cover our very diverse 300 Million resident country. (Cuba has about 11 Million People). It would be interesting to see a graph showing the correlation of % of residents covered Vs. resident population by country.

2. Quality of care, where you mentioned above, also plays an important part I'm sure. Not to mention other factors such as diet and exercise habits of certain countries. (Japan has a pretty wide lead up there). Technologies that we have in the US that discourage us from exercising/staying active (cars and the wide spaces we have to drive them, video games, etc.) give us the ability to be sedentary and still accomplish a lot. I haven't been very many places internationally, but spending a couple days outside the country I could see that many places offer smaller portions in food when you go out, more people walk to where they need to go, etc.

I think the big reason people worry about the overuse of socialized medicine, even at a hybrid level, is that the American lifestyle (which is usually more technologically advanced and "Bigger" in many ways) will overtax the system.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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Inotherwords,

The United States has the highest healthcare costs of all!! Even people who have good healthcare coverage are paying premiums that're going through the roof! It's disgusting.

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health care

HI all you ladies and gentlemen on Swords Crossed. I have been a " lurker" for some time and I enjoy the diaries here and the comments. I have not seen Sicko yet but since I work in healthcare ( RN ) I feel qualified to make some comments.
We have a good system here if you have excellent insurance, my daughter does not have any health insurance , she was actually turned down by Blue Cross because she had a bad driving record!

( in the course of my trying to find out why she was rejected , ( thinking she had AIDS or something she was not telling me ) I found out that " we do not have to tell you why we are rejecting you " , ( the state Attorney confirmed this fact ) but by process of elimination the nice lady eventually hinted strongly that it was " bad driving record " ... this is America folks . My daughter has worked since age 16, she is now 22, going to college part time . There are a lot of strong feelings out there re. health care. It is also becoming generational in nature , since the Medicare crowd will over power the system . It will be huge expense in the coming years.

sligowoman

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My daughter

is the same age, has a bad drivving record, and I wouldn't insure her.'

maybe there should be a "high risk" pool for health insurance.

btw (from below) I wish I could get my daughter to get the HPV. She just won't. Stupid.

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Any particular reason why?

HPV has a really nasty way of spreading throughout the population, and even if your daughter is engaging in 100% safe behavior, the lack of symptoms means it's far more widespread than most people think.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Uh, unlike me

she's lazy and stubborn.

My wife has even offered to pay for the course.

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I would really appreciate it

if you could write more about this topic. It's fairly obvious this isn't my area of expertise, and I think Madscientist would gladly agree. :)

Seriously, though, I would like to hear more information from someone working within the industry, your perspectives, etc. And thanks for lurking!

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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health care

I forgot to add that Ezra Klein has done some excellent compare and contrast diaries about healthcare. He is an expert in my book and he has an excellent blog at EzraKlein.com He is one young smart fella , and we need lots of those to help us with this problem.
My point about the problem being generational, one example ,,, I paid for my daughter to get the HPV vaccine ( prevents cervical cancer ) it cost me $700. Every day I take care of seniors who are at end of life , with incurable cancer and getting blood products ( some have weeks or months to live ) yet they get state of the art care... they even get touchy if the Blood Bank do not snap to and get them their blood ASAP .... one last week was highly pissed when the blood bank ran out of his type ....... and he only got one unit instead of 2 ..... How do we solve these problems ? Rationing will have to be addressed at some point ..... its a sore subject but we cannot prolong the inevitable for ever.

sligowoman

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Thanks for joining the conversation.

There's a nurse in the house.

The problem is mind boggling.

I have told my husband that if I am old and sick I want to die at home. I don't want him to morgage the house and savings to keep me alive for three more weeks. I mean this may sound cold....... but in a sense we allow our dogs more dignity in death than we do old people. It is a self determination, as to what lengths you are willing to go to keeping someone alive.

NOt sure if it's true but I read that 30% of the cost of health care goes for the last months of life.

I have also told him...... if something happens to me, please don't call an ambulance...... just drive me to the hospital. If you think the ambulance is a public service you would be wrong.

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I read today that it is

10-12%, still a substantial amount.

The figure rises higher if it is measured differently. Sometimes it is mentioned that up to 40% of the health care costs of the last year of life is spent in the last month of life.

Also mentioned in the materials I have been looking at that a majority of people in the US want to die at home, but the majority actually die in a hospital or LTC facility, at a much higher cost than if under hospice or other palliative care.

A couple of sources say that living wills and such are largely ignored because hospitals fear lawsuits if they don't do every thing possible to keep people alive for those last two weeks.

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Evidence Medicare- Socialized gives good care

Every day I take care of seniors who are at end of life , with incurable cancer and getting blood products ( some have weeks or months to live ) yet they get state of the art care...

Medicare is socialized medicine and is not rationing care, even giving state of the art care to dying seniors.

HMO will probably deny them or make their premium so high that they drop out.

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jasmine

Problem is that Medicare is unsustainable, and will bankrupt the country within a few decades. Bankrupt as in fall from the ranks of top countries. Then we will not be able to afford even minimal health care.

How doyou propose we solve that problem?

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Medicare is not unsustainable

We only pay 2.9% (1.5% employee, 1.5%employer) on the first $97,000/yr salary.

Thus there are many ways to increase and expand Medicare. The money used for Iraq War is much more than enough to provide Medicare for everybody.

Why is it almost all the industrialized countries have socialized medicine.

That says a lot.

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jasmine, be real

what is the unfunded liability now in Medicare, how long has it been known, what is anyone in Congress doing about it now?

What are the effects of demographics on it?

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Well

using 2004 figures the program brought in 174 billion and cost 269 billion. That's a short fall of 95 billion.

By way of comparison the Iraq war cost us $77 billion in 2004. That almost makes up the entire shortfall on its own. Throw in the 10 billion we wasted on a ballistic missile defense program and we're just about in the black.

Of course we could also have covered the shortfall by raising the normal 2.9% payroll tax up to 4.5%

We can easily cover medicare if we choose to, it's the peoplwho insist on wasting money on military boondoggle projects and the people who insist they not be taxed, i.e. the stupid and the greedy, that are the problem, not the program.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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RE: Well

using 2004 figures the program brought in 174 billion and cost 269 billion. That's a short fall of 95 billion.

I guess it is easy to look like you are being cost efficient when you are running 95 billion in the hole and with the baby boomers retiring likely to increase.

The commentary on the war spending is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Remember Medicare is >65 years old, sick

Imagine if you extend Medicare to healthy younger population who will pay either by increase taxes (but still lower than premiums to private insurance) --- Medicare will not lose money.

Now it is demographics. Medicare is paying also for all the dialysis patients, the disabled and the elderly cohorts --more sick --and being funded by decreasing working population. (working:retired ratio is decreasing).

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just as accurate as usual

The commentary on the war spending is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

direct quote from the "discussion at hand":

The money used for Iraq War is much more than enough to provide Medicare for everybody.

http://www.swordscrossed.org/node/1320#comment-57680

Is there some particular reason you are making so many obvious mistakes today? I'm starting to feel a little guilty swinging at these softball pitches.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Why not just let Medicare compete in Marketplace

Here is my proposal:

1. Make health care a right by law.
2. Make Medicare compete in the marketplace
3. Those who cannot afford inusurance can have their medicare premium subsidized.

If Insurances companies slowly die out--that is good. If they win in the competition then that is good too.

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People less than 65 can buy Medicare (5% tax on their income)

If more healthy people buy Medicare ---that could even save Medicare now since as of now Seniors who are more likely more sick use Medicare --expensive subset of patiens.

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Medicare

I did not know one could buy into Medicare except under certain conditions.

overall I favor a system like Medicare as it certainly is very EFFICIENT , everyone , esp doctors agree , IT WORKS.... and with computers and electronic records now we can make it even more efficient.
Once we shift the focus from trying to get out of covering a treatment ( current mode of HMO's ) to prevention and a universal system it will be so much easier .

sligowoman

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That was a proposal--it cant be done today.

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ah I see Jasmine. I agree

ah I see Jasmine. I agree with all you have said, its an excellent system and we should keep it and expand on it . when we find something that works ( also social security) we should guard it with our lives !!!

sligowoman

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