Friday open thread

- al-Zawahiri engages his audience in a "fireside chat" about the imminent doom of the West. FDR's were a lot less apocalyptic.

- North Korea demands talks with the U.S. “for the purpose of discussing the issues related to ensuring the peace and security on the Korean peninsula."

- The U.S. House votes for pulling out troops by April. Maybe third time's a charm?

- A McCain aid is arrested for allegedly offering sex to an undercover officer . Do Republicans just have problems getting laid?

- Elephants are breaking free and roaming the streets? Wait, wrong link.

This is your Friday open thread. Treat it gently.

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Today's first topic...Detante with Iran?

I opened my SF Chronicle this AM and what do I see.... I see an Op-Ed titled Detante With Iran. You should read it. It's short. But knowing that some here are averse to seeing what they don't like, here's the Cliff Notes:

"The Arabs' leeriness about Iranian hegemony has been revived by the unraveling of Iraq. Thanks to the U.S. invasion, Iraq is no longer a military rival to Iran, which has cultivated close ties to Iraq's Shiite majority. And America, the only other nation to challenge Iran's geopolitical ambitions, is struggling in the Iraqi quicksand. Iran now has a free hand to exert its influence in Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and the Palestinian territories through pro-Iranian guerrilla and political forces....The Saudis would normally have challenged Iran's expansionist policy from behind the U.S. security shield, but the plight of U.S. forces in Iraq has shattered their faith in that shield, and they have begun courting Tehran. On March 4, the Arab world was mesmerized by TV bulletins showing Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad and Saudi King Abdullah holding hands and smiling warmly in Riyadh....Now, smaller Persian Gulf Arab sheikhdoms, following in the Saudi footsteps, are also mending fences with Iran, with which they have had frosty relations in the past. Oman and the UAE had Ahmedinejad come for state visits. The foreign ministers of Kuwait and Qatar have announced they wouldn't let the Americans attack Iran from their soil."

and

"The animosity between "the Great Satan" and the member of "the Axis of Evil" will eventually give way to the new realities. Washington needs Iranian cooperation to end its disastrous occupation of Iraq, and Iran can't afford further economic sanctions, which U.S. opposition to its nuclear program would entail. Iran's likely acquisition of nuclear weapons capability -- rather than achieving the ability to manufacture the weapons -- could become a catalyst for a deal. Domestic public opinion wouldn't let any Iranian regime stop enriching uranium precipitously under Western pressure. Yet Iranian leaders should be taken at their word when they insist that they don't intend to make the bomb. They know that using a nuke against the United States or Israel would mean national suicide. Either of these countries could devastate Iran in a nuclear counterattack. "

dubya and Darth had wanted to steer the Arab world towards a Pax Americana. It seems they miscalculated slightly. Looks like it'll actually be Pax Iraniana and the NCAP crew will just have to whine and wince wile it sucks eggs.

…………

Detente

While the writer makes some good points, we have a couple of things against us in dealing with Iran that makes today a very different situation than the Soviet detente:

1) the current Administration seems both unwilling and unable to pursue diplomatic initiatives, detente being a particularly tricky thing to pull off, and
2) the American people are not united in support of anything, be it detente, preemptive attack, or something in between.

We have definitely made our former allies in the ME nervous, and they are beginning to hedge their bets. To me, that is one of the the biggest fallouts from the Rumfeld doctrine of this war: we appear weak to our enemies and to our allies.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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RE: Detente

To me, that is one of the the biggest fallouts from the Rumfeld doctrine of this war: we appear weak to our enemies and to our allies.

Sigh.

There MAY be some truth to this point but I don't believe that the issue can actually be summed up this neatly.

I doubt that any of these nations view us as being weak militarily ... as in they would be willing to go head to head in an actual war. So, in terms of taking and holding a piece of ground in a purely military face off I am not worried.

The problem comes in with respect to controlling the masses and providing security for the indigenous people after the fact. In this respect the locals are accustomed to the tactics of dictators and the Soviets for maintaining order. Since we are unwilling to employ those techniques it places a new burden on these people to learn how to maintain their own order. To rely on each other for support rather than the powerful oppressors which they have lived with for hundreds of years.

So, yes, our unwillingness to employ the tactics of the likes of Saddam or Pol Pot or Stalin makes us appear weak in the eyes of these people. What they need to realize is that they need to depend on themselves and not us for their own security.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Detante with Iran?

What about Detante FROM Iran?

The holocaust never happened ...

Israel should be wiped from the face of the Earth ...

Yea, that's what I call diplomatic.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Our options

are not infinite. I'm being pragmatic, not idealistic.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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Why is al-Zawahiri still using up oxygen?

I seem to recall something Bush said about "dead or alive" back in late 2001.

qui tacet consentire

…………

you think

we haven't gotten him on purpose?

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Perhaps

How else to explain this:

A military operation to capture senior al-Qa'eda leaders in Pakistan was abandoned at the 11th hour because of concerns that it could undermine diplomatic relations, it was claimed yesterday.

Details of the planned strike in early 2005 emerged for the first time yesterday in The New York Times, which said the cancellation may have allowed Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden's deputy, to escape.

Several hundred personnel were said to have been involved. But senior officials fretted that the attack might alienate President Pervez Musharraf, a key US ally.

Link

qui tacet consentire

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A McCain aid is arrested for

A McCain aid is arrested for allegedly offering sex to an undercover officer. Do Republicans just have problems getting laid?

It is my thoery that to be a conservative, especially on social issues, requires a certain amount of sexual repression.

It's projection. Because of their own "demons", they attempt to fix all of society.

In the closet? Push for all the anti-homosexual legislation you can.

In a failing marriage? Deny others the right to marry, so you can validate in your own mind the value of marriage.

In my experience, those that are comfortable with their sexuality don't worry about other people's sexual preferences. Those in a happy and satisfying marriage don't feel that homosexual unions threaten the sanctity of marriage.

This has been my experience, mind you... but how come we're always finding that the biggest gay bashers turn out to be gay? (Haggard, etc)

...or that the biggest complainers about the sanctity of marriage and the breakdown of the nuclear family are adulterers? (Gingrich, etc)

Whenever I see some religious right mouthpiece on the stump talking about the evils of gay marriage, I wonder who his boyfriend is.

I survived the Bush Administration

…………

Baseless hyperbole detected!!!

OK, folks. Break it up. Nothing here to see, move along ...

Although, your point about projecting may just be a Freudian slip ...

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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It's only plagerism if I don't identify the source.

"Sixty eight percent of Republicans don't believe in evolution. On the other hand, only five percent of monkeys believe in Republicans."
---Stephen Colbert

And I got it from today's DKos.

…………

hot for hill

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

…………

wow...

...well, if Hillary's cabinet would all look like the star of this video... I might have to change my position on a Hillary presidency.

Seriously though.... this is a continuation of the meme that Hillary is a lesbian.... a claim for which there has never been one shred of evidence. In fact, all evidence has been to the contrary.

...and besides... is this the storyline that the Republican smear machine really wants to push at this time? Is this their attempt at "swift-boating"? Have they lost interest in the "Vince Foster was Hillary's secret lover and was killed to cover up the affair" storyline?

I survived the Bush Administration

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I am pretty sure

this is done by a Hillary supporter as I found out about this video by listening to Fox News on the radio this morning, interviewing the girl who made it.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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I read a while back that the person who did this,

did it as a joke, not to try to Swift Boat Hillary.

I think it's funny as a joke. I'm not surprised there are those out there trying to make it into a serious statement.

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There was the point in the film..

...where there was the "bi" followed a couple seconds later by the "lingual" on the screen.

This is to keep the idea out there that Hillary is a "closet lesbian".

Hey... if it derails her campaign, fine with me. But it smells of dirty pool.

I survived the Bush Administration

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Muslims upset about "Evan Almighty"

News Story Here

Sigh.

F*** all organized religions. F*** them all.

I survived the Bush Administration

…………

relax man

it's just Malaysia... We are not talking about Western Freedoms being threatened here.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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What they should really be upset about...

...is the fact that Evan Almighty is a bad movie.

If they would've said, "Don't see this movie because it sucks", I could respect that.

But "Don't see this movie because it insults Islam"??

Don't see this movie because it insults our intelligence! ;-)

I survived the Bush Administration

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exactly

this is why I did not see it. But there is no reason to slam all religion because some morons in faraway nutland decreed something stupid.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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There are plenty of reasons...

...to slam all religion.

This may not be one of them. ;-)

I survived the Bush Administration

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David Vitter Watch -- Day Five

A stalwart conservative and self-proclaimed defender of traditional marriage, Vitter was nowhere to be seen on the Hill on Monday, and most sources believed him to be remaining in Louisiana to avoid a press onslaught.

Link

There have been no Vitter sightings all week. But there is no truth to the rumor that Vitter's picture will appear on milk cartons throughout Louisiana.

qui tacet consentire

…………

Personally...

...I don't care.

Prostitution should be legal and his sex life and adherence to his marital vows are of no concern to anyone but his immediate family.

Other than exposing him as a hypocrit, this story has no use.

I survived the Bush Administration

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Did you see what the New Orleans Madame said

Vitter liked? Diapers (on him), spankings (again, him) and more I won't mention.

Man, for a conservative who has said out loud that gays should have no rights, and should be publicly chastised for being gay, this guy is one solid hypocrite.

Honestly, I don't care what consenting adults do in their own time. But I do think that some one as into kink as he is shouldn't be in a position to moralize about anyone else. If the good citizens of Louisiana had a recall provision in their state constitution, I'd recommend they use it on this one.

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Recall him for his hypocrisy...

...but not for his "kinky" sex life.

The human being is a sexual creature. As long as all participants in a sexual liaison are consenting, it's nobody's business...

...especially the government's.

Nevada has it right. You can't legislate away vice. Human's are programmed for vice. Let it be.

I survived the Bush Administration

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really?

I didn't see that part. But if that's true, I think we should draw a line somewhere...

For example wearing diapers as a sexual fetish while screwing around with hookers and being married, should be grounds for public ostracism and flogging.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Why?

For example wearing diapers as a sexual fetish while screwing around with hookers and being married, should be grounds for public ostracism and flogging.

Why?

Seriously..... why?

Are we back in Plymouth in the 17th century or something?

It's not MY fetish... but it's also none of my business.

Everyone has some fetish... some more "interesting" than others.

Did any of the participants in Sen. Vitters' sexcapades do so unwillingly? If not... then America should butt out. No pun intended.

I survived the Bush Administration

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dude

it was a joke :) I don't care what that pervert does. :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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It Depends (pun intended)

We like our male politicians to be manly men, so if he gets caught banging a supermodel or three cheerleaders at once we wink and say, "Attaboy, Dave!"

If he wears diapers and wants to be disciplined we pretend that we never heard of him.

qui tacet consentire

………… parent

makes sense

while there obviously should be no legal repercussions for someone wearing diapers, I would not vote for that person :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Well... that certainly explains...

Bubba's popularity.

"The dude is getting a hummer by a 20-year-old in the Oval Office. Yeehaa! You da man!"

;-)

Imagine Clinton's popularity if Monica were actually attractive?

;-)

I survived the Bush Administration

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she was alright

But I was angry anyways!

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Tucker Carlson apparently tried to discuss it yesterday.

Tucker felt it was nobodies business. However (there's always a however), Glenn does a really good job of showing that some feel it's only a scandal if it's a Democrat doing the deed, If it's a Republican, we shouldn't even be discussing a "private" matter.

That's why the blogs are going crazy with this one.

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Interesting that Tucker considers it

a private matter when a Congressman breaks the law.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Diapers?

Holy sh**. He's sunk for sure now.

In Louisiana you can get away with a lot of screwing around, but wearing diapers will get you tarred and feathered.

Do you suppose he uses Depends or Pampers?

qui tacet consentire

………… parent

Someone who

sticks his nose into other people's private life should be exposed and dealt with as harshly for his own behavior as he advocated it for others.

Sic semper tyrannis

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I disagree....

...let's get past eye for eye.

I agree with EJ Dionne Jr.... let's show how we Democrats are different.

Let's do the right thing.. not the thing that feels the best. i.e. exact vengeance.

Vengeance and tit-for-tat are not positive reactions.

We're more likely to win converts to our side if we practice what we preach... not if we jump all over Vitter.

Read EJ Dionne's latest column on the Washington Post's web site (Can't link, because it requires a free registration).

I survived the Bush Administration

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Did you know all it took to get a license from the Nuclear

Regulatory Commission to obtain nuclear materials is a PO Box?

Yes, it true. Congressional investigators set up a dummy company with no internet site or employees. Only a PO Box. And the NRC gave them a license that would allow them to get the radioactive component to create a "dirty" bomb.

This is 6 years after 9/11.

Thank you George W Bush. Your leadership leaves me speechless and in wonder.

…………

Victoria Toensing on the definition of Covert Agent

The primary purpose of the legislation was to protect the lives of those intelligence officers and agents residing overseas. Here is the relevant excerpt from Victoria Toensing's written testimony before congress :

Covert Agent

Under the term “covert agent,” two types of individuals are covered: an officer and an agent. A person working for the CIA is an “officer.” A person who is an informant or source for the CIA is an “agent.” The media often err in this distinction. To make the legislation simpler, the term “covert agent” was used by the drafters to refer to both officers and agents. The Senate Report, when relevant, distinguishes how the law applies to each.

Although a “‘covert agent’ is specifically limited to an individual whose identity as an intelligence agency employee ‘is classified information,’” criminality does not turn on whether the information disclosed is classified. Id. at 15. There should only be prosecution “when the defendant has knowingly disclosed information that, in terms of its specificity, its sensitivity, and the effort expended to maintain its secrecy, is virtually the equivalent of classified information.” Id. In other words, the definition of a covert agent is more than classified and less than classified. It clearly is not synonymous with classified. As the Committee stated, “The mere fact that an intelligence relationship appears in a document which is classified does not constitute evidence that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal the relationship.” Id. at 19.

Significantly, the Senate Report makes clear Congressional desire to limit application of the criminal law to disclosure of selected intelligence officers:

[T]he Committee has carefully considered the definition of “covert agent” and has included only those identities which it has determined to be absolutely necessary to 4 protect for reasons of imminent danger to life or significant interference with vital intelligence activities. Undercover officers and employees overseas may be in special danger when their identities are revealed…. (Emphasis added). Id. at 15.

Notably, the legislation limited coverage of U.S. citizen informants or sources (agents) also to situations where they “reside and act outside the United States.” Id. at 16.

This foreign assignment requirement developed from the impetus for the legislation: attacks on CIA personnel serving abroad. Renegade former CIA officer, Philip Agee, exposed over 1000 CIA officers, which was followed by the December 1975 assassination of CIA Athens Station Chief, Richard S. Welch. In 1980, Louis Wolf, coeditor of the Covert Action Information Bulletin, publicly claimed 15 U.S. officials in Jamaica were CIA. He provided addresses and telephone numbers, information not considered “classified.” Within a week two of those named were attacked. Id. at 8.

Early drafts of the legislation covered only those individuals stationed abroad. During my participation in the negotiations, the CIA brought up the issue that it was not unusual for CIA officers to be rotated back to the United States. Such period of time was for about two to three years. So we agreed to extend coverage for three years after a covert person left a foreign assignment. Then the issue arose that the protection of the Act was not intended just for the CIA officers, but also for their sources. “How long,” we asked, “would be a reasonable time to protect sources?” The CIA replied that five years would be sufficient. As a result of that round of negotiation, the criterion of the foreign assignment requirement for an employee to be a “covert agent” was drafted as follows:

[A] present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency…who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years outside the United States. 5 § 426 (4)(A).

In other words, the compromise language of “within five years” is intended to prohibit disclosure of the intelligence officer for five years for the purpose of protecting former sources, not protecting the person assigned back to this country.

So, what makes Victoria Toensing an authority on this particular topic?

INTELLIGENCE IDENTITIES PROTECTION ACT

In late 1981, when I became Chairman Barry Goldwater’s chief counsel for the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, my first assignment was to get the Intelligence Identities Protection Act passed. Chr. Goldwater was the ultimate manager, meaning that I was to come to him if there was a problem only he could resolve. Other than that situation, I was to negotiate whatever issues arose. Thus, I had hands-on everyday involvement with those for and against the bill.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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…………

Victoria is a right wing whore.

She's a nobody. What she thinks is irrelevant.

She isn't an elected official. Her proclaimations run counter to what the CIA, the Federal Prosecutor, the Federal Judge say and you think she has any credibility. She has none. Stop using her as your golden standard. She's a prostitutes standard.

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The sign of someone with no argument.

Demean the character of your opponent. This is a logical fallacy, BTW.

Were any of the people you mentioned first hand participants in the drafting of the legislation?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Who cares what Victoria Toensing says. How about you?

Do you have any of her notes from the time it was being passed? Writings on what she says it means now when she has motive to spin it really don't carry that much weight.

Really though, what is the point of this? Are you suggesting that leaking the identity of a CIA officer is A-OK? How's this, why don't you skip the legal debate which you aren't qualified to give and give your own opinion on the ethics of leaking her identity?

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My only point ...

is that Valerie Plame was NOT covert under the law, and I intend to keep correcting the record on that point.

As to her notes, I have provided a reference to her written testimony which include excerpts from a Senate report that I do not have nor do I need it. Her written statement is a summary thereof and it would be silly for her to falsify a record that it will be obviously easy for the Senate to corroborate.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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That is not your point

Woops, commented in the wrong thread before.

Your point is that Victoria Toensing says she was not covert under the IIPA. and that this is good enough for you.

Personally, I think someone who fought on D-Day actually 'served overseas' even if they didn't have a long term stationing there and that the plain reading of the law would imply that 'serving' overseas and being stationed overseas are different.

I'll just stick with the words of a former Republican President

"I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious of traitors.”

But you are entitled to your own opinion... if only we knew what it was...

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My opinion?

We are arguing a legal point, what different does it make what my opinion is?

Even so, I simply don't accept the fundamental premise that Valerie's name was even "leaked" in the sense that you all mean to imply it was.

The way her name got out there was no clear intent to "leak" anything. Armitage was gossiping and without thinking it slipped out. Simple as that. We all know this to be the case yet you people just won't let it go.

Should it have happened? No. Would things be better if it hadn't happened? Possibly. Was our intelligence gathering ability irrepairably damaged? Certainly not.

When do I think that it is "OK" for someone to intentionally and willfully disclose classified information? Never. But as we all know Armitage did not intend to "out" anyone nor did Fitzgerald turn up any evidence that anyone else had either. The simple fact of the matter is that a very extensive investigation failed to turn up any actionable evidence against anyone in the administration yet the lies and the slander continue unabated.

Why are we even talking about this anymore? Because I have to keep correcting the record IN RESPONSE to posts which simply want to continue the lies and the slander. I didn't bring this up again, someone up thread did. I wish you all would just drop the whole thing because it is patently clear that you are not going to get any administration heads on any pikes on this particular issue.

So my response is pretty set at this point. When I see the lie I will just correct the record. When people object I intend to just point them back to the past threads.

Personally, I think someone who fought on D-Day actually 'served overseas' even if they didn't have a long term stationing there and that the plain reading of the law would imply that 'serving' overseas and being stationed overseas are different.

And this is an absurd example which is factually flawed to boot. The men that fought on D-Day were stationed (and therefore served) overseas for months and/or years. That's a long term stay. You make it sound like we flew them in the night before and that they were home for supper the night after.

If you ask a serviceperson where they served, they will give you a list of the places that they have been stationed, not a list that includes every day trip they over took. I know you don't like that, but that's the truth.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Serving overseas

The men that fought on D-Day were stationed (and therefore served) overseas for months and/or years.

Um... I think there is a flaw in that logic

For one thing, if you ask a serviceperson where they served, they will also include the battles.

No, we aren't argueing a legal point. There is no legal opinion in the room that I'm aware of. We might as well argue medicine (unless you are a lawyer or a doctor?)

Our intelligence gathering capability wasn't damaged? Certainly not?!? Have you seen the damage report? If not, how would you know? Any damage would also almost certainly be classified.

As I've said before, I don't give a rat's patoot about the IIPA. There was so much crap going on concerning properly protecting classified information in this.

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RE: Serving overseas

For one thing, if you ask a serviceperson where they served, they will also include the battles.

Fair enough. I don't disagree. These battles, do they just sort of occur spontaneously over night with no advanced preparations or are the service people in question typically living and training in the region for prolonged periods both before and after the actual battle?

Even so, please provide a list of any major BATTLES, comparable to D-Day, that Valerie Plame was physically part of overseas in the past five years and I will evaluate your case...

No, we aren't argueing a legal point. There is no legal opinion in the room that I'm aware of. We might as well argue medicine (unless you are a lawyer or a doctor?)

I dare say that most of us aren't professional politicians either, but it seems we discuss a lot of politics here. Most of us aren't professional climatologists but we seem to discuss the merits or lack thereof of climatology science. Most of use are not creationists but we seem to have lots of discussion on the merits of creationism.

This is a silly comment. Whether I have a law degree or not I can certainly site the opinions of people who do, and Victoria Toensing clearly does in ADDITION to being a principle participant in the very negotiations concerning the law at hand.

Our intelligence gathering capability wasn't damaged? Certainly not?!? Have you seen the damage report? If not, how would you know? Any damage would also almost certainly be classified.

See, this is why you people are such disingenuous hacks. Do we have to, again, go down the path of discussing the English Language and the fact that WORDS HAVE MEANINGS?

My quote:

Was our intelligence gathering ability irreparably damaged? Certainly not.

Your deceitful rephrasing:

Our intelligence gathering capability wasn't damaged? Certainly not?!?

Of course I KNOW that you KNOW that words have meanings, which is why you purposely removed the critical one. Why would you do that? Would it be for a fine upstanding and honest motive? I think not.

As I've said before, I don't give a rat's patoot about the IIPA. There was so much crap going on concerning properly protecting classified information in this.

So, you don't give a rat's patoot about the law (IIPA). That's fine, you can care about whatever rat's patoots that you want. The topic of discussion in THIS thread is the LEGAL definition of covert agent and the legislative intent of the law.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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RE: Serving overseas

The men that fought on D-Day were stationed (and therefore served) overseas for months and/or years.

Um... I think there is a flaw in that logic

I am still scratching my head over this comment. How is a link to a list of casualty estimates refuting the assertion that men who fought on D-Day were stationed in theatre for months and/or years prior to the battle?

Are you suggesting that the men who fought on D-Day were actually living in the United States the whole time and just commuted to Europe on a daily basis or arrived there a day or two before the operation began? This would have been an interesting accomplishment given the state of aviation and naval capabilities at the time.

Do you deny that the men who fought on D-Day were living outside the United States for prolonged periods of time in theatre?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Why do you dispute The CIA Director

Michael Hayden now?

When you have been so willing to give the CIA full authority on claims on other matters?

this will be a bitter pill for some conservatives to swallow. CIA Director Michael Hayden personally reviewed and okayed Henry Waxman's opening statement for Valerie Plame's testimony today. Furthermore, Hayden took pains to set the record straight: Plame was indeed a covert agent up until the day Robert Novak revealed as much to the public.

Hayden's Review that Verifies Plame was Covert

………… parent

Who's disputing him?

I have already admitted that the CIA calls her covert by their definition of covert. The dispute is whether that definition coincides with the definition and legislative intent in the law, which are the controlling factors.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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It seems to me

That we can discuss this fine point of law till we beat it to death and it still won't mater a bit until a court decides either way.

Sic semper tyrannis

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I absolutely agree.

You all are free to keep claiming that Plame was covert, if you want, but I am likewise free to keep correcting the record as I see it. Fair enough (or do you somehow require that I let you call her covert but need to keep my mouth shut)?

[ This is directed more generally at those who want to call her covert than specifically at you, woodsman. ]

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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I'd be willing

to settle for now that there is a difference of opinion as to her legal status.

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

I am fine with this.

But if others wish to keep expressing their opinions, I will do likewise.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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That's very generous of you

considering Federal District Court Judge Walton , Federal Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald and CIA director General Hayden have all testified and affirmed in a Federal Court that Mz. Plame was indeed covert.

So thank you very much but this is a boolean question. The answer is either yes or no, black or white....there are no grays here. I appreciate your efforts to be diplomatic, but cutting the difference isn't possible on this question.

The fact that the disclosure also forced the closure of Brewster Jennings by the CIA....was that covert? Or was that just a registered side business of the CIA to try to cover expenses.

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RE: That's very generous of you

Well, apparently they were mistaken.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Again

Hayden clearly stated she was a covered agent.

Are you calling the Director of the CIA a liar?

You can call the Sun the Moon as far as I am concerned, but that doesn't make you right.

The more you claim fiction as fact the more you damage your own credibility. No one is telling you to shut up just that you are misguided.

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Not lying, mistaken ...

incorrect, wrong, outside of the true facts, pick your favorite term(s).

Personally, I hold the standard of the term liar to mean direct intent to deceive. I have no reason to believe that the CIA Director has any such intent.

However, if we want to use the definition of "lie" that is utilized by --> MOST <-- liberals when discussing Bush "lying" about the pre-war intelligence ... well then I guess he is lying (by THAT standard).

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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More on serving overseas

The ones that were never 'stationed' in France because they trained in Britain and were part of the beach landing served on the beaches of Normandy even if they were never stationed there.

The ones who were aboard ships in the war in the Pacific and and whose official station was on board the ship throughout the war still 'served' at Iwo Jima even if their official address remained a ship address.

The reason I didn't quote 'irreperable' is because depending on your definition, all Humint losses are irreperable (you can't get sources back once their lost) or no damage is irreperable.

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RE: Serving overseas

In thinking about this a bit more, don't you think that equating Valerie Plame taking a faux business trip with participation in D-Day just a little dismissive of the contribution of those who fought there? I am not trying to diminish the value of Plame's service, but I do think that this comparison has the effect of diminishing the service of the D-Day veterans.

Even so, this raises an interesting question in my mind (which is completely separate and apart from the legal issue), but just to follow your line a reasoning to it's logical conclusion what would you say is the minimum level of time and participation in a specific area that should be required to claim that you were "serving" there? [ Toensing is obviously claiming that the line was drawn at having had a permanent residence set up, or in other words you resided there. ]

A year? A month? A week? A day? A few hours?

Do you actually have to have performed some significant activity there or merely passed through? So, does a layover in a German airport while en route to Iraq count as having "served" in Germany on its face?

Do you have to have actually touched the ground there or is traveling through the airspace of some country sufficient? So, for instance, sitting in first class sipping a cool drink while traveling over, say, Libya qualifies as having served there and is, essentially, equivalent to having served on D-Day? This is obviously an extreme example but just where would YOU set the threshold?

DISCLAIMER: Again, we are NOW discussing our own hypotheticals which have absolutely NO bearing on the actual legal definitions and legislative intent ... just to be clear.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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The way I see it now -

the law itself is seriously flawed.

Sic semper tyrannis

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How long is service

If she was ever in jeopardy of being arrested for spying or espionage, then I would consider it service.

So flying through airspace or being on layover would not count, but meeting with or recruiting a foreign agent would.

Essentially the same as serving in the front lines on D-Day? Probably not from a karmic perspective considering the casualty rates, but the ship board officers who went in after the battle still risked getting sniped (even if few did) and while their risks were far less than the invasionary forces, I would never say that they didn't serve.

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Actually, I'm sort of done with this.

I have provided testimony from a principle participant in the drafting of the legislation who has provided her first hand account of the events and the legislative intent. You don't like that, fine.

Where's your contravening evidence? Why hasn't Waxman corrected the record on this point as he said he was going to do at the end of the hearing where Toensing testified? If he did, then show me. If Toensing lied why isn't Waxman pursuing some sort of charges or at least holding press conferences and making lots of noise?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Robert Novak

Who wrote the article that outed Plame but was somehow absolved of responsibility and criminality in the matter ( according to Toensing position he didn't knowlingly know, or was he given immunity ) will be interviewed on CSpan Sunday night. He will be discussing the sources for his stories over his long career.

He has a new book out and will also be discussing it on CSpans book TV, which takes calls form viewers.

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Well and good, but what force of law

do the non-legal opinions of law drafters have when determining the meaning of plain English? We sometimes cite the Federalist papers or the private letters of the founding fathers for guidance in ambiguous passages, but if what they meant isn't in the language, than it isn't in the language.

the compromise language of “within five years” is intended to prohibit disclosure of the intelligence officer for five years for the purpose of protecting former sources, not protecting the person assigned back to this country.

Unfortunately for Toensing, none of that is in the language. So either she's being dishonest about the "true" meaning of the statute, or she's the least competent law drafter in history. The statute says absolutely nothing about who the granting of covert status is "really" intended to protect, only that it's granted to

[A] present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency…who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years outside the United States. 5 § 426 (4)(A).

The CIA is correct about Plame's status as the statute is written. Are we supposed to call up Toensing re: every other statute, just to ask, "Look, we know what the words mean in plain English, but we also need to know what your personal intentions were"? If so, next time I'm pulled over for a speeding ticket, I refuse to pay until they track down the person who drafted the specific lines about speeding violations, just to make sure that they're enforcing it according to the intentions of the author.

You see why this is no way to run a legal system, right?

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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RE: Well and good, but what force of law

You may not like it, but on controversial topics if there is a record of the legislative intent the courts will take that into account when deciding cases. Two of her passages were obviously quotes from some Senate report so there WILL be a record of the negotiations someplace as well as previous versions of the legislation.

I can only assume that these will corroborate her account provided here, and like it or not this account is consistent with the view that the legislation was intended to apply to operatives living overseas (whether they be employees or ordinary citizens).

The CIA is correct about Plame's status as the statute is written.

You can throw as many tantrums as you like, I still don't agree and thus far the first hand evidence is on my side.

Unfortunately for Toensing, none of that is in the language. So either she's being dishonest about the "true" meaning of the statute, or she's the least competent law drafter in history.

No one said that Toensing wrote the entire text by herself. It was a collaborative effort which came out of a negotiation between the affected and interested parties. This is not necessarily her text, but her testimony clearly addresses the issue of legislative intent from the perspective of a primary and first hand observer of the drafting process. As such, it is clearly relevant.

Oh, and if you actually READ the text I provided you will see that she was the "chief counsel for the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence". That's hardly a "non-legal opinion."

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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I erased my reply and put up a challenge instead:

Let's take a CIA agent who's pretending to be an international businessman. He travels to Moscow for the week, where he pretends to conduct his business while actually doing reconnaissance work.

While that agent is in Moscow, is his status covert? Would it be against the law to disclose that this businessman is really a CIA agent?

It'd be borderline treason, that's for sure. But in your mind, is that businessman a covert CIA agent?

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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It doesn't matter what I think.

What matters is the legislative intent.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Victoria Toensing has nothing to do with legislative intent

Legally, you need to look into the congressional debate record. The writer's intent (or rather her current statements of what here intent was) really don't have legal bearing.

Or is there a court case you are aware of that says differently.

I wasn't asking you what you though of the law. I was asking you what you thought of the ethics. Come on GR, I answer you when you ask my opinion on the NSA leaks. I want your opinion on the ethics of the actions. No more "So and so says it isn't technically a violation of statute X" or "People leak all the time!!!" Stand up and say when you think it is OK to leak classified information.

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RE: Victoria Toensing has nothing to do with legislative intent

Actually, Victoria Toensing is a material witness who can testify as to the legislative intent based on her first hand experience in the negotiations.  Can any of your sources make such a claim regarding the issue of legislative intent?

Even so, I doubt that they would need to rely solely on her testimony.  The wikipedia page on legislative intent provides a nice list of the types of materials that would be applicable.  I have no doubt that there are records of the original negotiations, early drafts of the legislation, Senate reports like the one Toensing is obviously quoting from.  The fact that I don't have access to these things does not mean that they don't exist, AND it is not unreasonable to expect that they DO exist.

So it would be silly for Toensing to expect that she could get away with such a fabrication as this if the records were going to clearly refute her position, and it is not like she doesn't know what those records will say, is it?

Even so, given that Bush has already given you what you want ... an admission that "someone" in the administration "likely" leaked her name, why are you still carping on about this?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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You're pulling that from the butts of the townhall folks.

Victoria T was hired as Chief Counsel to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, where she helped draft the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982. She was just a paid lawyer. Legally, only elected representatives statements are admitted for legal consideration by Judges later.

Of course if you want to CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION, by all means, try. But your pipe dream of wanting Victoria to have standing has no legal foundation.

You really are ridiculous repeating this stuff.

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RE: You're pulling that from the butts of the townhall folks.

Two points:

(1) She was the Chief Counsel to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and reported directly to Chairman Barry Goldwater. In this context he had delegated the task of running the negotiations to her and, as such, she was essentially operating as an extension of him. Her authority in the matter flowed directly from Barry Goldwater.

(2) I am not claiming that she has standing in her own right, actually. I am only claiming that she is qualified to speak to the matter of legislative intent, which she is. The issue will certainly come down to appropriate documentation from the negotiations at the time, and as the wikipedia article highlights a wide variety of materials are applicable. Legally, her opinion doesn't matter simply because its her opinion, her opinion matters in this case because it reflects the legislative intent in the negotiations which can, presumably, be backed using appropriate documentation from the negotiations. She clearly should be familiar with what that documentation will say.

So, if this matter ever goes to court, who do you have to refute this interpretation of the legislative intent and what qualifies them as an authority thereof? I seem to ask that question a lot but I don't ever seem to get a response. Why is that?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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It doesn't matter what you think.

Excellent, can I quote you on this some time? :)

Actually, it doesn't matter what you or I think, but no more or less than our opinions on any other legal issues that we blog about: we're low-level peons with opinions is all. But I AM interested in what you think about it, because I see this as the crux of Toensing's attempt to slide the definition over.

As per Toensing, our current undercover CIA operatives who are doing recon work overseas are not covered by law: in fact, you could out their identities with impunity since they are not "serving" in the sense that she says she meant it. Somehow I don't think this interpretation is either tenable or sane, given the kind of damage someone could do with it.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Predictable.

I actually DID assume that you would pick up on that! :)

Actually, it doesn't matter what you or I think, but no more or less than our opinions on any other legal issues that we blog about: we're low-level peons with opinions is all. But I AM interested in what you think about it, because I see this as the crux of Toensing's attempt to slide the definition over.

You are, of course, assuming that she is trying to slide the definition at all. That's a rather loaded premise that I haven't seen anything to back up. I certainly understand your ideological inclinations to assume that she is, but that is not proof or even evidence.

Even if I give you my opinion on your hypothetical it won't change anything. We are talking about the intent that was put into the law at the time it was written. The best available information about what that intent actually was is being provided by Toensing. I don't have any other sources on this topic. If you have anything that goes directly to legislative intent, which Toensing's account clearly does, I would be very happy to discuss it futher. Until then, Toensing's testimony seems to be the definitive (albeit only) word on the topic to date.

I do find it suspicious that if the official records contradict her account of the matter, that the Democrats haven't simply come out and provided the proof. They must have access to the records in question and I am sure that they aren't just sitting on their hands in this case, don't you think? Is this conclusive? No, but still noteworthy at this point in time.

As per Toensing, our current undercover CIA operatives who are doing recon work overseas are not covered by law: in fact, you could out their identities with impunity since they are not "serving" in the sense that she says she meant it. Somehow I don't think this interpretation is either tenable or sane, given the kind of damage someone could do with it.

This goes to the determination of whether the law and the original intent were the proper things to do or not. While that is certainly an appropriate question in the big picture, it won't alter the facts regarding what that original intent was. Even if that intent was somehow misguided, it was what it was at the time.

If it's broke, then by all means let's fix it. But we are fundamentally discussing what that intent WAS rather than what it SHOULD BE in this thread. Correct?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Ron Paul Suggests Possibility of Staged Attacks

In light of Chertoffs latest comments, etc. and as a little boost for Bush.

Stage Attacks Possible

Rep. Ron Paul, said the country is in "great danger" of the U.S. government staging a terrorist attack or a Gulf of Tonkin style provocation, as the war in Iraq continues to deteriorate. [....]"The attack on our civil liberties here at home, the foreign policy that's in shambles and our obligations overseas and commitment which endangers our troops and our national defense." [....]Paul said the government was conducting "an orchestrated effort to blame the Iranians for everything that has gone wrong in Iraq."

Is he being realistic or just off the wall?

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I hope he's off the wall....

....but with the regime we currently have in place, anything is possible.

...and it is a sad state of affairs that I'm willing to believe this...even a little bit.

That's how bad this President has been.

LBJ did it.... Why would we think that it is beyond Cheney/Bush?

I survived the Bush Administration

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