How to Make Impeachment Viable? Bipartisanship.

A fun discussion for the weekend even if it is unlikely. Promoted by Specter

(Originally posted, in slightly modified form, at DailyKos)

Bipartisan Impeachment?!

It sounds ludicrous, doesn’t it? But this crackpot idea is so crazy, it might just work.

THE IMPETUS

Bush threatens our republic’s existence. This isn’t alarmism—his continuation in office has consequences: a catastrophic war with Iran, a fiscal trainwreck, irreparable erosion of cherished liberties in the wake of another terrorist atrocity comparable to 9/11, or some combination, are possible; deepening entanglement in Iraq, mulish stagnation on national priorities, and chronic abuses of power are expected; needless Iraqi and American deaths are certain. Worse yet, our country will endure the pernicious ramifications of his reign for decades after he vacates the White House.

I could inveigh endlessly against the incompetence, deception, and lawlessness of BushCo’s tenure, but most people closely following these issues have already coalesced around the urgency of impeachment. Now, proponents need to convince others whose lives don’t orbit politics.

Greater media exposure (such as Bill Moyer's Impeachment Special ) will deepen support, but it must also be broadened; an overwhelming majority—the sort necessary for success—cannot be amassed if impeachment is perceived as a political weapon rather than the final tool of constitutional accountability. By impeaching and removing, we establish precedent, but only with solid popular undergirding will the beacon endure for our successors’ travails.

There is one way to do this: bring Republicans on board.

THE METHOD

“We don’t have the votes” is the favorite rejoinder of impeachment realists. Its popularity stems from veracity: both fourthbranch and chimpy need to go, but that means a Pelosi presidency. Republicans will never, EVER sign off on this.

I abhor their ends, but can’t blame them.

Bush’s removal would complete the GOP’s fall from power; by endorsing it they’d simultaneously legitimate our grievances and abdicate their last defensive line against a popular Democratic agenda, thereby cementing their irrelevancy.

Political suicide, in other words.

Facile analysis would seem to close the door definitively, then, but it overlooks a critical reality: Bush is a radioactive albatross that portends electoral massacre, and they know it. They need a way to jettison him, but retain power.

There is such a way.

The Constitution does not require that the Speaker of the House be third in line, rather, that's a provision of the Presidential Succession Act of 1947 . Congress could simply alter the process for instances when the vice-presidency is vacant, providing for election by both houses. After enactment of the law, Cheney would be removed, followed by Bush. A "caretaker president", publicly committed to not pardoning any BushCo officials, and having foresworn a 2008 campaign, would then be chosen.

Alternatively, the House could impeach both Cheney and Bush, elect the decider’s successor as temporary Speaker—there's no constitutional requirement that he even be a member of Congress—then, and only then, the Senate would convict.

The key similarity of each route is that it cuts Bush, who cannot be expected to facilitate his own removal, completely out of the loop.

As importantly, in both cases the “caretaker president” must be a moderate Republican—maybe an “elder statesman”—for two principal reasons: Democrats would be insulated from charges that impeachment was a naked power grab (or petty payback for Clinton), and Republicans would not lose the executive without an election. Though there’s no strict parliamentary analogue, this would be similar to a no-confidence vote, followed by formation of a national unity government.

THE PAYOFF

When I say bipartisan, I mean it; my proposal demands concessions from both parties, but benefits each.

The Republicans would get to shed their millstone, gaining a precious opportunity to show their constituencies that loyalty to the republic trumps loyalty to party and power, preserving some legacy other than enabling the worst president ever. Bush would, to a large extent, be neutralized as a 2008 election issue, rehabilitating the party (especially if the "caretaker" does a decent job).

Democrats, on the other hand, would dispel their image as practitioners of a particularly spineless political calculus, and fulfill the popular mandate of November 7th.

With a new administration not entrapped by increasingly desperate attempts to save face, we might begin to fashion an exit strategy for Iraq.

Having reasserted the principle of equality before the law, and punished the malfeasances of an utterly contemptible buffoon, the U.S.’s worldwide reputation would regain much luster. This is no small thing if we are genuinely interested in thwarting terrorism.

Moreover, Congress would have rediscovered its long dormant prerogatives, potentially reversing a dangerous accretion of executive power that spanned the 20th century; checks and balances would no longer be an empty slogan, and we’d all be better off for it.

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Though I've made several lengthy comments...

...this is my first actual diary here. Let's see how it goes. =)

"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell

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Sounds great...

...but will never happen.

It's a nice exercise on your part, and I commend you on your effort - it is really well thought out, but you know this will never occur.

Such a process would take so long to coordinate and gather support, that Bush's term will be nearly over before it could even come to fruition.

There's only 18 months left. Nature will run its course.

No matter how much we clamor for it, impeachment simply isn't going to happen.

Electorally... it might be better (for Democrats) for Bush to be left twisting in the wind as an unpopular president anyway. The people, angry and starving for his removal, will come to the polls in droves.

If Bush is removed... the anger of the populace will be dissipated.

Do not underestimate the power of an angry populace.

“Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” --- Albert Einstein

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It’s unlikely, to be sure...

...but I wouldn’t say never, for the very reasons you cite:

Do not underestimate the power of an angry populace. […] If Bush is removed... the anger of the populace will be dissipated.

As I argue in the diary, Republicans would be politically insane to hand over the presidency to Democrats. At the same time, they’d be insane not to take an option that lets them keep the presidency while publicly throwing Bush under the bus.

Bush remaining in office helps Democrats’ considerably from the standpoint of political power. Absent impeachment, it may take several cycles for Republicans to regain enough credibility to become a governing party at the national level. I’m more interested in restoring the rule of law and dismantling the unitary executive than shadenfreude at their expense, however, regardless of how much they deserve a long purgatory in the opposition.

If we start considering political advantage, then impeachment runs the risk of becoming a political weapon. It doesn’t matter if his term is shortened by a year, a month, or a day, the reason to go forward is precedent: unchecked executive license and impunity will not be tolerated--irrespective of the party holding the presidency.

"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell

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Impeachment resolves a constitutional crises

According to Bruce Fein.

It is the economy, stupid.

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What is this "contitutional crisis" of which you speak? n/t

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Which one do you want to talk about?

1) Spying on Americans without warrants?
2) politicizing the Department of Justice?
3) Darth Cheney's 4th branch of government?
4) Having the Attorney General lie repeatedly to Congress?
5) Lying to the American people to attack and occupy a country that didn't threaten us?
6) Directing underlings & former underlings to defy Congressional Subpoenas?
7) Puting the US Military in jeopardy?
8) Torture?
9) Jailing legal citizens without charge?
10 Restricting habeas corpus in defiance of the Constitution?

There's a whole boatload more.

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RE: Which one do you want to talk about?

Bah. None of these threatens our system of government.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Bah! is what O'Reilly says when you nail him. Congratulations!

The Democrats would settle for resolution of the crisis. The Republicans would settle for losing the stinking albatross. It would be like the referee moving the clinched and stalemated ultimate fighters off the floor and onto their feet and then waving them back together.

We'd get rid of Bush, and Cheney, and maybe even get issue politics back.

Good call, Autarkh.

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The Fourth Branch of Govt

The one that ignores the laws set forth in the constitution. Some call it the Cheney branch. They are using the White House as a base of operations.

It is the economy, stupid.

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RE: The Fourth Branch of Govt

Nobody is claiming a fourth branch of government. This is a strawman meme contrived primarily by you, I think.

No one is ignoring the laws set forth in the constitution, as has been affirmed by all of the court cases which have been decided to date. [ I am refereing to the ones that apply to the Bush Administration on THESE topics, just to keep things specific. ]

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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The defiance of congressional subpoena?

To argue that someone doesn't even need to show up? I'm just imagining what would happen if a lawyer claimed attorney client privelege but didn't even both to show to the hearing.

Executive privilege extending to RNC emails? (Which, by law cannot be for offiicial business)

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RE: The defiance of congressional subpoena?

Already got it covered.  This should do fine.

It's not a constitutional crisis if it has been done before and our government still stands.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Crises can be averted

Just because the government stands doesn't mean that there wasn't a crisis.
The one that you cited was averted via negotiations. Do you think a crisis can exist absent armed conflict?

I'd argue that if congress finds Feilding and/or Miers in contempt and the USAs refuse to prosecute than the crisis is then escalated. The crisis is that Congress may just let them run out the clock.

Putting an end to such crises is what inherent contempt and impeachment are for.

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RE: Crises can be averted

Humbug. I refuse to believe that if Harriet Meiers doesn't show up at the Congressional Hearing that somehow our entire system of government is going to disintegrate before our very eyes.

Putting an end to such crises is what inherent contempt and impeachment are for.

And here I was thinking that was what the 2-term limit for Presidents was for...

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Control of the Justice Department

Evaluating if USA's were fired because they didn't prosecute those in the opposing party is moderately important (I know you take it on faith that no executive would EVER do that and we should take their word for it)

Oddly, the idea that a President would lie about his sex life WAS considered a major constitutional issue that demanded impeachment.

And here I was thinking that was what the 2-term limit for Presidents was for...

Yet strangely Impeachment and Inherent Contempt both predate term limits. Actually, one has to wonder why they put it impeachment in the constitution in the first place. After all, eventually there would be an election and any serious crimes would still be within the statute of limitations, so why have it at all?

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RE: Control of the Justice Department

Evaluating if USA's were fired because they didn't prosecute those in the opposing party is moderately important (I know you take it on faith that no executive would EVER do that and we should take their word for it)

Actually I agree with this. If those USA's were refusing to prosecute Democrats one has to wonder why. In my book, refusing to proescute crimes for political reasons should be grounds for firing them.

Oddly, the idea that a President would lie about his sex life WAS considered a major constitutional issue that demanded impeachment.

Actually, it was that whole perjury and obstruction of justice thing that really got him in hot water ... kind of like Libby. I see to remember something about being disbarred for that...

Yet strangely Impeachment and Inherent Contempt both predate term limits.

This is correct. Your point would be?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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GR's Wacky world

Perhaps they didn't prosecute the crimes because there was no evidence? Oh what's the use. Your entire moniker depends on defending Bush and bashing those to your left.

In your world Ann Coulter is reasonable, Dick Cheney's a nice guy, and the only reason career Republicans would refuse to prosecute Democratic politicians is that they are undercover Democrats trying to cover for their own.

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OH please.....

....... what is this flaming strawman fondue. He dips his rhetoric into a hot oil slick and claims that the government is not going to disintegrate before our eyes.

Ack. Ack. Isn't that a pretty ridiculous thing to say. What would it take for the govt to disappear before our eyes...... hmmmm??

The issue is how our government (which will not disappear) is being run, in blatant defiance of constitutional checks and balances.

Sweet Harriet ignores a Congressional suponea....... as if she doesn't have to follow the law!

These folks claim executive privelege when it is not within their legal bounds as if there is a fourth branch of govt that doesn't have to answer to the people or the constitution. It is setting a precedent for a return to the monarchy.

The rulers have decreed that there is no law by which they are bound...... they use the excuse the pleasure of the President, executive privelege and invoke national security a little too often and a little too easily.

You think this is just hunky dory?

It is the economy, stupid.

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Actually, I think it is all hogwash. n/t

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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PS

I'm still waiting for some court cases which hold that the Bush Administration ignored the constitution.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Hamdan V Rumsfeld n/t

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And where in there does it state

that Bush ignored the constitution?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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He claimed authority which was not granted to him

According to the court, the president was attempting to exercise authority not granted to him, but instead to the legislature. Ergo, he was ignoring the Constitutional separation of powers doctrine.

Whenever the Supreme Court rules against a president, it is stating, by definition, that he is ignoring the law or ignoring the Constitution. Now if you want to say it was from ignorance it that's fine (as if it is done knowingly, it would be defying the Constitution

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No, I mean ...

point me to where the courts decision actually even discusses a point of constitutionality in the case. I see lots of verbiage related to the UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions but nothing where there seems to have been a point related to ignoring or violating the constitution.

Here is the text: http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/05pdf/05-184.pdf

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Why should I have to do that?

To argue that he is ignoring the constitution, one doesn't have to cite Supreme Court decisions that use those exact words.

One can argue that without bringing SCOTUS into it, for example, the court that stated that the wiretapping without a warrant was unconstitutional was overturned on standing grounds, not on the merits, so the highest court that has currently ruled HAS stated that it is unconstitutional.

Likewise, whenever the court states that the power to do X resides with the legislature and not with the executive, they are saying that the Constitution says so.

If you want specific statements about violating the constitution, Hamdi would proably a bit more on point, but since MissL stated that he was ignoring the constitution and not "SCOTUS says he is violating the constitution" that isn't really necessary. Now if you think holding US Citizens without a trial is constitutional, heck, argue away. Bush has done it for years and still says that he can if he wants to.

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RE: Why should I have to do that?

ME: I'm still waiting for some court cases which hold that the Bush Administration ignored the constitution.
YOU: Hamdan V Rumsfeld
ME: And where in there does it state that Bush ignored the constitution?
YOU: According to the court, the president was attempting to exercise authority not granted to him ...
ME: No, I mean point me to where the courts decision actually even discusses a point of constitutionality ...
YOU: Why should I have to do that?

 
Seems kind of obvious to me, actually.

I asked for court cases which have a finding that Bush has violated or ignored the Constitution. You replied with Hamden V. Rumsfeld. When I went there to see what was up I couldn't find anything where they claimed that Bush had violated or ignored the Constitution.

Violating the UCMJ and/or the Geneva Conventions is NOT the same thing as violating the Constitution, correct? [ And I don't want to chase some rabbit down the but their bad too hole. The point is she claimed that Bush has violated [all of] the Constitution, so we are arguing a very narrow point here. ]

So, if the court held that Bush has violated the Constitution in Hamden V Rumsfeld (which is what you responded to) I am asking you to show me where the court ACTUALLY SAID that.

Again, words have meanings. Why are liberals so against that concept. So if they SAID what you claimed then SHOW ME where.

Why focus on court cases? Because anything less than a court ruling is just us blowing in the wind. I want definitive evidence on this point or I consider it a strawman. My level of proof is settled court decisions. Is that unfair?

I am not demanding SCOTUS cases, you just provided one. I want examples of cases in whatever the latest stage of appeals they have progressed to.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Then I've succeeded

The highest ruling on the merits was that Bush was ignoring the consitution.
A higher court said "maybe, but we aren't going to rule on that and instead talk about standing"

And no, if the administration claims article II powers and SCOTUS replies by saying that the administration must instead obey Article I legislation, then they are ruling on Constitutional issues. ONLY if the court rules purely on statutary interpretation grounds can you argue that it wasn't about claiming powers outside of the constitution.

If you want to be a purist, then I'll switch to Hamdi instead where the court ruled that the manner in which Hamdi was being held (and that Bush claimed authority to hold him) violated his due process rights as guaranteed by the, get this.. Constitution

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In actuality, I don't care.

My question was to missliberties to have her back up her claim. In reality, she is only a pawn in my argument with Specter on the whole inductive logic crusade he is on.

But, if you can point out where the court cases have actually ruled explicitly on Bush having violated the Constitution, rather than you infering that connection, then I will be happy to review it.

I reject your verbal slight of hand with the "merits" above. I am interested in cases where the courts have directly and unambiguously ruled against Bush on the issue of Consitutional Violations and where the highest level of appeal thus far has upheld the case as being valid.

BTW, missliberties claims that Bush has violated ALL of the Constitution. So, your task is actually to show me court cases which demonstrate that Bush has violated every conceivable aspect of the Constitution, not just one here and there ... assuming that your goal is to support her original statement.

What, exactly, IS your goal in this thread?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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You continually misrepresent

what I said. In other words you are lying. For this to be clear just re-read the posts here.

I never said Bush has violated ALL of the Constitution.

Here you are I believe using bad inductive logic yet again.

Can you please site that specific phrase, those exact words in that exact order, anywhere on this thread as a quote by me?

The words are 'Bush has violated ALL of the constitution.'

You keep claiming I said this. I did not.

Your task is to stop putting words in my mouth that aren't there.

It is the economy, stupid.

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RE: You continually misrepresent

You continually misrepresent what I said. In other words you are lying. For this to be clear just re-read the posts here.

Well then. I am not misrepresenting YOUR posts any more than --> MANY <-- liberals have been misrepresenting MY posts (and possibly with you included). If you don't like their logic I suggest that you take it up with them. *

I never said Bush has violated ALL of the Constitution.

...

Can you please site that specific phrase, those exact words in that exact order, anywhere on this thread as a quote by me?

The words are 'Bush has violated ALL of the constitution.'

You keep claiming I said this. I did not.

Your original statement was:

Bush seems to think there is a fourth branch. His government he calls it. The one that ignores constitutional law.

So, collapsing all of the Bush --> his government --> one in the last statement we have your actual statement: "The Bush government ignores constitutional law." This is the clear meaning of your full text.

Now, since you did NOT include the qualifier "some" in front of "constitutional law" the standing interpretation of that statement on this site is equivalent to: "The Bush government ignores [ALL] constitutional law." This has been deemed the fair and appropriate way to interpret these types of statements on this site.

I obviously don't agree with that interpretation personally (since I have argued against it elsewhere), but until the prevailing interpretation of these types of statements by --> MOST <-- liberals on this site is adjusted to be more in line with the correct logical reading of the text my hands are tied. To be fair to all we must adopt this interpretation.

So, even though you didn't MEAN to say "ALL constitutional law", by NOT qualifying your statement that is, according to the interpretation employed by --> MOST <-- liberals on this site, what you DID say.

Here you are I believe using bad inductive logic yet again.

With all due respect, you don't have the foggiest idea what inductive logic is.

------------------------------------
* As we all know Specter has been on a crusade to claim that I somehow use bad inductive logic and there have been two extensive threads arguing the point. I have presented logically correct analysis to support my position yet he persists. So I have decided to adopt his interpretation and logic and to incorporate it into my own commentary.

The most recent thread began here , to which I provided a clear and concise description of the fallacy of his claim. Brendan then objected here , and Specter agreed with Brendan's point here and here .

The thrust of these comments was, essentially, that unless you explicitly qualify a statement such as "the liberal bloggers do X" with the word "some" that the meaning of that statement is equivalent to "ALL liberal bloggers to X."

Since it is considered reasonable for them to apply this interpretation to MY posts, it is likewise reasonable for me to apply this interpretation to the posts of others such as yours.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Brendan and Specter ...

Am I misapplying the logic and interpretation of the statement:

"The Bush government ignores constitutional law"

based on your previous comments to me here, here, and here.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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I think so, yes

Note the parallel:

(1) Liberal bloggers go after people they don't agree with.
(2) The Bush govt ignores consitutional law.

In (1), my (and Specter's) contention is that "Liberal bloggers" ought to be prefaced with "some" -- but note that we don't object to "people" and we don't insist it should be "some people they don't agree with" because it's clear in context we're discussing a subgroup.*

In (2), the parallel claim would be that "The Bush government" should be "some of the Bush government" except that government is already singular (a collective noun) so that doesn't make sense. But "consitutional law" as "some constitutional laws" doesn't seem necessary to me, as with "people" I think it's implied in context. YMMV and maybe I'm twisting this to avoid agreeing with you ;-) but that's my initial take anyway.

Ask purpleface what she thinks, she took your side in that discussion...

*If your intent was to suggest that "[some] liberal bloggers go after [all] people they don't agree with" then I agree that this is a parallel case, but I now question even more strongly the omission of the qualifier since it's different (some/all) applied to the different groups, and IMHO difficult to intuit your meaning from context.

Edit: to expand and perhaps clarify, consider my example: "Republicans murder gays and blacks." The (IMO) intuitive way to read that is "[all] Republicans murder [some] gays and blacks" -- clearly it doesn't make sense for each Republican to murder all gays and blacks. If I understand your argument here correctly, you'd read that sentence as "[some] Republicans murder [all] gays and blacks" -- sorry, I just don't interpret it that way naturally.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Sigh.

In (2), the parallel claim would be that "The Bush government" should be "some of the Bush government" except that government is already singular (a collective noun) so that doesn't make sense. But "consitutional law" as "some constitutional laws" doesn't seem necessary to me, as with "people" I think it's implied in context. YMMV and maybe I'm twisting this to avoid agreeing with you ;-) but that's my initial take anyway.

That is NOT the question at hand.

Is the statement, "Bush ignores constitutional law." semantically equivalent to "Bush ignores ALL constitutional law" or "Bush ignores SOME constitutional law."

The point that you both made in the quotes that I provided were dealing with the semantics of leaving off the word "some". Your position in the previous comments was CLEARLY that by not including "SOME" I was implying "ALL".

The "group" in this case is the "group" of constitutional provisions affected, NOT the "group" of people affected, by the inclusion or exclusion of the word "some".

So, again, using the same logic that you applied in the previous case (for groups of people, i.e. liberal bloggers) am I now mischaracterizing your logic as it is applied to the current case (for groups of constitutional provisions, i.e. articles, clauses, amendments or whatever).

Is it now your contention that this SOME/ALL rule only applies to groups of people? It shoud logically apply to groups of anything, should it not?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Yes, you're mischaracterizing my logic

in that your parallel... isn't. As I tried to explain, but perhaps not very clearly. The second group in each sentence I give above is (to me, anyway) defined in context as "some" -- again, I'm willing to consider that might not make sense and I'm interpreting it that way to match my bias, which is why I suggested you ask purpleface. That's how I see it, though.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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You people are exasperating.

OK then, let me pull out a bit of Specter logic to include here and tell me why it does not apply either then.

When I gave my Group A, B, and C logic example to demontrate tha fallacy of your logic (which is correct just for the record), Specter complained that since I had not identified any explicit subgroups (of liberal bloggers) that I had implied ALL (liberal bloggers).

Since, in the context of her original statement, she did NOT identify any specific subsets of constitutional law to which her her statement applied, why then are you saying that the existence of those subsets is implied by her statement?

Using only her original statement:

Bush seems to think there is a fourth branch. His government he calls it. The one that ignores constitutional law.

exactly what subsets of constitutional law are you appealing to when you claim that "some" is implied here by context?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Does this mean

you fold on the Group A, B, and C example?

As GR says, 95% joking. I'll try to give an honest assessment tonight when I have more time.

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No, let me clarify.

When I gave my Group A, B, and C logic example to demontrate tha fallacy of your logic (which is correct just for the record), Specter complained that since I had not identified any explicit subgroups (of liberal bloggers) that I had implied ALL (liberal bloggers).

Poorly worded. My intent was to assert that my A, B, C example accurately demonstrated tha fallacy of your logic.

My efforts to use mislsiberties statement are likewise showing the fallacy thereof because you are all changing what you said.

It is difficult to play the game when you all keep changing the rules to fit you case of the day. If this is how we are going to be interacting I am not sure that I wish to continue because you are being inherently dishonest.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

RE: Yes, you're mischaracterizing my logic

The second group in each sentence I give above is (to me, anyway) defined in context as "some"

This actually is suggesting that the use of the word "some" in front of a group reference is somehow positionally dependent. Why should the use of the word "some" in front of the "first" group be any different that the use of the word "some" in front of any other groups in the sentences?

So, what exactly is the rule that you claim to be using in the previous thread? I took it to be:

"When referencing a group in a sentence an unqualified reference (i.e. one that does not include some, all, many, most or anything similar) is taken to mean ALL by default."

Is this not what you meant?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

I don't do grammar

so I don't know what the technical rule is, but yes I think it's positionally dependent. In plain English:

If it is intuitively and commonly interpreted as all without a qualifier than a qualifier should be added so nobody misunderstands. If it is intuitively and commonly interpreted as some then no qualifier is required, although it could still be added for clarity.

Obviously that's a very subjective rule but OTOH I don't think it's really controversial in most cases unless people are looking to pick nits.

You do see the distinction between the subject and object in "Republicans murder gays", right? Would you read that as all gays? Maybe I'm missing something...

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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RE: I don't do grammar

You do see the distinction between the subject and object in "Republicans murder gays", right? Would you read that as all gays? Maybe I'm missing something...

Not really. That is not more logical that assuming it means ALL Republicans. Why should there be a difference?

Now, given all of this I decided to go back to my original statement in the previous thread. Here it is :

Unfortunately it's not the first time I've seen this, and I've grudgingly admitted in the past that there's nothing more vicious online than when people on your own side decide you have to go down.

Given that you are on the liberal side of hte fence, this observation does not surprise me one bit. I too have seen how the liberal bloggers act and treat the people that they don't agree with. The thing is, you only recgonize their true nature when they go after one of your own. I see it all the time.

Since you like the parallel game, where in that statement is the parallel to your "Liberal bloggers go after people they don't agree with."

Lets look at this statement sentence by sentence:

Given that you are on the liberal side of hte fence, this observation does not surprise me one bit.

This is simply a declaritive sentence that says that I am not surprised by pico's observation that liberal bloggers can be vicious.

I too have seen how the liberal bloggers act and treat the people that they don't agree with.

This is simply a declarative statement that I have seen how liberal bloggers act. Strictly speaking, this is NOT claiming that my observations were exactly the same as pico's, although one might be able to infer that I meant my observations were similar.

The thing is, you only recgonize their true nature when they go after one of your own. I see it all the time.

This merely asserts that I believe that pico only recognizes the true nature of liberal bloggers when they go after one of his own, but that I see [their true nature] all the time. It does NOT make any claim as to what that nature is by my observation.

So, where is the inductive logic and where is the parallel to what you are claiming I even said?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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You don't think my sentence

is an accurate consolidation of the last two blockquotes in your post? Perhaps you're right, I again suggest asking a neutral party such as purpleface... but regardless, if you were to accept (1) and (2) above then I think there's an implied "all" (or at least a "most", as discussed later in that original thread) that goes with the subject and an implied "some" that goes with the object. That honestly seems the most intuitive reading to me.

Since I've already said repeatedly I could be interpreting this incorrectly due to bias and that I'd like to get another perspective, I'm going to drop this now.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Oops, wrong comment.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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I'm not 100% sure about

the technical rules regarding implied some vs all. None of my books had information on it, and a cursory search on the 'net did not offer much in the way of help either. The only direct advice is to state what we mean carefully and leave little to implication when discussing sensitive issues.

Interestingly, many of the articles about inductive fallacies on wikipedia do not use the word 'all' (instead some rely on no modifier--see a few of these examples ) and some use other modifiers such as 'most'. The lack of modifiers adds evidence to the 'all' interpretations when other modifiers are absent.

Pico, do you know the rules for this scenario?

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Just drop it.

The point is now moot.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Sorry

I did not see your other comments. Typing with one hand makes it harder to get back to the FP quickly to see responses.

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I don't know what

you want me to say that I have not already. I admitted (and so did she) that she committed a hasty generalization. It is not a composition fallacy (it is not the same as what I call you on: particular -> group), but it is a type of inductive fallacy IMO. According to your Group A, B, and C example, it is not technically a fallacy, but I can see your point if you are being nit-picky.

I don't think anyone in an initial reading would interpret it as Bush ignored every statute in the Constitution, but interpretations are flexible, so your initial call is not totally absurd.

Bottom line: your interpretation of it as an inductive fallacy (hasty generalization) is technically correct.

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I hereby agree to disagree on this thread too.

This topic has now become moot. See:

I hereby agree to disagree on the specifics.

As well as

No, let me clarify.

Since it is now clear that there will be no consistency in the respnses I receive there is no point in continuing this conversation.  You free to believe what you want regarding the specifics of these threads.

I disagree not only with your (collective) positions on the specifics of these threads but I also believe that the substance of the underlying arguments is being shifted on a case by case basis to suit your (collective) purposes.

Without a stable understanding of the meanings of grammatical constructs and the definitions of terms no meaningful commnication can be achieved.  Attempts to adopt my opponents definitions and terms and to achieve a common understanding appear to have failed.

It is a significant waste of everyone's time to continue at the level that we have been to try and build bridges of understanding and communications when the foundation of those bridges is constantly being shifted, at least from my perspective.  YMMV.

Given this, I am at a bit of a loss as to how to proceed.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Really?

I also believe that the substance of the underlying arguments is being shifted on a case by case basis to suit your (collective) purposes.

Hrmpf! Can't say I particularly appreciate that suggestion, particularly given how careful I was to acknowledge possible bias when pointing out why I believed this case was not an exact parallel to the other case.

Given this, I am at a bit of a loss as to how to proceed.

In my perfect world everyone would, as a sign of mutual respect, qualify broad generalizations of groups with which other posters self-identify (such as liberals or conservatives). Naturally those who choose to exercise similar diligence on behalf of groups such as "constitutional laws" are welcome to do so, regardless of whether or not I or anyone else thinks a modifier is required.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Does it have to collapse instantly? Would you go for ten years?

I guess if I preface all my remarks with some dismissive phrase I'd think better of myself. Floccinaucinihilipilification.

The inability to foresee the future by studying the present and the recent past is characteristic of an immature forebrain. This statistical predictive ability, and its late appearance in the maturing human, is the genesis of much annoyance, as teenagers don't think that 100mph is too much for the freeway in the rain.

Kids.

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I would like to see this

Constitutional Question resolved.

How much power is in the Executive Branch. I think Bush/Cheney have taken executive privelege to an unconstrutive extreme, in the name of a Fanatical agenda.

It is a little frightening to think that the President and his apparently shrinking band of followers completely refuses to listen to anyone outside of his ideological bent.

The secrecy, and defiance of the rule of law, should not be tolerated. We are looking at Watergate style politics and Iran-Contra crimes on steroids, and it seems like the executive branch has decided to push the envelope to an unhealthy extreme.

It is frightening to think that the fanatacial obsession with reclaiming the Holy Land, has created a terrorist backlash which the President is chosing to ignore.

The best answer isn't the courts but Congress. Congress has suponea power and should exert it to the fullest extent. Harriet Miers ignoring Congress (the people's house) should not be tolerated for one second.

Either that, or we can wish for Barney to become a talking dog. Bush might listen to what Barney has to say, even though he is ignoring everyone else.

It is the fanatical aspect that I find most disturbing. In spite of all evidence the President truly believes he is on a mission from God, and his hardcore religous base is fully on board with it.

I think impeachment can be used for political pressure, but I think it would be too much of a distraction. There are many other very pressing issues that need to be dealt with.

Besides if the Congress went for impeachment the President would probably invoke executive privelege and veto it. He thinks he has the power.

It is the economy, stupid.

…………

Here's a video discussion

on the impeachment issue..... as a cure for the constitutional crises.

Honoring the Separation of Powers

A consersation with Bruce Fein, and John Nichols who both support impeachment.

Mercy!

Bruce Fein says that the Nixon impeachment did not close the circle on Presidential power...... and that Bush should be impeached properly with full acknowledgement and confession that he has abused his powers.

It is the economy, stupid.

…………

impeachment

I would urge everyone to go the PBS website and watch the Bill Moyers discussion . Fein was passionate about the issue.
What Americans dont realise is the excessive power that has been accumilated already in the Executive, and this is too much power for a future Dem or Republican.
On the issue of Congress , he calls them " invertebrates" , I agree completely. What are they so scared of ? A Pres. with 26% approval ???

sligowoman

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my quick thoughts on the issue

Though I am no longer a republican and have a very low opinion of President Bush, I am very disinterested in impeaching him nor do I think it is warranted.

Almost no one on the Right thinks our Republic is threatened. We do not see any serious lawlessness either. Yes, incompetence is there and so is corruption but none of it rises to the level of even considering impeachment.

All the talk of impeachment to me sounds hysterical and it would be the quickest way to make me and many others on the Right, who currently disapprove of the Administration and GOP in general, go into the full Bush-defense mode. What it would accomplish is closing of ranks, destruction of any possible bipartisan projects, and energizing the GOP base.

Democrats, on the other hand, would dispel their image as practitioners of a particularly spineless political calculus, and fulfill the popular mandate of November 7th.

You are dreaming if you think that we on the right want to enable the above.

Bush is a lame duck, Congressional GOP are currently stymieing Dem spending priorities, Economy is doing well - those are good things.

War in Iraq is the serious problem and that's what Dems should be concentrating on.

Impeachment is a fantasy and if Dems try to make it a reality it will be war.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Agreed. n/t

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Also agree, I thought the

left would have by now given up on the impeachment idea. BTW, I thought the Republican attempt to impeach Bill Clinton for lying to a grand jury about cheating on his wife was ridiculous.

Also, I am not understanding what the impeachment charge re Bush is.

name the enemy, win the war

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Lots of charges available if you need them

Reasons given by the James Madison for impeachment

George Mason argued that the President might use his pardoning power to “pardon crimes which were advised by himself” or, before indictment or conviction, “to stop inquiry and prevent detection.” James Madison responded: “[I]f the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty….”

AKA Scooter Libby

The danger then consists merely in this, the president can displace from office a man whose merits require that he should be continued in it. What will be the motives which the president can feel for such abuse of his power, and the restraints that operate to prevent it? In the first place, he will be impeachable by this house, before the senate, for such an act of mal-administration; for I contend that the wanton removal of meritorious officers would subject him to impeachment and removal from his own high trust.

AKA US Attorney firiings.

And blithering incompetence as commander in chief, violations of FISA, the Geneva Conventions etc etc.

Personally, I fail to see how Bill Clinton's actions were based on or exacerbated by misuse of Presidential power vs just being a cad.

(As an aside, I consider adulterers in general to be unsuitable for presidential or congressional power (a) because they clearly don't take vows of any sort seriously but more so because (b) they enforce rules against it on the military and should therefore be forced to live by those rules themselves. I'd be perfectly happy with ALL congressional and executive folks forced to resign when caught, but until that happens, I'm not going to pick Clinton out)

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Lame Duck Has Veto Power

Lame Duck ignores Congress.

The issue is there are Three (3) Branches of Govt. Bush seems to think there is a fourth branch. His government he calls it. The one that ignores constitutional law.

It is the economy, stupid.

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RE: Lame Duck Has Veto Power

The one that ignores constitutional law.

This is a lie by the prevailing definition here. Provide some court decisions to back this up, please.

Actually, since you didn't qualify the term "constitutional law" by Specter's reasoning you must mean that they ignore every aspect of constitutional law, right?

So, either provide court cases which demonstrate that the Bush Administration has been found to have ignored every conceivable part of the the constitution or admit your use of bad inductive logic.

Specter, I expect you to back me up here! :)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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Interject

many.

The fourth branch of our government that one that ignores many of our constitutional laws.

Glad to see you now have a better understanding of bad inductive logic. I stand corrected by the new expert on the subject.....:)

It is the economy, stupid.

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Not bad inductive logic

as you use it, but it is an over-generalization. The bad inductive logic that you use (and which angers me most) goes from a particular to a generalization. I don't see a particular in her original statement. She just had an over-generalization which I don't think is a big deal since it didn't try to define a group of people, well beyond the administration anyway, as yours often do.

………… parent

Whew!

This inductive logic is a science unto itself.

Your explanation is illuminating! :+)

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Not that big of a deal,

but the 'particular to group' fallacy makes me mad because it is the basis for most racist comments. "This one _____ guy mugged me, so they are all jerks" or "look at that the participants in that riot. It shows ______ are all animals" is how it works, and as you can see, one (or even several) bad instances are too few to make such broad claims.

Not too difficult, but thanks for the compliment.

(edit): I saw a web-page created by white-supremacists designed to denigrate MLK that was chock full of them. I linked to the main page of the white-supremacists page from there and it had even more--stuff like, 'this video shows why blacks are sub-human', then it would show a black mugger caught on video. That one video is not representative of the entire race, but it relied on bad inductive logic for its claim.

Here is a good overview if you wish.