Monday's debate - (Tuesday) open thread of sorts
First, I have to say I love the YouTube format. The questions were awkwardly-worded, occasionally embarrassing, and sometimes more forceful than anything asked in any of the other debates. That's the joy of giving over the usual over-slicked productions to the ragtag bunch we call "everyday people" - and not just the romanticized everyday people, but the inarticulate, the awkward, and the not-quite-camera-ready.
Okay, I'm under no illusions that the entries weren't vetted a thousand times before they aired, but there was still a weird joy in watching badly-produced questions instead of the carefully parsed, carefully answered. As if in response, the candidates all sputtered and stammered their way through answers. I loved it.
General observations:
- A couple of rough questions (as in, rougher than what you'd get in a standard debate) were asked: How is using religion to prevent gay marriage any different than using religion to justify other forms of discrimination? Are you Democrats only wavering on Iraq policy because you're afraid you'll get the blame for losing the war?
- Some softballs: Should women be registering for selective service? (well, duh) Do you care about global warming? (double duh)
- The questions from left field: Should we be paying reparations for slavery? (Edwards nonetheless pulled a good answer from it, if you can believe that.)
I'm still comfortably on the fence, and I have no interest in getting in anyone's camp this early in the game. For what it's worth, I thought Obama had the highest ratio of successes to failures tonight, although no one pitched a perfect game, and most of the candidates acquitted themselves decently, given the format.
If you haven't seen any of the clips, they're online at CNN.com . I'm curious if you all watched them, and what you thought.

Comments :
It was a refreshing change
I loved it too.
Can we give a shout out to the good citizens who asked the questions.
Finally a debate that wasn't over rehearsed, stiff and too controlled.
Anything that sparks regular citizens to be interested in participating in our democracy is good, especially young people.
I enjoyed watching much more than I thought I would.
I will be curious to see the kind of questions the GOP Tubers ask.
The other question from left field, was the man worried about protecting his 'baby', the Russian inspired automatic weapon used by the Columbine killers. I thought Biden's answer was appropriate.
I'm only half stupid
The best answer in the debate...
not surprisingly, from Bill Richardson:
Wow... refreshing.
That's why he's the best candidate in the bunch... and if he can't win, he should be the winner's VP nominee.
I survived the Bush Administration
So, how was the SL get-together?
Any fun pics?
YouTube questions sounds cool, I didn't watch though. I still like the idea of head-to-head debates or debates focused exclusively on a particular topic to mix things up.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
well it wasn't much but
we relaxed and had some fun. GoRight showed up for a bit and so did Pico (though at different times) :) Mostly it was myself, PF, and Prime. At the end we checked out the Republican gathering but frankly it was boring and then I had to go to sleep and left.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
The dem debates
would have been much more fun for you to watch.
Are you all packed and ready for vacation?
I'm only half stupid
I started watching the debate
but it was too boring full of cliches so I turned it off in favor of listening to music and chilling in SL.
I'll be packed and ready tonight :) But yeah, I am really looking forward to my vacation!
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I apologize
I actually got off work early because my wife needed me to come home but then I got into my reading and completely spaced about the meeting. I would have liked to see what people thought of the identifiers (looking for a good name) so far.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
well drop by today
or whatever :) If you see PF she can email me and if I am around I'll get in for a bit.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Yeah...
We checked out a GOP meeting, where there was actually a quite conservative, but very out, Republican lesbian in attendance. That was interesting.
Kind of like a fundamentalist baptist preacher that's a flaming liberal. ;-)
GoRight left as I was coming in (not a coincidence, maybe? ;-) ).
We got to see pico without any pants on for a bit... that was interesting.
Other than that... the political discussion was not existent. We just hung out and messed around with some "pose balls" that Purpleface and I had socked away in the dusty parts of our inventories.
I survived the Bush Administration
A Recap
So nice having another SL person on board Prime. That made showing off that poseball a lot of fun. It's truly one of the nicest in SL, and your avatar is almost the perfect size for it with mine. If I hadn't been so distracted, I would have snapped some pictures. The rest of the crew is still getting used to the camera controls.
Pico's avatar is styling. Very few can pull off that look and make it work.
Ender did give us a play-by-play of the debate for a while, until it got boring. And we were going to check in to the Democrats' meeting, until they canceled it; those Dems sure could use a shot of some SC personality. The Republicans' meeting is usually a hoot, and both Ender and Prime were in rare form. I think maybe they drew some attention. I missed most of the Condi remarks though, darn.
Ender and GoRight got to talk shop for a while. Serious conservatives, you know.
Saw Specter pop in briefly but did not have a chance to say hey.
And yes, GoRight, I was online waaay past my bedtime. Nearly met the dawn this morning. Dunno what happened.
EDIT: They will be streaming all the videoed Yearly Kos events live into Second Life. If you cannot attend in person, you can attend virtually. You do need to pre-register at the Yearly Kos Convention site in SL.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
China's Latest Toxic Import
Air
Transcontinental Pollution.
From the WSJ
Oddly the plume of particulate matter reflects the heat of the sun helping shield us from global warming, while at the same time some of the particles absorbs heat raising the temperature of the earth.
I'm only half stupid
Shocking News
The Pentagon plans to stay in Iraq until '09!
Who could have guessed!
Just in case you might have entertained the notion that Petraeus would go against the President. The plan sees mini-security initiatives on a local level, until the end of time apparently.
I fully expect to see a flood of 'good news' stories on nicely Iraq is coming along for months. And just think it's only costing a million dollars a minute. Such a deal.
I'm only half stupid
if Petraeus thinks it's a good plan
then why not give him time to try it? I know that the Dems are only thinking about withdrawal regardless of how everything is going but the Sept. assessment might be at odds with that.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
More time, more money
Really all this is getting so very very old.
It doesn't matter what any of us think now does it. For or against.
I am sick and tired of seeing US tax payer dollars going into to trying to build a government in Iraq. The Iraqi leaders care so much let t hem take charge of their own country and pay to have it built with oil money. The prices are high enough they can afford it. But no, they are on vacation!
I would like to see the Iraqi refugees be able to return to their own country and their own homes with an Iraqi govt, not a puppet govt paid for by the US.
How can you possibly have stability without good electricity or clean water. OH that's right the US tax payer has to pay for that too.
Sick of it.
I'm only half stupid
Can we trust Petraeus?
The real issue is whether or not Petraeus will give an honest assessment of the conditions on the ground. Will he simply lie to congress and say the surge is working (without any supporting evidence)? If so, will the moderate Republicans call him on his shit? We've already heard McCain and Lieberman say that they don't care what the report says. They believe we need to "win" the war in Iraq, at all costs.
Andrew Sullivan is all but sure that Petraeus is going to give Bush cover to justify keeping troops there until he leaves office. I'm not so sure he's wrong.
That being so, I've heard reports that we simply won't have the troops to keep the surge in place after April unless we start pulling them from Germany, S. Korea, and start a draft.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
couple of points
1. I believe we can trust Petraeus. He is a very honest and good general and a great leader with innovative ideas. The knowledge that I can trust him currently is conflicting with the poor state of affairs in Iraq in general. Then again, I am determined to wait till the report in September and I will give his report a lot of credence.
2. I do not trust the reports that we'll need to pull troops from other countries en mass, and the draft idea is as absurd as ever.
I think the current second guessing of what he will present in September is disrespectful to Petraeus and others working hard to get something done in the face of incredible domestic disapproval.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Don't you remember
when it was 18 months about 18 months ago. Why do you still buy the perpetual movement of these deadlines?
Do you really have everlasting patience when your money is wasted?
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
you have to admit
that we finally have someone competent in control of our forces in Iraq. All those months back we did not have it.
I don't have everlasting patience but I also don't have the balls to accuse one of the most competent and bright generals of lying and covering for the administration. Which is why I've cooled down on the topic and am waiting to see what happens.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
One of the greatest generals ever
was Erwin Rommel, commander of the Afrika Korps and later commander of German forces in France after the Normandy invasion.
No general, no matter how brilliant a strategist, can reverse the fortunes of a doomed war.
qui tacet consentire
eh
A very competent General at the helm of the German military would've beat Russia and England combined. Both were on the brink of defeat but for Hitler's impatiently switching up tactics... So that is a bad example bringing up WW2 :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Beat Russia...
Doubt it.
Do you have any idea of those people's capacity for enduring pain. A friend of mine who was a child then, described how they were relocating their military forces to the East, they were not about to give up.
A mind blowing statistic. We were devastated when we lost 3K people in 9-11, and the losses of our forces in Iraq. Russian military and civilians during the six years of WWII, aprox. 20,000 dead, each DAY.
Yes I have an idea
considering my grandfather fought in the Soviet Army and my family lost half its size in ww2 on the Russian side... I used to enjoy reading ww2 history and took some classes in college though not lately.
USSR was very close to being defeated in the first 2 years. Hitler made a series of strategic blunders which allowed the Red Army to catch up.
At one point if only Hitler pushed for a few more days, Moscow would've fallen as there were almost no more reserves defending it but Hitler stopped the attack. Without Moscow it would've been over.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
It's an even better analogy
thanks to you, Ender. :)
If not for Hitler's incompetence, he might have sent Rommel to command the invasion of Russia.
If not for Bush's incompetence, he might have put Petraeus in charge four years ago.
If Petraeus had been in charge from the beginning this might be a very different war today. Maybe Petraeus could have stopped the looting after we rolled into Baghdad. Doubtless he would have seen the beginnings of the insurgency forming and taken steps then to squash it.
But Bush opted for yes men. And the rest, as they say, is history.
qui tacet consentire
decent point... n/t
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I'm more than willing to give Petraeus
time -- he's caught up in the white-hot politics of it all, and what choice do we have?
but, do you ever watch Col. David Hunt (military guy on Fox) -- I like him, .. he's reminds me of a pit bull, frankly :), but my point:
he says our boys are performing extraordinary well, of course ; it's that once we secure an area, the Iraqis (both military, and police! which is wholly corrupt), are simply incapable of taking over from us -- ... and that's the damn problem which Petraeus has limited control over.
It's the Iraqis. It's the Iraqis politically, and it's the Iraqis militarily. and what the heck can we do about that??? beats me!
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
yes
I have watched those arguments on Fox. I know the fault lies with the Iraqis and their lack of competence, corruption, sectarian strife, and a host of other problems...
So the argument is that our military is making progress while the Iraqis are screwing up everywhere else.
Maybe we should withdraw. And maybe not - I can't really get behind any position right now.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
it's above my pay grade, that's for sure! lol
We're in a hell of a fix:
we can't leave, and yet we can't stay! imagine that, for a superpower like us ... my, oh my
Hey, Ender -- I registered here ages ago when Armando was around -- and the site's gone thru some changes! (looks good), since, but I was still in the system .... cool :)
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
In war, when faced with a situation in which....
...you are damned if you don't and damned if you do....
you should choose the option that is least likely to cause your countrymen to die.
Which option kills less of our servicemen? Staying or leaving?
Both bad options... but that is the result of a bad policy decision made four years ago. We can't undo that disastrous mistake by President Dumbass, so what can we do to keep from losing more of our best and brightest?
We get out. We let Iraq fall into civil war, even become the Yugoslavia of the middle east. We let the dust settle... and when it is over, the Kurds will have their "Kurdistan"... the Sunnis will get a major dose of karma and face "ethnic cleansing" by the shiites. Iraq will be run by pro-Iran shiites.
But, unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the above is the best case scenario.
Bush has f--ked things up so bad, making the exact wrong choice at almost every turn, that our options are choosing between bad and worse.
Not another American soldier should die over this mistake. It will take decades of diplomatic work to undo the damage caused by this administration in the middle east. But let's do it with our military somewhere else.
Iraq is a lost cause. Either we accept that and let it be lost now or we don't and wait a couple years to reach the same result anyway... but with thousands more US servicemen dead.
I survived the Bush Administration
hehe
you weren't this brave at the Rep meeting last night!
I generally agree that Bush has screwed up at almost every turn (including with the idiotic invasion of Iraq to begin with when there are better and more relevant targets) but that does not mean that competent people have zero chance at fixing some things and there is a serious level of military/strategic competence in action now.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Chat
Chat doesn't lend itself well to a several-paragraph editorial on the war.
;-)
I survived the Bush Administration
you'd be surprised
but yeah you are mostly right. :)
I think you were also distracted by the lesbian republican leader.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
sigh..
Sadly... you are correct.
She fascinated me in her conservative zeal, even while her profile professed her steadfast lesbian-ness.
She's a rare bird.
;-)
I survived the Bush Administration
it's very understandable
Being homosexual does not and should not automatically adjust your ideological bent especially if the core values are held very strongly.
I think atheists/agnostics like me are not all that incredibly liked by a majority of the GOP/Conservatives/Right Wing yet there are plenty of others like me who do not even contemplate somehow changing our views on 90% of the issues and move to a party that is friendlier to me on that 10% even if that 10% is very important? No thank you.
I left the GOP for many reasons but leaving an ideology? I'd have to change who I am to do that :) Maybe it's similar for that woman and she feels at home with the Right Wing views.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
A golf analogy
I'm an avid golfer. In golf, there is the saying that we use quite often... "unmakeable putt".
This is a putt that is not physically able to be holed. The green breaks in such a way that there is physically no combination of speed and direction that you can impart on the ball that will cause it to fall in the hole.
The best you can hope for is to get down in two.
A democratic, free, and secular Iraq is no longer possible.
Actually, change the "and" in the previous sentence to an "or" and it still isn't possible.
Bush's approach shot into the green has left us with an unmakeable putt.
Rather than try to do the impossible, we need to take our extra stroke and move on to the next hole.
Petraeus is a competent person, I'm sure. But competent people cannot achieve the unachievable.
I survived the Bush Administration
thanks
yeah I checked if you were a new user but you have a low uid so I figured you were one of the first :)
When we changed the software we did transfer all the users over.
So welcome! Are/were you also a dkos user?
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Thanks for the welcome ...
I was/am a dkosser, but I chose to use a different moniker here -- and I'm glad I did --- it's more, shall we say, liberating :)
Now, excuse me, while I search for a clever signature :)
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
That's the rub
Like I discussed in great detail in a prior thread on the topic of Petreaus and the surge (sorry, cannot find it), when you boil this down, we have only a couple of options.
It seems that the best we can do for the Iraqis is try to give them a window of opportunity for them to find their feet and take control. If they fail to do so, then the results will be on their heads. We cannot remain there forever.
But it is in our best interests to do what we can to fix the mess that is Iraq. It seems that Petreaus has a functional plan and the ability to execute it, something that was missing from the prior strategies. I still say, give the man a chance to pull this off. It may not work. But I think we have to try.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
Absolutely! we gotta buy time, and hope ;)
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
RE: Shocking News
What's shocking is that you believe that we will even leave by then. One of the unspoken reasons for the Iraq war has always been to establish a permanent presence in the Middle East as a deterrent.
Unless the Iraqi's formally ask us to leave through diplomatic channels we never will ... at least not completely.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Gonzales is Grilled Again
If a special prosecucutoer is appointed, does Gonazles get to pick who?
I'm only half stupid
the lil fight between independentminded and hepeedonmyrug
(hehe damn it's a bit harsh!) made me think of a feature to implement in the new version that would help perpetuate long standing exchanges and debate even in diaries that have long scrolled off the Recent Diaries list.
It will be a block that will show all the "Active" diaries/stories which meant anything that gets a new comment will immediately show up in that block, no matter how old. So stuff like that will not get lost in the mix :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Sleight of hand by Dubya
Bush links Iraq to Al Qaida
He makes the (valid) point that we are fighting al Qaida in Iraq. The point that he seems to ignore is that there was no al Qaida in Iraq before we went there.
Our occupation of Iraq has created an al Qaida in Iraq.
The sleight of hand is that he wants to confuse cause with effect when he says "the reason we are in Iraq is to fight al Qaida."
So now he's premoniscient. He was able to foresee that al Qaida would be in Iraq and wanted to get our military in place before that could happen. ;-)
The fact completely sails past him that al Qaida's growth in Iraq is a direct result of us going there. We caused it. The best recruiting tool al Qaida had was our invasion and subsequent occupation.
Bush made bin Laden a prophet again to muslims throughout the middle east.
First, OBL said in 1990 that if the Saudi government let us set up bases on their soil we would never leave. We proved him right.
OBL (through his subordinates) said in 2002 that if we invaded Iraq we would become an occupying force and would result in al Qaida's numbers growing in leaps and bounds. We proved him right again.
At every turn, Bush has succeeded in taking the exact action that increases the numbers of muslims that want to take up arms against us. The exact action that results in OBL looking more and more like a prophet to his followers.
Al Qaida is playing Bush like a violin, and he doesn't seem to realize it.
We could not have selected a more incapable President for these times.
He's being played. And he falls into their trap every time.
I survived the Bush Administration
I thought the
same thing when I saw him on the news tonight spewing that garbage. I don't think the people will buy it, but he's definitely attempting the hard-sell of fear through Iraq = 9/11.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
Is it really the President who is being played
or is it the man who whispers in his ear?
Who is that man anyway.
I think it's William Kristol who has the agenda.
I'm only half stupid
Hillary Vs.... Hillary
Sorry I missed you guys on SL yesterday. I went to a neighborhood debate party and ended up hanging out with strangers for the balance of the evening (knowing I had to work today). But I'll catch you guys on the nest time.
One thing I did catch in the debate was Hillary's "we won't talk with just anybody" swipe during the debate (regarding the use of diplomacy) and I wondered "didn't she say the opposite not long ago"?
Via Drudge we get:
Last Night's Hillary:
And April Hillary:
Am I being unfair in saying this just looks contradictory (or at best, a very
calculatedmanufacturederr..."measured") statement? Or is it a smart move since most people don't remember these type of things?http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Reason number 3,475....
...of "why Democrats nominate Hillary at their own peril"
The powers that be (media, Democratic leadership, lobbyists) have decided that she is going to be the nominee... and they're going to make sure it happens.
So the public won't hear about her contradictive statements.
Take her out of the mix, and we Dems actually have a pretty good field this cycle.
I survived the Bush Administration
You go, dude! Convince 'em! n/t
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Why would you say that?
You should be salivating at the chance of an anyone vs Clinton general. I truly believe the only way the Democrats can lose is if they nominate Hillary Clinton.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
It wasn't contradictory
I watched that part of the debate. The question was whether the candidate would promise to personally meet with the heads of Syria, Iran, Cuba and/or Venezuala within a year of being elected.
She responded that she would not make such a promise because such a meeting could be used for nothing but propaganda purposes. That she would open up negotiations and high level talks but that she would not personally meet with them unless the talks reached the point where that was appropriate.
The second quote seems to be consistent with the having-the-state-department-open-up-discussions part.
OK n/t
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
If only Dubya had read his dad's book..
...assuming he can read.
An excerpt from "A World Tranformed", a book by George HW Bush, published in 1998:
Daddy got it. Too bad sonny-boy fell in with the wrong crowd.
I came across this quote again today.. and given everything that has happened... it kind of sends chills down your spine.
I survived the Bush Administration
My next literature diary is up,
and it's even longer than the last. I think I'm going to pare down the next one so it's not so overwhelming.
At any rate, enjoy: Fyodor Dostoevsky
.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Great work
and nice to see it get some well-deserved recognition at dKos.
I enjoyed reading Crime and Punishment for a college lit course (wonder if I still have that paper somewhere, lol; probably terrible) -- maybe I'll check out Brothers K when I have some free time.
Love the ongoing series.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Great stuff again. n/t
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
Is MadScientist gone?
I went to look at his last comment. It was on a July 11 and was a heated comment at that. Has anyone had any contact with him since?
I think so
I also was wondering where he was a few days ago and saw the same heated comment. I actually edited the cuss words that were spelled correctly, but left those that were not (I suppose I should so as not to create a loop-hole).
He left before with more of an official announcement and then came back. I'm not sure if he is returning this time. He seems to be thin-skinned at times to let such a relatively trivial exchange keep him away.
I think Brendan may have his email address if it is not public in his account (I did not check before this comment).
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
I don't think it's public
but super-awesome-ninja admins like you and me can go to "edit" in his user profile and read off the email address. That's the one I had.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I haven't heard anything from him
I was thinking of emailing him to check on what was up. He kind of snapped, it seemed like.
Any suggestions? Want me to email him?
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I hate losing
any member (especially those with different perspectives), but frankly I'm torn on initiating an invitation back after that last exchange. I will leave it at that.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
I would.
I liked MS.
Maybe he's still reading the blog here and there.
If you are reading this, MS, speak up and come back.
I emailed the editors
so we can discuss it offsite.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
My vote on that
No.
I'm only half stupid
There you go again MissL
MadScientist would no doubt accuse you of "mind reading", in this case, quite successfully. ;-)
I don't get the need to chase down the GBCW folks. Respond to people who say you are treating them poorly, sure. Chasing after them after they run off in a huff just makes them even more dramatic.
on MS
I had written a longer comment but decided to go with the briefer version.
The final profanity laced and self destructing temper tantrum coupled with copious personal insults to others was uncalled for and showed an overall disposition that violated the spirit of debating in good faith.
I'm only half stupid
Personally
I don't see where he contributed anything to the site.
But you knew that was my position.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Academic integrity vs free speech
A Colorado University regents panel fired ex-Professor Ward Churchill under the advice of university president Hank Brown
(a former republican senator).
Although Churchill's particular case is interesting, I'm more interested in the implications regarding the future of tenureship and freedom of speech in academia.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/
Interesting list, if you like science
Top Ten Discoveries of the Mars Rovers
these things were supposed to last 3 months, but have been doing their work for almost 3 years now.
And I'm ashamed to admit that I only knew about 3 of the 10 discoveries.
My new favorite:
#7 - Mars Stinks
I survived the Bush Administration
My favorite
Number 3. A Martian sky.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein