Weekend OT

The U.N. is slowly increasing its presence in Iraq.

The 'War Czar' thinks we may need to consider a military draft.

Market swings become a concern for the new Fed.

As skymutt pointed out, Markos and SusanG have an Op-Ed in today's (Saturday's) Washington Post.

Weekends are fun.

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The Law of the Sea Treaty

The irony of this story is thick and dynamic.

While US political gurus have been holding the American public hostage with a laserlike focus on divisive political debate, are you 'with us or against us'...

.... the Russians have been busy riding in submarines and have planted a Russian flag at the bottom of the oil saturated Arctic Ocean.

Russians Plant Flag Under the North Pole

The ideologues that insist on the politically crippling notion that the US is above pesky international laws and treaties have not ratified the Law of the Sea Treaty . This treaty was first rejected by the Reagan administration saying it violated free market principles (can you say Iran).

The US stands alone as not ratifying the Sea Treaty. I wonder how this will play in the International Community, that has Denmark, Russia, Canada, the US and others who are clamoring to claim rights to the oil rich seabed.

Has the US been sideswiped by Russia?

Russia's eagerness to secure the rights to Arctic energy worries many policymakers in Washington, who argue that the U.S. is powerless to intervene while it remains mired in a 13-year debate over ratification of a United Nations treaty governing international maritime rights.

That pact, the Law of the Sea Treaty, is viewed by many as the world's primary means of settling disputes over exploitation rights and navigational routes in international waters. Russia and 152 other nations have ratified the treaty.

U.S. lawmakers who oppose the treaty have held up its ratification in Congress since 1994, arguing that signing on to the pact cedes too much power to the UN. Proponents of the treaty say if the U.S. doesn't ratify it, Russia's bid for the Arctic's energy wealth will go unchallenged.

Even more bizarre in the land of irony is that likely this undersea oil reserve underneath the North Pole, would likely not have a Russian flag on it with out the realities of climate change that has melted enough ice to make the ocean more passable.

…………

Canada is

making moves also to claim territory.

(Edit): The article I link to looks like a continuation/further development of yours.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

………… parent

Ha!

Even more ironic is the ideologues, like Frank Gaffney that vehemently insist that there really is no such thing as International Law (interferes with free markets) and are trying to absolve themselves of such notions as honoring International Conventions and Agreements leave out one small detail.

Without International Law as mandated by the United Nations, the State of Israel would not exist.

………… parent

Skymutt not me :i(

I linked to an article about Pastor Dan of, Daily Kosin the NYT.

Skymutt shows us the Washington Post article.

…………

Oops,

thanks.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

………… parent

flattered

that you thinking me when it comes to relevant newsy news. ;+)

I am sure you are pooped from your demanding responsibilities, father, husband, teacher, philosopher, blog superviser and cheif frisbee thrower for man's best friend.

………… parent

Yes,

I guess there were a few stories floating around about Kos, but it must say something that I chose you as the default provider of the stories. :-)

I am pooped. I got about 4 hours of sleep last night and I have a long day ahead of me still. (Do I complain so much that you can just rattle off my responsibilities like that? Hmm, I'll have to watch my whining.)

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

………… parent

No you weren't whining

And you don't complain.

I was just empathizing with you. I know you have a lot on your plate. I don't know how you keep up. I don't do half as much as you do, and I have trouble keeping abreast of my puny deadlines.

………… parent

Is Newt still influential?

This article believes so.

I'm not so sure.

1. He's got too much personal baggage now (hypocrisy).

2. He has no answers for the big issues that are at the forefront hurting the GOP: Iraq and corruption/hypocrisy (see #1).

He had his chance in '94 and blew it.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

…………

More news

Recent developments from this morning:

In Iraq, a bomb killed the regional governor and police chief in a southern province. The area is having many intra-Shiite conflicts.

The Taliban released two of the remaining 21 South Korean hostages.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

…………

Another question for

you advocates of free-markets:

How would mine safety be managed without regulations ?

Would consumers shut down the unsafe/hazardous mines by not buying coal (or whatever other product being mined)?

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

…………

American history says no.

Which shouldn't be a surprise :

From 1880 to 1910, mine accidents claimed thousands of fatalities. The U.S. Bureau of Mines was created in 1910 to investigate accidents, advise industry, conduct production and safety research, and teach courses in accident prevention, first aid, and mine rescue. The Federal Coal Mine Health and Safety Acts of 1969 and 1977 set further safety standards for the industry. Where annual mining deaths had numbered more than 1,000 a year in the early part of the 20th century, they decreased to an average of about 500 in the late 1950s, and to 93 during the 1990's.

Apparently this was something the market failed to fix on its own.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

………… parent

Before I answer that

ask yourself this question,

Have "we" or have we not always advocated regulations for safety, abuse and fraud?

The answer is yes.

So, in order for your question (and other similar questions) to have any teeth, you have to ignore or misconstrue parts of what we say.

The idea of "restraining men from injuring one another, leaving them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits" (Thomas Jefferson) carries a lot of weight and is a powerful guiding factor in free markets.

As for a alternative answer to your question (in the spirit of providing a thoughtful answer to your question), I think the idea of property rights offers one.

Property and privacy rights imply much more than freedom to regulate oneself and one's property, it also carries a responsibility and liability for its misuse and mismanagement as it relates to others privacy.

With that in mind, I think a strong all inclusive enforcement of private property applies here. The mine owners are responsible for the safety of their employees and should be held accountable. With this in mind, mine owners would not shirk their responsibility of taking every precaution in mining methods and would be very mindful of cost and life saving preventive measures.

Often times, socialized safety measures, like this Act you mention, include a relieved level of liability if the mine meets the standards of the act and is allowed to operate in the first place.

As for the Act of 1977, we could also say that such an act, 30 years after its implementation, is not stopping all mining disasters.

PS: The stats on decreased mining accidents have more than just the Safety Acts in play. As I and others have eluded to before, better technology and increased wealth and the higher standards in working conditions in all sectors they afford on society, make people demand and expect more. Lack of safety and discriminating "working tastes"are more prevalent in poorer countries where basic survival concerns outweigh improved quality of life.

Working conditions in the US improved rapidly as the country became wealthier and refined the concerns and aspirations of its citizens. The poorest in society generally live better than most of the country did 100 years ago. There's a lot of shared factors between this and the push for better working conditions.

………… parent

Is the Republican field actually stronger

than the Democratic field? I know that flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but Nonpartisan at Progressive Historians has an interesting take on the relationship between ideology and viability in the two parties. Where I'd primarily disagree with him is his use of the word "base" to refer to the progressives/reactionaries rather than to the broader voter - he's really referring to the more ideologically distant portions of the party. Taken in that light, though, it's definitely an interesting reading of the current field.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

…………

Dunno, is it a good thing

to have the base (idealists) back one candidate who loses in the primary to a more "electable" candidate lacking that ideological appeal? Doesn't that somewhat undermine the winning candidate in the general then?

I'm definitely in favor of voters pushing candidates who mirror their beliefs in primaries and voting for practical reasons in the general (e.g., the Republican candidate is awful so I'll hold my nose and vote for the not-so-hot Dem). Just wondering whether contentious primaries are good for winning elections.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

It's a good question, because

Kerry was the "electable" candidate over Howard Dean, which still sticks in my craw. I do think Nonpartisan is right that base (idealist) candidates are more effective at bringing out supporters, but you're right that you risk losing the moderate or otherwise ideologically disinterested voters. Still, "electability" is one of those vague catchphrases that has cost Democrats in the past, so I'm a little wary of its use without a strong defense (e.g. a moderate Democrat has a better chance in a strongly "red" district). But point taken.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

………… parent

I don't see that at all

The Conservative base is not happy with any of their present crop of candidates because of social issues.

The Club for Growth is not happy with spending.

The neos are not happy with Bush the Incompetent Commander in Chief.

I think both sides are somewhat dissatisfied overall with their candidates.

The dem centrist base seems happy with Hillary and some are very super happy.

………… parent

That would be my main disagreement

with his article, as well: the progressives don't seem all that dissatisfied with the field. They're not doing cartwheels in the hallways the way reactionaries might with a Tancredo presidency, but they're also not slitting their wrists and running for the Greens. It's a decent, B+ field this year.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

………… parent

That op-ed by SusanG and kos

is pretty badly written. I agree with much of the sentiment, but it wouldn't have hurt to run it through a few more drafts.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

…………

Yeah

I was sort of a Ford fan (mostly because of the endless smearing he got on Redstate) but I'm disappointed with his stance here. I guess it's consistent with his position in a family political machine though. I wish Markos and SusanG had brought up some of the netroots candidates they backed by name, since the DLC was trying to appropriate them.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Hopefully Markos is being coy on purpose

and not showing all of his hand on purpose, saving the wallup for tomorrow's TV fest.

………… parent

They presented

great points but gave a poor delivery. A lot of the verb-usage is awkward. They used a lot of strange and unnecessary passive/present perfect sentence structures.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

………… parent

And how could you not love

A new day is dawning for the progressive movement.

I slapped my forehead on that one.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

………… parent

It was

a dark and stormy night for the DLC. :-)

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

………… parent

Very appealing.

………… parent

I could have predicted that ...

without even reading it!  But thanks for the confirmation.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

A new frontier (for me)

I am posting this from my cell phone. If this works, all productivity for me in the future will cease. I'll never do anything except be here. :-)

I survived the Bush Administration

…………

iPhone?

I'm jealous. Hello unproductivity!

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

………… parent

Actually, no

It is a 3-yr-old Nokia. Basic cell phone. It has internet capability, and I am using a program called "Google Reader" to get this site via the RSS feed. The only downside is I cannot drag-n-drop other people's comments, and I have to "text" my postings... which means every posting takes 3 times as long. This one took about 5 minutes.

I survived the Bush Administration

………… parent

RE: Actually, no

Well, this could actually work to your advantage then.  By taking 3X the time to write your posts maybe they will actually be comprehensible!  Assuming, of course, that you can maintain a coherent thought for 3X as long!

100% kidding!

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Put the phone down now

and slowly walk away, before you life is in shatters.

………… parent

I hope you

are not driving too! :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

I have bene thinking ...

what with the deteriorating infrastructure and mine accidents and such being, obviously of course, solely the fault of the Bush Administration that we should try to get the Democrats on record before the next election as to when they intend to have all of these problems addressed if the American people agree to elect them.

I don't want to be accused of unfairly criticizing them after the fact and I KNOW how much the Democrats like to have timetables in place.  So, how long after we see the next Democrat President will all of the following be solved:

  1. Bridge repairs will be completed by when?
  2. A permanent solution to the problem of on-going maintenance of the repaired bridges will be in place by when?
  3. All existing mines will be retrofitted so as to be 100% safe with no possibility of accident by when?
  4. A permanent solution to the problem of on-going mine maintenance will be in place by when?
  5. All US territory will be rendered completely safe from all known acts of nature by when?  These solutions shall be guaranteed to prevent any further death or injury from the following at a minimum:
    • Hurricanes
    • Tornadoes
    • Thunderstorms
    • Volcanic Activity
    • Earthquake
    • Erosion
    • Ice Storms
    • Heat Waves
  6. World famine will be eradicated by when?
  7. World peace will be achieved by when?
  8. All crime within the US will be eliminated by when?
  9. All US classified information and the full details of the operation of all US intelligence gathering efforts will be disclosed by when?
  10. Both Mexico and Canada will be annexed by when?  (To solve the illegal immigration crisis.)
  11. New clean, abundant, and economical energy sources will be available by when?
  12. The dismantling of all fossil fuel based infrastructures along with their replace by those infrastructures required to distribute these new energy sources will be completed by when?
  13. All pollution within US territory will have been cleaned up by when?
  14. New clean, abundant, and economical replacements for wood based products will be available by when?  (To save the trees.)
  15. Precautions to completely prevent the unecessarily loss of plant or animal life within US territory will be completed by when?

Have I forgotten anything important here?  I don't want to leave anything out because by setting a timetable for such things we are assured that they will come to pass.  So, when you timetable comes due we expect results if you get elected.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

…………

*Hands GoRight more straw.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask the people who propose a war to have a gameplan for completing that war. I do think it's unreasonable to ask people who don't create hurricanes to propose a gameplan for stopping hurricanes. Just a thought.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

………… parent

So Katrina was not a problem then?

I mean you're OK with how FEMA responded and all?  If not then give me the timetable for putting in place whatever is necessary to prevent all loss of life and destruction of property that you are complaining about.

For example, when will the Democrats have those levees fixed to where they are GUARANTEED to withstand a Cat 5 Hurricane.  When will they have all the equipment and plans in place to effect a forced evacuation of New Orleans.

Also, given that we are apparently capable of controlling the climate, stopping or preventing a single hurricane should be child's play, right?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Ridiculous games GoRight.

You know only Republicans who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, that have donated to the RNC and have bought tickets to the Creationist Museum, are the only ones that have enough prayer power to stop hurricanes.

………… parent

What are you talking about?

This is like GoRight whiplash today: throw out a hodgpodge of unrelated issues, pretend they're all related to something, then accuse other people of saying things they aren't saying according to terms that you've laid out but no one else buys.

Sorry, you're going to have to be more coherent if you expect a more coherent response.

You started by criticizing Democrats' ostensible lack of plans according to the terms Democrats use to criticize Bush's lack of plans. I think I outlined pretty clearly why that comparison was completely disingenuous. Do you want to try addressing that rather than putting words into my mouth?

I've been more than critical of all aspects of local, state, and federal treatment of the levee issue, but I've also outlined how Democrats have had better success in hurricane management than Republicans (old diary here ). At the bottom there's a link to an excellent run-down of FEMA's successes/failures under Bushes and Clinton. You won't like the results.

Could Democrats be doing more to restructure FEMA and the incompetent Corps of Engineers? Hells yes, even with the threat of a suddenly active Presidential veto. You won't get any disagreement from me there, or likely from anyone here: doubly so when we have a Democratic president, who I hope we hold to pretty high standards. So what's your point, exactly?

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

………… parent

I think my post was perfectly clear.

I gave a detailed list of topics on which I would like to firm deadline by which each item will be "fixed", "solved", or "rendered irrelevant" by the next Democratic President.  Obviously the clock doesn't start ticking until said President takes office.  So, the timetables could be structured using the following referential time formats:

  • XX Days after taking office the new Democratic President shall have effected YY.
  • XX Weeks after taking office the new Democratic President shall have effected YY.
  • XX Months after taking office the new Democratic President shall have effected YY.
  • XX Years after taking office the new Democratic President shall have effected YY.

All kidding aside, I was never asking you for a timetable for preventing hurricanes.  I was asking for a timetable for putting in place the necessary preventative and remedial measures to prevent all loss of life and/or destruction of property in the event of a [ insert natural disaster ].  This is directly in line with the Democrat criticisms of the Republicans in both preparation and response to Katrina.  I am asking for the timetable by which the Democrat President in question will have things fixed to the point where we will never again see the level of death an destruction associated with Katrina.

This seems a resonable request given the rhetoric surrounding the Bush Administration's performance.  For example, one complaint was that Bush ignored the levees.  OK, so if we elect a Democrat President how long until the levees are fixed such that they have a 100% guarantee of withstanding a Category 5 hurricane?

One of the complaints about FEMA in the aftermath of Katrina was it's lack of response and/or evacuation preparations.  OK, so if we elect a Democrat President how long until we have in place the equipment and planning required to FORCE an evacuation of New Orleans prior to the next hurricane of Katrina's caliber or greater?

Why do you feel that these are unfair requests?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Brilliant

Any one wanna play split the nail with Go Right.

Your point is democrats are hypocrits,

and.....

Was there anything else.

………… parent

Why I'm shocked to here this!

Your point is democrats are hypocrits

I've said no such thing.  I was asking for some details on your plans to solve these issue that you keep talking about.  In case I want to switch my vote this time around.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Fishing again.

Beg me to change your mind? Why. Show me that you care about these 'issues' first.

Why act like you care about rebuilding New Orleans. I don't believe that you do.

Why the pretense.

Why don't you just say what you mean.

You think dems are fos, and the reasons are.......

………… parent

I notice an interesting pattern here...

Democrats: The Republicans are incompetant at XXX.

GoRight: Hmm, OK.  Tell me what you would do differently.

Democrats: Stop calling us hypocrits.

Is it in the nature of Democrats to level charges of incompetence at their oppoonents when they have no better plans for which they are willing to be held accountable?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

It is in the nature of humans

to complain about authority.

Democrats: Republicans are incompetent.

GoRight: What would you do differently.

Duh. We would replace the incompetent Republican leadership and go from there. But since we can't do that right now, you keep pointing to the mind numbing incompetence to garner the political will to ensure that there is a change of the party affiliation of the leadership in the next election.

………… parent

Duh is right.

Umm, by what would you do differently, I obviously mean what policies would you seek to put in place.  Sometimes you display the perceptiveness of a brick wall.

If you want to make people believe that you are the better party, then why not actually say how you want to fix the things you are complaining about?

Why not?  Because you obviously have nothing to offer.  Nothing to differentiate yourselves from the Republicans.  All you have is a bunch of hit pieces and attack talking points with no substance.  Am I wrong?

Then show me.  Show me the plans.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

I can't speak for the party.

If I could I would have threatened them within an inch of their life if they voted to make legal the wiretapping thingy.

Basically I would stop starving the beast. Government can work, and it should work. The R's have underfunded so many public institutions right down to basic things like public libraries to privatizing prisons. The Iraq war has been convenient that way. That is where the money for the levees went to... Iraq.

………… parent

I don't want you to be the official voice of your party.

I want you to articulate the things that your party has been saying on these topics ... but most specifically those things that they claim to be a plan for the future in these areas.

I assume as a member of the party you have some idea what their positions are, correct?  If not you might want to think about why you don't.  I suspect its not your problem, but theirs ... as in they've got nothing.

EDIT:

The Iraq war has been convenient that way. That is where the money for the levees went to... Iraq.

That's just BS on its face.  The Iraq war was funded by appropriations for that purpose.  They didn't divert any funds from levee funds.

The fact of the matter is that the money for the levees went into the pockets of the local democrat politicians and their buddies.  Just look at William Jefferson and his freezer for how things work down there.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

I knew it was coming......

GoRight

...in otherwords, the dems got nothing.

Thankfully I avoided the long drawn out nail splitting, because I knew this actually your starting statement, AND your ending statement.

All you had to say was that you think the Dems got nothin.....!

I BS your bs and raise you by one truth quotient. The money for the levees was diverted to fund the all volunteer National Guard in New Orleans that was sent to Iraq.

There are many news sources to choose from about this diversion of funds from the levees. Take your pick.

………… parent

BS on your BS of my BS ... :)

OK, so I started looking through the articles you provided to see where they claim that funds which had been set asside for levee repair had been diverted to Iraq.  Here's what I found in the first few:

http://www.shalomctr.org/node/1059

Makes no such claim.

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2307

Makes no such direct claim.  Some local know nothing made a snide remark to this effect which has no standing.

http://www.zmag.org/content/newstandard.cfm?itemid=2307

Ditto.  Basically a copy of the same story.

http://www.teachingthelevees.com/timeline_brookings.php

No such claim.

http://media.www.thebatt.com/media/storage/paper657/news/2005/09/13/Opinion/Did-Bush.Cut.New.Orleans.Rainy.Day.Fund-982710.shtml

The state's preparation for the disaster wasn't much better, and it was not because President George W. Bush cut funding. While the federal government has spent less than Louisiana politicians had requested, the state has received more than $1.9 billion for U.S. Army Corps of Engineers projects since Bush was elected. That is $500 million more than any other state, and more than President Bill Clinton provided in a similar amount of time, according to The Washington Post.

But the state managed to waste much of it on things other than levee improvements, such as a $748 million canal lock project, according to The Washington Post, and renovating a Mardi Gras fountain which cost $2.5 million. Corruption appears to have played a role, too. The Investor's Business Daily reported that "three top Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness officials" were indicted for obstructing an audit of the use of federal funds.

A column in The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette notes that the federal response to Katrina was faster than for other major hurricanes such as Hugo and Andrew, but Congress is not blameless. Spending on pet projects has ballooned, such as on the recently approved highway bill which included $24 billion in pork.

But blaming the federal government for the calamity is to condemn it for which it was never designed to do: Be a first responder to disasters. As Thomas Jefferson said, "Were we directed from Washington when to sow, and when to reap, we should soon want bread."

I could go on but why both.  The point is made here in the last one.  Bush provided more funds to LA (a) than any other state, and (b) than Clinton in the same timeframe.  The other point is that much of that money didn't even make its way to the levees which was by no mean Bush's fault.

Again, no funds which had been set aside for levees was subsequently diverted to the Iraq War.  And as for the National Guard being in Iraq, well, that's what their first reponsibility is ... defense, NOT disaster relief.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Glad I was able to give you

the chance to do your oppo research thing. Too bad you don't work for the GAO. You could put your talent to good use looking for fraud and waste to trim down on tax waste.

Yeah the waste and the fraud, as if team Bush hasn't lost money ever.

I just think your finger pointing arguments are ALWAYS counterproductive.

And always have the same bottom line.

You hate democrats and everything they stand for. Well so does Team Bush. They go out of their way to punish them at every opportunity with economic blackmail of various and sundry degrees.

The money never got to New Orleans, years later. It was unreleased. Some law that said the region had to come up with 10% before they got the fed funds. They waved it for Mississippi. Why because this crowd hate dems. Anything democrat they won't park there.

The stupid republican business model is bringing in outside workers to do the labor, and not giving the jobs to the locals. Idiotic beyond measure.

………… parent

And I didn't say they had nothing.

I just kept asking you what they had and I am still waiting for an answer with any substance to it.  If that looks like you ahve nothing, and it feels like you have nothing, well then ... you decide.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

I am too politically

astute to let you pin me down. All I can do is speak for myself.

The Dems are generally more interested in supporting people needs.

The R's are generally more intersted in their bank accounts.

Each serves its own function. Too bad the R's hate the dems and completely refuse to work with them on anything. Thanks Tom Delay you bastard.

………… parent

wow

GoRight proved that you spoke without anything to back you aside from some memory of some partisan lies that were easy to dissect... So after GoRight shows that 2+2 is not equal 5 like you tried to claim, you say you are too politically astute to ever admit mistakes. And then threw in some stupid partisan generalizations as if that somehow made up for the original nonsense.

Right. Keep on keeping on.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

can you prove this nonsense

Basically I would stop starving the beast. Government can work, and it should work. The R's have underfunded so many public institutions right down to basic things like public libraries to privatizing prisons. The Iraq war has been convenient that way. That is where the money for the levees went to... Iraq.

Considering the spending for all that stuff under Bush actually went up higher than under Clinton, even with the Iraq war.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Sure can!

………… parent

yeah

I saw how well you did in response to GoRight so you can skip trying to do the same for me.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

I really don't care

whether you buy it or not. It's just flat ass the way it is.

GoRight didn't prove a damn thing except that he is a partisan. Well so am I.

We can argue all day and all night whether Scooter Libby is guilty too. It won't change either of our minds.

I just say we agree to disagree. Think whatever you want. I really don't care.

Okay I care just a little bit.

………… parent

Well, lets see it then.

I used your own references in my discussion above which clearly demonstrated (a) that no funds which were allocated to the levees were later redirected to the Iraq war, (b) that Bush had allocated more funds to LA than any other state, and (c) that Bush had allocated more money to LA that Clinton had in the same amount of time.

By what measure does this not completely refute your claim?  Let's see the proof of which you speak.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

The skinny on Louisianna and misspent millions

ICF and the Road Home Project created specifically to deal with helping to rebuild Louisianna.

ICF is a Virgina based 'global solutions' company. The travel expenses for workers to rebuild homes in Louisiana was 19 million dollars.

Why is ICF so slow in implementing its program that offers 7 Billion in grants from the Federal Govt?

Responding to complaints about bloated travel expenses, and big fees going to lawyers in ICF, Michale Byrone said, "We are re-evaluating and we are making progress." Hmmmm..... sound familiar?

Under the contract, the company's lawyers make $375 an hour, significantly higher than private attorneys working on a state contract earn, said state Rep. J.P. Morrell (D-New Orleans). The contract also allocates $19 million for travel expenses without any requirement that the firm account for how it is spent, he said.

Travel expenses with no required accounting of costs paid for by Federal Money? Hmmmm...... Lawyers being paid more than fair market value of $375 an hour? Hmmmmm.....

ICF uses 22 subcontracters. The expectation was to be able to process 500 cases a day. The results have been starkly disappointing.

There are complaints that ICF a Republican oriented Virginia Based company has been given a blank check by the govt and is not living up to it's promise of relief.

Hmmmmm..........?

This is just one example of the sucks rotten eggs business model that Republicans value. Giving out contracts to "the right' companies. The companies are then given a budget which they summarily abuse. They use nice little catchphrases for statistical data, that makes them sound ever so busy, but the production of results is weak, even pathetic.

The other sucks rotten eggs aspect to this business model is the number of sub contracters being used, as in 22. This creates a situation where it is easy to hide accounting errors, easy to grant favors to special friends, and in the end the people of Louisiana get a little bit of help very late. The average grants has been much less than the homes were worth.

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The Allocated Money is Meaningless

Clinton produced results.

Republican sucks rotten eggs business model produces rotten eggs. The money is allocated and spent on things that don't work, are ineffective, poorly managed, poorly built.

Fema Buys Back Unlivable Trailors

Wonderous President Bush spends (wastes) billions to help (sicken) Louisianna residents.

How much money did they spend to build the trailors?
HOw much money will they spend buying back the trailors?

And why did they build trailors that were harmful to humans who breathe?

You can puff yourself up and say, see L00ky how much $$$$ Bush spent 'helping' the dislocated residents of New Orleans.

The fact is these trailors ARE unlivable due to toxic levels of formaldehyde. Residents AND their children, living in these trailors were spending an inordinate amount of time at the Dr.'s office. The kids were missing school, breaking out in rashes, having trouble breathing, etc. When they called the Hotline for Help, they got the roustabout. Fema officials that tried to help were fired. Fema officials that went ahead and followed the official line...... everything is fine, open the windows were not.

It was not until a police officer, went out and paid out of his own pocket to get the trailors tested (the govt refused) that it was discovered the the F-levels were off the scale for living breathing humans. The police officer did everything he could to "work with" the govt. The door kept slamming in his face. He finally told them to haul the toxic trailor off his property and went out and bought one that was not filled with poisonous F-Fumes.

Now Fema spent the money to have the trailors built, and is now having to recall them after a year, of risking the health of the children. This IS the sucks rotten eggs business model. This is incompetent negligance at best. Democratic oversight hearings exposed this sham, that is called L00KY here see how much money Bush spent (wasted) in New Orleans. Needless to say all contracts were given to Republicans...... because Democrats are evil.

This is what is wrong with your litte numbers game. You can look sh*t up and the numbers look good (see housing bubble) but the reality on the ground is the money was wasted, the results were not helpful, and it ends up costing so much more than it should have. Not only in wasted tax dollars, but all of the families who have been sickened from breathing formaldehyde fumes.

You see there is a reason that some of us don't trust these Bush style republicans. They are incompetent beauractic boobs, who can't seem to find there way out of a paper bag, but have no problem spending your tax dollars, giving 'feel good' sound bytes to the press, fooling people like you with $$$ spent.

Sucks rotten eggs business model. Yes there are many more stories like this about 'republican efficiency'. It's a joke. How do you make the govt look good while wasting tax payers money? Give a private contract to a Bush Republican who hates govt.

(I note there is a difference between Bush Republicans, and good old fashioned Republicans.)

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Their management is so incompetent...

...that to make up for the mismanagement, pork, and corruption, this regime has to spend a lot more than good Democrats to get equal value in results.  So true that this crowd spent more, but we got less back dollar for dollar than under Clinton.

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Man this is a truly desperate stretch...

Bush allocated the funds to LA as indicated.  From there the state and local Democrats squandered and misappropriated it.  How is that Bush's fault?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Posting the lyrics

to Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start the Fire " would have been much more economical. :-)

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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Spite Over Practicality

Seems to be your modus operandi. If its with a D it stinks. Everything R is okay.

That IS how the Republicans operate these days isn't it. These guys brought the hate for Democrats up when they elected those Texas politicians.

It wouldn't matter if a thousand childrens lives could be saved, if the parking lot was filled with democrats, and the outreach directer was a democrat, it's just too damn bad, no *good* republican would participate.

Gotcha.

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Don't know what you mean by this.

My post is a legitimate set of questions, albeit aggressively stated.  The Democrats have consistent railed against the Republicans and their policies in all of these areas in one form or another, right?

So, if the Democrats want to lead by example here then let's have the timetables for these things.  If you can convince me that you will really produce on the promises I might even vote for your candidate.  So tell me, where does the Democrat party stand in terms of having hard plans for which they are willing to be held accountable in each of these areas?  You agree that these are important areas where the Democrats have been seeking to make political hay, right?  OK, so show me what you've got then.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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The Dog Ate My Argument

I don't want to play this game with you. Maybe Taliaoc can play with you later....... :+)

Your end point is the dems shouln't ask for withdrawl timelines in Iraq right!

Why don't you just say that and give solid reasons why you think timelines in Iraq won't work.

Then maybe we could have a reasonable discussion.

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RE: The Dog Ate My Argument

This is not my point, although it IS part of my point ...

Your end point is the dems shouln't ask for withdrawl timelines in Iraq right!

My point is that the Democrats are complaining about the Republican policies in all of these areas.  OK, fine.  So tell me what you've got instead, maybe that will convince me to vote for your candidate or maybe it won't, but be prepared to be held every bit as accountable on these issues as you want to make the Republicans.

So, tell me what the Democrat plans and timelines are in these areas.  That's what you want from the Republicans, right?  So let me see yours.

Isn't that the best way to demonstrate how incompetent the Republicans really are?  By leading by example?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Did someone die

and make me head of the democrats?

I can't answer that question for the 'democrats'. Dude I don't have that kind of power.

I can only answer for myself.

How can democrats lead if they are not in power.

I saw an interview with Bob Novak (I admit I kind of like him) and one of his lessons learned was the gop floundering around headless, groping, and suddenly along comes Ronald Reagan, who took the bull by the horns in a sunny and optimistic fashion. After seeing Ronnie in action Novak came to the conclusion that Leadership Does Matter.

Dems are in an odd spot because many are not happy with Pelosi or Reid for not being more ahead of the game in terms of holding their caucus together.
41 Blue Dogs voted to shred the constitution r: Fisa. Ack! Ack! Ack! And give the executive MORE power. Ack!
I think a lot of air went out of the dems when they gave Alberto Gonzales more power, after the horrors of his Congressional testiomy. I know the little leader of my local dems just up and quit without notice, he was so furious about this.

On the bright side at least there are 180 er so dems that are willing to buck the status quo.

On the not so bright side, there are for real independents and Republicans who voted against their party to make a change in Iraq, and have been sorely disappointed by the dems. If the d's don't step up there is a core of some of their base that will just give up. Interesting that some republicans have been singing the praises of Obama, as fresh and the non-Hillaried D. I like him because I think he could potentially work across party lines to help actually get something changed in this country.

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I am not asking you to give you opinion ...

although even THAT would be better than "stop calling us hypocrits" just because I am asking you what your party's plans are.

Do you know what your party stands for on these issues?  If not, then why not?  Is it because you don't have time to follow them or because they don't actually have a plan?  The distinction is (or at least should be) important, correct?

My questions here are all directed at all of the blue bars, not just you.  You are getting the hits because you are the one posting!  (Thanks for painting that target on yourself!)

You get credit because you are at least willing to engage the question.  All of the other blue bars are being fairly quiet.  That could just be the fact that it is the weekend, but one DOES have to wonder...  :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I would

right away pull your income tax records and audit you. First off.

To make sure you have been paying your fair share of taxes to fund public education. :+)

I don't make policy. All I have is my opinion.

I think the Republican business model sucks rotten eggs.

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Well ...

do you have ANY idea what the positions of your party actually are?  :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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To change

the rotten eggs Republican business model.

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Umm, that's a bit vague.

To a Democrat this would be a platitude.  What do you mean by this?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Say Enron three times and spin

Then look at the sub-prime melt down. Unregulated lenders like loan sharks offer credit if you have blue eyes. Sell loans to another loan company. Sell that loan to another loan company. The loans can't be paid. The paper for the notes is rotten. So rotten that some banks froze US assest on fear that there was no money in the bank. Who pays. Well the central bank just injected billions into US liquidity. Where did that money come from you ask. The injected billions, could that have been US tax payer dollars bailing out crooked unregulated lenders?

Count the money like this. A thousand dollar loan (just a number) given to a couple with an unsound credit score. They pay off 10 dollars of the loan. The banks zealously count the full amount of the thousand in their assests fund. Move the money to lend to another company to start up a business. They use and count the money as if it is a thousand dollars, but it was really only ten. Oops the original debters got sick and lost their jobs. Where does the other $990 dollars come from? It's not there, but it has already been counted and spent or used. That is the rotten eggs business model.

But the inflated housing appraisals allowed people cheap credit to boost the economy in 02. It was the gilded age. The ripple effect of this unregulated loan scam is being felt around the world. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Republicans seem to think in the world of financial engineering anything goes. Rotten stinky eggs.

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Holy 800 foot tall strawman!

Wow!

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Umm, how can it be a strawman?

It doesn't make any claims.  It merely asks what the Democrat plans are in these areas...

Oh wait, I see what you mean, the meme that the Democrats even HAVE plans is an 800 foot strawman!  I guess I see your point, then, but I think that it is best to let the Democrats speak for themselves here.  I just want to get them on record BEFORE the next election (which happens to put a Democrat President in office) so that I can hold them accountable after it.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Implying that Democrats have EVER asked for or expected...

...perfect success from Republicans on anything similar to your 15 point list is an 800 3000 foot tall strawman. Democrats like me would have been satisfied with zero progress under a Bush regime, as long as things didn't deteriorate appreciably. They couldn't even manage that. Not even close.

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I see it more as

an either/or (false dichotomy) fallacy: either perfect governing or no criticism.

I avoided this discussion because it is ridiculous in its premise and I have little time to go through these exercises meant more as entertainment for GoRight than actual arguments.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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Again, how can asking for information

be EITHER a strawman or a false dichotomy?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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A question

can be a strawman or a false dichotomy. Who said it has to be a statement?

You asking: Give me a timetable for perfection or stop criticizing is a false dichotomy. From the wikipedia on False Dilemmas :

False choices are often put in the form of rhetorical questions, as is the case with this question by Ralph Nader.

"Which Party is on the offensive and which Party is on the defensive?" [5]

The choice is false, since any political party will take the offensive on some issues and take a defensive stance on other issues.

Likewise, the choices you offer are bifurcated in a ridiculously limited fashion.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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Two steps forward

one step back.

While Lutherans are allowing homosexuals to serve as pastors, a vet was denied a memorial service in Texas 24 hours prior to the scheduled starting time because he was gay.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

…………

I hope the latter gets a lot of play.

A lot of "gay issues" get marginalized because the mainstream public doesn't see how it pertains to their own interests. Let's see how people react to a military veteran getting screwed over, and if it wakes a few people up.

Sad, sad state of affairs. And he apparently worked at the church since his retirement, too.

Cheers to the Lutherans, at least. That's huge. Good on them.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Suing over SL sex

A programmer is mad that his copyrighted sex moves, er... sex moves code called SexGen Platinum, were copied and sold by another avatar. Must be some pretty good moves.

Enter real-life courts into virtual crimes. (Is it a virtual crime?)

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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A Lobbyist Group I Can Squarely Support

Ex DOJ Officials Fight Back

After months of scandal, firings and some testimony from Gonzales that many on Capitol Hill found wholly unsatisfying, these ex-Justice Department employees are taking a rare step and fighting back.

Former employees of the Civil Rights Division are channeling their workplace rage into lobbying force. The government lawyers say they were ignored, disrespected and kicked out by Bush appointees. The attorneys describe an increasingly partisan workplace, where political appointees intimidated career lawyers and undermined civil rights to push political agendas.

Loving this!

To those D's who might be feeling disenfranchsed right now, remember none of this would have happened if the Democrats hadn't come to power in Congress in 06!

But the tone of the current backlash is much more passionate, says former Voting Section Chief Joe Rich, who claims that the Bush administration totally stifled internal debate.

"We used to disagree vigorously, but I was never worried about getting fired," said Rich, who started at the department in 1968. "It wasn't until this administration that no debate was really allowed." He said at least 60 percent of the lawyers in the Voting Section have left since April 2005.

Rich left the department in 2005, after he says he was stripped of most of his responsibilities. He's since testified before both the Senate and House Judiciary committees.

Congress wasn't always receptive to the complaints of former Justice employees, said Rich, who alleges that the Republican-led Congress paid little attention to the legal exodus. But that dynamic changed when the Democrats took power.

…………

The U. N. should' ve been brought in to deal with Iraq in the

first place, not the United States or Europe. Let's hope that the U. N. will intervene in Iraq to hopefully fix the mess that the USA has made of that country, and that the United States will withdraw from Iraq.

…………

We tried. They weren't interested. n/t

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Freedom by Giuliani

What we don't see is that freedom is not a concept in which people can do anything they want, be anything they can be. Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.

Now I understand what Ender means when he discusses freedom.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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Jeaz, that doesn't sound so good!

He took the ice cream that is freedom and made it sound like lima beans :-p

I think that freedom does require that we "cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what [we] do", but that doesn't mean that freedom is "about" that.  It's like saying that because human life requires respiration, that life is about respiration.  

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Yes,

I wish someone could explain to me how a cross-dressing (nothing wrong with that in itself other than to show the hypocrisy in the GOP), pro-choice , economic regulating (regulations on adult businesses in NY), truth-stretching (being kind here), authoritarian (see above) is the GOP front-runner?

Oh, yeah. It is the last quality in the list, isn't it?

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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Not that I support any of the Republican candidates

as the stand now, but I view this position as just so much BS.

I avoided this discussion because it is ridiculous in its premise and I have little time to go through these exercises meant more as entertainment for Specter than actual arguments.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Cute

Too bad I have the sources to back up my arguments. Try to find an article that states:

the deteriorating infrastructure and mine accidents and such being, obviously of course, solely the fault of the Bush Administration

As a GoRight standard, I expect an exact phrase that states this. No indirect or implied statements. Good luck.

Now that is entertainment!

(P.S. I prefer big 'D' Democrats saying this, not just joe-schmoe blogger, since you discuss big 'D' Democrats as those pronouncing these unfair criticisms.)

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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I'm going to bed

Even if you happen to find an obscure reference claiming this (which I don't think you will), it still does not solve your false dichotomy.

Democrats expect 'better' than Bush for all those problems cited, not perfection.

And yes, I (along with the majority of the U.S. citizens as we will see in the next election) believe the Democrats can do better, not perfect.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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RE: Cute

Ha, like a true Democrat you want to have things both ways.  Loose standards for you and tight standards for me.  Unfortunately you already know that I don't play that way.  One standard for all, and since you all [ the linberals on this site, loosely speaking of course ] have adopted the "an implication is the same as a statement rule" [ refer to any of the Bush lied thereads for verification of this ] I hereby claim the same right.

Since it is clear that the Democrats believe that they can do SOO much better they are clearly implying perfection or near perfection of their policies on all of these points.  Further analysis is no longer needed in this case.

But, what does any of that have to do with the post to which you replied?  :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Since it is clear that the

Since it is clear that the Democrats believe that they can do SOO much better they are clearly implying perfection or near perfection of their policies on all of these points.  Further analysis is no longer needed in this case.

The difference being of course, that we drew a reasonable implication from your post.  On the other hand, let's examine the implication that you draw.

1. Democrats think Bush is utterly incompetent

2. Democrats think that they can do a lot better than Bush

3. This implies that Democrats think they can achieve perfect or near perfect results from their policies.

Clearly the implication drawn is far too strong.  It would be difficult to find a Democrat who has ever claimed or implied that near-perfect government is possible ever-- much less in the aftermath of Bush's destructive reign.

Just imagine a scale of 0 to 10, where 0 is total anarchy and chaos, and 10 is perfect government.  If Democrats would rate us as a 2 right now, does claiming or implying that we could do much better than a 2 imply that demorats think they can achieve a 10 or a near 10? Of course not.  A 5 or 6 would be a lot better than a 2. 

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well, that's not very reassuring, Skymutt.

If the GOP is a "2" by your standards, I still think you're overestimating by even thinking that Dems can achieve a 5 or 6....again by your standards.

I'm not quite sure what those standards are for you but I simply cannot see the Dems making a huge difference. They still have to deliberate and fight amongst themselves on legislation...not to mention fighting with the GOP.

Perhaps you could explain those standards.

For me, the GOP is about a 2.5 but not for the same reasons. I guess a 1 on foreign policy and maybe a 4 on domestic policy yields a "2.5" average.

Sadly I see the Dems getting maybe 3...maybe a 4 foreign policy and a 2 on domestic policy, so the average will still be 3 or 2.5. Not a great improvement.

The best I can hope for is that the pending recession hits just before the 2010 mid-terms and the sheeple "blame" the Dems and the GOP wins the House or Senate back. The ensuing gridlock could let us all get on with our lives and let the recession work its way out with minimal delay while Bernanke remembers his better instincts from before the time he was chariman and employs the right policies to mitigate the trainwreck he has no power to stop anymore.

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The 5 or 6 rating is not my rating...

...rather it is my view of what I think an average netroots Democrat rating would think that a reasonably competent Democrat would be able to achieve, given our current circumstance.  Personally, I think that the budget difficulties faced by the next administration coupled with the fallout of what will be a slow and painful withdrawal from Iraq will prevent the next administration from getting much above the 3.7-4.1 range...

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Rating...

If the GOP rates as a "2" on our 0-10 scale... then any party offering a "3" or better is an improvement.

GoRight... we are saying that Bush is incompetent in most areas, and in those areas where he is NOT incompetent, he is wrong-headed.

We're saying that Democrats can do better.

Again.... if Bush is a 2... then the Democrats only need to be a 3 to be worthy of our vote - not a 10.

I survived the Bush Administration

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OK, how much better?

Do you expect them to make mistakes, for example?

None of the others have been forthcoming with any actual specifics about what the Democrats intend to do in these areas if they get elected.  You seem to be fairly "in tune" with the world around you.  What is your sense of what you party intends to do in these areas?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Two answers

A) Funding priorities.

Basically, the #1 purpose of congress is to assess and assign funding priorities. We don't want to admit this, but we are voting for the guys who will tend to spend the money the way we want, and not the way we don't.

Republicans tend to get the votes of people who want the "funding priority bar" slid more towards military spending, corporate aid, and authoritarian areas (stronger police, intelligence-gathering, more prisons).

Democrats tend to get the votes of people who want the "funding priority bar" slid more towards domestic spending, health care, environmental regulation, and social programs.

This would lead many to feel that Democrats are more likely to spend a larger percentage on infrastructure improvements than the Republicans.

B) Hiring competent people.

The Bush administration has shown a knack for crony-ism, and hiring not the best person for the job, but the one who is a closer ally to the President. So you end up with "Heckuva-Job Brownie" as the head of FEMA, instead of someone competent in the area of disaster management - for example.

I believe that a Democratic administration would be more likely to hire people who have the resume appropriate for the job they hold. No more Christie Todd Whitman's as head of the EPA. No more Alberto Gonzalez's as Attorney General.

The #1 failure of the Bush administration is in the hiring of incompetent people to leadership positions.

We had a clue of this in Bush's past, as every private business he's had a leadership role in has been an abject failure.

Since I rate Bush as a "0" on a scale of 0 to 10 on his ability to hire the right people for the job, every Democratic candidate would do better.

So there doesn't need to be "specifics" for each area you listed... but a general sense of what are considered priorities.

The Democrats put a higher priority on disaster relief, infrastructure, protecting the environment, and health care than Republicans do. Therefore, they are better in every category you list.

Not perfect, but better. And admittedly, not better by a whole lot... but better nonetheless.

I survived the Bush Administration

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Ah, thanks for saving me the time...

And admittedly, not better by a whole lot

Because I was just going to keep asking you the obvious questions until your answers lead to this obvious conclusion.

Even so, I don't want to assume TOO much here.  So here are a couple of follow-ups:

  1. Are these responses just your general assessments or are they based on something substantive and specific which the Democrat leadership has pledged to do? 
  2. Will the Democrats put in place someone who is or is not going to make mistakes?
  3. Using Katrina as a reference point on your incompetence scale, what areas are the Democrats pledging to fix and get right after the next hurricane?  Do they have any specifics to offer along these lines?

So there doesn't need to be "specifics" for each area you listed... but a general sense of what are considered priorities.

With all due respect, they are my questions, so I guess I should get to determine when we have developed enough specificity to answer them, OK? 

Republicans tend to get the votes of people who want the "funding priority bar" slid more towards ... authoritarian areas (stronger police, intelligence-gathering, more prisons).

I am trying to discern the meaning implied by this particular statement.  Are you saying that Republican voters tend to be more interested in law and order, punishing criminals, and homeland security than say, Democrat voters?

And as such, can we assume that the Democrats will have a tendency to put forth a candidate who is weak in these areas in the sense that they would put a higher priority on the other issues that you mentioned for Democrat voters?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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ok

1. Are these responses just your general assessments or are they based on something substantive and specific which the Democrat leadership has pledged to do?

General assessments.

2. Will the Democrats put in place someone who is or is not going to make mistakes?

Being that the Democrats will "put in place" someone who is human, and since "to err is human", then the person they put in place will indeed make mistakes.

Just far fewer of them than Bush. ;-)

Using Katrina as a reference point on your incompetence scale, what areas are the Democrats pledging to fix and get right after the next hurricane?

Do they have any specifics to offer along these lines?

I don't work for any campaigns, so I don't know their specifics. Frankly, I don't need to know them.

I do have a sense of their priorities, however. And that is what matters to me.

With all due respect, they are my questions, so I guess I should get to determine when we have developed enough specificity to answer them, OK?

With all due respect back at ya, they're my answers, and I'll answer them with whatever specificity I deem to be "enough"... whether you accept the answers or not, is not my concern.

I am trying to discern the meaning implied by this particular statement. Are you saying that Republican voters tend to be more interested in law and order, punishing criminals, and homeland security than say, Democrat voters?

And as such, can we assume that the Democrats will have a tendency to put forth a candidate who is weak in these areas in the sense that they would put a higher priority on the other issues that you mentioned for Democrat voters?

Yes... Republican voters are more interested in having an authoritarian society.

As for Democrats putting forth a candidate who is "weak" in these areas... what you call a weakness, the libertarian (small "L") would call a strength.

I consider a "weak authoritarian" streak in a Presidential candidate to be a strength...... yes.

So... if you want an authoritarian government, you're best bet appears to be to vote Republican. While you still have the right to vote, that is. ;-)

I survived the Bush Administration

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RE: ok

Being that the Democrats will "put in place" someone who is human, and since "to err is human", then the person they put in place will indeed make mistakes.

Hmm.  OK, so you have no expectation that the Democrats can actually fix the problem of making mistakes in office.  This seems realistic to me, but it now lacks any substantive distinction from what we have today or have had in the past.  I guess all of the complaining was just grandstanding.

Just far fewer of them than Bush. ;-)

Interesting.  This seems to imply that Democrats can somehow predict how many mistakes one person will be making relative to another.  Do the Democrats have any plans to make the secrets of this capability known to the rest of us or is it related to some secret and supernatural ritual of some kind like reading tea leaves or tossing chicken bones?

Yes... Republican voters are more interested in having an authoritarian society.

And by authoritarian, given your examples above, you mean based on the concept of law and order, punishing criminals, and maintaining homeland security?

I consider a "weak authoritarian" streak in a Presidential candidate to be a strength...... yes.

So you personally favor someone that would prioritize fixing bridges or saving some salamander someplace over catching rapists and murderers, for example, or even over putting those people into jail?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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The distinction

in terms of appointing people is that Bush had a disappointing record of giving unqualified friends responsibilities they clearly couldn't handle.

It's not tough to predict that someone with insufficient experience in disaster relief, for example, will find it challenging to coordinate the federal response to a major hurricane.

I mean, it got to the point where the conservative base had to revolt to block Harriet Miers from being nominated as a SCJ!

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Exactly

Conservatives have had to revolt to block Harriet Miers, and have had to revolt to block Bush's immigration amnesty bill.

They treat Bush like the chronic failure that he is... they spend an awful lot of time trying to protect him from his own incompetence.

Karen Hughes made a career out of trying to keep Bush from stepping in it. She retired when the job became too tough.

I survived the Bush Administration

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RE: The distinction

You know, to this day I cannot understand why he nominated her.  It was obvious she wouldn't be confirmed but I never really knew why he did it.

Contrary to your perspectives, Bush is not stupid.  Everything he does, he does for a reason.  Even if oyu think it is Karl behind the scenes, there's always a reason.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I dunno why either

but I felt sorry that she had to go through that. It must have been hard on her.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Prime Mover's Two-Step F--- UP Detection Kit (tm)

Interesting. This seems to imply that Democrats can somehow predict how many mistakes one person will be making relative to another. Do the Democrats have any plans to make the secrets of this capability known to the rest of us or is it related to some secret and supernatural ritual of some kind like reading tea leaves or tossing chicken bones?

Yes.. there is a way to predict how many mistakes one person will make relative to another. It is "Prime Mover's Two-Step F--- Up Detection Kit":

1. Review the past behavior of an individual.
2. If the individual had a history of making poor choices and screwing up, they are likely to continue making poor choices and screwing up.

For example:

Person A is a former alcoholic, former cocaine-abuser, former failed businessman, and former poor student

Person B has no history of substance abuse or addiction, has never run a business into the ground, and was an exemplary student

My proven method says that Person A is more likely to be a f--- up in future endeavors than Person B!

Amazing!

GW Bush, as a candidate for President in 2000, was self-described as someone who was a slacker and addict who didn't grow up until after he reached 40.

He was practically screaming at us: "I will make more mistakes than the other guy. It is my nature. But vote for me anyway, because one of the mistakes I won't make is to receive oral sex from an intern at work."

The best part about it.... there is nothing "secret" to my method!

Try it yourself!

Bush was a collossal f***-up in every endeavor he was involved in throughout his entire life. Why did anyone expect anything different once he was elected President?

So... yes... I can say with some amount of certainty, that any of the top-tier Democratic candidates will make less mistakes than GW Bush. They couldn't help but make less.

No tea leaves required.

So you personally favor someone that would prioritize fixing bridges or saving some salamander someplace over catching rapists and murderers, for example, or even over putting those people into jail?

I personally favor treating the cause of the problem (poverty, lack of education) rather than the symptoms.

Republicans want to treat the symptoms by building more jails and paying for more law enforcement.

Democrats want to treat the disease by eliminating the root causes of the crimes in the first place.

So again... yes... I'm more interested in a candidate that is committed to ridding the world of murder and rape over one who is committed to ridding the world of murderers and rapists.

The Republican approach is the equivalent of pulling weeds without getting to the roots. They'll just be back in another growing cycle (generation), usually worse than ever.

We now have more prisons per capita, and a greater percentage of our populace behind bars that at any time in our nation's history. How has that worked out so far? Has murder and rape been eradicated?

You can prioritize your efforts on treating the symptoms (Republicans) or the root causes (Democrats).

I survived the Bush Administration

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Well, if going in you already admit that you

can't solve the problem then why should I consider voting for your candidate?  You are basically saying, look, we know we're a bunch of incompetent losers but we're just not as bad as the incompetent losers you are already voting for, right?  Oh, and in return we'll give you a bunch of crap legistlation that you don't want.  Somehow I don't find this appeal enticing enough to switch.

Even so, I'll ask you again, what ARE your actual policy proposals for these things.  Maybe I'm just being too harsh since I have no idea what they are.  Please, what is your party offering the country here?

I bet the Libertarians think that they can actually SOLVE the problems.  Maybe I should consider them?

[ Side note.  I would like to vote Libertarian, actually, but the current two party system sort of forces me to vote and support Republicans as the most effective means of keeping the Democrats out. ]

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

To dream the impossible dream.....

Keep on fighting those windmills.

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Based on the totality of your posts

In have to say that the Libertarian Party would disappoint you more than they would make you happy.

As a libertarian, I must say that I find the Libertarian Party a bit off putting.

They are too rigid and dogmatic and lose their would-be moderate members (like me) and become irrelevant.

That's not to say I wouldn't prefer them. I probably would because the status quo system sucks. But they will not be taken seriously until they loosen up a bit and steal voters from the GOP, Dems and sympathetic independents.

Influencing the system with a platform based on some core reforms would do them much more good than the uncompromising doctrinaire approach they hold to steadfastly.

………… parent

Which ought to be a lesson to the major parties

Pure ideological platforms turn would-be-allies away from political parties.  

………… parent

Translation: you got nothin

Giuliani's dark vision of freedom must be colored by his personal life, where any "freedom" he personally has seems to be subject to the authority of his overbearing, controlling, and manipulative (third) wife. (if you believe the Vanity Fair article... )

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Markos and Ford on Meet the Press

Both of them are kind of talking past each other (surprise) and neither are really producing much evidence to back up their points. Biggests shots landed: Markos says DLC leader drafted Bush tax cuts, Ford says life under Clinton was peachy. Markos and Ford pledge to go to the other one's conference.

Ford tries to claim Tester as DLC, Markos not pleased. Oh snap, Markos references Ford on Fox and Ford desparately (IMO) says something along the lines of "but your site posts awful things about Jewish Americans." Wow, I just lost some respect for Ford -- (a) guilt by association is always lame, particularly so when you're discussing a massive blog, but dKos is actually pretty good about calling out anti-semitism (certainly compared to some other leftist sites) and (b) Jake Ford ran a frankly horrible and thankfully losing campaign against Cohen in 2006 and AFAIK Harold never condemned the smears on Cohen.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

…………

Blogofascists unite :)

It hasn't aired yet for me. I am waiting anxiously to see my 'Dear Blogofascist Leader" on the TeeVee. I dasn't make a move without his approval.

Markos is supposed to be on the Colbert report this week, where he expects to have Stephen hand him his a**. That should be fun.

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we got it on

at 10:30 EST... so in about 8 mins.

Dkos is better than some other leftist sites who screech about Zionism quite a lot, mostly by the virtue of having more people and therefor more moderates who are offended by the anti-semitic trash.

Not sure if I will watch this.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Oops

Hope I didn't spoil the surprise for you and MissL =)

Everyone should be on East Coast time... says this elitist liberal.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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I am on

East Coast time... but just different time for the show here.

Markos is lying through his teeth already - Blaming DLC for cutting the taxes and therefor by default crumbling the bridges through not funding the bridges. Maybe the ass***e should check the Transportation dept budgets before talking out of his ass and claiming that those budgets were affected.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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DLC is a dinosaur

and a useless flailing appendage of the past.

The head of the DLC was a Bush promoting republican, as in the DLC isn't really a democratic organization. Get it? Sheeps in wolves clothing.

Plus the DLC did nothing, as in nothing to promote building and maintaining a democratic grassroots infrastructure.

The good news..... you can write a dairy and adress him directly in the open democratic forum that is DailyKos.

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basically

both of them lie but Markos lies more. Markos slimed DLC somehow blaming them for the bridge collapse. He then revised his hatred of Clinton and claimed that 9% Hillary got was huge when you consider millions of people on dkos. Ok, there are no millions of people and the 9% was just over a 1,000 votes in the dkos internet poll.

Ford misrepresented some of the DLC stuff and throwing out the "jewish-american" bit was a bit desperate.

What bugs me is that it is the Markos type of democrats who the Dem leaders are pandering to now. And Markos represents the leftist mob that does not care about living in the real world and dealing with the real issues. Democrats will have to figure it out on their own.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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Markos himself is more conservative than is dKos

Agree that the low support for Clinton on dKos is not representative of Democrats as a whole, and agree that trying to tie in the bridges smacks of opportunism. Overall, though, I personally found Ford less convincing, just because his whole "we need to work together" bit doesn't really match what he and the DLC have been doing and saying elsewhere.

Also, it's a bit rich for the only Democratic candidate for Senate who *lost* a competitive race in 2006 to lecture on how to win.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Ford

is a walking talking platitude. A nice recipe for losing elections.

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Platitude?

Is that a Platypus with attitude?

;-)

I survived the Bush Administration

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Actually, I sort of like Ford. n/t

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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The mob talk again

Speaking of living in the real world, you can't just keep using sh*t, troops, bridges, roads, without somehow paying for them. I don't think it is terribly radical to expect that a government should be able to pay for the military without off budget tricks, and pay for to maintain our infrastructure.

Republicans want to cut taxes in a time of *war*, while begging from more money on the US credit card to support the $200, 000 a minute defense spending habit.

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$200,000 a minute just in Iraq...

For total defense, you're looking at more like $1.4 million a minute.  But who's counting?

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not enough people apparently

The failure to realize how much we spend on military/related spending compared with how much is actually needed to provide for our national defense to still leave us with the strongest and most imposing military in the world, BY FAR, is a failure of logic.

Military and military related spending is almost one TRILLION dollars. Yes. That's the regular, budget + supplementals + military spending that is masked in other departments like the DoEnergy among others.

Mind boggling.

And what though process do most people go thru to dismiss seriously questioning it?

We need to defend ourselves.

We're WAAAAAAAAY beyond the level of self defense. We're also way beyond the level of adequately protecting our interests.

We allow so much to be spent on our behalf and have become slaves of fear and big-brother-"it's for your protection" nonsense.

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It's more than just nonsense

it's irrational insanity that the Pentagon has so much power over our spending priorities. Who knows what they are up to behind those walls.

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Such is the world we create

when WE abdicate our lives to the whims of government.

It's like an EX that always leaves you dissatisfied and frustrated.....but you always forget why and go back for more.

HURT ME.

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That is sort of like

saying such is the world you create when you choose to run your farm by necessarily taking out a loan from the bank.

You abdicate your life to the bank.

If the bankers have integritiy they won't stack the deck and change the rules of the game in midstream. If the bankers help you, you can help them, by bringing money into the community in commerce.

If the bankers don't have integrity they will spend your money unwisely on covert and failed investments, charge you higher interest for their mistakes, and then take away your farm.

The dreamy ideal is that in democracy you don't abdicate your life to the govt, you participate. Democracy should not be a spectator sport. We should all be Jessee James.

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Not really.

A bank loan is a voluntary private contract between two parties.

Banks are competing for business. It's not a question of integrity. They'll lose business if attempt to swindle customers while other banks do not.

If one bank screws up and charges a higher interest rate than others banks, people will take their loan elsewhere.

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Banking is voluntary?

Try running a business without a loan.
Try buying a house without a loan.
Try buying a car without a loan.

(Try running a country without a government.)

Banks are competeing for business
(Politicians are competing for your votes).

Banks will lose business if they are found out to be swindlers.
(Politicians will not be re-elected if they are found out to be swindlers.)

If all banks screw up buy bad sub-prime loans, re-package them, and sell them off again, ad infinitium, and find out the first transaction was a bad deal, the the tax payers (central bank) bails them out.

See: Bush, Neil and the Silverado Savings and Loan Scandal

In the United States, S&Ls were tightly regulated until the 1980s. For example, there was a ceiling on the interest rates they could offer to depositors.

The Savings and Loan crisis of the 1980s was a wave of savings and loan association failures in the United States in which over 1,000 savings and loan institutions failed in "the largest and costliest venture in public misfeasance, malfeasance and larceny of all time."[1] The ultimate cost of the crisis is estimated to have totaled around USD$150 billion, about $125 billion of which was consequently and directly subsidized by the U.S. government, which contributed to the large budget deficits

Note the instant the S&L was deregulated was the time when backdoor deals began.

Neil Bush was director of Silverado Savings and Loan when the institution collapsed in 1988, costing taxpayers $1.6 billion

If the banks screw up the tax payers pay the price.
If politicians screw up we can kick them out of office.

Private contracts need to be open, fair and regulated fairly which is a function of good government.

It helps ensure that tax payers don't get taken to the cleaners by bad business deals, like the Silverado S&L collapse, who the tax payers had to bail out, and now the sub-prime crises, which likely the tax payers will have to pay the price. See Friday's injection of 60 Billion to ease market jitters. Where do you think that money came from?

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now respond to my post and what I really said

without all the misdirection and hyperbole.

I'm not biting.

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What did you really say?

The govt is bad.

I say that govt can be good.

Unregulated banking leads to corruption. We need banks.

Unregulated govt leads to corruption. We need govt.

You are blaming the govt for everything. Where is your sense of personal responsibility? Did the dog eat it?

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It's easy to see to what I really said. Just

read what I really wrote.

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Super

The end of another discussion we almost had.

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All you have to do is

respond to WHAT I WROTE.

Believe me, I watch you all talk past each other all the time, saying things the other didn't say, claiming things the other didn't claim and so on.

If some super-intelligent software troll rated you guys for misrepresenting and creating straw men when responding to others, there'd be almost nobody here to talk to.

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Oh John

Your comment belongs in the Swords Crossed Hall of Fame.

It is so true.

But yet, we keep on talking. Masochists, all.

"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."  --R. Heinlein

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What did you say?

I went right past me.

I was too busy setting GoRight's strawmen on fire.

;-)

I survived the Bush Administration

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:)

Now, I KNOW you couldn't be including little ol' me in this:

Believe me, I watch you all talk past each other all the time, saying things the other didn't say, claiming things the other didn't claim and so on.

Because I would NEVER do such a thing, on purpose.  Although I suspect that missliberties does.

[ 98.75% Joking. ]

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I'm sorry

could you rephrase that for me. It flew right past me. What did you actually mean by the phrase 'on purpose'.

I need that claim supported with links and a dictionary definition.

When we can reach concensus on that, you can continue talking past me on another topic.

Oh the humanity!

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John THIS is why

my answer to your question is not the narrow one and is filled with what you call hyperbole, and what I call realistic consequences and the ripple effect.

When You speak of limited govt, by limiting regulations on what you say are private contracts between two parties, unless someone is watching closely to make sure that all transactions are above board and follow guidelines or rules
it has

This Kind of Potential to Unsettle the World Markets

You say we need limited unregulated govt and free and unregulated markets.

Well here is the result. And it is not unrelated to the previously linked Silverado Savings and Loan Scandal that Neil Bush was involved in.

American homeowner woes felt world over
Latest financial crisis shows interconnected nature of U.S. economy

Read the linked article. This sub-prime mess, that was due in part to unregulated loan practices is not small potatoes. It isn't just a little story.

The point is the government abdicated its responsibilities to the people by not using standards or regulations. The people didn't abdicate their responsibilities, the government did. Good government requires that a modicum of business standards be set, so that we don't have a world wide credit crises. If the world is jittery than this loan scandal doesn't stem from just a few bad transactions.

Read the linked article. It isn't hyperbole and it isn't my imagination.

There are times when a broader view of consequences is necessary. With proper regulation this sub prime crises would not have been allowed to spiral out of control.

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Mindnumbing contradictions.......! Please watch this video

Dick Cheney on Iraq

This leaves me speechless.

An interview with Dick Cheney at the AEI in 1994 discussing why going into Baghdad after the first Iraq War would be a bad idea.

I have to say he was right then, and is wrong now.

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RE: Mindnumbing contradictions.......! Please watch this video

What's mind numbing is that you don't think anything can change in 10 years.  I guess the middle east is this static unchanging place to you.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Tell me what changed.

in 10 years that made the pre-emptive invasion of Iraq that we had to divert our resources from Afganistan to Iraq.

What?

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9/11 n/t

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Please explain.

how Iraq was responsible for 9/11.

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They weren't, I never said they were. n/t

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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As usual you make no sense.

Then why are we in Iraq as a response to 9/11??????????????????????????

Why didn't we invade Canada, where sandbox says Islamofascist are roaming freely.

Is there something I am missing. I would like to understand why you think it was justified to invade Iraq as a response to 9/11.

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Canada wasn't close to operationalizing a relationship

with al Qaeda.  Iraq was.  The threat of a combination of Iraq's WMD knowledge and experience with al Qaeda's proven capability to attack us at home on 9/11 changed the status quo.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Ummmm....

Iraq had no WMD.

And Saddam hated bin Laden.

There was no AQI in Iraq pre-9/11.

But conveniently there is now.

OH well. So it goes. La de dah.

I am sure Cheney could have forced intelligence to find one unstable human in Canada and call him a viscious evil shoe bomber with links to bin Laden. IN fact I think I recall a news story about Bush 41 and bin Laden taking a little visit to Canada in 1993. Yeah so Cananda had links to al Queda. Bin Laden was in country.

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RE: Ummmm....

As far as we knew at the time, Iraq DID have WMD.  Even if they didn't, which we still don't know since they may have been moved, they DID have WMD knowledge and experience that we could not allow to fall into the hands of al Qaeda.

Read the 9/11 report for details on on-going contacts between al Qaeda and Iraq over multiple years.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I have heard all of the talkings points GR

By the whiff of possibility of connection, we could have just as easily made a case to invade Canada.

I own the 9/11 report. I am still waiting for part II which was never released.

Hmmmmm....... I wonder why.

I realize there are a few folks left who buy into this, and now know that you are one of them.

Let me draw a distinction between the two of us. I don't believe this. I never bought into this, and I still don't buy into it. There was just too much evidence to the contrary.

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Not hardly.

we could have just as easily made a case to invade Canada.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Yes hardly Cheney's got the power

and remember sandbox says there are islamofascists roaming freely in Canada.

We are in grave danger from our neighbor to the North. It is time to impose sanctions on Canada, and get them to stop taking in moslem immigrants from Islamofascist al Queda land. The enemy is real. The enemy is cunning. The enemy lurks in the shadows. Beware Canada is harboring the enemy.

(some snark involved)

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Re: Canada

Canada wasn't close to operationalizing a relationship with al Qaeda. Iraq was.

B-U-L-L-*-*-*-T

There was not, and is not a single shred of credible evidence that Iraq was close to "operationalizing a relationship with al Qaeda".

OBL and Saddam were mortal enemies. OBL loathed the secular nature of Saddam's government, and Saddam feared and hated the possible insurgencies spurred by groups like al Qaeda.

Saddam, a secular sunni. OBL, a strict sharia-law wahabist.

They hated each other even more than either one hated us.

This post by you, GoRight, is the most unadulterated bull***t spin you have ever posted.

No... "spin" is not the correct term. It is an outright lie.

I survived the Bush Administration

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RE: Re: Canada

Read the 9/11 report.  It documents multiple contacts with interest on collaboration from both sides over many years.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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OBL's Wish List

If you would have made a list in 2002 of the governments in the middle east that OBL wanted overthrown, in his "goal" of a single, strictly islamic state, they would have been:

(his reasons in parentheses)

1. Israel (obvious)

2. Iraq (secular society and government, didn't practice Sharia law, murdered hundreds of thousands of Shia dissenters)

3. Pakistan (secular government)

4. Turkey (secular government)

5. Saudi Arabia (corrupt government)

6. Egypt (mostly-secular government)

7. Jordan (friendly with the west)

Basically, the United States performed OBL's dirty work for him. When we toppled Saddam's government, there was much celebration in the caves along the Afghan/Pakistan border.

The "multiple contacts with interest on collaboration" in Iraq were not in Saddam's government.

I did read the 9/11 report. You are misrepresenting the facts.

Saddam was a bad man, and he may have had WMDs...

....but he had no connection with al Qaeda at all, and in fact, considered them a threat to himself and his government.

I survived the Bush Administration

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No spoiling

DailyKos is funny today.

There are several dairies in response to Harold Ford's anti-Semitic remark that are humorous.

Here's one.

Hi All. Jew Here

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Bush planning to send thousands more troops into Iraq

As reported in the Telegraph... my diary on DK has the skinny.  Basically, it appears that the Brits have already mentally withdrawn from their duties in Basra and southern Iraq, and you know who is going to have to pick up the slack.

…………

It's not just me anymore!

While surfing about I ran accross an article in NewsBusters which is a summary of an Op Ed by a Newsweek Editer that skews Newsweek's recent article on the Great Global Warming Hoax .

The NewsBuster's article provides a reasonable summary of the interesting parts of the Op Ed from a conservative POV.

I only want to discuss my somewhat recent revelation concerning the existence of AGW Science Nazi's (and here).  I still owe knocienz a reply here.

The thing that caught my eye was the following excerpt from the Newsweek Editors Article:

But the overriding reality seems almost un-American: we simply don't have a solution for this problem. As we debate it, journalists should resist the temptation to portray global warming as a morality taleas NEWSWEEK did—in which anyone who questions its gravity or proposed solutions may be ridiculed as a fool, a crank or an industry stooge. Dissent is, or should be, the lifeblood of a free society.

Sound familiar?  This is basically the observation that what I have termed AGW Science Nazis are doing what I have been claiming.  :)

And how about that last line?  Sound familiar blue bars?  Sort of reminds me of the meme that dissent is the most Patriotic thing around.  While this topic is about science and not politics, dissent (i.e. critical review) constitutes one of the most fundamental tenants of science, right?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

…………

Did you read

the examples of corruption in New Orleans. (sucks rotten eggs business methods)

As for your science stuff. Congratulations.

I thought you and the oil company billionaires against global warming were alone in your science project.

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Dissent

on the solutions is absolutely essential, and is in fact pretty prevelant from my POV. It's a cost/benefit analysis, and as discussed in Purpleface's excellent diary on the subject we need to decide what costs are acceptable to us as a society.

Dissent on the existence of the problem is almost non-existent in scientific circles, but there is still debate on some political blogs as to whether global warming even exists.

Liberals who don't believe al Qaeda exists shouldn't get a hand in shaping our foreign policy. Conservatives who don't believe global warming exists shouldn't get a hand in shaping our energy policy. Informed dissent is always great, on any topic.

P.S. I've always said that scientists should avoid meddling in policy and politicians should avoid meddling in science. There's too much of both in the global warming debate.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Should I not be able to question any part of the

existing scientific dogma, even that within the Global Warming debate?

Is that not exactly what Einstein did with his theory of relativity?  Challenge the whole foundation of the Newtonian model?  Why wasn't he ridiculed as a quack, a fraud, and a heritic?  (Assuming he wasn't but probably he had his detractors at the time.)

Now I'm not claiming that this climate change stuff is of this same caliber, but it does illustrate that true science is supposed to accept challenges at all levels without resorting to personal attacks.  Why is AGW different in your blue bar minds?

And this brings up another point.  One related to funding the contrarians.  Is someone automatically an industry hack just because they accepted funding from industry?

Suppose that the oil industry felt threatened by AGW, they would quite understandably want to insure that all of the scientific bases had been covered, correct?  Especially those that would support their positions just as you all have stated.

Now, lets say that there are already contrarian scientists who are doing work that might have promise for supporting the oil industry's position.  Does the oil industry deciding to send some funding their way turn them into lying frauds by definition?

I say it doesn't.  So how do we tell when this has occured?  Well if the scientist in question had been supporting AGW and after accepting funding they turned into opponents thereof, that might be some annecdotal evidence towards your claim but would still not be conclusive evidence to that effect.

Do any of you who are pushing the deniers meme have any evidence of such a shift in position among those people that you consider to be the most prominent and influential deniers?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I didn't think he was, actually,

but I don't know much about that history. Quantum mechanics was widely distrusted (including, famously, by Einstein in part). But I think the difference here is that most (not all) of the opposition to AGW comes from either (a) non-scientists or (b) scientists expert in other areas.

With respect to funding, it's an indicator for me, not an automatic bar to credibility. If a scientist is funded by oil companies and also conducts top-level research, is published in respected journals, and doesn't fit his findings to suit the preferences of his funders, I'd certainly accept his input.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Tiger wins!

His 13th major. A solid final round holds off challenges from Woody Austin and Ernie Els.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

…………

Good question

Commenting on the video of Cheney in 1994 discussing the difficulties in occupying Iraq, Balko asks a good question: What exactly did change between 1994 and 2003 that made Cheney change his mind about Iraq's inevitable quagmirish characteristics?

Never mind whether we should have invaded or not -- why were the complications that followed our easy military takedown apparently unforeseeable under GWB when they were so obvious to Cheney defending GHWB's decision to stop short a decade earlier?

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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That is the Trillion Dollar Question

I wonder if we will ever really know the answer.

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