RBcsTB Really appreciate you sharing this article.Really looking forward to read more. Really Great.
My brother is, although he doesn't eat much in the way of vegetables so his diet is terrible.
I don't eat much beef or pork because I don't like how heavy/unhealthy they are. Eat a lot of fowl and some fish.
Human beings are omnivores by nature and I find nothing immoral about that. We generally do better with some amount of meat in our diet (particularly when young and growing) because the complex proteins are very useful.
Now that said I do think that a number of modern farming techniques are unacceptably cruel and I generally support changing those, even if it means higher prices at the grocery store. For instance i do not approve of keeping chickens in tiny cages unable to move, or the production methods of Foie Gras and Veal. Those practices are inhumane as I see it, really no different than drowning kittens or setting a dog on fire.
Edit- if anything should be banned it's the abomination known as Thai food. That stuff is vile. Any culture that mixes curry and milk together fails the most basic aptitude test required to be considered for having a cuisine.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
"inhumane stuff" because it is not on my radar of important issues. But I would condone a mild push towards less cruelty in the business. As long as it's non-animal rights activists pushing for it. I can't stand animal rights activists and wouldn't support a single thing they do.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
stuff. This is the equivalent to 'I would be for getting rid of slavery if it's non-abolitionists pushing for it' or ' I would be for giving women the vote if it wasn't the suffragettes pushing for it.'
By definition, less cruelty against animals is animal rights.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
are fairly close to "home grown terrorists" in my view. It's no wonder FBI is keeping track of them. Why would I support them?
The problem with your comparisons is that "Animal Rights" issue is nowhere near the issues of Slavery and Women's Rights in importance. The problems are very disproportionate to the tactics employed to try to correct them.
They come in all shapes and sizes and glue themselves to various different causes, both left and right.
Fanatics on the left and fanatics on the right.
What we should be concerned about is fanatics that want to institute the moral judgements into law.
I'm only half stupid
it is fanatics. But it is also a fanatic to regular concerned activist ratio. The problem with certain movements like the Animal Rights movement is that the ratio of fanatics to non-fanatics is entirely too high.
same problem in other fanatical movements as well, many of them religous.
What are these many religious fanatical movements? Do they use terrorist tactics like the Animal Rights movement?
Aside from some abortion opponent nuts who threaten violence what are the "many religious fanatical movements" comparable?
Do they use terrorist tactics like the Animal Rights movement?
what terrorist tactics are those?
The FBI put Tre Arrow on their most wanted list. Think about for a minute. The man had never committed murder, nor assault, nor rape. Nor had he attempted any of those crimes. He had caused property damage to some logging companies. Somehow that crime was worse than the thousands of murderers and rapists that are in this country.
That fact alone tells you everything you need to know about the priorities of the FBI.
How many people have the ALF and the ELF combined killed? Zero. Compare this to the other various active US terrorism groups (Sheriff's Posse Comitatus, KKK, Al-fuqra, Jewish Defense League, American Front, Army of God, Aryan nations, Hammerskin nation). They all have murders or attempted murders to their names.
The listing of the ELF and ALF as terrorist groups much less the top domestic terrorist threats is the clearest possible sign that your life means nothing to the government when compared with corporate profit margins.
so little time.
Let me just say that 'What should we eat?' is a topic of immense interest to me at the moment. I am basing 1/3 of my composition class on this topic alone (it goes into issues of affordability, locaolization/globalization, free-trade, GMOs, organic farming, eating disorders, obesity, immigration, subsidies, energy usage, water usage, schools and diets, and advertising). Needless to say, it isn't just a bunch of 'New-Age' crap. These topics are extremely important to today's society.
I find your diary a rather shallow approach to the topic. It is 80% name calling and baseless opinion. I can only find two small sections that i might call 'reasoning' and those are easily refuted. Hopefully, I can find the time in the next week to post a full diary reply to discuss 'the importance of the issue' later.
On to your points above:
1) The terrorist issue. First off, you are only discussing the most fringe of groups and not the vast majority of animal rights activists. That is like me judging Christians on the fringe groups like cults and nuts like Timothy McVeigh.
Secondly, terrorism is based on a means to an end, and not the end itself (the way you accomplish your goals rather than the goal itself). So, the 'importance of the issue' does not come into play with my analogy (just the means). As Tlaloc said, this label is in regards to some animal rights groups destroying property (not taking lives).
Now I only want to discuss the means (and not the end goals) regarding animal rights 'terrorism' and what the abolitionists did. Both 'technically' violated property (slaves were property in the South).
Speeches by abolitionists often stirred emotions to the point of slave rebellions leading to murder and further destruction of property (buildings burned, etc).
Now mind you this was all technically illegal, making the actions between the abolitionists and animal rights equal (again, I am discussing means and not ends). They were similar except the abolitionists went further.
Would you off-hand dismiss abolitionists due to their activities to end slavery or would you look at 'the issue' first?
Secondly, as pico noted, this issue will become one of the biggest in upcoming years with increased competition for food, space, and resources especially with regards to the upcoming prosperous nations, China and India.
*Just a note to say that I am currently an omnivore, but I was a vegetarian for about two years and deeply respect those who choose it. I hope one day to have the self-discipline to become one again.
Just the mere mention of organically grown stuff annoys me, even though I have no problem eating the stuff.
I buy organic milk now all the time. It's more expensive but I'd rather not be drinking lots of cow hormones.
Hormones in milk, BTW, have been mentioned as a cause of the early sexual maturation of children.
Regarding meat -- I just got home from the store where I bought a T-bone steak. Yum.
Hunters who don't bother to have the deer they shot butchered piss me off. There are organizations that will take the deer and process it and deliver it to food banks.
qui tacet consentire
I try to limit my fat and cholesterol intake but that's about it on the paying attention front. Of course I watch for the more egregious problems when reported in the news and act accordingly (if something is truly poisonous) but otherwise not a big deal.
Also in the quote you mention I do say that I eat organic stuff - whenever I happen to be in a place that only serves that. :)
tuna, shark or swordfish? if you do, you might as well suck on a thermometer.
rarely and mostly in sushi.
If it's at the grocery store I just take my chances. If it's on special, in the shopping cart it goes. I've gotten this far and am perfectly healthy AFAIK and feel fine. Several years back, I lived with friends of mine who were vegetarians, and have enjoyed many vegetarian/vegan meals. I'm not a food-centric person and could happily give up meat without missing it all that much, i think.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
I was a strict vegetarian for several years, mainly for what I would call "environmental" reasons. It takes far less of the world's resources to eat lower on the food chain.
Eventually I realized that it is just not in my nature to be a "strict" anything. I still almost never cook meat for myself, but if I am a guest at someone else's house I will eat whatever they give me, and if I am at a restaurant I will get whatever looks tasty. (I recently tried wild boar for the first time and was not disappointed. Yum!)
On those rare occasions when I do prepare meat for myself, I do go out of my way to find something that is organic, free-range, humanely-raised, etc. I am more than willing to pay the extra money for that, for two reasons. One, I believe it is a lot better for you, healthwise, and two, that is what capitalism is all about - use your money to encourage the practices that you believe in. I also buy organic veggies as often as I can, except when places like Stop & Shop enfuriatingly wrap all their organic produce in extra layers of plastic. Talk about defeating the purpose of having a lower impact on the environment. Yeesh!
I do agree with Bill Maher that Americans are being slowly poisined by the food they eat. I think the fact that we are slipping in world rank of longevity has far more to do with our diet than our health care system.
I also have a vague feeling that it is a bad thing that people just don't know where there food comes from. I think it is fair to say that your relationship with food is the most important relationship in your life. The more you know about it, the better off you are.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Right now I eat too many hamburgers and I don't always bother to seek out the free-range meat -- I'm working on it.
I think your approach is the right balance to strike.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
are yummy. Squash, cabbage (fresh, cooked, and kraut), collards (underappreciated), brussels sprouts, okra (in soup, can't handle the slime), butter beans, tomatoes (with balsamic and basil oooo), corn on the cob (baked not boiled), beets, onions, eggplant, artichokes, roasted garlic, celery (tried it sauteed?), asparagus, and of course the usual stuff.
Meat? Love it. Prefer the filet over the t-bone, and medium-rare, please. Try some home-style pork carnitas at your local taqueria if you have a chance. Yum. Buffalo is excellent too. Middle-eastern style lamb is choice, melts in your mouth.
Telling people what to eat is impolite and crass, if you ask me, as is commenting upon their choices.
Sound like you have a good bead on some vegetables there. My favorites of course are collards, okra, yams, stewed tomatoes & corn, and most bean and peas... As far as those others like beets, asparagus, Brussels sprouts, and squash, not so much.
I have cut down my pork intake (it used to be a large part of my meal). If it came down to it, I could get rid of that from my diet. I still do eat beef though, but the majority of my meat intake is chicken, fish, and turkey. I think it's still OK to eat meat, especially for kids--the proteins they get from eating it is pretty tough to develop in pill form.
As for milk, I don't drink it like I used to, but I do notice that a lot of major companies are moving away from milk with bovine. (Kroger, Safeway, Trader Joe's, to name a few).
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Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I remember trying that stuff and it took a lot for me to keep it down! :)
Not a big fan of the mushed up form myself, which I am guessing is what you tried. Chunks in a stew on the other hand, are great. And sweet potato fries are awesome. (I know there is some sort of difference between yams and sweet potatoes, but they are pretty interchangeable as far as I am concerned.)
I am pretty big on separating the sweet and non-sweet stuff. I can't mix them and intensely dislike the results of such mixes. So I expect my vegetables and other sides in regular meals to be non-sweet.
you don't like sweet potatoes. I cannot for the life of me fathom why folks add all that sweet stuff to them. Can't stand the brown sugar/marshmallow variety.
Try them baked or nuked, like a potato, with just butter and salt. Yum.
With brown sugar and marshmallows -- a Southern tradition!!!!
Yum. Can't have Christmas or Thanksgiving dinner without it.
the casserole, no. Emphatically. The good news is that means more for you!
You must want the terrorists to win.
I'm not too keen on apple pie either.
are way under appreciated. I did not discover collards or turnip greens until adulthood. I feel cheated. Man they are good. Not a big fan of the curly leaf variety of mustard greens but the smooth ones are OK too.
Spinach, of course, is yummy. Sauteed spinach on pizza with lots of garlic and mozzarella and fresh sliced tomatoes, oooh, very tasty.
there is a good argument for limiting one's meat intake: sustainability. I'll see if I can find the numbers somewhere, but it's estimated you need 100x as much land to sustain a meat eater than a veggie (since animals require land for grazing, etc.). That's a huge disparity, especially in the face of limited resources and exploding population. If I ever make the plunge into vegetarianism, that'll be why.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
US does not have limited resources when it comes to grazing land nor are we close to being overpopulated. We can easily sustain ourselves and we ship food all over the globe.
Sustainability is not OUR problem. We can sustain ourselves just fine when it comes to raising animals for food.
If some countries have a problem with sustainability then let them figure out the best approach to their own problems.
And the carbon footprint nonsense riles me up even more when tied to any of these topics. (Not directed at you, just a general aside)
Because Wal-Mart is about 30% of our customer base, they have a lot of clout with us. They want us to do a carbon study for some of the products we ship to them. I thought this whole thing was just idle talk, but apparently not.
Next thing you know, they'll be banning plastic bags at their stores (and bringing them back in about 10 years when we find out the carbon wasted by encouraging people to bring in cloth/paper bags). The Cycle of Life...
If a lot of morons say the same thing - it spreads and then other morons pick it up and do moronic things to try to appease the original morons pretending like what they are doing is not moronic when in reality it's a giant moronfest.
The insidious nature of the GW propagandists and all the industries of deceit they have spawned is starting to affect us on the micro level... Like they said on Redstate - GW is a huge threat. The propaganda itself is a huge threat to our way of life and our country.
US does not have limited resources when it comes to grazing land
There are 588 million acres of non-Federal grazing land in the U.S. as of 1997. Did you learn special math where 588 million = infinite?
nor are we close to being overpopulated.
Mostly true. We're a large country (fourth largest) and far from the most populous. By comparison Japan has half our population in an archipelago the size of california. They're overpopulated.
But there's two further considerations:
1) the US doesn't exist on its own. We're part of the world, and the world as a whole is overpopulated, even if our corner isn't one of the bad ones.
2) in addition to the question of sheer numbers is how much each individual consumes. Americans are some of the most wasteful on the planet. Our "ecological footprint" is enormous and so in terms of using resources we act as if we had a population many many times larger than it is. That's bad enough but the chinese and indians and others are racing to be just a piggy as we are. The planet can't take that.
Sustainability is not OUR problem. We can sustain ourselves just fine when it comes to raising animals for food.
Your in New York City, right? How many livestock farms are there within walking distance of your home? Oh, you mean you expect beef from cattle raised in texas to magically appear in your local supermarket after oil hits $300 a barrel?
the ecological bullsh*t. Please don't bring it up in arguments with me because I automatically ignore anything related. Too much lying going on in that area.
I don't believe humanity is affecting the planet nor is our planet being strained. All that stuff qualifies as fairy tales to me.
That means I have no problem with US using 1,000 times the resources of everyone else in the world if we can.
As for NYC and oil prices - we'll talk about that hurdle when we get there. I am sure we'll figure something out by that time and the price of oil (when it is at $300 a barrel - we'd probably need to be at supply being less than half of demand for that to happen) will not affect us as much.
 Sorry about the sour tone - I am just in a pissed off mood :)
still it's annoying to hear you say "Please don't bring it up in arguments with me because I automatically ignore anything related."
I mean then what's the point?
What if I said "Please don't bring up anything to do with conservativism, their have been so many lies that I'll just automatically discount anything related to the ideology."
Doesn't that kind of negate the whole point of the site? Like it or not the green ideology has a lot of traction in the US (if not very much political power).
the diary if we can't discuss it?
You are rather short on some topics. What if I said this about Christianity (because it is a fairy-tale to me)?
inside my diary what I considered absurd. And that the issue drives me up the wall. So in effect I apologized for anything I might say about it in the future :)
I didn't mean to say that it can't be discussed so I while I might view it with derision, nothing is off limits.
Then you obviously don't get out of New York much.
I highly recommend Too Many People: The Case for Reversing Growth as a primer on the effects of our continual population growth and farming, water-usage, fisheries, climate, energy use, and pollution. It also has a discussion of Europe's experience in reversing its growth.
I know not up Ender's alley, but anyone else should realize that population growth is exponential while our resources are not.
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