Wednesday Open Thread
I call BS on this survey - Poll: One in four adults read no books last year . I think at least 2/3rds of all those who said they actually read something last year were lying. Most Americans don't read, so it's not just that 27% who were honest.
This is an Open Thread.
Submitted by Ender on Wed, 2007-08-22 08:28
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Comments :
I will admit that I don't read a huge number of books
Usually a couple on my vacation, then a couple more the rest of the year, so maybe 4-6 a year. Often it takes me a few months to get thru a book. And I'm reading no books at the present time.
On my vacation this year, I finished "State of Denial", which I had started a few months earlier. Then I read Murray Waas's "The United States vs. Scooter Libby" which is basically mostly raw testimony from the trial-- I bought the book expecting the "backstory", so I was disappointed at first, but then I got into it anyway. Other books I have read in the past several months include "Harrington on Holdem" and "Harrington on Holdem Vol. II", which are both poker strategy books, and also Bill Richardson's autobiography. Nothing too exciting-- some would call this reading list pathetic in fact.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Wanna revive that debate idea?
A loooong time ago I proposed a semi-structured debate with the Forvm, with each blog taking the liberal side on one issue and the conservative side on another. They were interested but nobody in particular stepped up to take charge, and on this end I got busy with other things. I'd still like to make this happen if people are still interested, especially now that we have some new posters to help us out.
What reminded me of this was the discussion over the past two days on free markets and CEO compensation -- it was fun to dig into this stuff and that seemed like a reasonably balanced topic for debate, even if it's not a particularly pressing issue. There are three other topics I think work well: reforming education, global warming, and importing drugs. We've discussed all these here recently, so we're well-prepared to tackle either side =)
Suggested structure: first post discusses whether any action is required (or would be helpful), follow-up post suggests most effective course of action (ie, assumes answer to first post is "yes, action is required"). So for example if we took the conservative side in global warming we might argue (1) the science is uncertain, any action now is too expensive for the uncertain benefit and (2) an appropriate action would be a carbon tax (but not government emission caps). Or whatever you guys think makes sense.
I had tried to set up the debate where both blogs would post roughly simultaneously but that was, in retrospect, stupid -- let's just get our arguments settled first, then let them respond at leisure. If anyone is interested.
Unfortunately I'm out for a few hours, need to prepare for a meeting, so hopefully you'll have it all hammered out when I get back =)
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
one comment.....
Global warming is a tough topic to tackle properly. It's tough to me at least. It's not about acknowledging the problem...that's a pointless debate. I got up late today and I'm still a little punchy this morning so I can't really explain it clearly.
Perhaps this podcast
can show how daunting the real issue is and how talk is cheap. It's really short. Please listen to it and give me your thoughts.
Keep in mind, this isn't denial of the problem. It's just a realistic look at how the problem is being handled.
Unfortunately I don't have audio at work
but you're probably right, global warming is not the best.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Would definitely be interested.
Purpleface could even use the excellent diary she wrote on this topic as a prompt for the rest of us to respond.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I like to read action-packed books.
I recently read The Brotherhoods, about a pair of cops who were hitmen for the Mafia. What an intense book that was.
I'm also reading Chuck Hogan's The Killing Moon
This thread has inspired me to resume where I left off. Right now!!
haha
There you go! I wish I had more time to read myself... I used to read a ton of books a year but not lately - just not as much time.
Though in the last few days I finished Orson Scott Card's "The Worthing Saga" - beautiful book.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Sci-Fi & comedy.
I read Hunter's of Dune - it was written by Frank Herbert's son & someone else. It kind of carried on with the Dune series but he's a terrible writer compared to his father. I see they're just about to release a new one & I don't know that I'll actually read it. Maybe I'll pick up a Library copy because I'm not going to give my money to crappy writers.
Understatement
He's worse than terrible. He took a series that was fascinating and neutered into the most awful pablum that it wasn't fit for daytime soap opera scripting.
I hope he's ashamed of what he's done to his father's legacy. He should be.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Then you'll have to come by next week
when I do my literature series installment on an early Czech (soft) sci-fi writer who's still a great read: Karel Čapek. He's most famous for being the first to use the word "robot", but he had great, bizarre visions of apocalypse, like in War with the Newts and The Absolute at Large.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I know it's pretty damn limited
but mentioning Czech writers always brings memories of "The Good Soldier Švejk" by Jaroslav Hašek... I loved that book.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Yeah, that's a great book -
I haven't read Hašek in a while, but his stuff is hilarious. Maybe down the road I'll revisit him for a segment.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Speaking of literature
I enjoyed your latest diary on dKos, pico. Didn't think I would when I saw it was poetry, to be honest -- that's such a subjective thing, and so often a critical analysis just sucks the life out of the poems, detracting rather than adding to the enjoyment of the reader. Fortunately not the case here; the discussion of white/black imagery was cool, and I did enjoy the poems.
How many of these are you gonna do?
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
thank you very much!
I'm going to continue doing them as long as I can, honestly. I'll rope in a volunteer or two, and eventually, when I get tired, maybe there will be someone to pass it on to. But I have no plans to cut it off anytime soon, and I've got hundreds of books scattered all over my living room to pull from. Some of them take more research than others (I hadn't read Senghor since undergrad), but hopefully there will be a steady enough interest that it'll be worth the time.
Thanks again!
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Now they want to illegalize "the pill".
We all know how abortion is a difficult gap to bridge between those that feel it is not murder and a personal decision and those that feel it is murder and their own decision to force upon others.
Apparently, Gov. Romney now feels taking Birth Control pills or using an IUD is the same thing and would work to illegalize these methods of birth control
. (via talkingpointsmemo)
Even though the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists defines pregnancy as starting at implantation, anti-choice folks would further their agenda by not only saying you can't have abortions but also limiting what steps you take to keep from getting pregnant.
These folks just plain don't like sex. They want to make consentual acts as difficult as possible so we all have to live by their code, which isn't that far removed from the Talibahn that we are fighting against. We're fighting them over there so we can protect and further them over here....or something like that.
this is garbage
and you are just taking it without any critical evaluation.
From their own words:
Sorry but the pill is not an abortive drug. It has nothing to do with abortive drugs. Let's not confuse the issue and slander people.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Actually...
EC isn't an abortifact either. It works by preventing implantation.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
well
that is a separate issue...
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Guess who's coming to dinner
story
Gee, I wonder who those other friends could be... (hint- rhymes with "I can")
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
he
shouldn't try to provoke us! Especially since we hold his miserable life in our hands :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Hey!
That's Iraq's "George Washington" you're talking about with such disrespect!
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
I wish
someone would smack that stupid SoB across his face... What a moron :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Rockin economy
story
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
are we including
illegal aliens in the "all Americans" since plenty of them file with fraudulent SS numbers?
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
RE: Rockin economy
Good news! Seems like the middle class is moving up!
More good news, so are the poor!
America Rocks!
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Reading comprehension. That is all.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Are you saying that you don't have any?
Because your quotes seem to indicate that
I suppose that it's possible that those 3.2 million poor people jumped right to the top and represents a significant part of those 3.4 million top tier people. :) But I suspect that my first interpretation is more accurate.
This sounds like a rising tide to me! :)
How is it that you are spinning 3.4 million people moving into the over $100,000 category and 3.2 million people escaping poverty as a bad thing?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Why da ya think??
Sounds like a rhetorical question.
I see you failed to get the clue.
Since you are incapable of accepting anything outside of your narrow partisan view I'm not going to bother educating you.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Careful, Tlaloc
This non-partisan sees the tea pot calling the kettle back.
John
How is it you are non-partisan and I'm not? I don't support either major party in total. I don't like either in fact. I agree with each on some points.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
well, Tlaloc
I'm not saying you are partisan. I'm saying you are accusing GoRight of being partisan for seeing the positive sign in the those numbers that you that you obviously brought up with the intention of being negative. So, you seem to be suggesting that, because he's partisan, he's seeing something different in those numbers from what you see. Well, that could be an indirect way of saying the opposite...at least on economic issues.
You're choice of words, not mine. I'm just pointing it out.
Well, John
You might notice that when I posted the story I included the part that could be seen as positive. I put it in the quoted section so that the whole story was there.
Don't you think that's just a wee bit different than choosing two sentences out of the whole an pretending the rest don't exist?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
LOL
OMG, ROFL ...
Your entire article was right there above my comment! ROFL. Are you saying that I have to re-quote the entire quote to simply reply to part of it?
So, you agree it is positive news? :)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Wait a sec
The average income dropped. If more people are making more than 100k and fewer less than 25k, the income of people making between 25k-100k decreased significantly.
IOW, the middle class got hammered.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Talk to the numbers.
Surprisingly, your contention is not necessarily true because it assumes a static Total AGI level between 2000 and 2005. We know from tlolac's quoted portion that the Total AGI in 2005 was $7.43 Trillion and that this was an increase of 3.1% from the 2000 figures. We also know that of the increase in Total AGI from 2000 to 2005 that 2/3 went to the "rich" and the rest to the "poor".
So, I ran some numbers. To keep it easy I assumed that everyone in the middle stayed exactly where they were in 2000. I agree that this represents a loss to them because of inflation but it is hardly what I would call "getting hammered". This lead to the following:
So, if we hold the middle class flat from 2000 to 2005 and attribute all of the growth from 2000 to 2005 to those people who switched groups, the people who moved into the "rich" group would have seen an average increase of $45,388.56, and the people who escaped poverty would have seen an average increase of $23,752.78.
These are clearly inflated but even if we decrease them anything that we decrease them by only serves to increase the well being of the middle class, thus further reducing the charge of "getting hammered".
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Three things
First is picky: shouldn't it be 7,206,595,500,000 in 2000, since this times 3.1% gives 7.43 gazillion?
Second is also picky: it doesn't say 2/3 of the increase went to the 100k+, it says they contributed 2/3 of the new returns.
Third thing is important: I can't follow where you're putting the new people, and it looks like your average income increased (contrary to what is stated).
Nevermind the exact numbers, assume some increase in AGI, some increase in 100k+, some decrease in <25k, some increase in population, and a decrease in the average income. Start everyone with average pies (slightly decreased from 2000; since you have more people the total is a bit larger), give extra to the poor to bump them up, extra to the rich to bump them up -- the middle lost even more pie than the average decrease in income, no?
Now, maybe you took that pie only from the new people, but doesn't that contradict the 2/3 of new returns? (Edit: that 2/3 thing is bogus, they're comparing the number of new returns = 5,159,039 I think, to the number of new people making over 100k, but that doesn't say anything about whether these are new entries to the market or, much more likely, people making more money. So there's no contradiction. So the new people make less, which makes sense, and bring down the average, and everyone who had income in 2000 can in theory I think make the same -- you're right. Although the average of the middle class still goes down because of the crappiness of the entering jobs. Does that all track? Now I've completely confused myself.)
Maybe I'm missing something here, I'm admittedly sleepy...
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Doh.
You are correct, i did the computation wrong. I multiplied by 0.969 instead of dividing by 1.031. My bad.
Correct again, maybe I am the sleepy one! :)
Even so, isn't this a weird statistic? What does that actually mean and how did they compute it? Doesn't this mean that 2/3 of the new returns were from people who made over $100,000? That's an amazing statistic if you ask me.
From no return to over $100,000 in one year! Maybe there is more overlap between that 3.2 million that escaped poverty and the 3.4 million new lucky ones? :)
I am not sure what to do with this in my spreadsheet, though. It sort of messes up the idea of allocating things between the rich and the poor.
Let me think on it a bit more... I'll post an update in a bit...
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4I'm starting to think it's a meaningless statistic
From no return to over $100,000 in one year!
That's what I first thought too, as you can probably tell from my post, but upon rereading I think they're just making a really lazy comparison between the increase in the number of returns and the increase in the number of people making 100k+ without ascribing a 1:1 relationship there.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I agree.
I am trying to make heads or tails of it and. Taken completely literally it seems to say that there was an increase of 3.4 million returns over $100K AND that those 3.4 million returns were ALSO 2/3 of the new returns. I simply can't believe that.
I think that 3.4 million must be 2/3 of the number of new returns and nothing more. Which makes it a meaningless statistic, IMHO.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4RE: Three things
OK, here is my updated attempt at this. I scrapped the whole keep the middle people at 2000 levels meme. Instead I figured out how to make an estimate for the number of people in each group (Over $100K, Middle, Under $25K). I then took the total AGI increase from 2000 to 2005 and apportioned it across each of the groups and computed an average increase for each group.
So, while it was tight I managed to demonstrate that the AGI increase from 2000 to 2005 can cover 5.1M new jobs (albeit McJobs), and still give eveyone else a raise, including the middle class. The raises probably don't match inflation, though, so there is possibly some loss in "real terms" but clearly not a "got hammered".
I think that I have covered all of the major bases here, but I am sure you guys will find something to complain about. I have spent WAY too much time on this at this point.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Have you seen this article in today's paper?
Surprise: The rich get richer and the poor get more numerous
.(via SF Chronicle)
I'll ask for your opinion on the article, but I doubt you'll read it.
RE: Have you seen this article in today's paper?
OK, I read the whole article.
The results are consistent with the above except the title. They never substantiate the claim "the poor get more numerous", which is in direct contradiction to the stats above which claim a 5.5% decrease in the number of returns under $25K.
Rather than give you some fully hashed out and totally spun review, let me just walk through the article and sort of highlight the things that popped out at me as I was reading it.
Generally consistent with the stats above. People at the top and bottom seem to be doing better which is reflected in the stats for 3.2 million escaping poverty and 3.4 million making it to the good life.
I also note that this article is focused on the issue in California.
Uh oh, red flag.
Sounds like California has a problem, no surprise there (to me at least).
Um, and whose fault is that?
These are job growth stats, so these are the numbers of jobs in these groupings as far as I can tell. All three segments showed growth so that's hardly a pulling the rungs out of the ladder perspective.
Most of the growth happened in the top forty percent of the pay scale. That sounds like a goo thing to me, why not to you? Doesn't that mean people are doing better? Somebody is filling those jobs and most likely it is someone moving up from the 20-60% bracket. So that sounds like people moving up to me.
Note that moving up from the 20-60% bracket to the good life leaves vacancies in the middle. Aren't those vacancies rungs on the latter for the poor to grab for? So that 2.6% growth in the middle isn't necessarily as anemic as it sounds when you account for the obvious upward mobility taking place here.
43.1% Growth in the bottom 20% income bracket. Well considering that California continues to be flooded with unskilled and undocumented workers why would this be a surprise? But even so, if we are to believe the rhetoric about why the illegal immigrants are coming here in the first place then even THIS statistic represents an improvement for these people, right? Even THIS is upward mobility ofr the illegals relative to what they had before.
The people at the top are living better? Well that's a good thing. The people at the bottom are living worse? Not so since most of them are the illegal immigrants and the Democrats keep reminding us that they are coming here for a better life. So, is it better or is it worse?
Hello, importing large volumes of unskilled labor tends to generate this statistic despite the fact that the people in question are argued to be better off.
The rich are raking it in, I guess. Go talk to the Hollywood Elitists about that, they're the ones with the multi-million dollar estates, right?
So, the middle class saw an almost 10% improvement in real terms (after adjusting for inflation) and that's a bad thing?
Yep, looks like California has some kind of a problem. I wonder why they keep changing the date range in these stats, are they cherry picking for effect?
And now the shoe drops. Bam. And just why might corporations want to flee the state of California in droves? Could the tax structure there have anything to do with this trend? Hmmm?
And just who is in charge of the tax structure in California if not the California legislature? And what political party tends to dominate that legislature especially in the years in question? Hmmm?
So the state of California drove 464,700 middle class jobs out of the state and then they wonder why the middle class job growth was only 2.1% Ha. That's funny.
But when they do accept those low paying jobs we are told that they are still improving their lot in life, so that's a good thing, right?
This latter one always kills me. And you people complain about ME using hyperbole. Federal policies CAN"T lower the tax burden on the poor because they don't pay any taxes! They don't even HAVE a tax burden.
And now we enter the "Well Duh!" portion of the article.
Well Duh!
Well Duh!
Well Duh!
The funny thing here is that this seems to be news in California! :)
Gee, how interesting. Over $200K per year and they still have to watch their budget. Go figure. Seems like everyone has that problem, eh?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4RE: Rockin economy
Geeze, I almost missed this:
Even MORE good news, more people are working, AND we managed to keep the average income to within 1% of the 2000 levels in inflation adjusted numbers! :)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +41 in 4 was the exact number
in my household, growing up (counting my brother and I as adults). My dad never touched a book if he could help it. My mom read very occasionally. My brother's more a garden-variety reader, tackling books here and there as they interest him. I'm the bibliophile in the family.
So there you go, 1 in 4 didn't read a book last year. My tiny, insignificant sample proves it.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
heh
actually it's the same in my family but I think our families are a bit different from normal. My mom doesn't really read books. My dad loves to read and constantly buys books and goes to the library. My sister reads occasionally - I got her on Ayn Rand for example and she quickly went through all of Rand's fiction.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Poor girl.
I hear they offer therapy for that, nowadays.
Just for you:
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
A room without books
is as a body without a soul.
My home overfloweth and I have reached the strict space allocation stage. In my extended family, the ratio is much less than 1 in 4, so I tend to agree that folks overstate how much they read.
Given a choice between anything and reading, I usually chose reading, although it goes more in spurts these days. In a normal year, I may read close to 90 books. I revisit old favorites quite often.
I am waiting for the latest Stephen R Donaldson "Thomas Covenant" book, due out in October. Ah, the Land.
I'm fairly picky when it comes to fiction as I seem to have settled on a few favorite genres and styles, but I'm more omnivorous for non-fiction.
That's very cool, actually.
The only books in my home growing up were in my room - If I didn't look so much like my parents, they'd think I was switched at birth. Although it gives me a greater appreciation for how much of a crapshoot parenting can be: I can imagine my own kids coming out of my book-filled house with no interest in reading, which would be poetic justice in a way.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Seriously?
I've never lived anywhere that didn't have a book case in every bedroom as well as the living areas. Pretty much just the bathrooms and kitchens didn't have built in book storage.
That said these days the bulk of my new reading is on the internet and I mostly read books to reread old favorites while eating.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
wanna bet :)
In its first 24 hours alone the latest Harry Potter sold 8.3 million copies in this country. Assuming each book was only read by two people that's 5 percent of the population right there from one book, one day of sales.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
and what was the total amount
of those books sold? That would tell you more.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
The total?
Uh I think it was an a$$load. Yeah. Maybe two a$$loads.
Seriously I have no idea. A lot.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
i'd be surprised
if those two a$$loads amounted to anything close to a full 10% of US population.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Feeling elitist this morning, Ender? :)
"Most Americans don't read" tsk! tsk!
would that be a simple majority, 51%? or?? did you pull that No. out of your ... ahem? ;)
Speaking of reading, a recent story/poll claiming Liberals read more than Conservatives, (w/an elitist bias, of course)
"WASHINGTON (AP) -- Liberals read more books than conservatives. The head of the book publishing industry's trade group says she knows why - and there's little flattering about conservative readers in her explanation.
"The Karl Roves of the world have built a generation that just wants a couple slogans: 'No, don't raise my taxes, no new taxes,'" Pat Schroeder, president of the American Association of Publishers, said in a recent interview. "It's pretty hard to write a book saying, 'No new taxes, no new taxes, no new taxes' on every page."
Schroeder, who as a Colorado Democrat was once one of Congress' most liberal House members, was responding to an Associated Press-Ipsos poll that found people who consider themselves liberals are more prodigious book readers than conservatives.
...
"The AP-Ipsos poll found 22 percent of liberals and moderates said they had not read a book within the past year, compared with 34 percent of conservatives.
Among those who had read at least one book, liberals typically read nine books in the year, with half reading more than that and half less. Conservatives typically read eight, moderates five.
By slightly wider margins, Democrats tended to read more books than Republicans and independents. There were no differences by political party in the percentage of those who said they had not read at least one book...."
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
arrrgggh! why does linking here elude me??
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLITICAL_READING_HABITS?SITE=AP&...
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
testing
link
yay!
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
hehehe
Sure, I was basing all this on purely anecdotal evidence... I just don't trust these polls.
I'd compare this kind of stuff to doctors asking people whether they exercise. Too much lying going on :)
Let me go further on the pulling stuff out of my youknowwhat and claim that liberal women read a lot of Romance novels which might account for the slight disparity between liberals and conservatives :) Also their elitism promotes lying!
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
but shouldn't conservative men
reading all those comic books balance that out?
bwahaha :)
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
Not just comic books
But spy thrillers as well ;} Nothin' but the male version of the romance novel. They do make better movies though.
good point!
e.g., Clancy's books are too complex and techy for my frilly brain ;), but the movies sure are fun!
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
ehh
spy thrillers are a 100 times more intelligent than romance novels! I don't read them either though.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
100 times? another No. pulled out of
your ... hat?
I haven't read a romance novel in ages, but the ones I used to like had historical context -- all those heaving bosoms and bared chests in historical context was very educational!! :)
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
I might've read a couple here and there
when I was a teenager :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
hehe! :)
One summer, as a teenager, I plowed through all of Agatha Christie's books -- glad I got that out of my system! and now I happily ignore the Hercule Poirot/Miss Marples BBC shows :)
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
back then I was a big
fan of Sherlock Holmes...
Overall though I've always preferred the less constrained and infinitely more imaginative field of Sci Fi :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
The best spy novels
have action and, ah, romance.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I rest my case ;} (nt)
uhhuh
riiight :) We all read intellectual stuff like good sci fi, Rush Limbaugh, and Ayn Rand.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
One of these things is not like the other
One of these things isn't the same...
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
you are just jealous
of my reading selection.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I like sci-fi a lot! a fave genre,
and I've read some Rand years ago, her biggies, and I love the Fountainhead! Gary Cooper! swoon, oh, I digress ... online, I recently I read her '64 Playboy interview (conducted by Alvin 'Future Shock' Toffler) very good!, --- but I didn't know Rush was an author as well? honestly! does he examine conservatism, or just bash liberals?
what has he written that you enjoyed reading?
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
I've read a lot
of sci fi - definitely my favorite genre as well. Fountainhead is great though I enjoy Atlas Shrugged better. And We the Living is great as well :)
I did just order Fountainhead on dvd. It's an interesting movie.
Joking about Rush... He wrote some stuff that was mostly red meat for the base. I enjoyed reading a few chapters of one of his books (don't remember if it was me or my dad who bought the book) long long time ago (during Clinton) but it wasn't anything I haven't heard before. Just funny and spot on bashing of liberals. He did go into some rationalization of Conservatism.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I'm making a note to re-read some
of Rand again -- it's been so long now .. and an older me might have a different perspective! I really enjoyed her raging individualism in the Playboy interview -- very refreshing in this collectivist age
(during the making of Fountainhead, Cooper and O'Neal were having a torrid extramarital affair that was the talk of Hollywood! but Cooper, being a bad boy/good boy, didn't leave his wife over it.)
I'd also like to read Goldwater's 'The Conscience of a Conservative', which I learned on CSpan, has recently been re-issued.
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
I was just reading some of that interview
googled it after seeing your comment. Not too bad. Some of it is so dogmatic that it rubs me the wrong way, but I definitely like the spirit of it.
I reread Rand's stuff about a year ago and it was still pretty damn good!
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Wingnuts promote American dictatorship and genocide.
This is painful
Oh lord it just goes on from there.
BTW, the group that wrote this screed? Not the poseurs you might think:
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
I thought your were a proponent of logic?
This analysis is quite logical and accurate, actually. Harsh? Sure but compassion isn't logical.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4You are not qualified to judge...
matters of logic or accuracy.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
More qualified than you.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Compassion isn't IL-logical, either.
It's neither/nor. But this certainly isn't:
First, it's not exactly the kind of statement that can be judged accurate/inaccurate, so I'd strike that from your claim entirely (it's a hypothetical, so accuracy doesn't come into the equation). What we can say is that it's completely bonkers, or at least subscribes to a type of logic that has no place in foreign-policy making. I'm sure it's not too difficult to build a sturdy logical argument that this is the worst advice imaginable.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
No its not.
There's nothing whatsoever bonkers about it if you remove the emotion (compassion) from that statement. Logically, it is completely correct and accurate.
Well, as you said about the previous statement I will simply repeat back at you: "First, it's not exactly the kind of statement that can be judged accurate/inaccurate, so I'd strike that from your claim entirely (it's a hypothetical, so accuracy doesn't come into the equation)."
You have no basis for saying that the original statement has no place in foreign policy making. That very act won us WWII, and that very threat has been the basis for our foreign policy making for the past 50 or so years.
And who did we bomb at the end of WWII? Japan. Today they are one of our strongest allies.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Correct and accurate?
No. Not by the standard definition
of wise, since words have meanings after all :)
Using nuclear bombs to slaughter innocent civilians does not strike me as the act of someone possessing discernment, judgement or discretion. Does it you?
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
ummm of course
of course it can be so. And most people agree that it was in ww2. There are cases where use of nuclear weapons can be justified.
Most obvious justified case right now would be in self-defense if a WMD is used on US.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Not in this case
These people aren't talking about WWII or self-defense.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
yup! these nuts wanna make history,
not learn from it ....
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
Revisionist memories.
We are in Iraq because Saddam refused to cooperate in confirming that the WMDs we knew they had were destroyed. Lacking positive confirmation of their destruction we engaged them so as to insure that the WMDs would not fall into terrorist hands, if they still existed.
We still have no idea what happened to those WMDs that we know existed so they may, in fact, still exist and have been moved out of Iraq.
In any case, this was clearly a case of self defense.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4:(
So you honestly believe that using nukes on Iraqi civilians would have been the wisest choice? That saddens me, since you seem to be fairly representative of a reasonable Conservative/Right/Republican viewpoint. I guess the divide between Left and Right in this country is much wider than I expected. Sigh.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
I doubt
he really believes that using nukes in Iraq would've been wise. But there are cases where it could be...
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Well, he's arguing
...that it is logical and correct to say that it would have been wise. I guess I'll just assume that he's playing devil's advocate purely for the sake of argument, since the alternative is that he's a lunatic.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
OK, I'll give you a bone.
I'm not sure that I would actually call that the wisest course of action out of all possible options, but I stand by the logic of the rest as being spot on accurate:
I will also grant/acknowledge a quibble or two with the use of the word "cowardly" to describe the electorate in this statement, but only because their reaction would have been motivated by emotion as opposed to logic or fear.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Thanks for the bone. You are still wrong.
Ignoring human emotion (and I am talking about the reactions of the rest of the world, not the electorate) when making a decision is not logical. Specifically, the contention that "there would be little risk or expense" involved in turning the entire rest of the world against us is so patently absurd that the mind reels. Assuming you agree that the majority of Americans would be horrified by such an action, what do you think would be the reaction of the rest of the world?
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Thanks, Ender!
I appreciate the support while I was distracted.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4It IS completely bonkers.
Maybe you forgot a few things in your comparison, like the fact that the United States is no longer the only country with nuclear weapons. To start a nuclear war nowadays would be suicide, and everyone knows it - even against a non-nuclear country. Especially to start a nuclear war as an act not of defense (remember we ostensibly bombed Japan because of the predicted casualties of an invasion) but as an act of pure offense, which is how I read the completely unambiguous "slaughter Iraqis until they bend to his will", is about as insane as one can possibly get.
Mark my words: the day we use a nuclear weapon in a situation that clearly doesn't warrant it is the day you better dive for your bunker. Because things will get ugly.
And no, we can quibble over whether it's logical, but there's nothing to quibble about in the term "accurate". You have to have something to measure it against to make a claim of accuracy, and there's no yardstick here.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Sorry you're wrong.
Not bonkers at all. The logic in absolutely correct as long as you don't let emotion get in the way.
None of the other nuclear powers will do anything as long as we don't nuke them. Oops, this obvious fact seems to be missing from your analysis.
As for accuracy, in what way is it inaccurate?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4agreed
I think that is extremely obvious :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I don't have to claim it's inaccurate -
you have to claim that it's accurate. And since accuracy is a specific claim (that a proposed assessment matches up with a real situation, in your case), you have your work cut out for you.
You can claim it's true, but that's not the same as claiming it's accurate. For someone who's such a stickler for language, I'm surprised at how sloppy you're being!
By the way, we don't have to be at war with another nuclear power to consider it a deterrent - there's a reason we haven't used them since Japan, and it's not because hippies have taken over the foreign policy machine. In order to maintain a credible nuclear defense and a coalition of allies, you can't use nukes unless they're as closed to justified as possible. We'd even lose Britain if we used nukes on Iraq, and since the indiscriminate killing of Muslims would likely turn the Muslim world against us (in a way that makes their current animosity look like Candyland), do you really think that kind of approach would be wise, in any sense of the word?
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I''ve seen plenty of BDS - Bush Derangement
Syndrome -- but what to call this? Curtis LeMay Syndrome? bomb them into submission? or maybe Delusions of McCarthur? Nuke the Bastards!
and 'someone' didn't get the memo!!
"he conquered Iraq with an army."
tsk, tsk! we liberated Iraq, LIBERATED!!!!
I have no idea what context to put this in -- according to Wonkette, it's been scrubbed from the site, and rightfully so. This would do no one no good.
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
More Global Warming Cold Spots ...
During the period of most significant greenhouse gas buildup over the past century, i.e., 1930 and onward, Pilot Rock's mean annual temperature has cooled by 0.41 degrees Fahrenheit.
Station of the week
!
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Coincidentally
co2science.org has recieved at least 90,000 dollars from Exxon.
funny how that works
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Are you suggesting ...
that the data from "one of the 1221 U.S. Historical Climatology Network (USHCN) stations from 1930-2005" is inaccurate or fabricated?
Isn't that the very data that Hansen relies on? OMG, could he have made another mistake?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Not suggesting anything...
just remarking on a strange coincidence.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Actually.
As a government employee, doesn't Hansen also receive part of his salary from Exxon too?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Private vs government.
Exxon is neither a branch nor department of government. You really should know that.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Do they pay taxes?
Taxes that in part fund Hansen?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Even you can't ...
be so disingenuous as to equate getting paid with taxes that in some tiny fraction derive from Exxon with having Exxon directly pay you.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Sure, why not?
Its true!
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4What, no smiley?
You've got to be joking, right? Or did you miss the word "equate" in Tlaloc's statement?
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
Hansen of GISS and his Tin Foil Hat.
In a stinging rebuke of the Hansen legacy, Steve McIntyre skewers Hansen's reaction to having his glaring inaccuracies publically highlighted.
Apparently he after the media started calling him for clarification on the impact of their faulty data he started going on and on about Royalty, and court Jesters, and proclaimed that the leaders of his nemesis, the Contrarians, were "Big Fish". This is true. I couldn't make this stuff up.
Read the full story:
Hansen and the "Destruction of Creation"
In the article McIntyre highlights:
Hmm.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Well, |+0.32| > |-0.15|
So Hansen's criteria for the minimum change that is large enough to warrant publication must fall in the ±0.16-0.31 range.
What's the problem?
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Totally arbitrary with a touch of just a little
too convenient with respect to his goals.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Meh
I can think of about a million things in life where when A is more than twice as big in magnitude as B, A gets treatment that B does not:
* Two cars speed down an interstate past a state trooper. Car A goes 20 MPH over the speed limit, Car B goes 10 MPH over the speed limit. The trooper ignores car B but gives car A a big fat ticket.
* An office manager wants to make two purchases: item A, $20 and Item B, $10. The office manager must get approval for item A while item B is bought out of petty cash.
* A river flows thru a city. In year A, the river floods 5 feet over flood stage and the government takes no action. In year B, the river floods 10 feet over flood stage and the National Guard is called in and emergency funds are supplied.
* A car A and car B are being built on an assembly line. A gap between two parts on car A is .1mm too large. The car continues down the assembly line. The gap between the same two parts on car B is .2mm too large. Quality control stops the assembly line and takes corrective measures.
* The stock market rises by 150 points on day A. No trading curbs are invoked. The stock market falls by 300 points on day B. Trading curbs are invoked.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Bah
We aren't interested in 2x. We are interested in orders of magnitude. 1x, 10x, 100x, etc. These two are on the same order of magnitude.
It is obvious that Hansen was simply interested in grandstanding with the case that increased and wants to poo poo the importance of a decrease.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4So I take it you have the + or - info available?
If the original analysis is + or - .2 then it is highly relevent. In one case, it is greater than the stated error, in the other less and therefore within the margin of error.
RE: So I take it you have the + or - info available?
From McIntyre's report:
Seems that a +0.35 which is within the margin of error IS worth writing a report about, whereas a -0.15 degree C change is not. Hmmm.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Of, by, and for the people
Makes you proud, no?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Conservatives should be embarassed!
Bubble Boy Bush -- ha! it's a story how this even came to light ---
"The "Presidential Advance Manual," dated October 2002 with the stamp "Sensitive -- Do Not Copy," was released under subpoena to the American Civil Liberties Union as part of a lawsuit filed on behalf of two people arrested for refusing to cover their anti-Bush T-shirts at a Fourth of July speech at the West Virginia State Capitol in 2004. The techniques described have become familiar over the 6 1/2 years of Bush's presidency, but the manual makes it clear how organized the anti-protest policy really is.
The lawsuit was filed by Jeffery and Nicole Rank, who attended the Charleston event wearing shirts with the word "Bush" crossed out on the front; the back of his shirt said "Regime Change Starts at Home," while hers said "Love America, Hate Bush." Members of the White House event staff told them to cover their shirts or leave, according to the lawsuit. They refused and were arrested, handcuffed and briefly jailed before local authorities dropped the charges and apologized. The federal government settled the First Amendment case last week for $80,000, but with no admission of wrongdoing."
arrested, handcuffed and briefly jailed!!! for political dissent? very un--American folks, and I'm darn glad they brought this suit, brought this info to light (it was evident from the administration's actions, merely confirmation), and I'm darn glad they won! I don't want to live in a country where they would have lost ... nope!
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
I dunno
would you want to be interrupted by those losers? :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
now, now! you'll be singing a
different tune the day wingnuts voice their constitutional right to dissent against President Hillary, and you know it! :)
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
If we can't get the SC crowd to read books....
How about comics? Today's version is Tom Tommorrow's
This Modern World & well worth investing the time.
Well, I had fun
with this whole discussion and certainly learned something along the way.
Lots of heat we produced, to be sure, but some light in there too.
Let's do it again sometime... with a different topic =p
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
CNN has a story today saying that American officials
are troubled that Iraqi citizens prefer security to democracy
.
Bush43 is trying to figure out how to make 2007 Americans feel the same way. Hey, it worked in 2002 & 2004. They'd like to think 2006 was an anomoly.
Americans do like security....just not at the expense of freedom, especially when it's our leaders who are sowing fear.
Speaking of which, who has seen the TalkingPointsMemo thread where Michael McConnel says that discussing FISA will kill Americans!
. Talk about fearmongering.
The beginning of the end?
I found this to be the money quote in that CNN story:
Reality has such a nasty habit of intruding upon grand and idealistic dreams. /end wry minirant
Installing a new "entity" before we leave is certainly one option, but is that a better option than letting the Iraqi people find their own way out of this? I dunno. Might not be, although it may seem so.
I doubt we'd go that route -
too much political capital was earned off those images of purple fingers. The public has a short memory, but that's some serious ideological whiplash.
Dunno, this seems like all-around "lesser of two evils" to me, although I'm not sure which is the lesser.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Part of my posting the story was tongue in cheek.
I mean, it worked here in the US post 9/11. If Americans can be prodded into giving up what sets the US apart from most nations in the world for an ill defined "security and safety", I'm not sure were are in any position to judge others.
GoRight, you will be most pleased with pico--
He's rescuing anti-Feinstein diaries over on DailyKos-- From the Open Thread and Diary Rescue
:
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Hey, now we're talkin'!
Gee, pico, did all of my DiFi bashing pay off? :)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4When have I ever supported Feinstein?
Never been a fan of hers, and I actually met her back in '97 (blech). How could I pass up the opportunity to support a movement to replace her with a more left-leaning politician, right?
Naw, I'm making it all up. I did it just for you.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Even I can join GoRight in his desire to oust DiFi.
And I'm lucky enough to be able to vote in the primary against her as well.
I know you'll be thanking me GR for voting against the DINO, but I seriously doubt you'll be enchanted with the winner.
If you vote against her you will be doing the country a favor.
I am curious, however, what would you all assume is my primary reason for wanting her gone?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4You've stated (many times) she's corrupt.
I don't think she's corrupt, well, no more than most other politician that has millions of dollars to invest with.
I'm going to vote against her because the doesn't represent my views on some of the really important issues.
RE: You've stated (many times) she's corrupt.
Well, that's true, and that's what I would have expected you to say but that whole being corrupt thing is just partisan politics.
My real reason is that she was the mother of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban. For that she deserves to be ridiculed and drummed out of office with no way to redeem herself. That was the most heinous law ever imposed on the American People in modern times.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Well, why haven't you come forth with this before?
Instead of engaging in all this "political theater" regarding these trumped-up corruption charges which you now admit were merely partisan mud-slinging on your part, you could have been informing us on the issues re: Feinstein.
Honestly, I had no idea that Dianne was pro-keeping-uzis-off-the-streets.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Well, whatever your reasons are ...
thank you for your support! :)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4