Friday Open Thread
Mitt Romney will propose health insurance overhaul, through state by state coverage .
California voters could alter 2008 race
By a margin of 47 percent to 35 percent, the Field Poll found voters supported a GOP-inspired ballot measure replacing the state's winner-take-all method for awarding electoral votes with a system that would give one vote to the candidate who won the most votes in each of the state's 53 congressional districts and two votes to the statewide winner.
UPDATE** Good Cato Podcast today on state spending, Republican results on spending...Fed and State...as well as ideas to control the explosion in state spending as Federal spending increases. Not long. Good listening.
This is an Open Thread.
Submitted by Ender on Fri, 2007-08-24 07:59
Tags:

Comments :
Concerning the California initiative....
that's fine...
....as long as the GOP mischief-makers are not opposed to doing the same thing in EVERY single state.
Texas, Florida, Georgia..... ALL the states.
Predicted GOP response... {crickets}
I survived the Bush Administration
umm
of course it's mischief though it is ironic as the Dems have been trying variations on this theme for some time in GOP states. Lately in North Carolina.
I'd rather they just fight these initiatives wherever they pop up but it's still fun to see the Dem response.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
the Field poll is b*llsh*t.
living in CA I can tell you this attempt is not popular and will not pass if it ever does make the ballot.
How can I say that? I've asked people what they think. They agree the whole thing is an attempt to siphon off votes to Republicans & their presidential field isn't popular here at all.
Go ahead and get worked up about it but it won't happen.
My views... I'd like to do away with the Electoral Collage completely and have our President elected by a democratic vote of the people directly.
while I am not going to argue
whether this measure will pass, somehow the poll of all Californians is seems a whole lot more objective and statistically valid than your asking the people what they think. But that's just me. I am strange like that.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
If push comes to shove
Dems will get out the word in a very Dem state that the measure needs to be squashed, and it will be. Any current poll almost surely reflects some level of ignorance of the impact of the measure.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
'getting out the word' will cost Dems
10's of millions, which is the R's point -- diverting some of the D's to date financial advantage .. clever!
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
Well then,
the Dems just need to cook up some phoney baloney measure of their own so that the Republicans have to spend a few mill in protecting their flanks!
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
easy to do in CA -- stay tuned! :)
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
How about this:
Summary of proposed ballot initiative: Rather than electing Representative to Congress directly, voters elect a five-member statewide board by statewide popular vote. The board, in turn, selects Representatives for each of California's districts :-)
(disclaimer: this is not vetted against my trusty copy of the Constitution)
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
my head's spinning! hehe
I read somewhere? that the CA Dems will put up counter-acting referendums (referendi?) ...
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
I agree
Except for 2 minor amendments to the initiative:
1. English as the official language of CA
2. The only people qualified to vote for this board are the ones who are able to speak English and pass a test prior to being registered certifying their understanding of what they are voting for in English.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
F that!
Ender's amendments-- tabled! The good Democrats of California want nothing to do with your amendments when cooking up their phoney baloney keep-republicans-spinning-plates ballot measures!
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
so basically you admit
that CA dems rely exclusively on illegal aliens for their electoral victories!
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
You can be legal and still
not speak English that well. But still, don't people have to be a valid legal resident of some kind to be able to vote anyway?
Either way, I don't the idea of the 5-person board of electors anyway.
with questions like
"What is your name?"
and
"Which country are you a citizen of?"
and
"Do you like hamburgers and hot dogs?"
most legal immigrants will have no problems proving their bona fides.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I've got a better question
How about "Did Saddam Hussein have anything to do with 9/11?"
That should weed out the Fox News viewers
Do you think the question "What is your name?" would keep illegal immigrants intent on voter fraud from voting? And Republicans are the law and order party?
Heck no!
You also got your San Fransisco gays and limousine libruhls, your Humboldt/Mendocino County stoners, your Hollywood bleeding-heart set, and a scattering of hippies throughout the state. That's a strong coalition right there even leaving out the Mexicans :-)
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
hehe! skymutt :)
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
I won't deny your strangeness.
But I wouldn't trumpet it here either.
The whole premise of this push is based on the people of California being idiots and dolts. While you may like to think that, we out here don't. We see this is an attempt to install another Republican as President.
There will be those who will vote for it. Democrats outnumber Republicans among registered voters by a 10-point margin (31% to 41%)
, so I suspect that many Republicans would vote for it.
Your hope that the majority Democrats are stupid is only one of your strange qualities.
I won't argue with your
contention that the majority of Democrats are stupid, but remember that GOP does not need a majority of Democrats to get that thing passed :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Cute, your pulling a madscientist moment here though.
My exact words were:
The whole premise of this push is based on the people of California being idiots and dolts. While you may like to think that, we out here don't.
The fact is, you'll get almost no Democrats to vote for it.
Why don't you tell us about the good people of New Jersey? You may actually know more about them than I do about us out here.
hehe
What's to say? They keep putting the most corrupt politicians in the Union in power regardless of how much they know. Morons.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Maybe, but it is a very pretty state.
I had dinner with my old college roommate in northern Bergen County when I was back there. Nice.....
It's one of those things no one else is able to pin on NJ
but you...
New Jersey is many things but very pretty it is not. Overall it's a dump. There are areas that are exceptions of course.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
a dump!!?? outrageous!! my New Jersey
nativist root instincts are aroused, and I condemn your remark in the strongest terms!!! and I suggest you think twice, and post once.
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
hehe
well I work here in NJ, and I live 1 minute away from NJ border. Nothing great, but the gas is cheap.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
that's much improved! rolling my eyes ;)
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
oh, it's lovely! I grew up in Jersey;
But what's not so lovely is NJ has the highest property taxes in the nation, I believe, which enrages the folks I still know there ...
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
You know what I found really funny?
My friend lives in a very nice area. Big yards (most had over a half acre each), good schools from what they say. They were tearing up the streets going into the neighborhood because they were putting in solid granite curbs on the streets in that area.
But all the houses there are on septic tanks. When I suggested that maybe they should run sewer lines and put in a sewage treatment plant, my friend (who is a NJ Republican btw) looked at me like I was from Mars.
They'll spend money on granite curbs to line their streets but not sewage treatment plants.....go figure.
Septic tanks work just fine
got one here m'self... not that big a deal... roto-rooter once every few years to pump the thing out, and a box of Rid-X every now and again... I don't blame em for not wanting to get their yard all chewed up to get connected to city sewers (and prolly pay thru the nose for the privelege)...
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
does it explode occasionally
like on "Meet the Parents"?
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Not yet--
however I do sometimes have a bit of a problem with a distinct lack of flushing power... unknown if it is septic-system related, but let's put it this way: a plunger is made prominently visible when I have houseguests, so they don't come running to me if there are difficulties in the lavatory :-)
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Shooting themselves...
It's unfortunate that this is how they want to apportion their votes. They may effectively shoot themselves in the foot this way--I've been a supporter of proportional representation of some type (therefore your vote really does count and not just if you live in a purple state).
However, if every other major state refrains from doing so, this doesn't make much sense. It's kinda like the state primaries all moving up for "attention." It won't matter.
http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678 Brawl: 2277-7051-2186
Rudi Guliani hires a new image makeover firm...
Yup, apparently Rudi isn't happy with his image. He hired out Scott Howell & Company
, the firm that made the famous inuendo ad against Harold Ford last election cycle
. Rudy, Rudy, Rudy. How many feet do you have that you can continue to shoot yourself in them, repeatedly?
Call me Rudy.
Should birth control be illegal?
We touched on this earlier in the week when Romney made comments to some group stating that he'd illegalize abortion and abortifacts. He said he included birth control pills as abortifacts, even though that is medically and actually untrue.
Today's Dkos has a front page thread stating even more details that you really should know about our Presidential contenders
. They aren't just against abortion, they're against sex with birth control:
"Eighty six anti-abortion groups have committed to opposing all forms of contraception." and
"Among the 42 million fertile, sexually active women who do not want to become pregnant, 89% are practicing contraception." This is important because:
"Abortion is not the target here - it's just the first step."
What is it about Republicans that they insist on looking into our bedrooms and sex lives?
these people
are pissing me off... That agenda is garbage.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Holy moley
Brownback's position is not surprising, as it meshes well with the moral stance he's taken all along.
Tancredo, well, he has no chance, and his quote seemed a bit on the "gotta walk the pander line" side anyway.
Romney concerns me more, but as a Mormon, his position is also not that surprising.
Good thing Congress makes laws, not the President. Because making contraception illegal (does that include Trojans? Or are we just targeting promiscuous women here? hmmmm) would be the height of stupidity.
We could all do with a dose of MYOB sometimes. This preoccupation with other people's sex lives is indeed a somewhat weird feature of the Republican party.
it seems like
some of the republicans want to swamp us with a whole bunch of unwanted babies... Dovetails nicely with their pro-family happiness agenda.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
In their own way
they are as desirous of controlling people's lives "for the common good" as some of the Democrats who want to control people's livelihoods. Both extremes are attacking our personal freedoms, and both think they have morality on their side.
that's one of the reasons I like
Giuliani. There is no way in hell that he'd go along with this kind of agenda.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I'm inclined to agree with your Guliani take.
He has a very reasonable birth control stance. But he's still said he'd appoint more John Roberts' and Scalias to the Courts. That's kind of one of the reasons Rudy scares me. Now if he's just saying that to get elected......well, I'll let the conservatives here fill in the blanks in that case.
My problem with Rudy
is his world view beyond our borders and the fact that he views a powerful executive as a key to enacting and engineering change. These two points have far reaching implications that don't sit well with me.
I'd never vote for him.
but what else CAN he say in a
Republican primary? 'strict constructionist judges' is their mantra, after all (Harriet Miers notwithstanding .. oops)
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
Yup! and now that a significant %
of the white evangelical voters are up for grabs in '08, have u noticed how the Dems are framing issues as 'moral' this, and 'moral' that? oy!!!!!!
the fundies are driving, and winning the framing debate, but this is not the way to go for a secular, rational society, imo
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
I think the reason for that
is that Dems ran from the Republican's moral agendas in the last few elections, and now fear that Republicans have a lock on anything related to moral values (in the same way Republicans have a lock on "religious" voters, which is false but a powerful narrative).
I wish they didn't fear that: I'd much rather a politician not pushing these kinds of moral agendas, frankly. Watching the Dems run to this kind of vocabulary is disconcerting.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I guess that we are trying to ...
breed ourselves into a majority now, but the Democrats seem to have outsourced that job to Mexico which is why they want free passage for them into the US. :)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4it's a nice thought
but considering all such measures would disproportionally affect the democratic demographics, it fails the logic test :)
I don't want more democratic babies whether they come from Mexico or from 15th century GOP mentality.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Don't be so sure about that -
one of the reasons Republicans have been pushing the moral crusader angle so strongly is that Latino voters tend to be very conservative Catholics. They trend Democrat, but it's not a strong (or guaranteed) trend.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Possibly.
I just thought the whole breeding yourself into a majority meme was kinda funny.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4If it makes you feel any better,
I'm sure condoms are down the list, once the rest gets banned. At least, that's if Ave Maria, Florida
is any indication of the future (they've banned the sale of condoms there, entirely).
Naturally, though, we go after the women first.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
see, an Ave Maria doesn't faze me, why?
because it's voluntary -- it's religous freedom, it's freedom of assembly, etc. -- eyes wide open, but!! just keep it in your town's incorporated borders, and I'm fine with it
I live near enuf to Amish communities, and nobody's decrying their religous freedoms, and choices, are they? they home school and I doubt there's a condom anywhere near their organic cucumbers! lol, so what's the difference?
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
Would that they kept it that way,
but you know that it's the same people behind, for example, the lawsuit in Dover, PA (among other places) to force intelligent design into the curriculum? Monaghan's Thomas More law center has its fingers in a lot of pies
. Monaghan's stated goal is not to create Ave Maria as a refuge for conservative Catholics, but as a temporary refuge while they change laws around the rest of the country to be more conservative and Catholic.
That's why I have no beef with the Amish, by comparison.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
they're not nearly as political, that's true!
though the R's in '04 made concerted efforts, and made a dent, for the 'Amish vote' in PA and OH -- for obvious reasons :)
Did you watch CNN's God Warriors? -- last nite, it was the Christians' turn, and there are strong political factions, but that's their constitutional right too, and as long as they work in the system? as the 'social justice' religous factions do? and as Dem candidates campaigning in black churches do? etc --- that's political life in America!
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
that's the R's Moral Collectivism, which
I can not stand, and they should be confronted about about it in these debates, or some forums -- get them on record
I don't give a hoot if some of them choose not to believe in evoution -- don't make no diff to me -- but this? this does, oh yes.
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
definitely
The republicans who choose to align themselves with the views of the fundie groups advocating this nonsense should be put on the spot and trashed for it.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Philosphy about human nature is the key
IMHO, from what I've read and gathered, such hardline social stances taken by factions within the GOP are the result of fear of man's inclinations when left to pursue his moral agenda in a world of abundance and choice.
I touched on this in the past though I can't find the topic thread. These groups feel that sound "moral fabric" and norms (to their specs) are necessary for a wealthy society to endure and not hallow itself out into oblivion. My aunt is one of these people. She refers to the decline of the Roman Empire as a moral problem...not a geopolitical or economic one. She says the USSR lacked religion and moral fiber and that's why they failed.
While these people are generally pro-growth as I understand it, they taint it with massive exceptions on moral, cultural and nationalistic grounds.
basically, for them:
Free enterprise is good but not when used to promote "unsavory" activity, choice and variety are good but not for
things that undermine traditional values and open up markets for "vulgar behavior" that leads to social decay and rot that threaten the nation's ability to continue to excel in their vision. Vast opportunity is good but we must contain its reach. Abundance is good but we must prune it to weed out morality-threatening choices. and on and on.
Basically, capitalism is good but must be morally regulated to preserve society's moral strength because, without it, we will impoverish ourselves through our excesses and the moral relativism that comes from more points of view.
In this sense, they do not support individual freedom the way libertarians and to a slightly lesser extent...less dogmatic fiscal conservatives and fiscally moderate Clintonesque liberals do.
They support the machinery of capitalism but not its free use by all because they fear the moral implications to tradition and family that come from abundance. This makes them strangely similar but different from populist liberals and socialists who fear the machinery but not its social implications...at least not in the same sense as the Social Right does.
Both may hate Wal-Mart, for example, but not necessarily for the same reasons.
Are you an educator?
Your pieces are well put together. I see you have good presentation skills & you actually use logic properly.
That isn't to say I agree with all your economic ideas. But I do like reading them.
No.
But I did stay at a Holiday Inn express last night...
hahahaha.
No. Seriously, I'm not. I could be but choose not to though I do get tempted to do the 2 semesters of part-time classes to get certified. My girlfriend, brother, sister and sister-in-law are teachers though.
Hayek's view on conservatism
Why I'm not a Conservative
I support any birth control that ...
prevents conception but not any that allow conception but prevent implantation.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Actually, given all the "recent" scandels in the news ...
I think you have that backwards. It seems that the Democrats are the peeping Toms.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4In what respect?
I'm thinking of laws aimed toward bedroom behavior, and all I'm seeing are anti-sodomy laws (struck down, thank goodness), anti-sex toy laws, anti-contraception laws... These are not liberal-lead proposals, as far as I know.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
You don't live in Alabama,
do you?
Naw, I don't,
but I suggested relief in the form of a contraband network
! quaoar can be our point man.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
RE: In what respect?
I thought today it was your turn to try and read everything literally (as in the posts below). I have highlighted the key words above to make the original statement a little more obvious.
So, given the spat of so called sex scandels brought up by Democrats against Republicans in recent years, just who is looking into whom's bedrooms?
It was a joke, nothing more.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Which sex scandals
were driven by Democrats, eh? If we want to go literal: nearly all of them have been driven by arrests, not Nancy Pelosi with a pair of binoculars. ;)
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Who is it that wants to dump Iraqi Prime Minister Malaki?
Well, besides me that is. I'm referring to the recent push by the Washington press and some within the Bush Administration who have just this week called for his removal. Now, trying to put Ayad Allawi in as PM, that's just scary. Here's a guy who could only be in an official Iraqi capacity when he was named as acting PM by the US prior to elections. He's CIA through and through & the Iraqi's don't trust him because they know it too.
Glenn discusses some of the beltway corruption here
. Apparently, one of the biggest "Experts" who has recently made the Op-Ed's and Talking Heads shows, Philip Zelikow, is now employed by Barbour Griffith & Rogers who:
"CNN yesterday disclosed that the most powerful GOP lobbying firm, run by former GOP Party Chair Haley Barbour and staffed by key former Bush national security officials, is being paid by Allawi to coordinate these anti-Maliki, pro-Allawi efforts."
Put on your hip waders and read through the Salon article. You'll be appalled too.
Why Don't Hispanics Beg?
Byran Caplan asks this question
at EconLog today.
You know, I never thought about it.
He might have a point.
You know, I think it is an intereting question.
His observation is consistent with my personal experiences. I have no idea why this is the case, though. I will say that I think it speaks well of them as a group.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4In my experience
It's for a few key reasons (if I can get a way with the same level of generalizations as the article does ;}).
1) Their needs are simple. For the extremely poor, a few items from the Mexican bakery cost maybe a dollar, and can suffice for the day. Tortillas are simple and cheap to make at home. Secondhand clothing is fine. Entertainment is hanging out with friends and family, watching the children play. Healthcare is for free from the local charity clinics or the emergency room. Other financial burdens like auto insurance (or auto inspections or drivers licenses or whatever) are ignored or blackmarketed; if you get caught, well, you just go to jail for a week to two or whatever is normal for the area.
2) They don't mind working. If a job comes along, they will take it. The only time I've seen any issue with this is when men take jobs they perceive as women's work. They don't seem to like that much but will do it until something better comes up.
3) Their family ties are indeed strong, and if they have family here, they both share with and take from that family as their needs and circumstances change.
We have some Hispanic beggars here, but it is usually the infirm who do so. The hale are hanging on the street corner looking for work, not for a handout.
hmmmm ... now that I think about it!
but I'll tell you, as a woman? I resent ANY able-bodied male asking me for money -- to my mind, men should have more pride -- if you can stand around begging, you can stand around handing out flyers for a business, e.g.
I used to be more soft-hearted, or a bigger chump?, but after a beggar spit on me? I turned cold, and cold I've stayed, and instead turned to contributing to local food kitchens, etc., which are more effective, and targeted.
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
Disagree pretty strongly,
and I think one of the comments below, by someone named greenpagan, nails it:
I'm a little suspicious of broad generalizations like in the second sentence, but it's a better explanation than what Caplan suggests, given the first sentence. Caplan's trying to discuss a very distinct phenomenon - poor Hispanics living in the United States - and create a universal theory about Hispanics, who live many places other than the United States. That's quite a weak line of reasoning.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I don't see that
I think Caplan means Hispanics is the US...period. I think his question is strictly about that group.
Can't agree:
These are statements about a broad cultural group, not about a broad cultural group in a particularly narrow context. That it's demonstrably false outside the United States makes this kind of conclusion extremely suspect.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
RE: Disagree pretty strongly,
You state that he is "discussing a very distinct phenomenon" AND "creating a universal theory about Hispanics" in the very same sentence and then go on to call his reasoning skills week? Hmm.
Just an observation, I'm not trying to make some grand claim here, just discussing this unique set of statements.
I didn't get the impression that the discussion was about anything BUT Hispanics in the US, but maybe that is just me.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Um... yeah.
I'm not sure what's objectionable about this. I'm arguing he's making a grand, broad claim ("Hispanics are X") about something that is actually small and distinct (what he really should say is "Hispanics living as a minority group in a non-Hispanic country are X"). These are not the same thing, and they do not lead to the same conclusion.
Maybe your reading skills need some polishing?
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I don't think so.
I, and apparantly John as well, took his comments to be restricted to the case of Hispanics in the US. You are the one trying to impart something to his meaning that I don't believe was intended.
This is the essence of taking someone's statement out of context. Here I believe the "context" was intended to be Hispanics within the US.
Hispanics outside the US never even entered my mind after reading his piece until you brought them up.
It could be my reading skills, I suppose, but then John seems to have the same affliction.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Take another look:
Really? You see that line and instinctively think "he says Hispanics, but even though there's nothing in his post to merit it, I'll just assume that he really means 'Hispanics who live as minorities within the United States', because that sounds like a reasonable assumption on my part"?
Sorry: by any reasonable reading of the English language, his post is clearly intended to make an argument about cultural values (or is the following line, about Hispanics being more family-oriented, also supposed to mean "Hispanics living as minorities within the United States are family-oriented"?)
Use some common sense here. The author of the post is attempting to make a broad statement about cultural values, and he's talking out of his posterior. You know what a legitimate claim might look like? A comparison of why U.S. Hispanics (allegedly) don't beg, but non-U.S. Hispanics (allegedly) might. That at least would sound like a semi-competent analysis if you want to go the culture route.
edited to remove some ad hominem zingers. They were unnecessary distractions.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
come on , pico
If think it's also clear that Caplan was thinking out loud and spiff-balling a bit. He even asks what other think about his loose observation. He's not writing a position paper. Give him a break.
Understood,
and it wouldn't have turned into such a long comment thread if it weren't for the obtuseness of another member here. ;)
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
WTF do you mean by that?
Please illustrate in each of my posts in this thread where I am being "obtuse".
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4RE: Take another look:
I don't know, maybe my short-term memory is longer than the average goldfish (5 seconds)? I suspect John's is as well.
Given the context setting that he provided in the very opening paragraph, yes I believe that is it reasonable to assume that the context is Hispanics in the US. Here is the first paragraph with the clues highlighted to make this easier:
All of these statements are relative to Hispanics in America, are they not? So that sets the context for the discussion that follows, does it not?
You may not consider this to be a reason to "just assume that he really means 'Hispanics who live as minorities within the United States', because that sounds like a reasonable assumption on my part", but I think that anyone with a short-term memory in excess of a goldfish would.
My common sense here tells me that you just want to see what you want to see and seek to justify it. As I said, both John and I had the same reaction: the author is discussing Hispanics in the US. YMMV.
I'm not sure why you want to attack this piece anyway, it was a favorable piece about Hispanics, wasn't it? Do you have a problem with people writing good things about Hispanics?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Let me put this another way
since you're being intentionally dense here:
Whatever conclusions the author draws have nothing to do with Hispanicness but with Hispanicness in relationship to something in America. Can we agree on that, at least?
But the only conclusions the author comes to attempt to define them as Hispanic traits without a discussion of that necessary other side of the equation. What are the particularities of the American experience that (allegedly) make Hispanics dislike begging, when (allegedly) they're just fine with it elsewhere?
You know why he doesn't address them? Because he's trying to make a claim about Hispanicness. Do you see what I'm saying now?
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
RE: Let me put this another way
Personally I think that you are way over analyzing a simple observation and an off the cuff hypothesis as to the cause.
And I am not being intentionally dense. I believe what I wrote and I think that reasonable people can (as opposed to will or must) read the piece as I have described. I posit as anecdotal evidence that both John and I independently had the same reading (which means that at least one reasonable person did so, you can choose who!).
Well, strictly speaking (and I am not just trying to be flippant), since my reading of the piece doesn't include any concept of "Hispanicness outside the context of America" it is actually hard for me to agree with this. You can see why, right?
The most I can agree with is it has to do with "Hispanicness inside America" which is subtly different from your statement, I believe, because there is no notion of a comparison between the inside and outside America that your statement seems to suggest.
If all you mean by "in relationship to something in America" is that the people the author is talking about are in America, then I agree.
You are taking a statement from a commentor (i.e. that there are lots of Hispanic beggars outside of America) and making that a statement or intent of the author? I don't think that the author actually said anything about the begging or non-begging habits of Hispanics outside of America, did he?
I truly don't believe that the author put the level of thought and analysis into this post that you seem to think.
EDIT:
Do you read this piece as a good statement about Hispanics or a hit piece on Hispanics? I didn't get any sense of a hit piece by my reading.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Make it three
I got the same impression, or made the same assumption: he was speaking only about Hispanics in the US. And my comment is limited to that group as well.
well, pico
If I'm to see your point in some way, I still have to say this and possibly clarify what Caplan may mean:
Caplan very well may be referring to attributes that could also apply to Hispanics in their own country....however:
It's perfectly reasonable for Caplan to say that such attributes generally keep them from begging HERE...while socio-econo-conditions at home may not be good enough to prevent it from happening there.
IOW, these positive attributes coupled with a little more opportunity here keep them from begging while many native-born americans would sooner beg than be as resourceful as the hispanics....resourcefulness that may be futile back home since even Hispanics have their limits when facing poverty.
Is that better?
I'd agree with that completely -
I think that's a reasonable way of putting it.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
Going a step further with that
I was reading an article the other day by a libertarian scholar on global development.
He made a very simple observation:
There's no native deficiency in certain peoples that prevents them from succeeding. It's the collective socio-economic climate formed by its governmental mechanisms.
He points to poor immigrants who came here in the past from Russia, Mexico, China, Post-war southern Italy, Potato-famine-stricken Ireland, South America, Africa and the Middle East and who, for the most part, were productive and made a good life for themselves or at least a decent one with which they could provide for a family and raise good children.
His point is that the problem was in those countries and that conditions beyond there control prevented them from doing what they could freely do here as long as they had the will to work and they did.
I believe another argument he was making, and one that I agree with, is that attempts to help poor people in other countries should always center on direct private investment coupled with helping those countries enact reforms that liberalize the economies and laws so people and business can work together to help themselves for mutual advantage...a great idea that we implement but are still trying to promote here to higher levels...at least some of us are.
Agreed (with a caveat)
Sometimes these conditions are lack of resources (whether it is education, natural resources, or economic resources) rather than the 'governmental mechanisms'. I do think governments can play a role, but it is not always just government structure (i.e. economic policies/regualtion).
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Disagree with a caveat
I understand what you mean by people being educated and having resources and all that and I believe they are important...but history shows that this isn't true.
Many countries like Russia and many Africa countries are brimming with abundant natural resources and natural wealth while never achieving great wealth for its people...while countries like England and Holland have always been small and had very limited resources but been very wealthy. (heck, look at Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore) And the colonies and empires came AFTER this wealth was created so that doesn't apply.
On education, that doesn't really matter either. America became an industrial powerhourse in the 19th century with a very uneducated work force.
No, what matters are legal integrity for rights, money and property and freedom for people to engage in voluntary exchange. Investment is scant when the legal infrastructure abd government are corrupt and don't inspire confidence for investors to build business.
We had this in the 19th century and Britain and Holland, for example, before us....even the Romans and Greeks had it by ancient standards.
The things you mention like vast education and other social goods come after the society and economy can afford it and then they can do it well.
We cannot judge the current needs of these countries by our lofty standards. These people need work and sustenance...and for that to happen, investors need a stable and transparent environment within which to engage in business and know that their assets and capital are not subject to ruin and confiscation from corrupt politicians, petty laws and revolution from oppression from corrupt governments.
You can't "plan" this development. You can only hope these countries loosen up and allow development to take its course. Third world countries lack this and that is why they remain poor and oppressed. China is coming out of this and stable wealth creation from confident businesses is the ONLY WAY this happens. As China becomes wealthier, the demands and tastes from its people will push the country further toward modernity....so long as the government continues to allow it to happen.
About to go home
from the office so I do not have time to write a substansive reply. But just a little taste:
Many historical circumstances surrounding Europe's rise in comparison with many of the countries you mentioned are in play. It is a little too simplistice to say free-markets created these countries since in many instances imperialism (epsecially for Britain and Holland) played a larger role in their rise than free-trade. Free resources from other countries and then turning around and selling these products to a dependent consumer (the colonized) will make any country rich quick. Not free-trade in the least.
With the game's rules already in motion, you may be correct (as in China), but as the game was created (mostly by those countries that are economically advantaged now) your argument falls apart.
Again, I think other factors are just as if not more important than just trading policies and governmental mechanisms (though those are not to be scoffed at by any means).
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Upon further examination
you will find that what I said is true:
A truly free society bolstered by integrity of the law toward all is the cornerstone of the rise from poverty to wealth.
All other developments are subordinate to this.
And bad governments that cause unrest and stunt investment are the number one enemy of their peoples.
You will find bad economic and social policies and corrupt, power sapping politicians at the heart of third world problems.
Looking at the rise of economic powers and wealthy nations through any other lens is simply avoiding this integral and basic point. The Buck starts here.
These ideas, truly begun and expanded in Britain, were the result of centuries of evolving though going back to the Greeks.
And upon further examination
I think you need to read more history books (with all due respect) :-).
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
I've read more of them than I can remember
come on.
Books from Left and Right and everywhere in between have crossed by night stand...so to speak. Not just history but economic thought, globalization critiques and promotions and the like.
Just because my full experience has given conclusions that have evolved into something different from your POV, there's no need to suggest I should "read more history books".
Besides, I thought you were going to give me a thoughtful response like you indicated earlier.
I just got home and came to have a look and this is what I find? Bummer.
I kind of have my hands full at the moment
with no time to dig up information.
I gave you a good enough response (imperialism) which you basically ignored. How can you bring up Greeks and Romans and free-trade in the same post? How much sense does that make? Some things just are not 'get gov. out of economics = strong society'. Sorry, history is a lot more complicated than that.
I have to go to bed now. Hopefully I will write a longer reply tomorrow with citations, but I wish you would respond to my post above about imperialism (and not rights or free-trade) as the guiding factor in many of the countries you use as examples, but I guess you will ignore history.
Good night.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
The heart of third world problems is often in the first world
The colonial era and the way the colonial powers managed the tropics (with their natural resources) has a lot to do with the state of the third world
tip of the ice berg
and ultimately not the major factor.
the persistent problems that still plague them are home grown.
Genocide tends to be a major factor
Colonialism was responsible for many millions of murders and reordered the living conditions in the tropics so it was more vulnerable to disease. It also set up an history of military rule which has been perpetuated by arms sales by those same first world countries (who continues to use those countries as proxies in their various wars.
Home grown, sure. But there were plenty of outsiders planting and watering of that garden.
before we get sidetracked
let's just remember where this tangent started and what it was about. I don't deny any of that but, in the end, keeping the focus on that part of history detracts from the real lingering problem.
colonialism, imperialisdm and past oppression and the harm they did are deplorable but it simply cannot be used to explain away the corruption and poor policies that continue to plague these nations.
Colonialism didn't end, it just changed its face
Foreign trade with much of the the third world still has echoes of colonialism. I recall that flash movie you linked to and I don't think that doing business with the folks who use force to steal other people's goods, labor and freedom is in line with that view of libertarianism. If it is, feel free to correct me.
If it ISN'T a free market, and that world market is so heavily intertwined with our own, how is our market, dependent at it is on a form of receiving stolent goods, any more free? Sure, WE have the right to sell or not sell as we choose, but as long as we are feeding our economy with the labor of those who do not, are we not strengthening this very highly sub-optimal (for these countries) economies that you are talking about?
I heard someone say
yesterday.
That historically terrorism is a consequence and a response to colonialism.
I'm only half stupid
Terrorism and Colonialism
There is certainly a relationship, but I don't think it is all encompassing. How does that explain the bombings and shooting by anti-abortion extremists? Or would you say that it is part of the legacy of the civil war?
Again,
I acknowledge all your points and they are somewhat relevant in appreciating the history behind these peoples BUT all this talk doesn't substitute for my point.
The economic issue here is a lingering problem because of corrupt governments and bad self-impoverishing policies.
Dictatorial rule, domestic oppression and bad laws and policies that ignore basic rights to self and property are keeping progress from taking place. Economic development needs willing investors and a socio-economic climate that inspires confidence for new business is a prerequisite to this.
Like I said, the biggest enemies are home grown oppressive regimes that enable atrocities and bad practices in exchange for their own enrichment.
Sadly many are led to counter this with oppressive socialist dictators that do just as much harm.
Look up economic freedom and government corruption indexes and you'll that these third world countries rank very, very low.
RE: Again
And I don't disagree that economic freedom go from third world to second and first world state, I just think that it is a bit naive to think that the trade policies of those first world countries don't reenforce thost corrupt regimes.
Slave plantations would be much more efficient for all if they freed everybody, but the folks buying from the slave masters don't have the moral high ground. They may be less responsible than the slavers, but they are certainly more responsible than the slaves.
It WILL take the people of those countries to get their freedom, but we could trade less with their oppressors, or at the very least be a bit less patronizing until we do.
Agreed!
for the sake of argument let's tag it as a legacy of the civil war.
I'm only half stupid
Except that
You forget that many poor immigrants who came to this country, came here at a time when government programs were available to give then some bootstraps to lift themselves up by. Many immigrants were offered opportunities to homestead, or to work on farms, to help them get started, all incentives offered by govt programs and tax payer dollars to help create an integrated and civil society.
The Homestead Act
Immigrants could come here and with govt sanctioned programs get aid, by way of working farms, or homesteading to help them get established.
After WWll Elanor Roosevelt helped displaced persons from labor camps immigrate to the US, with the kind hands of govt programs that helped them get established in this country.
My neighbor is one of these people and she will be forever grateful to the US military and the US govt for liberating her family from the Russian labor camps and bringing them to a farm to work for a year, so that they could start a new life, at the behest of the human rights efforts of Eleanor Roosevelt and her good govt programs.
I'm only half stupid
Agree and disagree
You are correct that he does draw a shady universal from a particular, but the issue of context may play a larger role here.
I think the context of the article does set up the alternative interpretation that he was specifying Hispanics in the U.S. (from the title and several of the preceding lines people have already addressed here). Your interpretation is valid though also, in that he does not specify this group in the comment in question and perhaps is making a larger statement about hispanics in general. Both sides have a legitimate argument here.
The lesson: be more careful with language especially concerning groups. A simple qualifier at the beginning of the sentence would have solved this problem.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
The Billy Madison award
Text of the award: what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
This month's winner: this gem
from Redstate.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
What is it that you object to?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Pretty much everything
Although they fixed one of my favorite typos: "Is it logical to allow a "bloodbath" to materialize when you can prevent it?" used to read "when you can permit it?"
The McNabb analogy is just off: Rush wasn't "only" non-PC to call out McNabb, he was wrong on the football merits.
Chasing down terrorists wherever they hide regardless of whether the local tyrant approves strikes me as a good idea. I used to think Republicans were in favor of that sort of thing.
Saying someone should ask Obama why he thinks winning isn't a good option is stupid; of course we all want to win but "clap louder" isn't gonna get it done. Crafting a strategy to accomplish the mission goal would -- too bad that was botched for 4 years.
Obama apparently is planning to have troops in Iraq until 2010 at least, while we're supposed to know in a few weeks if the surge "succeeded" at which point Bush will draw down troops. Somehow Bush is preventing bloodshed and Obama enabling it.
Rwanda doesn't apply -- the number of UN troops was small and they didn't do very much to stop the killing. I like to think with a lot more troops and with US forces we could be a bit more effective if Iraq suddenly turned into Rwanda.
But it won't -- there is no reason to suppose the struggle to claim as much of the material resources in Iraq will lead to genocide. It's even possible, if perhaps optimistic, that our draw-down in forces might catalyze political progress.
The whole stab-in-the-back and biased MSM themes are pretty tired, of course, but that's standard-issue at RS these days.
Finally, the idea that the media is playing up Obama because they want a black candidate is insultingly dismissive of Obama's experience and skills. It's borderline bigoted to suggest he's a contender because he's black. Especially when you stack his experience, his rhetorical ability, and his knack for bipartisan compromise up against the paper-thin Republican field: the 9/11 cartoon, the liberal panderer, and the actor who played a Senator.
I'm not saying anyone has to support Obama, but this is a laughable dismissal of his candidacy.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
RE: Pretty much everything
No offense intended, but this is a typical blue bar interpretation and it is completely false.
Rush's comment didn't "call out McNabb" as in "attack McNabb in some way or accuse McNabb of not being a decent QB." That interpretation completely misses the point of Rush's comment. Rush was calling out the media, not McNabb, by in effect accusing THEM of being so PC as to actually be pulling for McNabb rather than being objective.
Was McNabb as good as the media claimed? Perhaps but Rush certainly is entitled to his opinion which WASN'T that McNabb was a total loser or something, only that he wasn't as good as the media were making him out to be.
We are, but that is not the point that the article is trying to make. The article is NOT attacking Obama or his positions at all. It is pointing out that the Democrats and the Media are TOO PC to ever do so.
What does "this is not a reflection on Obama" mean to you?
The entire piece is about trashing the liberal media, not Obama. To do this he simply picks on the Washington Post piece to illustrate the point.
The commentary after each excerpt from the Washington Post piece is merely illustrating how there are plenty of alternative explanations, some of which are hyperbolic for effect, to demonstrate how the Washington Post has gone out of its way to paint a good picture of Obama. This is the essence of the piece in general and is completely consistent with Rush's commentary on McNabb: the media are pulling for the Black candidate/QB to be PC.
That's all.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Disagree
Suggesting McNabb is only a star because the media wanted a black QB to succeed isn't attacking McNabb? It denigrates all of McNabb's accomplishments.
The entire piece is about trashing the liberal media, not Obama.
It's about trashing the supposed liberal media and Obama; come on, read what he wrote. If you still appreciate the piece by all means head over to RS and let them know...
Edit: sigh, that came out a bit harsher than I intended. Sorry, long week.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
RE: Disagree
I have underlined the key word as far as our disagreement goes. I don't believe that Rush ever sad that was the ONLY reason McNabb was where he was. His charge was one of inflation not fabrication.
I don't believe that attacking the liberal media for inflating the reputation of someone like McNabb denigrates all of McNabb's accomplishments. I don't believe that is the intent in any way.
You never answered me above, what does "this is not a reflection on Obama" mean to you?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4As an DIE HARD Eagles fan and
someone who is no fan of Limabaugh's, Rush was right. I've been calling for McNabb's head for years now and feel he's been overrated ever since he signed his big long term deal.
He just hasn't delivered and has gotten a pass on his shortcomings that have held my beloved team back from winning it all.
I remember the wars at the Eagles Message Board between over this.
It's sad to say, but Rush was right. McNabb gets off way too easy.
Which QBs have been consistently better
when healthy the last five years? Peyton, but he wasn't really somebody you wanted in the postseason either.
Anyway, it's a big step to go from McNabb is overrated to McNabb gets a pass from the media because he's black.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
RE: Which QBs have been consistently better
How so?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Because
plenty of white athletes are overrated. Look at the QB one city over, Big Ben is plenty overrated and nobody is saying he got hyped up because he's white.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I don't follow football.
So I can't really comment on who is overrated and who is not. When was the last time you ever heard of the PC police standing up for a white guy? In fact, the PC police would argue that the entire system is rigged in favor of the white guy, so that much seems to be assumed by our culture, right? Stating as much would be redundant, at least as long as you buy into the PC police perspective.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Yeah,
and my brother, some friends and I were commenting last month on the silly outrage story being pushed by ESPN about "not enough Amercian Blacks" in baseball.
HA! What?? Stories of racial oppression were being peddled. Whatever!
They said this because blacks as percentage of players in the MLB was declining to a level that risked being below the percentage of African Americans in the total population.
HELLO!??!
Football? Basketball? So should we be complaining about underrepresentation of whites in these sports since they're about 60-70% of the total population? NO!
Willie Randolph (a black former player) stood right up and told these rebels without a cause to shut up. He knows it's not about race.
Sports is business and they want the best players...black, white, yellow, purple or MARTIAN.
I think it's about geography and culture...PERIOD!
Most blacks live in two places:
the rural and small town South (more open spaces conducive to football) and the biggest, strongest, fastest and best of them play football.
and
Urban areas (with lotsa streetside courts in neighborhoods) where basketball is big and schools have big basketball programs. The best of them get into college and then the best of them get into the NBA.
Basketball and Football also have a lot of black stars that young blacks (and whites too!) admire and strive to imitate.
It's all very simple.
As a result, along with a steady infusion of whites and increased numbers in baseball from the Caribbean and Latin America, blacks' numbers in baseball have diminished...big whoop.
Real racial issues are bad enough. Contrived ones make my blood boil.
Big Ben has won a Super Bowl...
...all McNabb succeeded in doing is vomiting all over himself in the Super Bowl.
;-}
Sorry... Die Hard Stillers Fan here...
I survived the Bush Administration
That's because Ben did something McNabb can't do....
stay out of his own way and let his team win.
9/21, 0, 2, 123 yards
I rest my case =)
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Did he kill his team?
I rest mine.
Yes, he did
They just happened to be playing Seattle, who racked up all of 10 points.
Of course if NE had scored 10 points McNabb would have his SB win too, and with much better stats than Big Ben.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
By the way
it's great to see more people here who care about sports! We've been a bit lacking in that department, in my ever so humble opinion.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I'm a sports nut
But I won't participate in this convo because I am nauseated by John's lack of appreciation for his team's success :-p Try being a Browns fan! Try having Tim Couch as your quarterback for years on end. Try barely even sniffing the playoffs in over a decade. Try having a top 5 pick in the draft every year and never having any of those picks amount to anything. Try watching Jamal Lewis rush for 300 yards in one game on your defense.
When the worm turns and the Browns dynasty arises like a phoenix from the ashes, there's going to be a lot of fans around the league that are really going to have something to cry about!
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
That's nothing
Try being a Saints fan -- 40 years of futility.
qui tacet consentire
It's all relative, Skymutt
If the Browns had a team like the Eagles have over the last 8 years or so and the expectations that go with it, you'd feel the same way.
I was thrilled to see the Eagles turn things around after hitting rock-bottom in the late 90s for a few years, don't get me wrong. But then to have a team like that fail every year and under-deliver while lesser teams pop up for a year or two, beat them and fade fade away is really frustrating.
In terms of consistency and strength, the Eagles have been the class of the NFC for most of this decade and a virtual equal on paper to NE...but what do they have to show for it?
My attitude is that you just have to enjoy...
...the individual wins in the individual games. Any fan who's lucky enough to root for a consistently winning team should be thankful. Championships are just a bonus-- in a 32-team league, your team can win its share and only win once every 32 years.
I kind of enjoy rooting for a loser. The best games are the ones where they upset one of those blessed teams that are always on top.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
hahaha!
You forgot your sarcasm tag.
heh
I survived the Bush Administration
Hey I was deadly serious about that! :-)
Look out this year in fact... this could be the year where it all comes together!
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
Two different ball games
the ebb and flow of each game was unique with very different paces. Personally, I say the PHI-NE SB was played on a much higher level overall and happened to be, on that day, a much more open game...and Brady vs. McNabb was the difference. Remember what Steve Young said.
It really doesn't do that aspect justice when you say "if NE had scored 10 points...."
Ben didn't play that well but he did enough when the game was on the line. Keep in mind he didn't have anywhere near the experience that McNabb did.
Remember, I am an Eagles fan but I call like it is.
1-0
Ben's record in Super Bowls.
I rest my case.
It's not about stats... it's about wins.
His won-loss record in the regular season is 27-11. In playoffs, it is 5-1.
32-12
It's all about the wins.
I survived the Bush Administration
McNabb is overrated
I have intimate and painful knowledge of my team.
McNabb has always had streaky talent and a great team...or at least strong enough to do better than they did.
They usually lose because of him and win in spite of him.
It's a mantra I've clung to for years now.
Of course, Andy Reid shoulders a lot of blame as well.
He has one SB appearance to speak of and that was with TO and when the Eagles were so much better than the rest of the NFC that they couldn't help get there by default. His 3 int's and missed chances against NE in a game they could have won speaks volumes.
Steve Young was very candid after the game and from a QB's perspective said what I felt during the game:
And I paraphrasing:
I was a QB and at field level the whole game. So I can relate to McNabb's POV during this game. His INT's were inexcusable. He didn't even see WIDE OPEN WR's that would have salivated to throw to....especially TO. He threw 10 balls to TO and TO caught 9 of them. He should have thrown to him TWENTY TIMES HE WAS SO WIDE OPEN AND MCNABB NEVER SAW HIM. HE BLEW IT!
Sadly, this assessment quietly goes unnoticed all season. Why? You tell me. Is it because he's black and the media and the NFL are being overly charitable because of it when they wouldn't be to someone who was white?
It's been almost 6 years since McNabb threw that final INT into the chest of a waiting Aneas Williams in St. Louis in the 2001 NFC Championship. I felt bad for McNabb and the team. They were heavy underdogs and fought hard to beat the Bucs and then Bears in Chicago. McNabb had a great playoff run that year.
Since then, he's been on a plateau and under-delivering and making the same season killing mistakes with the Eagles in mainly favored roles.
I ask you:
Look at who's gone thru from NFC all this time and look at the teams and the QB's that have taken the Eagles' place in the SB. Did they have better teams? No way. CAROLINA?? Did they have better QB's?? Supposedly not.
But those QB's: Dilfer, Delhomme and Warner got past the Eagles and into the Big Game and few think they're better than McNabb or that they had better teams to bolster them, Not to mention Hasslebeck 2 years ago and Grossman last year.
I think we as fans
have a tendency to remember the lows and forget the highs (what about 4th and 26?) and to place excessive weight upon the performance of the QB.
I agree that McNabb has flaws but I think it's just silly to suppose he's boosted by the media because he's black.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
I give credit
to any QB that can bring a team to the superbowl. Plummer was a QB whose team won in spite of him, but it takes more than luck to get to the big game. No way Plummer was going to pull it off.
How do his (McNabb's) stats compare to other QBs in the league the last few years?
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Here's one ranking
Stats for top QB seasons 1995-2006
. McNabb is fourth overall and is the next player besides Peyton and Warner to appear twice.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Good evidence
that he is not overrated at all (maybe underrated given all the overrated talk I usually hear). Thanks for the stats.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Well, John is right that the playoffs matter,
and the Eagles have often underperformed their (lofty) expectations. But only so much of that is on McNabb.
For example, Brady isn't on that list at all and yet he's often ranked in the top five (or higher) among NFL QBs because NE won those SBs.
However, when you compare McNabb's postseason stats with Brady's, it's surprisingly close. Brady completes 60.6%, with 20 TDs and 9 INTs; McNabb is 59.4%, 18 TDs, 12 INTs, plus averaging 5.7 yards rushing.
Peyton, clearly the best QB during the regular season the last several years at least, has 61.0%, 18, 15 numbers in the playoffs.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Brady v. McNabb says a lot
Brady, like Elway, never had the greatest numbers. But he was efficient and never killed his team the way McNabb has. Brady made his team better with a clear head and few errors...especially when it mattered.
To my friends, I've always compared the resumes of PHI and NE over the past 7 years as a difference in QB (and coaching). I've even argued that the Eagles were BETTER on paper most that time but their potential was squandered while NE made the most of it. Brady had a lot to do with that...especially at crucial moments. McNabb was on the negative end of a lot of equally crucial moments. That's the difference...along with Belicheck's (sp?) management.
As a real fan, I would honestly say that McNabb was like Elway before Elway got a better supporting cast...but it's NOT TRUE so I can't.
McNabb was not the one man show that Elway was when Denver got pounded by better teams in the late 80's. McNabb has been in the position of Elway with a strong cast or Brady. They raised their teams, McNabb let his down.
he either LET them win, or MADE them lose.
Stats Shmats
Separate his playoff stats and look at those numbers that reflect high stakes games.
His great games in the cool sun of October and November are great but they matter little when the cold, harsh high=stakes reality of January sets in.
Wow, high standards
For a guy who likes measurements, you sure dismissed those failry quickly.
There are, what, 30? teams in the league, and you are going to base a quaterback on solely if he wins the big one? That means there is only 1 good QB per year.
I guess Marino sucked too then, eh?
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Let's consider, Specter
I didn't dismiss anything. In fact, I'm being very precise. I won't let general stats mask the targeted problem.
Marino never had a running game and had a very suspect defense....besides Marino's team was always clearly overshadowed by clearly better teams.
The Eagles haven't fit that mold. They've had the talent and the team and have lost stupidly.
I'm confused
so you say that McNabb stinks regardless of his good stats b/c he never won the big one. Then you give excuses why Marino never won without criticizing whther or not he ever won the SB. Correct?
Again, what is your measurement? Stats? Superbowl? What?
To be consistent, you'd have to say either stats are a good indicator of a good QB or that Marino also sucked. Which is it?
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Actually, I'm being very consistent
The main theme I've presented, if you reread carefully is that McNabb has not made the most of the opportunities he's had or even close.
Stats are fine. But I said to look at his playoff stats. That will paint a different picture.
Great stats and records mean little if the QB fizzles during playoff time...not that the team hits a wall and can do no more...but that the QB does.
This is how I view McNabb.
Like I said, I've always thought very highly of the Eagles as a whole team and feel they've had the talent to do more than they did. And having watching practically every single game during McNabb's tenure, I feel the subtle but clear truth is that HE has let his team down...a team that could have done better with someone else.
And remember, Reid's aversion to running and silly play calling didn't help. I hold him almost as responsible.
Now that Reid stopped calling plays and the team started running more, they were able to get conference semis last year with a team that pales in comparison to past teams (mainly because of a depleted D)....and they did it without McNabb.
My only regret during that great run last year was that the birds couldn't get past NO. What a tough game. We win that game at the Linc. The crowd noise was deafening and the Eagles were running out of gas with a lot of defensive injuries. The silent count took away a crucial step from the OL but we almost won anyway. Still, I have to wonder if Reid was calling the plays in the 4th quarter when the Birds had 2nd and 1 inside the 3 and passed their way to a FG that was ultimately the difference in the game.
McNabb was probably relieved because he was getting a lot of heat in Philly with Garcia winning with the same team he was losing a lot of close games with earlier in the year and a weaker team than McNabb had in the past.
Fans were openly questioning his real worth....finally.
Good discussions.
I think we can all now agree that
Joe Montana is God.....at least he was a football god.
Joe was great
Can't say a bad thing about him.
Ok,
so you are saying that McNabb is not worthy of the Eagles because of his playoff performance. That must mean the Eagles kicked butt pre-McNabb right? Or did McNabb actually improve the team? Let's find out:
Hmm. Pre-McNabb, Eagles suck in the playoffs. With McNabb, Eagles do better(not perfect, but better) in the playoofs. I think you have to look at the entire picture before making such comments as the Eagles would be better without McNabb. It seems you are asking a lot and criticizing unfairly.
Again, I am a Broncos fan. I know the pain of getting close to the crown and losing multiple times. But really, you have to appreciate any team that 1) gets to the playoffs in recent years, 2) gets to the playoffs multiple times, 3) is a superbowl contender, and 4) that won their division in recent years.
It looks like you do not respect a good team that would be much worse off (as shown by their history) without its current quarterback.
I am not vested in McNabb in the least, so I will end this conversation here.
Go Broncos!
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Heh, was already doing that
while you posted this -- see above.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
caption this photo
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I have been watching very closely ...
and your elections seem fair to me!
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4See how his mouth moves when I pull this string!
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4lol, that was pretty good,
especially given the position of Chavez's hand. Well done.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
haha good one man!
Carter is such a tool...
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
My caption....
Jeemee my friend, look at what I'm doing. Why didn't you try theez theengs when you were in charge. It works, man.
Carter: chuckle, chuckle, yeah,
(under his breath):
I'm a leftist with some nice ideabut I'm not a dictator...sorry
heh
you are too charitable to that fool :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
perhaps,
but I don't despise Carter as you do. I feel he's a genuinely good man who meant well and means well and tried to lead by good example and thrift when he was president. He wasn't a heavy spender either.
Granted, I don't have to agree with the totality of his views to say that...because I don't agree. I think he's flawed in some of conceptions on how to enact positive change.
But it must said that the man did receive a rocky economy still mired in stagflation and certainly did not do anything to make it worse. If anything, his lack of commitment to massive monetary intervention made Friedman's monetary prescriptions yield their targeted results faster...though that still took time.
And the Iran Hostage crisis was not his fault either. His efforts to make peace in Israel were commendable too though they didn't work...sadly.
"No, I'm sorry, my country does not need peanuts right now..."
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
not bad :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Just for fun
1. "Scratch a little higher, now to the left, yeah right there . . . ah."
2. "Only a little longer, comrade, and we will make those dirty capitalists pigs pay, eh?"
3. "This huge tie is styling!" (Guy in the back right--what the hell is that thing?)
Ok, not very good, but worth a shot. Did I mention it was just for fun?
I noticed the picture already has a caption, "CarterisanIdiot", if you place the mouse over it. I give it a D- for creativity and a C for humor.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
That isn't a tie---
it's a guy's arm in front of that guy.
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
No fun
But it matches his collar so well! (That is a collar isn't it?)
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
heh
I gave it that caption :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I know
that is why I graded you. :-)
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Couey sentenced to death in FL;
someday, years away ...
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
haha another gem from dkos
Our “Outdoor Bamboo Shower” Water Conservation Project.
I'd advise them to only shower when it rains which is another water conservation idea I just came up with on the spot.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I think some of them must already use that method.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4i hear ya
dfhs!
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Sounds like kinda a cool idea to me :-)
Although once you read this:
...it kind of makes water conservation seem a bit pointless for most of us...
skymutt: accept no substitutes!
that's interesting to know! thanks n/t
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Yeah, why am I bothering
to shut off the sink faucet while brushing my teeth? Sheesh.
Another interesting stat, given our recent conversation about vegetarianism:
I'm edging closer and closer to the precipice...
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
But Steak tastes good, lettuce doesn't. :)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Sigh. You are correct.
Backing away from the precipice again.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
We may have our differences ...
but I'll try not to let you do anything really stupid! He he. :)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4lol, I may give it up one day,
but never fish and highly doubtful on the chicken. I have my limits, after all.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
I feel no guilt
about both eating steak and not shutting water off while brushing my teeth!
I love running water - it makes everything so much cleaner :) Trust me, you don't want to become a dfhippy for the sake of making a .0000000000001% difference in US water consumption.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I was raised frugally in the 1960's, and I
still shut off the water while brushing, and turn off the lights; I never open the fridge door wide and take my time mulling over a snack -- etc. -- it's automatic/ingrained -- because it all costs ME money.
My parents were 1st generation immigrants here .. rather late in life, and not knowing the language, were initially limited to blue collar jobs -- and being from the European war front, deprivation was familiar, customary ---
Oh my, I just recalled their Saturday Night Bath ritual -- my mom would bathe first, and my dad would bathe in her water --- all to save money --- the water heater was then powered by coal, and coal cost money, of course; that may sound strange today, but that's how it was :)
And because they worked so hard, and saved so intensely -- they went from renters, to landlords, and they enjoyed too few! but very good years in this blessed country, and left a good and decent legacy to their children, but I'm biased :)
Just another perspective!
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
I can understand that
and of course if you need to live frugally out of financial considerations then using less energy/water is understandable and rational.
I am mainly talking about conservation from those who can afford to pay for the resources that we are not running out of here in US.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
here we go! lol
as if waste for waste's sake is now ... err, somehow American?
I'm assuming you are a renter, versus a homeowner? am I correct? b/c a homeowner gets a separate water bill, while a renter relies on his landord to incorporate the water costs into the rent. That's one explantation :)
You should be free market happy, happy! if those that can afford it, choose otherwise, that's just more for you! hehe
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
it doesn't matter
if I rent or not since I pay for the water anyways, separately or not.
I am not talking about waste for waste's sake but rather paying for the resources that I can afford to use for my own personal pleasure without need to sacrifice. I wouldn't want to inconvenience myself needlessly.
Of course I don't care if others want to "conserve resources", watch themselves in order not to waste anything, etc. Those concerns are just not as important to me. So yeah, it's all about the free market and if I can afford it, I don't want liberals treading on me, trying to force their lifestyle on me. I sure as hell am not interested in forcing my lifestyle on them.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
It's not just water
it is the energy necessary to make that water potable.
Also, fresh water is a limited resource in most of the world and consists of only 1% of all water. Most water is either salt water (which is super-expensive to treat) or frozen (for the time being which will then become salt water).
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
it's not limited in most of US
so I feel on guilt about using as much as I wish since I am paying for it.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Most by population
or by geographical area?
Because water rights is one of the biggest issues west of the continental divide.
In the east it is no big deal. In the desert (you know, the Western half of the U.S.), we face things called 'droughts' every few years.
As a matter of fact, the Colorado river, which used to be the second biggest river in the U.S. and carved out the Grand Canyon, doesn't even flow to the gulf of California anymore. (edit): I see GoRight knew this interesting fact. :-)
Water is a scarce resource no matter what your faucet says. The world doesn't end at Ender's nose.
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
We get fresh water for free ...
every day. It's called rain (and indirectly snow). Every city in the world relies on this as their primary source of water.
Salt water is treated for us for free also every day using eco-friendly Solar power. Global warming should help with this if we have a shortage.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4You know what I hope GR?
I hope we are able to figure out a cheap way to distill ocean water so we can drink it, use it to water crops and run industries. It'd sure be better than using all the river water like we do out here.
RE: You know what I hope GR?
Hmm. I'm not sure exactly how to take this post. This sounds like a rather tongue in cheek response but perhaps my sarcasm detector needs adjusting?
Is this meant as a serious comment or some sort of hidden jab?
I agree, this would be a good thing.
This is the uncertain part of this post for me.
You could be serious here, which would be fine, because California has pretty much sucked up a lot of the rivers in the neighboring states. Unless I am mistaken, most of the Colorado river now goes to California and for the most part it doesn't even make it to the Gulf of Mexico anymore. I agree that it would be nice to have the Colorado river back.
If you are being sly, on the other hand, this could simply be an attempted jab to point to a fresh water source that isn't either rain or snow. My main point above, obviously, is that ALL fresh water ultimately comes from precipitation which is created by Solar generated evaporation. So all of that river water is already coming, for free, from Solar based purification. This is also true of the various ground water sources and aquifers since they too are replenished by either rainfall or snow melt from the mountains.
So, I am now curious, how did you actually intend this post?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Really?
You are a fountain of info. (pun intended). Maybe you can explain the incitracies (sic) of other common knowledge things too, like where babies come from and are lightening bolts really Zeus's doing?
Thanks GR for your insights! :-)
We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
Hey, always happy to help out. :)
Here's a litle more info on how California has been sucking up the Colorado river. It seems that they have been, or at least were, sucking up far more than they were entitled to.
Colorado River Compact
Sharing Colorado River Water: History, Public Policy and the Colorado River Compact
Meanwhile at the end of the line is thirsty southern California. California long has profited from other states not using their full allocations. Conveniently located downriver, California has been diverting unused water apportioned to other states. Although allocated 4.4 maf of Colorado River water, California is using about 5.2 maf in 1997.
Colorado River: Drought and Deadlines
Interior Secretary Gale Norton, making her first appearance before the Colorado River water users, gave California a stern warning. "If the California entities do not sign the Quantification Settlement Agreement (QSA), surplus water to Southern California will be automatically suspended in 2003," said Secretary Norton to a packed house. This warning could mean that cities in populous southern California could lose as much as one-half the water they normally receive from the Colorado River. Secretary Norton said that it's possible that there will be actual reductions in Colorado River aqueducts in January if the QSA is not signed by December 31, 2002.
[...]
The QSA is one of the means for California to reduce it use of Colorado River water from over 5 million acre-feet (MAF) to its entitled 4.4 MAF apportionment under the 1923 Colorado River Compact and subsequent 4.4 Plan.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Lightening (sic) bolts, Specter?
Why would Zeus care about the color or weight of bolts? :) Have you noticed some sort of trend with bolts that the rest of us should be aware of?
Given it is Zeus, however, he is probably using his lightning bolts to effect those changes, eh?
Sorry, my wife pointed this out, actually. We were trying to figure out why you misspelled intricacies (on purpose). I admit that one has us baffled. Could you explain your purpose, please?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Hey, isn't global warming the cure for the water shortage?
I mean, more heat = more evaporation = more rain?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4hmm
Isn't all that water getting recycled back into the ground from those cows? Mostly? It's not like the water is disappearing into a black hole.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
OK, I watched part of one of the videos.
The one where they we constructing their bamboo walls.
I must say, I am a bit ambivolent here because on the one hand I don't mind if these people want to make a bamboo shower and to feel like they are doing something to help the planet, I admit that attitude is a good thing, but on the other hand the way they constructed the thing has more pressure treated lumber than bamboo.
So, I applaud their good intentions but I denounce them as morons for using so much man-made lumber for such a simple project which in the end defeats the purpose (reduces the benefit even further?). They do have the benefit that the grey water can be used to water the bamboo crop, but they could do that from inside the house anyway by simply routing the bathtub/shower drain out there ... although I fear that local plumbing codes may not really allow this.
Anyway, I don't think that this solution to the world's "shower problem" is going to scale up in places like Manhattan. Just a thought.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4I am probably further out there
than you are on all these matters concerning conservation and environment... I just feel such disdain whenever I hear anything related mentioned. Ughhhhhh!
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
I would if I could
Oooh, outdoor showers are fabulous. You have no idea ;}
umm yeah
I don't think so. I am very not-outdoors type.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Well
Outdoor showers tend to be a bit roomier. As in room for two. You don't need to be an outdoors type to enjoy the implications of that!
Even taking a shower alone with the sun shining on you is really quite nice. Plus you can go in and shave without having a steamed up mirror. I really miss that when the weather turns cold. (Been taking nothing but outdoor showers for a few months now. It's great!)
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
See, Lefty
we get it.
hehe! that's b/c Ender lives in that Dump!!
aka New Jersey --- hey Ender -- doncha ever go 'down the shore'? I've had great outdoor showers at the Jersey shore; very refreshing! propriety prevents me from saying more :)
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
umm
I said I lived 1 minute away from NJ border - that does not mean I live in the dump :)
I actually live in the great state of New York which is nowhere near as bad.
And no, I never went down to the Jersey shore... The only beaches I've been on around here are some on Long Island, Fire Island, and Brighton Beach :)
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
all great beaches too!
I assume you know some of the history of Robert Moses and New York? -- he went a little nuts towards the end, too much power for one man, eminent domain run amock, but! public access to beaches was a bright spot
I had the very best time at Brighton Beach! it was like going to a Russian Jewish wedding -- fun! Anthony Bourdain did an episode on NY recently, highlighting it -- I miss that! :)
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
Hmmmm
What's not to like? Warm water, dappled sunshine hitting your skin, a nice gentle breeze, soap suds, maybe some company. . . .
Or under a full moon. . . that's pretty cool too.
We poured a concrete pad specifically for an outdoor shower at our little place in the country. It gets hot there ;}
sounds like a slice of heaven! to
this city girl, Purpleface :) just a bathroom with a window! would be divine too .. the things I took for granted! hehe
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
Great quote by Alan Alda:
From a great interview
over at the Onion AV Club.
Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce
beats my why it's tragic! and reflects
much about America, much less 'the world' --- because presumably? some Dems approached him about a possible run b/c of his name recognition?
[fun fact: the final episode of MASH was viewed by over 50 million Americans -- pre cable, of course]
is Al Franken's Senate campaign tragic? and is 'the world' despairing? oy
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
Yes.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4against whom? Norm Coleman?
1st term Senator, former liberal Democrat, hippy dippy anti-Vietnam war protester, carpet bagger from Brooklyn, New York???
Coleman paid his political dues -- as the Democratic Mayor of St. Paul!, and AG -- only converting to R in '96
John, 8:7 :)
should be an interesting contest!
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
you know about the rumors of Castro's death today
Well this part of the MSNBC article struck me as hilarious... From Rumors that Castro has died excite Miami
:
Hahahahaha
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR