If there ever was a consensus on AGW, it has disappeared.

Promoted by Brendan

From Breaking: Less Than Half of all Published Scientists Endorse Global Warming Theory

Hat tip to the US Senate Committee on the Environment and Public Works. Your tax dollars at work!

In 2004, history professor Naomi Oreskes performed a survey of research papers on climate change. Examining peer-reviewed papers published on the ISI Web of Science database from 1993 to 2003, she found a majority supported the "consensus view," defined as humans were having at least some effect on global climate change. Oreskes' work has been repeatedly cited, but as some of its data is now nearly 15 years old, its conclusions are becoming somewhat dated.

Medical researcher Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte recently updated this research. Using the same database and search terms as Oreskes, he examined all papers published from 2004 to February 2007. The results have been submitted to the journal Energy and Environment, of which DailyTech has obtained a pre-publication copy. The figures are surprising.

Of 528 total papers on climate change, only 38 (7%) gave an explicit endorsement of the consensus. If one considers "implicit" endorsement (accepting the consensus without explicit statement), the figure rises to 45%. However, while only 32 papers (6%) reject the consensus outright, the largest category (48%) are neutral papers, refusing to either accept or reject the hypothesis. This is no "consensus."

The figures are even more shocking when one remembers the watered-down definition of consensus here. Not only does it not require supporting that man is the "primary" cause of warming, but it doesn't require any belief or support for "catastrophic" global warming. In fact of all papers published in this period (2004 to February 2007), only a single one makes any reference to climate change leading to catastrophic results.

So there you have it. Even if we completely accept the contention of a consensus on AGW based on the now famous Naomi Oreskes review, a comparable review of the papers being published in the most recent 3 years suggests that the consensus has evaporated in light of more recent understanding and research.

Schulte's survey contradicts the United Nation IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report (2007), which gave a figure of "90% likely" man was having an impact on world temperatures. But does the IPCC represent a consensus view of world scientists? Despite media claims of "thousands of scientists" involved in the report, the actual text is written by a much smaller number of "lead authors." The introductory "Summary for Policymakers" -- the only portion usually quoted in the media -- is written not by scientists at all, but by politicians, and approved, word-by-word, by political representatives from member nations. By IPCC policy, the individual report chapters -- the only text actually written by scientists -- are edited to "ensure compliance" with the summary, which is typically published months before the actual report itself.

By contrast, the ISI Web of Science database covers 8,700 journals and publications, including every leading scientific journal in the world.

An excellent point. The IPCC report was actually written by a small number of people and the actual part of the report typically quoted in the media was actually written by politicians. Then, after the politicians have had their say the actual scientific chapters are edited to make sure that they don't contradict the politicians version. Yep, that ensures clear and accurate scientific representation to me.

If we follow a few of the links provided in the above mentioned post, we find this little gem:

New Peer-Reviewed Scientific Studies Chill Global Warming Fears

6) A July 2007 review of 539 abstracts in peer-reviewed scientific journals from 2004 through 2007 found that climate science continues to shift toward the views of global warming skeptics. Excerpt: “There appears to be little evidence in the learned journals to justify the climate-change alarm.” (LINK )

Note: I plan to review the above post in more detail in a separate diary.

The link above takes you to the following:

“Consensus”? What “Consensus”?
Among Climate Scientists, the Debate Is Not Over

Abstract

It is often said that there is a scientific “consensus” to the effect that climate change will
be “catastrophic” and that, on this question, “the debate is over”. The present paper
will demonstrate that the claim of unanimous scientific “consensus” was false, and
known to be false, when it was first made; that the trend of opinion in the peer-reviewed
journals and even in the UN’s reports on climate
is moving rapidly away from alarmism;
that, among climate scientists, the debate on the causes and extent of climate change is by
no means over
; and that the evidence in the peer-reviewed literature conclusively
demonstrates that
, to the extent that there is a “consensus”, that “consensus” does not
endorse the notion of “catastrophic” climate change
.

I actually found the paper to be an interesting read. There is much in there to satisfy the contrarians, but at times it does tend to nit pick which will give the AGW advocates something to complain about as well. Read the paper and decide for yourself. The main points that I found interesting in the paper were:

  1. It reviews the history of the nor famous Naomi Oreskes review, her methods, and why they were chosen.
  2. It highlights how Al Gore exaggerated the potential impact of the Arctic and Greenland thaw by about 12,000 percent (yes, 12,000 percent).
  3. What Oreskes actually claimed was that 75% of the abstracts she reviewed either explicitly or implicitly supported the consensus view (which she defined as humans are having some impact on warming, no catastrohpe required), the other 25% took no position, and that none of them disagreed with the concensus position.
  4. The paper then runs through a list of things that Oreskes got wrong, according to her critics, many of which were simply nit picks on how she classified something versus how the critics would classify them.
  5. Apparantly a Dr. Benny Peiser wrote to Science on several occasions to highlight some of the inaccuracies in Oreskes' paper. While initially asking him the revise his text they later simply refused to publish his letter because "After realizing that the basic points of your letter have already been widely dispersed over the internet, we have reluctantly decided that we cannot publish your letter. We appreciate your taking the time to revise it." Supposedly Peiser was careful not to release his findings beforehand.
  6. At the time that Science published Oreskes' paper they had received (and rejected) a research paper giving the results of a survey of 500 international climate scientists which found that "a quarter of respondents still question whether human activity is responsible for the most recent climate changes."
  7. The paper also provides a number of examples of abstracts which appear to contradict Oreskes contention.
  8. The paper provides a nice summary table of Dr. Schulte's results and provides a few of the counter consensual abstracts. *
  9. The paper then goes on to rip James Hansen as an outright scaremonger and provides an updated copy of the graph than Hansen used to kick off the entire debate. ** If one notes the observed data that occur beyond the 1988 date when the graph was prepared you will see that they track very closely to the CO2 Stabilized plot in spite of the fact the CO2 has continued to rise. It's almost as if the extra CO2 didn't matter!
  10. The paper goes on to counter the 2,500 scientists can't be wrong meme for the IPCC report by highlighting a number of errors which were "corrected" after the fact and never reviewed by any of them.
  11. Finally, it also counters the "All leading scientific bodies are in agreement" meme. ***

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

*

Abstracts on ISI Web of Science Oreskes (2004) Schulte’s review
Period under review: 1993 to 2003 2004 to 2007
Quantity of documents reviewed: 928 documents 539 papers
Mean annual publication rate: 84.3 documents.yr –1 254.6 (+201%)
Explicit endorsement of the consensus: Not stated 7% (38 papers)
Explicit or implicit endorsement: 75% 45% (244 papers)
Explicit rejection of the consensus 0% 1.3% (7 papers)
Explicit or implicit rejection: 0% 6% (32 papers)
New data / observations on climate change: Not stated 24% (127 papers)
New research on the consensus question: Not stated 2% (13 papers)
Quantitative evidence for the consensus: Not stated 0% (no papers)
Mention of “catastrophic” climate change: Not stated 0% (one paper)

**

***

The Russian Academy of Sciences and the US Association of State Climatologists are just two of the scientific organizations that have trenchantly expressed serious doubts about the imagined “consensus” on climate change. They have recently been joined by the Administrator of NASA, who has said that it is arrogant to make the Panglossian assumption that today’s climate is the best of all possible climates, and still more arrogant to assume that any of the more or less futile remedial measures which have been advocated will make any significant climatic difference. The Administrator ought to know: for it is his organization that gathers much of the weather data via satellite upon which the rickety edifice of the climate-change “consensus” is constructed.

Comments :

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

How do you sleep at night?

This diary is the most misleading thing I've read yet from you.

First off, this is not a Senate report. This is the equivalent to a partisan political blog. Don't believe me. Why is it on the 'minority side' of the home page ? To try to pass it off as if this is a study completed from our 'tax dollars at work' is completely misleading.

Next, the original report is not a Senate report, but a report published by Michael Asher, the blowhard who tried to make a mountain out of a molehill mistake .

Lastly, look at the data you give. From what I can see, 52% of the published papers either explicitly or implicitly suggest consensus/endorsement. That is already more than half right there. The other big chunk must be the deniers right? No, the next big chunk of studies do not take a position and just gives new data (New data / observations on climate change) at 24%.

So how many papers actually contradict the consensus view? A whopping 7%!

What a farce.

…………

Misleading

Oh, GoRight's post is nothing compared to the other article on global warming on Inhofe's blog. My favorite so far: the big bold statement:

UK officially admits: Global warming has stopped!

Follow the link a few paragraphs down, and you get this:

Natural weather variations have offset the effects of global warming for the past couple of years and will continue to keep temperatures flat through 2008, a study released Thursday said. But global warming will begin in earnest in 2009, and a couple of the years between 2009 and 2014 will eclipse 1998, the warmest year on record to date, in the heat stakes, British meteorologists said.

Our tax dollars at work indeed!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Heh, nice one (nt)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Bad SL! Bad, bad SL! [ wraps nose with rolled up newspaper ]

You're peeking ahead and spoiling my fun!  :)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Re: misleading

I can see how you got that impression but I don't think GoRight was trying to pass it off as anything.

GoRight, can you give me a direct link to the “Consensus”? What “Consensus”? paper?

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Pass what off?

That it was a government-funded study/report (or at least endorsed by our government and paid for by the tax payers)?

He says:

Hat tip to the US Senate Committee on the Environment and Public Works. Your tax dollars at work!

He then goes on to give the link to the 'government' site rather than the original blog link. The article I link to above in my 'molehill' comment discusses this strategy of the conservatives linking to each others' blogs to give them some sense of legitimacy when there is no real story behind them. GoRight is using that strategy here. It seems to give more legitimacy to his argument if he can attribute this to the federal government instead of a partisan blog which is the real source.

Misleading!

………… parent

I read it

as "tax dollars" being a joking reference to the EPW Committee, not the study. YMMV.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Valid interpretation

and I assume this is what GR will fall back on.

My interpretation is just as valid, and from what I garner from the rest of the misleading diary (i.e. the use of statistics to attempt to deny consensus), I think my point has credence.

Also, the lack of a link to the original source, again, suggests I am correct. Just sayin'.

………… parent

You are reading too much into that one statement.

All I meant is that your tax dollars are paying some Senator staffer to run this blog for Inhofe.  This is a blog run by Inhofe's staff I believe.  I guess I could be wrong, but it really IS hosted in the official site for the committee.  Just check the URL.

Oh, AND that I consider this to be a valuable service for once.  :)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

What partisan blog are you talking about?

The DailyTech blog?  So what.  The point isn't where the Inhofe blog pointed to in order to get the information, the point is the information that they got.

Michael Asher is NOT the source of the information, he is simply reporting the information as is Mathew Dempsey.

The source of the data is Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte, an independent researcher who has submitted his results to the journal Energy and Environment.

So, any issues you might have with Michael Asher is irrelevant to the point at hand, and are hereby summarily dismissed.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

I haven't actually found one.

I assume that is because it is still in the process of being published and the Journal wants first rights which is common.

If anyone does, please post it here.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Ha, your funny.

This diary is the most misleading thing I've read yet from you.

I must be monotonically getting worse because you say this about just about everything.  :)

First off, this is not a Senate report. This is the equivalent to a partisan political blog. Don't believe me. Why is it on the 'minority side' of the home page ? To try to pass it off as if this is a study completed from our 'tax dollars at work' is completely misleading.

I never said or even implied it was a senate report.  I gave a hat top to the committee because I found it on their site, a site paid for by US tax dollars.  The fact that it is on the minority side of the site means what, exactly?  That it was placed on the site by a US Senator on the committee who just so happens to be a member of the minority party.  This makes it not an official output from the Senate or this committee somehow?

I am not passing it off as anything.  It is what it is.  I provided the direct links, what more do you want?  Yea, that's really trying to hide something ... providing direct links.

Next, the original report is not a Senate report, but a report published by Michael Asher, the blowhard who tried to make a mountain out of a molehill mistake .

Actually, the study which was the primary point of this diary was conducted by an independent researcher named Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte.  This should have been obvious to anyone actually reading the material.  He is not connected with the Republican Senator as far as I know.  I actually found the Senate site by working backwards from other references to the independent Schulte study.

Lastly, look at the data you give. From what I can see, 52% of the published papers either explicitly or implicitly suggest consensus/endorsement. That is already more than half right there. The other big chunk must be the deniers right? No, the next big chunk of studies do not take a position and just gives new data (New data / observations on climate change) at 24%.

You are misreading the data.  45% show explicit OR implicit support for the consensus, which includes the 7% which showed explicit support.  It was reported this way so that it could be compared to the misleading 75% in the original "study".  So, presumably there were 45% - 7% = 38% that only implied support.

Note the trend here, though.  Down from 75% to 45% either explicitly or implicitly stating support for the consensus.  Ergo, the consensus, if it ever existed, is evaporating.

On the other end we have 1.3% explicitly rejecting the consensus, and 6% either explicitly or implicitly rejecting the consensus.

Again, note the trend.  From 0% rejections to 6% either explicitly or implicitly REJECTING the consensus view.  Ergo, the consensus, if it ever existed, is evaporating as new information becomes available.

Oh, and those papers that don't take a position?  Those don't count as supporting the consensus view ... since they didn't take a position.

So how many papers actually contradict the consensus view? A whopping 7%!

Actually only 6% as you are again misreading the data, but this IS an increase from 0% in 2004!

What a farce.

A farce?  I thought that you believed in the value of peer reviewed papers.  Unlike the 2004 "study", I think that the Schulte study was peer reviewed.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Why were first a history professor

and now a medical researcher the ones deciding which papers support what view of global warming? Seems like somebody in the field could do a more rigorous literature review.

(His survey doesn't contradict the IPCC 90% figure, which is based on data not consensus, right?)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

…………

Maybe they slept

in a Holiday Inn Express the previous night.

………… parent

Note that I did not underline that. :)

It is hard to decide what to leave in and what to take out in the quotes because if I leave something out, no matter how unrelated it may seem to be at the time, the blue bars are going to scream that I am cherry picking if I don't leave it in.  I tend to highlight/underline the parts that I am actually trying to discuss (in general).

I tend to agree with you.  I think it was poor wording on the author's part as the rest of the paragraph is really attacking the notion that the IPCC represents some sort of a consensus view.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Works for me

I noticed he went on to discuss consensus but I like to go after the low-hanging fruit ;-)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

Neutral

Well, there were 25% "neutral" papers in Oreskes study as well. If you want to spin neutral as meaning "refusing to either accept or reject the hypothesis" then you will draw a different conclusion than if you define neutral as dealing "with other facets of the subject, taking no position on whether current climate change is caused by human activity," which is how Oreskes defined it . (Guess which definition I think is more realistic.)

By the second definition of neutral, the most obvious conclusion is what we've been saying all along, that more and more research can now deal with other aspects of the issue. Studying something that is already known is a bit of a waste of time.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

…………

Exactly

I try to say this in my post above, but you do a much better job of it. I like that you also found a clarification for the 'neutrality' section which takes all of the air out of the 'no-consensus' argument.

………… parent

My read is that the intent was to use Oreskes definition.

The only extension I see is that the explicit versus implicit support/rejections have been made, well, explicit.  Something that Oreskes DIDN'T do ... presumably to obscure the facts and allow her to inflate the numbers.

Also of note is the misleading nature of Oreskes definition.  Her definition only requires that human activities contribute to global warming (as opposed to being the primary source thereof), AND she does not require any predictions of a catastrophic outcome.

The is a very weak definition relative to how her "study" gets reported and relied upon.  Somehow that weak statement has been morphed by the AGW proponents to mean human activities are the primary souce of GW, AND that GW will inherently be catastrophic (hence requiring action).

If anything is misleading, it is taking her weak definition and portraying it as the much stronger position here.

The "other facets meme" is a dodge on your part, unsuccessful IMHO, because if the study of these "other facets" is predicated on the acceptance of human influence as you suggest then this should be obvious and thus it will be implicitly supporting the consensus view as defined by Oreskes.  That's what "implicitly supporting" means, is it not?

Neutral means just that, neutral.  Taking no position.  NOT taking a position that supports your meme without your having to show that it does.  :)  Kudos for a clever dodge though.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Your overuse of underscoring makes this hard to read...

...for me it does at least... all that underlining looks like a desperate attempt to shore up a weak case straight out of the office of Senator Inhofe, which I could have read for myself, absent all the underlining...

…………

Alas, lofty mutt

I couldn't read your title!

………… parent

I plead no control on the title...

But I am quite lofty, it is indisputable :-)

………… parent

Well what do you suggest?

My intent is to highlight the primary points which I will subsequently address in my commentary (in general).  If I remove the bits that are NOT underlined (and then not underline the rest) then you will accuse me of cherry picking things.

I could use bold instead of underline, would that help?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Personally I prefer italics

but used sparingly otherwise they lose impact. Just my $0.02 of course.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

I dunno, maybe bold...

...I just can't read the underlined stuff.  Maybe I need to get my eyes checked.  Personally, I find too much italic to be hard to read also.  Bold is usually ok.

………… parent

OK, everyone

Take a deep breath, and repeat: "It is what it is."

First, distrust those who use the term, "Global Warming." The more scientific is "Global Climate Change."

The consensus is that that the globe has warmed, and that at least some of that is likely due to anthropogenic greenhouse gases. The amount of such contribution is undetermined.

In science, 'consensus' does not mean a 100% agreement. Therefore, finding even well-qualified scientists who disagree with a consensus does not mean there is no consensus. There are still a few researchers who disagree that HIV is the causative factor for AIDS, including a well-credentialed researcher at UCLA who has long held that it is a mycoplama disease. Still, we can safely say that the consensus is that HIV is the causative factor for AIDS.

Best is to avoid these second-hand reports and read the actual science yourself. You can. You are capable.

Note: as consensus in science tends to 100%, references to the consensus drop out of the scientific papers. We have a pretty good consensus on cell theory now, that is, that cells come from cells. Yet you can read hundreds of papers in cell biology without a reference to cell theory. How would this be reported by someone doubting the consensus view of cell theory?

…………

Bah to you.

First, distrust those who use the term, "Global Warming." The more scientific is "Global Climate Change."

For the most part these are used as synonynms, except when they aren't, of course.  :)  Since I am not the primary author of the study or the reports that I have referenced I can't control which term gets used.  For clarity I have retained the term used by the authors themselves.

The consensus is that that the globe has warmed, and that at least some of that is likely due to anthropogenic greenhouse gases. The amount of such contribution is undetermined.

While this is consistent with Oreskes definition it is not consistent with the way the references to a "consensus" actually get used.  For example, we often hear claims of a consensus followed bu references to the IPCC reports which, as you know, now claim a 90% human component.  The view is definitely NOT born out by this most recent review of the scientific literature as reported above.

Best is to avoid these second-hand reports and read the actual science yourself. You can. You are capable.

I would if I could, but I can't so I won't.  :)  A favorite saying from childhood.

In this case I can't because I don't believe that the text of the paper is yet available on-line, presumably because the publishing journal wants to have first crack on making the information available and it simply hasn't come out yet.  This is not an uncommon position for scientific journal's to take, BTW.

Also, I have made it perfectly clear (elsewhere) that I can and do prefer to operate as you describe.  Message received.  No need to repeat.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Remember, GoRight

That my remark was aimed at "everyone."

The terms used are important, and i would think expressly so for you. The term "Global Climate Change" reflects the fact that there is no consensus even on the direction of the climate change. (Remember the slowing of the ocean current theory, down now but not out.)

Mostly, I think it is worth something to be correct in usage.

Like you, neither i nor the scientists doing research and reporting ovbservations can be held accountable for reports of those with policy bias. That's why one doesn't read policy papers for the science. The IPCC output is sort of on the cusp. It represents a concensus among those assembled (in the loose sense), has error bars, but is a snapshot. As time passes, more and more of their conclusions will be overtaken by further research.

The trick is simply to report findings in the conservative way that scientists qua scientists report things. But this does not mean ignoring what is reported.

As for the IPCC and what they reported about anthropogenic greenhouse gasesm here it is, I think:

Most of (>50% of) the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely (confidence level >90%) due to the observed increase in anthropogenic (human) greenhouse gas concentrations.

No "90% anthropogenic" here. In fact, there is a ten percent chance, they say, that amount attributable to anthropogenic greenhouse gases is not greater than 50%. 90% is not a great confidence level. 95% is more the standard scientific work.

[Interlude: why do some wrong theories take hold as right? Let's assume a 95% confidence level. That means that there is a 1 in 20 chance that a wrong conclusion could be reported as true. A 1 in 400 chance that two such reports could reach the same wrong conclusion. think of the number of reports. It should not surprise us that wrong theories sometimes take hold. Soon, such a result will be cited as, "first reported buy Smith, et al....and replicated by Jones, et al...." One can see why science is always reported conservatively.]

But here, they are making a guess, and attempting to quantify it. This is NOT the part of the IPCC reports that I find most helpful. This is from the "summary for Policymakers," not the more scientific parts of the report.

To put it in terms that the more political can understand, it is more like the NIE or intelligence papers sent to the policy makers than the actual intelligence or low level assessments based on specific intelligence. Just as there is a long distance from the few reports of activity which could indicate the beginning of a new nuclear weapons program in Iraq (purchase of large magnets, summoning and return of former neclear scientists and technicians who were arrayed around iraq to Baghdad, attempts to purchase aluminum tubes) to the assessment in the NIE, the "summary for policy makers," so to speak, "Baghdad is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program," or the assessment, given with "High Confidence" that "Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding, its chemical, biological, nuclear and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions," there is a long distance from the individual scientific reports to this assessment for policy makers.

Of course, these intelligence statements are not scientific, and there is no effort to state possible error. But there is little effort in the IPCC Summary for Policymakers" either. Here, "greater than 50%" is not precise, there are no error bars, no measure of central tendency, nor any statement of spread.

But I think we can say even from this that the notion that there is no global warming is contreary to the scientific consensus, and, in fact, I know of no scientist who seriously doubts thisd observational fact. The last question was the disjunct between aerial and ground observations, but the first of Bush's science initiatives settled that in favour of the ground observations, and the aerial readings were recalibrated.
\
So, to sum, "Global Warming" is a perfectly good term for the observations, but causes confusion when used instead for the theoretical implications of the observations, which are more properly called "Global Climate Change." You are right that you can't control those you quote, but i was suggesting that the misuse of these terms might cause you to question the sources, at least for a second. And there is no reason for us to compound the confusion.

I may also suggest that even if you can't subscribe to the journals, you can check reputable journal sites for information. Many have news services which are available, sometimes on a time-limited basis, to the non-subscriber. Although these are not the actual scientific reports, they are of high quality in summarizing these reports. For a general instance, check:

Science

Here, news items and some others are available for 4 weeks. Go here and click on "News." Of course this is a general, "thunder and lightening" journal not specific to Climatology.

………… parent

OK, fair enough.

Mostly, I think it is worth something to be correct in usage.

Agreed.

No "90% anthropogenic" here. In fact, there is a ten percent chance, they say, that amount attributable to anthropogenic greenhouse gases is not greater than 50%. 90% is not a great confidence level. 95% is more the standard scientific work.

Agreed.  Correction noted.

But I think we can say even from this that the notion that there is no global warming is contreary to the scientific consensus, and, in fact, I know of no scientist who seriously doubts thisd observational fact.

Agreed.  I argue that in common usage today the term "Global Warming" has become synonymous with the AGW movement, at least in layperson terms.  While I agree with your statement technically, I disagree practically based on how the term is used in the media.

I don't disagree with your analysis of the relative accuracy of the two terms.

So, in public, the phrase Global Warming is taken to mean Anthropogenic Global Warming (where human activities are the primary source of the warming) AND where the outcome is considered to be catastrophic (i.e. requiring remedial action on our collective parts).

I may also suggest that even if you can't subscribe to the journals, you can check reputable journal sites for information.

Ironically, the example you chose is being criticized for its role in promoting the "scientific consensus has been reached" meme while refusing to publish letters pointing out the fallacies in their originally published article.  One must wonder to what extent this behavior is the norm at this publication, as opposed to being an anomoly.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Minor clarification / emphasis

MS, I believe this comment is an excellent summation, but one minor point may have escaped proper attention. You say

The terms used are important, and i would think expressly so for you. The term "Global Climate Change" reflects the fact that there is no consensus even on the direction of the climate change. (Remember the slowing of the ocean current theory, down now but not out.)

To which GoRight responds

So, in public, the phrase Global Warming is taken to mean Anthropogenic Global Warming (where human activities are the primary source of the warming) AND where the outcome is considered to be catastrophic (i.e. requiring remedial action on our collective parts).

I refrain from using Global Warming (and prefer to use Global Climate Change) for two reasons, the first being that GW is somewhat intentionally inflammatory and divisive, and the second being the point of this comment, to steal your words again: there is no [overwhelming] consensus even on the direction of the climate change.

To put is simply, it will probably get hotter, but there is still a chance that it might get cooler in the very short term. Most likely it will be hotter, but the historical data is not refined enough to make absolute judgments about what will happen on human timescales, nor are all the feedback mechanisms that well understood or modeled in enough detail.

A minor point, as I said ;}

"Perplexity is the beginning of knowledge" -- Kahlil Gibran

………… parent

Global Climate Change

I agree that Global Climate Change is a more accurate term, although I think the variability in the direction of climate change is not so much a temporal as a spatial one. Which is to say that, according to the theory, many areas of the globe will get hotter, but others will get cooler. Some will get more rain, some will get less. Even the most vocal of doomsayers will, I would hope, admit that some places on earth will benefit from these changes (parts of Canada for example?). If the models are correct, some areas will get screwed worse than others (Africa?).

So I agree when you say that there is no overwhelming consensus on the direction of climate change in any specific region of the globe, but I believe there is an overwhelming consensus that average temperatures will go up. 

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

RE: Global Climate Change

I believe there is an overwhelming consensus that average temperatures will go up

That is, of course, until they naturally go down again as we have a long history of ice ages to suggest that they will, correct?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Not necessarily

Runaway CO2 production could cause a positive feedback loop that will eventually make the Earth become as uninhabitable as Venus. All because of the greed of corporations and the poor leadership of GW Bush! :P

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Pascal's Wager

In spite of GoRight's plea to 'trends' and depleting consensus, I think you bring up a good point.

We can look at this in a 'Pascal's Wager ' framework.

If there is global climate change caused by humans, then we best act now to hinder the consequences. If there is no global climate change caused by humans and we still make changes (doubtful), it is still a win since we have cleaner air, new industries, increased health (say, riding your bike to work), etc.

The alternative: oil companies continue fleecing us.

Not a real decision here in my mind.

………… parent

RE: Pascal's Wager

I don't object to clean air (not that CO2 is a pollutant) or reduced energy consumption or relying on more renewable resources.  What I object to is the use of junk science to scare monger people into doing these things.  If they are worth doing then make the case for doing them simply because they are worth doing.  Junk science and scare mongering only hurt your cause in that respect.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Pfft.

An extremely unlikely scenario at best, and I would argue that it won't be possible for us to even make such a thing happen if we wanted.

The CO2 we are generating comes from what?  Burning fossil fuels.  The carbon in those fossil fuels came from where?  The atmosphere.  How did it get there?  From plants and animals.  So, even if we liberate all of the carbon in all of the fossil fuels the worst we can accomplish is to put the CO2 levels back to a period where we know plants and animals existed.  That is hardly what I would call "as uninhabitable as Venus".

To put this current CO2 levels in perspective consider the following:

Late Carboniferous to Early Permian time (315 mya -- 270 mya) is the only time period in the last 600 million years when both atmospheric CO2 and temperatures were as low as they are today (Quaternary Period ).

Temperature after C.R. Scotese http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm
CO2 after R.A. Berner, 2001 (GEOCARB III)

Hat tip to www.geocraft.com for putting this together.  The sources are provided above for the skeptics.

Note that in Earth's history CO2 concentrations have been as high as 7,000 PPM whereas today they are more like 380 PPM.  So I think that we have a way's to go before we destroy the planet with CO2.

Just say NO to the AGW scare mongering!

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

For argument's sake

let's say you were right (you aren't but anyway...)

Note that in Earth's history CO2 concentrations have been as high as 7,000 PPM whereas today they are more like 380 PPM. So I think that we have a way's to go before we destroy the planet with CO2

You know what the threshold value for CO2 is? It's 5000 PPM. That means that 5k PPM CO2 is considered the most a healthy adult can be exposed to for 8 hours at a time. For the sick, elderly, or immature the value is significantly less. And of course these 7000 PPM you blithely treat as nothing won;t be around just 8 hours at a time. Furthermore because we exhale CO2 from our bodies (which we do because it is a toxin for us) CO2 levels inside occupied buildings tend to be much higher than in the atmosphere.

So even if we take your ridiculously rosy scenario we are talking about CO2 levels that are dangerous for people outdoors (the best possible circumstances).

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

That would be true if they ever even approached those levels.

But given that we are currently arguing about increases in the range of:

(65 PPM / 45 years) ~= 1.5 PPM/year

with a current baseline of 380 PPM we've got about:

(5000 PPM - 380 PPM) / 1.5 PPM/year ~= 3,000 years

before your scenario becomes a problem?

I'll tell you what, let's give it another millenium where we track the data and then see where we're at, eh?  You're just buying into the scare mongering.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

So...

...even when, for argument's sake, I let you dictate the framework you still have to try and change the rules mid-argument.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

What rules did I change?

I never claimed that the levels would reach 7,000 PPM.  My point of even mentioning it was to demonstrate how totally outlandish it would be.

And even if we liberated all of the carbon in all of the fossil fuels (something we can't do) it wouldn't approach that level.

I'm not moving the goalposts, you are.  The original goal post on this thread was "as uninhabitable as Venus".  By that standard even 7,000 PPM falls short because, well, it has been that high and yet here we are (along with everything else) as living proof that the planet was more habitable at that level than Venus.

I merely responded to the new goalpost that you set at 5,000 PPM when you entered the conversation.  I admitted that you were correct on that point.  I merely went on to highlight how outlandish even that figure was in terms of being a catastrophe that the world has to drop everything to fix today.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Nice try

In reference to the venus claim you claimed that we could only return carbon to the atmosphere that had already been there before being sequestered by plants. You said we'd just go back to having atmospheric CO2 levels seen historically and then you gave the 7k PPM number.

So I went ahead and used YOUR argument to show we'd already be talking about mass deaths. And at that point you ran away from your argument about historic CO2 levels and switched to the IPCC numbers.

I let you establish the framework of the argument, took your mistaken hypothesis as valid and you still had to change the rules.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

RE: Nice try

Here is what I said word for word: 

The CO2 we are generating comes from what?  Burning fossil fuels.  The carbon in those fossil fuels came from where?  The atmosphere.  How did it get there?  From plants and animals.  So, even if we liberate all of the carbon in all of the fossil fuels the worst we can accomplish is to put the CO2 levels back to a period where we know plants and animals existed.  That is hardly what I would call "as uninhabitable as Venus".

I stand by that statement.  If we liberate all of the carbon in fossil fuels it will only raise the CO2 to a level "where we know plants and animals existed."  This is a true statement by definition and should be obvious.

Note what this does NOT say: it does NOT say that those levels were 7,000 PPM.  How you made that connection I don't know, but I never said nor implied any such thing.

Then to put things in perspective I presented a graph showing the CO2 levels throughout history and highlighted the approximate highpoint.  Let me repeat that, throughout history ... not when plants and animals existed.

The fact that you erroneously connected these two statements doesn't mean that I did.  So, to put THIS in perspective I looked up a reference for the timescale for plants and animals.  Here is what I found:

Multi-Scale Times

Billion-year clocks and calendars 

By zooming in on the multi-billion year scale twice, to what might be called the age of metazoans, and of mammals within that, the arrow-expansion above lets us taste the effects of changing scale. Each of the new boxes expand a tiny patch of time from the box to its left. There is a lot of new detail. For example, note (from the middle box) that both our fossil fuels, and our metazoan species diversity, were built up during the half-billion years of earth history leading up to the present.

Note that half-billion equals 500 million, so let's look back at the graph that I provided above and see what that means in terms of CO2.  Hmmm, in the past 500 million years it appears that the CO2 levels have been consistently below 5,000 PPM.

So, if we liberate all of the carbon in the fossil fuels built up in the past 500 million years, the time period for when plants and animals existed as I stated, the CO2 levels will remain below the 5,000 PPM level that you have established as the threshold.  So I guess my actual statement stands.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Yeah...

...what exactly would be the point of me bothering to refute your tripe when you'll just make an entirely new bogus argument and pretend its what you meant all along?

See, nobody wants to play the game with you GR when you insist on cheating. And you really aren't smooth enough to cheat and not have pretty much everyone notice.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

LOL

I'm not cheating.  I honestly NEVER meant to imply that the levels would actually reach 7,000 PPM.  The two points were completely independent.

You can either believe me or not, but that's the truth.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

I don't believe you.

Much like the sources you rely upon you have no credibility because you have acted in bad faith so many times. Consequently even if this were a simple miscommunication you have no standing on which to protest your innocence. Something you might want to keep in mind when you are meeting new people, arguing dishonestly may let you score some points in the short term but long term you end up right where you are now.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Don't be such a baby.

I haven't ever argued in bad faith.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

You say that...

...and I believe you. Because that's the kind of rapport we have.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Ha, that's good.

Look sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you.  Sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose.

On this thread it has been the latter, that's all.

The difference between us in terms of arguing in "good faith" is that I will occasionally concede your points whereas you never will regardless of how absurd it actually ends up making you look.  This thread is a good example.

Case in point from this very thread: I acknowledged that you were correct on the 5,000 PPM point.  I didn't even bother to double check you on it.

But you were so hell bent to find something wrong that you had to construe my saying something that I never did.  And when I was then able to demonstrate that my actual statement regarding fossil fuels was still correct what was your reaction?  You have yet to acknowledge that any of the actual data and graphs that I have provided support my statements.

The pattern with you is consistently when confronted with facts that you cannot refute you simply choose to attack the messenger.  You do so with the AGW critics and you are doing so with me here in this thread.  That speaks for itself.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

OMG

The difference between us in terms of arguing in "good faith" is that I will occasionally concede your points whereas you never will regardless of how absurd it actually ends up making you look. This thread is a good example.

Yes this thread is a great example. Why do you write things that are not only transparently false but that require zero effort to disprove? Seriously. You just claimed I never do something that I did three or four comments below this one. Did you think I'd have forgotten?

The pattern with you is consistently when confronted with facts that you cannot refute you simply choose to attack the messenger.

No actually I attacked the message. The problem was as soon as I did the message vanished. You immediately claimed that said message hadn't ever existed, quoted yourself saying said message and still denied it existed and went on to set up a new potemkin message.

At that point sure I feel fine attacking the messenger because the messenger is clearly dishonest. they deserve to be attacked for that. And you're right in one regard- you do share an awful lot of similarities with the global warming deniers. And it is no coincidence that you get treated the same.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

OMG back!

Yes this thread is a great example. Why do you write things that are not only transparently false but that require zero effort to disprove? Seriously.

That's a concession?  What exactly is it conceding because it sort of escapes me and probably everyone else on the site?

No actually I attacked the message. The problem was as soon as I did the message vanished.

Correction: You attacked what you wanted the message to be.  You attacked a strawman of your own construction as I have amply demonstrated.  As such, the message of which you speak could not have vanished because it never actually existed in the first place.

At that point sure I feel fine attacking the messenger because the messenger is clearly dishonest. they deserve to be attacked for that. And you're right in one regard- you do share an awful lot of similarities with the global warming deniers. And it is no coincidence that you get treated the same.

Thus proving my point.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

You have to be kidding me

That's a concession? What exactly is it conceding because it sort of escapes me and probably everyone else on the site?

I said you used IPCC numbers, you said you didn't, and I conceded that you hadn't.

I'm starting to think you made the argument I refered to as "transparently false" above not out of dishonesty but actual ignorance of what the word you used meant.

You attacked a strawman of your own construction as I have amply demonstrated.

True, since all of your arguments are strawmen.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

I keep waiting, tlaloc

I keep waiting for the other foot to tap...

since all of your arguments are strawmen.

"for instance, this argument, where you......."

………… parent

Just proving the point! Just proving the point.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Disagree, GoRight

In Tlaloc's terms, a bad faith is any faith other than his own (just as any fact not consistent with his faith is thereby faulty). therefore, he is merely saying in "you argue in bad faith" that you have said something not consistent with the faith of which he thinks himself the pope.

He isn't openminded enough to use the phrase as it is usually used, and ifr he were, this would simply be an ad hominem attack in place of argument anyway, proof that he has nothing to back up his criticisms. (I noticed tht he hasnb't presented counterfact nor counterargument 1 in this thread.)

btw, I think much of your analysis is wrong, as we have discussed. And the graph is too simple and unexplained to allow the drawing of conlusions from. (Remember, for instance, that it doesn't represent actual readings, but proxies, whose exact meaning is the matter of some dispute.)

All that being said, arguing with Tlaloc reminds me of my debate with Ken Ham over two decades ago. they seem to be two peas in a pod.

………… parent