Friedman, Pinochet and Chile. A brief look....
In the Weekend Open Thread, there was a video promo for Naomi Klein's new book .
In the video, Klein, takes special interest in Milton Friedman and attributes qualities and blame on him for events that are very misunderstood and intellectually abused...especially on the Left.
This comment:
Friedman absolutely loved the fascist Pinochet, who turned over the Chilean economy to use as a sandbox for his theories, damn the consequences.
and this comment:
That despicable creature could make as many disapproving noises as he wished, but the facts are unalterable—Chilean “shock therapy” had his highest blessing, and, ultimately, he was more comfortable with fascism, disappearances, state torture and death squads than the duly elected government of South America’s oldest democracy. May he rot slowly in the heat of the Monster’s—peace be upon his fettuccine—infinite scorn.
...are a good summation of the hatred toward the man. Sadly, the video's suggestive vitriol and these hateful comments scream a lot of accusations and characterizations of Friedman and his views without really explaining why they are so undeniably true. There's a reason for that: They can't. Such pointed comments and insinuations are part of a very sloppy premise that pieces events and intents together in false ways so as to attack a larger idea, free market capitalism, and graft it onto fascism in a very convoluted way that ignores truth and creates false narratives on a reality that these attackers wish were true...but aren't.
The sad part is that one need not go very far to learn just enough to put these sloppily cruel opinions to rest. Wiki's Miracle of Chile entry . I do take great care when citing Wiki, BTW. Looking for facts, figures, direct quotes, dates and directly deduced statements is pretty easy to do however.
With getting too heavy, we can make some very simple and truthful observations:
-Friedman did not support Pinochet or his regime.
-Friedman was not a formal adviser to Pinochet.
-He met with Pinochet for 45 minutes while visiting Chile after an invitation to deliver a speech on Economic Freedom.
-On Pinochet's request, Friedman wrote him a letter outlining what he thought should be the outline of economic reform in Chile.
These 3 statements are undeniably true. The second and third are noted events. The first has been clearly stated by Friedman many times with regard to questions about Chile.
But what about phantom fusion of Friedman's economic ideas and Pinochet's strong arm dictatorial junta? Well, it's just that...a phantom. The junta existed prior to Friedman's influence and was not somehow "related to" Friedman's ideas. A dictatorship is a form of government....just like a republic (like the U.S.). The economic system is not married to the form of government....although some writers, like Hayek, have written books that demonstrate how some economic systems can TURN democracies into dictatorships....namely socialism.
Conversely, and in the same logic as Hayek, Friedman had this to say about this relationship between economy and the form of government:
"free markets would undermine political centralization and political control."
.
Indeed, Friedman once said that the real "MIRACLE" in the term "Miracle of Chile" was that Pinochet allowed these reforms because they were detrimental to the long term strength of an all-powerful or fascist government.
Friedman defended his role in Chile on the grounds that the move towards open market policies not only improved the economic situation in Chile but also contributed to the softening of Pinochet's rule and to the eventual constitutional transition to a democratic government in 1990. He also stressed that the lectures he gave in Chile were the same lectures he later gave in China and other socialist states.[36] In the 2000 PBS documentary The Commanding Heights, Friedman also noted that this criticism was misdirected and missed his main point. Friedman advocated that freer markets led to free people, and that Chile had an unfree economy which led to the military government, which then implemented open economy policies. These policies led to the end of military rule and a "free society".[37]
Today, Chile's is still one of the richest (and richest per capita) and most advanced economies in Latin America.
However, the most important thing to take from this is that there was simply no casual relationship between Friedman's ideas and Pinochet's governing style. In fact, it was a somewhat bizarre combination and I find it notable for that reason.
In the end, however, Pinochet did not employ all of Friedman's ideas or necessarily employ them as well as he could have. But he did employ many of them and there was a direct causal effect in Chile becoming one of the wealthiest and most free nations in Latin America. Friedman could have included "and get ride of yourself" as the final reform but he did not want his disdain for strong arm governments like Pinochet's to prevent him from making a long term difference in making Chile a freer and prosperous nation.

Comments :
Friedman and Chile: The Man Speaks
We can always read the words of Friedman himself on his role in Chile. One thing I know for an absolute certainty is that if there is a disjunct between the leftist narrative and Friedman's discussion, then Friedman is to be believed. Years ago, I was in the business of manufacturing leftist narrative, and I recognize it when I see it.
Here is part of an interview
done by PBS with Friedman in 2000:
[I have taken the unusual step of copying the entire text of this part of the interview so that there is no excuse for glossing over it. The entire interview is available at the link, and involves wider topics. Damning an academic like Friedman and his ideas for the sake of demagoguery, using falsehoods and half-truths is reprehensible. Honest is to discuss his ideas head on.]
friedman in his own words.
I didn't post this because I didn't think people would actually read and I still don't think they will.
But thanks for the effort. Very good segment of the interview.
But just to show that I wasn't making anything up, I said:
and Friedman said:
That’s only remarkable...
...if you view society as essentially classless.
A military junta doesn’t take and maintain power without a constituency; the same holds true for any system of power—it needs a base, else the edifice collapses. Political bases don't need to be majoritarian, however. The owning class in Chile were the primary supporters and beneficiaries of his coup and subsequent economic policies.
This is no big secret.
Not that you intend to read it, but I'd highly recommend Marc Cooper's book "Pinochet and Me
", as he actually lived through the events; Cooper describes the leadup and tumults in quite a bit of detail. He has his loyalties--he was Allende's translator--but is explicit about them throughout.
"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell
Autarkh
this is about Friedman, not Pinochet. Nowhere do i absolve Pinochet for his governance style or atrocities.
What I take issue is that you make Friedman a bad person for obliging the dictator and giving him his ideas for economic policy and making his "Fragility of Freedom" speech at the Catholic University....the same speech he gave in other poor socialist countries.
What, exactly, is so hard to grasp about this?
Again, as yesterday, it seems our waves are out of phase.
Here, I’m criticizing the specific quote YOU provided and attributed to Friedman. How is that irrelevant?
I don’t know, or care, what kind of person Milton Friedman was in his private life, he could be charming, munificent, witty, whatever. That IS irrelevant. What I care passionately about, and I’ve said this numerous times, are the effects of the neoliberal model he advocated for Chile.
From the post I made previously, so you have the benefit of re-reading:
"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell
And you know, Maddy....
The more you sit there and stare at Friedman's own words and deduce the true larger picture around them, the worse those hateful look.
And it's not just that they look worse, it goes much deeper than that. When the countering information to such incredibly false views are so readily available and so simple to see, it makes truly wonder if the sharing of objective information really even matters.
No doubt, the vile and dishonest comments from people about this matter will continue even after reading in plain English that it simply isn't so. And that's the saddest part of all.
Inflation rates
I recall reading that under Marxist Allende, the inflation rate was hitting 500% - that's not a typo -- (early Mugabe levels, another Marxist loser), and Friedman - iirc -- focused on inflation rates, bless his soul!
ring a bell w/anyone??
The lefties can't comprehend that soaring inflation rates disproportionaly harm the very 'masses' they profess to champion.
imo, the agenda is to deflect from the economic success, by focusing on their sphere -- social justice and human rights -- which is fine! but recongize it a diversionary tactic.
and Pinochet, the Fascist, still had more cajones by putting himself up the to voting process (albeit reluctantly) versus their hero, Castro, who in 47! and counting years, does not trust his own people.
If I absolutely had to choose between the two? I'd take Pinochet, simply b/c he ran a better economy.
Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous
Unless, of course, you were one of the "disappeared."
You know, if you were being dragged off and tortured (as thousands were under Pinochet), a "better economy" may be a little lower on your priority list.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Full treatment of this subject will require an extended length
...diary. And, since it interests me, I’ll commit to writing it as soon as I have time in the coming weeks (I have to go "freely" contract my body so I can eat and keep this roof over my head).
For now, a couple of observations:
Any discussion of the Chilean “economic miracle” that neglects to mention the two deep recessions suffered in less than a decade, the polarization of income distribution, the sharp cuts in social spending and concomitant rise in poverty, or the disastrous state of the pension system, is just as "sloppy" a narrative, one that "pieces events and intents together in false ways so as to attack a larger idea," democracy and popular sovereignty.
Friedman rejects the very notion of the polity “interfering” in the market – to him, “profit-making is the very essence of democracy.” This perverse understanding is at odds with what most people perceive as democratic; I suspect rather more would agree with Alexis de Tocqueville’s conception, that democracy rests firmly upon the “equality of conditions” – one person, one vote NOT one dollar, one vote.
As I said, Milton may well have expressed dislike for the tactics of the Pinochet regime, but he was more troubled by Allende's machinations: you simply can't have the government distributing milk to malnourished children—the proper role of the state is to smash unions and increase the “flexibility” of the labor market. People sure are more “flexible” when they’re hooded, upside down, with electrodes protruding from their genitals.
"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell
Sorry, Autarkh,
That's a separate diary. Fine.
The point of this diary was to show how absolutely unwarranted and wrong your characterizations and descriptions of Friedman and his intentions were...not to mention his supposed affinity for Pinochet and his governing methods.
You want to go into a discussion of Chile now? Fine, go on ahead but do not think that it isn't well-noted that your dodging the story's premise.
Say what?
when you write a diary about Friedman and his relationship to the chilean government how is it you then turn around and declare that a response about, you know, both Friedman and the chilean government is "dodging the story's premise"?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
That's not what this is about
it's a bit subtle but not that hard to see.
How's that?
I'm concerned with the effects of policies advocated by Friedman, and with his preference for the junta (versus Allende). I never claimed he was Pinochet's top economic advisor, merely that he was willing to tolerate fascism as the means to his preferred end.
Note that, and whatever else you want.
Also, if you can't detect the hyperbole and sarcasm in my "vitriol" (the reference the to the FSM should have been a dead giveaway), then I suggest you recalibrate your meter.
"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell
Let's put it this way
The discussion here is about Milton's relationship to the Choilean government, which was less than slight, and certainly not what you stated. And do YOU condemn him for giving the same speeches in China? They certainly were no bastion of civil rights. (btw, do you applaud the Chines practice of executing corporatists whose products lead to bad ends?)
No amount of bending the data one way or the other to make a point helps in these discussions. A couple of years ago, in the context of Social security reform, the Chilean system was cited by both sides to support their points. Same data, although selectively chosen. Results based on ideology.
Now, here is what i think John may have reacted to:
This quite clearly implicates Uncle Milty in preferring a regime that hoods, inverts, and applies electrodes (probably with a little juice) to people's genitals. Please show us where Milton actually said he supported that.
Likewise, please show me where Milton ever said that malnourished children should not get milk from the government, or where he said that the "proper role of government is smashing unions." As for flexibility, I'm no Friedman scholar, but I'm not sure he would even see a role for government in making the labour market more flexible. I think he thinks that the government should allow people to work if hey want to. I think.
Perhaps your point, regarding Pinochet, is that if someone is on your list of evil characters, then anyone who says anything nice about that evil person, or, perhaps, even refrains from condemnation, is as bad as that person himself. Like, say, if someone noted that Hitler was kind to dogs, you would go off on a rant about dead Jews, the widows of London, and so on, damning that someone.
Reminds me of a story a priest once told, about a young Pollyannish girl, who always had something nice to say about people. In fact, she was so consistent that people became irritated with her. Eventually, several went to the parish priest to ask him to talk to her, because they thought that her annoying habit was becoming a "near occasion of sin" for them.
So the priest calls her to the church, and begins to discuss the problem with her. She says, "but Father, I can always find something nice to say about anyone. And it does seem so much nicer than saying bad things about them. And some people seem to act better when you say nice things about them.
The priest goes on to tell her about how annoyed people are, and so on, but eventually he become exasperated. He can see he is getting nowhere. So he gasps, "You'd have somethng nice to say about the devil!"
To which our young girl response, "You have to admit, he is mighty industrious!"
China "executing corporatists whose products lead to bad ends?"
Is this a "practice" of the Chinese? has it even happened recently? I recall the case of the head of their equivalent of the FDA who took $850,000 in bribes
, but I do not recall any publicized instance of some businessman getting executed for simply having their product "lead to bad ends" without some wrongdoing on their part.
After a brief Googling I still find nothing on this. If I am misinformed on this, please enlighten me...
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
The businessman who ran a factory that made lead-painted-tainted
... toys killed himself
.
But the only execution I recall was this guy
, who, as you say, was executed for taking bribes.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
And in the case of the toy factory guy...
...the government had revoked his license to run his toy factory, but the guy hadn't received a death sentence, nor any criminal sentence of which I am aware. Maybe he knew that harsh punishment was coming, or maybe he was just despondent over the deaths he had caused, or maybe the closing of the factory just ruined him financially, and that led to the suicide. Who knows...
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
Of course, there is a certain delicious irony in...
... MS being wrong about this...
... when his next sentence is this:
That made me chuckle out loud.
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Got it, skymutt
That's who i had in mind. 10 people died because of a drug he took a bribe to approve. Obviously a corporatist, and his history shows he was.
I confused him with the guy whose company committed fraud by adding melamine to their products to fool the protein test. Oddly, I could find anything on himn after a story where he was unavailable for comment. I do believe i heard that he was likely to be arrested and might face the death penalty.
The crime is to put a glitch in the export stream, of course.
Another link
Odd how everyone went off on this little thing to play "gotcha," rather than continue the actual topic. I guess that says something about the souls of the people here.
So let me reform the question: Do you'all support the Chinese practice of harsh sentences for corporatists whose products bring people to a bad end?
Anyway, skymutt, thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Ah sweet irony
Or perhaps at this level it is more accurately called "projection."
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Sorry
Just wrong.
But i guess you had a need for more gotcha.
You're a liberal icon, man. Such a role model for how people should be treated.
well, the thread WAS pretty
dormant until some little peripheral comment helped start this tangent. I believe you it was YOU who left yourself open for that one....hahaha. Believe, I don't really care.
"Obviously a corporatist..."
Only to justify your argument.
He was a government employee. John would be all over this for just the opposite reason you claim: the failings of a centralized authority.
And in this case, he'd be far closer to the truth than you (trying to cover your a** in an argument).
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Let's make it ten
From the link: "He spent 23 years in the pharmaceutical industry before heading the agency from 1997 until he was ousted in 2006."
It's the old bugaboo of people going from corporations to government regulation. And where else would you find people who knew enough to regulate an industry.
Now, please stop responding to my stuff. Either that or respond in a relevant manner.
Oh, I have.
Many times. You pick and choose where to respond. Fine with me. Like I said, when you get to 1,000, I'm buying drinks for everyone here!
If you really believe this is the "fight of our lives," how come you're not in Iraq?
Just lurkin on the thread...
...had no intention to butt in, but I'm a bit of a China defender in some ways, so your comment caught my eye. I've got no need for gotchas for you in particular, MadScientist, and I would have made the same comment no matter who had posted that comment.
I still don't buy the premise of your question though, even after you rephrase it, because I'm unaware of any harsh sentences that corporatists have gotten for simply accidentally producing a bad product. You'd have to come up with examples to inform me-- otherwise we may all be operating under false assumptions. Adding melamine intentionally to product is beyond what your question indicates-- if intentional wrongdoing is what you're talking about, I approve of harsh sentences (not death pentalty though)
skymutt: wise and powerful... enlightened...
Well, skymutt
I'm not sure exactly where the Chinese Communist party is these days with Marxism. But I note that one of the "crimes" against the man they did execute was "betraying the party" or some such.
As for "intentional," in Marxism, there is a tendency toward "objective" criminality, such that intention is not so much the consideration as it iis here. If you are in charge of building a bridge, for instance, and after it is completed and it collapses, you will be charged without regard to your intention to collapse a bridge and kill people or not.
But it did interest me that in the US, the melamine story would have been simply a case of fraud. There was a test for protein content that used a measure of nitrogen as a substitute, melamine has a large per centage of nitrogen, and was obviously used to fake out the test. That's fraud.
And it is interesting that googling on the head of the company's name yielded only the story which said he had gone back to his country home and was unavailable for comment, this in April. He had been a "capitalist" success story, coming from poorish background in farming, and starting a small business that he built into a food empire. I just wonder what happened to him.
So, the FDA-like guy who took bribes, and one of whose bribe-induced approvals killed 10 people, what is the right sentence? And this guy, who committed fraud of epic proportions, and killed your grandmother's cat? Here, even when one's own party is in power, we don't send people to jail for embarrassing the party. But, absent that, what should be the penalties?
Note also that the "out" party here is always accusing the "in" party of just what the regulator was guilty of, taking money (here in the form of campaign contributions) and then giving those who contributed favours. The more cynical among us say all or most politicians do it no matter if they are in or out.
Side note: "I think you are wrong about that..." or, "Here is a link to the correct information...." are not gotchas.
Edit: Actually, I didn't mean to denigrate China, so I don't see any reason to defend China against my comments. Working with criminals, I can say that young males do not usually thyink of the consequences of their actions. we don't teach them to do so. One reason why the death sentence is not usually a deterrent. But I'm not so sure that hash penalties for executives (or regulators) would not be a deterrent. I threw that out as something to consider.
I was sure this myth was destroyed long ago....
guess not. Something I'm not sure most understand about Friedman is that his intent was not to be a political figure....instead, he simply wanted to be a policy advocate.
The only time he addressed Congress in all of the time that he wrote about ending the war on drugs or allowing for school choice or lessening government influence in our everyday lives was when he sought to end the military draft.
But John, it seems silly to us that someone would question Friedman's commitment to freedom. I'd simply ask the passerby's to read, "Freedom to Choose," "Capitalism and Freedom", and "Why Government is the Problem." Look at the policies he advocated. It's all there in black and white. I don't think this is a point that needs to be arugued at all.
Other points of view
might disagree that Friedman is Godlike, and might in fact want to argue.
But you can keep your pony. I won't take it away.
I think Friedman is a bit 'misguided' to put it politely.
It is the economy, stupid.
We can argue it...
, but it's really pointless. It's our opinions about what another man thought and stood for....
This is why I advocate reading his books or interviews (instead of the words others have written about him.) If you're going to have an opinion, have an informed one.
If I recall correctly, they're all out of ponies.
The good news ...
There are plenty of ponies and plenty of opinions.
And the bad news, people have opinions all the time informed or not.
There are even times when information is put out that is misleading to persuade public opinion in a certain direction. I believe it is called marketing.
It is the economy, stupid.
Misleading indeed....
Yep....your words seem somewhat ironic considering how the the author highlighted in John's piece is the "anti-marketer." She seems to go to great lengths to demonize him.
....and again, it's why I would ask that people actually read Friedman's words rather than listening to someone who is reading them through their own lens. "Capitalism and Freedom" would be a great start.
Best of all, Friedman's not marketing himself in the book, he's simply presenting ideas.
No worries
I wasn't speaking about Friedman, just mis-information in general, especially when it is used as propaganda.
No need to defend your man on the pony, or twist yourself into a pretzel yourself over it.
:+)
For the record, I think capitalism is good as long as it is practiced ethically.
It is the economy, stupid.
I welcome all of your non-specific opinions on non-specific
subject matter, but regardless, I thought that since you expressed an interest in this particular thread, I would still recommend the book.
.
I'm going to head off and uncontort myself.
Haha!
Specificity is so messy :+)
(See blood bath and never ending debate in statistically confusing global warming thread)
I think I will head off and see if I can tie myself in knots with some unknown facts.... (joking)
Thanks for the recommendation.
It is the economy, stupid.
these are the kind of things that irk me a bit.
When I disagree with something. I address it directly. If I can't, I reconsider my position.
This story was about clarifying Friedman's relationship to Pinochet...if you even want to call it a relationship....as well as clarifying how he viewed Pinochet's regime.
There's this popular voodoo kinda idea on the Left that Friedman supported Pinochet, fascism and the oppression of human rights simply because he gave solicited advice to a dictator and his regime. The advice was antithetical to the longevity of a totalitarian regime. Friedman said this and it's why he called it a "miracle".
Freer markets make freer people was his strong belief. And any better results that could be had from open markets were a benefit...in spite of Pinochet's dictatorial style.