Gun control

There are a lot of things that the rightwing seems to be having trouble swallowing about their various presidential nominee candidates. Among the front runners you have serial marriage coupled with questionable divorce practices, abortion support (or at least tepid abortion opposition), big government practices, and so on. The one that still amazes me is that some get panty-torqued over Rudy Guiliani's history of "gun grabbing" as New York City Mayor.

Now whether Rudy deeply respects the second amendment or not is trivial me because the amendment itself is a joke. A bad joke with a lethal punch line.

Set the wayback machine to 1789, Sherman.

The American Colonies had won independence from the brits and, after a decade under the Articles of Confederation, had passed the US Constitution just two years earlier. In '89 The Bill of Rights was being written by Madison as a modification of the Constitution spelling out what, at the time, were the most important rights to guarantee citizens. It's important to understand the time and place of the amendment to understand why it was created. What was to become the US had been part of the british empire and had been rather poorly treated. The british had tried to maintain power in the rebelious colonies through force of arms, which at the time meant black powder muskets, cavalry, and horse drawn cannons. The weapons of a soldier of the world's superior military were virtually no different than the weapons used by a hunter taking down dear. The colonies, of course, had to use militias to fight the british because they had no formal military as they were in rebelion against their government.

From this position the second amendment took shape. There are actually two forms of the Amendment. The first is what the house and senate passed, it reads:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The second is what was sent to the states to ratify:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The differences are fairly important since the first implies that it is the militia that cannot be infringed and the latter implies that it is the right to bear arms that cannot.

...but either way the amendment is utterly inapplicable to modern life. In the first place it does not, as the NRA claims, provide for the ownership of any weapon the citizen might want. A strict originalist reading entitles citizens to 18th century muskets. A more generous reading allows for the ownership of militia appropriate weapons. The problem with that interpretation is that militias are no longer effective fighting forces, they can no longer guarantee "the security of a free State." A bunch of hill billies with splatterguns are by no stretch of the imagination more than a road bump for the United States military.

If evidence of this is needed one need only look at Ruby Ridge. Despite having quite the arsenal, Randy Weaver was easily taken out by Marshalls and the FBI. Hopefully I don't have to point out that the FBI is many orders of magnitude weaker when it comes to force projection than, say, the Marine Corps.

The concept that owning guns protects you from a rogue government is simply false. The times have changed. Now some might argue that Iraq is direct evidence that an informal militia with simple weapons can threaten the US military. The problem with that argument is that by far the most successful tactic of the insurgency in Iraq is the use of improvised explosive devices, home made bombs using common items like cell phones for triggers. When they try stand up attacks with rifles they are almost always mown down by the vastly superior conventional arms of the US Army.

In an insurgency the key is to blend into the crowd. A guy carrying an AR15 doesn't blend in so well. A guy carrying soap chips does. Rather than being an aid against a hostile government owning guns is actually a hinderance in this day and age. You are far better off with a chemistry set.

And, specifically aginst the US government, there is a far better weapon. The biggest weakness of the US government that individual citizens could be armed to take advantage of, in case of despotism, is the computer infrastructure. In other words if you want to be armed against the government learn to hack/crack/phreak. That makes you much more of a threat.

At the same time the second amendment offers no guarantee of right to own weapons to protect against crime. Not one word. Even if we allow for the right to bear arms against criminals such a need is much better fulfilled through non-lethal weapons such as tasers and mace as these will generally not be fatal during the inevitable accidents while still providing consistent incapacitation of a threat. Nor does the second amendment provide for the right to own hunting weapons. It only provides for a milita, and that is sadly outmoded.

The second amendment is nothing more than a vestigial apendage left over from a time when our society and technology were far less evolved.

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I posted this comment in an open thread, but it's applicable...

...here:

I'm conflicted.

I know how to shoot, but I'm not particularly fond of guns; don't own them, and don't intend to.

Gun rights advocates can give me the "people kill people" argument all day long, and, while technically correct, the widespread availability of guns makes it a hell of a lot easier.

That said, the Second Amendment is an integral part of the Bill of Rights, and I would NOT f*ck with it.

Iraq and Viet Nam are case studies in what insurgents can accomplish in their own country by employing guerrilla tactics, even against a vastly better armed occupying force. Do I think such a scenario is remotely likely in the U.S.? Absolutely not. Unless the government was willing to use WMD against its own people, it would certainly fail--in large measure because we are armed to the teeth. They'd have to be insane to even try it. Besides, there are much better, subtler ways to keep people in line: credit cards, television and the invisible cloud being.

I can understand why people hoard guns, and why they'd be hesitant to let them be registered. I just wish the same people would understand why we're skeptical of letting the state listen to phone calls without warrants, amass vast databases, deny due process, or revoke right of habeas corpus.

If we're serious about reducing violent crime, we should address the root social deprivation and injustice that spawns it, and end the "other" war on liberty--the drug war.

Likewise, if we really want to fight terrorism, not just give boisterous speeches on aircraft carrier decks, we should stop participating in and supporting it.

I think your Ruby Ridge example is fatally flawed in the sense that it's relatively easy to bring concentrated force to bear on a single small target. If the objective were to control 300 million people for any extended period of time, the order of difficulty magnifies itself exponentially.

It's debatable whether the 2nd amendment was intended to guarantee individual gun ownership, but it has come to be understood that way. As a proponent of evolving interpretation, a living document, I think that idea should be respected, and I say that having been previously robbed at gunpoint.

"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell

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True, but...

I think your Ruby Ridge example is fatally flawed in the sense that it's relatively easy to bring concentrated force to bear on a single small target. If the objective were to control 300 million people for any extended period of time, the order of difficulty magnifies itself exponentially.

While true this fact has nothing to do with the presence or abscence of guns. It simply has to do with the quantity of people.

I don't understand your claim that the 2nd A is an integral part of the Bill of Rights. If we were to delete it how would the rest of the Bill of Rights be at all affected? See I'd say that the 2nd Amendment was actually quite a separate thing. Whereas removing the 4th amendment would cause some serious problems with other enumerated rights, removing the 2nd doesn't at all because the 2nd will never again be used to guarantee the rights of people. Again c.f. Ruby Ridge, Waco, et cetera.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I don't think the state should have a monopoly on violence.

Granting it that monopoly subjects the other enumerated rights to the benevolence of whomever might happen to be in power. Hence, it is integral. That's not to say that many governments with more restrictive gun laws don't allow for similar civil liberties.

I think you'd concede that 300 million people with guns are a lot harder to control than 300 million without. As I said, I don't particularly like guns, and gun ownership is not without serious problems, but, on balance, I'd allow it anyway.

Aside: I'm not a proponent of craziness like allowing people to carry guns onto airplanes, or to have them in schools.

"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell

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A monopoly on violence is impossible, Autarkh.

It will never be possible for the state to monopolize violence because human beings are damn fragile. If you really want to kill someone with a paper clip you can do it. It'll be messy but it can be done.

As before the best weapons against an out of control government are not guns so your objection here makes no sense.

I think you'd concede that 300 million people with guns are a lot harder to control than 300 million without.

Since neither is remotely controlable I can't concede that. Zero is never less than zero. besides which in any concievable future where an insurrection occurs it won't be 300 million people participating in it. It will be some almost certainly tiny fraction of that number. When that happens you don't want to be walking around with guns. You want to be walking around with a cellphone you use to trigger the bomb as the convoy goes by.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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You're right.

It isn't possible, but giving the state a dramatically more effective means, and denying it to the people, is unwise. Of course, Guns are moot when WMD are on the table.

As before the best weapons against an out of control government are not guns so your objection here makes no sense.

Agreed with the bolded part. That doesn't mean guns wouldn't play a role. I think you're underestimating what even a small, committed subset of the population could do.

"Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those of his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence." - George Orwell

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guns are a symbol

There is a symbolic value to allowing people to walk around with publicily displayed arms. It means that the government is not trying to suppress the people.

 See the Black Panthers for example: when they started to walk around with guns, the CA government flipped out, specifically because the CA government was suppressing the blacks, and therefore knew that those guns would soon be turned against government officials.

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas

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Substance...

is more important than the symbol. Since guns do not prevent the government from supressing you the symbol is misleading, which makes it dangerous as a false sense of security.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I maintain

as you do that the amendment is misinterpreted. to me, it applies to any arms (the word used) by individuals who could be called to a militia. the fdounders probably would have thought it funny to interpret it so that women could have arms. Becasue, as independentminded says below, women get all emotional and all, and if they had guns, simple arguments and PMS would end up in deaths. (I kid, I kid) (So does Bill Maher)

The truest statement i ever heard about guns is this: "If two year olds had guns, there would be no parents."

Now, the crux: I have yet to see an argument for having rifles that didn't apply to any arm, including my favourite, flame throwers. I know that dates me, but they have always fascinated me. Bazookas aren't bad, either. I;d settle for one of those, if I had to.

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Misinterpretation of the 2nd Amendmant--lots to go around:

Frankly, I think many, many people misinterpret the 2nd Amendment, which only applies to military, law-enforcement people ( police, etc.), and security personnel. Imho, guns do not belong in civilians' hands. There've been too many disastrous results when people get into heated arguments, and, with the presence of guns, end in a severe blow-out, resulting in immediate and permanent maiming and/or murder. That being said, I'm not a big fan of the entire United States becoming an Old Western Frontier.

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2nd ammendment only for government officials?

The idea that the 2nd amendment was for government officials seems absurd. The bill of rights was specifically to empower non-official persons.

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas

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make an amendment

Are you proposing that we eliminate the 2nd amendment? The way to do that would be to pass another amendment. I have little respect for people who suggest that we modify the Constitution outside of the proper channels (the amendment process).

Are you suggesting that we repeal the 2nd amendment? Do you suggest any particular wording, or just a blanket repeal?

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas

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Mostly

my point was to discuss whether the amednment fills any modern use. Since I contend it doesn't I'd be quite open to the idea of amending the constitution to repeal the second.

i agree that the constitution should be modified through proper channels.

However, a more politically realistic solution to the problem I think is to charge an exhorbinant tax on bullets. Exempt shooting ranges for any ammo used on the range (and scrupulously audit them).

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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2nd amendment in the context of the times

One interesting thing about hte 2nd amendent is how it compares to similar amendments in state constitutions. For exmaple, look at the Pennsylvania Constitution , section 21:

The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.

This seems to be a more extensive protection than the 2nd amendment. Why is that? Could the states grant power (confiscation of weapons) to the Federal government when the states didn't have that power themselves? I don't know the details of how PA endorsed the US Constitution or when this section was placed in the PA Constititution, but it seems odd that the Federal Constititution would have fewer protections than the state constitions.

 

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas

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strategy of resistance

There is one idea in this diary that I strongly endorse: that armed resistance is not the primary means by which modern Americans would/should resist a tyrannical state.

 I think that a general strike, combined with civil disobedience and other attempts to disrupt "the system", would be the best way to resist a tyrannical regime. 

 However, I'm not sure that armed resistance would have no role. Furthermore, I think that attempts at civilian disarmament serve no purpose. Even when these programs don't create problems of their own, they still fail to address the real cause of violence...broadly described as "societal breakdown". Gun control laws just seek to make the people easier to rule, rather than seeking their consent to be ruled. On that basis, gun control laws are inherently tyrannical.

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas

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1 agreement with a serious caveat

I fully agree that the presence or lack of guns does not meaningfully change the occurance of violence.

What guns change is the severity of that violence which does occur.

Not many people can walk into a McDonalds with a knife and kill 14 people. Any a$$hole with an uzi can do just that easily. Removing guns from the system will substantially reduce the body count, not by making people less interested in killing, but by making it a little harder to do.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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A sugestion

I think reading some facts from the other side of this issue would be benifical to this discussion just saying the right says or the NRA says doesn't get us there.

There are very good facts to support the rights/my position on this issue:
Gun Facts 4.2 (pdf)

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

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I'd prefer

a more non-partisan source for "facts."

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Here you go.

This is probably more in line with your definition of "non-partisan":

http://www.bradycampaign.org/

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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More non-partisan?

A civil libertarian is not neutral enough for you?

I would love to see a more non-partisan factsheet, got a link?

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

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Well, no

A civil libertarian is not non-partisan since he clearly declares that he is for the right to bear arms. He takes a position on the matter before seeking out data (because of his political beliefs). That's pretty much the definition of partisan, Steve.

I don't have a comparable fact sheet from a source that seems non-partisan. I looked for a little bit but the huge volume of pro- and anti- literature makes it hard to find anythig that is objective and neutral. If you have any ideas of good organizations to try I'm willing to spend more time looking.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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You missed the point

this issue only has two sides...

If you choose to ignore the facts from the other side that to me is intellectually dishonest.

Unless your using this post as a sounding board to only spout the position of the side you agree with... if so - more power to ya!

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

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That is startlingly binary, Steve

Surely you realize that in the first place there are not only two sides. There are a multitude of poisitions. but even if we up the contrast on our political filter so it looks like just two sides hopefully you realize that there are people who are not committed to either.

We call those people "non-partisan." The Brady campaign is obviously partisan. The NRA is obviously partisan. If the FAS or AAAS or NAS came out with a fact sheet on guns in america that's an entirely different thing. I looked for one from them and didn't find any, unfortunately.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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No

First:

There are a multitude of poisitions

Not true! There are varying degrees of compromise from one side or the other!

Second

hopefully you realize that there are people who are not committed to either.

We call those people "non-partisan."

Again, No! we call those people noncommittal... non-partisan denotes political party affiliation.

Look my point was to make available the other side of the story so those who happen to be noncommittal have arguments from both sides of the issue.

But again, this is your post and if you wish to only present one side that's cool... Its your bloggyhorse!

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

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Steve, come on.

Again, No! we call those people noncommittal... non-partisan denotes political party affiliation.

no, "partisan" means an adherent to something, it need not be a party, it can in fact be a cause, or even a person. Fredheads are partisans even if independents. NARAL volunteers are partisans too, again regardless of party.

Look my point was to make available the other side of the story so those who happen to be noncommittal have arguments from both sides of the issue.

But it's the type of information. The "gun facts" paper purports to be a factual debunking of various "myths." That;s the kind of thing that is far better to leave to non-partisan sources.

Now the subjective arguments about constitutional meaning, or nobility of self defense or whatever, those are fine to come from pro-gun sources because they aren't asking us to trust their factual nature but are instead presenting a subjective argument.

Make it simple-
facts should come from non-partisans
arguments should come from partisans (all sides)

If everyone agrees on the facts then we can hash out the arguments, but it's not worth playing dueling sources. Look at the global warming deniers if you want to know how tedious and useless that is.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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You can rationalize it any way you want to...

...by that yardstick this site is useless because facts are subjective and driven by the presenter.

Everyone has an agenda, like it or not, finding a truly "non-partisan" (your word which is starching the meaning here on a political site) independent source is next to imposable.

If everyone agrees on the facts then we can hash out the arguments, but it's not worth playing dueling sources.

If everyone agrees on the facts??? The facts told by whom - me, you, that guy, someone else???

The problem here is there has been no agreement on the facts... but again your bloggyhorse

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

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say what?

...by that yardstick this site is useless because facts are subjective and driven by the presenter.

If you're saying what I think you are I can only answer that by and large many people here try to offer direct links to the validate the supposed facts in their posts and when they link directly to highly partisan sources they mainly get called on it.

Ask GoRight, he gets called on the anti-agw links he uses constantly.

The point of this place is primarily to put the various partisan arguments in direct contest with each other. My original diary is a partisan argument. There are some referenced facts, and any of those I thought might be disputed or not universally known I sourced to wikipedia which by and large is pretty non-partisan. I did not source the stuff about the american revolution because I figure everyone agrees on those facts, maybe I'd be wrong and someone would challenege my presentation. Then I'd need to provide a source (assuming it's someone I care about convincing).

Everyone has an agenda, like it or not, finding a truly "non-partisan" (your word which is starching the meaning here on a political site) independent source is next to imposable.

That's only sort of true, Steve. Everyone does have an agenda but no everyone does not have an agenda with regards to every issue.

NARAL certainly has an agenda, but that doesn't mean they are partisan on every issue. Abortion? Hell, yes. Municiplally subsidized utilities? Not so much.

A better example is an organization like the AAAS (American Association for the Advancement of Science). They have an agenda of promoting American science to try and be the best in the world. On issues of how much of GDP should be relegated to science grants they are certainly partisan. In the gun debate? No. It's not their issue. And because they have a strong background of data analysis and comprehensive review they make an ideal source for non-partisan data on what exactly guns do in american society.

There are non-partisan groups, hopefully some of them have studied the issue in depth. But finding those studies among everything else can be difficult.

If everyone agrees on the facts??? The facts told by whom - me, you, that guy, someone else???

That's precisely what I'm trying to avoid. When "facts" come from partisan sources they become just another thing to be argued about instead of argued from.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Again my point was only this...

...in the absence of truly independent facts lets share both partisan views here. Thats all.

That's precisely what I'm trying to avoid. When "facts" come from partisan sources they become just another thing to be argued about instead of argued from.

Like I said - If your intention was to present facts from your side and then have people argue them without sourcing the other side thats cool. your post - your rules - no problem.

I don't think my sharing facts from the other side was out of line as its (standard operating procedure) here from everyone else. You know as well as I do if I were to come here and post a pro-gun diary the "fit would hit the shan" and I'd be bombarded by links to KnownFacts™ about "Anti-gun facts"

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

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No

First:

There are a multitude of poisitions

Not true! There are varying degrees of compromise from one side or the other!

Second

hopefully you realize that there are people who are not committed to either.

We call those people "non-partisan."

Again, No! we call those people noncommittal... non-partisan denotes political party affiliation.

Look my point was to make available the other side of the story so those who happen to be noncommittal have arguments from both sides of the issue.

But again, this is your post and if you wish to only present one side that's cool... Its your bloggyhorse!

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777

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Thanks for writing this.

While there is much to quibble and disagree with in this diary I have made the decision to refrain from making any substantive commentary as it will only lead to argument for no purpose.

You did, however, provide one bit of information that I was heretofore unaware of and that is the discussion related to the evolution of the text of the 2nd Amendment.  There is a good discussion of the chronology of that evolution at the Free Republic which provides references for each step along the way.  See:

The Second Amendment and Commas (Repost- Revised)

From this it is evident that the extraneous comma's which appear on the parchment copy of the Bill of Rights displayed by the National Archives were, in fact, transcription errors.

The text actually exchanged between the houses during debate and committee modifications did not carry the extraneous commas, and as you point out neither did the text that was sent to the states for ratification.

This makes it abundantly clear that the legislative intent was for it to be the right of the people to keep and bear arms that shall not be infringed.

This is an extremely important part of our heritage and I thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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extra commas

The version with three commas (four phrases) makes no sense to me. If the fourth phrase refers to the first phrase, then the third phrase has no connection to the rest of the sentence.

"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man." --Frederick Douglas

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There is no proper reading of the 3 comma version

that has the "shall not be infringed" modifying the militia, which contradicts Tlolac's assertion that it would.  The only reasonable reading of that version would have clause 2 modifying clause 1, and clause 4 modifying clause 3.

The rules of grammar alone would not support the contention that clause 4 was modifying clause 1.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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