Thursday Open Thread

In world news today, former Prime Minister Bhutto returns to Pakistan , and French President Sarkozy and his wife split while a subway, bus, and train strike shuts down Paris. In the US, the House will attempt to override Bush's veto of the SCHIP expansion bill. And, in lighter news, a NYC women found a 7-foot python emerging from her toilet . The Indians try to close out the Red Sox tonight, but Beckett will be on the mound looking to repeat his success from Game 1 and get Boston back in the series.

Update: there was an apparent assassination attempt on Bhutto.

What's on your mind?

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what are the chances

of the House overriding Bush's veto.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

…………

Not high from what I gleaned on the radio this morning....

They need 12 crossovers and one of the Republican congressmen from Maryland whom they counted on (because he voted for the original S-CHIP) has stated that he won't go against the veto.

………… parent

Update: Went down in the House

only 273 to override -- need, what? 289?

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll982.xml

The Dems must be soooo relieved! they have something to run on, beside wishing for America's defeat :)

Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous

………… parent

Cut that stuff out about Democrats wishing for

America's defeat!

I don't know you from Adam, but I can already sense you're one ugly person. & I don't mean that physically, I mean that emotionally & mentally.

………… parent

Hey Specter, is this a personal attack?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Relax! did you miss the smiley -- :) ??

p.s. Thank you, Dr. Phil!

Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous

………… parent

get real dude

Oksana's comment was less offensive than your own run of the mill rants :) Actually neither are a big deal - we should take each other a bit more lightly. After all we are actually talking to each other so it's not that bad.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

That's right! as long as we're dialoguing and interfacing,

it's all good ;)

Oh, Ender, I read somewhere? that John Dean's gonna be in Second Life -- is that in your Second Life too? or?

Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous

………… parent

yeah it is one and the same

maybe PF mentioned it?

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

LOL

The Dems must be soooo relieved! they have something to run on, beside wishing for America's defeat :)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

See? GR gets the joke! sheesh

Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous

………… parent

Heads up

I don't think it's funny either. But now that I think about it, I think you have it backwards.

It is Republicans that are obsessed with trying to Destroy America.

Pretend patriots putting the country in debt, destroying our infrastructure, our safety nets, and little things like handing over free tax payer dollars to corrupt Iraqi politicians, while folks you clap louder.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

When Norquist said "strangle the beast"

he was explicitly talking about the american government.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Sad

And while they are busy slandering our institutions, and our constitution they only pretend to govern. What they are really doing is nothing, while they steal our money and pretend that they care about the little people.

Have you watched any of the new Attorney General hearings. Good Lord. What they have done to the Justice Department is beyond beyond alarming. The DOJ is a mess thanks to apologists for Bush.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

I though Ashcroft was bad.

But I have to give him some credit now that we see more of what Alberto did. That man was a walking play toy for the extreme right. Addington & Cheney had their way with him every which way.

………… parent

Passing you a virtual Kleenex! there, there ....

Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous

………… parent

How adorable

sympathy from a conservative.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Spending hundreds of

billions for a war in Iraq that has turned into a hot bed for terrorists vs spending 7 billion a year for health care for hard working Americans.

Health care for Americans seems like a higher priority to me.

I hate the tone of this debate from the republican side. It literally sickens me.

It is the economy, stupid.

…………

and we hate the usual blather about the children

from the Democrats. It's been sickening us for literally decades.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Your attitude

and that of your political allies so disgusts me that I will not be able to discuss the issue in any sort of civil tone.

So I won't.

Have a nice day.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

after all

Democrats have been fearmongering about the children and the elderly for God knows how long. Hard to be civil after so much hatred coming from your side :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

Ditto x10 for me!

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

it's like

we are evil or something :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

No you aren't evil.

You just don't want working families to be able to buy health insurance they can afford.

Just cause you hate kids doesn't make you evil. It just means that on Halloween, your house gets it. How's that coming by the way? Got your cans of pepper spray ready?

………… parent

Karma

I guess we'll see how the voters feel about the republican resistance to schip, won't we?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Brownback might be out

of the prez race . It's not like he ever had a chance. Not sure what he was thinking.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

…………

China and Iran

fill the void of supply electric power for Iraq.

The Sadr City Project

Iraq has agreed to award $1.1 billion in contracts to Iranian and Chinese companies to build a pair of enormous power plants, the Iraqi electricity minister said Tuesday. Word of the project prompted serious concerns among American military officials, who fear that Iranian commercial investments can mask military activities at a time of heightened tension with Iran.

The agreements between Iraq and Iran come after the American-led reconstruction effort, which relied heavily on large American contractors, has spent nearly $5 billion of United States taxpayer money on Iraq’s electricity grid. Aside from a few isolated bright spots, there was little clear impact in a nation where in many places electricity is still available only for a few hours each day.

Putin backs Irans right to build nuclear energy reactors, and China and Iran takeover the task of building electric power grids.

American tax payers spent billions in private contracts to build electric power plants that didn't deliver only a few hours of electricity to local Iraqi's trying to go about their daily lives.

It is the economy, stupid.

…………

Well, bush43 invades a country for it's oil,

that's been backed up by most recently, President Vladmir Putin , ex-Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan , and a host of ex-Armed Forces leaders. Then they all wonder why Iraqi's don't trust the US nor it's leaders and the right whines about being betrayed by Iraqi's because they don't like us.

Yea....that takes a rocket scientist to figure out. It is bad enough being clueless walking through life, but it's ugly to see those who are clueless and have a chip on their shoulder because of it.

File this one under "Go Figure!".

………… parent

It's called

getting beaten at your own game.

Bush Republicans can't seem to do anything that helps the locals anywhere, like provide for the infrastructure of a functioning society with you know electricity.

After years of failure the Iranians and the Chinese get the contract.

Am I seeing a pattern here?

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Hmmm, I keep hearing this accusation about the war

being for oil.  But somehow the obvious seems to escape those making the accusation, we haven't gotten any oil.  If we went for the oil why haven't we taken the oil?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Just shows you what a moron dubya is.

Hey, you voted for the national idiot. I didn't.

………… parent

LOL, ok this one was funny.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Because all their other predictions also worked out so well...

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

C'mon GR :)

Why would you think that going to war for oil would profit anyone else besides oil companies? It's called "war for oil", after all, not "war that would profit the US taxpayers from Iraqi oil".

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

But don't the Iraqi's still have the oil?

Or have the American Oil Companies been hauling it away without the MSM noticing?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

The point was to put in place

a puppet regime through which we could control the oil and of course to give fat lucrative contracts to american firms to accomplish much of the work of rebuilding. The latter happened. The former was called the Coalition Provisional Authority, which if you recall was going to simply appoint Chalabi the Iraqi leader. It was only international outrage that prompted Bush to suddenly reverse course and call for elections.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Funny, I don't rememeber that part about Chalabi ...

The former was called the Coalition Provisional Authority, which if you
recall was going to simply appoint Chalabi the Iraqi leader. It was
only international outrage that prompted Bush to suddenly reverse
course and call for elections.

at least not in any permanent sort of way.  There was always the intention of having election so you reversing course comment is bogus on its face.

Can you back this up or are you talking out of your backside again? 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

You never do seem to recall

the facts that are inconvenient for you.

There was always the intention of having election so you reversing course comment is bogus on its face.

You are wrong. Try this for starters:

The Bush administration plans to take complete, unilateral control of a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq, with an interim administration headed by a yet-to-be named American civilian who would direct the reconstruction of the country and the creation of a "representative" Iraqi government, according to a now-finalized blueprint described by U.S. officials and other sources.

Gen. Tommy Franks, the head of the U.S. Central Command, is to maintain military control as long as U.S. troops are there. Once security was established and weapons of mass destruction were located and disabled, a U.S. administrator would run the civilian government and direct reconstruction and humanitarian aid.

...

Some 20 to 25 Iraqis would assist U.S. authorities in a U.S.-appointed "consultative council," with no governing responsibility.

...

In addition to the consultative council, an Iraqi commission would be formed to reestablish a judicial system. An additional commission would write a new constitution, although officials emphasized that they would not expect to "democratize" Iraq along the lines of the U.S. governing system. Instead, they speak of a "representative Iraqi government."

Officials said the decision to install U.S. military and civilian administrations for an indeterminate time stems from lessons learned in Afghanistan, where power has been diffused among U.S. military forces still waging war against the remnants of the Taliban and al Qaeda, a multinational security force of several thousand troops in which the United States does not participate, and the interim government of Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

Got that? No elections, no democracy. Instead US appointed administrators/representatives for an indeterminate amount of time.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

and more

The story of this reversal perhaps began in January 2004, when the spiritual leader of the Shiites, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, announced his opposition to an indecipherably complex American plan to hold eighteen regional caucuses, which would then choose a national assembly. Sistani demanded direct elections for the assembly instead. He may or may not have been a true believer in democracy, but he certainly understood that in any democratic vote Shiites would win power, reversing several centuries of rule by the Sunni Muslims, who make up only about 20 percent of Iraq's population.

The Bush Administration balked. Sistani insisted.

more

Moreover, as Swopa rightly reminds us all, the Bush administration opposed one-person, one-vote elections of this sort. First they were going to turn Iraq over to Chalabi within six months. Then Bremer was going to be MacArthur in Baghdad for years. Then on November 15, 2003, Bremer announced a plan to have council-based elections in May of 2004. The US and the UK had somehow massaged into being provincial and municipal governing councils, the members of which were pro-American. Bremer was going to restrict the electorate to this small, elite group.

Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani immediately gave a fatwa denouncing this plan and demanding free elections mandated by a UN Security Council resolution. Bush was reportedly "extremely offended" at these two demands and opposed Sistani. Bremer got his appointed Interim Governing Council to go along in fighting Sistani. Sistani then brought thousands of protesters into the streets in January of 2004, demanding free elections. Soon thereafter, Bush caved and gave the ayatollah everything he demanded. Except that he was apparently afraid that open, non-manipulated elections in Iraq might become a factor in the US presidential campaign, so he got the elections postponed to January 2005. This enormous delay allowed the country to fall into much worse chaos, and Sistani is still bitter that the Americans didn't hold the elections last May. The US objected that they couldn't use UN food ration cards for registration, as Sistani suggested. But in the end that is exactly what they did.

and more

Al-Sistani demanded Sunday that the provisional assembly, which would pick an interim government, be chosen by national elections.

and more.

Got it yet? The Whitehouse had no interest in elections it was Sistani who pushed for them and eventually got them over Bush's objection.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Pathetic. Simply pathetic.

The Whitehouse had no interest in elections it was Sistani who pushed for them and eventually got them over Bush's objection.

Yes yes, I see your left wing view and lies here.  Please find me a quote or a press release quoting Bush or a high ranking Whitehouse official where they object to holding elections in a reasonable timeframe. Even if they did express concerns about the timing, this only represents an acceleration of the expisting plan in response to Iraqi concerns.  Well, isn't that exactly what we should have done?  Listened to Iraqi concerns and given them a representative government like they were asking for?

Show me these objections you keep claiming. 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Prety much what I expected

You have the hysterical blindness thing down pat.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Look you are making claims about what the Bush Admin

did and said.  Rather than quotes from your left wing buddies I want some quotes from Bush or his Administration.  Is that an unfair bar?  I don't think so.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Given the administration's rather strained relationship with

truth, yes it is an unfair criteria. The key is what the did not what they said.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

OK, so as I suspected you got nothin' but left wing lies.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

And you always seem to recall things that never happened ...

I would challenge you on the credibility of this source, however in this case there is no need since even this source admits what I said was true.

The Bush administration plans to take complete, unilateral control of a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq, with an interim administration headed by a yet-to-be named American civilian who would direct the reconstruction of the country and the creation of a "representative" Iraqi government, according to a now-finalized blueprint described by U.S. officials and other sources.

...

An additional commission would write a new constitution, although officials emphasized that they would not expect to "democratize" Iraq along the lines of the U.S. governing system. Instead, they speak of a "representative Iraqi government."

This describes exactly what happened. Every bit of this describes the plan that was put in place and then executed step by step. As I DO recall the liberals were complaining that they elections would never be held on schedule and then they were and the liberals went on to make fun of all the purple fingers.

So how does that line up with my statement?

Funny, I don't remember that part about Chalabi ... at least not in any permanent sort of way. There was always the intention of having election so you reversing course comment is bogus on its face.

The sad part is that you probably actually think that your reference here supports YOUR side of this discussion. It doesn't. Not even close.

not in any permanent sort of way = indeterminate amount of time
always the intention of having election = representative Iraqi government

Every one the the steps described in your text occurred exactly as it was planned and executed. If you can't see that for what it is then you are beyond help.

Besides, where is the discussion of Chalabi in your reference? I explicitly talked about Chalabi and challenged your assertion that we had explicit plans to install him permanently, right?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Why would they have

to haul anything in order to make oil profits? Isn't it all about controlling the supply, and more specifically keeping it down?

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

Oh, so you're changing your story now?

It's not about oil, its about profits? Well, that isn't even true either. Who's in control of the flow of oil in Iraq right now and the profits therefrom?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

I'm not changing anything -

"war for oil" remember? Doesn't matter whose oil - if you can bring down the supply - the oil is worth more - no matter who actually owns IRAQI Oil, pumps it, refines it, or sells it.

If you're in the oil business you're making money.

Sic semper tyrannis

………… parent

the NSA spying bill

Senate and Bush Agree On Terms of Spying Bill :

Senate Democrats and Republicans reached agreement with the Bush administration yesterday on the terms of new legislation to control the federal government's domestic surveillance program, which includes a highly controversial grant of legal immunity to telecommunications companies that have assisted the program, according to congressional sources.

Disclosure of the deal followed a decision by House Democratic leaders to pull a competing version of the measure from the floor because they lacked the votes to prevail over Republican opponents and GOP parliamentary maneuvers...

and

The collapse marked the first time since Democrats took control of the chamber that a major bill was withdrawn from consideration before a scheduled vote. It was a victory for President Bush, whose aides lobbied heavily against the Democrats' bill, and an embarrassment for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), who had pushed for the measure's passage.

The draft Senate bill has the support of the intelligence committee's chairman, John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), and Bush's director of national intelligence, Mike McConnell. It will include full immunity for those companies that can demonstrate to a court that they acted pursuant to a legal directive in helping the government with surveillance in the United States.

First time? It seems to be that Dems roll over on pretty much every bill that deals with National Security and War in Iraq.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

…………

Let's see what the Conference Committee releases

before you go crowing about deep sixing the Bill of Rights. I'm not a happy camper about the Senate though, I can tell you.

Aren't you conservatives supposed to cherish the Bill of Rights? Sounds more like you think that it can be ignored without oversight. Hmmmmm.....Have you ever looked up the definition of Totalitarian? Just wondering what dictionary you are using.

………… parent

We do cherish the Bill of Rights.

We just don't think that liberal whining constitutes a valid violation thereof! :-P

 

Oh, and since this is a Democrat controlled Congress (BOTH Houses) they are not complicit in the whole thing if it goes all the way through! He he.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

How can you claim to cherish the Bill of Rights

when you are claiming that an Executive Branch shouldn't be balanced (as the Constitution requires) and overseen by the Judicial Branch.

Me sees that you speak with forked tongue.

………… parent

Where have I claimed this?

that an Executive Branch shouldn't be balanced (as the Constitution requires) and overseen by the Judicial Branch

I just don't agree that the bill in question eliminates them, since well, it doesn't.

And apparently our elected representatives who have sworn to uphold that constitution agree with me. 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

I can almost hear the nutroots' heads exploding!

Congress is now at 11% approval -- watch it plunge to single digits after this, especially since it seems the Dems are going along w/giving retroactive immunity to these telecom cos. -- maybe the nutroots wanted to bankrupt them too? they're all about the punitive -- punish everybody, except the terrorists! lol

Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous

………… parent

damn :)

Really well said. Kinda tells you the whole story when those netroots are all about punishing everyone on our side.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

………… parent

and they have no shame! it's all out in the open too ...

championing mass murderers 'rights' is beyond my comprehension -- Strange days, my dear, very strange days, indeed! :)

Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous

………… parent

Strange days

William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Are you demonizing ordinary Americans here,

since that is what your side claims the laws are being used to spy on?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Swing and a miss.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

If not ordinary Americans, then who plays the part of the Devil?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Reading comprehension

Okasan said: "they're all about the punitive -- punish everybody, except the terrorists! lol"

the analogy here really isn't that difficult.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

The whole point is that people are having their rights

infringed under the laws that the liberals don't like. The people they keep holding up as having been affected are ordinary Americans, right?

Why do the liberals refer to it as the Domestic Spying Program (implying that ordinary Americans are affected) when the truth is that it targets suspected terrorists and their international communications (i.e. at least one end of the call must be foreign, not domestic).

Your quote equates the people being thusly affected with the Devil. Since the people purported to have been affected by the laws in question are ordinary Americans. By the Media Matters reasoning it is I, as the listener, that gets to define what you meant, not you. I say that you are equataing ordinary Americans with being the Devil which is a Blame America First thing to do.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Unnecessarily lame

Just goes to show the lengths you will go to in order to make yet another accusation that liberals hate America. The Devil in the quote was invoked by the character symbolizing the conservative by analogy to the current situation, so if you really insist on the Devil equating to ordinary Americans, then that is an indictment of the conservative point of view. Probably not what you had in mind.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Even the Nazi's got a trail

at Nuremburg. Or had you forgotten.

That is what has made America great. Holding to a higher standard.

And your ilk makes excuses for not keeping America's standards high, just finger pointing will do, or perhaps a bribe. Run it up a flag pole and salute.

Strange days indeed.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

If memory serves ...

they got their trial AFTER the war was over.  This one is still in progress.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Speaking of Nazis, you should read your history

on how FDR handled the Nazi saboteurs who Hitler sent to the east coast with terrorist aims --

Hint: secret military tribunals and executions --- but that was back when liberals put U.S. interests first; can you imagine that now? I can't, sadly.

Today's liberals would be championing the Nazi saboteurs' "rights" ... my, my

Politics is a clash of interests masquerading as a clash of principles. – Anonymous

………… parent

FDR also

interned Japanese in camps. SCOTUS went along with him on both these cases.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

I know, those racist bast**ds.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Think Twice Before you USe history as context.

Was FDR popular. Did he make the case to all people. Did he aks the people to make a shared sacrifice. Did the people have war bonds. The country at that time was united in WWll, an experience that is not with us today.

Of course FDR got good grades in geography. He didn't attack Australia and claim it was the center of the German threat.

And let's see we had alllies in WWll. Remember that word. FDR didn't run around slapping everyone in the face and discounting their important.

And just in case you didn't know it, the evil socialist plot and democratic power play 'the scary school lunch program' was started to support the children of military families.

There is no comparison to what we have in the Middle East now and WWll.

.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

No need to think twice.

Were Republicans behind supporting the country then? Yes.

Are Republicans behind supporting the country now? Yes.

Were Democrats behind supporting the country then? Yes.

Are the Democrats behind supporting the country now? Doesn't look like it to me.

 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Apparently republicans *still* believe

that you have to destroy the village to save it.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Shees GoRight.

Bait and switch much?

We are trying to uphold the ideals America stood for when after WWll, instead

of appealing to the base urge for revenge killing we validated the process of

justice by putting the Nazi's on public trial so they could not claim a false

sense of martyrdom and injustice.

That is the context of my comment which Oksana took out of context to bash liberals. Then after explaining the solidarity of cause in WWll that FDR inspired to rally America to fight, you of course turn it into democrats hate America.

So please shut up with your Rush Limbaugh driven liberals hate America drivel you keep spitting all over the screen. I hope it makes you proud to be so slanderous of my patriotism! I really don't appreciate it at all.

It is the economy, stupid.

………… parent

Please provide some examples of war trials that occurred

BEFORE the end of the war.  If you want to to draw comparisons to the trials of the Nazi's then the timing of those trials is significant.  While the war was still in progress any captured Nazi's were held indefinitely as prisoners of war.  This is no different that holding the enemy combatants until the end of hostilities.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Please provide examples

that the people we are holding and 'not torturing' are in fact responsible for terrorist acts.

The Nazi War Criminals were captured after the war were clearly a part of the Nazi regime.

The US has pointed fingers at people had them rendered and tortured, without due process who were in fact innocent.

These are the findings of the enemy combatants in Guantanamo. If the news had a liberal bias we would be more aware of this.

From the Defense Department Data

We learn that many of the enemy combatants rounded up for Guantanamo were turned over by Pakistani's who were bribed to find for a cash reward persons of interests for the US to put on display.

. Fifty-five percent (55%) of the detainees are not determined to have committed any hostile acts against the United States or its coalition allies.
2. Only 8% of the detainees were characterized as al Qaeda fighters. Of the remaining detainees, 40% have no definitive connection with al Qaeda at all and 18% are have no definitive affiliation with either al Qaeda or the Taliban.

3. The Government has detained numerous persons based on mere affiliations with a large number of groups that in fact, are not on the Department of Homeland Security terrorist watchlist. Moreover, the nexus between such a detainee and such organizations varies considerably. Eight percent are detained because they are deemed "fighters for;" 30% considered "members of;" a large majority - 60% -- are detained merely because they are "associated with" a group or groups the Government asserts are terrorist organizations. For 2% of the prisoners their nexus to any terrorist group is unidentified.

4. Only 5% of the detainees were captured by United States forces. 86% of the detainees were arrested by either Pakistan or the Northern Alliance and turned over to United States custody. This 86% of the detainees captured by Pakistan or the Northern Alliance were handed over to the United States at a time in which the United States offered large bounties for capture of suspected enemies.

5. Finally, the population of persons deemed not to be enemy combatants - mostly Uighers - are in fact accused of more serious allegations than a great many persons still deemed to be enemy combatants.

Since this is the forever war, is it fair to allow these people, some of whom are guilty and some who are innocent to spend the rest of their lives in prison without access to any legal recourse whatsoever.

If the US is serious about fighting terrorism they should have a little more integrity about the process.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Sorry, your source is biased.

The "report" you reference was produced by legal counsel for two of the detainees. AS such they have a clear conflict of interest and cannot be considered an unbiased source as they are inherently biased (by virtue of their role as counsel for the detainees) against the US Government's position. By their very nature any information which they produce must be presented in a manner to best serve their clients and therefore to least serve US Government interests.

The Nazi War Criminals were captured after the war were clearly a part of the Nazi regime.

With over 50 years of hind sight you can say this now, but at the time was this so crystal clear? Doubtful.

The US has pointed fingers at people had them rendered and tortured, without due process who were in fact innocent.

<Illustration Liberal Silliness> And I am sure that during WWII there were no mistakes made in classifying certain persons as prisoners of war either. </Illustration Liberal Silliness>

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

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