The Immorality of "Corporate Social Responsibility"
It is highly politically-incorrect to challenge the very concept of "corporate social responsibility" (CSR), but the opposite should be the case. Proponents of CSR contend that a business has a moral obligation to "give back" some of its profits to society via philanthropy in one form or another. A truer way of phrasing such a supposed obligation is that the owners of a business must so use its profits. And the most representative statement would be that the management of a business has a moral obligation to divert some of the profits from the owners to such causes, even if doing so is not a good financial investment (e.g., cost-effective public relations), without the approval of the owners or even a sense that the owners wish to forego their income for this purpose.
Unless management of a business has reason to believe otherwise, their default assumption should be that the purpose of the business they manage is to maximize owner (shareholder) weatlh. Needless to say, the business is the property of the owners, and management have been hired to serve those owners, and the fundamental purpose of a business is to generate a return on investment. Management has a moral obligation to abide by the law and by ethical business practices (e.g., not deliberately misrepresenting their products/services, operations, etc. in ways that cause harm, even if doing so is not illegal), but for a manager to take money due the owners and spend it to benefit others at the expense of the owners is not only not a moral obligation, it is immoral -- it is theft. I would liken it to the legend of Robin Hood stealing from rich to help the poor, but even that comparison would be generous, given that even large corporations today have a great number of working class shareholders (e.g., via pensions/retirement accounts), while much corporate philanthropy (e.g., the arts) benefits primarily more affluent persons.
A business conducts exchanges with customers based on agreed prices that are high enough to be worth the business providing the products/services, and low enough to be worth the customer spending the money, and these exchanges inherently benefit both parties (as long as reasonable product/service expectations are met). Why conducting such exchanges produces an obligation of on the part of the owners of the business to sacrifice beyond what it took to provide the products/services is never quite explained. Management of a business should act legally and ethically. But unless management has good reason to believe the owners wish it to do otherwise, management should return the profits in full to the owners, who in turn can make their own decisions regarding philanthropy, and managers themselves can be charitable with their own money, not that of others.
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Comments :
absolutely
thanks for stating it well. Now if some of the owners want to waste/spend their money, they should be absolutely free to do so, but corporation itself has no obligation to society.
All it is is just a leftist idea to get more wealth redistribution through mob pressure.
"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR
Good post, B Rational.
your simple understanding of the social benefits of mutual exchange put you head and shoulders above large swaths of otherwise very intelligent and knowledgeable people.
Thanks man. I've always
Thanks man. I've always hated large swaths.
There's that word again
"mutual"
"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me". Nathaniel Lee
and?
Define mutual...
... then put it into context
"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me". Nathaniel Lee
Mutual exchange
in terms of transactions is an exchange between willing parties on a voluntary basis where both sides benefit in that each values what they receive more than what they give up.
I think you can see the context.
I can see the definition
but not the context. It is precisely because you view society as simple exchange that you fail to relate "mutuality" to the real world. Unless you take into account exchange and use value, the need to accumulate capital and understand the effects of competition then you'll be forever applying communal exchange theory to modern economics, two very different systems which have very different effects on the "players".
I didn't "mutualy agree" on what a loaf of bread costs or any other commodity, that price is determined by factors out of my control (which to save arguments we'll leave at that). If the cost of food suddenly rose, due to hyperinflation say, it would not stop me buying at the higher price, but to say that because I bought the bread for $50 means that I mutualy agree that that should be the proportion of my wages I spend on food is absurd. Much like your healthcare, I wonder how many people mutualy agree the prices there are fair?
"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me". Nathaniel Lee
Corporations seek the 'feel good' brand
of being socially responsible as a marketing tool. It is the new 'in' thing to do, globally.
So you are saying on principle that a corporation like Mars Inc
should not associate itself with 'Race for the Cure' as a way to market its global brand.
The Mars Brand
Offering Responsibility in Vietnam, Mutuality in Russia, Efficiency in France
and of course last but not least Quality in the USA, yummy good candy.
I think your formulation is much to simplistic in todays world of high tech data mining for market benefits, and globalized brands that benefit from donations to universities that do cancer research.
M&M's a subsidairy of the new and improved global brand 'Mars' donates a few cents from your purchase of candy to cancer research and helps sponsor the 'Race for the Cure'.
This multinational corporation might resent your suggestion that being socially responsibly is counterproductive, since they are trying to weave it into their overall *brand*. Just a 'feel good' coorporation making candy and promoting freedom around the globe.
Whether Mars Inc. is a good global citizen or not is a separate issue. It's the brand that counts, and associating the brand with popular causes, like curing cancer is seen as a plus.
IN this instance marketing overrides individuality.
I'm only half stupid
No offense, but you have
No offense, but you have fundamentally misunderstood the argument in my diary. Note my reference to "cost-effective public relations". No one disputes that corporate philanthropy or community involvement of one sort or another can be a good financial investment for a company, and as such, can be good business. But managers of a company choosing to devote resources to such causes as financial investments to maximize shareholder wealth is funamentally different from managers devoting resources (i.e., the shareholders' money) to causes that are not good financial investments (much less managers having a moral "responsibility" to do so), unless perhaps they have some good reason to believe that most or all of the shareholders would want them to do so (i.e., to engage in philanthropy on their behalf, perhaps to gain some organizational efficiencies, economies of scale, other other means to greater cost-effectiveness vs. philanthropy by each individual shareholder separately) .
So basically, your statement, "So you are saying on principle that a corporation like Mars Inc should not associate itself with 'Race for the Cure' as a way to market its global brand" is incorrect, for reasons I hope are clear now. Let me know if not.
No offense taken.
I guess I don't really see a fundamental difference in financial investments to maximize shareholder wealth, (shareholders money) vs managers devoting money that are not good investments (shareholders money). YOu want each individual to decide. The company decides by vote which leaves some shareholders left wanting justice, so to speak.
How often do shareholders actually vote, or have a say in which investments in philantropy will maximize the company brand, thus the shareholders profit.
And aren't they always some shareholders who must give in to the majority thus effectively letting the majority co-opt their financial desires for the company.
As in I don't think the shareholders at Mars Inc. all voted to donate proceedings from their profit shares to cancer research, therefore there is always some 'individual' that feels like they are on the losing end.
IN your wolrd you are trying to guarantee that no democrtaic process interferes with the rights of the individuals within a corporation to donate money to causes with which they disagree of are not interested in. Yes?
I'm only half stupid
First, let's not lose sight
First, let's not lose sight of the central argument of CSR advocates, which is that businesses have a moral obligation to engage in philanthropy and that managers have a moral obligation to use the shareholders' money to do so, whether or not they have reason to believe that most shareholders want them to do so. In my diary I explain why I reject that argument. I do go further, arguing essentially that such actions by managers are not only NOT a moral obligation, but are actually immoral (because it's essentially theft, albeit to help causes that are usually noble). But even before we get to that latter argument, we have the former -- whether or not the CSR advocates are right to assert that moral obligation on the part of businesses and on the part of managers (which are two separate assertions, debatable separately, by the way), and I reject that assertion.
Now, if managers have a good reason to believe that most shareholders want them to engage in a particular type of "bad investment" philanthropy (or "bad investment" philanthropy in general) to a particular degree (i.e., at what net cost to shareholders), then, while there is still the issue of the rights of the minority, I will say that such a situation would be at least an ethical gray area. As I've said, there are reasons why any large organization can engage in philanthropy more cost-effectively than many individuals doing so individually, and if, say, 98% of shareholders want to spend $X on what they acknowledge to be "bad investment" philanthropy next year, I would probably not call it immoral/unethical for the managers to do so.
But of course there are practical complications and limitations, here. I don't think that it is common practice and a typical occurrence for it to be explained to all shareholders that the proposed philanthropic spending for next X years is expected to lose $X net dollars (net of the positive impact of P.R./brand equity benefits, etc.), followed by a vote of all the shareholders on that particular matter, and resulting in a strong consensus on that decision. So, absent that kind of process with that kind of result, it would generally be highly presumptuous for a manager to assume that his shareholders want him/her to be philanthropic with their money. And given that, the moral/ethical default policy should be to refrain from doing so, generate wealth for the shareholders, and let them decide individually how and to what extent they wish to be philanthropic.
Yes. I get
what you are saying, and you have said it very well.
While you may think I am being a bit obtuse, I see this as the flip side, or the same side of the coin that is presented on many issues. Such as why should I pay Union Dues that support X, when I support Y. Or why should I pay tax dollars for public schools when my kids are in private schools. Why should I pay for such and such's health care when I don't even live in that state, etc. The bill of supreme individual rights, where no one has to give one dime of their earnings to support one cause or public program without prior consent.
I'm only half stupid
As I've said, if a small
As I've said, if a small minority objected to some particular type and/or amount of "bad investment" philanthropy by the corporation but the vast majority favored doing so, I wouldn't call it immoral for the managers to do so. But is immoral/unethical for managers to either (1) simply presume such a majority preference (for the managers to use the shareholders money for uses that the managers acknowledge are bad financial investments) or (2) to consider the preferences of the shareholders irrelevant and to use their money in ways that neither serve the shareholders financial interests nor reflect the shareholders wishes to sacrifice those financial interests.
Stepping back a bit, let me ask you this: If I own a corner store and I hire you to manage it, and some charitable organization approached you and asked for a substantial donation, and you did NOT believe that such a donation would serve my long-term financial interests (even net of whatever P.R. / brand equity benefit were gained), nor did you have any reason to presume that I would want you to make that donation with my money via the business, would it be:
a) A moral/ethical obligation for you to make that donation.
b) A moral/ethical obligation for you NOT to make that donation.
c) Something else.
I don't think the corner store
is a particularly good example.
But I would opt for b) but possibly c) asking the owner before I said yes or no just to make sure, if I thought there it might be something worthwhile (donations for fire victims) After all as the manager I am presumably in a position of earned trust of the owner. But I would never presume to speak for the owner without permission or some type of pre-arranged agreement.
A corner store doesn't have shareholders.
I'm only half stupid
ok, I'll take that as
ok, I'll take that as agreement on "b", given the terms of my hypothtical, which include that you, as the manager, have no reason to presume that the owner would want to make such a contribution with his money.
There's nothing wrong with the corner store as an example. The corner store most certainly does have a shareholder: the owner. Shareholders are owners. If the owner has a partner, then there are two shareholders. Regardless of the differences in type of business entity (sole propietorship, partnership, LLC, corporation, whatever), there are always owners, whether you refer to them as owner(s), shareholders, or whatever. The concept is still the same, even if communications between management and owners becomes more difficult and less clear as the organization becomes larger and more complex.
Your analogy fails
when the shareholders are not informed, or do not have a vote about the top owners plans to do X. which isn't altogether uncommon.
The concept may be the same to some extent, but everything changes when the shareholders are clamoring to meet the projected quarterly earnings report, that might not represent the hard value of goods, costs and profits, but instead represents a perceived value or potential rise in stock values, based on speculation of say what happens to heating costs going up due to a weather report of a looming hurricane.
I'm only half stupid
If we are talking about the
If we are talking about the following conditions:
1) Manager believes that the philanthropy in question would NOT be a good financial investment for the shareholders/owner (i.e., the people who are paying him/her to manage their property -- their income-producing asset).
2) Manager has no reason to believe that the majority of shareholders (corporate shareholders or the owner(s) of the corner store) wish to engage in the philanthropy in question (be it a particular type and/or level of philanthropy, or any philanthropy at all).
These conditions fit both the large corporation and the corner store, so the analogy is fine, and it seems that we agree (yes?) that it would be immoral/unethical for the manager to use the shareholders'/owners' money for that philanthropy under those conditions. Right?
Now, you seem to be bringing up a different situation, one in which the shareholders want management to make decisions that are not truly in the financial interests of the current shareholders or not in the interest of the long-term financial performance of the company, meaning not in the interest of future shareholders. That situation is categorically different from the one we are discussing, and raises fundamentally different ethical questions.
The corner store
with one owner, in my opinion is not analgous to a large corporation with many shareholders.
The corner store in all likelihood is not listed on the stock market. A large corporation would be.
The more people involved the more complicated it gets. The more people involved the more likely that one shareholder will be disgruntled due to a majority decision. He then makes the choice if the compromise is worth the long term gain. The compromise being staying with a company that gives money to causes he does not wish to invest in, because it is worth it to him for his own personal gain, staying employed, vacations, not wanting to move, whatever.
I'm only half stupid
Sorry to be repititious, but
Sorry to be repititious, but I've said twice already that if the strong majority of shareholders (or arguably, even a simple majority, although that's less clear and depends largely on what reasonable prior expectations had been regarding this policy) want to make the financial sacrifice of some "bad investment" philanthropy, I would not call it immoral for a manager to act accordingly, even if a small minority wished otherwise. The same would apply whether we are talking about a large corporation with many thousands of shareholders or a corner store with 5 owners (partners), if 4 of them want to engage in some particular "bad investment" philanthropy and 1 would prefer not to.
The distinction you are making does not diminish the appropriateness of the analogy.
What.....
corner store has five owners? With five owners you would never make a profit !$!
I get your point, but what you are missing is my point *point*..... ! ...... which is of course *the most* important point !
What you are calling bad investments, or philantrhopy is a choice made democratically (we hope) among the shareholders.
My point is that in group ownership, there will always be a minority that is not happy with a particular decision, and therefore makes the sacrifice that he may consider 'immoral' as an individual.
Therefore we see that in a democratic system, where individual shareholders have a vested interest and a vote, the art of doing business requires compromise and that it is not possible for each individual to be 100% satisfied.
I make the point to demonstrate that in a democratic system it is impossible to honor every single individuals self interest, which is what you advocate.
The corner store in my analogy has one owner so there is no democratic comparison.
I'm only half stupid
I'll leave it at that,
I'll leave it at that, because I don't want to be too repititous, and I think we're starting to say essentially the same thing to each other repeatedly.
I do want to just correct one apparent (or at least possible) misunderstanding: You write: "What you are calling bad investments, or philantrhopy..." I am not saying that all philantrhopy is a bad investment (some is cost-effective P.R., brand-building, etc.). When I refer to "bad investment philanthropy" I am referring only to philanthropy that does not represent a good investment for shareholders.
So in essence
aren't you saying that there are cases where civic minded social investments related to corporate social responsibility can be a) profitable and b) are not always immoral.
Therefore you are acknowledging that your statement unless management has good reason to believe the owners wish it to do otherwise, management should return the profits in full to the owners, who in turn can make their own decisions regarding philanthropy, and managers themselves can be charitable with their own money, not that of others. is not always true.
.
I'm only half stupid
of course. That's what I've
of course. That's what I've said all along.
although let me be precise:
although let me be precise: "responsibility" is not the right term, since it implies an obligation.
I don't see how you reconcile
your two opposing positions.
For a manager to take money due the owners and spend it to benefit others at the expense of the owners is not only not a moral obligation, it is immoral -- it is theft.
I am not saying that all philantrhopy is a bad investment (some is cost-effective P.R., brand-building, etc.). When I refer to "bad investment philanthropy" I am referring only to philanthropy that does not represent a good investment for shareholders.
In one instance you claim corporate philantrhopy is immoral theft, and in another you claim it is good investment.
So maybe just leave out the word philantrhopy altogether and just think in terms of investment value and get away from this language that corporate social responsibility is immoral, as it seems to reveal itself as a bit of a strawman.
I'm only half stupid
You are not understanding.
You are not understanding. I'll try again.
If a manager expends company resources (which is to say, the property of the shareholders/owners) on anything that he/she deems a good (or the best possible) financial investment for the shareholders/owners -- whether that good investment is philanthropic or building a new factory or whatever -- that act or policy is completely unrelated to my criticism. That's not what I'm calling "theft" and not what I'm calling immoral. A particular instance or policy of philanthropy CAN be a good financial investment investment for the shareholders (because of the net positive financial impact due to higher sales/profits from a better brand image, etc.), but it is certainly not NECESSARILY a good financial investment for the shareholders, and when it isn't, then the manager is being charitable with someone else's money. Unless that manager has good reason to think that at least most of the shareholders (or perhaps shareholders whose combined holdings comprise a majority of equity), then he/she is being charitable with someone else's money without any reason to believe that those people want him/her to do so, and that is what I'm calling theft, and that is what I'm calling immoral.
It's the same as if I were managing your corner store and just decided to give away half the merchandise free because I thought it would be a nice thing to do, even though I thought it would be bad for you financially, even in the long-term (even net of any financial benefits derived from any good P.R., etc.) and even though I have no reason to believe that you would want to make that financial sacrifice. I think that you, upon finding out that I had taken that liberty with your property, you would feel that I acted out of place, that I had essentially stolen your property and given it away.
I totally understand
And I stand by my statement in my previous post in which you take both sides of the issue. It (corporate social responsibility or philantrhopy) can and can't be profitibale. You have said both things.
Investment is fine as long as it brings a profit. Putting the word philantropy in front of investment doesn't change the fact that it is an investment that can produce profits as you have previously agreed.
Saying that corporate social responsibility is immoral is a strawman.
I'm only half stupid
No, you are misunderstanding
No, you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I've said. I'll try yet again.
Obviously some philanthropy is a good financial investment. Some is not. I have never criticized the former, and I have always distinguished it clearly and explicitly from the latter, which I have criticized and called immoral. I have said quite clearly that a manager using company funds for the latter, without any reason to believe that the shareholders/owners wish him/her to do so, is theft and is unethical and immoral, and I've explained clearly why.
To express it in yet another way, I have never called corporate philanthropy immoral. I have called the concept of "corporate social responsibility" immoral because its underlying premise is that (1) a business has an OBLIGATION to be philanthropic even if it is not in the financial interests of the shareholders/owners, and (2) that managers have an OBLIGATION to be philanthropic even if it is not in the financial interests of the shareholders/owners and even if they have no reason to believe that the shareholders/owners wish to make that sacrifice. Not only is it wrong to assert that such an obligation exists, a manager acting in that way is acting unethically/immorally.
I just don't know how to state it any more clearly. There's no contradiction in anything I've said, and there's no "srawman". You are simply misunderstanding what I've said.
I have nothing more to add
You have clearly demonstrated that owners, managers and shareholders have a choice in the matter.
So I still stand by my statement above, this 'immorality meme' is a strawman.
It isn't a matter of obligation or responsibility that I agree with you is it? As that would by your definition be immoral.
You may have the last word.
I'm only half stupid
We can just leave it at
We can just leave it at that.
good answer
;)
B Rational, how do you tell them apart?
How do you tell the two apart? It seems that it is all in the eye of the beholder. As long as the corporate officer says that he thinks there will eventually be payback (be it from a grateful community/customer base, loyal workers, a healhier local populace that in turn is more educated and thus has moer disposable income... etc.) then you can't argue that he is behaving in an immoral fashion even taking everything you said as true.
MissL clearly believes that good corporate social responsibility has payback in the form of a stronger community (which is your customer/worker base) so none of it is immoral for her.
First, telling them apart is
First, telling them apart is the same as telling the difference between any good investment and bad investment. And as with any investment decisions, obviously it is not always easy to determine which is a good (or the best) investment and which is not, and there will be differences of opinion -- that's why there's a whole world full of investors, managers, etc.
More importantly, the ability to tell them apart is beside the point as far as the philisophical/moral questions are concerned. The philisophical/moral questions are (1) is a business morally obligated to engage in philanthropy if it would NOT represent a good financial investment for the shareholders/owners, and (2) what is appropriate for a manager to do if HE/SHE does NOT believe the particular philanthropy is a good (or the best) financial investment for the shareholders, and if he/she has no reason to believe that the shareholders want to make the financial sacrifice. The advocates of CSR typically argue that the manager has a moral obligation to use company resources for philanthropy in that situation. I contend that, not only is it NOT a moral obligation, it is immoral/unethical for him/her to do so, since he/she would be essentially stealing from someone else (the shareholders) to engage in philanthropy with the shareholders' money at their financial expense and against their wishes.
As for payback from philanthropy, sure there can be some return on investment (ROI) for the shareholders, sometimes even enough to make it a good financial investment, but obviously that's not always the case.
Corporate Social Responsibility Thought Experiment
True story related to me by first hand witnesses: The project was to build equipment whose purpose was to defend US Soldiers in Iraq.
Some engineers explained that the requirements as given and planned for implementation were insufficient and needed to be changed. One of the responses (fortunately not the prevailing response) was "The Government will just pay us to fix it later"
So Option 1 was to inform (and probably argue with) the customer, and update the requirements.
Option 2 was build it as spec'ed with the result of a later contract to upgrade at a higher cost and for more profit, but with people likely dying as a result.
For the purposes of the thought experiment, we are going to agree that the person who believed the government would pay them to fix it was correct. Therefore, Option 2 would lead to higher profit than Option 1 (Yay stockholders!) Again for the purposes of the discussion, let us assume that the gratitude of the government contractor to being told his engineers' specs were bad was fairly trivial.
I'd argue that it was a form of corporate social responsibility to follow Option 1 anyways. And since the corporate mission statement also supported Option 1, there was no victimization of the stock holders. They had been duely notified that Option 1 was part of the corporate culture and part of their CSR morality. Invest or don't invest as you choose.
And that's the crux of CSR. If it is part of you corporate mission and you are public about your intent to follow it, then it isn't stealing from anyone. Likewise if MissLiberties wishes to reward such a culture with her business, then it is moral for her to do so. If she wishes to enforce such a culture with laws (like, say the anti-pollution laws) then that is moral too. It seems like the only 'immorality' by your definition would be a company who was vicious and cut-throat and then, with no opportunity for the share holders to evaluate the new policy suddenly started spending all their money to philonthropic ends in violation of their reaver-esque mission statement.
Any point of disagreement here?
Please see my reply
Please see my reply downthread in a fresh comment at left margin.
Thanks knocienz
CSR isn't a required obligation, but it surely isn't immoral to give back to your community.
I'm only half stupid
In fairness to BR
I don't think he believes that it is immoral to give back to the community, just that the CEO and share holders should give it back from their personal income rather than corporate funds.
And actually, I might be OK with that if you also removed the Corporations' ability to have any impact on the laws that affected them. Once you give them power to affect the rules that affect society, they gain responsibility in kind.
Yeah
I get BR's point, but I also like yours.
Once you give them (corporations) power to affect the rules that affect society, they gain responsibility in kind.
I'm only half stupid
I figured you got it
That was exposition for the audience. You know, like when one character in the movie explains something to another character who already knows everything; but the audience needs to find out somehow and flashbacks can be a bit jarring. :-)
Would you agree
maybe, that "giving back to your community" is morally neutral, and whether it is vice or virtue depends on the facts of the case? If i rob you, and share the proceeds with the community, is that good?
How about if someone uses the power of government to take people's money by force to implement their own morality, which may give something back to the community? Vice, right?
It's all about balance.
Reply to knocienz
I’m glad you raised that point, and I probably should have addressed the matter of exceptions and gray areas more broadly and explicitly in my diary. Thanks for raising a worthwhile point and expressing it well.
In your hypothetical, not only would I NOT call Option 1 immoral, I would call Option 2 immoral. In my diary I stated that “Management has a moral obligation to abide by the law and by ethical business practices (e.g., not deliberately misrepresenting their products/services, operations, etc. in ways that cause harm, even if doing so is not illegal).” Your hypothetical takes the circumstances a bit further, to one of knowing that the customer is making a mistake that will have the gravest of consequences and choosing not to inform him. It is arguably unethical/immoral for a manager to choose not to correct a customer on ANY misconception he obviously has about the product/service that will likely lead to negative consequences, but the moral obligation becomes clearer when those negative consequences are very severe, as in your hypothetical.
And there are other exceptions to the rule – the rule being that it is generally unethical/immoral for a manager to essentially be charitable with the owners’ money at their financial expense and against their wishes (or at least without reason to believe they wish it). Here’s one, which is a hypothetical based on a real event: I'll never forget seeing on TV a video from 9/11 in which, as a mountain of thick smoke was barreling down the street following the first tower collapse, an employee of a convenience store on that street opened the door and urged a pedestrian to get inside to avoid the oncoming smoke. That act may have saved the life of that pedestrian. Now, would I say that that employee was acting unethically or immorally because, by opening the door, she risked smoke getting in the store and damaging some of the produce? Of course not. Quite the contrary, if she had kept the door closed, let’s say not even allowing the pedestrian in if the latter pleaded to be let in, and did so solely out of concern for the fruits and vegetables and the profit they represented, that would have been immoral. Even if the owner had been there, known the circumstances, and ordered the employee not to open the door due to concern about the fruits & vegetables, the employee would still have the moral obligation to open that door. Now, in that last case, sacrificing the owner’s property against the owner’s wishes would constitute theft (broadly defined), but there are extreme conditions under which theft can be a moral obligation. (I realize that that last line opens up a philisophical/moral can of worms and pours them down a slippery slope, but it’s true – any type of act can be the right thing to do under some circumstances. A deontological view of morality does not make sense. A consequentialist view does.)
Another example: GE's dumping of 500,000 pounds of PCBs into New York's Hudson River from the 1950s through the 1970s may have been legal (I don't recall), but I would consider it unethical and immoral, regardless of whether or not it served the short or long-term interests of the shareholders. (It has also been an ongoing P.R. problem and GE may end up spending a lot to clean it up, but that's irrelevant to the morality/ethics issue.)
So there are indeed exceptions to the rule, but they shouldn’t be taken as support for the principle that CSR advocates wish to establish/maintain, which is that (1) a business has a moral obligation to “give back” via philanthropy, and (2) that managers have a moral obligation to do so, even if it is not in the financial interest of the shareholders/owners and even if they have no reason to believe that the latter wish to make that sacrifice.
Now as for as a known corporate policy making it ethically ok to sacrifice the financial interests of the shareholders for “bad investment” philanthropy (i.e., they knew the policy before investing), I addressed that to some extent in one of my comments on this thread: “if the strong majority of shareholders (or arguably, even a simple majority, although that's less clear and depends largely on what reasonable prior expectations had been regarding this policy) want to make the financial sacrifice of some "bad investment" philanthropy, I would not call it immoral for a manager to act accordingly, even if a small minority wished otherwise.” An underlying assumption of your argument seems to be that the shareholders have all given implicit approval for this philanthropy, because the policy was known (via the corporate mission statement or whatever) and they chose to invest, so even if they did not prefer this company policy, they at least accepted it (as part of the whole package represented by the company as an investment), and therefore such philanthropy is not stealing and is not immoral, and you say that that is “the crux of CSR”. Well, while such a condition is indeed more possibly not immoral and indeed at least less immoral than the alternative condition you presented (a company having the opposite mission statement, against philanthropy, suddenly switching gears and giving out the shareholders’ money), I disagree on a number of points.
First, again, the “crux of CSR” is advocacy of the two points I stated above (#1 and #2), and using this advocacy to either change the financial calculus, making philanthropy a better investment for shareholders by imposing on companies and unfair demand -- getting consumers/customers/communities/etc. to see a company as a “bad corporate citizen” if they don’t engage in philanthropy (as if the exchange of goods & services for customers’ money weren’t a fair enough transaction, inherently benefiting both parties), or to pressure managers to steal from the owners to engage in philanthropy by creating the public perception that doing so is somehow MORE ethical rather than less, and offering managers praise and recognition for doing so and scorn for not. In other words, CSR, at its philisophical core and as practiced, is a form of extortion with regard to the owners – like if you owned and ran a hot dog stand on the street and I bought a hot dog, you gave it to me, I ate it, it was exactly what you said it would be, and then I turn around and tell you that you now have a moral obligation to give a dollar to my favorite charity, and if you do I’ll tell people you are a responsible citizen and if you don’t I’ll tell everyone you are selfish, heartless, and evil. And it is a form of incitement to theft with regard to managers – like if you hired Joe to run your hot dog stand and I pressured Joe in a similar way, telling him to give away your money even if Joe does not think it’s in your financial interests (even net of whatever I might do to harm the image of your business) to do so and even if Joe has no reason to think that you want him to make that financial sacrifice. Now, if Joe knows that the hot dogs contain some ingredient to which little Tommy Smith is so allergic that it will kill Tommy, he should not sell a hot dog to Tommy, even if it’s legal, even if it would benefit the owner financially, and even if the owner tells him to. But that’s an exceptional condition.
Secondly, as for investors knowing what they were getting, since the policy re: philanthropy was essentially known prior to their investing, I view that as only partly valid. Yes, in the case of, say, a mutual fund that presents itself to investors as having an investment profile focused deliberately and exclusively on companies that engage in a great amount of philanthropy – even to the extent that such philanthropy works AGAINST the financial interests of the shareholders – then it is clear that investors wanted the invest in companies that sacrificed some degree of ROI for the sake of philanthropy through those companies rather than through the individual shareholders. But in the case of most companies, let me present a roughly analogous hypothetical: Let’s say in Country X all (or almost all) the politicians are corrupt (they all deliberately misuse public funds for personal gain of one form or another) and you have to vote for some candidates if you want to vote at all (and choose the lesser of the evils, or candidates you may even like, on balance, despite their corruption). Does your vote for candidate Z mean that his corruption is NOT stealing from you as a taxpayer? Does it make it no longer immoral?
Reply to B Rational
This is a very long post and I'll have to be somewhat brief here.
I think you are skipping the concept of the psychic pay check. By this, I'm referring to the idea that jobs that allow the worker to feel good about their work tend to pay less because that feeling good impacts the supply/demand curve. Thus, teachers and nurses get paid less for their skill than undignified jobs like trash collecting (which has a reverse effect)
I'd say that if a company is set up to provide a 'psychic dividend' if you will then either they will get investors who are willing to accept that in lieu of financial dividends or they won't. As long as they are up front about it, I don't see anything immoral about it.
Also, did you have any comment on the relationship between the impact that corporations have on the laws that constrain them and their responsibility to society? If the CEO and shareholders were able to use only their own money for lobbying and issue advertisments I'd agree with you more.
No, I'm not skipping the
No, I'm not skipping the concept of a "psychic dividend" at all. In fact, I acknowledged and addressed it. One of my points has been that a manager should not PRESUME that a given opportunity for philanthropy that is financially detrimental to shareholders is a sacrifice that they are willing to make for this "psychic dividend", nor should managers regard it as IRRELEVANT whether or not the shareholders (at least a majority of them or those representing a majority of equity) wish to make this financial sacrifice.
As for ethics/morality regarding "impact that corporations have on the laws that constrain them and their responsibility to society", please see my comment here http://swordscrossed.org/node/1666#comment-72759 . As I state, there, I do think that political involvement by businesses can get into an ethical/moral gray area, particularly when a substantial degree of corruption is involved -- and I include both criminal corruption and the "legal corruption" of vastly disproportionate political influence that is likely to cause a politician/regulator/etc. to act against the interests of the general public. Extreme example would be a powerful corporation propping up a dictator who grants it a monopoly, keeps wages down via repression, etc. But conditions need not be that extreme to enter the ethical/moral gray area.
Psychic Dividend
Can you cite a real world example of this immorality then?
If a pharmaceutical company that creates AIDS drugs decides to give a bunch away in Africa, this is going to lower the dividend. Let's agree they are just doing it because they think that by making large amounts of money off of the existance of a disease carries the responsibility to help those who couldn't afford treatment. The corporate officers believe this to be a Corporate responsibility as well as a personal one.
If they inform the stock holders of the plan, and thus allow them to either vote them out or sell their stock I don't see the immorallity here. Yes, the other option would be for the CEO and those stock holders who feel that way to take their personal earnings and donate them, but they aren't taking any choice away from the stock holders. Those stock holders don't have some sort of inherent right to a pharmaceutical company that doesn't include philanthropy. (I have Kantist leanings, as long as their was neither deception nor force used, I don't see the moral crime)
As for the corporate impact on laws, I am being more thorough here. What are appropriate pollution laws? Fair labor laws etc? We as a society have the power and right to set those laws in return for defining and protecting the concept of property (IMO). Is it not equally immoral for a corporation to use its financial aggregation to lobby for laws that many (or even some) of its co-owners may not agree with as it is for them to use that same aggregation in support of social outcomes? Is it possible for them to engage in ANY type of political influence as a Corporation (rather than individuals) without a similar degree of corruption taking place? If so, please provide an example.
(As and aside, good conversation, even if we somewhat disagree (or maybe we don't, we just prioritize and communicate differently))
Can you cite a real world
Can you cite a real world example of this immorality then?
If by real world example you mean something that has actually happened or is actually happening, for me to cite such a real world example I’d have to find an incident of management stating explicitly that they have made a decision to engage in a particular given act or policy of philanthropy that they know will not be in the financial interests of their shareholders (under any time horizon) and I’d have to know that they were saying that sincerely (as opposed to really believing that it was a good P.R. investment and even more so if they CLAIM that it’s not, insisting instead that it’s a sacrifice). Or I’d have to find a case in which it is simply implausible that management could possibly believe otherwise. I don’t want to spend time trying to find examples that meet either of those standards, and it isn’t necessary for us to have this discussion.
If a pharmaceutical company that creates AIDS drugs decides to give a bunch away in Africa, this is going to lower the dividend. Let's agree they are just doing it because they think that by making large amounts of money off of the existance of a disease carries the responsibility to help those who couldn't afford treatment. The corporate officers believe this to be a Corporate responsibility as well as a personal one.
The fact that the pharmaceutical company is making money by helping people who have a disease (a disease the company obviously did not create or spread) in no way creates any moral obligation to be philanthropic in any way. Why would it? That company (the managers acting on behalf of the shareholders) invested resources, at risk, to produce products that would meet a need and to generate a financial return on investment (ROI) by doing so. They succeeded, helped a lot of people, and gained financially through this process. Please explain to me why having done so creates a moral obligation to then make a financial sacrifice? In fact, explain to me why the moral obligation wouldn’t be in the other direction – that anyone who benefited from their drugs should now pay money to the company, even if the drugs have already been paid for, since these people have “profited” from those drugs – i.e., they have better health and/or quality of life than they would have had otherwise, and presumably those benefits have been worth more than the price of the drugs, which is why the transaction took place (let’s assume for simplicity that the payor is the consumer, which isn’t actually the case in healthcare, but is for most transactions). Transactions typically only occur because, from the purchaser’s perspective, the goods/services exceed the value of the money and from the seller’s perspective, the opposite, so “profit” exists on both sides. So neither side is being altruistic, neither is doing a favor, and therefore neither owes a favor.
Now, having said the above, if this pharmaceutical company has some unique ability to save these lives and there is a dichotomous choice of either their taking this action or these people dying, then we may be entering into a gray area or perhaps moving toward moral obligation. An example is Walmart rushing bottled water to Katrina victims. Let’s assume (and it may be completely true or not) that Walmart management believed that doing would make the difference between people dying or not, and that if Walmart didn’t do it, those people would die, because no one else was capable of getting the water to the people on time, then those managers were probably under a moral obligation to do so even if it were (hypothetically) financially detrimental to the shareholders and even if they had no reason to believe the shareholders would want to make that sacrifice. But these cases are the exceptions.
If they inform the stock holders of the plan, and thus allow them to either vote them out or sell their stock I don't see the immorallity here. Yes, the other option would be for the CEO and those stock holders who feel that way to take their personal earnings and donate them, but they aren't taking any choice away from the stock holders. Those stock holders don't have some sort. (I have Kantist leanings, as long as their was neither deception nor force used, I don't see the moral crime)
The shareholders are already shareholders. Telling them now they can sell (with possibly adverse financial consequences vs. what they reasonably expected prior to this change of policy) is not the same as their knowing prior to investing. As for an “inherent right to a pharmaceutical company that doesn't include philanthropy”, no, they don’t have such a right, but please read my arguments on that matter in my previous comment (the very long one), including my analogy in my prior comment regarding the corrupt politicians, but also the rest of the comment beginning with the paragraph that starts “Now as for as a known corporate policy” and cotinuing in subsequent paragraphs. (I know it’s a long comment, but I’ve responded there to the point you’re raising again here, so if you haven’t read it, please do, and respond to those arguments if you wish).
As for the corporate impact on laws, I am being more thorough here. What are appropriate pollution laws? Fair labor laws etc? We as a society have the power and right to set those laws in return for defining and protecting the concept of property (IMO). Is it not equally immoral for a corporation to use its financial aggregation to lobby for laws that many (or even some) of its co-owners may not agree with as it is for them to use that same aggregation in support of social outcomes? Is it possible for them to engage in ANY type of political influence as a Corporation (rather than individuals) without a similar degree of corruption taking place? If so, please provide an example.
Perhaps the best way to respond to that comment is to back up a step and go back to my hot dog stand example. You’re the owner, Joe runs it for you. You want the town to permit hot dog stands in the park. You meet with some local politicians and try to convince them to do so. Or you ask Joe to go meet with the politicians with that objective. (1) Do you have any objection to either so far? Ok, now let’s suppose you have five partners and a few hot dog stands. Five of the six partners (you included) want to lobby for the policy change to allow hot dog stands in the park, and one does not because he thinks hot dog stands in the park detract from its beauty and its benefit to the community. (2) Do you think it’s immoral for the partners to vote and, based on the 5 out of 6 vote, proceed with those meetings with the politicians? (3) If one of the partners “bundles” campaign contributions of $100 each from the other 4 who support the objective of the lobbying effort and sends these contributions to the campaigns of several politicians who favor this new hot dog law to increase the chances that these politicians will win – just as all the other individual campaign contributors are doing, whether via a bundler, at the urging of some advocacy group, or none of the above – do you see that as immoral, assuming no quid pro quo in involved?
(As and aside, good conversation, even if we somewhat disagree (or maybe we don't, we just prioritize and communicate differently))
Agreed.
Didn't quite agree with the analogy
I don't think the corruption analogy in the previous comment quite applies. Unless the corruption-lite policy of the candidate is publicized, they are still lying. Even if the corruption policy IS part of the country in question (i.e. The law says that politicians can demand bribes and the assumption is that if the bribes were really big, someone would find out and then you can vote them out next time) then you are still lacking the ability to quit and create your own country.
For the hot-dog analogy and corporate behaviors in general.
It all comes down to the partnership agreement. If it states that the majority may expend such resources as long as they have a good faith belief that it is in the partenership's best financial interests THEN it would be OK to spend such lobbying but not philanthropy.
That's actually where I'd hang my hat if I were you. If there is no corporate mission statement or some such and there were a "Good faith belief that expenditures were in the best interests of the corporation" clause (and I'd even agree that a corporation has an implicit such agreement in the absence an over-riding mission statement to the contrary) then I'd agree that it would be deceptive and fraudulent to expend money on corporate philanthropy (though I would not extend this to an implicity DUTY to expend money on socially destructive activities that were to the corporation's advantage)
But corporations do occasionally rewrite their mission statement and some owners may choose to do so to the financial detriment of the share holders (The pharmaceutical company in my example for instance). Typically that type of change requires (or should require) share holder agreement.
Here are several assertions
Here are several assertions I'm making. This is mostly a recap, but perhaps the format will be conducive to better sorting out where we agree and where not, and to testing the validity of our rationales. (And perhaps not).
Please let me know with which of the following you agree and with which not.
1) A business has no inherent obligation to engage in philanthropy. In general, a business exchanges good and/or services for the money of customers, both sides benefit from the transaction, neither is doing the other a favor and neither owes the other a favor.
2) If CSR advocates argue otherwise (contrary to #1), they are wrong. If, through their advocacy (e.g., criticizing companies that are not sufficiently philanthropic in their view), they shape public perception such that it then BECOMES in the financial interest of businesses to be philanthropic to a greater extent, then they have imposed an unfair, unjustified burden on the shareholders of businesses, essentially extorting them, as in my hot dog stand example: consumer buys hot dog and enjoys it, then insists that the hot dog stand owner give to some charity or else the consumer will generate bad publicity that will hurt that hot dog stand's sales and profits.
3) Unless managers have some legitimate reason to believe otherwise, their default assumption should be that shareholders want them to manage the business so as to maximize shareholder wealth, within the constraints of law and ethics (ethics as I've described, such as not misleading customers, even if legal, and not dumping tons of toxins in a river, even if legal, etc.).
4) Given # 3, managers engaging in philanthropy that is detrimental to the financial interests of the shareholders -- again, without a good reason to believe that at least a majority of shareholders want to make this sacrifice -- amounts to being charitable with someone else's money, which is a form of theft, however well-intentioned and whatever the benefits to recipients (sort of like Robin Hood, although the assumption that the redistribution is from rich to poor is not always valid, as I explained in my diary). Therefore, if CSR advocates urge managers to engage in philanthropy that the managers do not think serves the financial interests of the shareholders and without a reason for the managers to believe that the shareholders want to make such a sacrifice, then CSR advocates are urging that the managers steal from the owners and give away their money.
5) In extreme cases, such theft is morally justified, but in general it is not.
6) Given # 2, it is quite possible that many/most large businesses engage in more philanthropy than most shareholders would have liked if CSR advocates had not imposed that unfair burden, but which businesses must now engage in because the financial calculus has changed as a result of the perceptions created/cultivated by CSR advocates. And given that, the fact that a given company has a mission statement that includes a substantial level of philanthropy does not mean that the shareholders are being treated unfairly, even if such philanthropy is not, under the new calculus, in their financial interest. Another substantial possibility is that the MANAGERS of most large businesses engage in philanthropy to an extent that is detrimental to the financial interests of the shareholders (without reason to believe they want to make that sacrifice) as a result of the unfair burden imposed on them by CSR advocates and the PERSONAL reward/punishment that results for these managers. So there may be few investment choices for investors wishinig to avoid such theft by managers for the latters' personal gain at shareholder expense (that was the point of my analogy of the country in which all the politicians are corrupt and citizens have no choice but to pick the best/least bad among them).
Sorry to jump in the middle here
but your point #2 doesn't track for me.
Not to be deliberately naive here, but how is this particular expression of market preference ("More charity!") essentially extortion? Are other attempts to sway companies towards particular policies ("Buy American! No animal testing! Boycott sweatshop goods!") also essentially extortion? Why isn't this just consumers expressing a desire for a product/service that the company then finds it profitable to meet?
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Creating -- or threatening
Creating -- or threatening to create or maintain -- public perception that a business is a "bad corporate citizen" if it does not engage in some sufficient leve of philanthropy is a form of extortion. See my hot dog stand example. I buy the hot dog from you and eat it, and it's exactly what you said it would be (no deception involved). We've had a mutually beneficial exchange. Neither of us has done the other any favors, and neither owes the other (or anyone else) any favors as a result of having conducted that transaction. Yet I turn to you and say "Now that you've profited from that hot dog sale, you have a moral obligation to give an amount I deem adequate to charity, and if you don't I'll tell everyone in town that you are a bad member of the community and try to get them to stop buying from you."
Sounds like extortion to me. Not to you?
Why?
I fully agree that there is no obligation after the transaction is complete, but most pressure (boycotts, campaigns, etc) is couched in terms of future purchases. If I'm a hotdog vendor and enough customers let me know that they will buy from me over the competition if I sponsor the little league team (or whatever) then I'm faced with a simple cost/benefit calculation.
(On more point on your example: the customer may be legally liable for spreading falsehoods about the business.)
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
On the legal matter, not
On the legal matter, not applicable. I'm not saying lies would be made up, only that I'd go around saying that your hot dog business was a bad presence in the community and you are immoral because you did not give enough to charity through your business (as opposed to giving as an individual after transfering the profits from your hot dog business bank account into your personal account, which for some reason I would deem immoral, whereas if you wrote the check from your business checking account I'd be full of praise -- does that make any sense at all?).
As for the future, yes of course, the pressure relates to the future (the past can't be changed), but my point was that the assertion of CSR advocates is that a moral obligation arises as a result of conducting business. That was my point.
And let's make an important distinction. You may prefer to do business with a hot dog vendor who gives 10% of all revenues to some local charity. But that is NOT the same as asserting that the hot dog vendor has some special moral obligation to give to charity, and to do so via the business, simply because he has sold hot dogs and wants to continue selling hot dogs. And it's certainly not the same as saying that the employee hired by the owner to run the hot dog stand should take the liberty of doing so with the owner's money if the employee does not think it is in the owner's financial interest and if he has no reason to believe the owner wishes to make that sacrifice. Neither is the case. Agree?
This is what I get for jumping in the middle
You may prefer to do business with a hot dog vendor who gives 10% of all revenues to some local charity. But that is NOT the same as asserting that the hot dog vendor has some special moral obligation to give to charity
Asserting via what mechanism? If you mean, customers making their desires clear to a business, it actually sounds exactly the same to me. My "assertion" doesn't carry any particular weight, it's just me expressing a preference as a consumer. If you mean, some sort of regulation that says you as a business have to donate 10% or else you can't operate, then sure that's extortion by the government. Sorta like taxes =P
Edit: maybe you're talking about the intent of the customer and I'm focused on the effect on the business?
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
It seems to me that CSR
It seems to me that CSR advocates are making that assertion. A company is "socially responsible" or is not meaning it is socially "irresponsible"), depending on if it meets some standard for sacrificing of at least short-term profit (and even long-term, if necessary to meet that standard) for philanthropy or other societal benefits beyond serving customers well and complying with laws and ethics as I've described them. Why? How does conducting business produce that moral obligation? And if it doesn't, and there is no moral obligation, then a company that does not meet that standard, but meets the others I listed, is not "socially irresponsible".
As for the business donating 10% of revenues to charity, if you patronize that business more than you would if they did not have that policy, then in effect, to some substantial extent YOU are giving to charity (because you forewent the superior material value offered by the other seller from whom you would otherwise have patronized).
And what will you have accomplished if you get all the hot dog vendors in town to give 10% of revenues to charity, or for that matter all the food vendors, supermarkets, etc.? You will have either caused prices to go up to make up the lost margin, or caused lower profits and, in turn, less income for the hot dog stand owners, leaving them with less to use for charity as they see fit individually -- and if some of those hot dog businesses are partnerships, then pressuring the owners to give through the business has caused them to give however it can be decided upon through that organizational framework rather than each individual owner being able to decide what type(s) of charity he wishes to give to, how much to each, and how much in total. Why is this noble? Yes, there can be some organizational efficiencies of giving charity through a large organization, but that's not really the rationale behind CSR advocacy. The rationale really derives from the equation of "large corporations" with super rich folks, and is really just a way to force more supposed redistribution of wealth with the cloak of some other moral rationale. That's why I use the hot dog stand example.
Gotcha
So basically you think it's illogical that people would try to impose charitable giving on businesses that aren't designed to handle that function. Sort of like how it would be illogical to pressue a school to donate to charity because the principal is rich.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
Well, actually, as I've
Well, actually, as I've noted, there CAN be organizational efficiencies in a large organization, such as a large business, giving to charity (in other words, other things equal, more societal benefit per dollar or per hour spent investigating and donating to charities, and per dollar collected by the charity due to efficiencies on their end). I'm pretty sure most Fortune 100 companies have staff whose whole job (or a big part of it) is managing philanthropy, so businesses certainly can be "designed to handle that function", at least more efficiently than individuals, even if charity ain't their main business nor their raison d'etre.
As for the school principal being rich, I don't see the analogy.
I just don't see why conducting business creates any special obligation. I sell you a hot dog. You get a hot dog that was worth more to you than the money (that's why you made the exchange), so you benefited. I received your money, which was worth more to me than the hot dog (that's why I made the exchange). We both benefited. Why would anyone think I have some moral obligation to give to charity as a result of engaging in such a transaction? You "profited" too -- you exchanged money for a hot dog that was worth more to you. Should someone start saying that, because you "profited" from that hot dog, you now have a greater moral obligation to give to charity as a result?
There was no real analogy
I was just suggesting another situation, off the cuff, where it wouldn't make sense to ask an organization to donate. You mentioned that you felt part of the motivation behind CSR was to redistribute wealth because businesses were viewed as run by a bunch of rich people, so I made the principal rich... don't read too much into it.
Sure, I get that companies can and do donate, and that they can be efficient at charity. I oversimplified.
I also agree that there are no obligations, but honestly I still feel this is sort of a weird way to approach the issue. That some consumers may have illogical or "unfair" reasons for their preferences doesn't really matter to the business, which simply has to respond to the market. But I guess that's sort of a side point.
Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson
ok. FYI, the (somewhat
ok.
FYI, the (somewhat erroneous) equation I was talking about was of shareholders of big corporations with rich folks, not the equation of CEOs (equivalent to a school principal) with rich folks (which would at least not be erroneous, since most CEOs of large corporations are rich, although it would be largely irrelevant, since it's the shareholders money that's involved).
Is shareholders money
involved in lobbying the govt.
Might some shareholders resent millions going to certain individuals to sway the govt to change laws, that would seem to go against free market principles.
How is spending money on lobbying to tweak the system a fair deal for shareholders.
I'm only half stupid
Hey! Wait a second! How can it be immoral?
I thought you earlier asserted that the customer (and the philanthropic CEO) had no free will! Ergo, there is no morality. ;-)
If someone asked me why someone wasn't a good member of the community I'd ask how. And if they gave an honest answer as you described above I'd probably disregard. Their statement of opinion, sans supporting facts, doesn't make it so. And holding an opinion, and stating that opinion, can't be immoral IMO.
You are misstating my
You are misstating my position, but I assume it's inadvertent. What I have referred to (repeatedly) as "immoral" is not CSR advocates doing what they do, but rather managers using owner's money to be philanthropic in ways that are detrimental to the owner's financial interests, unless they have good reason to believe that at least a majority of owners wish to make that financial sacrifice. That is generally immoral because it is theft, and stealing is generally immoral (with exceptions in some exceptional circumstances).
Now, having said that, I have said that what CSR advocates' contentioin that a business has an inherent moral obligation to be philanthropic is unfair, and if being unfair is immoral, then I'll be glad to add that to the list of what I will explicitly call immoral. And I've said that what they urge managers to do with the owners' money is essentially urging them to steal, with is also generally immoral, so I can add two counts of immorality. But I had not applied the term "immoral" to the efforts of CSR advocates until now. And by the way, if you owned that hot dog stand, say along with a few partners, and I went around telling everyone in town that you were bad for the community because your business doesn't write checks to charities from the business bank account (even if you and the other owners may do so from your individual personal bank accounts using your distributions of the profits of the business), and urged everyone to stop buying from you because of that, you'd probably say "Is this guy an a**hole, really stupid, or both?! Why does he think just because we sell hot dogs that we have a moral obligation to give to charity through the business as opposed to giving as individuals, and why does he even think that's better?"
Am I right that you'd have that reaction?
Actually I'm being tongue in cheek
Just using your 'No such thing as free will' comments for fun (like, How could my misstatement be inadvertant as the concept has no meaning without free will :-)
(disclosure, the company I work for does matching contributions (to a certain limit) with employees for several charities that the employees propose every year and I don't think they are being immoral to the share holders for doing so. )
I actually wouldn't have that reaction to the customer in question. I'd be a bit confused by their opinion but would probably shrug and go about my business.
ok, I knew the "free will"
ok, I knew the "free will" part was kidding around, but I thought you were saying that I was calling it immoral for CSR advocates to say what they say and advocate what they advocate, which I wasn't, but then did (if that's followable).
Anyway, my reaction to such a person would be to grab the sumbitch and shove a frozen hot dog where the sun don't shine. That's CSR to me: "Correctional Shoving Routine".
Two typo corrections: In #6
Two typo corrections:
In #6 above, clause should read "does not mean that the shareholders are NOT being treated unfairly"
Also in #6, it should read "even if such philanthropy IS, under the new calculus..."
I believe we disagree on assertion #2 and possibly #3
I'd say that the customer's do not surrender any right to their money simply by being in the market to purchase.
If one would rather purchase from businesses that are Made In The USA, only buy eggs that are from "Cage Free" chickens, milk that is from free range cows (All variants of SCR in my book) etc I should have that right. A preference to buy from CostCo rather than from Walmart because they provide a living wage or from a company that provides health care to employees in a same-sex relationship (even if they could cut costs as they aren't a protected class and could still keep the same level of employee because nobody else provides the benefit so they don't look bad)
Even pure philanthropy "I buy from X because they support the local community by sponsoring sports teams" is perfectly acceptable in my book.
The only time I have an issue is if one demands the company give to their personal hobby horse or they will start up an astroturf campaign or tell all their followers that they shouldn't buy there with dishonest rhetoric.
#3 might be the source of the disagreement. Most of my support of SCR is based on what I agree is and isn't ethical for a company and/or human beings in general. If we are going to disregard all business-centric activities, such as production/pollution/animal treatment/wages/equal opportunity for unprotected classes etc and we are only talking about philanthropy completely unrelated to the business (Microsoft donates corporate money to Doctors without Borders as a hypothetical example) then we may be much closer.
Just a quick reply for now.
Just a quick reply for now. Looking at my hot dog stand example, if you have sold me a hot dog, (1) has that transaction created some moral obligation on your part to give part of your profit to charity? I'm not asking if you as a person, just like any person, has an obligation to give to charity, just if an obligation arises as a result of selling your hot dogs.
In other words, do you agree with my assertion #1 in my prior comment (the 1 - 6 comment)?
(2) If so, then wouldn't you have to agree that, if I, as a CSR advocate, argue the opposite of #1 -- that a moral obligation to be philanthropic DOES arise from your selling hot dogs -- then I am wrong?
(3) And if so, then isn't unfair for me to pressure you meet some standard I've set for your philanthropy (in order not to be trash you in the community and drive customers away from you), since it imposes an unjustified burden on you and constitutes a threat to harm you even though you have done nothing immoral (to the contrary, you've given me a hot dog that was worth more to me than the money I paid for it, which is why I engaged in the transaction, so you've already benefited me, even if that was not your motivation)?
Disagreeing on morality is not immoral
I agree that selling high quality hot dogs does not carry a moral obligation to give to charity.
However, if I did believe that it did (like many churches that believe that making ANY profit carries a moral obligation to give to the church) it would not be immoral for me to say that it did.
For (3) I don't believe statements of opinion, when honstly and clearfully stated, can be considered 'trashing' a business. And morality is relative. If everyone gave to charity and believed that everyond else should to, but chose to support/enforce that with business rather than via taxes, I don't see a moral problem with that.
See my reply to you above
See my reply to you above http://swordscrossed.org/node/1673#comment-72982
CSR
No. Their default assumption had better be that they need to provide value to their community or they will not have a business for very long. Period.
We have no reason to maintain parasites upon society. businesses will learn to be contributing members of society or they will be put down. They exist at our pleasure, not vice versa.
Funny how many things are theft. Taxes are theft, property is theft. Whatever. The businesses only exist because we collectively permit it (often with literal permits). That means they keep us collectively happy or they cease to exist. We have no reason on earth to allow businesses obsessed with taking all they can to remain.
That's a ridiculously romanticized version of what businesses actually do. If you want a better model go observe the local heroin dealer.
Ethics require businesses give back for all they take. Otherwise they are nothing but parasites.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Do you really think that?
Depending on how you define "contributing", I would argue that profit comes before society. That being so it doesn't matter what society deems ethical or moral, if it makes a profit it will be done (and vice versa in the "business world"). Nice herorin analogy btw
"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me". Nathaniel Lee