Abortion: Rational Discussion/Debate

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My own view, which I think

is the majority opinion in the country, is that abortion should be allowed, but discouraged. This does not address the philosophical/biological/ethical issues you raise. By discouraged I mean that late term abortions would not be allowed (except for saving the life of the mother), adoption possibilities can be pointed out to the pregnant woman, and if the woman is a minor that her parents would be notified of the upcoming abortion.

BTW if Roe v. Wade is ever overturned, it would mean that the legality of abortion would be sent back to the states. At which point most of the states in the country (and certainly many of the most populous ones) would make abortion legal. So you might have a few states where it is illegal (like Lousiana) and women would have to go out of the state to have an abortion.

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name the enemy, win the war

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I think it's important to

I think it's important to think through those underlying philisophical/biological issues. For each of your positions, what are the premises and principles guiding them? I've found that a heck of a lot of people hold positions on this issue that are based on beliefs/principles that are internally inconsistent, which is to say, illogical. Only by thinking it through can those inconsistencies be identified, and a more logical set of positions reached. I'd be interested in any such exploration you do of your posiitons.

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It is also a basic women's rights issue

A woman should have control over her own body. Given modern sensibilities, the woman who carries the foetus gets the benefit of the doubt at the start of her pregnancy. If by, say, the third trimester she hasn't decided to abort, then I can see the state stepping in and saying the foetus must then be carried to term. I realize this way of discussing the issue is unsatisfactory to the issues you raise. When I hear somone say that a woman who is made pregnant by rape should be forced to carry the foetus to term, I can't believe what I am hearing.

Are you saying that the value of human life (or potential human life) should overide all other societal values?

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name the enemy, win the war

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What I'm saying, to state it

What I'm saying, to state it most broadly, is that, while I can't insist that anyone agree with me, I can insist that he/she agree with HIMSELF/HERSELF. In other words, I just want people to be logical, to lay out a set of assertions that are not contradictory, based on his/her OWN premises.

If one believes that all (innocent) persons have a right to life, but that abortion should be legal in some circumstances, they MUST (to be logical) assert either that it should be legal to kill a person in those circumstances or that the fetus in question is not a person. That's not opinion, just logic (i.e., internal consistency).

So I would ask you, do you consider a fetus ten minutes before delivery a person, just as a newborn baby is a person? And if so, then would you favor letting a woman legally kill her newborn baby if the baby resulted from a rape?

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4 words...

....Survival of the fittest.

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Contradiction

What you have discovered is the ability of people to hold mutually contradictory ideas simultaneously.

For various (unexplained) reasons this occurs more frequently in those who are considered "conservative" or are religious fundamentalists.

A typical example when discussing what makes a happy marriage people are asked how true these statements are:
"birds of a feather flock together" - agree
"opposites attract" - agree

This type of person fails to see the contradiction. The underlying thing is that the stronger one believes in an ideology the less they notice contradictions. Faith and logic cannot coexist.

You can be exasperated by this characteristic, but you won't change these people or win your arguments with them.

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--- Policies not Politics favicon

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Holding mutually

Holding mutually contradictory beliefs is illogical (by definition) and should not be something with which anyone should feel comfortable (if they wish to be a thoughtful person and a good citizen / member of society). Yet many on the right, left, and "other" apparently do so, usually due to not thinking through their premises and making correct deductions (and if you think only people on the right are guilty, you apparently do not see it on your own "side" -- e.g., lack of logic in comments on Thoma's blog). If one says that "it should NOT be legal to kill a person" AND that "SOME fetuses are persons" AND that it should be legal to kill ANY fetus" (or that whether or not the fetus is a person is irrelevant), then that person is contradicting himself -- i.e., is being illogical.

As for my "exasperation", I'm an equal opportunity exasperatee. Your buddies at Thoma's blog (and, I'd have to say, probably you, although I'd have to check your comments there to be sure) are guilty of either illogical thinking or at least of a lack of willingness to think through a question logically. Logic is not a matter of opinion or ideology any more than math is, and I correct it where I see it, whether the guilty party shares my policy preference on some issue or not. I wish Thoma would do the same with his visitors, but apparently (and unfortunately, particularly given that he is an educator) his values and priorities are different with regard to education vs. pursuit of a policy agenda.

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ideology

If you haven't seen it before psychologist Robert Altemeyer has studied this type of personality. He has a free online book which summarizes his 40+ years of research on the topic.

It's available here:
The Authoritarians favicon

He dubs this type of mindset "right wing authoritarians", but now concedes this was a mistake, there are left wing authoritarians as well. This is what you are complaining about.

However during the period that he was studying he couldn't find enough to collect meaningful data about. This may be changing again. The heated debates on dailykos over which candidate is the "best" one start to sound like the types of discussions that occurred at the beginning of the 20th Century and after the Russian revolution.

Leaving aside the labels the distinction is between those open to new ideas and those not. The close minded are more likely to have inconsistent beliefs, probably in part because they refuse to listen to counter arguments.

Mark Thoma only gets into the discussion when one is rude or intolerant or an obvious troll. He usually just removes the comments without public notice. He's gotten upset with me on occasion when I stubbornly refuse to accept economic modeling as a scientific discipline.

Aside from that he lets people argue as much as they wish without interfering. I guess he thinks each side can take care of itself. What you seem to want is for him to censor remarks on the basis of criteria to your liking. That's not what an open debate is about. Even the mistaken get a chance to state their views.

I think that is what this site is attempting as well, but I find the personal attacks counterproductive.

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--- Policies not Politics favicon

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rdf,

well, I read the 13 page intro. I'll work my way through the rest at a later date. It does seem somewhat interesting but I do fear as I begin that our good doctor is concentrating more on one type of authoritarianism. There is hope in the fact that he acknowledges a broader view of authoritarianism.

A final point on this is that I see left-wing authoritarian as being more subtle and less obvious as it builds up...but no less pervasive when it takes hold.

As for Thoma, I have my quibbles with him as you may have read elsewhere. I agree that economic modeling is lacking as a pure science but that doesn't negate their in limited applications.

Personally, I prefer economics from a more philosophical and axiomatic perspective. It's telling that Johns Hopkins PhD in economics is actually a PhD in philosophy. They explain this all on the website to masters in econ grads looking to a PhD.

Mises, no fan of excessive math and modeling in economics, once said pejoratively that mathematical economics and econometrics is "mental gymnastics" and that it's no substitute for real economic thought. He said it can not be compared to physics because the things studied in physics do not think and modeling makes too light of this.

But his blog can be very, very shrill. What I don't like is his lack of will to interject when the nonsense gets really thick.

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[Sound of me rubbing my eyes

[Sound of me rubbing my eyes vigorously, shaking my head, and opening my mouth gaping wide (if the latter makes a sound)]

rdf,

You must -- repeat, must -- repeat again, MUST be kidding.

Mark Thoma only gets into the discussion when one is rude or intolerant or an obvious troll...Aside from that he lets people argue as much as they wish without interfering. I guess he thinks each side can take care of itself. What you seem to want is for him to censor remarks on the basis of criteria to your liking. That's not what an open debate is about. Even the mistaken get a chance to state their views.

Wrong on...how many counts?? First, not only can I not figure out how any sensible person could possibly think that I was saying or implying that Thoma should censor remarks [shaking my head more in disbelief as I type], my main complaint about him is the exact OPPOSITE. In a very partisan, double-standard fashion, he has deleted comments I've posted, telling me (after I emailed him to inquire) that I needed to "tone it down" (my goodness, what an obvious, blatant double standard!) and that I was "badgering" people who weren't answering my questions (those people, by the way, were continuing to reply with rhetoric and ridicule, and I was merely asking them to respond to my questions/arguments instead).

Second, what exactly are you calling a "troll". Often that term is used for someone who is presenting disingenuous points/arguments to pursue some hidden political agenda that conflicts with the agenda of the group (that particular blog community). Is that your definition?

Third, believe me, I am the LAST guy who needs a lecture on what open debate is about. Infringements upon it, whether by force, by intimidation, or simply due to people unwilling to engage in it and to do so thoughtfully, rationally, and in a truly responsive manner is something I detest and often seek to change.

I think that is what this site is attempting as well, but I find the personal attacks counterproductive.

That's a fine statement, but it's kind of funny, coming from you. Did you forget what you wrote about me on this very thread, albeit in a response to my insulting tone toward missliberties (which, given her comments, is was at least somewhat understandable) ??

For your information Mr. Rational is just as argumentative and unresponsive to criticism elsewhere. Exasperation with his intransigence seems to be a common characteristic. Save your breath.

I'm perfectly willing to let bygones be bygones...wait, one more shot first:

Your comment reminds me of the poem:
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
I’m a schizophrenic,
And so am I.

ok, not I’m willing to put the garbage behind us. Easy for me to say, I realize, if I get the last word. Go ahead and reply, and maybe I’ll be able to resist responding (maybe – no guarantee, and depends largely on whether you say anything that begs for correction).

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oops, unfortunate typo: "not

oops, unfortunate typo:

"not I’m willing to put the garbage behind us"

should be:

"now I'm willing to put the garbage behind us"

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Brief interjection:

Logic is not a matter of opinion or ideology any more than math is

You're correct, but for the wrong reason: both logic and math are a matter of opinion and ideology. Both are human constructions that can easily have existed otherwise (we started discovering other maths a century ago) or not at all. Holding illogical beliefs is a negative quality only if you buy into the idea that logic is of value. Fortunately for your argument, most of us do, but it doesn't have to be that way: it's just one way to approach the world, and it is most certainly a matter of opinion and ideology.

For one of the most powerful proponents of a non-logical approach to the world, see Dostoevsky. He wrote reams debunking (according to his terms) this:

Holding mutually contradictory beliefs is illogical (by definition) and should not be something with which anyone should feel comfortable (if they wish to be a thoughtful person and a good citizen / member of society).

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Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Suppose someone says: I

Suppose someone says:
I believe that it should be ILLEGAL to kill any innocent person.
I believe a late-term fetus is a person.
I believe it should be LEGAL to kill a fetus.

The above is illogical -- internal inconsistency, self-contradiction. Is that the kind of thinking (to use the term loosely) that Dostoevsky is saying is or might be a good thing? Is that what YOU are saying?

I find it hard to find any value in illogical thinking, at least not any inherent value. Even if somehow there were some value to it, it's quite evident that in practical terms, the harms far outweigh the benefits.

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CORRECTION: Last line in

CORRECTION: Last line in that example should read:
"I believe it should be LEGAL to kill a late-term fetus."

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At the risk of going way off topic,

there's no such thing as a perfect system of logic: it'll either be inconsistent or incomplete (see Godel, who proved it about math). But more to the point: Dostoevsky was one of the first to argue that the human being is not reconcilable to logical systems: whether that's a product of biology or 'spirit' or whatever, we cannot understand our behavior or even our sense of wrong and right through a formal system.

There's some history here: he was reacting less against logic than against logical positivism, which had turned into a utopian project of saving the human race through science. Not only did it fail miserably, but Dostoevsky predicted it would - if successful - create a system of totalitarian horror worse than anything they imagined (making him a pseudo-prophet of the Soviet system). He based his critique on what he considered the fundamental illogical behavior of human beings, and though we usually assign 'illogical' a negative value (we are raised in systems of logic), he saw it in the most necessary building-block of human freedom.

He then went on to write books challenging people to think illogically, and showing the dangers that a too-strict faith in logic can lead us to. Whether you buy them or not, his novels are still considered among the greatest in history: he touched a nerve with people trying to understand themselves and their behavior.

If you want to keep this talk within logical parameters, check out dialetheism favicon. I'm not a philosopher, so you'll have to be patient with me on specifics.

Now, to go back to your initial challenge: I can't address it that way because you're already discussing it as a logical proposition. If I were rejecting logic, I wouldn't even outline starting assumptions: I'd address the situation I see before me and take what measures I think are most appropriate for that given situation. Whether that approach to life is less valid is a fine question, but I at least wanted to show you that even logic is a matter of opinion and ideology.

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Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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I guess I'd have to check

I guess I'd have to check how Dostoevsky was defining "logic" and "illogic" to know if he was really disagreeing with me, or if perhaps he was applying some loose/imprecise definition of "logic".

I read some of the info at the "dialetheism" link and scanned the rest, and, at risk of saying something that sounds very closed-minded (and I guess, is), it seems like stuff that would only make sense to me if I smoked an ounce of weed (not that I do that...not that there's anything wrong with that, as Seinfeld would say). Lacking said weed, I fear that if I dug much further into this my head would pop.

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If you're interested

I found (while looking for something else) an article that outlines the history of how logic came to be undermined when it was proven inconsistent as a system. It's tied pretty closely to the same revelation in mathematics, which occurred in the early part of the 20th century. Really interesting stuff here: "Logic's Tower of Babel favicon" Highly recommended reading.

Now, there's a fair argument that this undermining of the system doesn't necessarily mean that we should reject it outright. There's a lot to be said for its practical application, provided we 1. recognize it as an imperfect system and 2. take that into account when making decisions based on it. That's really all I'm asking: to acknowledge that logic isn't beyond opinion and ideology, it's a product of them.

Understanding why logic is a necessarily imperfect system doesn't require weed (as the dialetheism article did) - it's simply an inarguable fact. But it still may be the best option of alternatives, none of which are perfect. That's why I meant this only to be a minor side-point rather than a long digression. :)

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Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Thanks for the recommended

Thanks for the recommended reading. I scanned it a bit, and since it's not particualrly concise (in fact, at first glance at least, it seems almost deliberately inconcise, at least if the objective is to make an argument that logic is imperfect or is a matter of opinion), let me ask again:

Suppose someone says:
I believe that it SHOULD NOT be legal to kill any innocent person.
I believe a late-term fetus is an innocent person.
I believe it SHOULD be legal to kill a late-term fetus.

The above is illogical -- internal inconsistent, self-contradictory. Is that the kind of thinking that you or anyone is contending (1) might be correct or (2) might be beneficial in some way?

I gotta tell ya, I find it hard to imagine that anything anyone's written could convince me that such illogic could somehow be anything other than a manifestation of confusion, lack of thorough, clear thinking, and/or some other manner of sub-optimal thinking. I'll take another look at that reading you suggested, but I'll try to home in on the heart of the argument if I can find it and see if I can get whatever point is being made without reading through what seems to be a somewhat tedious and inefficient piece of literature (just one man's opinion; I do appreciate the link, though).

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Just to put my syllogism a

Just to put my syllogism a bit differently, if someone says:
A = B, and B = C, but A does NOT equal C, are you saying that that conclusion might be correct or might be useful or beneficial?

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Oh, and if you ARE saying

Oh, and if you ARE saying that, and want me to really ponder it and try to see some sense in it, you're gonna have to get that weed to me, because it's been a couple of decades since I've known where to get some ;)

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Hmmm... not sure what you read generally,

but I thought that chapter was a model of clarity and conciseness. One or two short digressions aside, you won't find a better expression of such a complicated but key discovery in logic and mathematics. I'll be sure not to send any Derrida your way! ;)

But like I said: the thing I wanted you to take away from this discussion is simply that logic is a matter of choosing a particular system based on its perceived merits: it is not a perfect system that exists outside of opinion or ideology, but is in fact created by opinion and ideology.

To address your syllogism specifically (A=B, B=C, A does not = C), I'd point out that 'equals' (=) is a mathematical operator, not a real-world function. Even something so simple as saying "1 apple = 1 apple" is problematic when we consider that each apple is different: as a form of intellectual shorthand, we take for granted the differences and define categories of similarity that allow us to carry out the 'equals' operation.

And we pretty much have to, because if we tried to direct our intellect towards treating each thing as separate, we'd never make it out the door in the morning. The intellectual shorthand is one of the ways we distill the complexity of the universe into something digestible. But you have to remember that it's shorthand, not reality. We choose the shorthand because of its practical merits, but that doesn't free us of the flaws of the system.

(I'm not addressing the specific abortion example, because that's not why I started this tangent: this is about logic and ideology. If we want to talk abortion, I have my own line of reasoning down below favicon, which isn't really related to this discussion.)

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Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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To address your syllogism

To address your syllogism specifically (A=B, B=C, A does not = C), I'd point out that 'equals' (=) is a mathematical operator, not a real-world function. Even something so simple as saying "1 apple = 1 apple" is problematic when we consider that each apple is different: as a form of intellectual shorthand, we take for granted the differences and define categories of similarity that allow us to carry out the 'equals' operation.

So it sounds like the assertion that logic is inherently imperfect is based on the premise that we can never really be sure that our premises are valid. Is that it? If so, then that seems to me to be NOT really an argument that logic is imperfect, only that it is impossible to APPLY with certainty, because we can never be certain that one apple truly equals another apple. Right?

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Two different trains of thought:

sorry, I didn't distinguish well between them in that comment. The first is that logic itself is an imperfect system in and of itself. This was proven through the work of Russell, Godel, and others: no formal system can be both consistent and complete. As a process, logic is capable of twisting itself into contradictory knots: but you also can't construct a comprehensible system without some systematic framework.

My own objection to a too-strict adherence of logic is its questionable applicability to the real world.

I'd meant to keep these two separate, sorry. I also went more into depth in our discussion below, on abortion specifically.

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Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Pico, every dime invested in your education

will rebound to the rest of society a hundredfold.

These series of comments about logic and its practical limits should be linked in the SC Top Posts section.

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don't ask me, I'm just improvising
Political Compass Score: Econ L/R -0.12 Social Lib/Auth -1.33

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yeah, but who's gonna clean

yeah, but who's gonna clean bits of my brain off the walls after my head pops from trying to grasp that level of abstraction.

Which reminds me, Hey Pico, what's the tracking number on that 10lb shipment of cannabis? I'm afraid to read that stuff without it.

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Ten pounds!

I sure hope you're gonna share :-}

Yeah, you could really lose yourself in that stuff. Russian writers. . . .

Do what I do: read the Pico-notes version ;} He does a great job of distilling the essence of the abstraction as it applies to the topic under discussion. And, I bet if you ask questions, he'll keep on answering.

We are fortunate to be surrounded by many varieties of brilliance on this site. Yourself included.

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don't ask me, I'm just improvising
Political Compass Score: Econ L/R -0.12 Social Lib/Auth -1.33

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Gee, thanks for the

Gee, thanks for the compliment, Purp. You're giving ME a purple face now (blushing). I think to relax I'm gonna need...that 10lb package of...uh, never mind.

On a serious note, I've been impressed with the intellectual caliber of commenters here* as well as the breadth of topics...man, did I get a kick out of seeing a thread on "free will"!

* But then again, I'm more accustomed to the folks at RedState, so don't get too full of yourselves :p

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Here's what I fear will

Here's what I fear will happen to my head if I get into that stuff (the writings, not the weed).

About 15 years ago I was working in marketing management and one of my product lines was adult drink mixes (bloody mary, magarita, etc.). A competitor was Bacardi -- those frozen drink mix concentrates that come in a can. I kept one in my office on my credenza. I didn't know that, if left at room temperature, the stuff ferments and pressure builds. One Monday morning I arrived in my office and found sticky, red strawberry daiquiri concentrate goo all over the walls The can had exploded. I felt lucky that I hadn't been there when it happened, and unlucky that my boss hadn't been.

Anyway, that's what I think will happen to my head and brains if I read and ponder such material.

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Appreciate it! and I'm glad B Rational

posted this diary - this is a topic I've wanted to talk about for a long time but haven't known how to initiate. No matter what I say, I always end up feeling uncomfortable - but I don't think that's avoidable. I think your comment in an earlier thread summed up a major reason why...

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Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Ten Thousand Shiny Pieces of Gratitude to Pico

I at least wanted to show you that even logic is a matter of opinion and ideology.

Thank You. Thank You. Kisses. Kisses.

I am ultra thrilled to see that Dostoevsky defends illogi' as positive value in building human freedom. If only more humans could grasp this.

As an Xmas gift to myself, perhaps I will read one of Dostoevsky's books.

While it seems logical to value logic and apply it to highly charged emotional human situations, in fact the opposite is true.

If we applied logic to extending the life of the elderly person, based on their usefulness, or burden on society, it would be logical to keep older people out of the ICU, out of hospitals, and not give them medicine past a pre-determined forumla that the aged have outlived their usefulness to society. They are a huge burden on health care costs, sucking up much needed resources from the more productive younger generation. Logic begs that wasting resources on the old is inefficient.

This is why trying to apply some very specific all-knowing magic logical formula to a personal individual singular instance in time for one woman and her relationship with her own womb is a long road to toasting your brain circuit beyond all recognition.

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It is the economy, stupid.

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Re: "If we applied logic to

Re: "If we applied logic to extending the life of the elderly person, based on their usefulness, or burden on society, it would be logical to keep older people out of the ICU, out of hospitals, and not give them medicine past a pre-determined forumla that the aged have outlived their usefulness to society. They are a huge burden on health care costs, sucking up much needed resources from the more productive younger generation. Logic begs that wasting resources on the old is inefficient."

That is NOT what logic is. Logic means not contradicting one's self in one's set of statements and drawing inferences/conclusions that follow from the premises. For example if A=B and B=C, then A=C. Or, as a different example, if all A's are B's, then any given A is a B, but a B is not necessarily an A.

By contrast, what you are talking about is a situation in which one factor in a decision points one way, but other factors pointing the other way may have greater weight (specifically, where economic interests may favor deciding one way, but values/moral factors may carry greater weight). Totally different subject.

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That's nice.

I am thanking Pico for pointing out that logic at times does not serve the cause of humanity well.

However you wish to characterize my statements is up to you.

I doubt if anything I say will fit into the sharp edged boxes you desire, since you seem to believe that venturing outside of those boxes is worthy of scornful disdain.

As a grown fetus, I reserve my right.

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It is the economy, stupid.

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I don't think my comment

I don't think my comment constituted or contained "scornful disdain", and that was not my intent. I was just correcting you.

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Understood

I was referring to your words from a previous post about your justified anger because you thought I was 'out of the bounds of your parameters for discussion.' and the tone of your response with insulting.

Or did you suddenly develop amnesia?

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It is the economy, stupid.

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You have to realize that if

You have to realize that if you start off on a thread with a comment that is both clearly invalid (just an obvious misunderstanding on your part) AND insulting, there's a decent chance you're gonna get some attitude coming back in your direction. In your first post on this thread you wrote:

It is impossible to have a rational discussion about this if you are going to accuse people that hold an opposing view as killers, advocates for genocide, or infanticide. So let's not pretend like you are interested in being rational.

You obviously misunderstood what I was saying, wildly mischaracterized it, and insulted me. Can you see how that would be a bit irritating, and why it would be difficult to respond politely and perhaps at least somewhat justified (even if perhaps not ideal) if someone did not respond politely?

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Okay.

I can (partially) accept that.

Yet the emphasis of your reasoning, trying to decide just exactly when a woman, might be a killer/murderer if she has had an abortion at 12 weeks + 2 seconds, to me is offensive. Does that 2 seconds really make a woman a murderer.

From my schluby perspective you keep insisting that logically abortion is killing at best and murder at the least.

I hope that you can acknowledge that wrapping inflammatory accusations like this in 'logic', make the accusation no less inflammatory.

As many others have stated, this is an emtional issue and one that is private.

If my eleven year old daughter got raped by the football team, and she ends up pregnant........ you see where I am going.

You can not apply consistent conditions across the board, because each individual woman and womb has a different circumstance. Why do you leave that out of your logical equation? In other words, you are not looking at the whole apple, you are only looking at the seed, which imho is short sighted.

I put my dog to sleep because he had cancer. Did I murder my dog. Did I kill my dog, or did I put him to sleep because his quality of life was pure suffering.
I made that decision with thoughtful care.

Is it your business to then call me a dog killer or a dog murderer. Logically you could. You could make a rationale case that I was a dog murderer but that would be a complete mischaracterization, even though it would be logically sound.

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It is the economy, stupid.

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From a mathematical perspective

If we pretend like scientifically a fetus is deemed viable at 12 weeks + one second.

Since time is infinitely divisible, or since you can divide that one second infinitely into yet smaller numbers, then there is no such thing as a correct moment for your much sought after 'exact moment' for assigning of viability because it doesn't exist.

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It is the economy, stupid.

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This is an emotional issue

This is an emotional issue on both sides, and rightly so. And the stakes are great: The POSSIBILITY (depending on one's view of personhood) that a person is being murdered vs. a certain infringement upon the bodily liberty of a woman. It's a very important issue, one that merits discussion, and one for which we have to try to contain our emotions enough to engage in RATIONAL discussion/debate.

As for "killing" vs. murder, as I've explained, deliberately, actively ending the life of any organism is killing, but only killing a person is murder. So, as a matter of definition, there is no such thing as a "dog murderer". It's not a matter of logic. It's a matter of definitions. And to say that you killed your dog is NOT to imply that you did anything wrong/immoral -- quite the contrary, in your case: it seems that it would have been immoral NOT to kill your dog. I know that language may be upsetting, but I'm trying to clarify these points.

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The stakes are great?

Only if you define a fetus as a person.

Since that takes a concise moment, that is mathematically undefineable (time is infinitely divisible) the only logical conclusion is to declare personhood at first breath. All other definitions have too many variables as to be precise, including the moment of conception which is unknowable.

Therefore the greatest threat is to the liberty of the woman.

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It is the economy, stupid.

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The two books where he addresses it best

are Notes from the Underground (which is short and fascinating, but dry) and The Brothers Karamazov (which is long but intense). I love them both!

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Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Thanks pico

I was hoping you would give me a short list.

I will go for short and fascinating to start!

__________________________

It is the economy, stupid.

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Logical gap - Point of Order

Logical Gap
- You have failed to show that the fetus is innocent.

Applicability Gap - You have failed to show that abortion is 'killing'. It could be logically and reasonably viewed as ceasing life support activities.

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What I mean by "innocent" is

What I mean by "innocent" is "not INTENDING to cause harm". Perhaps you could elaborate on how the fetus may not be innocent.

The "life support" point is an interesting one, and a legitimate challenge. I'll concede that there may be a continuum and a gray area between active killing and what perhaps could be described as "passive killing", or perhaps not killing at all, by removing life support.

Let me ask you this:

1) Couldn't that same "life support" point be used to justify making it legal for a mother (or father) to opt not to feed her baby to the point of death by starvation, which I believe is considered negligent homicide (not sure)?

2) I've presented previously an example of two conjoined twins, with twin #1 dependent for survival on the organs of twin #2, such that separation surgery would certainly kill twin #1, but not twin #2. Should twin #2 have the legal option of undergoing separation surgery without the consent of twin #1?

3) Suppose you were scuba diving at 120 ft. underwater. Suddenly, there is a malfunction of your breathing apparatus. I'm there next to you. I didn't dive with you (I'm not under any implicit contract to come to your aid), but I give you my "octopus" (secondary regulator) so you can access my oxygen. Let's assume doing so poses no reasonable danger to me. I decide, though, that I want to continue my dive without you. Should it be legal for me to shove you away, knowing that you will drown, rather than ascending with you to safety?

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Does innocence require intent?

If I fall asleep at the wheel am I necessarily innocent?
Bear in mind that I don't consider a fetus to be a human being. However, even if you did, the fact that it IS causing harm (it is acting as a parasite after all) allows one to consider it as an unintentional attack by a being one cannot communicate with.

1 & 3) No. There are many standard of care laws that state that if you provide life support for someone, you cannot stop providing life support, however these laws are predicated on the fact that your providing the care discourages others who might be capable for providing such care from doing so. i.e. You stop on the side of the road to help someone and as a result all the other folks drive by (having seen you were taking care of the victim). As a result you can no longer abandon them. This is distinct in that (again, even if the fetus were to be considered a live human) nobody can provide such care EXCEPT for the gestating mother. As a result, you have not diminished the liklihood of someone else providing such care (which was already zero) and do not gain a heightened duty.

2) Interesting question. Prove that the conjoined twins are in fact 2 people and not one person with two brains and a split personality. If you define individuality by the brain, haven't you stated that a fetus that has not yet developed such a brain is not an individual?

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Good stuff, k. Well argued.

Good stuff, k. Well argued. My thoughts/questions:

If I fall asleep at the wheel am I necessarily innocent?

ok, you're right. Lack of intent is insufficient for innocence. However, the guilt you are describing is based on harm done due to one's blatant failure to exercise a level of responsibility of which the person is capable and is expected to exercise out of consideration for the safety of others. That doesn't apply to a fetus. In the case of the fetus, any harm to the woman is completely incidental, not due to either intent or gross negligence. If I passed on some highly contagious disease, let's say just by breathing, but could not reasonably be considered responsible in any way for doing so (let's say I did not know I had caught it myself, nor did I have any reason to suspect I might have it, nor did I act in any irresponsible manner), I have harmed someone, but I am innocent, right? While we need not get bogged down in semantics, I assume you do not equate resulting harm with lack of innocence, right? And I assume you are not making the point that a fetus is guilty of something that renders it "deserving" of death as a matter of justice, right?

the fact that it IS causing harm (it is acting as a parasite after all) allows one to consider it as an unintentional attack by a being one cannot communicate with.

True.

1 & 3) No. There are many standard of care laws that state that if you provide life support for someone, you cannot stop providing life support, however these laws are predicated on the fact that your providing the care discourages others who might be capable for providing such care from doing so...This is distinct in that (again, even if the fetus were to be considered a live human) nobody can provide such care EXCEPT for the gestating mother. As a result, you have not diminished the liklihood of someone else providing such care (which was already zero) and do not gain a heightened duty.

ok, that point re: bringing a legal obligation upon one's self to continue care due to potential or likely discouragement of help from others is a fair point, at least in principle. So, a couple of thoughts/questions:

First, if I accept -- just arguendo, because we could explore hypotheticals or even actual scenarios in which that premise would not be valid -- that no one other than the current pregnant woman can continue to gestate the fetus, then I don't see how that would DIMINISH any obligation she may have to continue life support. If your point, however is that no one else could have gestated the fetus TO THIS POINT (and I'll accept that just arguendo, too, at least for now), and therefore she could not have discouraged others who might otherwise have provided life support and who might continue such life support, then I see your point that she has incurred no obligation akin to the person helping the stranded motorist or a mother with a baby.

Now, let's go to my scuba hypothetical. Let's say that there was no one else around to help you, and you had no other option (no other means of survival) other than to share my oxygen, so I have neither discouraged others from helping you nor discouraged you from helping yourself in some other way. The same goes for a moment AFTER we begin sharing oxygen, so even then, you have no other option and the sharing of oxygen with me is not lessening the chances of some other solution. In fact, we could even say that I did not consent to sharing oxygen with you -- you just grabbed my "octopus" (extra air hose, "extra regulator") and I shoved you away, knowing it would mean death for you, even though there was no danger to me from allowing you to continue. Now, should it be legal for me to do so?

2) Interesting question. Prove that the conjoined twins are in fact 2 people and not one person with two brains and a split personality. If you define individuality by the brain, haven't you stated that a fetus that has not yet developed such a brain is not an individual?

I didn't say they shared the same brain. If they did, I wouldn't know either if they were two persons or just one. I guess it would depend on what parts were shared (cerebrum is what counts, I assume) and how it functions. But in any case, I was thinking in terms of other vital organs or essential physiology. If I were arguing your side of this dialogue, I'd question if we could really tell whose liver, kidney, etc., it was if they are, in effect, sharing them, but if you'll accept, arguendo, that such a distinction can be made, the question stands, so please revisit it.

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Thank you. Innocence in the absence of obligation

Recall please that I don't consider a fetus be a living human until the mother is no longer constructing (i.e. the child could, if born, survive on medical care of a similar nature required for a typical 'born' person. Including food, air, drugs etc. (no gestation machine)). (Consistent yes?)

That said, I consider innocence and guilt to be opposing concepts. Someone is innocent because they COULD have been guilty, but were not. An unthinking being that can't form intent can neither be guilty or innocent in my book.

Scuba: This is a fair case. However, I'd argue that the state has the right to exert control over your use of your octopus. Constitutionally, there is the power of eminent domain, so the octopus is clearly not beyond the reach of the state. You could claim financial damages from the other scuba diver and claim compensation. However, a woman's uterus, is to the best of my knowledge NOT available for state control. For example, could the state REQUIRE a woman to act as a surrogate? Suppose someone was going to lose their baby could the state require someone else accept implantation? Since the state can't seize a woman's uterus (or your kidney, blood, etc) I'd argue that the analogy breaks down at this point.

Conjoined Twins: What I meant was why do you define conjoined twins as "two people" just because he has two brains? Why is it not a single person? If an individual had two hearts, you'd still consider them to be an individual. However, most people consider them to be conjoined twins rather than a dual brained individual. Why is that? Why is the number of fully functioning brains so relevant to our determination of individuality and what implication does that have on a fetus' personhood?

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Recall please that I don't

Recall please that I don't consider a fetus be a living human until the mother is no longer constructing (i.e. the child could, if born, survive on medical care of a similar nature required for a typical 'born' person. Including food, air, drugs etc. (no gestation machine)). (Consistent yes?)

Sure, we can get back to the personhood thing at a later point (as a minor nitpick, a fetus is alive and has human DNA, so I would say it IS a “living human”, although not necessarily a person). Anyway, I realize that for now we’re just discussing if it should be legal to cut off life support for an innocent (healthy) person without consent; I realize you’re not conceding that any particular type of fetus is a person.

That said, I consider innocence and guilt to be opposing concepts. Someone is innocent because they COULD have been guilty, but were not. An unthinking being that can't form intent can neither be guilty or innocent in my book.

Well, I don’t know if the semantics matter or not, but for whatever it’s worth, I think a more appropriate definition of “innocence” for the purposes of our discussion is “absence of guilt”, period. But I think the semantics don’t matter that much. I think we agree that the fetus residing inside a woman that does not want it there is causing harm (at the very least, emotional harm) and that it is not guilty of any transgression that would make it deserving of death or of any other kind of punishment. I think that covers whatever relevant concepts pertained to the question of “innocence” of the fetus. Agree?

Scuba: This is a fair case. However, I'd argue that the state has the right to exert control over your use of your octopus. Constitutionally, there is the power of eminent domain, so the octopus is clearly not beyond the reach of the state. You could claim financial damages from the other scuba diver and claim compensation. However, a woman's uterus, is to the best of my knowledge NOT available for state control.

Let’s stay away from what the Constitution says and what current law is. For one thing, we don’t need to limit the topic to the U.S. But moreover, I’d much rather explore what SHOULD be than what IS as a matter of current law or what relevant laws probably WOULD be regarding a given scenario and act. (also, if we go down the road of a discussion of constitutionality and law, we’ll be going down an entirely different, long and complex road – if a road can be complex…maybe not the best metaphor, but you know what I mean. I was doing ok until I got to that third adjective.).

For example, could the state REQUIRE a woman to act as a surrogate? Suppose someone was going to lose their baby could the state require someone else accept implantation? Since the state can't seize a woman's uterus (or your kidney, blood, etc) I'd argue that the analogy breaks down at this point.

Tough question, as a matter of general principle, even if, as I’d like to do, we are asking what the state SHOULD require rather than what it could under the U.S. Constitution or current law. You may have intended it to be a rhetorical question, which would be understandable, but it illustrates a gray area rather than serving to wholly refute the point of the scuba analogy. While I would lean toward saying that the state should not require such a thing of a woman, even if it is necessary to save the life of a PERSON, that is because of the magnitude of the violation of the would-be surrogate’s body rather than because NO infringement by the state could be justified. In other words, it’s a matter of degree: HOW MUCH infringement on bodily liberty is justified to save another person? Which leads me back to my scuba analogy, and why I’d like you to return to it and provide another iteration of a response to it in light of these comments. I only need to spend five minutes ascending to the surface to save your life. It would be only a minor inconvenience. Should it be illegal for me to force you away from me, knowing that you will die as a result?

Also, just to add another variation of essentially the same hypothetical, let’s say that, for some bizarre reason, John Doe can save a thousand lives if he will just cut off one millimeter of one hair. Should the state (i.e., the law) require him to do so? If not, are there ANY circumstances you can imagine (realistic or otherwise), with ANY type and magnitude o frelated consequences depending upon the actions of the individual in question, in which you WOULD say that the state should require that individual to accept even the most minor, most temporary alteration of his body, or for that matter that the state should infringe upon bodily liberty in any other way for the benefit of others (excluding imprisonment of convicts/suspects/etc.)?

Conjoined Twins: What I meant was why do you define conjoined twins as "two people" just because he has two brains? Why is it not a single person? If an individual had two hearts, you'd still consider them to be an individual. However, most people consider them to be conjoined twins rather than a dual brained individual. Why is that? Why is the number of fully functioning brains so relevant to our determination of individuality and what implication does that have on a fetus' personhood?

Well, that one is surprising. While not everyone will agree, I think the only sensible view of personhood – of what makes a person a person – centers on the functioning of the brain. You can chop off every other part of my body, but if my brain is still functioning as it was previously, I am still a person (and still me). Alternatively, if you puree my brain but somehow keep my body “alive”, I am certainly no longer a person, let alone me. Some may disagree, but I’m going to be frank and undiplomatic and say that such people are being just plain silly. So conjoined twins with separate, fully-functioning brains are most certainly two persons, not one.

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More responses

But got to taper off as I'm gone for the holiday.

First, to answer your nit, a chicken egg has chicken DNA and is alive, but I feel comfortable saying it isn't really a "living chicken". Maybe that's a semantic thing.

Innocence being absence of guilt: I don't think that is sufficient. I don't consider a rock or grass to be innocent per se.

To answer your Scuba analogy again, I would say that it is reasonable to require you to take him to the surface and it is reasonable to require them to pay a reasonable fee for your time. We as a society have agreed that scuba equipment is a commodity that can be replaced. That is very distinct for organs (even temporary usage) or 'consent' for various activities. And I agree that this SHOULD be he case as well as actually being the case.

The hair case is inappropriate as we have been discussing theft of major body activities. Hair is not such an organ. The law can require you to cut your hair to join the military or if you are imprisoned. I'd say use of 'dead' portions of your body such as hair and toenails don't rise to the same level as living, active components.

Finally, on the conjoined twins. That was kind of my point. You see the brain as the seat of individuality. The fetus that has none should not be compared to the conjoined twin that does. As the fetus' brain slowly develops, this slowly becomes murkier, which was why I chose that point that I did (it is pretty clear that all of the organs involved belong to the mother)

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Have a good Holiday. I'll

Have a good Holiday. I'll reply before you're back (I assume)

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K, Pardon my delay. Forgot

K,
Pardon my delay. Forgot about this until just now, and it might be a few days before I have a chance to reply, but I will eventually. I appreciate the exchange.

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I think the law makes it pretty simple

a fetus is a "potential" life and therefore not a person.

I'm sorry, I don't really have much to say on abortion other than:

1. Right to privacy DOES MATTER

2. A fetus is not a person....legally.

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Even if, just arguendo, it

Even if, just arguendo, it were a simple legal matter, that wouldn't make it necessarily a simple matter from a moral perspective (and laws can change, and aren't the same in every country/state/etc.)

Do you think -- not legally, but in your own view of personhood -- that a fetus ten minutes before delivery is NOT a person, but ten minutes after delivery IS a person, and if so, what does that say about what you think makes a person a person (your criteria for personhood)?

My belief is that personhood is a function of the nature and level of our thoughts and emotions, and I would have trouble distinguishing between those two fetuses, calling one a person and one not. And if they are both persons, they both have a right to life.

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Morally,

I think abortion is terrible. If someone is going to do it, the sooner the better and be done with it. I would never favor taking that recourse away from a woman.

Morally, as a terrible and traumatic the whole ordeal is, I think having a late term abortion is even worse. Now you're treading a fine line between a fetus and a viable baby. I would frown on any woman that waited so long to make this decision and would hope she had a darn good reason. But again, I would choose to take that right away.

However, if such a law were passed to restrict late term abortions, I would be that troubled by it.

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We could all have bad

We could all have bad feelings and be troubled by killing a fetus OR taking away a woman's liberty, but ultimately we are left with the question of how to weigh one against the other. Are you saying that you would oppose any law that restricting any late term abortions? If so, since I assume that you would oppose infanticide because an infant is a person, you are presumably asserting that a fetus ten minutes prior to delivery is not a person. Which leads back to the question of your criteria for personhood.

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easy there

let's not look for absolutes.

I think my views are pretty clear.

late term abortions are a real gray area. The fetus, at this point, is viable outside the womb even though it's technically not a person until born.

This is real fuzzy. I said this one troubled me and it does. I don't have a solid opinion in terms of law but my instincts do lean toward the mother's rights.

Again, not a topic I have a lot to say on.

I'm pro-choice. I side with the woman's rights. Her rights supersede the "potential rights" of a "potential life". Nonetheless, that late term issue troubles me. I wish women didn't wait that long.

That's all I can say.