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Biggest losers

were the pundits, who obviously didn't have a clue.

Over at MSNBC Chris Matthews, just an hour before the polls closed, was shouting down Dee Dee Myers, who was defending Hillary. A couple hours later he was chastised and Tom Brokaw was telling him that next time the media should wait for voters to actually vote.

qui tacet consentire

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I think it was last night

I saw Matthews at a Hilary event asking her a question. She responded (paraphrasing) "I'm never quite sure how to handle men who are obsessed with me" at which point Matthews repeated "I'm not obsessed" about five times. Quite funny.

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hey you!

wrong blog. did you get lost? hahaha.

Nice to see you over here!

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Ditto (nt)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Welcome to the show

Apparently my friend John knows you. :-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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he's a Forvm dude.

ya know...that other bi-partisan site. :)

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Er

Shouldn't that be quint-partisan?

Wait, no, I'm wrong: blue, red, purple, yellow, black, and Skymutt's custom color --- does that make it sex-partisan?

Welcome HankP.

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Sept-

:P

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Oh rats

Yep, forgot the greens

Sept it is

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I'd like to use plaid, but it isn't a choice. (n/t)

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Yes, welcome

qui tacet consentire

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Brendan obviously hasn't told you guys about me nt

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Media coverage

They have so much invested in creating stories when there are none in order to attract viewers that they can't be seen as neutral, dispassionate reporters.

Now the narrative will change because Hillary won NH. They're invested in keeping people interested in this race, so they'll distort coverage in order to keep it going for as long as possible.

The sad part is that people are swayed by the media so much.

Meh. We get the government we deserve.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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tweety really believes

he knows better. He relishes his self image as an elite beltway insider. He knows everything and nobody tells him something he thinks isn't so so (or refutes something he does think is so)

That said, he was actually right this one time with dee dee.

she was trying to claim that Hillary was never really the front runner and that expectations were too high in IA.'

Tweety was justified in saying HOGWASH because everyone knows she was dubbed the favorite before the 04 elections were even over.

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No

Dee Dee said that Clinton was not always considered the front-runner. And that is correct. Clinton was certainly the front runner the last several months, but not a year ago, as Dee Dee was trying to say except that Matthews was practically screaming at her.

qui tacet consentire

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Exit Polls...

The exit polls showed a 39-34 Obama win.

That means the exit polls, the most reliable of all polling data, were off by 8%.

I was a statistics major in college, and I'm telling you, with the improved methodology that exit polls have today, that the chances of an exit poll being off by that much are off-the-charts miniscule.

We're talking odds-of-winning-the-powerball miniscule.

Especially with the large sample set they took and the relatively small state. The exit polling margin of error was +/- 2%. For them to be off 8% would represent one of three things

A) Completely messed up methodology. After the beating that exit-polling took in '00 and '04, these outfits have cleaned up their methodology and have taken great pains to avoid this kind of mistake

or

B) Tampering

or

C) Voting machine error

I've never bought into the conspiracy theories, but for those that do, this gives them some ammunition.

Remember, exit polls come AFTER people voted, so they would measure any last-minute "sea change".

Even in 2000 and 2004, the exit polling was not THAT far off.

We've all heard about Hillary's campaign "machine"....
who knew that it might have a "Diebold" logo plate on it?

I'm only half-joking.

I'm not saying that something went on here.... I'm just sayin'.

I survived the Bush Administration

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Yes Prime Mover

It seems suspicious and contrary. Thanks for your statistical analysis. I know you are only half joking, and are just saying, and I am just half cryin' at this Floridaesque data.

If the polls were correct yesterday, and all the rest of it the Clinton Camp stood to lose literally everything.

The good news is that people are p*ssed, therefore charged up and will be working harder. At least the CSpan callers this morning were.

Odd also that Hillary's campaign message *evolved* into 'Ready for Change', mimicing the message of Stand for Change.

I am stick to death of this status quo. A Clinton win would be very dispiriting for me.

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I have to wonder though

as to the exact phrasing of the exit poll question.

I can easily imagine a scenario where independent voters prefered Obama overall but shoce to vote in the rep primary to help McCain.

Depending on how the exit poll question was phrased that could have counted them as either McCain voters (correctly) or as Obama voters (incorrectly).

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I am not sure what exit polls you are talking about

NBC Exit polls clearly show the same exact winning margin as she got...

So the exit polls were right on the money.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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If you watched the coverage all night....

...you know that NBC changed their exit poll numbers after the results.

MSNBC, at 8:00pm, when the polls closed reported on the air:

Obama 39
Clinton 34

as the results of their exit polling.

They later altered the numbers. If you watched all night, you saw it.

They did the same thing in 2004.... Reported their initial exit polls, and then modified the numbers when it showed they were wrong.

Now... either Hillary got an incredible amount of votes in the FINAL hours of voting, after the initial exit polls, or something weird happened here.

A) I wouldn't put it past the Clinton "machine" to do something.

B) I wouldn't put it past the Republicans doing something.... in my view, and many others, Hillary represents a much easier opponent for the GOP in the general election than Obama.

Regardless of if their was funny business going on, the biggest winner on Tuesday night besides Hillary and McCain was the national RNC. If Hillary is the Dem nominee, the Republicans fund-raising is made MUCH MUCH easier, and getting their base to rally around their candidate is not an issue.

If Hillary is the Dem nominee, the GOP can run Elmer Fudd in the general election and have their base come out.

In addition, Independents are not very enthusiastic about Hillary... and in the general election, if you don't have the independents, you don't win.

Fundraising, GOTV efforts, and attraction of independents for the GOP all get much easier if Hillary is their opponent. That is simply a fact.

I survived the Bush Administration

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Paul's not a great campaigner

If you don't agree with his general platform after about 2 minutes, the staff isn't that astute at wooing new voters.

He;s pretty good at preaching general pragmatic libertarianism but he's not very good at sustained campaigning and knowing how to fine tune some platitudes like everyone else.

He needs better speech writers and media people. I don't think he ever took his chances too seriously and it shows in his polishing.

But he's breaking ground for an alternative POV that hopefully won't fade and just might inspire a communicators for the future.

I still hope he sticks it out.

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His campaign has been pretty impressive as far

as raising money goes.

I think the turnout being older than expected (than I had expected, anyway) probably hurt him. And it sounds like the independent-type NH voters went for McCain because they knew he was in a close race with Romney -- if one or the other had been more ahead in polls, Paul might have got more of those votes.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Still,

he gets all the money because people who agree with him believe strongly in his message.

But he's not a smooth talker and isn't prone to grand, vague rhetoric that sounds good but means little.

He needs to tie it all together better and pick his rhetorical shots more wisely.

Ka1igu1a and I were discussing this and we feel the more he sticks to "Reason-ish libertarianism", the better and stronger he sounds. He departs from this sometimes and hurts his appeal.

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I'm an older guy

so I hate to tell you this, but it happens pretty often. A candidate will come in and hit on a theme that gets lip service at best and hostility at worst from the other candidates (Ron Paul is anti-war, Howard Dean was anti-war, Ralph Nader is anti-war, Ross Perot was anti-tax cuts and NAFTA, John Anderson was a fiscally conservative and socially liberal Republican, McGovern was anti-war, McCarthy was anti-war, etc. They do get a lot of excitement and support from young voters, but that's never seemed to make the difference in the final results. I don't see this ending any differently.

The American public is very conservative in the sense that they almost always want a name-brand candidate. Things would have to get quite a bit worse before an outsider would get elected.

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Well, Hank

I understand what you're saying but at the same time I'm always hopeful that a paradigm shift can occur, that new ideas can truly affect the status quo. It happens...though slowly.

The parties already are not what they were a generation or two ago.

Things change a little at a time...sometimes for the better, often for the worse.

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I'm out of his corner

His complete and utter mishandling of the old racist, homophobic newsletters was enough for me to take his name off of my car bumper.

Looks like I'm officially undecided again.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Well, then TNR got the cheap effect it wanted.

Blow smoke into a room and scream fire.

He's explained all this before. Of course, I think he should go into gory detail and make the press happy. But that doesn't change the truth behind all of it.

My view is that if people want to know, they find out. If they don't want to know, they don't.

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It was his explanations that upset me

Radley Balko of Reason said it best:

Like Nick Gillespie, I think the most disappointing thing about all of this is what Dave Weigel posted this afternoon from New Hampshire: Paul doesn't consider this worthy of a serious reaction. I was hoping for much, much more.

I don't believe he's a racist or a homophobe. He just hadn't denounced these letters strongly enough nor has he denounced his stormfront supporters enough to make me happy.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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I agree 100% with Reason on this

And like the guys at Reason, I think that this reflects somewhat on Paul but not in the way that the hit piece intends. I think Paul is genuinely ashamed of that nonesense and I know that it doesn't reflect his views. Any serious glance at his owns words on these issues shows how unracist he is..

However, I find his attitude that it doesn't deserve a stronger explanation to be disappointing

Paul should go further in his denouncements of the letters.

But my bottom line is that these theatrical sideshows do not change his real views. And on race, he is the most unracist candidate out there.

His own words have always made this extremely clear. Sadly, some that do not share his whole philosophy, support him for some bad reasons.

In all of this talk, we should never lose sight of this simple truth.

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BTW, Stinerman, in case you're interested...

one link of many discussing this matter in deeper detail. Older libertarians who remember the whole thing when it was new are sharing their thoughts on it. This is but one.

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Good on you stinerman

I admire you for that.

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Giuliani was campaigning like crazy in NH

I think you are taking campaign literature at face value, and you might want to reconsider

But Giuliani's effort here has been Herculean. Romney held 176 events in New Hampshire through Tuesday, primary day, while Giuliani held 126. That's considerably more than McCain, who held 104, and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, who held 93.

Moreover, Giuliani held more events in New Hampshire than either Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., or Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., who are favored to come in first and second (not necessarily in that order) on the Democrats' side.

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Thanks (nt)

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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Giuliani is toast

He spent $2.4 million on ads in NH and had 65 people at his event tonight, according to NPR. That's about $37,000 per attendee.

Huckabee will beat him in Florida and he can go back to his book signings and start looking for his next wife.

qui tacet consentire

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Slight correction Quaoar

Laughed at the 'looking for the next wife comment, but you left out some important punctuation...

In memory of 9/11, he spent $2.4 million on ads in NH and had 65 people at his event tonight, according to NPR. That's about $37,000 per attendee (each of whom the islamofascists that attacked us on 9/11 want dead).

Huckabee will beat him in Florida and he can go back to his book signings and start looking for his next wife... um... something to do with 9/11

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Guiliani has put all his eggs in the Feb 5th basket.

I'm not sure where he'll win on the 5th, but he'll probably pick up a state or two. I think we have a case here of Rudy believing his own press/marketing people and not even considering any other point of view.

Sorry Ender, I know Rudy is your guy. I hope you can take his eventual 86ing from the race with good grace.

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How about ole Fred Thompson

One percent of the vote.

I repeat -- 1%

Can you be repudiated any more thoroughly than that?

qui tacet consentire

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Yep, pretty sad

You'd think he could have done better than that. Somehow he has to win SC, *maybe* second place, if he wants to stay in the race. Maybe he'd make a good VP candidate for one of the other guys.

Supposing he drops out, I'm not sure who I would fall back to at this point. Not Paul, who I consider a nutjob. Not Huck, who is basically a member of the religious left. Not Duncan Hunter, who needs to drop out already.

That leaves Rudy, Mitt, and McCain, each of whom is flawed in their own list of ways. Although, in the end, I suspect I would vote for any of Rudy, Mitt, or McCain over any of Clinton, Obama, or Edwards.

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So I'm gonna say what we all know. Please bare with me.

We've had Iowa (pop 2.9 mil, voting pop probably 60% of that) & New Hampshire (pop 1.2 mil, again figure a voting pop of about 60% of that) actually cast votes for the primaries. This is out of a US population of 303.1 mil. We've seen 1.35% of America vote for office and everyone is acting like it's all a done deal.

I know why the media plays it that way. They want to push their ratings. They really care mostly about how it builds (or subtracts) from their advertising revenue. The media as a whole, print, television & to some extent the net has gone into a wholly hyperventillating mode.

I can understand why TV does it. They are pandering to the most plugged in part of their audience. Those folks who eat drink & breath politics. But is that a smart business choice? Yes and no. Yes in that they are catering to thier prime audience, even if that audience isn't representative of anything. No in that most Americans are much more low key and laid back about the whole election. Most Americans care, but not so much as they care about other factors in their daily lives. Should TV pander to that portion of America? That'd be dumb. Spending assets on a portion of the public that they are almost guaranteed to get almost no return on.

That's why I say, I understand why media has it's head up it's posterior regions right now. It's in their own self serving interests to do so. So really....for most of us, we'll engage on whatever level we choose. We should all just be aware that, as ususal, just because some pampered self important gasbag on the idiot box (or the Op-Ed pages) excitedly proclaims something, doesn't mean we should believe that idiot is even remotely close to our truths.

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5 minutes into a football game...

So, it's as if we were five minutes into a football game, right?

To make it worse, both Iowa and NH allocated delegates in propotion to the vote -- so all this talk about the "winner" is nonsense. Isn't Romney leading in the delegate count right now? 

However, this "proportional crap" is all over for the Republicans. They like their winner-take-all war of all against all (or maybe they just like to have their king crowned without all this ambiguity about their identity).

But those crazy hippie Democrats will be doing proportional representation throughout the whole thing. They insist on counting every vote at the end and seeing which candidate got the most...crazy! 

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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