Medical Insurance, two personal tales

Promoted by Brendan

I think this story helps to illustrate what's wrong with the medical insurance industry in this country, and why/how we should change it.

During the period when my wife and I were dating she was unemployed, having been laid off from a job at an ambulance dispatch service. One day while leaving my house she stepped in a pothole and twisted her ankle. It hurt a fair amount but not so much that she needed to go to the emergency room. Not being employed she had no employer insurance. The Oregon Health Plan (a health welfare program) has had to cut way back because state funding just isn't available. Being unemployed there was no way she could afford an uninsured doctor's visit (assuming she could find one who took the uninsured, good luck with that).

Consequently she was not treated for the injury. She soldiered on, assuming it was just a sprain and would heal. Except it never did. She'd actually damaged her ankle pretty badly given that she could still walk (with pain).

Consequently ever since then it's been a lot harder for her to hold down a job. Any kind of work that requires standing for significant portions of the day is torturous. We use mass transit, which involves a fair amount of walking to and from stops. She hasn't been able to exercise as much which leads to further health risks. She's had to buy special motion control shoes which she would otherwise not need. An ankle brace is her standard accoutrement now. Forget dancing, hiking, or anything of that nature. Now that she's on my insurance she's had long costly physical therapy, which really amounted to nothing because the injury is essentially healed wrong by this point.

The loss in terms of productivity and quality of life is really quite staggering when you consider that she's 31 and will likely live with this pain the rest of her life.

All because of a pothole.

A pothole and our retarded medical system. We've been told by everyone at this point that the injury would have been pretty easy to treat when it was fresh. A simple little visit would have prevented all of this, but it was financially out of reach, and so we all suffer. And I guess we should because it was *we* who made it out of reach- we decided to have a system where health insurance is conflated with employment.

Here's the second story-

I was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis last year. The meds they want me to take cost in the neighborhood of 30-40 grand a year and I'll probably be on them the rest of my life. I think it goes without saying that I don't have a spare 30-40 grand a year. The drawbacks of not being on medication are painful to consider.

Which means one thing- I'm a slave.

My work can essentially do anything to me because what am I going to do? Quit? I'll never get Health Insurance again. Or if I do the rates will be outrageous to the point of being as unaffordable as the meds. So I'm stuck here. Probably for the rest of my life, unless we change the system. I am pretty literally enslaved by our current system.

And that won't change unless the system of for profit insurers goes away. So long as health insurance is a get rich scheme for parasites it will never be equitable, it will never have reason to cover those with preexisting conditions (or will find loopholes around laws that bar such exclusions). So long as insurance is an industry they have a very strong financial motive not to help people like me- the very people who are supposed to be getting help.

So, yeah, I do take this issue kind of personally.

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There are so many stories

out there like this.

To add insult to injury......

Humana Posts Record Quarterly Profits

Health insurer Humana Inc. posted a 57 percent surge in fourth-quarter earnings Monday from its growing government segment, a lower-than-expected income tax rate and a gain on the sale of a venture capital investment.

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My thoughts

And I guess we should because it was *we* who made it out of reach- we decided to have a system where health insurance is conflated with employment.

Yes. I'm very opposed and always have been. It's a bad idea. A very bad idea. We need a serious deregulation on this or at least a continued push away from employer based health insurance. It should be individualized to suit people's needs and should never be tied to employment.

That applies to your diagnosis as well. People should never be slaves to their job. Health insurance should be your own.

Health savings accounts are token step in the right direction. But without a serious push away from employer based health insurance, the idea will not flourish or evolve into something better.

But keep in mind, the things you complain about are problems with the current system...which is anything but free market. Far from it. few things have been gotten as much tapering and regulation as health insurance and the problems it has spawned has led to a multitude of new problems...cost of care being one of them.

BTW, my aunt, who has a ton problems with arthritis and my cousin who is on heavy medication to maintain a chemical balance in his brain were forced to get off my group policy after I random audit showed they were no longer employed by me. The insurance company simply moved them onto individual plans at the same rate with the same coverages. Something to look into....if you haven't.

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The employer insurance link is #1 on Gary Becker's list as well.

 

American health care generally gets poor grades in international comparisons of health care systems. Although major reforms are needed in the American approach, international comparisons underrate American health care. This is partly because these comparisons give insufficient weight to the fact that most of the new drugs to treat major diseases originated in the US, along with many of the new surgical procedures, and insights about the importance of lifestyles in good health. This helps explain why many Canadians and those from other countries come to the US to treat serious diseases rather than visa versa. The US is also much more generous than other countries, such as Great Britain and France, in making expensive surgeries and drugs available to older persons through Medicare and private insurance. This too significantly raises the cost of health care. Moreover, the American health system is decentralized and "messy", and many health evaluators prefer a single payer (i.e., government) centralized approach to health care as opposed to any market-based approach.

This is not to deny that the American health care system has serious defects. If I were running for president, and allowed only four reforms, I would emphasize the following (assuming I do not worry about getting enough votes to be elected!):

1) Eliminate the link between employment and the tax advantage of private health insurance. Since much of the spending on health are investments in human capital, there is good reason to exempt these expenditures, along with other investments, from income taxes. However, this employment link is inequitable because it does not provide the same tax advantages to families without employment-based insurance. It also encourages expensive employer health plans that have significant consumption components since the government picks up much of the cost of such coverage. President Bush has proposed a reasonable alternative; give every family a flat $15,000 standard deduction (and half that amount for individuals), whether or not their health insurance is obtained through their employer. They would still get this deduction if they spend less on their insurance, so they have incentives to economize on their health care (but by my reform number 4, everyone would have to take out catastrophic coverage). Consumers would have to pay for any coverage in excess of $15,000, so they would only choose such coverage if they were willing to spend their own money, not taxpayers.

2) Encourage the spread of Health Savings Accounts (see my discussion on Feb. 5, 2006) that encourage consumers to economize on unnecessary medical expenditures. Present law allows tax-free contributions to these Accounts of up to about $2700 for individuals and double that amount to $5450 for families, as long as these contributions are not greater than the deductibles on their health insurance. Contributions to HSAs that are not spent in any year can be carried over to future years without any tax liabilities, and even into retirement income. So HSAs are an efficient way to save as well as to spend on non-catastrophic medical care. Health Savings Accounts have spread since they were introduced several years ago, but might need greater encouragement, such as higher limits.

3) Medicare spending amounts to about $350 billion a year, it constitutes about 12 percent of federal spending, and it is one of the most rapidly growing entitlements. It is projected to continue to grow as a fraction of GDP from its present 2.7 percent level to over 11 percent in 2080. The source of the growth is the continued aging of the population, and the increased per capita medical spending on older person as new medical technologies and drugs are developed. Projections made by Medicare Actuaries indicate that the Medicare HI Trust Fund will be exhausted by the year 2018-only a decade away.

Reform of Medicare is probably among the most challenging not only because of the elderly's political clout, but also because Americans have come to expect access to expensive medical treatments as they age. Still, the prescription drug coverage introduced into Medicare in 2003 was an important step in the right direction, despite the flaws in the program (see my discussion on February 3, 2005). Drugs are not only increasingly available to fight many diseases of old age, but drugs, once developed, are relatively cheap to extend to large numbers of users. Even when drugs provide only small benefits as they are extended to groups that can benefit less from the drugs, the costs are far less than would be required to provide expensive surgeries or hospitalizations to older persons with few years of life remaining. This is why I would greatly increase the generosity of Medicare drug coverage, and compensate for the additional expense by cutting down on allowances for lengthy hospital stays, and raising other co-pays.

4) I do not believe the problem of the uninsured in the US is as serious as usually claimed since most of those without health insurance are young and do not have major medical expenses. When they do, they can use emergency room service at major hospitals, although studies show that they do not even use emergency room care more often than others. Still, it may be desirable to require that everyone must contract for private catastrophic health care since the uninsured tend to use taxpayer and philanthropic funded medical care facilities to pay for the costs of any major illnesses. Medicaid should be extended to cover anyone who cannot afford such catastrophic insurance. Compulsory coverage would integrate the 45 million or so uninsured Americans into an overall health care system while still preserving the desirable decentralized private system of health care.

 

Best of luck Tlaloc.  I think it's safe to say we're all on the same side even though we would address what we'd all concede is a mess with very different solutions.

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Gary Becker is a very smart man :)

Seriously. And it's not because I happen to agree with on many many things.

He's a brilliant economist and one our great thinkers.

He was cited often by Tim Harford in his new book The Logic of Life . BTW, an excellent and stupendous book. I just finished it last week. Fascinating.

I was going to write about but I figured nobody would care. ;)

I dunno. I may pick a few chapters and make separate posts. He covers some really juicy stuff. I highly recommend the book to everyone!

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Powerful diary, Brendan.

Powerful diary, Brendan. Healthcare policy is an area in which I'm shamefully ignorant. I've just never taken the time to read up on it and try to weigh the options. But whenever I get around to it, I'll definitely keep in mind this diary. Thanks.

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Apologies Tlaloc. I see now

Apologies Tlaloc. I see now that the diary is yours. Kudos to you. (and good decision to promote, Brendan)

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I think I may have just made up my mind

-- finally -- about who to vote for.

This and Krugman.

qui tacet consentire

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I agree

My fiancée had severe headaches for several years because she couldn't afford to get her impacted wisdom teeth out. Her teeth also are misaligned, after having been corrected by braces due to the same.

I know the feeling. It sucks.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

…………

Max Baucus is taking Hank Paulson to task

right now this minute on the insane cost of health care!!!

The dogma that Medicare and Entitlements are gonna bust the budget...... the mantra of the right.

Baucus is making the distinct point that it isn't medicare that is the problem, but the rising cost of health care! Yeah!

Go Max!

This magic trick of nearly doubling the cost of health care, them pointing out that after you raised the prices to the sky, medicare is just too too expensive.

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John Roberts (R) Kansas

is spittin' mad...... sounding like a liberal!!

Paulson actually looks somewhat ashamed.

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Roberts is a Dem

and he's also a SCOTUS justice. And he's also not mad...he's just spittin'....missknowitall.

:)

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stop evangelizing

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and I don't think

they are really Baucus and paulson...just because. And don't tell me that are and that I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe it's just not like you say.

;)

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Tlaloc, As noted above, I

Tlaloc,

As noted above, I find your diary powerful, moving and thought-provoking. I do have one question, however. I see that you are an "anarchist". Assuming you are advocating universal healthcare or some other governmental assurance of at least the opportunity for healthcare, how does that square with being an anarchist?

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BR-

There's a contradiction there, and you aren;t the first to notice. The key to understand is that I think Anarchism is something to move towards not something to impose now.

As much as I might wish otherwise people (and I do not exclude myself here) are just not ready. We've had 10 millenia of organized society, we can't go to an anarchist mode of society over night. I deally I'd like to see a slow and steady dismantling of the state as people take on more and more personal responsibility. Even if everyone thought it was a goal worth working towards I doubt we'd be ready in my lifetime. And it goes without saying that there are more than a few who think the whole idea is asinine on the face of it.

So consequently the question is what to do in the meantime. Now one line of thought is that you try to screw up the system to encourage people towards anarchy. I don't see that as productive. If people are uncomfortable because the system is bad they won;t go towards anarchy, they'll go towards someone who wants to fix the system, and you can't blame them for that.

As I see it the only way people will really choose anarchism is if we get a well ordered and functional society that does everything fairly well and people realize it just isn't enough. It isn;t good enough to be comfortable pets, they want to be really free. At *that* point we can start moving towards anarchism confident that it's the right thing.

And if it turns out I'm wrong about people we still get a nice well ordered society that does everything fairly well. That's a decent consolation prize.

So, yes, I do take a lot of positions that are not directly based on the idea that we should get rid of authority systems. And yes it does seem contradictory to my stated goal on the surface, but underneath it really does have a certain logic.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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BTW

if you want to read a bit more about my views on anarchism you can start here.

I'm always happy to discuss the topic if it interests you.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Re: "yes it does seem

Re: "yes it does seem contradictory to my stated goal on the surface, but underneath it really does have a certain logic."

Can you spell out that logic for me, because either there's an unstated assumption I'm missing, or you haven't addressed the contradiction between the policy you advocate and your ideal political structure (or ideal absence thereof), but rather have only said that others aren't ready for your ideal. If you could have your ideal, whether now or later, wouldn't anarchy mean the opposite of the kind of healthcare system you (apparently) feel is needed and which, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are passionately advocating? Saying that others are not ready for your ideal doesn't address this (apparent) contradiction, unless you think that under your prefered political scenario, some alternative solution would emerge, making your policy preference under the current political system unnecessary and inferior (and that's where perhaps there's an unstated assumption between the lines of your comment).

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My 2 cents

having read about anarchism at length and with a very charitable spirit, the contradiction is there. It just doesn't add up.

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Well, your "2 cents" are

Well, your "2 cents" are coinage created by the government, so you're obviously biased.

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Gee, didn't you know ...

John maintains his own monetary system and issues his own coinage!  :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Well, if I must explain the

Well, if I must explain the premise of my joke, I presume that one offering "two cents" is offering two pennies minted by an arm of the U.S. Government.

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OK,

How 'bout

My quick and passing opinion on the matter.....

Better?

:)

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That and a dime will get you

That and a dime will get you a cup of coffee, so I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that you're being penny wise and pound foolish ;)

(no intended meaning by any of that; just pure silliness)

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pretty much

:)

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Obviously...

and why is my retort not a direct counter to that?  It was just a joke.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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M'kay

I'm assuming that's a joke.....??

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of course

of course

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On another note,

even the extreme Rothbardian view, which we can call "anarcho-capitalism, doesn't agree with the central tenets of simple anarchism.

At least on the Rothbardian Anarcho-Capitalist view, we can honestly say that it adds up....in a general sorta way....meaning that it broadly realistic, makes sense and is coherent. From there, there are a plethora of reasons for not agreeing with it if one is so inclined it because of a dislike of it due to priorities or goals. Anarchism, OTOH, lacks that coherency, IMHO. There are too many leaps of faith that have no answers and contradict eachother...mind you....neither have a government in their framework. Anarcho-capitalism is theoretically possible in ways that Anarchism is not because AC doesn't require unrealistic preconditions of the people involved while simple A does.

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Hrrrm.

I thought I did spell it out. Apparently, not very well.

Can you spell out that logic for me, because either there's an unstated assumption I'm missing, or you haven't addressed the contradiction between the policy you advocate and your ideal political structure (or ideal absence thereof), but rather have only said that others aren't ready for your ideal.

The policy I am advocating is a stop gap. We aren't going to have anarchism now, tomorrow, or in my lifetime, and so I have to select from the available options. Of the available options I am advocating the one I think does the most good and the least harm.

I would like to hope someday anarchism is an option, but that's just not realistic now.

If you could have your ideal, whether now or later, wouldn't anarchy mean the opposite of the kind of healthcare system you (apparently) feel is needed and which, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are passionately advocating?

Oh, certainly. Advocating for something under these circumstances does not mean I am saying it is the ultimate solution for any eventuality.

Saying that others are not ready for your ideal doesn't address this (apparent) contradiction, unless you think that under your prefered political scenario, some alternative solution would emerge, making your policy preference under the current political system unnecessary and inferior (and that's where perhaps there's an unstated assumption between the lines of your comment).

Ah, I see the hang up.

The issue is not that under anarchism there would be some new solution but that we are talking about a radically different way of life. Healthcare policy is a meaningless term when there are no governments, no companies, no bureaucrats. We have policies because we have huge institutions and we need to give them philosophical and legal guidance as to how they are to act.

That's just not the case in anarchy. When you have no institution there is no need to set policies and so the issue becomes moot.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I get you :-)

I don't see what is so hard to understand. Even Ron Paul is for incremental reform. He's not going to immediately fire everyone in the IRS if he ever became president.

Sometimes you have to be pragmatic enough to temporarily abandon ideology in order to bring about needed reform. The only problem is that you can't stay in "incremental reform" mode for too long, or else you stay there. See USSR, Cuba for examples.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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He's also not an anarchist

at heart, on a theoretical level, he's something of an anarcho-capitalist....but not totally.

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Nope.

Stalinist anarchist is my assessment.  Anarchy through governmental fiat!

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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If you;re talking about Paul

no, he really is somewhat of an anarcho-capitalist....at heart.

On a more pragmatic and realistic level, he's simply cannot be.

But if you're kidding, then disregard. :)

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Allow me to translate....

GR is referring to Tlaloc. John is referring to Paul.

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No, sorry.

I was referring to Tlaloc.

Now that I am thinking about it, where do you think the anarchists really do stand on the topic of big government run universal, single-payer healthcare?  :) 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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That's hard to answer

The basic tenets for commercial exchange strike me as incoherent.

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are you calling tlaloc an AINO?

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LOL !

LOL !

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:) Would I do that? You decide.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I'm still not seeing an

I'm still not seeing an explanation. Let me try again by putting it this way:

1) In your ideal political scenario (anarchism), not only would there NOT be the type of healthcare availability you are apparently advocating (i.e., assurance of universal healthcare, or at least assurance of an opportunity to obtain insurance coverage), but we'd actually be much FURTHER from it than we are today (most notably with Medicare and Medicaid, as well as state regulations), agree? If not, in the absense of government, how would universal healthcare (or at least opportunity to obtain coverage) be assured?

2) Assuming you agree with #1, are you saying that you prefer this anarchism DESPITE the fact that it would not provide the type of healthcare availability (or at least insurance availability) that you badly want -- and would move us even further from it?

3) Are you saying that (1) you want anarchy AND (2) you want assurance of universal healthcare (or of insurance availibility), AND (3) the only way #2 can be provided is via government? If yes, isn't that a role and level of government that is antithetical to anarchism?

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Let me change to letters in

Let me change to letters in my question #3 for clarity and for reference:

3) Are you saying that (a) you want anarchy AND (b) you want assurance of universal healthcare (or of insurance availibility), AND (c) the only way "b" can be provided is via government? If yes, isn't that a role and level of government that is antithetical to anarchism?

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I think answering this

will answer the earlier issues (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

3) Are you saying that (a) you want anarchy AND (b) you want assurance of universal healthcare (or of insurance availibility), AND (c) the only way "b" can be provided is via government? If yes, isn't that a role and level of government that is antithetical to anarchism?

You mention later "ultimate" goals, and that's a useful way to look at things. Universal healthcare is *not* my ultimate goal. It is the best case for the given situation. It is not a step towards anarchism either, it is merely the best way to organize our healthcare resources during this period.

I want universal health care now, because right now it is for the best. At some future point I'd like for people to embrace anarchism because I believe it will be a lot better for them as human beings. At that point universal health care will not be a viable solution (for one thing there will be no state to provide/arrange it).

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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So you are saying "Yes" to

So you are saying "Yes" to my questions #1 and #2, correct? (i.e, that universal healthcare does not fit with anarchism and that you nevertheless prefer anarchism despite the fact that universal healthcare will not exist under that scenario.)

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Correct. -nt.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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ok. Got it. So it seems,

ok. Got it. So it seems, then, that as passionately as you feel about ensuring universal healthcare (or at least universally available, affordable insurance), you consider the benefits of anarchism in other areas to outweigh that disadvantage in healthcare, even if that disadvantage means moving even further away (and substantially so) than we are today from the healthcare situation you would like to see, correct?

And if so, have you considered just how different an anarchy scenario would be from your ideal healthcare scenario? NO more Medicare for the elderly, NO more Medicaid for the poor, COMPLETELY unregulated insurers free to, say require DNA tests to determine health risks and rejecting applications on that basis or denying coverage for whatever reason and whenever they choose (as long as they design the policies accordingly) -- oh and no income-related safety net for those folks, either. You've written eloquently and powerfully about your own experience, so I assume you can envision and consider what would happen to all those people. What would happen to a poor 80 year-old woman from a poor family who doesn't have nearly enough money to pay for the medication without which she'll quickly die a painful death? What would happen to a poor child? What would happen to someone with HIV who who was kicked off his insurance by his unregulated insurer and can't afford medication to prevent/delay AIDS? Now multiply all of the above (and more) by many millions. Unless you just assume that private philanthropy will always provide, which would be a pretty big assumption, the above is a pretty huge drawback, right?

So I'm kinda perplexed that someone who has experienced what you have (your diary) and who seems to feel so strongly about the need for universal healthcare (or universally available affordable insurance), would advocate a political system (or lack thereof) that would bring experiences like his -- and, I must say, even worse -- to many millions of people.

Do you agree with my characterization above, and if so, what are the benefits of anarchism that are so great that they outweigh what I have to think you consider this huge drawback on healthcare??

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There are a lot of potential options

And if so, have you considered just how different an anarchy scenario would be from your ideal healthcare scenario? NO more Medicare for the elderly, NO more Medicaid for the poor, COMPLETELY unregulated insurers free to, say require DNA tests to determine health risks and rejecting applications on that basis or denying coverage for whatever reason and whenever they choose (as long as they design the policies accordingly) -- oh and no income-related safety net for those folks, either.

I think you are missing somethin here. There wouldn't be any unregulated insurers because there wouldn't be any insurance companies. There wouldn't be income-related safety nets because there wouldn;t be income.

When I said anarchism was a radical break from current life I wasn't just whistling dixie. :)

So you might well ask what there would be. The problem is that there isn't one answer. One possibility is what's known as primitivism. The name kind of speaks for itself as it represents a life style such as individuals or small social groups can sustain without large infrastructure.

That's not my preference, by any means. Instead what I'd like to see is, while people are slowly dismantling the aparatus of authority, is a focus on technology that is optimized to be simple to operate, manufacture, and repair. I gave an example of this here. I believe that a very pleasant sustainable technological base could be created which could be maintained without extensive infrastructure and without overarching authorities.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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How do you stop such companies from forming?

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There's a reason I say anarchism

is very very different from any other system of social organization. All others are formed on the basis of force used to compell the individual to behave in some manner, whether it's soviet gulags or libertarian restitution. That doesn't exist in the anarchism I'm talking about.

It doesn't force anything because there is no one to do the forcing, or if there is then what they push quite simply can't be anarchism.

This anarchism doesn't exist because we compell people to be part of it but because they choose to be. They either choose to be and it is, or they choose not, and it isn't. Forming a company (in any modern sense of the term) would be choosing "not."

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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So again,

How do you stop such companies from forming?

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You don't *stop* them from forming.

There will be no companies in the kind of anarchism I suggest, not because anyone prevents people from forming the companies, but because if people choose to form companies then it isn't actually anarchism after all.

By making that choice they are implicitly rejecting anarchism.

It's a syllogism. Anarchism is the lack of authority structures, if people make an authority structure this isn't anarchism.

Again, the only way this anarchism works if if people choose it. If they don't want, it there's no way to push it on them because the very act of pushing it negates it.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Is your concept of anarchism

Is your concept of anarchism like religion in society: Just as some people in a society are Christians, some Jews, some atheists, etc., some people in a society are living in anarchy and some -- their neighbors, let's say -- are not?

Or are you saying anarchy would exist if everyone in the village (or whatever) would agree and commit to (by vote or by voting with their feet if they don't like it) anarchy (and therefore won't form a company within that village, and if they did they'd be run out of town on a rail by the townsfolk)?

The concept as you've presented it so far (on this thread, that is) is quite murky to me. Maybe you could spell it out in more concrete (less abstract) terms. How would it be formed, what would it be with regard to activities that would not be part of it, what would happen if someone chooses to engage in one of those activities (e.g., setting up a business, hiring people, serving customers, etc., if that's something you're saying doesn't fit), etc.

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:)

well we're getting into some of the more fiddely bits but if you wanna go there...

In theory each of us can simply choose anarchism right now. But there will of course be repercussions. The society around you will not take kindly to you ignore the dictates.

When talking about anarchism, then, I am talking about a movement of the mass if not all of humanity, at least within a region to being anarchists such that the overarching society that would punish you or I simply no longer exists.

Theoretically you could have an organized state side by side with a region of anarchists. Practically speaking though sooner or later the state is almost surely going to interfere in one way or another. That's less than ideal (although it does not compromise the anarchy itself).

Damn, I'm not being very clear here. Let me write a diary on it when I'm more focused (tonight or tomorrow). There's a particular allusion I've found to be somewhat effective in getting the point across.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Fair enough. I'll await your

Fair enough. I'll await your diary. Just please be sure to address in concrete terms (please stay away from vague abstractions) the kind of questions I asked upthread (what it is, how it's actively formed or otherwise comes into existence, what activities do not "fit", what happens if someone chooses to engage in one of those activities, etc.). And if you don't want it to be too time consuming (and/or potentially confusing) you might want to just describe your ideal type of anarchy rather than getting into all the comparative stuff among the various types of anarchy (perhaps just using footnotes to describe variations on particular points). Just a suggestion.

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this is but one of the reasons it makes no sense

that is just simply an impossible precondition now and forever. It ignores far too much reality. And the implications of who chooses to do what in a voluntary manner to contribute society's needs makes this impossible to coordinate.

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Maybe.

You'll notice that I've never said anarchy is inevitable or even likely. Quite the contrary I find it very likely that we'll continue as we have these last 10 millenia, in ignorance of the thousand millenia that proceeded them.

Then again, maybe it just seems impossible because we are products of society. Victims of abuse tend to be abusers. Products of society tend to think they need society. And the cycles perpetuate themselves.

Don't you sometimes worry that a nanny state government encourages further dependence on the government itself? What then does that say about the very first government and our life before the great social compacts?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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you're asking the wrong person

Don't you sometimes worry that a nanny state government encourages further dependence on the government itself? What then does that say about the very first government and our life before the great social compacts?

Like, duh!!!

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Exactly

so if you believe that dependence on government can be addictive then isn't your belief that people can't choose to go "straight" or "clean" simply a function of your own addiction?

If everyone in the world was an alcoholic it'd be easy to dismiss out of hand that sobriety was possible. But it only requires the choice (and the will to stick to that choice).

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Excuse me?

At the risk of getting side tracked, your point is moot. People, by their very human nature...now...100 years....1000 years ago....or forever into the future...could not live as you suggest.

You are waiting for everyone to want to live by your vision. If but one person wants to live by his accord, he cannot. It's not as free as you think. Everyone has to be willing to cooperate with no incentives. Anarchism, as you describe, cannot allow people to truly self organize as they see fit.

Please, don't misunderstand me. I get it. I really do. I'm not missing anything. I tried to like it. It simply doesn't wash. We could live without government. It's possible...but it would be anarcho-capitalism. It is total freedom to self organize as people see fit. It is the epitomy of totally free human self-organization.

Granted, I don't think we need that extreme version. Minarchism could work just fine

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+3

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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+3?? What's missing?

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See the scale in my signature. :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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You aren't a student of history

As I not so subtly tried to point people have already lived in a manner that is similar to what i suggest. In fact the vast majority of the human race's existance society did not exist in any form we no think of it. Homo Sapiens Sapiens is at least 200,000 years old. The first organized societies only originated 10,000 years ago. Do the math.

So what you claim could not possible happen ever ever ever has in fact already happenend and is the norm for our species.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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OK. I'm sorry

I didn't consider the hunter gatherer phase of primitive early man....where nearly 100% of man's time was devoted to sheer survival. I won't even touch this one.

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c'mon, don't be a wuss.

c'mon, don't be a wuss. Nothin' wrong with goin' back to the good ol' days of huntin', gatherin', and invadin' the other guys' caves and stealing their females. Gotta be some kinda 1984 totalitarian authoritarian commie fascist to have a problem with that. Wait, I kinda got lost between accusing you of lacking a desire for liberty and accusing you of lacking a Y chromosome. Either way, point it, we gotta get back to our roots, man.

;)

(gotta put the smiley so everyone knows I'm kidding)

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Umm, I just HATE to disagree with you ...

and burst your bubble like this but you are completely off your rocker on this one.

You don't think there were power structures (i.e. pecking orders) in primative man? Hogwash. Or is it that you don't believe that primative man lived in social groups then? Hogwash.

All of today's primates exhibit social orders which implies power structures which by your definition implies NOT anarchism. Hell, even the chickens have pecking orders! :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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ROFL

Don't you sometimes worry that a nanny state government encourages
further dependence on the government itself? What then does that say
about the very first government and our life before the great social
compacts?

Is it just me or is there a huge irony here where a self-professed anarchist is asking this of a libertarian in the context of the anarchist promoting government run universal healthcare?

Universal healthcare ... is the not a better poster child for a nanny state program that fosters dependence on the government?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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tell me about it. :)

My eyes were the size of grapefruits.

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I am curious ...

How do big decisions get made in your anarchic eutopia?  Things like what to produce?  What research to perform? Who gets access to the scarce resources which are required for conflicting societal needs?  That sort of stuff.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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While my first inclination

While my first inclination is to stop and just to back away slowly (sorry for the snark, but I'm kinda gettin' a feelin' I'm gonna turn around and see Rod Serling), I'd like to point out that you're missing -- or at least not responding to -- my point/question. To restate more briefly:
1) Have you thought through the consequences (the impact on people) of this scenario with regard to healthcare?
2) Do you agree that there would be enormous incremental suffering (from a health perspective) by millions of people under this extreme scenario, as illustrated by my examples? And if not, how not?
3) If "yes" to both, and in light of what I assume (from your diary) is an ability on your part to emphathize and sympathize with the people who would experience this suffering, why do prefer this scenario? I ask partly rhetorically and partly inquisitively, what are the benefits of anarchism that are so incredibly great as to outweigh the aforementioned harm?

Please directly answer all three questions above. Broad philisophical statements and neat ideas are great, but please answer those central questions.

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Fair enough

a lot of people get that feeling. What I'm talking about is something very very different and it is natural, even healthy to be skeptical of things that we don't have experience with.

(slight aside here- I would argue that we have more experience with anarchism than it seems at first glance, but we can get into that argument another time if you like)

1) Have you thought through the consequences (the impact on people) of this scenario with regard to healthcare?

It's complicated because as I was trying to point out this isn't *one* scenario. It's like saying what are the consequences of liberal democracy to health care? Well, what kind of liberal democracy? It's not like all democracies work the same.

Similarly we have a range of possibilities with this anarchism. If it went a primitivist route then life spans would almost assuredly shorten dramatically. Medicine for various conditions would be unavailable in general and would likely not be known how to be used if available (like penicillin).

Now we could start arguing quality of life issues and whether a long life as a slave is preferable to a short life of freedom, and all that jazz, but since I really don't prefer primitivism (by a long shot) let's just skip that for now. :)

On the other end of the spectrum, what i half jokingly called anarcho-technocracy, if you read the thread I linked to in my last post to you you'll see that brendan and Ender and Specter and I discuss medical technology a fair amount.

2) Do you agree that there would be enormous incremental suffering (from a health perspective) by millions of people under this extreme scenario, as illustrated by my examples? And if not, how not?

Did the above explain this or should I get into it more?
(I do not agree that there *has* to be an increase in suffering by moving to anarchism, I do agree it is certainly a *possibility*)

3) If "yes" to both,

The answer to 2 was a qualified "no" so I'll take this one as answered.

Please directly answer all three questions above.

did that answer the question for you?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I only scanned your

I only scanned your technology diary and a couple of the comments, but how about this: How about you just answer my question (or point me to a specific comment on that thread that answers it) instead of directing me to a thread with lot of detail? It seems that you are suggesting that it's reasonably possible that the answer to my question #2 is "No", which brings us to "How so?" So just give me the brief bottom line to whatever your contention is: How will this suffering be avoided under some form of anarchism (with no Medicare, no Medicaid, no insurance regulation or even insurance at all, etc.)?

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Sorry, I missed this comment earilier

The point of the anarcho-technocracy thread is that our current technology infrastructure is optimized in a certain way, and yet we could choose to optimize it along other lines. If we chose to optimize it for simplicity then it is possible, maybe even likely, that we can develop technology that is not as efficient as what we have no but which can be operated and maintained by laymen without access to massive infrastructure.

In other words, what if the majority of common ailments- everything from headaches to an inflamed appendix could be treated with something no more complicated to use and maintain than a first aid kit? Why then there'd be little need for a huge medical infrastructure. Most health care would be routine and practiced within the family or social group, with special knowledge only required for more esoteric issues. In that situation the lack of medicaid is not a problem.

people only need medicaid because medical care is expensive. If medical care becomes simple and affordable then it ceases to be useful, and losing it is not a bug but a feature.

Anarchism only means degraded technology if we insist on a technology infrastructure that values potency over simplicity, at any cost.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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No offense, but I'm trying

No offense, but I'm trying to decide whether to file that under "Wishful Thinking" or "Self-Delusion". While I must admit I haven't read your discussion elswhere of that theory, I'll have to ask your forgiveness for dismissing it outright as just plain silly. And what I'm calling silly is not the contention that some benefits could be gained by spreading certain types of medical technology and/or making medical technologies/treatments/etc. more affordable, etc., but the contention that such an approach could prevent the enormous suffering that would occur if we pulled the plug on all the institutional ways that people are protected by collective resources and rules (e.g., Medicare, Medicaid, insurance regulation -- or even health insurance AT ALL! -- along with all other protections from government and other institutions. If you'll excuse me now, I hear Mr. Serling starting one of his opening narrations, which means it's probably time for me to slowly and carefully back away from this exchange.

For whatever it's worth, some great ideas probably originate from people with utterly unrealistic views.

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Isn't the shorter version

that you don't agree with anarchism in general?

I mean, all these arguments in favor of collective resources apply across the board -- military, scientific, medical, educational, economic.

You need a very different type of society to imagine radical decentralization working. If you can't see that society as feasible or desirable then I don't suppose you'd agree with any expression of anarchism.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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I don't know whether or not

I don't know whether or not you read through my dialogue with Tlaloc, but we were discussing the particular repercussions of anarchy on healthcare (and in turn, of course, on health), so that's what I was addressing.

As for whether or not the view I expressed on that particular aspect of anarchy necessarily reflect an overall view of anarchy, I'm not sure, but it IS also my belief that almost all of us would be far worse off under anarchy.

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Isn't anarchy the self interest appeal

that some Republicans have tapped into for so many years.

The government is dangerous and you can do it better on your own.

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Not in Tlaloc's view of anarchy.

There you have no corporations or greed.   No one wants to exploit the little children either.

He does agree with the "government is dangerous" part, though. 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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No, what the GOP has wanted

is essentially libertarianism: government bad, corporations good!

As opposed to communism: corporations bad, government good!

Whereas anarchism would be: both bad! Hence why I say that libertarians and communists each see half of the problem, which is why their olutions never fix anything. They can't solve a problem they don't really understand.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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A good way to put it, actually.

But speaking of solving problems, why won't you tell us how the anarchists (your variety) solve the "not enough potable water to sustain y people" problem?  Seriously.  Under your vision of anarchism how would that problem be addressed?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I guess the anarchists would be clueless.

Tlaloc seems to be completely without a response here.  Big surprise.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Cookie

You won an Internet debate.

Here is your cookie.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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that's not accurate at all

it's not about corporations being good or bad. Way off.

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Some corporations

are a form of centralized global power.

A lot of money and power in the hands of the few, with the abilitiy to stifle individual liberty.

I don't see how that is terribly different that a centralized govt, with a lot of money and power in the hands of the few.

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That's not the point.

The corporate power you speak of is a product of government in many forms.

Wat you fear is a product of very institution you think is the weapon against it. It's a systemic flaw in the flaw in the government's power that cannot be changed with more government.

Some corporations are form of centralized global power

That is a sophism and a platitude. It sounds good and gives a sense of reassurance that the world works the way the you think it does but it shows a blind spot to the anatomy of whatever power they have. They are not as powerful as you think and would be even less powerful without big government.

Remember this diary about Google ?

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Loosely defined, I would say

that the GOP is in fact in a state of anarchy.

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I wouldn't

You can't get loose enough for that to be even a little true.

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No not anarchy

the GOP is in chaos. Those are not the same thing at all.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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fine line to me

There is selfish anarchy, me-me-me mine...... chaos.

Then there is selfless anarchy motivated by a kindness, that values a civilized society.

I would say motivation matters.

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I'm not saying the two can't overlap

of course they can, but they are two different thing. Anarchy means "without leaders." Chaos means "with out order." It is very possible to have an orderly anarchy. It is also possible to have a highly heirarchical system without order- indeed that;s what the GOP is right now.

The GOP has no shortage of leaders- Dobson, Limbaugh, Kristol, Coulter, and on and on. The problem for the GOP is not a lack of leaders (anarchy), but the fact that those leaders want disparate things and are unable or unwilling to compromise (chaos).

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Informal fallacy

defined .

By including an unstated co-premise, most deductive informal fallacies are actually valid, with the hidden co-premise false, making the argument unsound.

See Argumentation Theory for more info.

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*shrug*

I'm happy to answer your questions, or to debate the merits with you if you like. At the end of the day, though, I'm not heavily invested in convincing anyone.

Cheers.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I admire your good nature in

I admire your good nature in response to my snark. Impressive.

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2c

I've read a lot on anarchism, and I think it is just like communism:

Really good on paper, but it'll never happen.

We might get there someday, but not in my lifetime, and I don't even think in this century.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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voluntary communism in practice

is one common version.

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That's not terribly different than how I see it

The only thing you really need to add to get to my position is a belief that any other system leads to slow decay.

Hence I'm left to hope for the unlikely and possibly unworkable while watching the self-destructive.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Reminds me of this Woody

Reminds me of this Woody Allen scene from Play It Again Sam, in an art museum:

Allen: That's quite a lovely Jackson Pollock, isn't it?

Woman: Yes, it is.

Allen: What does it say to you?

Woman: It restates the negativeness of the universe. The hideous lonely emptiness of existence. Nothingness. The predicament of man forced to live in a barren, godless eternity like a tiny flame flickering in an immense void with nothing but waste, horror, and degradation, forming a useless, bleak straitjacket in a black, absurd cosmos.

Allen: What are you doing Saturday night?

Woman: Committing suicide.

Allen: What about Friday night?

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Actually, I had forgotten

Actually, I had forgotten what that girl looked like. Now that I'm reminded (below), I must admit I probably would have had the same follow-up question!

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That rationale when studied even just a little deeply

completely falls apart on so many levels of social, political and economic philosophy.

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I'm being too hard on Tlaloc.

He truly is an innovator in his own way.  There aren't too many Anarchists that would actually see big government programs as a stepping stone to Anarchy, right?  That's called thinking outside of the box!

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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well, what I'm trying to

well, what I'm trying to find out (per my questions above) is how he reconciles that ultimate political goal with what I assume are his ultimate (not stepping stone) healthcare goals: assurance of universal healthcare or at least assurance of affordable insurance for all, unless anarchism will somehow provide those assurances without government (and if so, how) or would somehow eliminate the need for such an outcome (and if so, how).

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All very reasonable questions and observations.

It is these types of observations which have perplexed so many of us for so long.

Perhaps Anarchism just doesn't mean what he thinks it means?  Inconceivable.  :)

(Apologies to the Princess Bride) 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Although I admit I'm

Although I admit I'm essentially ignorant on anarchism, let me just speculate nevertheless that "anarchist" may just be a synonym for "really pissed off guy" and "anarchism" just a synonym for "I'M MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!"

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Yep.

Everything Sucks.

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True for many

There are plenty of poseur anarchists. People who like the term because they think it's sexy or whom view it as personal license to do whatever they want. And there are plenty of people who are simply angry and use anarchist ideology as a vehicle. The Black Block is a good example of the latter. I have no patience with any of those types.

One thing to learn is that there are at least as many different types of anarchism as there are real anarchists. You can't really draw too much inference from the name. The variety between anarchists is orders of magnitude larger than the differences between "liberals" or "conservatives" or "communists" or "libertarians." All of those philosophies are actively shaped by belief in certain tenets. The only unifying element among anarchists is a rejection of authority but even this varies greatly. The reasons for the rejection are manifold and even what precisely is being rejected differs. Some anarchists are concerned with authority invested in people (authority figures). I take a broader view of all authority structures being counterproductive.

Anyway I gave you the link earlier to a synthesis of a bunch of my earlier posts on anarchism. If the topic interests you feel free to read it and ask any questions that come to mind. Just know that it tells you next to nothing about any other anarchist you might meet.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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It is not that unique

I'll say that much. I've seen this blurry logic before.

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Anarcho-pragmatism

My turn to delve into the mind of Tlaloc. :)

My take is this: In a theoretical future where mankind has developed to the point where individuals are truly responsible and enlightened entities, anarchism is the preferred state. But in the meantime, government is the hedge against the baser instincts of the unenlightened populace. A free market in today's world is overly influenced by individual greed, so the government is needed to put some checks on that. 

In the ideal anarchy of the future, health care will pretty much take care of itself, as enlightened people will naturally help out anyone who needs it. Today, we need a government to do that. 

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Not bad. -nt.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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I don't buy it

in any form. Like I said, it's not realistic and and has lots of loose ends. It's like Space Shuttle Columbia's chassis...it's just breaks apart under friction.

Like I said, I've read up on it in various forms and they reject basic tenets that are needed for society to self-organize in a sustainable way. It just doesn't add up.

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Pfft.

While I agree this is probably what Tlaloc means/desires it is a nonsensical pipe dream which completely ignores human nature and is completely ego-centric.  I have no doubt that his definition of "enlightened" entails agreeing with him.  True anarchism would have no such restriction.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Keep going,

it's gets much crazier. And I don't say that as a product of an un-anarchic society which fogs my mind to the wonders of anarchism. I say this as a libertarian who sees the elements to have a truly free and voluntary-based society (libertarians can argue of the need for some government) as missing from anarchism. My stance is "Yeah, it would be great, but no dice".

The closest thing that is at least plausible is anarcho-capitalism which is the Rothbardian vision. It was his final vision late in life after he completely rationalized the elimination of any state by totally privatizing everything....courts, military...the whole kit and kaboodle. Don't like it? Fine. I'm not crazy about it either. But at least it is LOGICAL and theoretically PLAUSIBLE without worrying about any preconditions of human behavior...it could work RIGHT NOW with the people we have. Whether you agree with it in terms of tastes values, again, is another matter.

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Similar situation

Thanks for writing an eloquent and personal story about this topic. I am sad to see that the comment thread delved so quickly into the merits of anarchism and your consistency as an anarchist. For what it's worth, I share many of the same views as you since I am facing a tough circumstance at the moment also.

As some of you know, I have two sons, a two year-old and a seven moth old. I work full time as an instructor at a major university, but I am fairly low on the academic ladder. Although I work a few odd jobs in the summer and during winter break, they are rather low-paying also since I cannot state a commitment for any significant duration.

My wife is a stay at home mother for the most part. She is also employed as a doula and lactation consultant, but, again, her clients are few since she cannot make long commitments because of our children. We've made the decision that my wife finding other employment is rather useless since most of what she would make would go to paying for child-care, so she might as well just pick up clients where she can and stay with the kids the rest of the time until they are in school.

Together we bring in about $35,000 a year. We are what Elayne Clift calls "the invisible class, " since we make too much to qualify for most social programs, but do not make enough to afford health-care, our own house, etc. We live rather modestly and cut as many corners as we can with expenses, yet we still live week to week, paycheck to paycheck.

To the point, our sons recently had CHP+ (a variant of the SCHP program that Bush vetoed twice) through our state. This plan is specifically designed to help those that make too much to qualify for medicaid but cannot afford other insurance plans. (Note: I received insurance for the first time in many years through my employment this August, but adding my wife costs us $350 extra each month. Putting my kids on my plan would cost an extra $1,000 a month, something we can in no way afford.) We've used CHP+ sparingly believing that those who need it more should benefit from these resources. Our sons' enrollment plan expired as of February 1, so we thought we would bring him in for a final well-check a few weeks ago.

It turns out that during this latest visit, we discovered my two year-old son has a condition which increases his chance of having testicular cancer and infertility problems if this problem is not remedied shortly before his first birthday (yes, that was a year ago). The doctors we've seen did not catch this condition until now, so he needs to have this surgery immediately to cut these risks. Our speedy medical profession (I see talk about how ours is so fast in comparison to these countries with socialized medicine above) can't see him for a follow-up visit until March 11, and this meeting is just a preliminary meeting with a specialist to set up the surgery at a later date!

Needless to say, our insurance is already gone (as I stated above), so we are looking at paying for this surgery out of pocket. The hospital we are working with has a few financial-aid programs that we are hoping will help, but the chances of us qualifying are slim as these services are heavily used and people with recurring health issues get priority status.

It is a shame that a hardworking young educated couple can’t even afford basic healthcare for their child. I know what you are going through, Tlaloc.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

…………

I'm sorry to hear about that

it's always a special pain when it's a child, your child. My daughter contracted spinal meningitis when she was a couple weeks old. She had to get IVs and numerous spinal taps. It was just terrible. I felt so guilty, like I should have done something different to spare her that. Which is completely illogical and yet hard to suppress when you're the parent.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Thanks

Yes, I feel many things right now. Angry at the world (meaning our government and a society that lets any children fend for themselves). Of course I am scared, and I also feel guilty, especially since this problem should have been caught long ago.

Luckily, we have a very supportive family that we can turn to if things get really tough, but it is still a sad commentary on the state of our treatment for one another.

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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That was

tough to read my friend.

Blessings be with you and I hope all works out somehow.

This certainly makes a strong case for the CHP+ program!

I can only imagine how furious you were that Bush had the gall to veto this program twice. Especially when health care prices are exoribitant.

While all this election glamor is going on....... The Bush Budget give the Finger to Americans just like yourself. As a moral document his budget sounds like Satan's plan.

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Yes,

I was actually at a local rally trying to persuade Musgrave to change her vote shortly before the second vote and had a short interview with the local radio station about the issue.

Yeah, this nation really has its priorities screwed up (especially financially) when we can't budget in our citizens' children's healthcare, yet we will destroy and attempt to rebuild another country for very little reason. How much did that cost us again?

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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+1

I thought I was the only broke cracker here. Welcome to the club!

My fiancée and I are pretty sure we aren't having any kids. They're just too expensive. We can barely afford to keep our house warm as it is. Babies don't like when the heat goes down to 60 every night.

Our babies are our $80,000 in student debt. Hopefully we can kick them out of the house in 10 years. :-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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