Why can't the NHS happen here?
In 1979, the British universal healthcare system was held up as the crown jewel by the nationalized medicine crowd. Now, the system is plagued by rationing and the tough decisions that government has to make for its citizens when we attempt to satisfy infinite desires with finite resources.
A few examples...
One in six doctors have seen patients die and more than half have seen them suffer because of rationing in NHS resources, a study claims.
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Patients
across the country are waiting more than two years for a hearing aid, and up to five years to have old-fashioned equipment replaced by modern technology.
Almost 50,000 people, many of them elderly, are stuck on NHS waiting lists and 10 primary care trusts have admitted to delays of more than a year for patients in need of their first hearing aid.
Doctors are calling for NHS treatment to be withheld from patients who are too old or who lead unhealthy lives.
Smokers, heavy drinkers, the obese and the elderly should be barred from receiving some operations, according to doctors, with most saying the health service cannot afford to provide free care to everyone.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. The problem isn't going to get better without serious reform. Google: "NHS and Rationing." You have stories of people pulling out their own teeth because they can't get in to see a dentist.
So please tell me, why can't it happen here? What in our policy would prevent it from happening? Has any candidate addressed this issue?
_____________________________________________________
Some friendly suggestions before you begin.
1) What the American system is or is not is irrelevant to my question. We all recognize the problems of our system and not too many people would suggest that we should remain with the status quo. For instance, I think Gary Becker has excellent ideas for reform that don't involve us going down the nationalized medicine road.
2) The inclination might be to look at the WHO ratings and say, "Of course we don't want the NHS. Look at France, we should be like them." However, I'd submit that the French will face very similar issues as that system matures. In fact, a French Government Commission has predicted that the system will collapse in 15 years because of the extraordinary costs at which time you'll begin to see the French have to make some really hard decisions. Remember, their tax rates are already high and their revenue streams are likely tapped out. One reason I pulled out the NHS (besides, the fact that it does what I'd predict) is because it's the most mature of the government systems.
Note: That's not to say I don't think it's valid to look at pieces of the French policy (or any country's policy) as to why their approach might mitigate my concerns, but it appears to me that they're going down a similar path--on a delay.
3) It's entirely valid to say that rationing is going to be a fact of life. If so, how would you propose that it work?
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Comments :
You are rigging the issue
No it is extremely relevant. Your entire post is predicated on the idea that we don't want the NHS, which would make sense if the NHS was worse than our current system. The sorry fact is, that for all it's warts and blemishes, the NHS is *far* superior. The UK has greater life expectancy, lower infant mortality , and spends far less money to get it. We'd be lucky to have the NHS by comparison.
Hence, your question is silly from the get-go.
Our per capita GDP is 1.5x France ($46k vs $30k). France spends ~$3k per person for health care. We spend nearly $6k. Right now 10% of France's GDP per capita is going to health care, whereas we're paying 13%.
So given that the french system is cheaper and substantially better how is it a problem?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Alright....
My point by framing it as such....
I think our system is broken and I'd completely overhall it. So really, I have no desire to defend the American system vs. the French system. I think that both are on the wrong path. Actually, I see more that's similar than different. Simply insert "government" for "employee sponsored insurance".
Additionally, I'd point out that it's not a good idea to say that the French health system is good today and it'll be good forever. The defender should have to answer the charge that their system will collapse in 15 years, and pointing out the deficiencies in our flawed system doesn't do that.
They should have to defend why the NHS is doing the poor no favors and why similar rationing won't occur here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7115513.stm
They should have to defend why doctors are proposing that the elderly, smokers, or the obese not be treated.
Seriously, these are legitimate concerns. Don't fall into the trap of "anything's better than what we have" because that's not good enough.
Something tried vs. something new
Alright, so are you suggesting something that has been tried before (in which case let;s see how it did and why) or something new (in which case you need a really good argument to get us to leap blindly)?
Fair enough, but I thought I did defend against the charge. The given reason for the french systems hypothetical collapse is cost. We're a much larger economy, we already pay a third more per person so that kind of scuttles the cost is an issue argument.
Again I dispute your framing. The NHS is doing the poor a favor- the poor are not excluded from life expectancy or infant fatality measures. The UK population as a whole does better than the US population as a whole.
Granted that's troubling. There's going to be some sort of rationing. Rationing of end of life care makes a certain sense. It is the period with the lowest quality of life and the highest costs. There is a definite diminishing return on each dollar spent for end of life treatments. Somewhere a line needs to be drawn. Choosing where to draw it is certainly a damn hard thing to do but we've got to find a way.
Treatment for people with self destructive habits like smoking is a grey area for me. The person voluntarily chose to do something that is known to cause terrible health problems (not *may* but will).
Obesity I think would need to be deconvoluted between genetic and habitual factors. Genetic obesity isn't a person's fault per se. Habitual over eating is.
With both smoking and obesity a lot could probably be accomplished with prentative care, which tends to be very cost effective. Once it is society as a whole paying for unhealthy lifestyles you'll see a big push for that kind of treatment.
I grant that they are serious concerns, and as I said I do not want us to copy the NHS. At the same time it sounds like you are falling into the opposite trap of discarding a system that is superior to what we have just because it isn't perfect.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
The trap...
Here's my attitude on healthcare and why I address it like I do. We should best address cost and access. I don't have serious concerns about quality of care at all. They may cite the studies that say American healthcare stinks, but I don't think American's have concerns over quality either.
We should realize that Access, Price, and Quality are linked. A smart blogger I sometimes read I thought put it best when he said, "Access, Price, Quality. Choose any 2 of the 3." Where our system fails is that we attempt to bring all 3 and fail to deliver on at least 1 and a half (I'll give us half on Access. We do treat the elderly with expensive treatments more often. We generally do provide for expensive treatments more. These are tough decisions that the government sometimes makes for people in state-run systems.)
So those are the problems I see them, here's how I'd address them, in part.
So my solution isn't to look at a Healthcare system and say "That's what I want." It's to very specifically look at what gives rise to our problems and solve for the issue. If I would choose by the "let's be more like country X", I'd probably select one of the medical tourism spots.
Some quick answer on some of your points....
1) Why are per capita US costs higher?
- We subsidize much of the world's healthcare in that new drugs and treatments often come from the US. Additionally, we are much more liberal in making available expensive treatments to the sick or elderly.
2) Why is our life expectancy lower?
-This does not necessarily speak to quality of care. We are much unhealthier as a society in general. We die in more car accidents as well.
For instance, we do pretty well when the statistic is actually related to healthcare....
3. Why are infant mortality rates lower?
Actually, I don't know this one. I've heard that some of it has to do with how we describe infant mortality, but I can't point to any evidence that this is actually the case (especially among developed nations.)
I don't agree.
According to Kaiser (who are bonafide experts when it comes to crappy health care) US health care usually has a 7% overhead for administration. COmparitively the government run Medicare has ~2% administration overhead.
We have driven drug research and production but recently Europe has been catching up fast in that regard. Besides which it's a pittance overall. According to this we spent $55 billion in 2006 n drug research. That works out to $183 per capita. That's less than half the administrative costs above.
I'm not sure what you mean by "more liberal in making available expensive treatments to the sick or elderly." The sick and elderly can get emergency care of course. Anything beyond that they only get if they can pay for it. I find it hard to believe many other countries are more draconian than that (yes some in the Uk were suggesting reducing care for the elderly but it hasn't actually happened yet, right? So it can't explain current cost differences).
I find the argument that American lifestyle is substantially more risky than England's a tad unlikely but alright...
from Johns Hopkins:
So out of five countries we do well on some measures and poorly on others, the main difference being we pay twice as much as they do to do about the same.
The usual explanation I've heard is that we're more likely to try and save very premature babies than other countries, but whether there is any truth to that I don;t know.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Check my math...
When we are spending twice per capita, this margin accounts for 12% of the descrepancy using our France vs. USA figures. There are much larger factors at play.
Are you telling me that
knocking 12% of waste off of a bill is insignificant? I'm not saying there aren't other big things out there, but there is 12% of the problem right there that could be eliminated with no actual downside. It is simply waste right now.
A lot easier to cut fat first and then try to trim the lean.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Insignificant? No.
Somewhat de minimus compared to our larger issues? I think so.
Another potential issue....are they really more efficient or are they doing less (in terms of the services that are provided)? I haven't particularly studied this issue so I won't weight in with an explicit opinion, but some would argue the latter.
Doing less
doesn't explain why our care costs so much more and accomplishes less. Obviously they are getting much more bang for their buck.
As for 12%...
Well, I think if we found 12% of the national deficit that we could eliminate with no downside that you'd be pretty keen on the idea (as would I). When it comes to otherwise making hard choices having a thick slice of fat you can cut like that is pretty welcome.
Or to put it another way- why would you even consider the question of rationing when you still have overhead you could cut without issue?
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
Well, again...
Well, I've already stated why this is overstated if not an outright fabrication (in terms of quality of healthcare.) When you consider the level of medical innovation in this country, your statement above is far from fact.
Because we're not actually addressing the problems of the system. You're simply shifting the cost from private insurance to government. The French solution does very little for us besides this 12% (in comparison to the issues I'm attempting to address elsewhere in this thread). Additionally, what externalities will we face? Does it affect the medical innovation that occurs in this country?
Beyond that, when people are literally dying while waiting for care, I think it's an issue that must be addressed. FWIW, I appreciate that you did that elsewhere.
Stated, yes. Proved, no.
You stated it and gave one specific statistic to support it. I gave an example of some 21 measures where the US did middling, and that was only compared to four other countries, of which some of the best health care systems were not represented.
In other words I think you really need to further support this assertion, before it can be taken as given.
How much medical innovation is that? And how does it compare to Europe or Japan?
See, I think that does in fact address the major problem facing the system. Obviously I know your diagnosis is different.
I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.
How is quality affected by who pays the bill?
This is what I'm getting at. What's the causation? You're simply saying that the UK or whomever has a longer life expectancy and expecting me to buy that it's due to quality of healthcare. In your own wikipedia link, it cites Canadians coming to the US due to quality of care concerns. The opposite doesn't happen. People flee the US system over cost concerns (as I discussed in another diary about medical tourism). They don't do so out of quality of care concerns.
So tell me how the quality changes? Do they have better doctors? I doubt that since the world's best are trained in this country. Do they have better equipment? Doubtful. Do they do more procedures? No, if anything we're overprescribed. Do they have better tactics? It's possible, but it would be better to determine that on a case by case basis rather than a blind faith that one system will bring us better tactics. Preventative care? I don't know, but you can't claim that since we rank highly in this area according to the Commonwealth study.
Overwhelmingly, life expectancy is determined by genetics and lifestyle. The WHO studies are garbage (lest you believe we actually have worse healthcare than Morrocco.) There are plenty of people that have debunked these various methodologies. If you want to waste time and go study by study, we can do that. That's pretty boring though because it would just be me googling the work of other people on the subject. The latest was that Commonwealth study where I think you even agreed with me that the methodology was severely flawed.
So I'll re-ask the simple question I began with: How is quality affected by who pays the bill?
Answer
My wife worked for a time doing medical billing. There are definitely some insurances that are easier to deal with from the doctor's perspective - more timely payment, less hassle, etc. So it is not too difficult to imagine that anyone coming in with one of the "bad" insurance plans might not be as welcome as those coming in with the "good" plans. Also, simpler and more friendly plans lead directly to cost savings (don't have to pay anyone to figure out how to get the money, or deal with massive amounts of paperwork) which could be used to upgrade equipment.
I don't know how this relates to your larger point, but it answers the simple question of how quality is affected by who pays the bill.
We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki
That's a possibility....
Admittedly, I've never heard this argument used. So--are doctors in the US utilizing inferior equipment?
Paper on administrative costs....
http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/resources/pdf/CAHI_Medicare_Admin_Final_Publication.pdf
You are rigging the issue ...
Infant Mortality ... Infant Shmortality!
From wikipedia on infant mortality
:
Gee, its not hard to have a good infant mortality rate when you don't actually count all the dead babies. We could improve our statistics dramatically simply by not counting premature infants as live births like many other countries do. Oops, our bad, we actually try to save the premies as if they actually were babies. What a terrible system we have.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4Dear lord
You mean that the Germans, Swiss, Belgians and French are not trying to save babies which are born at less than 500 grams or shorter than 30 centimeters, or before 26th week of pregnancy?
Sic semper tyrannis
I am sure that they try to save them.
But if they die they don't count them as live births and thus not part of the infant mortality count for their countries. In the US they are counted as such. A fair point on your part concerning a poorly worded comment on mine.
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4I wonder though
how significant these numbers are. In the Infant mortality
it says:
Now the article in USN&WR talks about much smaller babies (500 g), whose numbers are probably less than half of those quoted above which in turn would lower the IMR less than the estimated 22-25%; but even 25% lower IMR would not account for the 6.37 v. 4.08 IMR in the US and Germany respectively.
Sic semper tyrannis
Infant mortality....
on a %-tage basis, yeah it seems like a big diff. But looking at the raw values, the difference between 2.19 deaths per 1000 (0.219%) doesn't seem like it's much to overcome. It may be a mistake to say that Russia's number decreased by 25%, and ours should respond similar because it doesn't take into account the scale.
Maybe I'm wrong there. Just offering it up.
You're most probably correct
My ignorant guess would be that the commie Russia had much greater occurrence of extremely premature births of extremely tiny (500 g or less) babies than the US or Germany for that matter. If in Russia 5 live births out of a 1000 were babies 1000 g. or less. Again I would guess (anyone with better knowledge of statistics correct me please) that babies 500g or less would consist less than a quarter or 1 per 1000. That 1 per 1000 would be my high number for, ehem, more advanced countries like the US or Germany and not reporting those live births by Germans would nowhere near account for over 30% lower IMR in Germany v. the US. Of course it would be much more sensible to work with real numbers , which as far as I can tell don't exist.
And BTW I see a large number of premature births as cause for concern for the health of the breeding stock rather than a celebration "because we're saving babies", which with proper nutrition, access to health and prenatal care, and healthy and stress-free lifestyle might have been carried to the full term in the first place.
Sic semper tyrannis
Good
Save the elderly, I could care less if those people get medical attention. All those health problems are based on controllable lifestyle factors. They knew what they were getting into, now they can deal with the consequences.
People with diseases they had no part in causing get moved to the front of the line. The 3 pack-a-day smoker can have fun suffering from emphysema. And yes, even those with HIV get moved to idle priority.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
wat about the people
who chose not to buy health insurance and run out of money to purchase the life-saving treatment? Should the government pay for the suicide pills for them or should the taxpayers insists that the surviving family members pay for them?
Sic semper tyrannis
Look elsewhere
Private insurance should be available if smokers/drinkers/etc. want it. They already would have NHS-style insurance that covers everything else.
If they don't have enough money, they can turn to charity (something we already do now), family, or the government for that suicide pill if that is their option. The pill can be free of charge. It shouldn't cost much.
I don't mind subsidizing bad luck. I do mind subsidizing obviously bad decisions.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Health versus wealth
Hmmm. You would deny healthcare based on some set of "obviously bad decisions" yet I think you oppose vigorously someone denying other social payments (welfare, student loans, EIC, etc) based on what others might also classify as "obviously bad decisions" such as choosing the wrong major and not being able to find work, not pursuing the proper education or training, not taking available employment, being disinclined to move to where jobs are, having children that one cannot afford to raise, etc.
Good or bad health is a combination of luck, genes, and actions, perhaps moreso than any other "social attribute" one might name. A lifetime smoker may get cancer not from smoking, but from the emissions of the chemical plant next door. Yet it seems you would categorize and dismiss their needs as quickly as a Randian would dismiss the unproductive's.
I find that very interesting.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
And because we like data
I ran across this report today that concludes that about 77% of the risk of obesity is genetically based.
Which makes some sense to me, actually. Prior to our modern times of abundant high-calorie food and very light physical labor loads, genetic makeup which helped obtain, conserve, and efficiently use calories would have been selected for. Now, however, these genes work against us.
And we already have data that demonstrates that smokers actually cost less over their lifetimes than nonsmokers do.
So do we deny healthcare to these groups? I can't see a reasonable way to deny anyone healthcare except on the basis of the efficacy of such care compared to lifespan, if we go to some nationalize heathcare scheme.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
Great stuff
I also wonder if the genetically based thing re: heavier folks is due to just the eating habits that get passed on within the family.
Interesting.
I'm only half stupid
Yep
in a nutshell, we still eat like farmers but live like lords. What that study suggests is that for 3/4 of us, that will cause obesity.
The other quarter can eat the same stuff and live the same life but not get fat.
Now that's a genetic lottery worth winning.
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." --R. Heinlein
Curious ...
what would you do with people who got HIV because of blood transfusions or because they honestly didn't know that their partner had HIV?
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4I'd treat them
Unless they did not have insurance or means to pay. I think I mentioned suicide pills somewhere here...
Sic semper tyrannis
True
The first case is different and is cause for an exception. Documentation from a hospital that made the error would be enough.
The latter isn't. Responsible people make sure they know what they're putting their genitals into, etc.
I never broke the law; I am the law! --
George W. BushJudge DreddI'm listening to...
Well, just to split this hair a bit further then ...
I agree (in principle), but what about the following cases:
(1) The HIV positive partner had taken the HIV test which came back negative because of a fluke or just bad timing (i.e. the test was taken after they had been infected but before the virus was detectable for whatever reason).
(2) The HIV positive partner was asked but lied about their status.
Just trying to refine our moral dilemma here. :)
I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4All of the above is worse here
Hearing aids are not covered by health insurance.
Elderly people in US have Medicare.
Health insurances here will not insure you if you have pre-existing disease.
Many claims are denied or not authorized here in the US.
47M do not have access to health care in the US.
Many people in the US have to pay for their own dentist.
Health Care....
Can't we see it as a National Security issue.
We require school age kids to get immunized so they don't spread disease. That's a security issue, is it not?
If the population is sick, diseased, cancerous, suffering from sugar diabetes and just genrally unhealthy how can you have a strong country.
If you have to go to work sick, then you are putting others at risk.
It would be a huge relief to businesses if they didn't have to pay for health care.
Universal health care overall would be a huge plus to this country..... boositng security and economic productivity. :)
I'm only half stupid