Economic Growth and Limited Resources...with a Little "Logic" from Tim Harford

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Great discussion;

my only criticism - or at least a request for more info, although if the author hasn't done it himself it's probably way too much research for either you or me to dig up on the internet - is that available resources are treated here as a non-functioning variable: that is, the rate of technological development is treated as a fact in itself, without a comparison to availability of resources to work with.

I'm having trouble wording this, so I'll try to give a concrete (but hypothetical) example. Let's say we're talking about arable land for farming. Someone arguing about diminishing resources might point out that we face a steady decline in arable land, both through natural processes (desertification) and human intervention (pollution, use of land for non-farming purposes). You can point to the way technology grows steadily as well, increasing the efficiency for every acre, and thus balancing out the decline in available land. That's a fair point, but if the decrease in availability continues at the same rate, you eventually hit zero: and no amount of technology can change that.

You might argue that the technology will shift to another resource - maybe hydroponic farms - and that by the time arable farmland becomes obsolete (as if that were possible), we wouldn't need it anymore anyway. True, but the level of available freshwater has also been in steady decline...

In other words, even though technology might develop rapidly enough to shift resources, there's also a totality of Resources (capital R) that only decreases (yay entropy!) Unless the technology model is putting us on other planets, I don't see how this problem is solved. Even the most efficient use of every possible local resource leaves us with a net loss. Technology increasingly minimizes that loss, but cannot eliminate it entirely.

(Incidentally, this was part of Hawking's point that the only way the human race can survive is by expansion to other planets. He was mocked for that, but he was right. For other reasons, as well.)

(Also, I use parentheses entirely too often.)

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Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Progress

Technological progress, while it can result in increased resource possibilities and decreased resource use (solar power, energy-efficient appliances), can just as easily result in increased resource use (plasma TVs, Hummers). We are certainly using more resources per capita now than at any time in the past, and I would argue that that is a direct result of economic growth and technological advances. I just don't think there is enough economic incentive to conserve resources until those resources are sufficiently scarce.

I do think that a sustainable, or nearly sustainable*, economy is a possibility, but I don't see market forces alone leading that way, especially with the attitude of "don't worry, we will always find new resources." At least not unless market forces take into account all the actual costs of resource depletion (which I am not sure is even possible, because I do not believe all costs can be measured in dollars).

*A nearly sustainable economy would give us more time to expand to pico's other planets! On that I agree with pico and Hawking - it's the only way humanity will survive and flourish.

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We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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The course that nature takes.....

could also include some superbug that cuts back the population, and therefore increases the resources available to those left behind.

After the Black Plague in Europe, the elite were forced to till their own land to survive. The lush ground of Italy, that had previously been used to harvest only necessary crops for feeding a larger populace, was cultivated with luxury food items, such a sweet crisp apples and the farmers were able to experiment growing many varieties of 'innovative' foods.

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It is the economy, stupid.

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Supply and Demand was still pretty important

The amount of land was the same, but the number of laborers went way down. As a result, the land owners weren't able to get away with the same level of oppression. Another land owner would be happy to offer better working conditions and a higher cut of the proceeds than when there were before.

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Under feudalism?

Another land owner would be happy to offer better working conditions and a higher cut of the proceeds than when there were before.

I think the way it worked the carrot meant basically less stick. With lower number of serfs working the same arable land the landlord was less likely to punish them in a way that would prevent them from performing free labor on his behalf. But surely they'd have to work more to cover all the work that used to be performed by more people. Craftsmen, artisans and merchants whose competitors died in the plague might have benefited from it but all peasants always got was a stick - working for a particular landlord wasn't exactly a choice.

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Sic semper tyrannis

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Not sure if that is true

immediately after the plague started disappating.

I thought the population was decreased so drastically in some areas...... that some poor could just go adopt a farm because so many of them were deserted.

The rich elite were left holding the bag with no laborers.

I also think that the Catholic Church walled itself off from the Plague by sealing out the infected and the well could pay a fee to be safe inside the walls. This is where the Catholics started making money.......!

This is all from memory so I could be way off.

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It is the economy, stupid.

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Serfs could flee

Even under feudalism.

From wikipedia

In Western Europe, the sudden shortage of cheap labour provided an incentive for landlords to compete for peasants with wages and freedoms, an innovation that, some argue, represents the roots of capitalism, and the resulting social upheaval "caused" the Renaissance, and even the Reformation. In many ways the Black Death and its aftermath improved the situation of surviving peasants, notably by the end of the 15th century. In Western Europe, labourers gained more power and were more in demand because of the shortage of labour. In gaining more power, workers following the Black Death often moved away from annual contracts in favour of taking on successive temporary jobs that offered higher wages. Workers such as servants now had the opportunity to leave their current employment to seek better-paying, more attractive positions in areas previous off limits to them.

Another interesting side affect was that untended land could get turned into grazing land, making meat more available (and the higher protein led to a healthier, less stick-able peasantry.)

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innovation depends upon...

First, as a caveat, I doubt that innovation can really be quantified, so I suspect that it is total BS for that guy to claim that it is proportional to population.

Second, as I remember Malthus's analysis, he totally ignored the prospect that technology/capital could increase the efficiency of natural resource use. At least, I think any reasonable model would assume an increase in total productivity as a result of increased population--just that per capita productivity would drop as fewer resources are available per capita.

Finally, I suspect that innovation is more connected to total disposable income than to raw population size. Of course, historically, more people -> more produce -> more disposable income. As long as human populations were expanding into hospitable habitatit (where marginal land is just as good as already settled land) this linear relationship would hold. 

As long as our society has some disposable income for investment in technology/capital, we have hope that it would increase our productivity to account for resource depletion. However, if we ever reach a point where we no longer have disposable income, we can't rely on investments to save our asses.

To summarize, I think this needs to be viewed as a dynamic system with certain tipping points in it, rather than being a simple linear relationship (population -> prosperity) 

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"You have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was
made a man." --Frederick Douglas favicon

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