Thursday Open Thread

Bicyclist sought in Times Square blast - leftist terrorism? :) Good thing no one was hurt.

I am out on vacation starting tonight until Monday the 17th. So I won't be checking in regularly. Have a great Thursday!

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Yesterday Scalia said torture is bad but not unconstitutional.

SC Justice Scalia said several things in a speech he gave at UC Missouri's Hendricks Hall.

"Scalia defendend himself against critics, saying issues such as the use of aggressive interrogation techniques and domestic wiretapping are not expressly outlawed in the Constitution...Of torture, Scalia said: "It’s a bad thing to do. But not everything that is bad is unconstitutional."

Two area's covered in the Constitution directly contradict that view:

1) # Fifth Amendment: forbids trial for a major crime except after indictment by a grand jury; prohibits double jeopardy (repeated trials), except in certain very limited circumstances; forbids punishment without due process of law; and provides that an accused person may not be compelled to testify against themself (this is also known as "Taking the Fifth" or "Pleading the Fifth"). This is regarded as the "rights of the accused" amendment. It also prohibits government from taking private property without "just compensation," the basis of eminent domain in the United States - (ie-you can't torture (punish) someone who hasn't been convicted of a crime.)

That coupled with: # Eighth Amendment: forbids excessive bail or fines, and cruel and unusual punishment. pretty much spell out a Constitutional setting illegalizing torture. But if that isn't enough

2) Article Six establishes the Constitution, and the laws and treaties of the United States made in accordance with it, to be the supreme law of the land, and that "the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the laws or constitutions of any state notwithstanding." The United States ratified the Geneva Convention in 1929 & more specifically the third Geneva Convention in 1949 which specifically states that:

Article 3 describes minimal protections which must be adhered to by all individuals within a signatory's territory during an armed conflict not of an international character (regardless of citizenship or lack thereof): Noncombatants, combatants who have laid down their arms, and combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, including prohibition of outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment. The passing of sentences must also be pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. Article 3's protections exist even if one is not classified as a prisoner of war. Article 3 also states that parties to the internal conflict should endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of GCIII.

And one of our Supreme Court Justices says torture is not unconstitutional. I humbly beg to differ. How this man came to judge others is beyond me.

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Scalia's much more %$#hole than judge

He's primary skill is the ability to make the most ludicrous argument almost sound rational. A skill he has relied upon extensively.

If it weren't for Thomas he'd be the utter clown of the court (athough I suspect Alito may challenge Thomas for his jester's cap).

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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OMG!

He's primary skill is the ability to make the most ludicrous argument almost sound rational.

He IS posting on this forum under a couple of different monikers! OMG!

Sic semper tyrannis

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haha

I am sure a few people feel very flattered now!

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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At least he

recused himself from the case with this comment if the topic ever comes to trial.

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Considering he wouldn't recuse himself

over his personal relationship with Cheney...

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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True

I guess I give the man too much credit.

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Thornburg Mortgage defaults on its lending agreements

They missed a margin call today setting off a chain reaction in its agreements with its lenders.  Its stock has lost another 60% of its value today, down to under $1.50/share, and the company appears to be imminently headed for bankruptcy.  This was a company worth approximately $5 billion as recently as about a year ago.  They were not a subprime lender, concentrating almost exclusively on high-end ARM mortgages to borrowers with excellent credit.  But in an environment where home values have dropped so much that homeowners with good credit and can pay their mortgage are seeing little downside to handing their keys back to the lender in states with "non-recourse" mortgages (California, Florida, and others).  And now there is rumblings about potential changes to bankruptcy laws that would allow judges to adjust principle amounts on primary residences, eliminating a historic privilege that mortgage lenders have enjoyed over other lenders.

It is sad to see Thornbug go down like this.  As I see it, this is not really a problem of their making, they are just caught up in the mess caused by others. 

 

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I have a hard time understanding how ARM lenders

can lose money at all. Yes...I know how really, it just seems so brain dead. Especially when you are concentrating on those folks who actually have really good credit. People like that I had thought would hold the house for several more years till it's value was back up to where they were at least breaking even just so their own credit scores don't take the hit.

Guess I wasn't thinkin all that well, eh?

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Uh Ohh! NRCC has some irregularities in their financial audit

National Republican Campaign Committee Chairman Tom Cole (R-OK) abruptly released a statement about recently discovered irregularities :

"The New York Times this morning, It all began to unravel when Rep. Mike Conaway (R-TX), a CPA, asked to meet with the audit firm that was supposedly checking the NRCC's books, an idea that apparently no one had had for several years. Christopher Ward, then the NRCC's treasurer, finally relented, but then chickened out 30 minutes before and fessed up that there actually hadn't been any audits.

It was ultimately discovered that Ward had been faking the audits since 2003. The Politico, which laid out this general outline of events early last month, reported that Ward had forged everything, including the letterhead...The FBI is currently investigating, and it's not clear yet why Ward was so keen to hide the real numbers. But as the Times reports this morning, the signs are not good. NRCC internal audits since Ward's discovery show that "hundreds of thousands of dollars are missing and presumed stolen." And it gets worse: there are apparently indications that "the financial irregularities might extend beyond the national committee to the campaign funds of individual Republican lawmakers who also worked with Mr. Ward, a longtime party operative."

Doesn't this sound exactly like the Iraqi Provisional Authority or Haliburton (or K&R) billing? With all this in mind, how is it that the Republican Party holds itself to the party of fiscal responsibility? (and I'm not even touching the almost doubled National Debt under the bush43 Admin, nor the $2 Trillion (maybe 3) cost of the Iraq war - wasn't that war supposed to pay for itself?)

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Yeah, the story has been building for a little while

it'll be very interesting to see how it shakes out.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Epic Fail

According to documents obtained by NEWSWEEK, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), the country's national-security agency, last month quietly withdrew statements by alleged Al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah from public papers outlining the case against two alleged terror "sleeper" operatives in Ottawa and Montreal.

The move, which so far has received no public attention, is the latest sign of potential international fallout from the CIA's recent confirmation that it waterboarded a handful of high-profile Al Qaeda suspects in 2002 and 2003. The use of waterboarding and other harsh interrogation techniques were approved by the Bush White House and Justice Department. Waterboarding, which critics charge is a form of torture, involves strapping a suspect to an inclined board and forcing water into his lungs, typically by pouring water through a cloth placed over his nose and mouth.

story

There are many reasons not to torture. For those of us who are ethically challenged, the fact that it makes it much harder to actually prosecute terrorists should be reason enough. Sadly the GOP seems to have made failure in all things a goal.

The White House and Capitol Hill continue to be at odds over the issue: Congress recently approved an intelligence authorization bill that would expressly forbid the CIA from using waterboarding and certain other interrogation methods. Although it says the U.S. government no longer engages in waterboarding, the White House has signaled President Bush will veto the measure because he does not want to tie the agency's hands in the future.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Kellogg Brown & Root, the nation's top Iraq war contractor

and until last year a subsidiary of Halliburton Corp., has avoided paying hundreds of millions of dollars in federal Medicare and Social Security taxes by hiring workers through shell companies based in this tropical tax haven (the Cayman Islands) :

"In addition, the practice enables KBR to avoid paying unemployment taxes in Texas, where the company is registered, amounting to between $20 and $559 per American employee per year, depending on the company's rate of turnover. As a result, workers hired through the Cayman Island companies cannot receive unemployment assistance should they lose their jobs. In interviews with more than a dozen KBR workers registered through the Cayman Islands companies, most said they did not realize that they had been employed by a foreign firm until they arrived in Iraq and were told by their foremen, or until they returned home and applied for unemployment benefits."

More shitty accounting work from K,B & R. Are these guys the new Enron Corp or what? I'll bet that this practice is made illegal under the next administration.

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Leftist "Terrorism"....

..OR, it could be just somebody playing a bad, cowardly prank.

Now if you really want to throw the T-word around, aim it at the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) who decided to burn down people's homes in protest--apparently because the mansions were touted as "green." However, in this PC world you can't call them terrorists; they are, according to the media:

"Radical Environmental Group"
"Anti-Sprawl Activists"

and some outlets, more truthfully use "eco-terrorists." I don't care if the houses were mansions, they don't deserve to be burned down.

And by the way, what's up with these domestic "Liberation Front" groups? They give Leftist Protesters a bad name.

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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Why leftist?

Considering we have no knowledge as to the perpetrator it's pretty insulting to assume that a terrorist would have to be leftist.

The most interesting aspect is the possible connection to previous similar bombings against embassies (English and Mexican if i recall correctly).

As for the ELF- I find it hard to categorize a group that goes to great lengths not to hurt anyone as "terrorists." YMMV.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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GoRight made the same point earlier.

As a liberal, the ELF folks don't represent my beliefs or values.

Calling them leftists is the same as me calling the University slauterers right wing because they used guns to kill people.

ie- I don't believe the nutcases are right or left, just nutcases.

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hmm

Environmentalist movement is left wing ideologically. ELF is on the extreme of the environmentalist movement, just as the abortion clinic bombers are on the extreme of the pro-life movement. One is rightist and one is leftist.

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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I'd bet the ELF folks vote for Nader, not Barack or Hillary.

But you believe what ever you want to believe.

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and Nader can't be described as Leftist?

In my view Leftist is more of a hard Left, not necessarily liberal. Though skymutt's comment below is sensible. :)

"To discuss evil in a manner implying neutrality, is to sanction it." AR

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I've never seen him run as a Democrat, have you?

But then again, with Hillary Democrats are hardly leftists now are they. Kind of like McCain lite.

Nader...leftist.....Nader...Leftist....

NAAAA. Really it's

Nader...asshole....Nader....gignormous ego...

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Agreed

I would say that unless a grop has well developed political and economic beliefs, it is not useful to describe them as left or right on the ideological spectrum.  When principled economic right wingers like Jack Kemp or religious/social right-wingers like Mike Huckabee, both of whom I like and respect, are put in the same "right-wing" pigeonhole with skinheads and abortion clinic bombers, I think that a change in terminology is warranted.  Likewise, as someone who is probably a little left of center, I do not wish to be labeled the same as the criminals who are burning down houses in Seattle.  Anyone single-minded enough to be an eco-terrorist probably does not have a good enough understanding of politics and economics for their views to be coherent anyway.

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Might I also point out

That we don't know yet that ELF is responsible for the Seattle fires. Several high-priced mansions that have been languishing on the market for months burn down. I can think of certain other parties who might be interested in seeing them go away, and sticking up a bedsheet that says ELF on it is a good a way as any to shift the blame.

I'm not saying I believe that this is the case, but as far as I know, ELF has not claimed responsibility for the act. So who knows?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Bush May Fire CENTCOM Chief Adm. Fallon,

Replace With Commander More ‘Pliable’ To War With Iran . I've seen this on three sites this morning. I have yet to link to the Esquire article , but I do know that I admire Admiral Fallon. he has a very tough job to do and has done an outstanding job of bucking political pressure from the Administration.

Calls for an October Surprise scare the crap out of me, especially when it's concerning bush43 & co. They don't care about America. They only care about their own world wide power plays.

Let's hope Adml Fallon stays on through 2/09 at least.

OK - I read the Esquire article at lunch. It rocks! I'll say that both the conservatives and the liberals on board will like it and Admiral Fallon.

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Osama bin Laden said he wanted to bankrupt the US.

Who could have guessed that he got the perfect group running a country to allow him to dangle his carrot before their eyes? And before you all call me on this, I'm referring to both the Democrats and the republicans that have given us the gift.

So what if we could have paid for Social Security completely for the next 50 years with the $2 Trillion dollars we've spent ($3 T estimates by some).

I'll have to give bin Laden credit. He's a lot slier than dubya or Darth.

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Funny pic

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Math

says Hillary can't win. Even if she wins the final 12 states by 20 points each (which is an absurd assumption to begin with), she is still behind in popular delegates. Her only hope would be superdelegates which would disenfranchise and shatter the Democratic party.

The other possibility (and still a far-fetched scenario) is landslides in renewed contests in Florida and Michigan. Maybe in Florida, but I would not count on Michigan.

I think Obama has this one in the bag.

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Ya know, I want to like Hillary.

But is she keeps coming out saying that only she & John McCain have the credentials to be Commander in Chief.....I'll just have to send some trailer trash babes by Bill's office to help him with his "overtime".

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Yes,

"Hold my nose and vote" comes to mind if she were the nominee, but hopefully (and probably) that will not be the situation.

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Even so

Without Obama getting enough delegates to win, she can at the very least leverage her delegates into a VP nod, if she wishes, which I think it's pretty obvious she'd accept, given her comments earlier in the week.  If she just drops out, she has no leverage in that regard.

I think that these two should be our ticket, and what's more, I think they almost need to be our ticket, just to put to bed all the talk about how divided the Democratic Party is.  If we are to be the big tent party that I think we ought to be, we need to reinforce the idea that we fight like hell during our primaries, but once it's over, that fight is forgotten immediately, and we are all on the same team once again.  No grudges, no purges, no sulking.

Intrade is trading Hillary as about a 3:1 underdog to get the nomination right now.  I think that's about fair value.  Obama is a clear favorite, but he does not have this in the bag yet.  The party nominating rules clearly are designed to make someone in Obama's position really work hard to get 50%+1 delegates.  If they wanted it to be a simple matter of "whoever has the most delegates after the primaries wins", then they certainly could have written the rules that way.

Politics ain't beanbag :-)  This is going to be real interesting in the coming weeks. 

 

 

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Uniting the Democrats..but it Takes More

Sure the Democrats would be united if they run together, but doesn't ticket balance still make sense? I know it sounds silly, but whoever comes out on top will either need (a) a moderate Southern or Southwestern Democrat to perhaps put some of the swing states (NM, NV, VA, CO, MO) in play or (b) a general who can bolster their national security credentials against the foreign policy heavy McCain.

You can try to make this about McCain/Bush linkage, but eventually most will realize that Bush is not on the ticket and McCain has a history of not being lockstep with his Party, which will attract independents.

Just kinda nervous about and Obama-Clinton or Clinton-Obama ticket because it's only a "dream" ticket but makes no political sense (neither one gains any real advantages by adding the other to the ticket).

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

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I'm not a big "ticket balance" guy

I'll leave the talk of ticket balance to the pollsters and their spreadsheet and theair maps where they try to figure out how to get exactly 269(?) electoral votes.  I'd rather have two powerhouses on the ticket and blow the other side out in a landslide, make the Republican VP nominee look like Admiral Stockdale :-)  Also, our balanced tickets have lost:  Kerry/Edwards, Gore/Lieberman, Dukakis/Bentsen...  Clinton/Gore was not balanced, two moderate liberals from the mid-south, same age, white males, small-state guys... and they won.  Obama-Clinton is more balanced than Clinton-Gore.  

Don't forget that Hillary helps in Arkansas.  That's a swing state.   

Clinton has pretty good national security cred amongst independents, I think.  If that's an area where you think Obama needs to shore up a hole, he could do worse than Hilalry.  A general as VP looks almost like you're admitting you're weak on national security. 

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Not VP

Assuming Obama's on the top of the ticket, I'd rather see Clinton get something other than the VP position. Supreme Court, maybe? I'd like to see Limbaugh's head explode if that happens. ;)

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Ugh

That's as bad the Nader for SCOTUS suggestion that someone made.  I'm not a big fan of celebrity SCOTUS nominees who haven't seen the inside of a courtroom in two decades.  The Supreme Court should be reserved for the cream of the crop of the legal profession, not big name politicians, who have already foobarred the other two branches of government.

Of course, if you don't like Clinton as VP, there are other fine choices.  I was just looking for a good way to resolve this close nomination race if it goes all the way to the convention.  I would really like an Obama-Hagel ticket-- get a Republican war hero on the ticket, and you totally steal all of McCain's thunder and it is all over, baybee!  Might lose a few fringe left socialist Naderite purity types from the Democratic Party once and for all, but I wouldn't personally lose any sleep over it ;-)

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Hillary would be a good VP for the ticket.

The problen they are starting to face is whether they will be able to pull the knives out of each other's backs.

I don't like how either group has started to run stupid negative. Negative by itself, OK....that's gonna happen any time you try and point out your opponents short comings. But stupid negative is defined as that which gives your eventual opponent in November an assist. Sadly, I've seen it out of both camps. My impression is that Hillary is worse, but that may be balanced out by some of the comments I see on other blogs from the Obamaphiles. They are just plain spoiled little babies when I read them going off about Hillary.

Forrest Gump lives on I guess.

ps- I'm still snickering over that Hillary for SCOTUS comment. It would be so much fun to see all the talking heads up and explode at that. Just like the movie "Scanners" (which pretty much sucked, but the exploding heads is an appropriate comparison).

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Nine Inch Nails

is following in Radiohead's footsteps by releasing the album Ghosts I-IV on-line without the help of corporate labels.

I am not as big of a NIN fan as I was in high school, but I bought it anyway to support them in their (or his/Reznor's) venture. It is just instrumental, so it is not as grating as some of their stuff. I give it a thumbs up. You can get all 36 songs for $5 or download the first 9 for free if you just want to sample it before buying (but some of the best stuff is later in the album). They also have a few deluxe versions for more money, but I doubt anyone here is that big of a fan.

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Slave screams...

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

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How did Reznor sneak

that footage out of Guantanamo? :-)

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Heh,..Trent didn't make the Torture Music Playlist

According to Mother Jones

9 out of the top 20 are on my Itunes playlist. the gubment would have to come up with a new playlist for me, otherwise it could be interpreted as a mere free concert

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.
Learn to swim.
Moms gonna fix it all soon.
Moms comin round to put it back the way it ought to be.

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I suppose three of the nine

on your iTunes are the meow mix song, the Barney theme, and the Sesame street theme. What's that about???

Your comment reminds me of a Cheech and Chong movie (can't remember which) when Cheech (I think) is shown at some lab strapped to a chair and forced to watch a TV screen projecting all kinds of terrifying scenes. He soon gets up and walks out thanking the government agents for the free acid (LSD). I think it was mocking the brainwashing experiments of the '60s.

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Excellent

n/t

Sic semper tyrannis

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In an effort to be civil

I have eased up on the posting a bit, because the only topic on my mind lately is trashing Hillary.

It is the economy, stupid.

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I thought you *were* being civil ;-)

But maybe my standards of civility have sunk too low.

How about we declare a truce on Hillary for a couple weeks? There's no StatesThatMatter™ for several weeks anyway and if I get the urge to fight it out with some Hillary Haters critics, there's waves of them at other sites.

 

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Ya know

If someone had told me a year ago that I would learn to like Hillary I would have punched him in the face.

But she has grown on me. So I'll happily vote for her in November if she is the nominee.

I'll also vote for Obama if he is the nominee.

But the vitriol from Obama supporters is becoming toxic over at DKos.

I have no problem with people trashing Hillary for this or that, that's politics. But the Obama Army at DKos also has to trash anyone who dares to say a kind word about Hillary. It's like gang violence over there. I've read four GBCW diaries already today.

It's truly shameful.

qui tacet consentire

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It is coming from the top

Matt Stoller compared 2 e-mail from Obama and Hillary campaign. You could see the Obama e-mail angering activists on Hillary and being victimized while the Hillary campaign e-mail sounded more like a cheerleader.

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Excerpts from the 2 campaign e-mail

Obama e-mail:

Our projections show the most likely outcome of yesterday's elections will be that Hillary Clinton gained 187 delegates, and we gained 183.

That's a net gain of 4 delegates out of more than 370 delegates available from all the states that voted.

For comparison, that's less than half our net gain of 9 delegates from the District of Columbia alone. It's also less than our net gain of 8 from Nebraska, or 12 from Washington State. And it's considerably less than our net gain of 33 delegates from Georgia.

The task for the Clinton campaign yesterday was clear. In order to have a plausible path to the nomination, they needed to score huge delegate victories and cut into our lead.

They failed.

It's clear, though, that Senator Clinton wants to continue an increasingly desperate, increasingly negative -- and increasingly expensive -- campaign to tear us down.

That's her decision. But it's not stopping John McCain, who clinched the Republican nomination last night, from going on the offensive. He's already made news attacking Barack, and that will only become more frequent in the coming days.

Right now, it's essential for every single supporter of Barack Obama to step up and help fight this two-front battle. In the face of attacks from Hillary Clinton and John McCain, we need to be ready to take them on.

Will you make an online donation of $25 right now?

https://donate.barackobama.com ...

The chatter among pundits may have gotten better for the Clinton campaign after last night, but by failing to cut into our lead, the math -- and their chances of winning -- got considerably worse.

Today, we still have a lead of more than 150 delegates, and there are only 611 pledged delegates left to win in the upcoming contests.

By a week from today, we will have competed in Wyoming and Mississippi. Two more states and 45 more delegates will be off the table.

But if Senator Clinton wants to continue this, let's show that we're ready.

Clinton E-mail:

Did you feel the race shift?
Those last few days before Hillary's big wins, could you feel the difference? The crowds, the energy, the momentum of the whole race seemed to be shifting in Hillary's direction.

That was you.

You fueled Hillary's stunning comeback, and she and I both know that this campaign would not be where it is today without you. You should be incredibly proud of what you have accomplished.

And in the last 24 hours, you did it again, raising an extraordinary $3 million.

We worked too hard to get to this point to do anything except drive towards victory in Pennsylvania and beyond. And doubling the $3 million you just raised -- reaching $6 million in 48 hours -- will make it clear to everyone watching that we're playing to win.

Give Hillary a head start with another $3 million day.

Let me put what you accomplished yesterday in perspective. More than 45,000 of you contributed to Hillary's campaign in the wake of her wins in Texas, Ohio, and Rhode Island.

You didn't just make her comeback possible. You are providing the resources it takes to win big races. We need to hit the ground running in Pennsylvania, and thanks to your commitment to Hillary, we are doing exactly that.......

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Ambivalent

On one hand, I do feel sorry for Hillary (and her supporters). She is a viable candidate and has done wonderful things for the Democratic party and women in general. In slightly differing circumstances (her Iraq vote comes to mind as my biggest drawback to supporting her), she would be a preferable candidate.

There is an easy solution to getting away from the turmoil at Kos if it's become too toxic for you (and the others complaining about Hillary's treatment there): stay away from the site.

I quit going there a few months back save a quick check of the FP once every few days just to see what's going on that I may have missed int the MSM and for C&J. I hardly ever open user diaries or look in the comments section. It is a hard habit to break, but if the site is bringing you down, control the keyboard and mouse through self-discipline so as not to expose yourself to it. If the participation numbers become stagnant or decline, maybe Kos will modify his site to accomodate a wider audience. If not, then let it be the echo chamber it has become and maybe someone will be able to create an alternative site that is more fitting for the GBCW crowd.

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What's shameful

is Hillary's campaign.

She's in charge. She controls it.

She gracelessly refused to acknowledge Obama's victories, during his winning run. That little piece of information right there shows me what kind of person she is.

She has made the soft insinuation that Obama is a muslim.

She has stated several times that John McCain would be a better President than Obama.

And she calls herself a Democrat???!!!

To some of us it appears that she is willing to destroy the Democratic party and all the exuberant new comers.

I liken the difference between the two candidates to the battle between perfumed and powdered DLC aristocrats and the revolutionary mob, progressive democrats that want to revolutionize politics.

This explains the 'vitriol' against Hillary by the nutroots who have been working hard to get away from DLC politics, ala Joe Lieberman.

To me, Hillary, Joe Lieberman, and John McCain are all cut from the same cloth. (funded by defense contractors)

When she went behind closed doors and wrote her health care plan, she so infuriated other democrats by doing it in secret without their input that she (and Bill) divided the democratic party and handed the Republcans a Congressional victory.

I fully expect Hillary to be the democratic nominee after the Denver convention, because she has shown that she will do whatever it takes.

I don't think Obama stands a chance, given that she is willing to claim the same mantle of fear mongering that George Bush rattled and shook.

I liken it to the steroid scandal in baseball. The use of steroids was so pervasive that in order to compete and be successful everyone was doing it in order to win and everyone was looking the other way ignoring the damage being done to the great American past time (and in Hillary's case the democratic party)...... all for the sake of winning.

I have a bad feeling about the way Hillary is running her campaign, and a bad feeling about her as President, with her and Bills aristocratic big monied connections, ala Abu Dhabi. It will just be more of the same old same old.

Wag your finger if you must.

Mark my words, when Hillary gets appointed to be President by insiders of the credentials committe, and if she becomes President, her position on the
War will be the same as Joe Liebermans, who coincidentally supports John McCain.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Fair enough

I liken the difference between the two candidates to the battle between perfumed and powdered DLC aristocrats and the revolutionary mob, progressive democrats that want to revolutionize politics.

Just remember that it was the revolutionary mob, not the aristocrats, that brought about the Terror.

The aristocrats were corrupt and vicious, but in thoughtlessly overthrowing them the mob gave birth to far worse horrors.

Revolution in and of itself is not a good thing. It can be a good a thing, but only if very wisely managed. Otherwise it tends to be an invitation to atrocity.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Passion is good

I don't think you've been uncivil. It is great to feel passionate about a candidate (especially a Dem candidate, whether it is Hillary or Obama). We haven't seen this passion in the Dem party for a while.

The primaries will be over soon, then we can regroup and focus on the election that matters.

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That's true

yet critiquing Hillary seems to be portrayed by some as 'oh so out of bounds', or 'buying into Republican talking points.' I call bullsh*t on that piece of noise.

The problem, I see is the passion on both sides is not in the parties best interest.

Divide and conquer. That is exactly Hillary's strategy.

Edit; Anyone that would insinuate the Obama is a muslim for pure political gain, imho, is a monster. But poor Barack can't seem to control his surrogates. Samantha Powers who is an asset will be Dixie Chicked by the powers that be and forced to resign as an adviser to the Obama campaign.

God I hate this.

Of course Hillary could have graciously condeded and we could have rallied around our nominee. Right! Fat chance. Ego vampires never die :) (oops did I go to far)

It is the economy, stupid.

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Critiquing Hillary is not out of bounds

Threatening to burn Denver if she is nominated is.

There was actually a diary at DKos last night to that effect. And it was not removed by the admins. And there were numerous comments agreeing with the diarist.

Samantha Powers violated the cardinal rule for staffers -- do not become a liability for your candidate. She has made herself the story. Whether she resigns is up to Obama. Depends on whether he values her advice so much he is willing to put up with the bad publicity she has generated.

qui tacet consentire

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Really?

That's not the impression I get from Hill Cultists, who worship at her feet as if she is the incarnation of Jesus in 'she' form.

Hillary's rabid supporters seethe with anger at any hint of criticism of the queen. (See Taylor Marsh.) And they seethe equally about the audacity of Obama the haughty upstart and his hopelessly deluded supporters.

Hillary's campaign and style is everything some progressives have been trying to get away from for the last seven years. Democracy from inside the DLC. Only the rich and well connected need apply. That's life. That's reality.

I personally think Obama is history. Hillary will not stop until hope is dead.

It is the economy, stupid.

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I used to read Taylor Marsh every day.

I can't any more. Too much bullshit.

Miss L, you have been very good about not going off on Hillary lately. Take pride. You're a good seed.

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There's a Hillary Cult?

First I've heard of that.

Do they wear robes and try to sell you stuff at the airport?

qui tacet consentire

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I'm surprised too.

I've yet to read anything on the net anywhere that was strongly supportive of Hillary. I've read a number of people (including myself) who have offered tepid defenses of Hillary in the face of vicious attacks by Obama supporters (but not by Obama himself, to his credit).

Where is this cult?

Let's pose this little question, which is the greater insult; that one is a Muslim or that one is "Rovian." I'd say the later by a good long ways, wouldn't you? There's nothing intrinsically wrong with being a muslim (although it is fair to say that some people think there is). Meanwhile there is something absolutely obscene about being an intellectual heir to a pus bucket like Karl.

Which of those two labels is going to pose the bigger problem with democratic voters in November? Obviously "Rovian." Democrats have little trouble electing Muslims (witness Keith Ellison).

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Hmmm

"Enough with the speeches and the big rallies and then using tactics that are right out of Karl Rove's playbook. This is wrong and every Democrat should be outraged...Shame on you, Barack Obama."

HRC herself .

Bonus cherry-on-the-top: Ken Starr comparison.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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re: Ken Starr comparison

It's odd but clever.

It just reinforces the meme that Hillary is a victim, and rallies women in droves to support her out of sympathy. IN other words, it plays to her core supporters.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Further

Hillary is playing this, so that everytime Obama says something critical about Clinton, she plays it to her favor, by saying he 'attacked me more', further rallying her base of women, that she is a poor beat up abused victim.

On her web site, she has a tiimeline for "The Attack Timeline", starting when Obama first opened his mouth.

I don't see how Obama gets out of this viscious cycle of spin.

It is the economy, stupid.

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I agree with you that that's *wrong*

Obama certainly hasn't been Rovian either. Hillary grotesquely exaggerated.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Bill Clinton the greatest politician

or Karl Rove the greatest politician.

Karl is said to be partially responsible for the fracturing of the Republican party.

Will the Clinton's hold the same legacy of fracturing the Democratic party?

Rove and Bill Clinton have been said to be equals in the game of gunslinging political operatives.

Excuse me, but the muslim slur, while we know intellectually is technically not a slur, but for Joe Six Pack, and Sally Social Security, the implication is that Obama is a terrorist.

You decide which is worse. I already have.

As far as a cult, I don't think supporting a candidate Hillary or Obama is deserving of this right wing talking point cult label, implying that liberals are fascists.

If calling Hillary supporters cultists is offensive to you, then perhaps one could stop calling Obama supporters cultists, also. It's offensive.

It is the economy, stupid.

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I don't find it offensive...

...I find it inaccurate.

I have yet to see any Hillary supporters who approach the bounds of cult status. I have seen some (not all, *some*) Obama supporters who honestly do seem to be personality cultists. They speak of Obama as a religious figure, not a politician.

They scare the crap out of me. I have very little doubt that that kind can and will do anything they are asked to do by Obama's campaign. I mean a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. Nobody should that kind of power.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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That's a ridiculous over the top

exaggeration, frankly. Calling Obama supporters cultists is offensive, in my opinion.

If you don't agree with me, fine.

But to arrogantly correct me, saying that it is inaccurate, after I and others feel it insulting, is a disrespectful attempt to negate how I feel.

Especially after the win at all costs muslim smear from team Clinton. She deserves to be called a monster for that. That is divisive not only on a religious grounds, but on racial grounds. Great job girlfriend....... not!

Leaders should be admired, not because you are afraid of them, but because you respect them.

I should respect a bully in a pantsuit? No, that girl has lost my respect.

It is the economy, stupid.

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You are switching memes in midstream

But to arrogantly correct me, saying that it is inaccurate, after I and others feel it insulting, is a disrespectful attempt to negate how I feel.

I said calling Hillary supporters cultists was inaccurate. I somehow doubt calling Hillary supports cultists was what offended you (particularly since the charge came *from* you). Instead it was calling Obama supporters cultists that offended you. So you are conflating two different things here. If you don;t believe me go back to this sentence and replace the "it" pronouns with what you really meant. You'll find that the two "its" are not the same thing.

In other words- you can certainly take offense at my observation that some Obama supporters act like personality cultists. But when you argue that I shouldn't say it because *I* get offended by the same charge thrown at Hillary you are wrong- I am not offended. I simply find it erroneous.

Leaders should be admired, not because you are afraid of them, but because you respect them.

What is there to respect about any major national politician?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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*pffft*

Yeah yeah.

There are no heroes. Let's face it even Babe Ruth wasn't perfect.

But there are movements. Obama could be the leader of one.

Not so sure about Hillary.

That's the difference.

It is the economy, stupid.

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Jim Jones led a movement too

simply the act of being a movement is not enough. It has to be going somewhere good.

I'm really not all that comfortable with a politicians leading a "movement." I just want them to do their job.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

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Why try? Status Quo it is.

I will give an A+ for cynicism.

Maybe you could teach a class...... :=)

Never mind that a Presidents job is leading the country, eh?

It is the economy, stupid.

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Disagree

Never mind that a Presidents job is leading the country, eh?

Such undue praise and weight on one person, IMO.

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What would you call it?

The President of the United States is often referred to as the leader of the free world. That person generally points the US in a general direction by the tone of his rhetoric to the American people. And who is appointed to his staff.

It is the economy, stupid.

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"Referred to" and "is"

are two different things.

Calling him a "leader" is rhetorical shorthand that becomes less and less accurate as you think things through.