Weekend Open Thread

Dem Wyoming caucuses are today (Romney won GOP back on Jan 5th).

Spain elections are this Sunday.

Some snow/rain expected today. What's happening this weekend?

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13 inches here in Columbus (so far)

Another round of snow is moving in right now-- 3-5 more inches expected.

The task this morning was to get the car from the top of the driveway to the bottom of the driveway. Fortunately the snow is fluffy and powdery and light, plus I had shoveled the first 3 or 4 inches before I went to bed last night, so there was only about 8 inches on the driveway. Also fortunately, my driveway is protected on the north by large evergreens, so no ridiculous drifts. So, not too bad to shovel at all, just kinda swept it out of the way with the shovel.

Why exactly *did* I drive up to the top of the driveway last night?

 

view back to the garage from the bottom of the driveway. I think I need to find a camera setting that 'ignores' snowflakes one inch away from the camera lens...

 

Good thing I have a four-wheel drive vehicle!... Oh wait, that's not right, my car's a 4-cylinder, not a 4WD! Note that the neighbors have yet to touch their driveway... Hehehehe! Oh wait, their son usually comes and plows their driveway, and never gives me a freebie while he's at it :-(

 

There may or may not be a newspaper under that snow on the stoop.

 

The car in the garage is actually a limousine that a friend of mine stores there because my garage is deep enough for it to fit. It's not going anywhere, because I was too lazy to shovel out the front of the garage :-) Good thing this isn't prom season...

 

Mission accomplished!

…………

That's a lot of snow

Good workout to shovel that I bet =P

Nice pictures.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

………… parent

All that snow!!!

Man, I've never experience the whole "shovel the driveway" thing. I guess I'll get it if I ever move to a heavy-snow area outside of the city limits. (Not looking forward to that though).

http://wealthweekly.blogspot.com
Wii FC:2805-8311-8040-2678
Brawl: 2277-7051-2186

………… parent

Normal people would pay someone $20 for a plow job :-)

But I'm pathologically cheap when it comes to this kind of thing, and this has no doubt warped my mind to the point where I actually sort of enjoy shoveling snow...

 

………… parent

Very pretty.

We don;t get much snow here. Every couple years it snows but usually just a few inches. Sort of a pity (not that I'd want *that* much, mind you)

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

We're dealing with a bit of that, too,

although we were lucky that a lot of the snow dumped just west of us. Our roads are a little crappy, but I think overall it wasn't as bad as it could be.

God, I hate winter.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

………… parent

Which part of Columbus are you from skymutt?

Gahnna?  Upper Arlington?  Reynoldsburg?  Dublin?  Columbus proper?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Columbus proper

...well, actually not, if you want to be precise-- I actually live in a 4-lot "hole" in Columbus that actually lies in Clinton Township.  It's right near Cooke Road and I-71. 

………… parent

So do you know where Rod's Western Palace is? :)

I used to live on North 4th Street between 15th and 17th Ave when I went to OSU.  I also lived just off 161 about 1/2 mile east of I-71.  Basically just a little further down from the Red Lobster.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Sure do!

Probably less than two miles from the mutt homestead as the crow flies.  I am not a patron of that fine establishment, however-- perhaps I should be :-)

I grew up on Satinwood Drive, first traffic light on 161 east of I-71.  My parents still live there.  Red Lobster was the go-to place for special occasions in my family, and i went for the Neptune Platter almost without fail.  The only time I've ever thrown up in a public establishment was in the lobby of that Red Lobster-- I was maybe 14, and we went out to eat after I'd totally exhausted myself by playing several hours of hoops at the Woodward Park rec center.  The seafood, obviously, didn't sit well.

………… parent

Well you sure didn't fall far from the nest ... :)

I used to live in a townhouse right on Tamarack from about 1982 until about 1986.  Easy walking distance down the access road to the old Red Lobster location before they moved next door.  Shopped at Franks Nursery and Crafts all the time!

Small world, eh?  It's still smaller than you might think!  He he. 

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Hey skymutt, send me an e-mail ...

I setup a throw away account for you to contact me.  Send e-mail to skymutt@nym.hush.com so we can talk off-line.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

My final snow estimate was 16"....

Being a shut-in isn't all that bad. College basketball eases some of the pain.

………… parent

The main reason I dug out the driveway

...was because I've got tickets to go down to the Michigan State game tomorrow... other than that, I woulda been fine with sticking out the weekend at home.

 

………… parent

I'm jealous.

Please tell Drew Neitzel that he sucks for me. Enjoy!

………… parent

I told him loudly and often :-)

Wasn't looking too good there for awhile, but ended up being a great game, great environment the last ten minutes-- after Lighty made that block on Neitzel's layup, the crowd was deafening the rest of the game.  My seats were in the upper level but we went down near courtside right from the start-- I think the ushers had secret orders to let the lower level fill in a bit, lotta people didn't make it.  Too bad for them, it was a good time.

………… parent

After completely decimating Tlaloc with ...

this reply, and listening to skymutt, kindness, and Spiritual Lefty trash talking all over the site about how the rich are only getting richer, the rich only inherited their money, blah, blah, blah, I decide to follow up with a post of my own on the topic.

I will eventually cross post it here but for now you can see the first part on my blog:

Income Mobility: How the Liberals Lie about the Income Gap
(Part 1).

Enjoy!

Part 2 will look at the IRS study in more detail and include all of the main tables from the PDF.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

…………

Income inequality

Perhaps you are missing the point of my objections to income equality. The analogy at the beginning of the Treasury Department study , which likens the income distribution to a hotel, is an understandable one. And it is great that the best rooms are not always occupied by the same person. The problem, though, is that the hotel as a whole is using huge sums of money to make those best rooms better and better, while small shabby ones remain coakroach infested ratholes.

Wouldn't it be better for the hotel as a whole to invest in making their worst rooms better? Not neglecting the premium rooms, and continuing to make improvements there as well, but not exclusively. That is the problem I have with income inequality, as best as can be expressed using that analogy.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Never mind.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

First of all, let's be precise:

I never said that the rich inherited *all* their money. Show me where I did. I did say that many amongst the rich have inherited wealth and privelege from previous generations. By privilege, I mean things like free education in exclusive schools, provided by the parents; high paying jobs obtained through family contacts; Dad's co-signature on a first home loan (perhaps coupled with a little help with the down payment) and so forth.

Now that we have that fundamental fact established: let's move on to the flaws in your piece, especially with respect to my arguments agaisnt the elimination of the estate tax:

1. This Treasury Dept. study, which I have seen before, is an income study, not a wealth study. You really can't possibly make any conclusions about wealth from an income study, because... well, because it's not a study which even takes wealth into account.

2. Even if it was a wealth study, if you compared the total net worth of a sample of people at ten year intervals, I would expect to see a lot of "wealth mobility" too... but a decent chunk of the upward mobility to the highest groups would be due to heirs receiving an inheritance sometime within the ten year window.

So you haven't refuted my points, because you aren't even discussing the same points I brought up. So you might as well have left my name out of your post, but let's look at your analysis of income anyway:

We would expect a good deal of "income mobility" as measured by changes in an individual's income over time even in societies where inherited wealth and privelege were dominant over true mobility from a lower socioeconomic class to an upper class. For instance, a rich young adult may have very little income or no income at all, yet still be "living off the fat of the land", enjoying a privileged lifestyle, cruising thru college on their parents' dime, etc. Then, ten year later, they may have a well paying job and have moved up several notches on the income mobility ladder, but is this really income mobility? And with this in mind, does the study really measure "income mobility"?  Or is the tudy merely measuring "income volatility": fluctuations in income over time?  I would argue the latter is more accurate.  Perhaps we can learn something from the study, but it does not give the complete picture as far as income mobility as far as I'm concerned.

Fortunatley a better measure of "income mobility" which is much more germane to my argument about intergenerational transfers of wealth and privilege can be determined by looking at the variance of an individual's income from their parent's income. A Center for American Progress study analyzed intergenerational income differences from parent to child and came to the following conclusions, among others:

-- Children from low-income families have only a 1 percent chance of reaching the top 5 percent of the income distribution, versus children of the rich who have about a 22 percent chance.

--By international standards, the United States has an unusually low level of intergenerational mobility: our parents’ income is highly predictive of our incomes as adults. Intergenerational mobility in the United States is lower than in France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Norway and Denmark. Among high-income countries for which comparable estimates are available, only the United Kingdom had a lower rate of mobility than the United States.

Perhaps more damaging to your conclusion that "hard work" is rewarded in America by upward mobility was this finding from the study:

Households whose adult members all worked more than 40 hours per week for two years in a row were more upwardly mobile in 1990-91 and 1997-98 than households who worked fewer hours. Yet this was not true in 2003-04, suggesting that people who work long hours on a consistent basis no longer appear to be able to generate much upward mobility for their families.

 

Now, when we were talking about the inheritance tax, we were talking specifically about race, and I was specifically talking about the wealth gap between blacks and whites. What I did say was this:

Much of this [old, inherited] money,
largely held by whites, was not earned by present generations, but it
is the legacy of wealth and privelege from an earlier racist era where
unfair policies excluded blacks from the opportunity to accumulate
wealth, or worse, where white wealth was generated on the back of
blacks, whose own wealth needle was never allowed to budge from zero.

There still is a huge wealth gap between blacks and whites in America, according to this chart showing net worth in 2000:

I am suggesting that these differences are a legacy of slavery and racist polices that survived slavery But am I suggesting drastic measures such as reparation payments? Not at all-- I don't beleive that reparations are realistic politically, feasible logistically, necessary, or even fair. Time cannot be turned back, life is not fair, and so on. I am not in favor of any new race based policies in our country and think that current race-based policies should be gradually phased out. All I am suggesting is to keep and perhaps raise the inheritance tax as compared to the income tax-- a moderate, racially neutral policy which will noetheless serve to gradually smooth out, over the course of generations, the stark racial differences in wealth which we see in the graph above.

 

………… parent

I don't have issues with the wealthy.

I just think they've gotten more than their fair share of tax breaks during this administration, and now the middle class is paying more as a percentage of the total tax revenue.

Statistics bare that out. I didn't make any of that up.

………… parent

What statistics are you using? CBO data

shows that the top 20% are paying more as a %-tage of total tax revenue and the middle class burden has declined.

 

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=8885&type=2

 

Shares of Federal Tax Liabilities for All Households, by Comprehensive Household Income Quintile, 1979-2005
                       
Year Lowest Quintile Second Quintile Middle Quintile Fourth Quintile Highest Quintile All Quintiles Top 10% Top 5% Top 1%
                       
Share of Total Federal Tax Liabilities
1979 2.1 7.2 13.2 21.0 56.4 100.0 40.7 29.6 15.4
1980 2.0 7.0 13.3 21.3 56.3 100.0 40.0 28.7 14.2
1981 2.0 7.1 13.6 21.9 55.2 100.0 38.6 27.2 12.9
1982 2.1 7.1 13.6 22.1 55.0 100.0 38.0 26.5 12.8
1983 2.2 6.9 13.3 21.8 55.7 100.0 39.0 27.7 14.0
1984 2.4 7.2 13.2 21.4 55.6 100.0 39.3 28.2 14.7
1985 2.3 7.2 13.2 21.3 55.8 100.0 39.5 28.4 14.8
1986 2.1 6.8 12.7 20.8 57.5 100.0 41.6 30.7 17.1
1987 1.8 6.5 12.4 20.7 58.4 100.0 42.2 30.8 16.2
1988 1.7 6.4 12.2 20.4 59.1 100.0 43.2 32.3 18.1
1989 1.6 6.4 12.6 20.6 58.7 100.0 42.5 31.3 16.7
1990 1.9 6.8 12.6 20.7 57.9 100.0 41.7 30.6 16.2
1991 1.9 6.6 12.6 20.9 57.9 100.0 41.7 30.3 15.7
1992 1.7 6.2 12.2 20.2 59.5 100.0 43.6 32.3 17.5
1993 1.6 6.0 11.8 19.8 60.5 100.0 44.9 33.8 18.7
1994 1.3 5.8 11.8 19.8 61.1 100.0 45.6 34.4 19.4
1995 1.3 5.8 11.4 19.3 61.9 100.0 46.6 35.4 20.1
1996 1.1 5.5 11.1 18.8 63.4 100.0 48.3 37.3 21.8
1997 1.1 5.4 10.8 18.3 64.2 100.0 49.3 38.3 22.7
1998 1.1 5.2 10.5 18.2 64.9 100.0 49.9 38.9 23.3
1999 1.1 5.2 10.2 17.8 65.6 100.0 51.0 40.2 24.3
2000 1.1 4.8 9.8 17.5 66.6 100.0 52.2 41.4 25.5
2001 1.0 4.9 10.1 18.4 65.3 100.0 50.0 38.5 22.7
2002 1.0 4.9 10.4 18.8 64.8 100.0 49.2 37.6 21.4
2003 1.0 4.5 10.0 18.4 65.8 100.0 50.4 39.0 22.9
2004 0.9 4.4 9.7 17.6 67.2 100.0 52.5 41.4 25.4
2005 0.8 4.1 9.3 16.9 68.7 100.0 54.7 43.8 27.6
………… parent

A most excellent reference, thanks! :)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

SHHHHH! You're not helping!

:)

………… parent

I can't actually decide how to interpret this response.

Not helping in what way?

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Not helping the anti-rich narrative

it's a snark.

………… parent

OK, I agree. :)

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

Which anti-rich narrative would that be?

I just want to be clear on what you actually consider to be the anti-rich narrative on this site. 

Speaking for myself, I would certainly like to see more people get rich, and I think that the way to do that is to do what we can to ease the tax burden on people and businesses.  I favor higher estate taxes and lower income and payroll taxes because I think it's more important that the  efforts of workers and entrepreneurs be rewarded by the fruits of their labors while they are living than it is for the Walton heirs to keep every red cent of their inheritance, when they will never have to work a day in their lives whether they are taxed on their inheritance or not.  It's nothing personal against the Waltons or other wealthy families, but I think that the average small business owner would make better use of the extra money at the margin than the Walton heirs would. 

If that's anti-rich, then I'm anti-rich I guess. 

………… parent

Wrong metric, ATQB

What statistics are you using? CBO data
shows that the top 20% are paying more as a %-tage of total tax revenue and the middle class burden has declined.

that they are paying more of the total tax burden doesn't mean anything. The correct metric to look at is their personal tax burden percentage. As my initial post made clear the super wealthy were paying the same percentage of their income as the middle class.

The only reason their percent of the total has gone up then is beacuse they are scarfing up more and more of the total available money.

UPDATE- ah, I see. You were specifically addressing the narrow question at the end of Kindness' post, and not the overall issue. My apologies.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Solution, Tlaloc:

Lower the tax rates on lower income brackets. :)

………… parent

they already pay 0

in most cases. Or was this more snark?

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

How obtuse. No surprise.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

nope. No snark.

I'm dead serious. Besides, I was speaking about the lose taxable income brackets. But, yes, the bottom already pay zero and often times negative because tax credits , subsidies and services are worth more than anything they pay.

………… parent

Income pools are not fixed.

It's fallacious to see these matters as zero sum.

………… parent

Ha, beat me to it!

I was going to make this point as well. We see evidence of this fact in the income statistics by virtue of the increases in the mean and median incomes of ALL taxpayers. If the pie were a fixed size this could not be possible.

Tlaloc consistently confuses the size of the "income pie" with the size of the pool of currency in circulation as this comment illustrates:

The only reason their percent of the total has gone up then is beacuse
they are scarfing up more and more of the total available money.

He fails to understand that the net worth of the nation is NOT constrained by how much actual currency the government decides to keep in circulation at any point in time.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

That's just not true, John.

At any given moment the total wealth of the US is a fixed number. It will change over time certainly but you absolutely can and should take snapshots (data) of the situation. Those snapshots are very much a zero sum game. If one person has 99% of the wealth on Jan 1st, 2000, it doesn't matter that slightly more wealth may be created on Jan 2nd.

The fallacy is pretending this is NOT a zero sum game.

I came. I saw. I posted.
Veni, Vidi, Bitchy.

………… parent

Who cares about snapshots?

It will change over time certainly but you absolutely can and should
take snapshots (data) of the situation. Those snapshots are very much a
zero sum game.

Only in the sense that the amount of wealth is invariant at any instant in time.  People don't live in instances of time, they live in the real universe where time flows.   As long as you let time flow, as it does in the real world, it is NOT a zero sum game.

What value is there in snapshots if the amount of wealth varies from one to the next?  This means that comparisons between the snapshots are meaningless.

Republican Maverick at Large
-4:Strongly Disagree; 0:Meh; +4:Strongly Agree

………… parent

RE: Wrong metric, ATQB

The correct metric to look at is their personal tax burden percentage.

Not to quibble here, but I think this is exactly the metric he is quoting. The metric you seem to prefer is the Effective Federal Tax Rate, unless I am mistaken.

As my initial post made clear the super wealthy were paying the same percentage of their income as the middle class.

You may THINK that is what you initial post made clear, but did it really? Let's see, shall we? From the CBO documents ATQB references above we find:

 

Table 1A