Friday Open Thread

Protests in Tibet result in two deaths. So much for China's newer, softer image approach before the Olympics.

Due to Bear Stearns bail out, investors are bailing out . Do you think it is wise for a brokerage firm to have the word 'Bear' in its name?

How are you today?

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This is Hilarious

While posting the Jeff Flake piece last night from reason.tv, I also watched this piece .

The kid's got balls. LOL.

…………

Party on, mate

Is that real? Sounds like the Australian Onion.

qui tacet consentire

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Bail Out

American Voices:

Question: The Federal Reserve announced that they would be setting up a $200 billion program to assist struggling banks. What do you think?

Answer (from Lynn Fitzpatrick): "Giving money to institutions that failed at their only job, which was to have money, may not be the best strategy."

h/t The Onion

We are all mediators, translators. - Derrida
http://signicide.blogspot.com/

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The Wrong Lizard

Friends,

I'll be doing my own blogging stuff over at The Wrong Lizard , a Wordpress-based blog I just started.

There isn't much there, but keep an eye on it in case I say something particularly interesting. I'd be much obliged if an admin could add it to the "member blogs" area along with the others.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

…………

Yea, I got your message.

Looking forward to it!  Be sure to cross post or at least provide pointers from here too as a reminder though!  :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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NP

I added you to the "blogroll" section, but it doesn't seem to be listed anywhere on the page...I'll have to investigate futher.

Update: Found it.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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Excellent, and done

I love the name and the Adams excerpt that goes with it.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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It was the Carlyle Capitol Corp default

that caught my eye.

After looking it over I was less so, but still, The Carlyle Group is a very exclusive group. It functions like a limited partnership for it's very few members. The Bush family, the Saudi Royal family, James Baker to name a few. Very important and very saavay business folk.

But then I learned that the Carlyle Capitol Corp was kind of a spin off, not wholly owned by the Carlyle Group yesterday. Carlyle Capitol Corp had an IPO in the late spring last year so after that, the main Carlyle Group members diluted their holdings and liabilities.

Surprising none the less.

…………

Who saw Jon Stewart last night?

I usually watch it on the 8 pm showing the next day, but the good folks over at C&L were nice enough to give us this taste and it is funny.

Jon uses Bush's speech at the Gaylord Opryland resort for fun and fodder. Worth the 4 minutes.

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This thing with Obama and his pastor

is becoming toxic.

The stuff about 9/11 was bad enough but the "god damn America" comment is just poison.

Obama has to do more than say they have different opinions. He has to leave that church.

qui tacet consentire

…………

why? Did anyone say the same thing about Robertson?

How about Oral Roberts? Jerry Falwell?

Barack is not responsible for the guy. He shouldn't have to apologize for something he himself never said nor was he even in the audience to hear.

Saying he found the Pastors comments distasteful and not to his beliefs is fine for me.

Of course if you want to link all us liberals to the brazen lies of dubya and Darth because we're all Americans too....well that would be about the same thing.

Look at the Preachers that McCain has been hugging lately and what they have said.

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In fairness,

we do say that about Robertson, Roberts, and Falwell. And McCain's embrace of Falwell is going to play again and again during the general election cycle, don't worry.

Not saying that the scrutiny of Obama's pastor is a right or wrong thing, just that's it's not an uncommon thing.

Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

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Noted anti-semite Billy Graham

a welcome guest in many a White House. A pastoral adviser to many.

Noted white separatist and anti-semite Pat Buchanon is welcomed as a frequent host on the cable news.

I guess it's okay if you are white and were a part of Nixon's inner circle.

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So why do you hate Christians?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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The inquisition lives on....

March in lockstep

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Falwell is a sleazy bigot

I would never vote for anyone who was tied to Falwell or a member of any of his organizations.

What I find most amazing is that there are actually people defending Wright. I was listening to a radio talk show host last night justifying "god damn America" and arguing it has to be taken in context.

There is no larger context that ever makes it OK to say that and still expect to be elected president of the United States.

qui tacet consentire

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Wright

does not expect to be elected president of the United States. And Obama did not say those words. So where's the issue?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Ferraro

does not expect to be elected president of the United States. And Clinton did not say those words. So where's the issue?

Just because you think it is ridiculous to hold the words of a supporter against a candidate doesn't mean it won't happen. I didn't say it was right or that it was justified or reasonable in either case. I am saying that it will be done.

That's how it works.

Ferraro says something incredibly stupid and the opposition jumps all over it. She should have known better and she had to resign her role with the campaign. Clinton was not fast enough or forceful enough in repudiating what Ferraro said and it hurt her badly.

qui tacet consentire

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OK

I agree with pretty much everything you say here.

I didn't say it was right or that it was justified or reasonable in either case. I am saying that it will be done.

 And I didn't say it won't happen. I'm just saying it is not and was not a real issue, and people shouldn't be swayed by it. ("Shouldn't" not "Won't")

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Barak Obama and his wife were

members and a part of Wright's congregation for many years. Obama has called Wright his spiritual advisor. It may be true that Obama never heard the videos of Wright we are now seeing on TV and the internet. But I kind of doubt it. This will definitely hurt Obama's image with the general electorate.

name the enemy, win the war

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Bah.

Leave that church? Why?

It is just ridiculous to hold responsible every member of a congregation for every word that their pastor says. Tell me, how many seconds of Wright's sermons have you listened to, and how many hours (days?) worth of sermons do you think he has given? Who are you to judge whether someone should leave their church?

Wright is retired now anyway, so again, why should Obama leave his church?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Agreed

We are deciding whether to elect Barack Obama for President.  We are not deciding whether to elect Barack Obama's pastor for President.

 

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I don't think it is that cut and dry.

It is just ridiculous to hold responsible every member of a congregation for every word that their pastor says.

If Obama wants to put on his spiritual face then the attitude of his spiritual leader seems relevant to me. I agree that Obama is not responsible for what this guy said, but on the other hand Obama was looking to him for guidance and if this is the type of attitude the Pastor had then it seems a fair question to ask how much Obama was actually influenced by this guy. Especially when coupled with statements from his wife that "this is the first time she has been proud of America."

Now Obama is naturally going to say he doesn't agree with this type of stuff, but then again racists try to claim that they aren't racists, right? Or at least the liberals tell us so. Ergo simply denying it is not sufficient to prove anything.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I only have to listen to 10 seconds

of Wright's entire life's work -- the 10 seconds where he says "God damn America."

If you don't think those 10 seconds won't be played over and over and over and over again in the fall, you're delusional.

Who said reason and fairness have anything to do with it? You think because something is ridiculous it won't kill off a campaign? Remember the Swift Boaters?

Yes, Obama needs to do more than condemn the remarks. If he wants to be president, he needs to leave the church. Because being associated in even a remote way with a remark like "God damn America" is absolutely lethal.

Wright has put him in the position where he has to choose between his church membership and his presidential ambitions. It's not fair, but American history is littered with presidential campaigns shot down by underhanded, sleazy, low, disgusting, unfair, ridiculous and stupid things.

What difference does it make if Wright's retired now? When was the last time Geraldine Ferraro held office? Doesn't stop people from using things retirees say to hammer their opponents.

qui tacet consentire

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These type of things come up every election

The only things that tend to stick, though, are the things about the candidates themselves.  For instance, Jim McDougal was under indictment for Whitewater-related activities during the 1996 campaign.  Bill Clinton was a partner in some of those activities.  But this really did not stick during the campaign, because Bill Clinton was not charged with a crime. Would Bill Clinton have been served by making all manner of proclaimations of innocence about Whitewater?  Would Bill Clinton have been served by publicly condemning Jim McDougal?  Doubtful.

The Swift Boat stories, though they were outright lies in some cases, were about Kerry.  If a candidate is a central player in a story, they must confront that story differently than when the story has more of a guilt by association theme.  

Barack Obama has already made his statement on this issue.  The pastor is retired.  So tell me this-- what is going to keep this story going?  What new information is going to keep the media interested in this story?  The answer is: nothing.  There's nothing to keep this story fresh, and so if Barack just keeps referring back to the statement he's already made, it will go away.  If McCain brings this up in the general election, Barack can point to the fact that McCain is going back on his pledge of keeping the election positive and on the issues.

Just wait a week or two, and see if this story is still alive.  I predict not. 

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Are you serious?

what is going to keep this story going?

That's easy. 527s.

Of course McCain won't bring it up. He doesn't have to. Did Bush ever bring up the Swift Boat garbage?

What keeps the "Obama is a secret Muslim who refuses to pledge allegiance to the flag" emails alive despite repeated denials, stories debunking them and nothing "fresh" to fuel them?

There is no crying in baseball and there is no fairness in politics.

qui tacet consentire

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Won't work

A 527 ad on this subject, that is.  It won't be effective.  It's not about Obama or something that Obama did.  Besides, they could do such an ad whether Obama quits his church or not, in fact, it looks worse if he quits his church.  What does it say about a man that he would quit his church over a political campaign?

I sincerely hope that he does not heed your advice. 

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If I were attending a service

at the church where I have been a member for 20 years, where I was married and where my children were baptized -- and the minister said "god damn America" -- I would stand up, do a 180, walk out and never return.

Now, if church members became outraged over that and repudiated the minister I might stay.

I didn't hear any booing from the congregation Wright on that tape. I wonder how other church members feel about what Wright said. Do they support him? Do they agree with what he said?

You think it would look bad to take a principled stand against a man who condemns America? On what planet?

qui tacet consentire

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HOw is it terribly different than what Ron Paul says

about our foreign policy

Wright was saying nearly the same thing as Ron Paul, but in more colorful language. That the US actions have consequences, are costly and have blowback.

HOw is it terribly different that Republicans say they just "hate" government, or hate paying their damn taxes. Isn't that our country they are speaking of in such damning terms.

Last I checked Ron Paul was pretty popular.

And gathering from the County Delegate Convention I just attended, whatever wrath you hold, is not shared by the overwhelming number of Obama supporters who roared their support, and were shockingly mostly not black..

You are so offended by the Iraq War, you are willing to 'dam GWB', which some find the equally unpatriotic.

YOu can't paint Barack Obama with every word the preacher of a church says, nor can you hold Catholics accountable for the crimes of their childmolesting priests.

Too bad they don't run a Jim Hagee speech on cable news for 24 hours, every ten minutes, so we can all "love' our country and start a war with Iran.

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If I were attending a

If I were attending a service at the church where I have been a member for 20 years, where I was
married and where my children were baptized -- and the minister said
"god damn America" -- I would stand up, do a 180, walk out and never
return.

Okay-- and maybe you are someone who would actually do this-- but most people, even highly principled people, aren't going to have that reaction to this kind of speech.  I can vehemently disagree with something that someone says and still associate with them and still even associate myself with other things that they say.  People amount to something more than the last few words that have come out of their mouth. 

You think it would look bad to take a principled stand against a man who condemns America? On what planet?

How is it a "principled stand" to leave the church now?  If he left the moment the pastor said what he said, then yes, that would be a very principled stand (although, as I say, showing up someone in public like you say you would have is very very rare behavior).  If he leaves now, it's not a principled stand, it's a transparent cave to public pressure. 

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It's a good test for him

He has to walk a line between appearing to throw Wright under the bus but still clearly renounce the extreme statements.

Unlike some of the smears floating around, this issue was going to come up in the general. Better to deal with it now.

Come, my friends. 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world -- Tennyson

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He's given a pretty good answer

And quickly :

Let me say at the outset that I vehemently disagree and strongly
condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy.
I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great
country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that
words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue,
whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject
outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue.

 Regarding leaving the church:

When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the
beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that
I strongly condemned his comments. But because Rev. Wright was on the
verge of retirement, and because of my strong links to the Trinity
faith community, where I married my wife and where my daughters were
baptized, I did not think it appropriate to leave the church.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Regarding your first quote ...

and yet this is the first time his wife has been proud of America, right?  Denials are simply not enough, as I point out above, the racists deny that they are racists too ... or so the liberals tell us.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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If denial is not enough

...than what is? If I were to claim that McCain is seeking to achieve the End Times, Armageddon and all that, how can he prove that is not the case?

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Whatever proof the liberals will accept as proof that ...

someone is not a racist is good enough for me, suitably adapted to this case obviously.

So, what would you expect of say, Trent Lott who has been demonized as a racist by the left, to demonstrate that he is not a racist?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Not really the same

If I am not mistaken, the charges of racism are based on things that Lott himself said, not based on something that someone associated with him said, so I don't think it's a great comparison.

But honestly, I pretty much thought he was railroaded into resigning. And it wasn't just liberals, either. Even Bush said his comments were offensive. I'm willing to believe it was just a pooly thought out turn of phrase, myself.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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OK, so I picked a bad example ...

way to completley dodge the entire point of the question.  So, without example then, what evidence would you demand of someone to prove that they are not racist after having been so accused?

Whatever evidence would be suitable to satisfy liberals in this case will be good enough for me in Obama's case.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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OK

If someone were accused of racism based on no words or actions of their own, but on the words of someone with whom they were associated, then the following would be sufficient: "No I'm not." Bonus points for saying "I completely disagree with the words that were spoken."

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Whatever the case, whatever the subject

you are from the blame liberals first crowd, so I don't really think presenting reasonable, rational examples will ever ever change your mind.

Denials will never be enough for you, unless of course it is George Bush denying that he did not serve his full term in the national guard. There seems to be no proof that he completed his obligation. Yet he denied he did not serve out his military contract, and you were satisfied with Bush's denial.

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When was there ever any evidence to the contrary?

There seems to be no proof that he completed his obligation.

Nor does there seem to be any proof that he didn't, unless you want to count forged media documents. 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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So a denial is enough

If it comes from the 'right' person. Ie: anyone that is not in your mind liberal.

Gotcha.

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No, not at all.

The "evidence" against Bush was shown to be forged and fabricated which seems a reasonable measure for being considered exonerated.

In contrast, Obama hasn't even denied having been a follower of this Pastor by virtue of having been a member of his church. He has not even denied having been associated with him. So, I'll ask you too, as a liberal what sort of "proof" would you demand of an accused racist to exonerate himself/herself? I would consider this sufficient in the Obama case as well.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Case closed.

Your denial is all yours.

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Well.....

I think he has regained his balance . Recalling the amazing speech that Bobby Kennedy gave in Indiana after MLK was killed, he implores folks not to succumb to the politics of division. As a nation we can't afford to lose this moment.

I was just listening to JFK's speech writer, Ted Sorenson. He wrote the speech that John Kennedy gave to the nation....... on national TV, to educate and guide the country on the need for human dignity, as he was employing the National Guard to remove George Wallace from the school house steps so two black students could walk through the door of opportunity at Alabama University.

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CEI must be getting desperate

After the laughable We call it life advertisement the Competitive Enterprise Institute tried out a year or two ago, I guess they realize that they can't attack the science of global warming with any credibility, so now they just harsh on Al Gore . Thing is, they can't even get the facts right on this one either! Island of Doubt has the scoop:

It is simply not credible to argue that the CEI team did not know about
the discrepancy between their ad's claim and the truth. At best they
didn't care whether or not their ad was factual, which amounts to the
same irresponsible attitude.

Oh, snap!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Speaking of global warming ...

Here is an interesting read on the media bias in favor of GW alarmism:

Lorne Gunter: The media snowjob on global warming

Just how pervasive the bias at most news outlets is in favour of climate alarmism -- and how little interest most outlets have in reporting any research that diverges from the alarmist orthodoxy -- can be seen in a Washington Post Nongovernmental International Panel on Climate Change (NIPCC), announced last week in New York.

The NIPCC is a counter to the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC. The group was unveiled this week in Manhattan at the 2008 International Conference on Climate Change, along with its scientific report claiming that natural factors -- the sun, El Ninos and La Ninas, volcanoes, etc. -- not human sources are behind global warming.

[...]

The insidiousness I am referring to is the unfavourable way the Post compared the NIPCC report to the IPCC's famous report of last year.

After
reminding readers that the IPCC and former U.S. vice-president Al Gore shared the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007 for their work on climate change, the paper then, sneeringly, added: "While the IPCC enlisted several hundred scientists from more than 100 countries to work over five years to produce its series of reports, the NIPCC document is the work of 23 authors from 15 nations, some of them not scientists."

[...]

Hundreds of scientists may have contributed bits and pieces of work to the IPCC's gargantuan report, but just 62 wrote the chapter said to "prove" that man is behind global warming -- not that many more than the 23 from the new NIPCC whom the Post so snidely dismiss as inconsequential in number. And just 52 people -- many of them the kind of non-scientists the Post would have us believe have no business passing judgment -- wrote the IPCC's "Summary for Policy-makers." That's the publication that gets all the ink and drives the climate alarmism because it contains the most provocative statements about the certainty of manmade warming.

The bias is that whatever the IPCC and its defenders claim, the Washington Post and most other outlets report without scrutiny. Meanwhile, the motives and sources of all sceptics are instantly suspected and derided.

 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Arctic ice recovering nicely ... who woulda guessed?

Recent cold snap helping Arctic sea ice, scientists find :

Satellite images are showing that the cold spell is helping the sea ice
expand in coverage by about 2 million square kilometres, compared to
the average winter coverage in the previous three years.

[...]

The cold is also making the ice thicker in some areas, compared to recorded thicknesses last year, Lagnis added.

"The ice is about 10 to 20 centimetres thicker than last year, so that's a significant increase," he said.

If temperatures remain cold this winter, Langis said winter sea ice coverage will continue to expand.

So that's good news. But if you read further you find this:

But he added that it's too soon to say what impact this winter will
have on the Arctic summer sea ice, which reached its lowest coverage
ever recorded in the summer of 2007.

That was because the thick multi-year ice pack that survives a
summer melt has been decreasing in recent years, as well as moving
further south
. Langis said the ice pack is currently located about 130
kilometres from the Mackenzie Delta, about half the distance from where
it was last year.

Hmm. The ice pack has been moving south. And people are surprised that it is melting? Pure genius, I can sure see why the greenies listen to these guys so much, that's simply stupifying!

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Climate change

So the arctic had a warmer summer than usual, and is now having a colder winter than usual. Sounds like climate change to me!

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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But if we listen to all those climate change scientists ...

the ice melting is indictative of Global Warming, whereas I am sure that they have an argument that the ice forming is also indicative of Global Warming as well. Scientifically speaking, these people can't see any physical phenomena that they can't explain as somehow supporting Global Warming.

It's like they have a pre-defined conclusion and are simply spinning all the data to support that conclusion.

In many ways the Global Warming alarmists seem to be relying on scientific reasoning analogous to that being demonstrated here:

Notice the similarity in how the "scientifically minded" knight guides the "ordinary people" through the "logic" of the situation? Just like the climate scientists leading the GW alarmists! :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Global warming consensus? What global warming consensus?

Scientists doubt climate change :

More than 400 scientists challenge claims by former Vice President Al Gore and the United Nations about the threat of man-made global warming, a new Senate minority report says.

The scientists — many of whom are current or former members of the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that shares the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize with Mr. Gore for publicizing a climate crisis — cast doubt on the "scientific consensus" that man-made global warming imperils the planet.

[...]

Sen. James M. Inhofe of Oklahoma, ranking Republican on the Environment and Public Works Committee, said the report debunks Mr. Gore's claim that the "debate is over."

"The endless claims of a 'consensus' about man-made global warming grow less-and-less credible every day," he said.

 


Climate debate far from over, claim senators
:

More than 400 scientists have in the past year alone challenged claims that global warming is caused by man, according to a report published last week by some of President George W Bush's allies in the US Senate.

[...]

The report also cites sceptical views advanced by current and former members of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which shared the Nobel Prize with Mr Gore.

Its authors say that they quote eight times as many scientists as the IPCC report published last year, which insisted there was a scientific consensus.

Panel member David Wojick, is quoted saying: "The public is not well served by this constant drumbeat of false alarms fed by computer models manipulated by advocates."

While physicist John Brosnahan, who works with the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, says: "I believe in global warming, and in global cooling - all part of the natural climate changes that the Earth has experienced for billions of years, caused primarily by cyclical variations in solar output."

 


Climate dissent grows hotter as chill deepens
:

Last week, virtually unreported in Britain, the extraordinary winter weather of 2008 elsewhere in the world continued. In the USA, there were blizzards as far south as Texas and Arkansas, while in northern states and Canada what they are calling "the winter from hell" has continued to break records going back in some cases to 1873. Meanwhile in Asia more details emerged of the catastrophe caused by the northern hemisphere's greatest snow cover since 1966.

In Afghanistan, where they have lost 300,000 cattle, the human death toll has risen above 1,500. In China, the havoc created by what its media call "the Winter Snow Disaster" has continued, not least in Tibet, where six months of snow and record low temperatures have killed 500,000 animals, leaving 3 million people on the edge of starvation.

It might have seemed timely that in New York an array of leading climatologists and other experts should have gathered for the most high-powered international conference yet to question the "consensus" on global warming. After three days of what the chairman called "the kind of free-spirited debate that is virtually absent from the global warming alarmist camp", the 500 delegates issued the Manhattan Declaration, stating that attempts by governments to reduce CO2 emissions would "markedly diminish further prosperity" while having "no appreciable impact" on the Earth's warming.

 


IPCC's 'evil twin' launches climate change sceptic's creed
:

A group of dissident scientists and climate researchers has affirmed that there is no convincing evidence that CO2 emissions from modern industrial activity cause climate change, and has called on world leaders to abandon all efforts to reduce emissions "forthwith." Issued last week at the close of the International Conference on Climate Change in New York, the Manhattan Declaration challenged the notion that a scientific consensus on climate change exists, and claimed that efforts at emissions reduction would diminish prosperity while having no appreciable impact.

The Declaration stems from the work of the Nongovermental International Panel on Climate Change (NIPCC), which one might term the evil twin of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which published a closely-argued report on the subject this month. The report takes the form of a critique of the IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report, which last year helped win the organisation a joint Nobel Peace Prize with Al Gore.

[...]

The report's arguments, however, probably deserve more than satirical remarks in response. The NIPCC, set up by a group of scientists at a workshop in Vienna last year, sets out to provide a "second opinion" on the data used by the IPCC and on its conclusions, factoring in 'inconvenient' research that it claims the IPCC has missed or ignored, and seeking to disrupt the widely-held global consensus that the questions surrounding climate change are settled. "The IPCC seems to be aware of... contrary evidence," says the report, "but has tried to ignore it or wish it away."

The report states that climate change has always happened and always will, and accepts that man-made CO2 emissions are growing, but argues that the effect on climate is insignificant. Solar activity, which it says has been pretty much ignored as a possible factor by the IPCC, is in the NIPCC's view the most likely cause of climate change.

[...]

The NIPCC's conclusions so far are that the global warming trend is less significant than claimed, as is the case with sea level rises, that the models used by the IPCC do not establish human activity as the main cause, and that this is possibly explained by their failure to take into account negative feedback. Accordingly, efforts spent on tackling CO2 emissions will have no significant effect on the 'problem', and will take resources away from more pressing issues.

So, the IPCC report is doing exactly what the liberals claim Bush did with the evidence leading up to the Iraq war: ignoring the inconvenient bits to support a pre-determined agenda. In that case they seem to call that lying.

Kind of makes you say, hmmm, eh?

In any event, the purported consensus continues to crumble. :(

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

…………

It appears I have awakened the sleeping beast!

Might take a look at some of this stuff this weekend and post some replies. Definitely not tonight though.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Meh

Had I realized that this was mostly about yet another Minority Report from our good friend James Inhofe, I would have just said "meh" last night! I'll just pull a quote from one of the many debunkings of this to be found:

The list of skeptics on the EPW blog contains few bona fide climate
specialists. In fact, the only criteria to get on the list, as far as I
can tell, is having a PhD and some credential that makes you an
academic. So Freeman Dyson makes lists. While I'm certain he's a smart
guy, I would not take a sick child to him, and I won't take a sick
planet to him either. In both cases, he simply does not have the
relevant specialist knowledge.

That also applies the large number of social scientists, computer
programmers, engineers, etc., without any specialist knowledge on this
problem.

The bottom line is that the opinions of most of the skeptics on the list are simply not credible.

 

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Meh, back.

People who can't back up their position try to claim they are "specialists" and therefore others just don't understand. It is a sign of a weak mind, actually. There is nothing special about being a climate scientist whatsoever. In the end it all comes back to basic scientific principles which all science and engineering students learn being applied to climate phenomena. They don't have any special skill at plotting data on a graph and interpretting the results. We all do it.

Reading the quote in your reply I see no scientific basis being presented to refute the arguments presented by these individuals, pretty much as expected, and therefore this is basically just and ad hominem argument . That's a logical fallacy, BTW, so we know that this doesn't mean anything in terms of refuting the arguments made.

I also notice that you have completely ignored the whole NIPCC angle as well.

I don't expect you to be convinced of anything, your mind is made up and so you are resistant to additional perspectives and contradictory data. I think one of those articles made this point more generally, actually. I recognize this characteristic in all of the alarmists. Closed minds are part of their safe little cocoon mentality. It has become standard fare in that community.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Pragmatism

Maybe one of these days you will accept the fact that I am not an "alarmist." I am a pragmatist. I have no problem believing that there is evidence to support both sides of this argument. But the fact remains that there is really good evidence on my side. Many of the so-called skeptics even say that it is fairly likely that man-made CO2 is responsible for the warming trend, they just quibble about how likely is likely, or how many inches the sea will rise, or how many 10ths of a degree the temp will go up.

And I see no compelling reason that we shouldn't be taking steps to reduce CO2 emissions drasticly. The economy will do just fine if we move away from fossil feuls to renewable sources. In fact, in the long run, it will probably do better. 

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Where did all the warming go?

I found this article to be an intersting read, perhaps you will was well:


Br-r-r! Where did global warming go?

THE STARK headline appeared just over a year ago. "2007 to be 'warmest on record,' " BBC News reported on Jan. 4, 2007. Citing experts in the British government's Meteorological Office, the story announced that "the world is likely to experience the warmest year on record in 2007," surpassing the all-time high reached in 1998.

But a funny thing happened on the way to the planetary hot flash: Much of the planet grew bitterly cold.

[...]

Closer to home, 44.5 inches of snow fell in New Hampshire last month, breaking the previous record of 43 inches, set in 1876. And the Canadian government is forecasting the coldest winter in 15 years .

Now all of these may be short-lived weather anomalies, mere blips in the path of the global climatic warming that Al Gore and a host of alarmists proclaim the deadliest threat we face. But what if the frigid conditions that have caused so much distress in recent months signal an impending era of global cooling?

"Stock up on fur coats and felt boots!" advises Oleg Sorokhtin , a fellow of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences and senior scientist at Moscow's Shirshov Institute of Oceanography. "The latest data . . . say that earth has passed the peak of its warmer period, and a fairly cold spell will set in quite soon, by 2012."

Sorokhtin dismisses the conventional global warming theory that greenhouse gases, especially human-emitted carbon dioxide, is causing the earth to grow hotter. Like a number of other scientists, he points to solar activity - sunspots and solar flares, which wax and wane over time - as having the greatest effect on climate.

[...]

So, could we be heading into a global cooling period now? Let's check the latest global temperature trends:

January 2008 - 4 sources say “globally cooler” in the past 12 months

January 2008 was an exceptional month for our planet, with a
significant cooling, especially since January 2007 started out well
above normal.

January 2008 capped a 12 month period of global temperature drops on all of the major well respected indicators. I have reported in the past two weeks that HadCRUT , RSS , UAH , and GISS global temperature sets all show sharp drops in the last year.

[Graphs Available in the Linked Article]

Whoa! It seems the global temperature is plummeting precipitously, at least over the past year which the climate scientists predicted to be the warmest on record having expected that it would surpass the current highpoint set in 1998. WTF? Maybe having "climate specialist" status doesn't mean as much as we have been lead to believe, eh?

Obviously one year of cooling does not create a lasting trend, but at the very least it throws some "cold water" on this ludicrous notion that these so called "climate specialists" have any "special insight" into what the weather is going to be like in the future. :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

…………

Brrrr

The year 2007 tied for second warmest in the period of instrumental
data, behind the record warmth of 2005, in the Goddard Institute for
Space Studies (GISS) analysis. 2007 tied 1998, which had leapt a
remarkable 0.2°C above the prior record with the help of the "El Niño
of the century". The unusual warmth in 2007 is noteworthy because it
occurs at a time when solar irradiance is at a minimum and the
equatorial Pacific Ocean is in the cool phase of its natural El Niño-La
Niña cycle.

So they predicted, in January 2007, that 2007 was 60% likely to be the warmest year on record, and, it was in fact the second warmest . Oh my, they must be idiots, to be so wildly wrong.

Thanks for bringing up another example of the media and it's obvious alarmist bias. 

(I trust that this was all dripping in sarcasm enough not to require emoticons.) 

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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I guess it might have been, on average using the GISS data ...

But did you even look at the graphs of the recent trends?

I wasn't going to copy his charts, but what the heck they are being hosted by wordpress.com and they won't notice the little blip on their traffic.*

Note that the alarmists have been "worrying" about an increase of roughly 0.65C which accumulated over almost 30 years. Now we just dropped almost that same amount in just 1 year. Note also that two of the 4 major measures have us below baseline at this point and that this drop occurred while we continued to pump more and more CO2 into the atmosphere. Gee, is that possible?  I thought more CO2 was going to make the temperature go up.  :)

OMG, pandimonium! The earth will never survive! The sky is falling, the sky is falling, we're all going to freeze! This would be the montra if the alarmists had decided to pick cooling as a meme instead of warming. It just demonstrates how ludicrous all of the hysteria is.

Note, if this current trend continues we may end up glad that we have been burning all those fossil fuels after all! :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

* January 2008 - 4 sources say “globally cooler” in the past 12 months :

Here are the 4 major temperature metrics compared top to bottom, with the most recently released at the top:

UK’s Hadley Climate Research Unit Temperature anomaly (HadCRUT) Dr. Phil Jones:hadcrut-jan08
Reference: above data is HadCRUT3 column 2 which can be found here
description of the HadCRUT3 data file columns is here
NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) Dr. James Hansen:GISS January Land-Sea Anomaly
Reference: GISS dataset temperature index data
University of Alabama, Huntsville (UAH) Dr. John Christy:UAH-monthly-anomaly-zoomed
Reference: UAH lower troposphere data
Remote Sensing Systems of Santa Rosa, CA (RSS):rss-msu-2007-2008-delta520.png
Reference: RSS data here (RSS Data Version 3.1)

The purpose of this summary is to make it easy for everyone to compare the last 4 postings I’ve made on this subject.

I realize that not all the graphs are of the same scale, so my next
task will be to run a combined graphic of all the data-sets on
identical amplitude and time scales to show the agreements or
differences such a graph would illustrate.

UPDATE: that comparison has been done here

Here is a quick comparison and average of ∆T for all metrics shown above:

Source: Global ∆T °C
HadCRUT

- 0.595

GISS - 0.750
UAH - 0.588
RSS - 0.629
Average: - 0.6405°C

For all four metrics the global average ∆T for January 2007 to January 2008 is: - 0.6405°C

 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

And this proves

That we had a cold January. So what?

I know what you are trying to imply by this statement:

 Note that the alarmists have been "worrying" about an increase of
roughly 0.65C which accumulated over almost 30 years. Now we just
dropped almost that same amount in just 1 year.

But let's go right to the source of your graphs and see what he has to say:

I wish to state for the record, that this statement is not mine: “–a value large enough to erase nearly all the global warming recorded over the past 100 years”

There has been no “erasure”. This is an anomaly with a large
magnitude, and it coincides with other anecdotal weather evidence. It
is curious, it is unusual, it is large, it is unexpected, but it does
not “erase” anything.

 

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent

Already covered that above ...

Obviously one year of cooling does not create a lasting trend, but at
the very least it throws some "cold water" on this ludicrous notion
that these so called "climate specialists" have any "special insight"
into what the weather is going to be like in the future. :)

Let's keep up with the conversation.  The interesting question will be what happens going forward, eh?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

the interesting question

I'm keeping up with the conversation just fine, thanks. I have already explained why this does not throw any cold water on the expertise of the climate scientists. (60% chance of being warmest is not at all a bad prediction, when the actual result was tied for second warmest.) Since you also admit that a single measurement has no real relevance on overall trends, then I guess you could say that the interesting question will be what happens going forward. Of course, it is not that interesting of a question, since the answer is agreed upon to about a 90% probability.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

………… parent