Meet Barney Frank, the point man in Congress on the economy!

At the height of the housing bubble in 2005, Massachusetts Democrat Barney Frank gave a boilerplate speech on the House floor in support of a meaningless resolution to honor National Home Ownership Month. This speech, forgettable at the time, reveals much of what is wrong with our legislative process, and gives insight into the complacency that has found us at the precipice of the most severe economic crisis since the Great Depression.

Barney Frank, June 27, 2005:

I am very pleased to join in support of this resolution. Indeed, I was a prime cosponsor. The main sponsor is our colleague, the gentleman from California (Mr. Gary G. Miller), who comes to Congress with a distinguished record himself in building homes.

Distinguished record, indeed-- if you're willing to overlook Congressman Miller's federal tax evasion, making false statements in connection with land sales, and misuse of Congressional staff in connection with a land sale...

This is a very important resolution, particularly at this time, because we have, I think, an excessive degree of concern right now about homeownership and its role in the economy.

Yes, Congressman Frank-- it was much more important in 2005 to pass a resolution recognizing National Home Ownerhsip Month than to listen to the "excessive" concerns of those who were warning that the housing bubble was about to burst.

Obviously, speculation is never a good thing. But those who argue that housing prices are now at the point of a bubble seem to be missing a very important point. Unlike previous examples, where substantial excessive inflation of prices later caused some problems, we are talking here about an entity, homeownership, homes, where there is not the degree of leverage that we have seen elsewhere.

"Not the degree of leverage??" The plain fact is that, as he spoke, the housing bubble was being fueled by historic amounts of leverage . A transaction whereby a person can gain control of an asset worth half a million dollars or more with a 3% down payment represents 33 to 1 leverage (debt to equity) for the homebuyer. For comparison, this is ten times the amount of leverage which is available to most people for common stock purchase on margin in retail brokerage accounts. And, unlike homeowners, most retail shareholders use no financial leverage at all-- part of the reason why the housing bubble is so much more dangerous to the economy than the dot-com bubble was.

And Mr. Frank, supposedly one of the foremost experts in the House on matters of banking and finance, must have also been ignorant of the fact that hedge funds were busily concocting byzantine layerings of financial instruments to create mortgage-backed securites which themselves could be leveraged 30 to 1. While Mr. Frank was asleep at the wheel, hedge funds were engaged in perhaps the most reckless use of leverage in history.

This is not the dot-com situation. We had problems with people having invested in business plans for which there was no reality and people building fiber-optic cable for which there was no need. Homes that are occupied may see an ebb and flow in the price at a certain percentage level, but you will not see the collapse that you see when people talk about a bubble.

Wow.

I guess when you're absolutely dead wrong about a situation that ends up costing the economy trillions, it's only natural that you get appointed as the Chairman of the House Financial Services Committee the next time the seat needs filled...

So those of us on our committee in particular will continue to push for homeownership. And I very much agree with the gentleman from Ohio who has chaired the Subcommittee on housing and Community Opportunity of the Committee on Financial Services about the importance of this and about the various ways in which we do that.

That gentleman from Ohio to which Mr. Frank is referring is none other than Congressman Bob Ney, who was soon to be tried and convicted for various corrupt activities.

Obviously, the market will take care of a large number of people, but it will not take care of everybody. And if we are going to expand homeownership, there will have to be a sensible set of public policies, such as reducing the downpayment in the FHA, such as protecting people from lending practices that may at first seem to benefit them but then victimize them. And I hope our committee will pass legislation that will protect people against that.

Of course among the most damaging and least sensible policies were those which encouraged buyers to purchase homes with virtually no equity cushion. FHA loans were available with a 3% downpayment, with assistance often available to meet that tiny downpayment with a second mortgage if the buyer didn't have the cash, but even those minimal requirements were too much, according to Mr. Frank. In essence, Mr. Frank was suggesting that FHA could back the equivalent of subprime mortgages with federal insurance. If Mr. Frank had gotten his way, the taxpayer would be footing the bill for all these bad loans right now.

I just want to add, as I bring these remarks to a close, Mr. Speaker, and I enjoyed working with the gentleman from California (Mr. Gary G. Miller), that I want to pay tribute to a couple of organizations that have done a good deal to help us with this. I found the National Association of Home Builders has been a very constructive participant in our efforts to promote homeownership. The National Association of Realtors has also played a very useful role in helping us shape public policies that expand homeownership.

Good thing that nobody slipped some truth serum into Barney Frank's lunch, because otherwise, he might have said this:

I just want to add, as I bring these remarks to a close, Mr. Speaker,
and I enjoyed working with the crook from California (Mr. Gary G. Miller),
that I want to pay tribute to a couple of organizations that have bought their way into the legislative process to further the narrow self interests of their dues-paying membership. I found the National Association of Home Builders has been very generous to my campaigns in the past to the tune of $35,500. The National Association of Realtors has also ponied up $62,000 to my past campaigns , so I let them shape public policies that will keep the commission checks flowing to Realtors.

* * *

The fact that Mr. Frank was dead wrong at the height of the housing bubble does not stop him from positioning himself now as the guy who knew it all along. Chairing a hearing last September entitled "Recent Events in the Credit and Mortgage Markets and Possible Implications for U.S. Consumers and the Global Economy" , Frank conveniently forgot how he dismissed the existence of any housing bubble just two years earlier, and instead shamelessly said this:

We will be focusing today on the question of what happened in the market situation, and my concern is this: For some time now, we have seen the subprime crisis. I believe that those in charge were a little bit surprised that the subprime crisis spilled over as such as it did into other parts of the mortgage market. And more specifically, you know, you are supposed to pretend that you don’t ike to say, ‘‘I told you so.’’ But as I have said before, I find that to be one of the few pleasures that come with age.

 

I guess it takes a long measure of hubris and a short memory to serve in Congress nowadays...

 

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Holy Cow I missed this somehow

Good dairy...... yes the homebuilders buying off folks in Congress. In my view they ambitious plan of build, build, build, has been another integral part of this whole sub-prime mess.

ON the streets in my town, they have built up the place like crazy. Every square inch was up for profit making.

Frank....... guilty as charged.

…………

Holy Christ!

In my view [the home builder's] ambitious plan of build, build, build, has been another integral part of this whole sub-prime mess.

Why imagine that. People who depend on building homes for their livelyhood wanting to, you know, build homes and sell them. Those nefarious bastards! Why would anyone want people to own homes anyway?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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No problem with owning

No problem owning a home, but there is one when you think you need to build one when there are an ample amount of houses already built. It is socially irresponsible to build a house for yourself when you have a plethora of houses already built that you could buy at any time.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

GoRight = as naive as they come

Or maybe just a clever switch from this:

Why imagine that. People who depend on building homes for their livelyhood wanting to, you know, build homes and sell them.

To this:

Why would anyone want people to own homes anyway?

But of course the NAR and the NAHB were narrowly concerned with SELLING houses, not HOME OWNERSHIP. This was one of the root causes of the housing crisis-- the selling of massive numbers of houses to people who could not afford to own them.

Yes, the homebuilders and the realtors want to sell homes, but you're naive if you think that realtors and homebuilders had the same concern regarding home ownership as they did over the initial sale, where they get paid. They were just as happy to sell to investors, speculators, and people whose shaky finances put them at risk as far as maintaining ownership over the long term. After all, they got paid just the same.

Of course the chickens are coming home to roost now.

………… parent

Actually, you're wrong skymutt.

But of course the NAR and the NAHB were narrowly concerned with SELLING houses, not HOME OWNERSHIP.

Because without HOME OWNERSHIP you can't SELL HOUSES, ergo if you want to SELL MORE HOUSES you are inherently interested in INCREASING HOME OWNERSHIP.

That's not being naive, it's just common sense logic.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Not necessarily

Not necessarily.

Once I own a house I'm a home owner. If I buy another house without selling the one I live in now, I'm still a home owner; the total number of home owners haven't increased. That purchase had little to do to with home ownership since no new owners were created.

Usually selling houses has a lot to do with home ownership. In a speculative market, it has less to do with ownership as it does simply making a profit on an investment.

Now, you didn't say the goal was to maximize the number of home owners, but that is the general goal behind the idea that home ownership is a good idea. When people own their home they take better care of it which leads to better communities. I prefer the one-liner "no one has ever washed a rental car".

Anyone who owns more than one house is most likely speculating, which gives us a lower rate of return on the community-building values.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

………… parent

A fair point, sort of ...

If I buy another house without selling the one I live in now, I'm still
a home owner; the total number of home owners haven't increased.

While it is true that the "total number of home owners" has not increased, even this situtation increases the "amount of home ownership" in some sense (i.e. the total number of homes owned by private citizens). So I'm not sure that I accept your stated measure of "home ownership" 100% but clearly that is a factor.

From the perspective of a home builder, however, they are happy enough to sell someone a second house. But the number of such people is limited, I think you will agree, so the builders still have an inherent interest in seeing the number of home owners increase as well.

Bottom line, therefore, your point suggests that the total size of the market for homes is larger than I was considering but that doesn't eliminate the segment of the market I was discussing. I think that my point is still valid.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I'm not sure what...

I'm not sure what you're saying throughout this thread.

I think its quite clear by skymutt's statement that skymutt meant Home owners by "home ownership"

And if home builders build a new house that they haven't sold, technically that would fall under goRight's definition of "home ownership". A home builder with finished goods inventory is not too good of a thing in a slow market.

And flooding the market of new houses and giving people high interest loans that they cannot pay back only hurts everyone in the long run, unless the gov't bails them out.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Nope

Beyond the investment angle which stinerman brought up, there's the issue of people being sold homes they could not afford to own over the medium and long term.  So lots of homes were sold, but home ownership was not promoted because the people who bought the homes haven't been able to make they payment and have had to hand the keys back to the back to the bank, at which point they no longer own the home.

 

 

 

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Who should be held responsible for buyers ...

... there's the issue of people being sold homes they could not afford to own over the medium and long term.

agreeing to terms which they could not afford?  Who is responsible for insuring that when YOU buy something that YOU can afford it, YOU or the SELLER?

Stated more appropriately, you point would be "there's the issue of people BUYING homes they could not afford to own over the medium and long term."  No one forced anyone to buy anything.

The sellers in this case were making homes available on very good terms from the financial perspective of the buyers.  The sellers are NOT responsible for the buyer's failure to meet their obligations nor for the rate adjustments which are tied to an industry index of some sort.  These terms were clearly stated up front and were in no way stacked against the buyer.

Variable rate mortgages have been around for decades, they are nothing new to the housing market and they generally provide a lower interest rate than the fixed rate mortgages which are available at the same time that you signed up for the variable rate.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Massive shifting of the goalposts

Who should be held responsible for agreeing to terms which they could not afford?  Who is responsible for
insuring that when YOU buy something that YOU can afford it, YOU or the
SELLER?

The buyer, of course, should bear the ultimate responsibility.  But that's not what we were talking about here.  We were talking about whether the NAR and the NAHB were "inherently interested in increasing home ownership" when Frank was letting them formulate federal housing policy in 2005. My argument would be that these organizations and their brethren in the lending industry were too busy pushing the boom in 2005 to even be troubled with being "interested in increasing [sustainable] home ownership".  No, the focus of these industries was on transactions, and transactions in volume, not on medium and long term outcomes.

Stated more appropriately, you point would be "there's the issue of
people BUYING homes they could not afford to own over the medium and
long term."  

This statement is not any more valid than my statement, given that yes, homes are bought, but they are indeed sold as well.  And since we were talking about the NAHB, an organization that is certainly on the selling side of the housing equation, my statement was appropriate and relevant.

The sellers in this case were making homes available on very good terms from the financial perspective of the buyers.  The sellers are NOT responsible for the buyer's failure to meet their
obligations nor for the rate adjustments which are tied to an industry
index of some sort.  These terms were clearly stated up front and were
in no way stacked against the buyer.

Very naive on your part, and the "terms clearly stated up front" is a laugh.  Yes, it is the buyer's responsibility to determine the terms of any agreement they enter in to, but if you think that the typical mortgage broker, realtor, or home builder is more interested in clearly stating terms up front than seeing that the transaction goes thru so they get paid, you just don't understand human nature.  Fact is, many subprime homebuyers at the height of the bubble had no business qualifying for the mortgages they got; the lenders knew it, the realtors knew it, and the homebuilders knew it, but to get transactions to go through, they necessarily had to withhold or soft-pedal critical information about the nature of the obligation the buyer was entering into. 

 

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Yea, on your part ...

The buyer, of course, should bear the ultimate responsibility.

So far so good.

My argument would be that these organizations and their brethren in the lending industry were too busy pushing the boom in 2005 to even be troubled with being "interested in increasing [sustainable] home ownership". No, the focus of these industries was on transactions, and transactions in volume, not on medium and long term outcomes.

And this is where you (attempt to) shift the responsibility from the buyer to the sellers, which is of course bogus by your own admission above.

This statement is not any more valid than my statement ...

I never claimed it was more or less valid than yours, I only claimed that it was stated more appropriately (i.e. with the emphasis of who's responsible where it belongs ... with the buyer).

Very naive on your part, and the "terms clearly stated up front" is a laugh.

Why is this a laugh? I would bet you a thousand dollars that each and every one of these loans had the terms spelled out in black and white and it wasn't even buried in the fine print. The terms will have been prominantly laid out in no uncertain terms as required by law. They would have not only been told the terms but they would also have been clearly notified of the total amount of interest that they would pay in the worstacse scenario since, for a variable rate mortgage, that is all they CAN provide.

If the buyer doesn't bother to read and understand the documents that they sign is that the fault of the seller? We are talking about buyers who are legaly competent to enter into contracts, obviously.

... but if you think that the typical mortgage broker, realtor, or home builder is more interested in clearly stating terms up front than seeing that the transaction goes thru so they get paid, you just don't understand human nature.

Well, unless I am mistaken, if they fail to state those terms clearly up front they would be breaking the law, so yea, I expect that they really ARE interested in stating them clearly up front. And if that doesn't convince you, consider the effects that failing to do so might have on their rights under the transaction: Truth-in-Lending Disclosure Failure Leads to Mortgage becoming "UnSecured"

If you think that the people lending this money aren't going to vigorously protect their financial interests in terms of the mortgage collateral, well you just don't understand human nature. :)

I don't know how many realtors and lenders you have ever dealt with but in my experience they are ALWAYS up front about these things to the point that they have standard forms that they use so that the resulting mortgages can be resold into the secondary markets. Without having the proper paperwork they are stuck holding the mortgage themselves, which for many mortgage houses is NOT the business plan.

Fact is, many subprime homebuyers at the height of the bubble had no
business qualifying for the mortgages they got; the lenders knew it,
the realtors knew it, and the homebuilders knew it, but to get
transactions to go through, they necessarily had to withhold or
soft-pedal critical information about the nature of the obligation the
buyer was entering into
.

Well, skymutt, this is a pretty serious charge on your part under the circumstances I have highlighted above, and not one that you get to make out of hand. Do you actually have anything to back this statement up other than the waving of your hand?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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My goalposts stand steady and strong, unlike yours

And this is where you (attempt to) shift the responsibility from the
buyer to the sellers, which is of course bogus by your own admission
above.

Not shifting "the responsibility" at all since we are talking about the responsibility for two different things.  The buyer is ultimately responsible for their homebuying decision, but the homebuilders, realtors, lenders etc. all bear a great deal of responisbility for the housing crisis.

If the buyer doesn't bother to read and understand the documents that
they sign is that the fault of the seller? We are talking about buyers
who are legaly competent to enter into contracts, obviously.

Look, I work for a title company so I know a few things about closings.  So yes, we know that people are supposed to read and understand the docs, but when, for example, a buyer asks a question at a closing and they are told "don't worry, that's normal" or similar when they ask about a particular item, and it's really an item that demands a little bit better explanation than that, are you going to deny that the expert at the table is complicit in any misunderstanding that the buyer has regarding that item?

Well, unless I am mistaken, if they fail to state those terms favicon
clearly up front they would be breaking the law, so yea, I expect that
they really ARE interested in stating them clearly up front. And if
that doesn't convince you, consider the effects that failing to do so
might have on their rights under the transaction: Truth-in-Lending Disclosure Failure Leads to Mortgage becoming "UnSecured" favicon

If you think that the people lending this money aren't going to
vigorously protect their financial interests in terms of the mortgage
collateral, well you just don't understand human nature. :)

Yet, despite your claim of the lenders "vigorously protect[ing] their financial interests", I found this snippet in your second link:

The subprime market has been known for its lax standards in
documentation...

Gee, that doesn't sound like they were vigorously protecting their financial interests!  They've opened themselves up to a pack of lawsuits.  Why would the subprime lenders act in a manner so seemingly contrary to their financial interests?

This is why:  

In the last four years or so, mortgage standards became lax because
each link in the mortgage chain collected profits while believing it
was passing on risk to the next link in the chain.
Brokers weren't
lending their own money, so they were pushing risks onto the lenders.
Lenders sold mortgages soon after underwriting them, pushing the risk
onto investors. Investment banks bought the mortgages and chopped up
mortgage-backed securities into slices, with some slices being less
risky and other slices being more risky. Investors bought securities
and hedged against the risk of default and prepayment, pushing those
risks further along.

Make sense?

Well, skymutt, this is a pretty serious charge on your part under the
circumstances I have highlighted above, and not one that you get to
make out of hand. Do you actually have anything to back this statement
up other than the waving of your hand?

Can I pull a "Trent Lott" here?  The horror stories abound on the internet if you wish to look for them.  A good place to start might be Richard Bitner's (sp?) new book-- hes a former owner of a subprime lending outfit who wrote a tell-all.

………… parent

But in a completely different spot from where they started ...

Not shifting "the responsibility" at all since we are talking about the
responsibility for two different things. The buyer is ultimately
responsible for their homebuying decision, but the homebuilders,
realtors, lenders etc. all bear a great deal of responisbility for the
housing crisis.

Sorry, nope. If the crisis is being caused by people defaulting on their loans, then it is the buyer's responsibility not the seller's or the lender's. The terms were known up front, simple as that.

Look, I work for a title company so I know a few things about
closings. So yes, we know that people are supposed to read and
understand the docs, but when, for example, a buyer asks a question at
a closing and they are told "don't worry, that's normal" or similar
when they ask about a particular item, and it's really an item that
demands a little bit better explanation than that, are you going to
deny that the expert at the table is complicit in any misunderstanding
that the buyer has regarding that item?

Look, I've been to a few closings so I know a few things about closings too! :)

And strictly speaking, it is still the buyer's responsibility to make certain they understand what they are signing and agreeing to. They can choose to accept, "don't worry that's normal" or not, but accepting that is inherently accepting that they don't understand it and are, therefore, accepting any risk associated therewith. It was still their decision.

And it's not like we are talking about any of the picky little minutiae buried in those mountains of paperwork, we're talking about the terms of the interest rate and what it can do over time. That is the primary attribute of the loan. Are you suggesting that these places were being so lax as to completely hide the terms of the loan from the buyers AND that the buyers just went along based on a "that's normal" in the closing?

I'm sorry but I just can't believe it was that bad or poorly handled.

I will agree that many people are probably ignorant in this area and simply rely on the experts to keep things straight and above board. In many (most?) cases the buyer has a realtor who is supposed to be an expert that is looking out after their interests on what's "normal" or not. If any is to blame other than the buyer themselves then my first target of blame would be the buyer's realtor.

Gee, that doesn't sound like they were vigorously protecting their
financial interests! They've opened themselves up to a pack of
lawsuits.

Doh! That will teach me for not reading the entire piece. Bah.

While I agree with your statement I don't think that it affects the validity of my points. They are still correct in their substance: (1) they are legally required to disclose the terms, and (2) it is in their financial interests to do so.

Make sense?

If you are asking, do I understand what you said the answer is yes. Obviously this scenario doesn't make sound financial sense on any front.

Perhaps we are talking past each other a tad here. When I read your piece I took it to mean: oh gee, look how these evil corporations conspired to force these helpless buyers into untenable positions. I simply balk at that very notion, the buyers bear the brunt of the reponsibility if they default on their loans. Period. End of story.

Were the lendors and the builders and the realtors pushing the envelope? Probably. But even so I stand by my comment that they were providing a seriously good deal to the buyers at the time. Several years at below prime rate is a good thing, especially up front. The fact that the index rates went sour on them isn't really the lender's fault, is it?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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my goalposts are like the sun, yours are like a planet

My goalposts appear to move from your goalposts' perspective, but it is only because your goalposts are moving.  Mine are actually quite stationary :-)

If the crisis is being caused by people defaulting on
their loans, then it is the buyer's responsibility not the seller's or
the lender's. The terms were known up front, simple as that.

The financial crisis has also been caused by institutions who bought up the bonds created from these shaky mortgages, and did so in many cases with 20x and 30x leverage, without understanding the amount of risk they were assuming.  It has aslo been caused, of course, by lenders who have made massive amounts of loans that the borrower could not pay back, at terms that did not reflect this risk.  Why single out the stupid decisions of homebuyers in placing blame for the crisis when it is obviously only one leg of the stool?

If any is to blame other than the buyer themselves then my first target of blame would be the buyer's realtor.

Not untrue, but you do understand the inherent conflict of interest that the buyer's realtor has in that they do not get paid unless and until the deal is closed, right?  In that respect they are indistinguishable from the other parties at the table.

While I agree with your statement I don't think that it affects the
validity of my points. They are still correct in their substance: (1)
they are legally required to disclose the terms, and (2) it is in their
financial interests to do so.

Perception matters, not the truth, in a bubble situation.  In 2005, the perception, by and large, was that (2) it was in the financial interest of the lender to make as many loans as possible, and it would have only been in their perceived financial interest to be clear, open, and honest in disclosing terms if that disclosure would help to get the loan made.  

When I read your piece I took it to mean: oh gee, look how these evil
corporations conspired to force these helpless buyers into untenable
positions. I simply balk at that very notion, the buyers bear the brunt
of the reponsibility if they default on their loans.

I have no idea where you get that from this diary.  While I do feel that we'd have had a lot fewer defaults if the lenders and others in the housing industry had done their jobs well, I have never said nor implied that individual homebuyers do not bear responsibility for their mortgage and I have said on numerous occasions, though not here, that I do not support bailouts etc. for these homebuyers. 

I think a more fair summation of my diary is "look at how our legislators were snoozing while the housing industry pushed us towards a housing collapse."

The fact that the index rates went sour on them isn't really the lender's fault, is it?

But the interest rates didn't really explode or anything, they just went up a point or two from historic lows.  People aren't defaulting because just because interest rates rose, they are defaulting because they have interest-only or negative amortization loans which are designed in such a way that the payments explode over time even if interest rates do not rise at all.  My 5/1 ARM looks downright conservative compared to many of these newer mortgage products.  So your claim in the previous post that vairable rate mortgage products have been around for awhile fails to acknowledge the sharp trend towards deferred principal payments, which is indeed a recent phenomenon.

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Even the sun moves in the greater context of the galaxy ...

or the universe, and my goal posts are firmly planted at the center of mass of the entire universe! :)

Why single out the stupid decisions of homebuyers in placing blame for
the crisis when it is obviously only one leg of the stool?

I'm not singling them out for anything other than taking responsibility for their own decisions. You want the lenders and realtors to be reponsible for their decisions, which is bogus.

Not untrue, but you do understand the inherent conflict of interest
that the buyer's realtor has in that they do not get paid unless and
until the deal is closed, right? In that respect they are
indistinguishable from the other parties at the table.

Yes I understand this. The distinction between the buyer's realtor and everyone else, though, is exactly what I said: they are the buyer's expert representative whereas none of the others are.

Can I assume that "Not untrue" equals "True" in skymuttese? :)

I have no idea where you get that from this diary.

I got it from the fact that you are 100% focused (in the original piece, not in the comments) on (1) Barney Frank listened to the corporate interests, (2) Barney Frank rejected anything the naysayers had to say, (3) the corporate interests were only serving their own interests and not the interests of the buyers, (4) the corporate interests were obviously buying their way to the table with donations, and (5) everyone involved in your description above was corrupt. Did I miss anything?

I think a more fair summation of my diary is "look at how our
legislators were snoozing while the housing industry pushed us towards
a housing collapse."

See, nothing about the role the buyers played in all this. I agree that this is a reasonable summation for the piece, but it also highlights my point about it being one sided. To use your own phrase, why single out the corporate side of the housing industry when they are only one leg of the stool? :)

People aren't defaulting because just because interest rates rose, they are defaulting because they have interest-only or negative amortization
loans which are designed in such a way that the payments explode over
time even if interest rates do not rise at all. My 5/1 ARM looks
downright conservative compared to many of these newer mortgage
products. So your claim in the previous post that vairable rate
mortgage products have been around for awhile fails to acknowledge the
sharp trend towards deferred principal payments, which is indeed a
recent phenomenon.

This part I was honestly unaware of. Anyone who signs onto an interest-only and especially a negative amortization loan is just bonkers, IMHO. I agree that the very notion of these types of instruments constitutes what you would call predatory lending practices. Clearly they are because they are heavily weighted against the buyer ever getting out from under the debt. They are clearly designed to be exploitative in nature and, personally, I would support banning them IF I believed that the government should be involved in such things, which I don't. So we are left with buyer beware in the free market of lending pratices.

That being said, however, I still come back to the buyer is the one who agreed to those terms. No one forced them to enter into those agreements, so the bulk of the responsibility is still with the buyer if they default.

 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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………… parent

Your goalposts may be at the center of the universe...

...but they were somewhere else at the beginning of this thread, and you moved them there.

I'm not singling [homebuyers] out for anything other than taking responsibility for their own decisions.  You want the lenders and realtors to be reponsible for their decisions, which is bogus.

Total and utter fabrication on your part.  I am not suggesting that the lenders and realtors taking responsibility for anything other than their own role in the housing crisis.  I have neer suggested that homebuyers should be made to take anything other than full responsibility for their own poor decisions-- I have never suggested that lenders and realtors should be made to pay for the mistakes of homebuyers, and I have consistently opposed bailouts such as reset freezes and so forth which favor those buyers who have chosen riskier loans over their more prudent neighbors.  IMO, it is up to the courts to determine if any realtor or lender, due to fraud or other misconduct, is responsible to make whole any homebuyer for an individual deal gone bad.

Can I assume that "Not untrue" equals "True" in skymuttese? :)

In skymuttese, "not untrue" means roughly "true, but not the whole story by any stretch of the imagination". 

See, nothing about the role the buyers played in all this.

That's only because this diary is not about the buyer.  But it's not as if I have not made my views clear regarding the role of the people regarding their financial decisions-- I have repeatedly said that they should lose their homes if they can't pay, with no taxpayer-funded bailout, and no forced rate freezes.  You can only say I am one sided if you can find elsewhere where I have been overly charitable to the borrower who is in default because they took on more than they could chew.  Well, let me save you the effort of looking, because you won't find it.  I have been consistently critical of the individual and aggregate decision-making of the American borrower.  See "We the people are financially irresponsible" , for instance.

That being said, however, I still come back to the buyer is the one who
agreed to those terms. No one forced them to enter into those
agreements, so the bulk of the responsibility is still with the buyer
if they default.

As far as the "responsibiliy" gets apportioned in a fair manner in these matters in terms of the direct financial pain-- the buyer loses the home, including any downpayment they made, and takes a big hit to their credit, while the lender gets possession of an asset that usually is not worth the principal which they were owed.  Both sides made bad decisions, and sides lose.  I have no problem with this.

But I do happen to believe that the government should regulate the mortgage industry, and should have taken a different path in the years leading up to the peak of the housing bubble, including limits/bans on some of the most ridiculous types of loans that were cropping up. 

………… parent

Not to mention that

Not to mention that contributory negligence of the homebuyers doesn't mean the "homebuidlers/lenders" don't bear the brunt of the blame.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

………… parent

This has been the primary discussion in this sub thread ...

and yet you still want to put the largest part of the blame on the homebuilders/lenders? Interesting. Let me boil the discuss thus far down into a simply scenario and see where you stand ...

  1. Home Buyer A seeks financing with Lender B.
  2. Lender B suggests a negative amortization loan which minimized Home Buyer A's payments in the early years of the loan, but requires larger payments 5 years down the road.
  3. This is all explained to Home Buyer A up front using the TILA guidelines.
  4. Home Buyer A accepts this offer.
  5. Five years later Home Buyer A is unable to make the larger payments and defaults on the loan.

Who bears the majority of the responsibility for the default, Home Buyer A or Lender B?

I claim it is Home Buyer A because no one forced them to accept these terms.

Now, multiply this same scenario by thousands or millions (whatever the case actually is in the current situation). So, who bears the largest part of the blame over-all, Home Buyers or Lenders?

Again, I claim it is the Home Buyers not the Lenders for the very same reasons.

I am not saying that the Lenders are 100% blameless here but the lion's share goes to the Home Buyers in my opinion.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Lets make and sell washing machines to those without electricity

Maybe I'm missing the boat.

But didn't the housing bubble burst in large part to homebuilders building homes when there wasn't a viable market for those new houses? Weren't the homebuilders building and selling houses to people that were not likely to actually pay for the houses. Thats the premise behind what I'm saying.
If the preceding was true, then making a product that has low liquidity for a market that is highly likely to default on payments is not wise. Selling a product is not the same as making money of a product.

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Since your goal posts are moving relative to the center of mass

my goal posts only appear to be moving from your perspective ala the same logic you used in your Sun/Planet scenario.  My goal posts are right where they have always been.

I am declaring the particular horse beaten.  We seem to agree that there is blame on both sides (buyers and lenders), but perhaps disagree on where the split lands between the two.  My comments here were focused on this particular diary and its contents, not your more general positions, just FYI. 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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They do teach ethics in business school.

The sellers are NOT responsible for the buyer's failure to meet their obligations nor for the rate adjustments which are tied to an industry index of some sort.

There is some contributory negligence, but the brunt of the blame has to fall on the side that is far and away better informed. Those loans weren't given to people before for good reasons. Borrowers aren't perfectly informed and approving people for loans gives the impression that the borrower has qualified to do so.

If the buyer doesn't bother to read and understand the documents that they sign is that the fault of the seller? We are talking about buyers who are legaly competent to enter into contracts, obviously.

I would like to know what you definition of "legally competent' is. The buyers have the legal capacity to make contracts, but competency implies that contracts are more or less a common sense thing, which they are inherently not.

I don't know how many realtors and lenders you have ever dealt with but in my experience they are ALWAYS up front about these things to the point that they have standard forms that they use so that the resulting mortgages can be resold into the secondary markets. Without having the proper paperwork they are stuck holding the mortgage themselves, which for many mortgage houses is NOT the business plan.

Buyers saying they understand something doesn't mean they actually understanding something. Signing those statements just means they were "warned", understanding that there was even a warning or what the warning was about are different things than signing one's name to a piece of paper.

Sorry, nope. If the crisis is being caused by people defaulting on their loans, then it is the buyer's responsibility not the seller's or the lender's. The terms were known up front, simple as that.

Ya, and "They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash. "

And it's not like we are talking about any of the picky little minutiae buried in those mountains of paperwork, we're talking about the terms of the interest rate and what it can do over time. That is the primary attribute of the loan. Are you suggesting that these places were being so lax as to completely hide the terms of the loan from the buyers AND that the buyers just went along based on a "that's normal" in the closing?

I believe you put too much trust in the ability of your fellow man to do math.

If a History major from an Ivy League school didn't realize that there are 2 main sects of Islam that hate each other, then how are most people expected to understand their loans and predict their expected future earnings?

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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What you are missing GR......

Is the myth that you own your home. What you own is the debt.

Try missing a mortgage payment or two and see if you really 'own' your home.

_____

The trick of course is getting the debt/equity to work for you.

Debt/credit was used to stimulate the economy by getting folks to borrow and spend. It gave the appearance that the economy was thriving in spite of stagnant wages and an expensive war.

______

In my neck of the woods, huge housing developments were popping up like mushrooms.

The farmers to the North had their water rights usurped so the new home owners could take showers. Hundred year old farms had their water rights evaporate.
_____

Once the sub-prime mess set in, the construction company based out of Chicago ran out of liquidity, declared bankruptcy, leaving those who had paid thousands up front for the new home with nothing but a hole in their pockets.

The construction company can declare bankruptcy and skip out on their obligation.

The homeowners are not allowed to negotiate to lower their interest rates in a bankruptcy court. It would be helpful if they could.

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And so are you ML ...

Is the myth that you own your home. What you own is the debt.

Try missing a mortgage payment or two and see if you really 'own' your home.

Nope, it is no myth.  You actually DO own your home.  Go down to the county recorders office and check it out, their paperwork has YOU listed as the owner.

Now if you happened to borrow money to make the purchase of your home, you undoubtedly gave someone (a bank?) a promissary note in which you agreed to repay their loaned money under certain contractual obligations such as a certain interest rate.  As collateral you may, or may not as the case may be, have agreed to put up YOUR HOME that YOU OWN to cover the debt in the case that you fail to meet your obligations.

Should you default on your obligations, the holder of the note (the bank?) has the right to demand that you TRANSFER ownership of YOUR HOME to THEM.  Only after this transfer does the holder of the promissary note actually gain control of the home in question.

The trick of course is getting the debt/equity to work for you.

Debt/credit was used to stimulate the economy by getting folks to
borrow and spend. It gave the appearance that the economy was thriving
in spite of stagnant wages and an expensive war.

MissL's own version of "voodoo economics."

In my neck of the woods, huge housing developments were popping up like mushrooms.

The farmers to the North had their water rights usurped so the new
home owners could take showers. Hundred year old farms had their water
rights evaporate.

Have you considered contacting ELF about this?

The construction company can declare bankruptcy and skip out on their obligation.

As can the homeowners.  Bankruptcy does not benefit corporations over people.

 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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I think she's mostly right

I'll echo ML's sentiments on credit. The average American doesn't make enough money to buy the goods and services needed to keep the economy afloat. This is mostly due to economic gains going disproportionately to the people who already have enough money to buy the goods and services they want. As Robert Reich says, rich people don't spend most of their money -- that's why they're rich. Easy credit allowed people to keep their standards of living flat even though their wages were not keeping up. The last economic expansion was put on the card.

Bankruptcy does not benefit corporations over people.

I'll give you that, but corporations can simply dissolve their charter. The only analog to real people is to kill oneself, not exactly a real choice.

Only chapter 7 bankruptcy, which is incredibly hard to get, approaches the financial benefits of simply dissolving a corporation.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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I disagree.

The average American doesn't make enough money to buy the goods and services needed to keep the economy afloat.

For the most part it IS the buying power of the average American that keeps the economy afloat ... especially if I accept your canard that the rich don't spend their money (which is why they are rich).

It is the sheer numbers of the average Americans as an aggregate that gives them the buying power we are talking about.

Let me turn this around on you a bit, if it is NOT the average American's buying power that keeps the economy going, whose is it?  You just said that the rich aren't spending, so who else is? 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Duh.......

The rich are spending but the uber rich are investing overseas to protect their assets.

Generally, slowing economic conditions show that the financial wizards playing fast and loose with the numbers, were counting on the 'average' American to be able to pay off the debts, cars, homes, credit cards, while living from pay check to pay check, or from credit card payment to credit card payment.

The average consumer that was just making it, can't continue to sustain the economy while being flogged with the most offensive tax, inflation.

………… parent

So ...

It isn't the rich who are the problem, it is now the "uber rich".  And we're no longer talking about average consumers, but rather about "average consumers that was just making it".

Interesting how things change from one post to the next ... 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

………… parent

Average consumers

are turning into average consumers that are just making it.

Even the 'rich' becoming more average, as they are suffering from this foreclosure mess, because some, not all, got suckered into the home equity credit game.

Even you with all your sophistic twisting back handsprings, have to deal with the cruelest consumer tax, inflation.

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The problem of inflation is easily solved ...

simply cut eveyone's income in half and prices will fall.  The moral of the story?  Inflation is not a tax, it is a self-imposed evil born of the common man's greed.

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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………… parent

That must be why the price of oil is so high

The evil born of the common man running the greedy oil companies who use the military to privatize profits, while socializing the costs.

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LOL Stinerman

The only analog to real people is to kill oneself, not exactly a real choice.

Very descriptive.

………… parent

On the one hand ...

You seem to be agreing with Rush Limbaugh when he makes the observation that Democrats promote screwups and failures. The worse you fail the higher you go, just like Barney.


But on the other hand ...

You seem to be taking a tack similar to the one used against Dick Cheney and his Energy Task Force :

Although Sen. Obama voted for the legislation, he has spoken as if he opposed it on the campaign trail, criticizing it repeatedly. At a presidential debate he said "You can look at how Dick Cheney did his energy policy…he met with oil and gas companies forty times, and that's how they put together our energy policy." He's attributed the failure of our current energy policy to Congress's "failure to stand up to the lobbyists."

What an incredibly moronic thing to do, right? You want to define a coherent energy policy for the country so you actually go out and talk to those people who are the experts in the field of providing energy. Whoa, WTF were they thinking?

Contrast this to your position above:

I just want to add, as I bring these remarks to a close, Mr. Speaker, and I enjoyed working with the crook from California (Mr. Gary G. Miller), that I want to pay tribute to a couple of organizations that have bought their way into the legislative process to further the narrow self interests of their dues-paying membership. I found the National Association of Home Builders has been very generous to my campaigns in the past to the tune of $35,500. The National Association of Realtors has also ponied up $62,000 to my past campaigns , so I let them shape public policies that will keep the commission checks flowing to Realtors.

You are basically complaing that when Barney Frank was interested in reviewing and revising the policies related to home ownership that he actually went out and talked to the experts in the fields related to what? Home ownership. OMFG, what the hell was this moron thinking? Talking to home builders and realtors about how to promote home ownership?  WTF do they no about that?  Effing idiot.

So, skymutt, since you seem to think that talking to home builders and realtors about how to promote home ownership is about as bright as selling snake mittens, just who would you have preferred that he consult with?

 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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…………

Meh

You seem to be agreing with Rush Limbaugh when he makes the observation
that Democrats promote screwups and failures. The worse you fail the
higher you go, just like Barney.

There is some truth to this... although I don't know if I'd put Frank into the same category as the inept Silvestre Reyes or the corrupt John Murtha in terms of bad choices for positions of power on the Democratic side. What Limbaugh and his ilk never mention is that the Republicans put corrupt people like Tom Delay, Jerry Lewis and Don Young powerful positions when they had the majority. So are the R's any better? Highly doubtful.

What an incredibly moronic thing to do, right? You want to define a
coherent energy policy for the country so you actually go out and talk
to those people who are the experts in the field of providing energy.
Whoa, WTF were they thinking?

Strawman. I never said nor implied that legislators should not talk to business interests.

The problem, of course, is when you formulate policy by taking into account only one side of the issue. The point of view of business is rarely the only point of view on an issue.

You are basically complaing that when Barney Frank was interested in
reviewing and revising the policies related to home ownership that he
actually went out and talked to the experts in the fields related to
what? Home ownership. OMFG, what the hell was this moron thinking?
Talking to home builders and realtors about how to promote home
ownership? WTF do they no about that? Effing idiot.

Again, this is a distortion of what I am saying. (I will stop short of calling you deliberately obtuse in the interest of site civility) Nowhere have I ever said or implied that the opinion of business interests should not be considered at all.

But in this case, as I illustrated, it appears that Barney Frank had totally dismissed the opinions of those who were warning of a housing bubble, while embracing the "there's no housing bubble" position of the paid lobbyists from the NAR and so forth. The lobbying groups who he was listening to were among his largest campaign contributors, while the opposing point of view was not a moneyed interest. I can't prove that Frank's judgment was swayed by the tens of thousands of dollars of campaign contributions; all I can do is present the facts, which are that Frank sided with his big money campaign contributors when they were dead wrong on housing.

So, skymutt, since you seem to think that talking to home builders and
realtors about how to promote home ownership is about as bright as
selling snake mittens, just who would you have preferred that he
consult with?

As I have said before, this is a strawman argument. I have never argued that there should be no talking to the NAR or the NAHB when formulating housing policy. But it should be recognized that these groups have a particular agenda, and that the point of view you hear from these groups will favor that agenda. So you can't just listen to people like NAR chief economist David Lereah and expect that you're going to hear anything more than the most optimistic view on housing. For balance, you'd need to listen to people like Morgan Stanley economist Stephen Roach , who would have given a much bleaker assessment of the housing industry in 2005.

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How the story changes after you are pressed on it ...

Strawman. I never said nor implied that legislators should not talk to business interests.

Really? Because that is exactly what this re-write of Frank's original statement implies to me:

Working with crooks? Business interests buying their way into the legislative process? Business interests shaping (writing?) the public policies to their own benefits?

So when you wrote this you were actually telling people that it was OK for Frank to talk with all of these people but that he just should have also talked to others? (Which, ironically, you already admit that he did since he was addressing their concerns in his speech, right?)

Again, this is a distortion of what I am saying. (I will stop short of calling you deliberately obtuse in the interest of site civility) Nowhere have I ever said or implied that the opinion of business interests should not be considered at all.

Yes you did, I just showed you that you did. You basically said that Frank was either a gullible fool or a corrupt player by taking money from people who are the experts in the field that he was discussing. I honestly don't see how you can deny that this is what your statement implies.

I can't prove that Frank's judgment was swayed by the tens of thousands of dollars of campaign contributions; all I can do is present the facts, which are that Frank sided with his big money campaign contributors when they were dead wrong on housing.

And thereby you imply what you admit you cannot prove. Classic. This is basically saying that you did exactly what I said you did. Geeze. In other words, he SHOULDN'T have sided with his big money campaign contributors (i.e. the very business interests that we are discussing). If your point ISN'T that Frank SHOULDN'T have listened to or considered these people's opinions then what exactly IS your point in this respect? If he didn't do anything wrong why did you write this piece and why are you raking him over the coals from so many angles in this respect?

You are basically saying that if you ever talk to someone who has a monetary interest in something that you can't listen to their opinion when shaping public policy. But since anyone who is an expert in a given field most likely also has at least some monetary interest connected to that field (i.e. like they make their livelyhoods in that field) you are, in effect, saying that we should not be listening to experts in any given field because their opinions and advice are inherently tainted.

This is exactly the same thing as Cheney and the energy companies shaping energy policy. The experts are the people who make their living providing energy to the world, but because that is how they make their living we shouldn't have listened to them.

As I have said before, this is a strawman argument. I have never argued that there should be no talking to the NAR or the NAHB when formulating housing policy.

And as I have just illustrated this is not true. Show me where you ever indicated that it would be appropriate to talk with them? You only denigrated everything associated with them by calling them crook, liars, and charging that they were only looking after their own self interests. That's what you said so don't try to claim otherwise now.

So you can't just listen to people like NAR chief economist David Lereah and expect that you're going to hear anything more than the most optimistic view on housing. For balance, you'd need to listen to people like Morgan Stanley economist Stephen Roach , who would have given a much bleaker assessment of the housing industry in 2005.

Well, here's the really ironic part of all this. As you note in your piece above, Frank DID listen to the naysayers at the time. He heard what they had to say and he apparantly consciously rejected it for whatever reason. Right? He actually did know that some people were claiming there was a bubble so you can't say that he didn't listen to them in the sense that he hadn't even heard what they had to say.

Given this, you seem to be complaining not that he didn't listen to the opposing voices but rather that he rejected them. So, in effect, Frank did exactly what you now claim to profess would be the correct course of action (i.e. to have talked to both the business side and the naysayer side of the issue) and then made a decision based on what he had heard and shaped policy accordingly.

So where's the beef? It now seems to be that you, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, simply don't feel that he made the proper call at the time, is that it?

There is one additional irony here, in a meta sense, I am defending Barney Frank against you, a liberal. :)

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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Irony indeed

There is one additional irony here, in a meta sense, I am defending Barney Frank against you, a liberal. :)

Especially ironic considering you are defending a liberal when that liberal was indisputably wrong, when 1. He claimed that there was no housing bubble when I don't think that anyone including yourself would deny that there indeed was a housing bubble in 2005; and 2. He said we would not see a "collapse" in housing, and it turns out we've seen a collapse of historic proportions in housing with perhaps more declines yet to come.

Working with crooks?

The crook was a fellow Congressman, not a member of the lobbying groups.

Business interests buying their way into the
legislative process? Business interests shaping (writing?) the public
policies to their own benefits?

So when you wrote this you were actually telling people that it was
OK for Frank to talk with all of these people but that he just should
have also talked to others? (Which, ironically, you already admit that
he did since he was addressing their concerns in his speech, right?)

Sure, it's okay for legislators to talk to these special interest groups. Letting these interest groups craft policy in a virtually unfettered fashion is an entirely different matter. And taking money from interests groups and then siding with them when they are dead wrong just plain looks bad. I never outright called Frank corrupt, by the way. I just report the facts, you decide :-)

In other words, he SHOULDN'T have sided with his big money
campaign contributors (i.e. the very business interests that we are
discussing). If your point ISN'T that Frank SHOULDN'T have listened to
or considered these people's opinions then what exactly IS your point
in this respect? If he didn't do anything wrong why did you write this
piece and why are you raking him over the coals from so many angles in
this respect?

Well, first off, Frank was indisputably wrong in his analysis of housing in 2005, so to say that he didn't "do anything wrong" and therefore there's no point to the diary is kind of silly; he WAS wrong, which is reason enough to examine the circumstances to try and determine WHY he was wrong. 

As far as your assertion that he didn't do anything wrong, I simply report, you decide :-) Funny though how you can see conflict of interest in Diane Feinstein's case, but Barney Frank was just shooting the breeze with the NAR and the NAHB, perfectly innocent, even though they were 2 of his top 3 campaign contributors.

Well, here's the really ironic part of all this. As you note in your
piece above, Frank DID listen to the naysayers at the time. He heard
what they had to say and he apparantly consciously rejected it for
whatever reason. Right? He actually did know that some people were
claiming there was a bubble so you can't say that he didn't listen to
them in the sense that he hadn't even heard what they had to say.

Weak tea. My dad was aware that I didn't like to do the dishes or mow the grass, but he didn't listen to me with an open mind when I whined about my chores. Awareness of a point of view does not equate to a willingness to listen to a point of view with an open mind.

Given this, you seem to be complaining not that he didn't listen to the opposing voices but rather that he rejected them.
So, in effect, Frank did exactly what you now claim to profess would be
the correct course of action (i.e. to have talked to both the business
side and the naysayer side of the issue) and then made a decision based
on what he had heard and shaped policy accordingly.

Not exactly... Frank spoke of an "excessive degree of concern" over a possible housing bubble. By doing so, Frank was essentially shutting the door on many "experts in the field" who were warning of a housing bubble. This is a strong indication that Frank, if he had ever had an open mind regarding the housing bubble, had closed his mind at some point in time prior to this when the bubble argument became "excessive" to him, or perhaps when his paymaster lobbyists told him to close his mind, I don't know, I just report the facts :-)

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Especially ironic

Especially ironic considering you are defending a liberal when that
liberal was indisputably wrong, when 1. He claimed that there was no
housing bubble when I don't think that anyone including yourself would
deny that there indeed was a housing bubble in 2005; and 2. He said we
would not see a "collapse" in housing, and it turns out we've seen a
collapse of historic proportions in housing with perhaps more declines
yet to come.

But only in a 20/20 hindsight sort of way, and that is the crux of my complaint here. It is one thing to position something like this as "look, we screwed up so let's look back and try to do better next time," but quite another to take the position "look, we [now] know there was a housing bubble in 2005 so the fact that Barney Frank didn't believe there was a housing bubble [back then] must mean that he was corrupt and closed minded."

The former makes sense whereas the latter is totally bogus on so many fronts. I interpreted your piece to be the latter, ergo I am here arguing with you.

This is exactly the same complaint I have with your side of the aisle on the WMDs in Iraq. Sure, we [think we] know there were no WMDs NOW but BACK THEN all we had was the intelligence data. To use things that we know NOW to second guess some one's decisions BACK THEN is a totally bogus thing to do, IMHO. You are expecting them to have been clairvoyant, which is silly even for liberals! :)

Letting these interest groups craft policy in a virtually unfettered
fashion is an entirely different matter. And taking money from
interests groups and then siding with them when they are dead wrong
just plain looks bad.

And you know this is what happened how? Barney Frank was supposed to know that the naysayers would ultimately be correct how BACK THEN? You know that he didn't listen in earnest to both sides and simply rejected the naysayers only after coreful reflection how?

Even Barney Frank is allowed to make mistakes. To call him corrupt, which you essentially did, based on 20/20 hindsight and nothing more is bogus.

Well, first off, Frank was indisputably wrong in his analysis of
housing in 2005, so to say that he didn't "do anything wrong" and
therefore there's no point to the diary is kind of silly; he WAS wrong,
which is reason enough to examine the circumstances to try and
determine WHY he was wrong.

Again, only in a 20/20 hindsight sort of way. I have no problem with a restrospective that seeks to look at the decisions that were made, how they were made, and develop proceses to avoid making them in the future. That is NOT what this diary is. If THAT was your intent with this diary, then with all due respect it has failed ... mainly due to all of the pointy sticks.

As far as your assertion that he didn't do anything wrong, I simply
report, you decide :-) Funny though how you can see conflict of
interest in Diane Feinstein's case, but Barney Frank was just shooting
the breeze with the NAR and the NAHB, perfectly innocent, even though
they were 2 of his top 3 campaign contributors.

Well, here's the thing. Holding clandestine meetings for the purpose of covering up your illegal funneling of federal money into your own pockets is, well, illegal. Accepting political donations from people whose advice you have sought out is not. That's the primary distinction between the two in my mind. :)

Weak tea. My dad was aware that I didn't like to do the dishes or mow
the grass, but he didn't listen to me with an open mind when I whined
about my chores. Awareness of a point of view does not equate to a
willingness to listen to a point of view with an open mind.

And you know that he, for a fact, did NOT listen to both sides with an open mind at the time and simply rejected the naysayer's position prior to making his speech? How do you know such a thing?

Isn't it interesting how I am applying the same logic and principles to Barney Frank as I do to Bush43? Hmmm, I guess that means that you are too ... damn. :)

Not exactly... Frank spoke of an "excessive degree of concern" over a
possible housing bubble. By doing so, Frank was essentially shutting
the door on many "experts in the field" who were warning of a housing
bubble. This is a strong indication that Frank, if he had ever had an
open mind regarding the housing bubble, had closed his mind at some
point in time prior to this when the bubble argument became "excessive"
to him ...

I agree that his terminology suggests that he had already made up his mind by the time he made the speech, but that doesn't imply that he hadn't carefully considered both sides prior to the speech as you admit above. So, again, you know that he never listened to both sides how?

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
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………… parent

I am consistent-- I will take that as a compliment :-)

Even Barney Frank is allowed to make mistakes. To call him corrupt,
which you essentially did, based on 20/20 hindsight and nothing more is
bogus.

 I didn't call Barney Frank corrupt.  It is you, having evidently seen a conflict of interest in Frank's taking a hundred grand in campaign contributions from the NAHB and the NAR and then evidently letting them have the featured seat at the table when it came time to craft housing policy, who is apparently a little bit sensitive about the appearance of impropriety.

Isn't it interesting how I am applying the same logic and principles to
Barney Frank as I do to Bush43? Hmmm, I guess that means that you are
too ... damn. :)

Yeah, I am consistent... when someone is horribly wrong for no good reason, like Bush on WMD and Frank on the housing bubble, I don't cut much slack :-)  You, on the other hand, like to pretend that nobody could have possibly known better at the time, which is incorrect, considering that people did know better in both cases.  With you, it's all "hindsight", which it is I suppose when you don't listen to the critics.

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Well then ...

I didn't call Barney Frank corrupt.

By this same exact logic you must also agree, then, that Bush never said Iraq attacked us on 9/11, right? The two cases are completely paralleled.

You, on the other hand, like to pretend that nobody could have possibly
known better at the time, which is incorrect, considering that people
did know better in both cases.

You are completely missing the point. I am not saying that people couldn't possibly have known better at the time ... I am saying that you can't claim that they should have known better at the time based on information which was NOT available at that time. The latter would require them to be clairvoyant, which is silly.

So, for example, we NOW know that there was a housing bubble in 2005 but we didn't KNOW that at the time.  We only had people PREDICTING that was the case.  Predicting something and knowing it are two separate things, and you can't blame someone for rejecting the prognostications AT THAT TIME based solely on the fact that they turned out to be true AS WE KNOW NOW. 

I'm the Bugs Bunny of Swords Crossed!
-4 Strongly Disagree - 0 Meh - Strongly Agree +4

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Sure you can

...you can't blame someone for rejecting the prognostications AT THAT TIME
based solely on the fact that they turned out to be true AS WE KNOW NOW.

Why not? They were wrong. I suppose "blame" is a bit harsh, but certainly they can be held accountable for making an incorrect decision. If it doesn't happen often, then no big deal. If we start seeing a pattern of incorrect decisions, though, then clearly there is a problem.

We are the environment. There is no distinction. What we do to the earth we do to ourselves. —David Suzuki

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Mortgage Bust Goes Global/Why a Bank is Not a Casino

Or how the US turned banks into Casinos

United Bank of Switzerland the old lady of thrift has some angry shareholders.

"t. More than 6,000 shareholders of the Swiss banking giant UBS packed the house to vent their fury over tens of billions in losses on American subprime mortgages and what they saw as an insult to traditional Swiss values like prudence and thrift."

The comments from the shareholders are tragically amusing.

...declared one middle-aged shareholder, Therese Klemenz. “UBS was the figurehead of Swiss business. As a good housewife, I know you shouldn’t put all your eggs in one basket. A bank is not a casino.

What happened here is a scandal,” he thundered. “You’re responsible for the biggest loss in the history of the Swiss economy. Put an end to the Americanization of the Swiss economy!”

It's just like the steroid scandal....... the managers and risk takers all knew it was wrong, but everyone was doing it and it seemed the only way to stay on the cutting edge..... over-extended and hidden leverages.

How much longer will banks discover they have to write off billions due to bundled sub-prime loans leveraged at crazy levels all around the world!

I imagine this is why Paulson gave his speech last week. He wants the world to know the US will stop cheating the markets. Too little, too late.

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conservatism and bureaucracy

Interesting comment from inside the article:

“UBS’s reputation was conservatism, and bureaucracy goes hand in hand with that,”

While bureaucracy offers a buffer against ill-considered investment and trading strategies, once those decisions are set in motion it can cause a bank to be less dexterous when markets turn in unforeseen and unpredictable directions. UBS is Exhibit A for both sides of that divide.

I have never associated conservatism with bureaucracy before, but it's an interesting thought.

You would think that conservatives want to "Do It Slower".

I see a bumper sticker slogan in there somewhere.

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