Why aren't More People Going to College?

Tyler Cowen cites and comments on on an interesting post by Brad DeLong .

Having reading a study about education, market inequality and the question, "why more people don't go to college?", by Altonji, Bharadwaj, and Lange, Brad Delong concludes:

Altonji, Bharadwaj, and Lange do not know.

DeLong, a liberal Democrat, goes to criticize the prescription of making higher education free for all as a means bringing up skill levels to close the inequality gap as a "dubious policy" because it will basically transfer taxes from the average worker of today to the better educated and wealthier of tomorrow.

Now I'm not sure how further DeLong, is willing to go with his criticism but I see another problem as well:

Such a policy robs much of the value and investment in going to college. It also makes those who perhaps do not have the aptitude or real use for going to college less discriminating and conscientious in their post-secondary paths. And in doing so, colleges are then inundated with lackluster students who will wind up cheapening and diluting the end product and experience for those whose time would be well spent at a university...in much the same way such policies do in high schools.

The massive increase in demand for post-secondary education would at the same time make it greatly more expensive in absolute terms as well as on the tax payer while lowering the quality and value of it at the same time.

Cowen adds another wrinkle, which looks at the basic question of why more people, at present and given the grants, federal loans available along with the availability of lower price colleges, don't go to college. And this goes directly onto the would-be students themselves.

Says Cowen:

I can only conclude that Altonji, Bharadwaj, and Lange have never taught Introduction to Composition to a large group of freshman in a public university in the United States. Anyone who has taught such a class -- or for that matter talked to anyone who has -- will have some inkling why more people are not going to college. Herein lie the roots of growing inequality -- on the bottom side at least -- and don't let anyone induce you to take your eye off the ball by playing switcheroo and bringing up the (separate) topic of the growing wealth of the top one percent.

So perhaps the real answer to the question of why more people don't go to college can be found in society or our "free" public school system rather than the wallets of would-be college students.

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musing on college education

Charles Murray had some interesting comments in What's Wrong With Vocational School ? In general, I agree with his assertion that a minority of American high-school students are prepared for a four-year program focused on developing their "advanced analytic skills".

One way or another, they just don't have what it takes. Either they just aren't smart enough, or they don't have the motivation, or they don't have the preparation. This becomes a substantial problem when large swarths of our society have developed the perception that American kids should go to college straight out of high-school. In high school, I knew a number of kids who didn't really want to continue at school (and consequently wasted much of their tuition money and time), but had a sense that they needed to get that degree. Likewise, I met more  of this type of kid at college, even though it was a rather selective school. As a college instructor, I've seen a number of kids who pretty obviously didn't want to be in my class; consequently, I hated teaching them.

From these experiences, I'm strongly opposed to the idea that everyone should be enabled to attend a four-year college. I'd greatly prefer to expand our system of Community Colleges and Vocational Schools.

The big message here is that our Bachelor's degree system is pretty good as it is...we don't need to expand it. We may want to refine it a bit (I'd favor increased admission standards at public universities and increasing merit-based financial aid), but attempts to improve education in America should really focus on the lower levels.

 

P.S. REad the math panel report

In my expert opinion, you should do what I tell you to do.

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excellent comments.

I have little to add.

Actually, I have nothing to add.

:)

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When I graduated from high school in the late 1960's,

being female definitely had its advantages; a girl could take a year off before deciding what to do with her life, and not have to worry about being drafted into the Army and shipped off to Indo-China to either kill or be killed.

Boys, on the other hand, had less of a choice back then; it was either go to college straight out of high school or be drafted, and get shipped off to Southeast Asia to kill or be killed.

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I'm with John

The only thing I'd add is that our secondary schools should, for the lack of a better term, weed out the people who don't want to learn and the people who aren't planning on a 4-year degree. In my high school, college prep curricula didn't start in earnest until my junior year. Partly due to what I would assume was poor funding, partly due to the fact that we were a rural/industrial small town, and partly due to the idea that we can't start segregating kids until we're sure they aren't college material.

It's not politically or socially acceptable to say this, but not everyone has the "book learnin'" skills needed to go to college and succeed. Some people are going to be losers in every sense of the word and some people can't do much better than a factory job. We really ought to increase our funding of 2-year colleges and trade schools.

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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I'm glad you spelled that out. Agreed.

I thought it would seem harsh to say that but it is the right thing to do.

Personally, I don't think it's a matter of having to weed out. I think it's simply a matter of removing the compulsion and giving people with different plans in life better and more suitable choices.

Honestly, ask yourself this question...not just stinerman but anyone:

Why should ambitious students with college and careers in high power careers in mind and less ambitious students with no idea on careers or no serious plans be forced to go to the same high school...simply because they live in the same town?

Furthermore, why do we assume that the system we have in place...never mind the amount of funding...is the best way to handle this?

Granted, I too used to think it was "the only fair way" but I've come to realize that it simply is not. Besides, what's so fair about it?

On the one hand, ambitious students, especially in urban public schools, are robbed of a better education and/or their parents are forced to pay an arm and a leg for private school while funding public schools.

On the other hand, less ambitious students are forced into a curriculum that doesn't prepare them for anything useful while wasting valuable years drudging around in a system that simply doesn't suite them.

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Parse error

Why should ambitious students with college and careers in high power careers in mind and less ambitious students with no idea on careers or no serious plans

I think I know what you're saying, but i reread that phrase several times. :-)

I never broke the law; I am the law! -- George W. Bush Judge Dredd
I'm listening to...

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A lot of kids are scared of

A lot of kids are scared of paying back loans i know so many who just graduated and are freaking out about how long it'll take them to pay their loans back. They got a degree now there's no jobs for them in their fields, they would have been better off getting fake degrees then not worrying about paying a loan back and still getting the same job whenever it became available.

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What, no jobs for someone with a BA in...

...inner city storytelling, or a major in graffiti, or the hip hop culture?

In all seriousness, there are jobs out there. Lots of them. But they are for people who have skills that are applicable to something. To many universities today offer bogus majors and lame duck degrees in the unthinkable.

I am an active alumni of my alma mater, and as such work with prospective students, and those entering the real world. I see very few graduates with mainstream majors who have much difficulty getting good jobs, even now.

In addition, unlike what Mr. Obama would like you to think, there is merit and value in paying for something you earn. Be happy you have the same opportunity Barry did, to work hard in school and excel regardless of the economics at home. Get a good job continue to work hard and the student loans will take care of themselves, if you know what I mean.

BTW, I've not seen you before, so if you are new here, welcome, and keep coming back! ;-)

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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I agree...

On the one hand, ambitious students, especially in urban public schools, are robbed of a better education and/or their parents are forced to pay an arm and a leg for private school...

Not if the kid is 6'5" with good outside touch, then its a scholarship and a spot on the b-ball team.

Some kids are just better off at vocational schools, some people have great technical skills and aren't good at "high skill" jobs.

In a related topic: I hate the term "unskilled"

In our society, people are rewarded for pretending to be certain about things they're clearly not certain about. -- Sam Harris,

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Now couple that thought with

this .

The high school graduation rate is a barometer of the health of American society and the skill level of its future workforce. Throughout the first half of the twentieth century, each new cohort of Americans was more likely to graduate from high school than the preceding one. This upward trend in secondary education increased worker productivity and fueled American economic growth .[1]

In the past 25 years, growing wage differentials between high school graduates and dropouts increased the economic incentives for high school graduation. The real wages of high school dropouts have declined since the early 1970s while those of more skilled workers have risen sharply.

I can't help but get the sneaking suspicion that they are missing the point in way by focusing on the "graduation rate" rather than the realties that lie beneath.

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There are guys around my neighborhood...

...who may or may not have graduated high school, but certainly weren't at the top of the class, and never sat thru any lectures after that if you get my drift...and they have way cooler toys, take way better vacations, and drive way more bitch'in cars than I do...

My point is I am not a believer in this everyone must gratuate HS or go to college BS. I think there are different pegs for different holes, some kids don't dig academics, but can weld an awesome bead, and it is a shame to shame kids who aren't cut out for it for not going. You can be plenty successful in America without going to college.

That being said, my concern would be can we get these kids far enough along so they can think somewhat critically, so they can go out in the world and impress people at least to the degree that they can sell what they're selling, themselves, a product, or what have you...

That's the deal breaker for young people today, if they can't articulate themselves, or comprehend well enough what's written or being told to them, they're doomed.

If they can do those things, and maybe a little more, and they have a trade, they're golden.

It matters not if they know what the most obscure literary reference you can think of is.

 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Unions, School Choice and Education

A pertinent post by Megan McArdle .

I do not object to the teacher's unions because they have a union. I object to the teacher's unions because teachers are among the competing interests that run low-income school districts for the benefit of the various interest groups, rather than the children....

I do not say that they are malicious, though certainly in many cases the union clearly recognizes that they are benefiting their members at the expense of the children. But more of it is that the entrenched institutional arrangements, many of them enshrined in union contracts, are extraordinarily impervious to change. When an entire system has grown up around union arrangements, tweaking any substantial part of it threatens to throw the whole system into disarray.

Unions also give teachers power to resist changes that make their jobs less fun. I think the teachers genuinely believe that these changes are bad; but I also think that they strenuously resist learning anything to the contrary. There is really good evidence for the benefits of direct instruction in teaching disadvantaged children. But direct instruction moves the teacher into being more of a technician and less of a creative professional.

But it's more than that. In New York, the principal's union resisted an attempt to attract the system's top principals to failing schools by giving them a substantial bonus payment in the tens of thousands of dollars. The union vetoed this because the extra pay wouldn't accrue pension. Huh? It was entirely voluntary, the system couldn't afford pension payments, and the principals would have gotten an extra $25 grand or so. But no dice. Any change threatens the union, because it puts the delicate balance of power between all the competing interest groups in play.

Liberals rejoinder that it isn't the unions--it's the funding/poor kids/infrastructure/class size/textbooks. This sort of thing is hard to disprove conclusively, of course. But here's a data point: New Orleans smashes it's teachers union; test scores rise dramatically, even though it's still ministering to poor kids testing substantially below grade level.

That's quite a bit to chew on and I agree with her.

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Interesting post.

I wonder about the causality for that last data point.  Did teachers suddenly start to shape up out of fear for their jobs?  Did the likely massive beaurocratic upheaval at the board and district level give them a sense of freedom to teach what and how they wanted?  Did the bad ones simply decide not to return to teaching after Katrina (not sure when the union was busted up)?

I would like to add some thoughts to the problems facing the educational system.

1. Teachers are overworked and underpaid.  They have little time or incentive to  work on improving their methods.  The few training sessions they do attend tend to be wastes of time based on generalities.

2. The level of education required to be certified to teach at any level is disproportionately high compared to teachers' level of income.  There are perks like summer vacations and better job security compared to say, waitrissing, but I believe the "labor of love" aspect is what keeps salaries down.  Teaching, like many health professions such as nursing, is generally regarded as noble, rewarding work.

3. Education is seen as a "soft" major at every university I know of.  Educational courses are simply not that demanding, either in terms of complexity or workload.  Combine that with good employment prospects and the societal perception of a worthy career, and you can many disinterested or otherwise marginally competent people becoming teachers.  (I know there are probably teachers posting in this thread.  If so, my observation is not addressed to you, simply because you at least care enough to blog about it.  And both my parents are teachers, which is even better than having black friends!).

So, we have a demanding, highly stressful, underpaid profession that tends to attract underachievers.  It's no wonder teachers want to form unions.  It's no wonder these unions want to keep things as rigid and uniform as possible; they have a lot of semi-competent members to protect and the good ones are too busy to deal with union matters anyway.

My ideas:

1. More merit pay for teachers, but adjusted to supply/demand for teaching certain subjects and the importance to student development .  A fifth-grader's career path will survive having a mean art teacher.  But a ninth grader who never gets the hang of algebra because the math teacher stopped caring will effectively be shut out of most scientific disciplines.  If it were added as a supplement (teachers being currently underpaid) to the current negociated contracts maybe the unions would bite.

2. Make educational degrees much more demanding.  There are plenty of other bird majors, but none that lead directly to a professional career that I can think of.  Occupational therapy, accounting and engineering (to name a few) are all far more demanding.  Make sure teachers actually can "do" before they teach.

3. Make sure academic institutions are much more vigilent in hiring and evaluating teachers.  There are ways of getting rid of the bad ones, unionized or not, but they usually involve several procedural steps, warnings, opportunities for remediation and counseling that too many schools don't bother with.  So they get stuck with the bad teachers mailing it in, harming the students' career prospects and depressing morale for the good teachers.  Managerial laziness can be as big a problem as inflexible unions and bad teachers.

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Obama continues his march towards a socialized America...

In an address on the economy to be delivered this morning in suburban Virginia, President-elect Obama warns that the economy “could become dramatically worse” and the nation could face unemployment above 10 percent without bipartisan support for his $750-billion stimulus plan.

Using his signature word “change” twice in brief excerpts released by his aides, Obama calls for "a new course for this economy" and declares:

"Only government can break the vicious cycles that are crippling our economy.”
 

Underlying all arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. ~M. Friedman

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Well you have places like the

Well you have places like the university of phoenix that offer degrees online and open to a lot more people then just students looking to go to college. Also the cost is less then going to a college.

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